To the newsmakers podcast, I'm Billie Hollowell, and this is a show where we go behind the headlines every day to bring you an interview with a pastor, entertainer, politician, or other notable news figure. And this is a show, again, it's daily, but it's based on our weekly TV show, which is also called Newsmakers. You can watch it on the CBN News channel and also on our YouTube page. And on this show, every day, we dive deep. It's a little more longer form with one of the people who you will often see on our Newsmakers show or across the CBN News platforms. On today's newsmakers, Robert Morris accused her Cindy Klemishire joins us to share her story and her faith journey that and more on today's newsmakers. Here is Cindy. The scandal involving Robert Morris continues to reverberate throughout Christian circles. The Gateway Church founder resigned amid allegations he molested a 12-year-old girl in the 1980s. His departure came two days after issuing a statement admitting to, quote, "inappropriate sexual behavior with a young lady." Morris added that he had confessed, "repented, stepped out of ministry to receive counseling and has since walked in purity." Today we bring you our conversation with his accuser, Cindy Klemishire. Cindy, I know the last few weeks, the last two weeks in particular have been very chaotic. A lot has come out in media about your story. You have shared very openly, what has it been like for you since your story came out so broadly? It has definitely been busy. I have lots of messages that I try to read all my private messages that I've been receiving. I've done, as you know, quite a few interviews. In the beginning it was maybe a little bit rattling because I haven't ever had that kind of exposure to media, but I also just have such a conviction about doing this. I have an incredible amount of support, and I think that's what's kept me going. You have shared over the years, you have told people your story over the years. This obviously is a different level of that because it's been picked up by many outlets. As you said, you've done a number of interviews. What changed in you, and maybe nothing did change, but what led you most recently to share so openly knowing that it was going to have a bigger footprint this time? Well, like you said, I have been sharing. I think I started out just when I was in my 20s, sharing with friends or when something might come up, share my story, not even fully grasping what my story was at that time and really dug into counseling and just focused on trying to understand what happened to me because of the connection with Robert and Debbie and the family and the family closeness and friends along with church. Sure, I was probably about 35 when I really understood the depth and magnitude of what Robert really did, not just to me, but to my family with all the grooming, and then of course the sexual abuse and the emotional abuse, the mental, I mean, just it's every part of your being is manipulated during that kind of abuse. So at 35 when I was able to actually accept the term sexual molestation and that he abused me because it sounded so mean and I would tell my counselor, but he wasn't mean to me and she said it doesn't have to be mean and I heard the term actually on Oprah that instead of calling them child molesters, we should call them child seducers. And when I heard all that description, that's when I started being a lot more vocal about my story. And like most believers, you don't want to do anything that's going to tarnish the name of God and you're not going to, you don't want to tarnish the church, you don't want to hurt other believers, you don't want to, you know, cause another person to not come to Jesus. And so I never wanted it to be a big exposing, you know, I just wanted someone in leadership somewhere to take him out of the pulpit because we did not feel as a family that that's where he should be in leadership, when you can't even fill out a document honestly about working in your own church nursery, should you really be in the pulpit. And so anytime he would speak in a church that we were associated with or going to in any way, either I would or my parents or my sister would go and confront leadership and talk to them and explain to them what happened to our family and to me. Not once has any leadership stood up and said, this isn't biblical, you should not be in leadership. Honestly, you should be gracious to this family and not be, that you're not in prison. But no one has taken him out of leadership ever considered it, it sounds like. So as I've told my story along the way, I met someone who's now retired pastor. He was been retired for a couple of years, he heard my story and he was a strong advocate in the Southern Baptist Convention to expose clergy that are abusive, especially to children. And he has a friend that deparsens the lady that has the Wartburg Watch post or blog. And he encouraged me to reach out to her and share my story because they still work together to expose and get this out of church, really should be out of everywhere. We shouldn't have it at all in our world. But anything we can all do to work together and statistics show that people that abuse children typically don't stop. So that's always a concern as well. Can I ask you something because you, so you agreed you did that interview and that interview went very wide. Did you have any idea because what you were describing is a situation where you and your family were going, when you were seeing that this particular pastor was out there, Robert Morris is out there getting a new position or going somewhere, you would go out there and you would let people know and you said that people, nobody really stepped up to the plate to stop that at all along that way. So did you have any idea that when you did this particular interview, that it was going to have such a monumental effect? I mean, he has since resigned from his position. It is one of the biggest faith stories of the year at this point. Did you have any idea it would be that big of a story? I mean, I did. I think because his church is one of, if not the largest mega church in the U.S. and any time you have that kind of publicity in anything, I think something like this is going to cause an uproar. I didn't do it for that reason. I did it because for such a time as this, I don't, all I can explain is God's timing has aligned. I would never have been prepared for this myself any sooner, I don't think. So I'm 54 years old and I just, I know that my maturity level, just being a mom of, you know, trying to protect my own children, I could not have walked this path that I'm walking today any sooner, I don't think. So I do believe that God's timing is part of it. And I do believe that he's going to use it probably to reveal even bigger things. I don't know. There's