Ken interviews former Red Sox player Bernie Carbo about his book, baseball & life!
WBCA Podcasts
City Talk with Ken Meyer (Bernie Carbo)
(upbeat music) - WBCA radio is proud to present City Talk, where fascinating conversation is alive and well, with your host, Boston radio veteran, Ken Meyer. - Hello again everybody, welcome to City Talk. If you're a fan of the Boston Red Sox and a fan of sports and sports history, we've got a dynamite guest this evening. If you remember the sixth game of the 75 World Series as I do, you'll remember a home run that was hit by a fellow named Bernie Carbo to tie the game up and go into extra innings. And of course, we all know what happened in the 12th inning. And Bernie Carbo is with us as a friend of mine used to say live and in living color. And Bernie, I can't tell you what a thrill it is to talk to someone that's connected with history and you. - Well, I appreciate it Ken, appreciate it. - Let's go back to that game. I know you give a lot of credit to Carlton Fisk, but if you hadn't hit that home run, Fisk wouldn't have hit his. - Well, that's true. But you know the thing about it, Sparky Anderson would have managed like he always manages, which coming up in that situation, me being a left hand hitter in Raleigh East with being a right hander, he would have went to Will McEnany, who's the left hander in the bullpen. And I told Juan Benicos, I said you get a bat because he's going to go to left hand or you'll have to come in and pinch him for me. So when I went on the index circle, I was still looking for Sparky to come out of the dugout. And Ampar says, you're hitting, I was like very surprised. When I got to home plate, I said to Johnny, I said to Johnny, I said, John, you're not, they're not going to Will McEnany. He said, no, we're going right after you. I said, oh, no, I can't believe it. I was so behind the first couple of pitches, I was scared to death and then he threw me a cut fastball. And I had two strikes on me and I took it right out of Bench's glove and the Ampar is saying, you know, ball and Bench is arguing it was a strike and I'm almost struck out, probably. Rose said it looked like a little later trying to hit and Bench said it was the worst swing I ever saw in baseball. Rico Pecicelli down the first said look like a pitcher, heard his arm trying to learn to hit. And of course Freddie Lynn at second said, there's no chance. And Zimmer walked all the way down the right field line. I stepped out of the box and I went, wow, that was terrible. And next thing I know he threw me an outside fastball and I hit it and I saw Geronimo turn his back and I'm rounding second base and I'm yelling at Pete Rose. Don't you wish you were this strong Pete? Don't you wish you were this strong and he's yelling at me that this and this is the greatest game you ever played in. This is a world series Bernie. This is fun. This is a lot of fun. - Well, I got to tell you I was on my way to work that night. I was working at WBC radio at the time and I had a radio with me and Kurt Goudy called that home run. And I think I scared my cab driver. He almost went off the road 'cause I got so excited when you hit that and tied it up. And it is ironic that they're telling you that's the worst swing they ever saw before you performed your magic. And we'll go back to all that later on. But first of all, tell me about Bill LaJoy and Tiny Thompson. - Wow, you come up with Bill LaJoy and Tiny Thompson. Oh my goodness, that's wonderful. Bill LaJoy was a bird dog for the Cincinnati Reds. What I mean, he was a scout which ended up becoming a general manager for the Detroit Tigers and climbed up the ladder. And Tiny Thompson was, I was playing with Martin Harkram, George Grinnell. And it's a college league and I was only 15 years old and I sat the bench five games and I asked for my release and Tiny Thompson took me into play shortstop. We had John Mayberry, Tom Raglan on that team that went to the big leagues. And I got the chance to play shortstop and Tiny Thomas gave me an opportunity. Willie Harten played then earlier when he was a little older than I was. But I got an opportunity to play. And I really, you know, scouts would come up to me and ask me what college I was going to. I said, I'm only in the 10th grade. And that's why Marty Harkram didn't play me because they had all the college guys and I thought I was too young. But when I went to Tiny Thompson, he said, you're playing shortstop, you're going to be in there the whole time. And I think that's when I made a name for myself where, you know, I was number 16 pick, number one draft towards the first year of the draft which I didn't like to draft. I'm against the draft and I always have been against the draft. And I got drafted and I had to go to Cincinnati Reds and I'm more in draft choice. Didn't make Johnny Bench very happy, but he was a great catcher and a Hall of Famer, of course, but Bill of Joy was a good man. He only lived down the street. So he was watching me play ball when I was 11 years old and Bob Houseman came to Detroit, signed me and I went to Tampa to play it in the Florida State League and I struggled. But it was a lot of fun. Bill of Joy was a good man. I really liked Bill of Joy and it was really a fun time for me and I was looking back and playing in Detroit and playing in that league. It was a lot of great baseball players and a lot of players came out of that league from Detroit. - When you got to Cincinnati, it was kind of disheartening because you did not like their current manager and that was Dave Bristol. - You're hitting some, you know, I was talking about that with my chiropractor today. You know, back in, back in the '60s, you know, it was kind of funny when I went to spring training. He found out, he found out I didn't wear a cup, you know, so he took me out the third base, he hit me about 150 ground balls open. He would teach me to wear a cup but I always had good hands at that particular time that really, especially that morning. And he threw me a bag of chew in the back at that time and he said, you need to chew the back before you get to the big leagues and I went, oh boy, I got to chew the back of now. But I think that he had veterans. He had a great team. There was no room for a kid to play on that team. You know, you have Frank Robinson, Beta Pinson and Pete Rose and a bunch of baseball players, Darryl Johnson, Aaron Johnson and a few