Celebrate World Ranger Day with this “From the Vault” Big Blend Radio interview with Jim and Gayle Sleznick. We recorded this conversation onsite in late spring 2015, on a visit to San Benito County, Central California, the eastern gateway destination to Pinnacles National Park. It only took a few minutes to find out that they have one incredible life story to tell about living and working in various National Park units.
Gayle’s park story begins in Death Valley, where her father worked, and where her mother had to travel out to Riverside, California to give birth to her. Jim’s park story started when he was a teenager, on family vacations in parks like Yosemite and Yellowstone. His park career began with a summer job in Crater Lake, where he met Gayle. They married when he began his full-time park ranger job in Lake Mead. Together for over 55 years, they lived and worked in several parks including the Gila Cliff National Monument, Virgin Islands National Park, Yosemite National Park, Lava Lake Volcano National Park, and beyond.
Jim eventually retired from Pinnacles National Park, and they moved about 45 minutes northwest of the park, to the historic village of San Juan Bautista, which is on the Juan Bautista de Anza National Historic Trail. They helped to create the local Anza Trail, a beautiful hiking trail that overlooks the valley. We recently learned that Jim passed away at the age of 91, on April 21, 2024. May he rest in peace. Our hearts go out to Gayle and his family. He is missed.
Big Daily Blend
Park Ranger Insider: Jim and Gayle Sleznick
Welcome to Big Blend Radio's Parks and Travel podcast covering parks, public lands, and historic landmarks across America and around the world. Hey everyone, this is Lisa and Nancy with the Big Blend Radio and we're sitting with Jim and Gail Slesnick in San Juan Batista, which is on the one Batista de Anza National Historic Trail. It's a beautiful stop at beautiful historic village. In fact, it is a village of history and definitely a destination to come out, especially if you're going to Pinnacles National Park up in Central California. But it's time to talk about people in parks and rangers, superintendents, and people who were born in parks or come from a family of park rangers. So let's start with you Gail. Gail, you were almost born in Death Valley, right? Well, it was the location where my parents lived. So basically that was my first home in 1939. And the park itself had just been formed. It was a national monument at the time. And there were five permanent rangers that was an accountant. Okay. So he was in the office taking care of. And the CCCs had been brought in to build the roads and trails. And that was the staff at that time. And in the summer, we went up to Wild Rose Canyon, which is about a 3000 foot level, considered there was an air conditioning at that time. And I was born in June. So that was my first home. Oh my gosh. And mother went out to Riverside to have me, but back in Death Valley for. So can you handle the desert really well? I do love the desert. And we have had a chance to live in the desert with our career. And there's something very clean, special, quiet. You get used to the heat, but the mornings and evenings are just spectacular. And the stars. And everyone Gail is an artist. Just you do beautiful work. And you'll see her work out here in San Juan Batista. I know you've got a show currently in Salinas on Yosemite National Park, which is interesting because your dad was born on the Centennial Day. The birthday of the National Park. August 25th. And I had painted, well, I've painted in most of the parks, but I had gone back to Yosemite after we left, after we'd lived there and painted for 35 years. So I did have a corral painting of Yosemite. So those are in honor of all the National Parks with their hundreds celebration. It's exciting. And Jim, let's talk about you because I know you've been a superintendent. You've done a number of roles in National Parks. What was your very first National Park experience? I know she beats you to it. I mean, being, you know, being a baby in a park. As a teenager, the family visited National Parks, Yellowstone, things like that. I decided that I needed a summer job. So I applied for and received a summer job at Crater Lake National Park. It was a great experience for a young man coming out of Chicago. So in 1958, I went as a summer ranger to Crater Lake, came back in 1959 as a summer ranger, and finally got through all the university stuff and everything. And in 1960, I took a summer job at Grand Canyon. Wow. And while at Grand Canyon, all my applications for a permanent job with the National Park Service came through. I got a telephone call from Lake Mead National Recreation Area, and they offered