things that are starting to come out of the woodwork. So we'll see. I just hope and pray there aren't a whole lot of other, you know, victims, but that's part of it too is if there are, get help, come on, you know, let's, let's get on the journey to recovery because it is lifelong. Well, and many people, you know, are afraid to speak out. They're afraid to share one thing with you and your family is you have, again, you have openly talked about this, you've tried to get people to listen. And sometimes it takes hearing other people sharing their story for people to come out and share what happened to them as you were just saying, you know, I want to talk about your faith in a moment because that is a part of this story that we have not heard a lot about, but it was something I immediately noticed seeing your interviews, hearing you speak out. When, when your interview came out though, before we get there, the interview comes out. There was a response from Robert Morris in which he talked about this past incident. He sort of made it sound. He used the term young lady, I believe twice in his statement. You've commented on this, but I have to ask you about it. After all that has gone on, all of the conversations you've had in seeing that statement, what went through your head and your heart when you saw that language? Well, the first thing is, I have a 12-year-old grandson. He is not a young man. He is barely a pre-teen, you know, I mean, he wants to think he's a grown-up, a 12-year-old boy, but he is not. I have a six-year-old granddaughter. I can't even imagine. It just rips my heart out thinking about her being in that situation. I have a son that's now 19, that when he was, I think, around 13 or 14, someone was trying to groom him and that person, a man, I was able to help some other parents be aware of what grooming looked like. And about three months later, the police were involved and he ended up in prison. So I was not a young lady. It was a crime. I was a little girl. All I kept thinking when I heard young lady was, I want to consider myself a young lady now as a grandmother, but at 12, I was not a young lady. It was, of course, it makes me a little angry, but at the same time, it's just the whole deception of all of it. So I wasn't shocked, but I definitely did not like that term. How you talked before about the effect on your family? Talk a little bit about the effect in them finding out about this. This obviously went on from the time you were 12. Your story says 12 to 16, correct me if I'm wrong on that. But once your family found out, how did this affect them not just immediately, but throughout the decades? How much time did you say we have? I say that with joking, but I'm not joking. There's too many facets of that. I actually told when I was 17, so it was like March of 1987 and my birthday is in January. So I know people have tried to figure out how old I was, like 12 years and how many months or whatever, but it doesn't really matter. I was 12, I was not a teenager yet, and I told when I was 17 and it did go all the way through my 16th, you know, through the full year of being 16, I don't recall if we saw each other during the year of 1987, those first two and a half months. But when I did tell, you know, one of the things I'm sure you read was he told me the very first time, you can't tell anyone because it will ruin everything. And as a 12 year old, I had no idea what that meant. And as I grew and got older, I still didn't really know what it meant because when I told, I felt like it ruined everything in my life, it ruined everything in my family's life. All of them, they were very close family friends and so was the other family that I involved in telling the lady that was my mother's close friend and her kids were our age. People have been a little confused about that story, but my dad was devastated. You know, Robert has a sermon that's been circulating the clip about how he looked for little girls and there's little girls need the love of their father and they need their be hugged and they need certain things and if they don't get that, they're going to look somewhere else and then so he was describing what he looked for and how he prayed on little girls is what he did in that sermon. But I have when I heard that, I immediately said that wasn't me. My father is still a very loving kind man. He was was and still is an incredible dad and leader in our community. And I grew up in a wonderful home, wonderful grandparents, wonderful aunts and uncles and cousins and I was not lacking in any way. I was just a 12 year old little girl that didn't know any better that didn't know that someone would do something like this. So you can only imagine the devastation. I mean, my parents devastated the other everybody's families kind of fell apart as far as friendships. There was no more get togethers with any of those people. Another family that couple got divorced and I felt like I was responsible because I told them, it's a lot to take on. It's an unbelievably heavy weight on multiple levels, especially for somebody who was so young going through it and then carrying something like that to being 54 years old and having it become very public. And now you're talking about this, but the thing that strikes me about this story made a lot of things obviously, but one big one is that you've talked a lot about God and faith and you very clearly held on to your faith. A lot of people in these situations do not. How have you held on to faith and to God so intensely despite what has happened? I mean, I have to attribute that to my parents and how we were raised and I mean, we sat around the table and read the Bible, you know, after dinner we, I mean, my dad taught us about having a personal relationship with Jesus and even though I have not been actively involved in any one particular church, I have attended church regularly at different times throughout my life, but not necessarily been actively a member, that sort of thing. But I have never stopped praying, I've never stopped reading my Bible, I mean, it truly has been about my relationship with Jesus and I like I said before, I don't know how anybody could get through any of this without that. Yeah, yeah, and I mean, what would you say to those, there are people out there who have faced, you know, maybe not the same situation you did, but similar situations or abuse or they feel, you know, there's a very negative feeling towards the church because of how they were treated in some way, what would you say to those who maybe have turned away from faith as a result of that, they've sort of maybe, you know, blamed the church or obviously understandably in some of those situations, the people involved and they've allowed it to maybe push them from faith. What would you say to them? You know, I think that I