other players, Alex Johnson and had a great team, Leo Cardness at Tommy Helms and they had a team. There was no reason, you know, for the three years I went to spring training was since then added that time. The only thing I was discouraged with is that I've never got an opportunity to swing the bat in spring training, never got into a game one time and we were in spring training and me and Helmer, Craig, we're walking the streets of Miami and we got sent down to the minor leagues with after a third year and I spoke to Dave. I said, you've never seen me play, you know, I'm never bad at once, I've never been in a game and never got an opportunity. So when I 1968 I went with Sparky Anderson, he said he's gonna make me into a ballplayer and he did. We won the championship that year and when Sparky became the manager, I had a great year at AAA hitting 359 and Sparky gave me an opportunity. Me and Helmer McCray and Darryl Chaney and David Concepcion, Wayne Simpson were all rookies coming up to the big leagues, that was different. You know, Sparky gave all this young kids an opportunity to come to the big leagues and I think that we helped in 1970 to make the big red machine, make the Cincinnati Reds get into a world serious but when we got into the world serious against Baltimore, our pitching staff was really hurting and had a lot of sore arms and nobody could lift their arms up. It was just a terrible time to have pitching. You have to win with pitching and we didn't have the pitching going into that world serious. And it was a great play too. If you remember in 1970, you go way back to game one. Man on first and third, we're losing five to three in the first game and I'm on third and Ali Scrammett says, watch the line drive, don't get doubled off, tag up on the fly ball, going to ground ball and tie a client top to ball. And Albert's Henry's picked the ball up with his hand and I'm sliding in the home and Ken Burkhardt's in the way. He can't see the play. I can't see home plate. Now he's in the way I have to slide around him. Burkhardt is in my way and Ali, Ken, what was the catcher's name I just mentioned? - Hendrix, Albert. - Yeah, George Henry, Sags under the glove and has the ball in the other hand. I miss home plate and umpire calls me out. I stamp on home plate arguing, Sparky comes down and says, you get kicked out of the game, he's going to cost you $5,000. And I look at him and say, I'm only making $10,000. So, you know, we lost that first game in the World Series and that was tough, but it was a situation that at that time that was written in the paper that I lost the first game in the World Series because I didn't run the bases correctly. But, you know, if we had instant replay, I wonder if George Henry doesn't tag me with the ball and I miss home plate, but as I was arguing, I step on home plate, so I'd be safe today. - Yeah, it's kind of interesting because 70 for you guys, at least for you was a Cinderella year, your first year in the big leagues. And it was kind of disheartening to find out that in 71, you already had contract problems and kind of lost your temper. Can you tell that story about Bob housing? - Well, the thing is, I went to, I went, I held out all the spring training at the time. I was making 10,000, the minimum went to 12. They were offering me a $5,000 race at $17,000 and Billy Conligliaro signed a contract with the Red Sox his second year for $32,000. As a number one job choice, I signed for 30 when I was 17. So I was negotiating with Bob Housman and he called me and asked me to come to the office at that time. And I said, you know, when I was 17 years old, you signed me for 30,000. And I said, and I just went to Marvin Miller and I'm asking Marvin Miller that I want to go to court and fight this, but he's gonna go with Kurt Flood and he says, I'm too young to go to court to negotiate my contract. I just, you're not offering me very much money. I can go to Puerto Rico and make more money in three months and get my house paid for in a car and everything else. And I could go work at a hardware store and hopefully win a ball and make more money. And he says, no, you're gonna go home and carry a lunchbook like your dad. And I said, well, I said, I would want to play baseball. I want to make some money. I thought that I would, you know, make more money than, you know, I just feel I love baseball. I want to play. And he says, no, you're going home and carry a lunchbook and like your dad. I said, you know, I've always dreamed all my life about playing baseball. I mean, you gave me 30,000 when I was 17. Now I played in the minor leagues, minor league player of the year, rookie of the year, playing a world series, give top hitter and everything like this, hit 310. And he says, I guess you just don't understand that you're gonna go home and carry a lunchbook, you know, go home and carry a lunchbook like your dad. And I pulled him across the desk and I beat him up. (laughs) - Yeah, yeah. - And I beat him up and, you know, the guy interviewed me years later. And he says, you're not very interviewed, the big red machine in the '70s and talked to Bob Houseman. You're not very liked by Buster Bob Houseman. And I said, well, you know, nobody, I never told anybody that I pulled him across the desk and beat him up. And when we played in the '75 World Series, it gave me an opportunity to go to Sparky Anderson and say Sparky, I'm really sorry because I put you in a situation that when me and Houseman had our argument and things went bad with us and he's told me that I would never play in the big leagues again. And I put you in that situation and I said, I'm really sorry that that happened. And he said, don't worry about it, Bernardo. Don't worry about Bernardo. You know, you're like a son to me and I love you very much. I said, well, thanks, Sparky. You know, I made a lot of mistakes in my life, you know, and that was one of the bigger ones to make at the age of 22, 23 years old. And the next year I didn't go spring training either. So I missed spring training at 22 and 23 years old. I had no spring training. Then I got traded to the Cardinals and then the Boston and then my whole career seemed to go backwards and made a lot of bad decisions and ended up not loving the game of baseball. But, you know, the question that's asked me more often and not about your career, what would you do differently? And my life has changed because of