WBCA Podcasts
Discovering The Law
- Welcome to Discovering the Law. My name is Lucy Rivera, and in today's episode, we will discuss the role of women in justice reform. And to talk about that topic, we have an amazing attorney and a leader in our community, attorney Carol Starkey, partner at Concabino. Welcome to our show, Carol. - Oh, thank you, Lucy. Thank you so much for inviting me. It's really a privilege and an honor to be here tonight. - Carol, well, we are the ones who are honored to hear about your experience. Carol is a former president of the Boston Bar Association, and she has also been on the board of directors of the Massachusetts Legal Assistance Corporation, known as MLAC. - That's right, yes. Carol, please talk to us a little bit about you and about your path to becoming an attorney and your career as an attorney. - Sure. Well, you know, for me, my interest in going to law school, Lucy, was always to help give voice to people who I didn't think had a voice. And I've been doing this for a very long time, so I'm talking about a long time ago, but I was always interested in using the tools of being a lawyer and being an advocate to really seek out the promise of justice and equality. The promise is there, and we have to always remain hopeful to find it, and that began a real realization for me of the inextricable link between public service and justice, because I always wanted to keep an element of public service in my career. It started way back when I was in college, actually, because I was very interested in the battered woman's movement 35, 40 years ago. And so that developed into doing an internship at the Boulder County District Attorney's Office, where I was a victim witness advocate, helping women and children who were victims of family crimes. And in college, I also went to what was called the Urban Studies Program, and what a fantastic experience that was, because I had the opportunity to work on the first mayor that was an African American in Chicago, Mayor Harold Washington, on his campaign. And you know, it was life shaping for me, because I saw for the first time what can happen when really dedicated people get together, and they work within the system, with a vision, to make government work for everybody, including people who I saw as disenfranchised at the time. And I'm talking about people who are, you know, black and brown people, poor people, women, children, elderly, all LGBTQ, all kinds of folks that didn't have a voice at that time. So it was a wonderful experience, and it cinched my decision in going to law school. And that started off a path of really working towards discovering how I could make an impact. I did that first by going and taking a job at Massachusetts or Greater Boston Legal Services, one of the legal service organizations here in Boston. And you know, it was an experience when I was in law school that taught me how much, even with my limited training back then, how much of an impact I could have on those low income people's lives. And I sought to seek a broader impact from there. So I accepted out of law school a job as an assistant district attorney at Bristol County. And I quickly started working on elder abuse cases. And I'll tell you, those were some of the most heartbreaking and difficult cases of my career. It really enraged me to see this population of elderly people who were, you know, abused, financially exploited, and neglected, and had no voice, no one to work on their cases. At the time. So I was enraged by that and worked on that. And from that opportunity, the then Attorney General Scott Harshbarger invited me to speak on elder abuse. And lo and behold, offered me a job to be an assistant attorney general at the Attorney General's Criminal Bureau. And in the Economic Crimes Division, where I got to prosecute a whole host of a wide variety of white collar crimes, financial frauds, dealing with individuals and corporations and working with organizations throughout the city, the US Attorney's Office, the Secretary of State's Office, the Board of Bar overseers. And, you know, in the course of experiencing trying those cases, and I tried some pretty big cases. They're, you know, the chief of cardiology, Boston Children's Hospital, month long trial that I obtained a conviction on, and ended my career there prosecuting the treasury case, which was a $10 million fraud from our state treasury, that we went after public officials and private lawyers, unfortunately. And those experiences really taught me how those in power have to be accountable for their power and for what they do. And it was a crossroads when I got, when I finished that case, I decided I need to find out what the rest of the world is doing, Lucy, in terms of being a lawyer. So I went into private practice, and I knew of the great lawyers that worked at Concavana, they were some of the most respected attorneys in the city, and I made a couple of calls, and I found myself behind a desk 20 years ago and never looked back. So I have been really blessed with being now a partner at Concavana. I chair the white collar crime and regulatory department, and I'm also part of the management team of the firm. And all of those experiences, all of that path and that journey has been so rewarding in so many different ways. So I feel very lucky. Carol, it's incredibly interesting path. But what are the confluent factors that shape women attorneys in the legal field today? Sure, well, we've talked about some of those factors that shape women. I have to say, even before we think about the confluence of factor shaping women today, it's important to look back at the challenges women have had up to today. And I don't think I'm any different from any other woman who has been in this industry. And the legal system has historically presented many challenges for women, not only of my generation, but for women of all ages. And I can recall 33 years ago, when I was standing in the criminal session of New Bedford First Session, being the only woman in the courtroom between the judges and the clerks and the defendants and the adversaries and everybody else who was in that courtroom. And that was hard. I think all women, throughout the course of when they choose this path of being a lawyer, throughout the course of their career, are going to have moments where they may feel dismissed or they may feel underestimated. They may not get the opportunities they think they deserve. Certainly, I've experienced that throughout the course of my career and really tried to turn that into opportunities. And I think that's what facing those challenges every woman has to do, is really embrace the