me a full-time permanent job. I said goodbye to Crater, Grand Canyon, and took lodging space at Lake Mead. And it was kind of grand. I was, you know, a rookie five ranked GS5 Ranger, and they had me at a place called Temple Bar. It was away from the world, and hot. But all I had was my Stesson hat and a pair of blue jeans for uniform. But, you know, you get a what? And your quarters were a trailer. Now, did you have the D Park Service hat with the Sequoia little tiny Sequoia coat? Smoky the Bear hat. Oh, the Smoky the Bear hat. Yeah, yeah, Stesson hats. And later they came up with straw hats, which doesn't mean if you're in an environment that makes that you need a cool head. But Lake Mead was kind of different because I was expecting something a little more dramatic. But it was a great learning place. I spent three and a half years, I think around three and a half years at Lake Mead. We got married at Lake Mead, but we met at Crater Lakes. He didn't know why you kept coming back. Okay, okay, wait, now. Okay, so you're at Lake Mead, okay, which is now one of the top visited National Parks. It's a great area, but when we were there, it was, you know, it just was kind of an orphan, a national recreation area, was not a national park. But it has really, you know, the government has put in a lot of effort, you could employees. It's a great experience. And then, of course, the water goes up and down. Yeah. So it's quite quite an experience to do your patrols and everything when the water is up and then there's water is down, you know. So it's engine. Let's let's talk about how you both met because I remember this story the last time we met you when we drove up on the Anza trail behind your house that you're a big, you know, you guys made that happen. I remember getting out of the car and standing in a cow patty on that. That's cool. And everybody was like, well, welcome to Anthony of County. I thought I was gonna stand on a tree stump and it was a catty. But how did walks ride in it? Well, you know, it was all good. That's where, you know, especially wearing sandals, it's always best. Gail, how did you meet James? I was working the visitor center as a telephone operator and information receptionist and the first year. And in 57, the, what is it, the family, the anyway, so no longer the children, if your parents, the work, the nepotism, that's right, the nepotism law came in. Something happened in Washington, D.C. So if you were a son or daughter of a National Parks Service employee, you couldn't work in the park. Oh, so I had to go work up at the lodge. Well, that's the year. First year, Jim came in. I was working at, behind the gift shop, gift period. She was, she was the attractive summer employee at the shop. And I was the young ranger. And there it is. In uniform. We had a cooperation between the, you know, the lodge and the park service that they wanted the employees that worked at the lodge, put the slides through. That's what they had to be done manually at that time. So the girls behind the curi-counter would put the slides through as the ranger mattress would give the talk. Oh, so for the park ranger and so I'm pushing them through. And he's would say, oh, thank you very much and leave it. I thought, well, he must have a girl at home or somewhere because there's no winking. There's no, go out, you know. So, okay, fine. About the end of the summer, finally, he stopped and took a look, I guess. Put the lights on. But, finally, he wanted a drink of cold water. No. So then that turned into hiking them up and down all the, I mean, there's a beautiful hiking park and you go up every lava mountain in the, you know, around the area. So, so he was from the city and I was, my dad was the assistant superintendent at that time. So your dad was his boss? Well, kind of. Yeah, that's why I only get in this way. And that's also why I was sort of like, well, maybe that's why it took a while, you know, go mess around with the boss's daughter. So dates were hikes instead of going on to dinner, you guys went on. Oh, there was no place to go. The biggest part, the biggest outing was always to go to Ashland to the Shakespearean Festival. And you had to get a lot of permission. I was living under the umbrella, excuse me, not at home, but under the umbrella of the dormitories where the lodge, concessionaire kids lived. So I had to get all this permission to go out with Jim to go to see the Shakespearean play, because it was a long distance drive right in the lake to Ashland. And so you got home at two or three in the morning and you did not end that dormit two or more. Yeah, you see, now that's when you just sneak out. Well, you could not. It was just the way it was. It was the way it was back then. So then you both got married 