WBCA Podcasts

Discovering The Law

On this edition of Discovering The Law, host Lucy Rivera invites guests Jill Seeker (Co-Founder & Executive Dir., Mabel) & Daniel Santiago (Co-Founder & Immigration Attorney, Mabel) to discuss Mabel Center for Immigrant Justice & the services it provides, immigration law, immigration court, asylum cases & requirements, temporary protected status, & more!

Duration:: 23m
Broadcast on:: 06 Aug 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

(upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Welcome to Discovering the Law. An educational program for all audiences interested in learning about the law. My name is attorney Lucy Rivera and I am your host today. Today we have a very special program geared towards learning about immigration specifically from an agency called Mabel. And today with us, we have the co-founders of Mabel, attorney Jill Siever, executive director, and attorney Daniel Santiago, also co-founders, co-founders of Mabel and both attorneys of Mabel. Welcome to our program. - Thank you for having us. - Jill and Daniel, please tell us a little bit about Mabel. - Sure, so we formed Mabel Center for Immigrant Justice in 2000, during the pandemic, which isn't the greatest time. But we formed the organization and we serve mostly asylum seekers, but we also serve special like minors, unaccompanied minors, some TPS, but mostly most of our clients are in immigration court and are trying to make their case. - Very interesting. Speaking about immigration court, can you tell us a little bit about what immigration court is and how it's organized? - Yeah, so immigration court is, and it's named court, but it's an agency inside the Department of Justice for the Federal Government. So they have judges that decide the cases that we see, like asylum, and other type of cases as well. But it feels very much like a court, and this takes a very high full of clients. - And I understand that Mabel focuses on asylum cases. Speaking of asylum, what is asylum? I know there are elements. What are those, please? - Sure, so to make an asylum case, an individual has to show that they have a reasonable, well-founded fear of persecution in their home country if they were to return, and that that fear is reasonable both objectively and subjectively, and that the government's unwilling and able to protect them, and that the fear is based on persecution related to a protected ground, and that's where it can be a little trickier. So race, religion, political opinion, are some of the grounds for asylum. And speaking of those elements, would that be what qualifies someone to seek asylum? - So they have the burden, their client has the burden of proof, and also their lawyers. We have the burden of proof of showing that what the harm that they suffered was on account of the protected ground. So we have to provide their testimony, evidence, extra reports, country condition reports, sometimes medical evidence about all the harm that they suffered, and the country conditions that they were facing where they were at home. - And that can, oh, sorry. No, I was just gonna say one of the trickiest parts is to show that the harm, you're kind of asking them to get into the mind of the persecutor, and showing that you were harmed, and it is tied to the political opinion you hold, or some other protected ground. - And that's extremely important. That is one of the issues that we discussed, the evidence. How, if these people come from other countries, how do you produce this evidence about asylum for persecution, for example? - So it all starts with their testimony and their story. And then we work with them to gather any other documents that can support their claim. For example, Affy David's from home country, if they have some sort of medical evidence that we can provide medical evaluations as well. So it takes a lot of time working with the clients to gather all the evidence, because, again, we have the burden on proof in the case. - And some police reports and things like that from home country? - And once you're an immigration court, and the people are in this country looking for asylum, who adjudicates the asylum cases? - So in immigration court, there's an immigration judge that the judge hears all the evidence. We are representing the clients, but there's also a DHS attorney that is asking questions to the client about why they should not get asylum in the US. What ultimately is the immigration judge of the sides? And then if it goes favor the case ends there, if not, there's other stages like the BIA, and then even the federal court can weigh in, and there's some other issues in the case. - So let's work back DHS agent and VIA. For our audience, would you tell us a little bit about that? - DHS Department of Homeland Security. So those lawyers basically act as prosecutors, and then the BIA is just a Bureau of Immigration, Appeals, so just another office inside the Department of Justice. - And one thing that's a little bit different about immigration court that people seem surprised to learn, is that they're not given an attorney. So a lot of times clients are forced to represent themselves without any legal counsel, even though the government has a DHS attorney arguing against their case. - That's a very interesting point, and this is where Mabel comes in, because you are attorneys that represent your client on a pro bono basis. I do want to discuss that. Let's talk about that a little further ahead, but that's where your services are key in this representation. You also said that there is a like a deadline, or there are a certain number of years that the people seeking asylum have. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? - The deadline. - Sure, so when an asylum seeker enters the US, they have one year from the date that they set foot on US soil. And so that can be a point of confusion. A lot of people think it's one year from when they arrived in Boston, or some other kind of way to measure it. And so a lot of times when somebody's moving and they're new and they don't speak the language and they're trying to get kids in school, a lot of times we have people come to us that are bumping up against that one year deadline. And so we try to help people, even if we can't represent them all the way in court, to at least help them get that application in on time so that they preserve their claim. - That's very interesting and excellent information. Now you also said that Mabel discusses, or takes cases on temporary protective status, TPS. Would you please tell us what that is? - So TPS is people that are granted TPS, is an immigration status, and that allows the clients to stay in