commitment of knowing that you can do the job, you can meet the challenge. And there are so many wonderful things about working in law. I think it's one of the greatest-- and I seriously believe it is one of the greatest professions and the greatest ways to participate in our great American democracy. And we certainly need that appreciation, and we need that training today. We need people who understand it and take it seriously. And so for me, it's been a real gift. And I look around today-- Lucy, we have, including yourself. We have so many tremendous women of color and women who are of different gender identification, who are in leadership positions in this commonwealth. Look at-- you know, we have Mara Healy, we have Rachel Rollins. Great examples. And the list goes on and on. Of women who have really centered themselves have not only taken a physical presence within our system, which has been historically unwelcoming to women, in a lot of ways, but have succeeded, and have had their voices heard. As you've had your voice heard, and why so appreciate being here. All of that is to say, though, we still have a long way to go. And I think you and I have talked about the fact it's frustrating that law schools are graduating over 50% women in graduating classes. But we're still in the low 20s of percentile of women who become full partners at law firms across the country. And so our numbers speak for themselves. We have a lot of work to do here. And I think women face a lot of challenges when they embrace a legal career, that we're still working through. I was reading an interesting statistic recently where recent studies told us that 44% of women thought they could do both a legal career and their personal lives, where 60% of men thought they could do that. And so that kind of says it all. That kind of tells us that we have a lot of work to do, but we can. And there are so many talented women out there, staying present, staying engaged, staying committed, and certainly getting up and doing it every single day. Carol, thank you, and I agree. There's a way to go. And those are the factors that shape women in the law. So yes, there are more specific factors. And we can discuss the confluence of factors, I think, that really shape women in the law. You know, I look at this in three large buckets because we have, since the pandemic, experienced so much change and so much transformation in the legal industry, particularly all men and women in the legal industry. But particularly, there's been an effect on how we've practiced law here. And the first is really looking at the major advances in technology and how we're using it as lawyers and how we're staying connected with one another, how we're advocating for our clients, how we're literally doing our jobs now that the pandemic forced us not to have that personal connection where you're sitting or you're presenting a case in a courtroom or you're sitting across a table from someone. Instead, we're on a computer and we're in these virtual meetings and we're doing this work. A major change and advancement there. The second big confluence of factors to consider is the blurring of both home and the work environment. You know, people are working remotely and there are many of us are still in hybrid months where we're working remotely at least part-time. I think that's going to stay, Lucy. I think that's here for us to work with well into the future. And with that blurring of the boundaries between work and home, that has really made a lot of change. And for women in particular, you know, one of the things that I think it proved is that women could work from home, they could be extraordinarily productive and efficient and get the job done, and it gave them some flexibility, or at least some women flexibility, to be able to run their lives at home and control their lives a little better, while still being successful as a lawyer. So tremendous amount of change there. And the third big bucket, I think, that has really affected all of us in the legal industry and the way we've practiced law is the great issues of social unrest that we've experienced for the last several years, that at times has really threatened to divide us. And we have also created real opportunities through those difficult times to understand one another, and to take on those issues and learn how to communicate with one another and support one another. So just looking at, you know, the advancement of technology alone, there are a couple of things that I always think about when I'm mentoring or I'm working with young lawyers today. And one of them is I always worry now that we are so rooted in conducting our business online and these little computer boxes that we've lost. Have you ever heard the phenomenon of the real meeting is the meeting that happens before the official meeting? And that's, you know, that's that meeting that happens when you walk into a partner's office and you have the opportunity to chat with him or her for a few minutes before the official meeting begins. Or when you're waiting for the meeting to begin in a conference room, you have the opportunity to exchange some free conversation. And you really get to know in an organic way the people you're working with. You know, walking down the hallway, Lucy, and saying hello and being able to chit chat with you for a few minutes and finding out what's going on in your life. And it places you in my mind. And it allows people to bond and connect in a different way. That we, you know, doing the work on the computer and with the advancement of technology has been eroded a little bit. We don't have those organic meetings as much as we used to because we're all over the place. We're scattered. We're both remote and we're in the office. And so I think it's really incumbent upon, you know, especially young lawyers, boy, you've got to prepare for those meetings, you've got to seek them out. You've got to seek out that connectivity. And it turns out women are pretty good at staying connected, you know, and no big surprise there. But it really is important for particularly young women who are advancing and wanting to become leaders in this industry, wanting to really experience leadership, to stay connected and do that by thinking about it a little harder. It takes a little bit more work now because we don't have those organic meetings as often as we used to. But we can develop those leadership skills. And women as lawyers have and are doing a wonderful job of doing that. So there are a lot of changes. >> Today to learn about the role of women in justice reform, we have an amazing mentor and friend, Attorney Carol