55 years ago. Yeah, well, congratulations. Wow. Okay, so what's the secret to being married for 55 years? Right. Oh my gosh. You're so. Well, when you're working in pretty park areas, it becomes a very comfortable place to be married. Yeah, I know. I think, you know, of our time, divorce was not in the mix. I mean, it was just not there. And as you say, we were in small areas. We had to rely on each other and the small community where you were in. There was just, I mean, it was survival, you know, in a lot of the parks. The interesting thing, Jim said, Lake Mead was his first position. My dad's second position from Death Valley was to Lake Mead, National Recreation Area. Wow. And that's when the Boulder Dam had just been built and the recreation area was formed behind the dam. And so that was where we moved. Of course, soon after that, the war hit and we went, you know, we went into the Navy, but we went back into the park service at Lake Mead. So I had been there before and then went back after I got out of college. And I was in lifeguard for the summer. And I lifeguard at Lake Mead. So you got to go up in those little towers and see if anyone was going to stand out there in the heat. Yes, I love the heat. Did you ever have to rescue someone? We did. We had long paddle boats that we could get on. There were a lot of children. There were a lot of, I mean, just families. And not, the rescues were pretty much like, just grab, you know, you're tiring. I can see, just hang on to the board for a while. Oh, okay. I mean, there wasn't anything dramatic anyway. Like the ocean is a little different. No, no. It's a very quiet, like, beautiful water. So when you're a lifeguard there, are you under the park service? I had a patch on my black suit. I'd say a girl. Maybe because you lived in in very serene nature areas, that's why you could stay married so long. Well, it is. Yeah, it really is. I mean, there's less stress. Well, you're together. All our friends joyingly say after we left, I mean, one of our areas was the Hila cliff dallings. And we were. Oh, yeah, in New Mexico. We did not have. Yeah, you're on the boonies now. So every night was a candle-like dinner. Nice. Well, we know about that. Today's day, we still have candle-like dinners. We're sitting in my candles right now. I mean, it's just. We had GSA candles. They run for eight hours at GSA candle. Oh, wow. Exactly eight hours. So the Hila cliff dallings, I mean, that was one of the first monuments, I think, was declared in 1903, in 1977. In 1913. It was one of the United States' first wilderness area. Yeah, the first wilderness area. Under the Forest Service. Right. And then this little pocket of a story about that assignment was that I got a telephone call when I was in Lake Mead. We read a big one. And if I was interested in a job and Hila cliff dallings, and I said, where is Hila cliff dallings? This is without internet and all that, right? I know, you know, we're in a telephone booth and he's talking. So the guy I'm talking to in Santa Fe, he says, well, it's in Silver City, New Mexico. I was too embarrassed to say, where is Silver City? I said, I'm a water ranger at Lake Mead. So I said, let me talk to Gail and let you know. So I drove, I went back through to headquarters and only could find was a mimeograph sheet of paper. The Hila cliff dallings was all about. So I came down to Willow Beach home. And I said, Gail, we've been offered a job at Hila cliff dallings. They want a married couple, no kids, because of school problems. Yeah, 14 river crossings. Yeah, it was way, you know, 50 miles from town under roads. Yeah, now you've got a kind. Well, anyway, it was, that was the way we kind of kept going, you know, it was just a great time at the cliff dallings. And we met interesting people. I finally got a ranger to help me. I finally got a maintenance man to help me. Wow. And then they transferred me to the Virgin Islands. Wow, okay. So you're in the lake. That's a recreation. Then you go to Hila cliff dwellings. And then the superintendent in the Virgin Islands called me up and said, I need a ranger who knows about boating like me and paperwork at the cliff dallings. It was all the only one there, paper work myself, and maybe a little help from Gail, every once in a while. But they offered me this job. And I drove 50 miles back to Gail and said, the job offer, you know, and we had crank phones. It didn't work. Well, that don't work. It's a crank phone, but we tried to put a new system in. That's a whole story of its own. And so we got the job. Everybody said, goodbye. We went to Silver City and then worked our way on dirt roads to the muggy own range. Oh, yeah, that's beautiful. And we still didn't know where we were. Because Regent had said, well, just