Jesus Christ. I was an alcoholic and a drug addict for 28 years. At the age of 43, I was going to rehab, but by baseball assistants team, Sam McDowell, what happened was my mother commit suicide. My dad died and my career was just heartening. It was terrible. It's just decisions I made. With the one with housemen, it was a fine example. You just don't do things like that. And I've had a lot of fights and a lot of arguments and a lot of things that happened in my career. But it came to a place where I drove the car in the garage and I was going to smoke my last joint, drink my last beer. And I was just going to go to sleep, my mom drank, rotor rotor. I wouldn't go and go that way. But Bill Lee called of all people and he listened on the phone very long and then he called Ferguson Jenkins and I wasn't going to tell Fergie anything about what I was going to do because he had enough hardship in his life. And Sam McDowell called me and the next morning I went to rehab. And when I went to rehab, of course, I didn't want to be there. I had an anxiety attack. I ended up at Tampa University Hospital where I mean, I had called, got a cough as I was in the hospital room. He got a cough from rehab and I hung up and he said, are you an alcoholic and a drug addict? And I was like, well, I said, do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? And I said, don't know what you're talking about. My mom and dad didn't go to church. I never went to church, never had a Bible. Never went to church. We didn't believe in God. And you know, I would think that the thing about it was that I was with that man, the old man next to me for about three days. And he told me that I was a sinner and I can repent and I can come to know the Lord and believe in Jesus Christ that he died, took on the sin of the world, took on my sin and that I can be reborn, which I didn't believe a lot of things, but you know, I didn't want to die at that time. And I prayed to take Christ into my life and my life changed. I went into rehab and came out of rehab and started a dime club ministry with Kyle Schillings. And I was talking to a young group of young men yesterday on the age of about 10 to 17. And I told a story of that about an old man that I talked to 80 years old and told him. I said, I'm praying for you to get in the God's hall of fame. And he said, I don't know how to get there. I said, either die. And I gave him the gospel and the good news is by Jesus Christ. And I've been clean for 27 years. I love baseball now. God has given me back my understanding of the players that I played with, the great opportunity and played in big leagues, playing two world series, playing Boston, the greatest place ever to play. I played with Collier Shrimsky and new Ted Williams, Stan Musial, played against Willie May, stole his game back and he was mad at me for 40 years and still love him. He's the greatest ball player I ever played. I played with Hank Aaron. I played with Willie Starder, Dave Parker, Del Perra and a whole bunch of Pittsburgh players and Cardinal players Ted Simmons, who just got in the hall of fame, Bob Gibson, Lou Bron. So the things I look back at now that I came to know Jesus Christ in my life, even at home run, you know, I never when I was hit that home run in '75, it was so long ago, 40 some years ago, I never heard the crowd and I missed in the bat too, believe it or not, I struck out, I didn't know I got up to the plate the second time. I played, I batted after I hit that home run. I didn't even realize that. I didn't know it 'til I watched the highlights and I said, "Holy cow." And my wife says, "You should've hit another home run." Instead of striking out. (laughs) But when I heard the crowd, when I heard the crowd, I was like, "I don't believe it." Man, that crowd went loud. They said the hospital down in Boston, the woman's hospital, they knew something happened. My friend was, his wife was having a baby and he said, "When I heard that crowd, I had to tell the wife I could go find out what happened." (laughs) But yeah, that's a lot of things happen in my career. If you read my book, "Saving, Burning, Carbo." Peter Hanson wrote that book. We were great friends. He has a doctor's screen, clinical psychology, teaches that low mass. And I understand that you read my book. - Hi, Jim. - Yeah, and this is where you're getting a lot of that information. You asked me a question when we were talking. He said, "How could you be so honest in your book? How could you be so honest about the things you talked about in your life?" - Yeah, well, you know, a lot of people, even myself, have the tendency to put ball players on a pedestal. They are something special. I did it with guys like Mickey Mantle and Whitey Ford and then found out that, you know, Mickey spent a lot of his time in bars and not necessarily sitting there watching television. And I kind of felt bad about that. Were you afraid when you put all this down that you would lose fans because of all the stuff that you admitted? - You know, what I wanted them to know was that we're born with the son nature of the first Adam. You know, I never read the Bible and never knew anything. And now in the 27 years I've been clean and reading the Word and being in the Word, going to church and praising God and worshiping God and knowing the whole spirit and God is with me. I wanted people to know that no matter whatever you've gone through in your life, I mean, I went through a lot and I made a lot of bad decisions not knowing the Lord and not knowing Christ and not knowing the character of God to be able to walk the walk. You know, Jesus came to give us the way the truth and the life. And I wanted people to know no matter what had happened in your life, I wonder sometimes, you know, there are things that went through my life that I can reach so many people. You know, I was molested. I went with drugs and alcohol, I've been abused, a verbally abused and have been treated in a way and done things in my life that I should be very ashamed of. But I wanted them to know no matter whatever you've gone through in your life, there are like, there is no condemnation in Jesus Christ when you're reborn. And God is with me and the Spirit is God is with me and I'm a new man in Christ. And I wanted people to know that my life has changed, but it's a very difficult path. Being a Christian is not an easy thing. It's a thing that you have to understand