the country, usually for a period of 18 months, but that's subject for renewal every 18 months as well. So for example, we're right now, we're dealing with people that are coming from Haiti, but in the US there's the first TPS. After the earthquake in 2010, there was a TPS because the country was destroyed by the earthquake, unfortunately. So now there's people still with that same TPS, 24 years later. So it's temporary, but it gets extended every 18 months. Sometimes it does end, but usually you have to show that the country, that they designate is back to normal. - For example, like you said, for people that suffered from an earthquake, but once that circumstances come back to normal, the temporary protective status end. - So the government needs to notify the immigrants, well, we're ending TPS as a disease state. So there's a commentary period, and people weigh in on the decision, and then they will decide yes or no. But usually not all the countries get back to where they can take out away the TPS. - Is there a certain, like in asylum, a year deadline or some sort of limitation? - So there are very strict guidelines for TPS. So whenever they issue a grant of TPS, they say, well, everybody of this nationality that was in the country three months ago can apply for TPS, I'm gonna qualify, and they need to show that. Somebody just got here, and they have all the documents, necessarily, but they were not here, so they won't qualify. And of course, they need to show that they're a citizen of that country, and then there's no other place that it could go other than that country or the US. - And the other aspect that you mentioned that Mabel also takes care of are young people, juveniles, special investigations. If you can tell us a little bit about that, about what does that mean, and what is that all about? - Sure, so it's special, immigrant juvenile status, so we refer to it a lot as SIDGE, and that's for minors, and that can be affected by state law, but the adjudicating body and immigration law says 21 and under. And so first you have to get a judgment in state court, and they have to show that they've been abused, abandoned, or neglected by one or more parents. And so oftentimes, a lot of our clients are coming from Central America or other countries, and they travel here alone, they're unaccompanied, and this is a way in which they can receive status that puts them on the path to a green card and citizenship. - That is a great service that you provide for these children or minors. Now you said that they have to get a judgment from state court. Tell us a little bit about that. - So they have to go before family and probate, and there's, I don't wanna get super technical into it, but they receive a special findings that show that they have been affirmed, that they've been abused, abandoned, or neglected, and then the judge issues, the special findings that then go into the application that isn't used for kind of the immigration services. It's kind of showing their status as having kind of separate neglect or abuse from parents. It's in their best interest to stay here. - Today, we're learning about immigration law and immigration process from an agency called Mabel, and we're learning from the co-founders of this agency, Jill Seiber and Danielle Santiago. We're learning about the services that they provide, and now we're going to please learn a little bit about Mabel. If you could please tell us, how do people find you? - So we, like the immigration court, has a listing of like three legal service providers, and we are one of the providers that are listed in the Boston court and the Chems Court court, which is brand new, and so people usually, after they get the documents from the court, they call us and they say, well, they gave me your number and you're supposed to help me. So then we usually would open an intake of the clients and see what the case is about, and we will discuss it with the other lawyers or attorneys, and then decide if we can take the case or not, or if there's a service that we can provide for the client, even if we don't take the case. Some of the calls people are in court, but they are looking for some sort of different reliefs, so we don't provide our services, and so there are other agencies that we refer them to, so that's one way of doing it. But usually after we get the referral, the intake process, we decide which case that we take or not. - And what are some of the criteria that you use to decide whether or not you take the applicants, for example, income or other criteria? What is that? - So yes, the first criteria is that they have to meet income requirements, so they have to be below 150% of the poverty guidelines for the United States, and then so once we decide that they qualify based on income, then we decide based on the facts of the case or what type of claim they have. Sometimes we have cases that are subject to something new in the law, so we want to discuss it further, so that's something that would be attractive to us, but usually it's a process between the lawyers and how we decide the cases. - Interesting, so we have 10 minutes left. - Oh sorry. - No, that's plenty of time to discuss about Mabel. So since we have some time, I would like to see if we can tell us what would be the difference between taking a case completely by Mabel or just doing a service, like when would be some examples of when you take a case for Mabel? - Sure, so when we take a case for full representation, we help starting with the asylum application and then work permit, we take care of them until their case is heard in immigration court. It's different, and really a lot of it's based on capacity. We would love to take everybody all the way through, but knowing that we can't and people need to preserve their one year deadline, that's when we do just the applications. But in terms of what it looks like to prepare for a case, about a month before they're hearing in front of the judge, we prepare more evidence, we submit that to the court, and then we do a lot of trial prep, prepare them for questions. We're asking the DHS attorney might ask, and so usually we're with some of those clients, two to three years and some six, seven years, it depends on the docket and how soon their cases are adjudicated. - So in terms of that adjudication, we do have some time. I do want to ask you how Mabel got its name. I also want to know a little bit about, if you do your services on a pro bono basis, how do you get compensated for all this extremely important work? - Sure, so we rely on funders a lot, and so we get grants and money from foundations, we have partnerships with community-based organizations