look for Doc Campbell. He's the rancher down there. Yeah, I've heard that name. Yeah, we're sitting on top of the ridge. And here comes a cowboy on a horseback. And I said, hey, and we were in a car, you know, pulling on a trailer. A little u-hole. But, you know, and the Hila rivers right down below. Oh, I know you were on this. So anyway, the cowboy says, well, Doc Campbell's way down there. So, oh, thank you. He brought off and we took the four-wheel drive and bounced down to the Hila. Well, you stopped at them. Fortunately, there was a construction truck in the area. And I said, I'm looking for Doc Campbell. Where is he? And he says, the driver says, we'll take you there. So we left a car on this side of the river. Because it was flooding. So he had a big truck to get us to the seven river crossings to Doc's. Wow. And then there was seven more up to the monument from Doc Campbell. Yeah. So, then the ranch boy, the young boy at the ranch there, Doc's son, brought the international harvester pay truck four-wheel drive. Look at the corn binder is what we call it. And we unloaded our cardboard in case stuff. And moved in to a trailer. No, but the trailer they have been pulled in early. They have been placed there, but they weren't set. And they, we have to dig the septic tank. We got it. And so we stayed at Doc had a little cabin. And so, that's when it got acquainted with Campbell. I think he's related to Bodie, Weber, chef Bodie, and Diana. I remember something about that. Well, Doc Campbell came from the East Coast. And you know, Silver City, Silver City was a big place for tuberculosis. And he had a lot of asthma or something. So the weather was perfect for him. His wife was Campbell. There was a Campbell Lions cattle company that owned that property. And of course, they get married Campbell Campbell. But it was totally different, totally different Campbell family. So they lived out there as a wilderness family. And there were four children between Doc and Ida. And those kids do run the ranch today. Okay, Dennis. Yeah. And I know the name Ida Campbell too. And what we've done, we've been to Silver City in a moment, a number of times. And he looked wellings. We've been to twice. And actually an artist, Victoria Chick, is on our show just about every month talking about what's going on. It's a huge art time now. Yes, it has developed into a fabulous. Beautiful. And so now that we're back home in Tucson, we'll be hanging out there a little bit more. But it's beautiful, that wilderness area. Now it's the trail of mountain spirits, that road. And it goes all the way around through, when you go from Silver City and you go through the Mogaeons and you go to Hila Cliff Dwellings, then you go around and through the membranes, and you come back. And it's this beautiful trail that you could go through. It's not by Lake Powell? Not Lake Powell. No, Lake Powell is by that that's that's up in the banking. Well, not Lake Powell. Fort Bay. There's a lake out there. Robert? Lake Robert. Yes, that's it. Well, the nice thing, Jim was involved with the park. And we were so far out, you know, having children was not in the mix at that time. So I started working with the kids and their Doc Campbell had been the 180 day appointee for the park service. And and the only people that came out there came by the Chamber of Commerce four-wheel drive caravan. And that's about the way the people came to see the park. And they, when was this? We were there in June. 63, 64. 63 was all come married. And 63, 64, yeah. Now they have electric cars out there, the Rangers. That's right. Well, all right. Well, they have bridges to go over also. But anyway, the first time we've ever seen an electric car being used by a Ranger. Yes, it's a Hila Cliff Dwellings. This is a terrible. Yeah, well, there was, so anyway, Doc was, would pack hunters in the winter and Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts and families in the summer. And with the onslaught of them putting in a new road, they were, you know, at least from part of it was paved from the Sapio to his ranch. He said, I can't handle the people that we're coming in with the park. So that's how we suddenly were designated to go to Hila. So with Jim up at the park, I started working with the kids and packing mules. And so there were sometimes the, it's from artists to, okay, wait, let's just talk from moving slides to bring a life saver hard. I like that. Yeah. But they had about 97 pack, you know, between mules and horses for it to. So that, and those went up, you know, they put them up. So I have been all over that wilderness area. I have to bring the horses in and we had the hunters and we packed them and the kids were pretty much running the honey camps during the winter. But Ida