that every day of your life, I'm not able to take my eyes off of Jesus Christ. I have to have him with me, which God is with me wherever I go. And if I'm in the fire, everything I've gone through, yes, there's scars, there's pain, there's times I cry and everything else, but hitting that home run in the world series, thinking I dreamed about that my whole life. My whole life, I was putting marbles. My daddy, buying me some marbles and I had to hit him over the fence with the wooden bat and the wooden bat had little holes and am I asking my dad for some more marbles? He gets mad at me 'cause I don't know how to shoot marbles and he's not gonna buy me any more marbles 'cause he's think I'm getting into all the kids in the neighborhood. And I hit that home run and I was home crying in my bed, crying in my bed like a little boy, like a little boy crying. And I was so empty thinking that being a professional ball player, I was making pretty good money then and being famous and being playing with a boss at Red Sox and Mr. Yalki at Fenway Park, the greatest baseball park to play in, and the greatest fans and hitting me, one of the greatest home runs, I was still hurting and empty and had pain and, oh, I mean, I just went on and on in my whole life and at the age of 43, a guy in the hospital gives me the gospel and the good news and I take Christ in my life and ask them, "What is your name?" And he says, "Your only name you need to know is Jesus Christ and it hands me my first Bible." And then I go to rehab and this guy comes up and says, "I'm a Christian. I'm here to just cycle you in the name of Jesus. I don't know what you're talking about, man." And he's reading the Bible for three months, we're in the Bible and then I get out of rehab and I'm going home, I have a flat tire, I can't have a spare. I got to walk back to rehab, I've got all day, I got to borrow money 'cause I don't have any, get the tires, I get back home and the guy comes over and calls shillings and we start the diamond club ministry. I walk into my first church, I get baptized and it's difficult and at the 14 months I relapse because I didn't change people in playing things. I relapse really hard for three weeks and God still loved me. I thought God didn't let me and then my psychiatrist was a Christian. He says, "You need to pray to find a good woman." I prayed to find a good woman. I told the pastor, I got to go to the anchor house where I go play pool with the boys and basketball and play some softball and told the pastor there, I relapse and gonna have lunch and phone rings and here comes Tammy Young and I tell her, Tammy Young, you're gonna have lunch with me and God saw me, you need to be with me. She said, "God ain't told me anything yet." And we were married four months later and I adopted her son, but his name is Christopher Bernardo Carbo, Jr. He's the third and he's a great kid. He's a doctor in the army. He's got a doctor's degree in psychology, works with a green parade. He's here in Fort Bragg, he's got 12 years in and we're here in North Carolina, be with him and his two kids. My wife's retired from the school counseling and I'm teaching baseball and teaching the greatest game I've ever played and telling the greatest story ever and that's Jesus Christ. - What about your daughters? How are your daughters doing or what are they up to? - My daughters are struggle, you know? They didn't have much of a dad. I wasn't there for them and it's a hard thing. But my oldest daughter, I was working in Mobile, Alabama with a young boy, started working with him when he was 10 years old. I've been doing this for a long time and he died with an overdose with fentanyl and I did his funeral and right before I was leaving for the funeral, my oldest daughter Tracy called me and she said, "Dad, this is Tracy." And I went, "How are you doing, Tracy? "I love you very much, I miss you." She said, "Dad, I just prayed to take Jesus Christ "in my life, I've been baptized, Austin, 10 years old, "baptized, my husband's been baptized, "I'm loving God and loving Jesus." And I did the funeral, so I'm really happy with her. I'm gonna be with her in March. Tamara is struggling, Mandy's struggling, my grandchildren are struggling and I have 11 grandchildren, I have four great-grandchildren. And not everyone comes to know the Lord and they sometimes they have to reach bottom as I reach bottom before they wake up and know that there's a different way to live. And I've told them all that I'm responsible for both his choices they've made and I'm very sorry and that I love them and I pray for them continuously to make better choices in their lives. And they're starting to listen and I think they're making better choices. My grandkids are being better, too. And it's just a process and I believe that we have to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, for God so loved the world that He gave us to be God and Son that ever you should believe, you should not perish but have everlasting life. And that's what I'm about, wherever I go, I'm an evangelist, wherever I go, it's all about Jesus. I wear a shirt that says Jesus reigns, I'm in Club Ministry, which I started in 1993 with Carl Schillings. I went to New England for 25 years before this COVID and we did 10 and 12,000 miles all through me and in Canada, Vermont, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Boston, Virginia, New York. I've gone every place, I've been a Guam, I've been to Wanton Bay, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Bahrain, teaching baseball and telling kids about Jesus and going to churches, halfway houses, prisons, detention homes. I will go anyplace, every time I offered an opportunity, all I need is get there, get home, have a place to put my head down, to be able to talk to people and give them hope and understanding that it's only in Jesus Christ. - I'd like to go back if it's okay and discuss more of your baseball career. You mentioned Tom Yawkey and there are two very poignant stories in your book about Yawkey. Can you tell us those stories? - Well, I love Mr. Yawkey, I love Mr. Yawkey, man. I finally, in all the years I've ever played baseball, I put the uniform on and it meant something in my life. It meant I wanted to win for Mr. Yawkey. I love playing for you, I love putting that boss in the uniform on and I was the first ball player to take him to arbitration for a $10,000 race and I ended