and others, and then some generous donors. And the story of Mabel, you asked about. - Yes, I definitely think that some of these donors need to be listening to you today, but I would love to hear that story because Mabel is the name of a woman, so please tell us about it. - So Mabel is from a Central American country, and she had experienced persecution in her country of origin, and it was at a time where they were starting to hear some cases right along the border in some tent courts, and there wasn't very many, there was a real problem with access to attorneys, and so we were volunteering with a pro bono project, helping them screen for cases they might take, and when we talked around the phone, we just knew it was somebody that we really wanted to help, and so we took our case, and we were so thrilled when she won, so a big part of that time is they were returned to wait in Mexico, and so it was just so joyous, I think, when she won, because she was able to come to the United States and stay. A lot of our clients, you can appeal, and there's other mechanisms in the Boston area, but when, kind of for those cases, that sense of urgency was very kind of front and center. Right, that is a time when people came, but they were returned to the immediate country where they, not necessarily, they were there from there, but they just returned them to that place where they crossed the border. Yeah, that's where they, I mean, they had court dates, but that's where they would wait until their court dates were called, and so she had a little six-year-old daughter, I think, or seven, and they were trying to evade danger a lot of the time, so that sense of urgency was there, and she was just a very special and unique woman, so we wanted to keep our services client-focused, client-based, and so we thought what better way than to name it after her. Well, Mabel is a very specialized agency, boutique agency, however, tell us a little bit as to that case of asylum we have about six minutes left, we can talk a little bit about the process. So walk us through a typical immigration case through that immigration process, the court and the judge, and I also would like to hear from you as to why do you believe it's important that these clients have representation? Yeah, so typically the court case feels very much like a trial. There's very little, there was she ages with immigration court, like the judge has to decide on the asylum, yes or no. So yeah, the judge has to hear all the evidence that we present, and they have to weigh it carefully, and then they will make a decision, and then there's testimony in this cross-examination, so it's very, very much like a trial, but it's also compressed into maybe one day or half a day, so for the clients, they need to talk about all the harm that they face, all the horrible things they faced in their country once more, and so it's very, very, also very difficult for them. And I think one thing that's important to understand about asylum is there's two paths. So we focus primarily today on going through immigration court because that's, Mabel Sinner does a lot of that work. It's also possible if you came with papers, if you came as a student or a professor, and then you decided it was unsafe to return, you can apply and have an interview with an asylum officer, and there is no attorney on the other side, and you can be represented by an attorney, but we have a very limited role, and it's mostly a conversation between the asylum officer and the asylum seeker. - Interesting. Now, we have like five minutes, what do you feel, why do you feel that these population needs representation, and do you feel there is enough representation out there for them? - Well, just to get to the second part first, we don't think there's an notification for asylum, based on the need, there's not enough immigration lawyers out there, especially pro bono ones. So there's a lot of need, especially because the government doesn't provide for council. So there's a lot of need that in some manner, and that's one of the reasons we also started Middle Center was to try to catch as many people in those gaps as we can within our means, but that was one of the founding principles that we have. - In immigration court, the stats are incredible. If you have an immigration attorney, I think you're five times more likely to win, so we believe there are a lot of winning good cases that are lost because they don't have, it's a very complicated area of law, and if you don't have someone helping you navigate the legal elements, it's just difficult for them to present it in a way that the judge can see that they qualify. And so I think in that way, and we believe that most of them are likely to be killed or tortured if they're, we're not to win their case. So in that way, we feel like the representation is important to help them and their families stay safe. - And Jill, one of our co-founders and Daniel Santiago are advocating for additional attorneys in that area of the law, specifically asylum is what we're referring to where you just heard one of the co-founders say that it's a winning case, but because there's no attorneys, it's very likely not being able to go through the system. - What are some of the takeaways that you would like the public to know? - I would say winning asylum is very difficult, right? And so it's a very challenging process. It's certainly not an easy one. And when somebody's won asylum, you know, you really know that they've been in harm's way. So I think that's one of the important takeaways and that representation is extremely important. I think those are two of the most, I don't know, Daniel, if you-- - Well, I would agree with you 100%. It's just very difficult to win asylum. So it's very important to have when they're trying to walk through the process and guide them to the process. - Well, and where can we find the Mabel Center? How do we reach you if somebody wants to? - So our direct line is 617-417-4325. If somebody's interested in an intake, they can call the number, they can also do WhatsApp. We do use that with all the clients because that's the way they communicate. And also on the internet, Mabelcenter.org. You can also make a query in the webpage. - Well, for our audience today, we learned a lot about asylum. We learned about the Mabel Center and its important mission and work and assistance that they provide on a pro bono basis to everyone they find in immigration court. It is difficult to do this work. Funding is required. And this is why we're very grateful to both the co-founders Jill Seiber and Daniel Santiago. - Thank you for having us. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)