was teaching them, they were off to school and then into college. And so who was being able to home at the time is, you know, Ida or Isabel or so back into the wilderness. Your story about the electric cart reminded me of something at the cliff dwellings. And that was, we had the rivers. Yeah, that's right. Okay. So I'd drive to the park across the water, winter and summer. In the winter time, I'd drive up to the park headquarters, park the car, do my chores, time to go home. The truck was frozen to the ground. Oh, no way. I had driven through the water. Oh my gosh. Okay. So what to do? The car wouldn't go. Frozen. We had a propane tank. Oh my gosh. And he did the brake drums with that. That's scary. I think it would explode. The car was okay because it just a little bit and drive back. Now you drove back. The brakes, everything got wet. You went home the next day. You got it. It's frozen to the ground. It's frozen. Oh my gosh. Yeah. But we were on a hot spring. So we turn on the hot spring hose. All the water is hot. So the tires, all the wheels. That's right. All the hot springs out there. Our commodity was cold water. We had we had a hot water tank in the irrigation ditch outside of our trailer. And that was our hot water, our cold water supply. You kept the hot water, you had kept a drip of water going at all times. Right. And I said, I've never lived any place that I had so much water. I had to keep it running at all times. That's to keep it hot. Yes. And so that was it. You just go out and need to have hot water right at the hose. And then summer when you have a garden, we had to put it up on a stand so it cooled. You couldn't irrigate down there. You sprayed the hose. And if you had company, the first person had a very nice comfortable bath. The second one, it got hotter. And the third one, it got hotter. Oh, you had a problem with Nancy work. You remember Joy Addison, Elsie the lion born. So she worked for her in the morning canyon. So tell her about bath time. Oh, our shower. The shower was really fun because the first person who went in got warm water. Oh, it got cold in the oven. But you had to kill the snakes. Because there was always cold ones under the wooden slats over there. These were the little canvas box, some wooden slats. And there was always a cover under there. So I always got the cold shower because I didn't explain how the cold shower worked. Yeah, well, this is how both of them worked. So you've got this canvas around you for privacy, right? Right. Okay. So going up the tree and dumping the bucket of water on your head was a little African dude that was climbing through the tree. And so I was just looking down the chair. That was your shower. We didn't have enough water pressure for a shower. So we had a wonderful new trailer. We were in a 25 by seven in Lake Mead. Here we suddenly had a 40 by 10. We thought we were in heaven. But the shower wouldn't work because of pressure. So that's why you had to have a bath. Yeah. We're in hot springs water. We should have been like really great. Wow. I also stayed in this place, the cheetah's place in Mexico. Now that was fun too because I was on the top of the second floor and I go into and there's a little bathtub and there's like a shower but no water's coming out. So I go downstairs to the desk and say the shower doesn't work. Oh, you just have to lean out the window. Yeah. So you lean out the window. You yelled and they throw a hose up to you. You put it over the shower and you yell and they turn it on. That was a little shower. We were in luxury with the hot tub. Well, both drawings were one of the they were a real rare experience. But that's where you know a single ranger married you were 50 miles from town. And more people came to visit us because they thought oh they would pour a couple their way out there in the middle. But you're enjoying it. And here we have so we have three sets company at one time. And they were sleeping out on the you know all around the trailer. Oh, wow. It was wild. I mean it was just and fortunately we had a very good garden in the summertime because it was two hours to town. And then back over through the rivers what I find interesting about your story is thinking about you know how they lived out in the cliff dwellings and how they farmed. And they farmed up on that mountain. You have to go down down the mountain up the mountain. Get the water to water their crops right. And then bring it back up. Well, I tried raising a farm river bottom and I built a fence and I got the corn seed and squash and whatever they were. Yeah beans and squash. The three sisters and the melons. And I put the things planted them. And I said boy am I I'm going to have a little garden for interpretive purpose. Oh, and everything sprouted