up losing and Mr. Yawkey, I'll tell you how I met him. He was in the clubhouse talking to the bat boys and the clubhouse boys and all that and I walked over and I said here's $20, $20, I need a cheeseburger and fries and Tommy the clubhouse boy came back about 20 minutes later and he said, you know who you gave that money to? I said, no, I don't, he says, Mr. Yawkey, he owns the team. I walked over to him, I said, oh, he said, before I could even open my mouth, he said, Bernardo and there's only one other person that ever called me Bernardo, Sparky Anderson. He loved me, Sparky loved me, he was like my daddy and I was like, he's like my grandpa talking to me calling me Bernardo and he said, Bernardo, just win the game Bernardo, just win the game and that's that time I told him, I said, you know, my wife's pregnant, you wanna buy a house, can you advance me $10,000 and take it out of my check? Three days later, the clubhouse man said, there's a letter, there's an envelope in your locker and when I opened up it was $10,000. I was able to buy a home and framing him and the thing about it was Mr. Yawkey and I never took a penny out of my pockets. Never, never took a penny. And it broke my heart when they took his sign down from the street that was called Mr. Yawkey. Fenway Park is like Wrigley Field. There's only two places to play baseball. One is Wrigley Field and the other one is Fenway and I love playing there and I always said, when I left there the first time I went to Milwaukee, I got traded, I didn't report for 22 days. I wasn't going to Milwaukee for 22 days. And the next time I gave you, I went to Cleveland and that's where I should have stayed. But when I left Boston the second time my career was over with and my heart was broken and it was when we had our 40 year reunion, I saw Rick Burson staring at me and he said to me, he said, you know, when you left in '77, if we didn't get rid of you, there wouldn't have been a buggy dinner, a home run. Because nobody came off the bench for 120 some games that did not pinch it in RBI, pinch it in the home run, come off the bench to drive a run in and understand that that one time, that one at bat, one run that I might have won a game, there would not have been a playoff. So that was really nice for Burson to say them. Another thing he said, he said he couldn't believe that I'm still alive. - Was Darryl Johnson the right manager for that 75 team? - Well, the one thing about Darryl Johnson, he left us alone. You know, Carl Yersimski was our leader. You know, Carl Yersimski was the greatest superstar baseball player that I ever played with. I love Carl Yersimski, he had a great personality, he was quiet, he was a leader. And he wanted to win, he played every time, played every game. We had Freddie Lynn, you know, I put in my book, though Jimmy Rice broke his wrist. And I put in the book, I said, you know, we lost Jimmy Rice in that World Series. And he read the book and I saw him next time and he says, "You got it all wrong." And I'm like, "What did I get all wrong?" He says, "Not like losing Tony Perez, "it was like losing Johnny Bitch." But the greatest game, you know the thing about it is that I was talking to the gentleman that was putting us together and he's a young man, he's in his 30s. You know, I talked, the history of baseball has been lost. You know, I talked to kids about Sam Uxio and who's my hitting instructor in Ted Williams and Willie Mays and, you know, Heycare and these kids, they don't remember these players. You know, and I think back at me growing up as a kid, you know, Al Kailin playing in Detroit, Al Kailin, of course, Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle, you mentioned Mickey Mantle, you know, Mickey Mantle. I was loving the New York game 'cause that time playing in Detroit. But, you know, it's the history of the game. I think there's going, we're in a position now that if we don't settle before spring training, I think baseball is riding a cocktail of football now and things are changing with this COVID. We didn't have any fans there for a while. We lost, we lost a lot of minor league teams. We lost over 44 rookie league baseball cities in stadium that have been around for over a hundred years. We lost 1,200 baseball players. We've lost management, the cities have lost money and the salaries are getting outrageously to where, you know, the owners are still making money but it's costing too much to go to a ball game, too much to park, too much for the food and the souvenirs and whatever. I tell you, I run a fantasy camp March 11th, 12th and 13th that Hank Aaron Stadium was Hank Aaron Stadium is going to be tore down. I'm meeting with the owner that bought the property and I'm going to try to convince him that Hank Aaron, the greatest baseball player that ever played with in my life from Mobile, the stadium needs to stand, it needs to be there, it needs the history of Mobile to know that William and Colby, Ozzy Smith and Aaron, just a few to mention that has come from Mobile that we, you know, John Hilliard and Ari are running that for the last few years, have been there over 20 years. Let's say him needs to stay and when you talk to kids today and I'm talking about players, they don't know who they are. People are listening to this right now and they, you know, 40 years ago, 45 years ago, they don't know who Bernie Carba was, they don't know me hitting a homerun. I talk to kids, they have no idea who I am until they go online and pull me out on the computer or whatever and they come back to next day. Another thing happened, some kid came up to me and said, oh wow, I was watching, I was watching and it came on in 1999, 1999, an all-star game at Fenway Park. You were catching and Hank Aaron through the ball to you to start the homerun derby. - You know what, I was at that game. - That was a thrill of my life to have Hank Aaron sign that ball and Hank Aaron's home is immobile at the property of Hank Aaron's stadium, it's a museum that my ball that he signed in 1990, all-star game is in that museum and it breaks my heart what's happening to baseball. - It really is. - It's funny you mentioned the 1999 all-star game because I read in another book that originally it was not supposed to be at Fenway Park. It was supposed to be at Miller Park in Milwaukee, but because of construction problems, they moved it to Fenway. Wow, I didn't know that, but I did get an