can understand 100% why they feel that way and that's when you just have to go in and be personal with Jesus, don't, it's not the Lord, it's not Jesus, that is, it's not the Holy Spirit, that is not who, that's not who's doing that. Those are people and those are organizations and, you know, sadly, we all fall short, right? I think if we could get back to what Jesus did when he was on earth and how he ministered to people, our churches would look a lot different and I hate it that the church often misses that opportunity way too often, but if people could just go back to, you know, pull out your Bible, just even if, you know, read the red letters or whatever, but that's not Jesus. Jesus loves them and Jesus is here to bind up the brokenhearted so, you know, just talking to you right now and seeing your past interviews, you're so calm, you're so collected in all of this, you seem very at, at peace being able to address what has happened, a very unpeaceful, chaotic situation, you know, how have you been able to deal with maybe some of the comments? I know you're getting a lot of support. I also know there are people commenting and saying things and assuming things and claiming things that I'm sure are frustrating or difficult to read. How are you dealing with that part of this dynamic? Well, I have not tried to over read. I haven't read everything that's out there. I haven't watched every podcast. I haven't watched every anything. I've tried to just stay focused on what I feel I'm supposed to do in this and I have tried to read every single personal message that has come into me through social media or a few emails. The ones that are hateful, I just honestly, I believe there's probably so much hurt in them that they don't even understand how I could do this. Some of them might be fake, I don't even know with technology today, but the ones that I think there's people out there that are hurting because they believed in this man. They've been following him, they've listened to his sermons, and if they're angry that I am rocking their boat, so that's okay. I'm not worried about that. I can't fix that. I can't control how people react or respond. I just know that the overwhelming number of victims and survivors that have reached out to me and told me, "Thank you, you're my voice. This has given me strength." I don't feel shame anymore. The shame that is on victims for life is so heavy. For anybody, even if it's one person to reach out to me and say thank you for being my voice and I see myself differently, it's worth all of it. My final question for you, just you've been so generous with your time here. You have an attorney now who is, I'm assuming, helping you navigate some of these things. Where does this go next? What is the next phase of this? What are you going to be dedicating your time to in addressing this further? I don't really know how all of the things will work out. I really don't have any legal recourse, which is part of why I gave my name, why not give my name. I have nothing to hide here. I've done nothing wrong, and so that was why would I hide. I do know I want to help other victims. I want people to be free of shame, and really, it's a lifelong journey. I know I will have more to process even after this part of the journey, but anything I can do to support people that are on that same journey as me, I want to do. I also have a very strong position on we need to change the statute of limitations across the country. Not just in my state or Texas, I live in Oklahoma. It happened in both. People have reached out, "Oh, there's no statute of limitations in Texas anymore." Well, it's not retroactive. I've been contacted by some of the, some people down there, representative in Texas that would like to have some input on how my story could maybe help with that. So I want to be active in any way I can with changing the laws to protect the victims and not the predators, because I feel like they are continuing to protect the predator when they change the law, but you can't start, you can't speak about it, even if it happened to you in your life. So that just doesn't work for me. And, you know, I believe in forgiveness. I believe that Robert can still repent. I believe, you know, I don't believe there's been repentance because it's been continued to seat, but that's between him and the Lord. So I am not one that says he can't be forgiven and he can't change, but I don't believe anybody that's done anything like this or really any other sexual immorality, biblically should be in the pulpit. Is there a Christian when it takes place? Well, and you've been, and you have been, you know, again, you and your family, hearing that detail of you going and saying, Hey, this is what happened to me. Hey, this is what happened to my sister. Hey, to not ever, you know, have that, purportedly not ever have that be addressed in any significant way is, is alarming. I mean, there's no other word for it other than alarming. And I think again, you speaking out about this, it can help other people who have gone through similar things. It was Cindy. I appreciate you taking the time joining us today, sharing your story, particularly your faith story, hearing, hearing how you've held on to God. Really appreciate it today. Well, I appreciate your time and just, again, pray for all the other victims out there that they can, they can find their faith to again, if they've lost it or just be stronger in it. It's important to note that Morris's statement did not mention the name or age of the individual with whom he had inappropriate sexual behavior, and he has since remained silent after leaving Gateway Church. As for the church, elders issued an initial statement that Morris had been, quote, open and forthright about a moral failure he had over 35 years ago. That statement added that Morris also went through a two year restoration process and stepped out of ministry to undergo counseling during that time. It ended with the church commenting that the matter had been, quote, properly disclosed to church leadership. Then as additional claims became public, Gateway released a new statement calling the allegations, quote, deeply disturbing and committing to combat abuse. The church has hired a law firm to conduct what it calls a thorough and independent inquiry. Most notably, this new statement admits, quote, "regrettably prior to Friday, June 14th, the current elders did not have all the facts. The board of elders is deeply committed to walking in integrity and finding the truth. CBN News will continue to cover this story as new details emerge." That's all for today's Newsmakers Podcast. Be sure to tune in for the next episode of the show and also head over to the CBN News YouTube channel and the CBN News channel to watch Newsmakers every week. We'll see you soon. [MUSIC] [BLANK_AUDIO]