okay. And so did the plants. I mean so did the animals come around. Yes. Oh, you know what's the hill of cliff dwelling. The beavers have now come back. Oh, yes. And I've been watching them on Facebook. They put the videos on them. Yeah. That's you know that little bridge you go from the little trailer visitor center. Yeah. Not the visitor center. The main one but the one right when you start to go to the cliff dwellings. And right there they're busy building their little dams and everything and their floods. You know, and that's really good for the river. There was no bridge there. Was there Jim? We played Tarzan across the river. No, we crossed. No, we did have a little foot bridge. Yeah, it's a little bit of a little bit of a bridge. But the cars were parked on the other side of the. Yeah. Yeah. And you had a little foot bridge. Yeah. And we had a we hauled up what were they, the four by sixes and to make the first steps to go up into the into the cliff. That's into the cliff dwellings. We're talking about just getting to the entrance. But we start doing the hike through. Let's let's talk. Beautiful. So you went from. Okay. It's back up. Lake Mead to to the Hila cliff dwelling. So two different. And then you go to the beach and then go to the Virgin Islands. Yeah. I mean, let's see. Our daughter was born at the Hila. Oh, in a snowstorm. I mean, why the obvious we in fact, the ranger had we had a little willies Jeep and a big pickup. And he went ahead of us and plowed out enough snow so we could get up over a compass. Can you know that? And then by the time we got down, we had to go the long way around because the snow is crazy. And I was having labor pains. And then unfortunately, she didn't come for a long time. But she goes out to the hot spring and my water's broken. But we had a forest service friend. He was the wilderness back country nature. And at his wife was in his sled a Indian. And we just became so close and came up on their trailer and said, well, we're here because I think I'm going to have a baby and we're snowed out. And we were snowed out for five days. Oh, wow. So I just stayed. And at that time, they let you just stay in the hospital like I walk up and. Yeah, nowadays you're in and out. You go back to the snow. We don't care. Wow. So that's your first child there. So then I was pregnant with our son when we moved to the Virgin Islands. See what this wilderness area does. We'll see what that was when you have no tea. We landed on St. Thomas, tired. We go to the hotel and all of a sudden we hear this racket going on. What in the hell is going on? That was our introduction to a steel band. Good morning, everybody. At 10 o'clock, they turned off the water. I said, thank goodness we did. Where's the water? They said, oh, we're using the water now. We're in a big hotel. You know, it was a very nice hotel. This is strange. But then we realized that water was a huge commodity. Good after being in the water. Yeah. Here, I had water running all the time. And the only your water was a sister. And it was water that came off your rough into a sister and underneath your house. It was like a big swimming pool. And then he'd pump it back through a chlorinating system to drink. So that was another totally different experience, tropical, the boat, you know, and going out a larger boat, obviously. So now that's how your patrol is in our boat now. Yeah. Well, she could help you because she's a lifeguard. His office was in the fort. In the fort. Of course, Christian's fort. The parks have owned a lot of buildings in St. Croix. But the insular government was in them, using them. Well, we had the fort was okay, although we did have the army. The fellow, the hire that got the who's he wants when you joined the army, you know. Across the hall from me, you know, he was out recruiting and I was at the other side doing my government stuff. But anyway, it was a real neat experience because it was the first underwater underwater. It was the first it was a it became a national monument Buck Island reef. Yeah, that's right. Kennedy's president Kennedy was the one at that time. And they designated the call that coral and everything is the national. So my job there was a patrol boat out to the island snorkel tube, go around, swim to all the interpretive. How much fun is not? Did you ever get scared of sharks or anything like that? Name Henry or something. There was an underwater. Everything's 25% bigger. That's a yeah. No, he was super. I mean, he was like the. I was the area. In child manager in charge. Yeah. And so his he had range. I had Buck Island reef. I had the Danish historic thing. Oh, that's right. And Salt River. Wow. So we're three little segments all together part of the what a cool job. You go snorkeling. So