opportunity and that was the most fun I've ever had. It was, you know, one of the things that Hank Aaron, Hank Aaron, playing with Hank Aaron, it was his last year of his career and sitting there next to him, just trying to figure out all the things about, pick his mind about hitting and just watching him in his last year of his life or playing football, I mean, playing baseball, I'm sorry, his baseball career, he was a great man. He was such a sweetheart. I mean, he just, he helped me at the time where I didn't wanna be in Milwaukee and sitting next to him made me feel at home in Milwaukee and it gave me the courage to stand up and be the man that I should have been, you know, to speak out on how it's being treated and stuff. And I ended up getting a telephone call from John Zemmer when Darryl Johnson, I was fired and Zemmer called me and he said, "Do you wanna come back to Boston?" And I said, "I sure would." He said, "Okay, you know, do what you gotta do, Milwaukee. "Play hard and you're coming, "I'm gonna trade for you and you're gonna come back." We got George Scott and myself that went to Boston and hey, they got Cesar Cooper, which ended up being a, just a great baseball player for the Milwaukee person. They ended up in the World Series, but I came to Boston back with John Zemmer. And '77, I had a great year, 228 of bats. I hit 15 home runs, three pinch hit home runs. And that's when Ted Williams said to me, he said, "What do you look for when you go up to the plate?" And I said, "I look fast, but I react to curveball." And he said, "That's why you hit 200 and I hit 400." (laughs) I said, "What are you talking about?" He said, "You gotta see the ball, get a good pitch "and hit it hard, but if they're getting you out "with a breaking ball and you're watching the game "and you're sitting on a bench watching 150 pitches "being thrown, you know when he's throwing a curve, "the slider or change up, is he getting it over? "When's he throw the fastball? "When's he throw with men in scoring position? "What's this out pitch?" And so in that '70s opening day, I'm facing Ferguson Jenkins. And what does he get me out with? There's a curveball. I have never in my life hit a curveball for a home run. And here I'm 26 years old facing Fergie Jenkins opening day and what's he throwing me? I'm looking curveball, looking for it up and I hit a home run. I hit another curveball and hit a double. And we go out to eat and Ferguson Jenkins is so angry. (laughs) He won't talk to me. And he looks at me finally. You've never hit a curveball in your life and you've never hit one off of me and I says, "You know what? "William says you look for it, "make it be a good pitch and hit it hard. "Now watch you pitch to me for seven years "and I've never hit you very hard. "Never got to hit off the breaking ball "and I knew you were gonna throw it to me "and I hit it deep." (laughs) - This may be a difficult question, but compare personality wise, Hank Aaron and Willie Mays. You know, Willie Mays was a great baseball player. Man, I'm telling ya. I got called up in 1969 and I'm walking on the field in San Francisco and there's no steps in the dugout and there's no one in the dugout. So I go in the dugout and I'm looking for Willie's bat and I take it, I take it out the bat rack. (laughs) And the first time up, I break it. And after the game, I hear somebody like, "Where's Carbo? "Where's Carbo?" And I'm like, "Willie, Mr. Willie Mays, "everybody here." He says, "Where's my game bat?" (laughs) "What's the game bat?" Well, when I play in the Meyer Leagues, we go and see his world ball. I can buy the Ted Williams bat and that'd be the bat we swing with for the rest of the summer. (laughs) I said, "Game bat, it's right here. "Will you sign it for me?" And he looked at me and 40 years later, they were moving Hank Aaron's house in. You got Reggie Jackson Henderson and Willie MacCovey, Willie Mays. And I walk in and he looks at me and he says, "Oh, you're that left-handed hitter. "It took my game bat." (laughs) I said, "You got to be kidding, Willie, man. "You were my favorite ball player." Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But both of them, one was, you know, one was Choboty, you know, in a sense, and he was just a flash. And he did so many things that were so easy. Willie Mays, he's so great and such a great hitter, and a runner, just fabulous. And Aaron did things quietly, really quietly, and you wouldn't even know that it's in the ballpark but in playing in the game, but he did it real quietly and did it very, he taught us and taught Robin Yount and the other ball players. He taught a grip of the bat that was a lot different than what they were teaching. And I slilled knuckles on big knuckles and said a little knuckles, knock knuckles, you know what I mean? And Aaron told me, said, Bernie, if you learn it's okay for you to make it out, you'll be a great hitter. And I said, Aaron, what do you mean by that? He says, Bernie, you're back 10,000 times, you make 7,000 outs. You'd be fortunate if you ever get 3,000 hits, you're in the Hall of Fame. He says, you're gonna strike out 2,000 times, 500 backs for four years, you're not gonna hit the ball. You're gonna walk 1,000 times, that's two more years, you're not gonna hit the ball. Six years, 500 backs, you're not gonna hit the ball. You have to understand that every bat, every pitch is important, Bernie, you don't give up, you don't pouch, you don't do tantrums, you gotta have the same attitude, you gotta have a love of playing baseball, you gotta love it. You gotta love hitting, you gotta love playing, you gotta love the game. You really have to start loving it. And that's when I realized that I lost my love for the game when I was with Aaron and he's telling me, you gotta love it, Bernie, you gotta love it. And that's what I spread out to whatever kids are doing or whatever you're doing in your life, anyone is listening to this, whatever you choose to do, love what you're doing, love what you're doing. Love what's happening in your life, be content, have joy and peace and understanding and have love in your life. And I had to learn what it meant to love. And when I asked God, I said, God, I need to be, you teach me to love God. I wanna know how to love. I wanna know how to love Bernie. I wanna know how to love my kids. I wanna know how to love my wife. I want my son. I wanna learn to love the loss. I wanna love