Starkey and partner at Goncabano. And Carol, thank you for that insight. But I know you've done a lot of work in justice reform and you have a particular approach and insight as to why you believe justice reform is important. And would you please share with us your insight? >> Of course. And thank you for the question and the opportunity to talk about criminal justice reform. Because, you know, I see working towards criminal justice reform to make our criminal system more equitable and more fair as one of the most significant diversity, equity, and inclusion issues of today. And I really believe that. I'll give you an example here. In Massachusetts, we often pride ourselves as being one of the lowest incarceration rates of the country of our prison population overall. But, you know, when you break that down and you examine certain Boston neighborhoods where there are large populations of people of color, those black and brown residents who make up about 17% of the overall population are over 50% of the prison population in Massachusetts. And that tells us there's a lot of work to be done. That tells us that there's something wrong with our criminal justice system that deserves our attention, that deserves constant reform and rethinking. And, you know, when we think about incarcerating people, it's not only costly, Lucy, on a financial basis. It costs about $65,000 for a taxpayer to incarcerate one person for a year. But it's socially expensive. Because when you take someone and you incarcerate them and you take them away from their family, from their community, from their work environment, you're really pulling them out of the thread of that family, out of the thread of that community. And if you pull enough threads in any given community, you can end up with no community at all or a very dysfunctional community. And that's what really makes it worth looking at what we're doing in terms of our incarceration rates. And there's lots of great-- here's the good news. Massachusetts and the Commonwealth is filled with a lot of bright minds and a lot of people with a lot of energy who are thinking about this all the time. And thinking about ways to address it. And so there are lots of good issues and good ways to address criminal reform. I can give you a couple of examples of that. You know, we've had lots of discussion about doing things differently with bail reform. And that is, for those who aren't familiar with the criminal justice system, bail is used to ensure the return of an individual into court, for future court appearances, when they've been charged with a particular crime. Now, oftentimes, you know, it was the case that an arbitrary bail amount would be set for many people who were poor, who were just impoverished. And they couldn't make that bail. And so they would end up going to jail. And that made it very, very difficult for them to ever get beyond, you know, ever get beyond that. We could eliminate cash bail for individuals who don't pose a fight risk, who aren't a danger to our community. There are other ways that we can look at reform, such as re-entry programs that we've talked about. You know, people who have paid their debt to society. And to decrease the recidivism rate, not have them come back in and out of the system, really allowing them some retraining, vocational training, getting some programs together to give folks an opportunity to get a job so that when they get out, they have something that they can go to and really give back to community and have a chance to make it and not re-offend and end up back into the system. So there are a whole host of things that those are just two very short examples. One I've been personally working on, and I have worked on within the last year, and I think you and I have talked about this, is the civil asset forfeiture reform laws that I've been involved with. And, you know, this is a dirty little secret that not a lot of people know, but all of the DA's offices and the AG's office has the power to civilly seize assets and keep them, even if the rightful owner is ultimately exonerated or the criminal charges are ultimately dropped. It's the process by which property, having some connection to a crime, is seized by authorities and forfeited to the state. And, unfortunately, here in Massachusetts, we have laws that allow the government to do that with the lowest burden possible, and that's by a probable cause burden. And in all practical terms, what that means is that a lot of people, poor people in particular, have their money seized by authorities and really have no ability to fight that, and the government doesn't have to show any higher standard than a probable cause, which in all practical purposes means people lose their money and their assets or their cars or their property. So this is an area that we really wanted to see some reform in, and I was appointed on the commission, the legislative commission to study our civil asset forfeiture laws. We did file a report last summer, and a bill was devised, and hopefully we'll be addressing that again next year. - Carol, I think this is an extremely interesting topic, worth another visit to our program. We have two minutes left, but-- - Oh, jeez, that went by so fast. - I do would like to, we would like to care more about the asset forfeiture. I don't know that we have time to cover the Massachusetts Legal Assistance Corporation. - Yes, oh gosh. - If you would like to talk about that. - Certainly. Well, all I can say about working on the board of MLAC, which is the Massachusetts Legal Assistance Corporation, it is really a phenomenal corporation that is charged with funding all of the legal service organizations, both regional and state, here in the Commonwealth. And so it is terrific work, people in those legal organizations, particularly since the pandemic, are doing a yeoman service in terms of servicing, giving legal aid and legal advice to folks of low income who can't afford a lawyer. And Lucy, they're still having to turn so many people away from these legal organizations, even though we're raising or attempting to raise as much money as we can, and reminding the legislature each and every year how important legal aid is. - Thank you, Carol. And for our guests today, we have been learning about justice reform from Carol Starkey, a partner at Concabinoe. This episode will be saved at www.discoveringthelaw.com. It will also appear on YouTube and in the studio blog. Carol, we're very grateful that you're here. Do you have any last takeaways that you would like our audience to have? We don't have a lot of time. - I know you don't. I just want to thank you for having me.