everything's changing, right? See, I mean, every so how not many years we were there. We were there. Yeah, about two and a half years there. You know, it was one of those things. Okay, I'm not having the Buck snow with Tony. Yeah, but the water did break at home. And so we called the doctor and I was going and the hospital medical thing was so odd. You never knew how to pronounce names. It was sort of a foot in the door for doctors who because it was a territory. All right. So there was a place that foreign doctors would come to get a foot in the door to get to the United States. Oh, wow. And so but this doctor was a native from, you know, from the islands or no, he was Puerto Rican. Puerto Rican. No, he was Puerto Rican. And you could not make an appointment. You just went to his house. And sometimes there were 20 cars around there. Sometimes there weren't anyone, you know, maybe one or two. And I was usually the only way we were called continentals. We were white, you know, and the continents. And they withdrew from the continentals. Yeah, I wouldn't be the only white person in that group, you know, many times. And I had a good time talking with the ladies. And so Tony decided to come at night. And he had a clinic. There was a hospital in St. Croix and a clinic in Frederick, Stan. I said, oh, I think I'd rather come to the clinic. And fortunately, Tony was born okay. But the phones went out. My folks were at least you didn't have a hurricane. But there were lizards going up the walls. And then we had one, yeah, like you say, in the house, you know, it was all open. There were decals behind the. Yeah, they're cool. And friends. And there was one I don't have ever seen the light because he was totally white. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there were, you know, there's there's good and bad things and why everywhere you live. Yeah, of course, are. And that's what makes the story. You know, so the Virgin Islands, where did you go next? Washington DC. Oh my gosh. I think there's somebody in the higher government that's gone. Hey, let's put them here and see what happens. Oh, I was sent to Washington under a departmental training assignment two years. And then they move you back out to the National Park area somewhere. So that was during stop war in Vietnam. Oh, yeah. Tranny Davis was really, really Davis. I guess, you know, they were trying to knock in cars over and tried to stop, you know, slashing bust tires and things. Yeah, it was an unsettled time. Yeah. Lady Bird Johnson was doing the beautification of Washington DC. The Kennedy's, she had brought in Andrew Wyatt's show to the White House. I was able to get to see that show. Oh, wow. And that's when I clicked into, you know what, I really want to paint. Yeah, I saw that show and it blew me away. And so, so that's when you started painting then? Not until we got to Yosemite. I was in a city. So actually, I did sign up. I met, there was an American watercolor society artist in San Saint Croix that was giving classes from one to four o'clock or five o'clock in the, and I wanted to take that class. Fortunately, our ranger had a mother that was visiting and she saw babies, you know, oh, cool. You know, Tina and Tony were babies, you know, at that time. And she says, Oh, I'll be more than happy because it was a time they were both going down for naps at the same time. So I, that was my, is that a good thing? It was, well, it was fabulous. Yeah, it's the only time you're alive. But yeah, but anyway, but has was American watercolor society artist and a fabulous introduction to watercolor. So indeed, I did want to sign up for another watercolor class when I got to Washington DC, but not enough people signed up. So I took guitar lessons. Just go back a moment. The, the question is, where were you when Kennedy was shot? Oh, yeah. Okay, I'm at the heel of cliff going. So all by myself at the ranger station. And I hear a horse coming up. A rider. Right. Knock on the door. Jim, the president's been shot. Well, that's right. And then he just turned around and got on the horse and wrote off. And I said to myself, nobody's coming to the cliff dwellings today with the event that's going on in Washington right now. So I just locked the place up and gotten the truck and went back to the house and said, and we had a battery operated radio. So we turned on the radio and we could hear what was going on. And you know, everybody knows I was with Ida Campbell. How we did our wash, she had two ringer washers in a wash house, and they had an old army surplus generator. They burned a gallon of gas and our quartum oil an hour. So when that was, when that was popped off, you did everything. If I were washing clothes, she would do something in, you know, back and