people. I wanna love you and everyone else that I meet. I wanna have showed that love in my gleam of my eyes that I'm more content and happier than I've ever been in my life. And I want to express that to people. I want them to feel what I feel in my heart. And I'm at peace today and I love what's happening in my life. I'm 74 years old now. I'm gonna be coaching a college team. I'm working three different places teaching, hitting and I'm right here in Southern Pines. I have my fantasy camp, March 11th, 12th and 13th at Handcaring Stadium. I'm telling people about Jesus. I mean, I go to banquet and whatever. They know when I walk in, I talk to players and people and asking the question. What are you doing with Jesus Christ? - Now, you talk in your book about going to fantasy camps earlier in your career. And it got to be not much fun because of what other ball players tried to make. You go back to the Bernie Carmel that you used to be. - Well, that's why I started a new one. When, you know, everybody loved me. You know, everybody loved me when I was drinking and doing drugs and partying and doing crazy stuff. You know, everybody loves you when you got the drugs. Everybody loves you when you're drinking. Everybody loves you when you're partying. And the fantasy camps were something that I went into rehab and I was going to camps. I was going to Kansas Christian. I was being mocked. I was being made fun of. They were putting beer in marijuana and drugs in front of me. And it's just like, hey guys, I called my wife. I said, I'm coming home 25 years ago. I started a diamond club ministry fantasy camp. And we do it at Hank Aaron Stadium. And we've done it for 25 years. And I don't advertise. It's all word of mouth. And John Hilliard has done a great job. We spread the gospel of Jesus Christ. When I go there, I do a men's group. Hot dogs at the Hank. That's where it's been going on for a long, long time. We place Friday night. We put uniforms on everybody. We got Cincinnati Yankees, Boston, Cleveland Indians, Baltimore Orioles. We got shirts, we got hats and pants and played a hard ball go out there. And a lot of guys come for all the years to been coming. They don't play anymore. Some of them just come to put the uniform on. We play Friday night Saturday. We go to the ballpark. We play at 10, have lunch at 12, play at four or five. We have a banquet. We have an auction. We have a sermon on the mound on Sunday. And then they go home and it's $350. And if they come, they can't afford that. We charge them $150. And if they can't afford that, then I'll let them come. - It must bother you like it does me. I mean, I love baseball history. I know who Bernie Carbo was. I know who Joe DiMaggio was. I knew who Dom DiMaggio was. But baseball has had more work stoppages than any other sport. I mean, they've all had them. And now you have work stoppages. You have the baseball season starting on March 31st. Never used to start that early. It's too cold to play ball. - Yeah. You know, how much is how much? How much money is too much? When I played ball, the minimum salary was $12, $15,000. Average salaries were on 25,000, 35,000. If you're a superstar, you're making 45 grand. We made it better for the kids. I went on strike three, four, five times. We made it better for these kids today. Minimum salary, $675 average salaries, $45 million. Guys are making $40, $50 million. You know, how much is too much? The owners are getting TV contracts for billions in money, one to two, three billion dollars. They're making money. Everybody's making money. How much is too much? I think as a fan, how much do I have to pay to go to a ball game? How much do I have to pay for a hot dog and a coke and a scorecard and everything else in parking, whatever. It's gone too far. It's gone too far. You know, even football, all the salaries and football and basketball, you know, us regular people, you know, you know, we make around 50, 60, 75,000. You're making 100,000, that's got minimum salaries going up a little bit, but we can't afford it anymore. And if there's another strike, I think it's going to be the death of baseball. Man, in fact, I don't think the owners really care because they can make money and not have one person come to the ballpark with the TV revenue and everything else. And I think the players have an understanding that what's happening when they become a free agent today after coming out of college and becoming a free agent, they're over 30 years old. Now these other people have never played the game, they're in their computers and they're figuring out when the player reaches over 30 years old, they're on the decline. If they're not a superstar, we're going to let them go home. Go home and carry a lunch bucket like your dad and then they're going to go back to the kid. So what's happening is these young ball players are still young and when they become a free agent, they're not getting signed. So let's do a wait, we should have done a wait with a draft and a free agency. When I went to Marvin Miller in 1970 and told him, I want to go against baseball. I want to be able to play wherever I want to play. My dad can go work wherever he wants to work. I didn't believe in the draft and I was drafting, I didn't want to sign with Cincinnati, I wanted to play for the Detroit Tigers. Now I'm not getting any money so I can go home, I can go work in a hardware store and go play ball in Puerto Rico. So I want to go to court and fight for the reasons that was different than Kirk Flood. Kirk Flood got traded, he didn't want to get traded. 10 years later, after the fact, Marvin Miller said he made a mistake and that he should have taken me, you know, the fight for what I believe and I believe that even today, I don't believe in the football draft, basketball draft, I don't believe in any draft, I just believe these kids can play and get the money they need to get and play and be able to play wherever they want to play and not have to get drafted. And if you wait six months, then you have to go through the draft again. So it's a difficult situation that they're in, but you know, I just think that, you know, whatever the circumstances, whatever we're going through and whatever, I know that today I choose to be happy because I'm above the ground, I'm breathing and I know my destined where I'm going to be and my identity is in Jesus Christ. So, you know, I just choose to be happy today and there's a lot of decisions that will be made in this world today that I don't have any control and God is in control, he's a sovereign God, nothing happens that God doesn't know what's going on. So I choose to be happy today. - Well, you know, we're almost out of time, but I will tell you this, I thought sure when there was no World Series in 1994, that the fans would not come back, but they did. They always come back. If the product is there, they're going to go see it. - Well, I'm going to tell you one thing, I was glad the Yankees and the Dodgers didn't win because they spent almost $300 million putting the team together and I was saying, "Oh, I don't want them to win." They got the Atlanta Braves, came in and won. And when you, you know, I like the underdog. So I'm rooting for Cincinnati Bengals in a Super Bowl and I'm hoping this kid Joe picks up and he's just a great kid. You know, he went to Ohio State, wasn't the first dream quarterback or whatever and then he went to LSU and Heisman and then he went to Cleveland, nobody, everybody is again. I don't pick him to win one game and he's won every game to get to the playoffs and get to the championship now to the Super Bowl. And so, you know, if he wins, I can understand that football will be back, but you know, with the Atlanta Braves winning, I think that helped baseball in a sense that we're trying to even the field, you know, but I think that baseball has been the greatest game ever played. And that's what I preach. Baseball is the greatest game ever played and the greatest story ever told is Jesus Christ. - Well, listen, I appreciate your taking time out to come on this program. I've been a fan of baseball. I've obviously been a fan of the Red Sox. I even, and don't tell anybody when I was a little rooted for the Yankees. But I appreciate your giving of your time. It's been a real thrill to not only read your book, but to be able to sit down and talk to somebody who was one of my heroes as were a lot of the Red Sox players. And I can't thank you enough for doing that. - Well, you know, kid, Ken, I'll tell you, Dwight Evans and Louis T.M. and Pete Rose. And I can go on and on and on that belongs in the Hall of Fame. Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds and all those players that might have did something wrong in their lives, but you know what? There's no Saints in baseball in a sense in the Hall of Fame. These guys were superstar, great ball players. And it's just the baseball game itself is the greatest game played. And Ted Williams used to always say the hardest thing for a man to do in any sport was to hit a baseball. - Yeah, he did a pretty good job at it, though. - God loved Ted Williams. - Yeah, I had a chance to meet Ted Williams once when he was manager of the Rangers. - Amen, amen. - After they moved out of Washington. - And he wanted to put Sheila Joe Jackson in the Hall of Fame too before he died. - Yeah, he did and he didn't make it. I don't know whether he'll ever get in there. But see now, there's people that don't know who Sheila's Joe Jackson was. I know who he was. - Hey man, amen. Can you help out the other guy? You mentioned Joe DiMasho. When Joe DiMasho came out of center field and came out on a golf cart to home plate. I walked up there and I said, "Joe DiMasho, because I love Don DiMasho, "not many people who do Don DiMasho." And then Jimmy Pearsall, you know, Jimmy Pearsall sitting next to me. And he says, "If you didn't hit that home run, "nobody didn't know who you were." (laughing) I said, "Yeah, but I hit it, right?" - I appreciate you're doing this. Give my best to your wife. Just one quick question. Do you ever see Susan anymore? - You know, my oldest daughter, Susan was going, that's my ex wife. Susan, my Tracy. Susan, her mother, you know, Susan, with Tracy. That's our oldest daughter. She said, "I want to come and visit." And Tracy said, "Mom, if you come to visit, "you're going to go to church with me, "and you're going to stay with me, "but I want you to go and come." Well, when she went to visit my oldest daughter, she went to church and found the Lord and got baptized. And so Tracy's on fire leading her mother to Christ and trying to lead her sisters, you know, Nandy and Tamara, so we need to pray for them. But Tracy's on fire. I mean, she is on fire for the Lord. If you talk to her, it's all about Jesus, and she led her mother to Christ at the age of 70. So, you know, there's a lot of hope out there for a lot of people, and it's just God people. And I tell Christian people what I talk to them about is, what are you doing with Jesus, and who are you telling about Christ? And, you know, God is still in the works of American miracles. And I believe, and that's all you have to do, is believe and call on the name of Lord, and things can change in your life. And my daughter's making a big difference, and Susan has been baptized in coming to the Lord. And she went home and told Tamara and Nandy that if they wanted to, they needed to go to church with her. So hopefully that Tamara and Nandy will get a little closer to the Lord too. So we can always pray and continue to pray for our world. We just continue to pray for our world and pray for people who are Christians to go out in the world and tell people about Christ and give the gospel and the good news. And the world needs Jesus. - Well, listen, we need Bernie Carbo. I can't thank you enough for doing this. I want you to take care of yourself, stay warm. And hopefully there'll be a baseball season this year. Thank you very much, Bernie. - And Ken, if you get a chance to come to Mobile, March 11th, 12th and 13th, be my guest. - I'll keep that in mind. I love fantasy camps and love those ball players. - And I'd love for you for on some time or another, we get to break some bread, hum, brother. - I wouldn't mind that at all, my friend. I wouldn't mind it at all. Like I said, guys are some of my heroes. - I love you, Ken. - Thank you so much, Bernie. - Love you, Ken. - Take care of yourself. - Thank you, sir. - That will do it. Well, that will do it for this edition of City Talk. Good night, everybody. - Thanks for listening to another great conversation with Ken Meyer and friends. You can contact Ken by email. He addresses KJ Meyer7@gmail.com. That's KJ-M-E-Y-E-R7@gmail.com. Tune in next time for more conversation with Ken Meyer on City Talk. 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