we'd do something in her house at the same time. Or both of us would, she would iron and I would wash or that both of us would iron and we'd stand outside and iron together in the summer and just put the clothes up in the, you know, yeah. And that's the time when we're ironing ranger shirts and putting in their cotton and putting in the military creases. I was, it was starch. Did you have to use starch? Yeah. Well, I, we, we used fence, pant stretches for the jeans and everything. But you did your whole wash in one day and hung up everything, you know, to start. And of course we had all the hot water we wanted, but we needed to have the, you know, the cold so you could, it wouldn't run. So that led, finally, we got a ranger and the funniest was they were going to get me gas refrigerated because I was having to walk from our trailer across to, well, it would be like way past this house here to Ida's to the ranch house. To the ranch house. They had four servels out in the, you know, for their family, big family and everything that went on there and I had a space for refrigeration. Well, that was walking back and forth. And finally, the powers that be from Santa Fe came again, we're going to buy you a refrigerator. I said, fabulous. He said, well, she said, start checking out the gas refrigerators. Well, servel had sold out to Nordge and sold out to Whirlpool, you know, so that's kind of thing was going on way back then. Somebody found gas refrigerator. We had two trailers and we said, okay, we need two. One had turquoise fixtures, ours had white. Okay. And that time you couldn't change the hinge on a refrigerator door. So it has to be open this way. And finally, Jim gets a call and says, we've got your refrigerator. And Jim said, we're supposed to have two. He says, you only have one here. And he says, what color is it? He says this white. Well, it was hinged on the wrong side. Plus it was so huge. It wouldn't go through the trailer door. Great. So what do we do? We had a small porch built as we walked out the trailer. And all the construction had those huge signs. We had made a floor out of one, built the signs, put the big sign as a top, stuck the refrigerator in there. And oh, the problem was, Jim said, check out the refrigerator. It had an electric thermostat. If you didn't have electricity, it froze solid inside. So he said, we'll bring it out anyway. So we did. And they re they reworked it. So we manually could turn on the gas and turn it off. So I would turn the gas on in the morning, run all day at night when we go to bed, we turn it off. So it didn't freeze. And we're great. I mean, if you wanted to defrost it, you'd just open up and the sun would go in and pull up. This is, I love this. But then when we went to El Paso or something, everything froze solid. Mayonnaise. Mayonnaise, tomatoes, and rocks. Oh my gosh. This is so important that people understand what rangers go through. Because it looks like, you know, do you have your little neat offices? Yeah. You've got a nice new uniform. It doesn't look like that. Coleman Lander between my legs. Wow. To desk. Coleman Lander. Yeah, some of the time can do your papers. Yeah. Oh man. So finally, our neighbor, she had a baby who I did and they ordered up a washing machine. Well, at that time, Doc had finally gotten a de-generator, a big diesel generator for the property. And so we did have lights and that's why they could have a washing machine. But there wasn't enough pressure to click the solenoid switch to make it go through its cycle. So we would, we had this radio and we had a gentleman visit one time and he was in a radio operator and he said, "Make a big coil of copper wire and just stick it behind your radio that will bring in stations better." Which we did. Well, when that washer would change, you could hear the click of the radio on the radio. Okay. So you would go fill the water with all your water and then you would come in and hear the click. Okay. It's through. You go and take the water out, let it go through to washing it. Oh, it's Mack. And when you hear the click, click, click, stop the mic. This is hysterical. We thought, but that wasn't it. But I didn't have to walk clear over the ice again. Oh, my God. But it is fun in a way. I mean now. But it wasn't even funny at the time. The people that were going to replace us, I told you the couch and said, "Well, how do you do your wash?" I said, "Oh, I take the sheets down to the river and I'll move the rock." Then in the park service says, "I'm not going to take my sheets." Well, man, it's so easier. So when you, I want to go back on the, so you had the Virgin. Okay. The cliff dwellings to the Virgin Islands to DC. So what happened after DC? Yosemite. Yes, Yosemite. See, this is like just crazy. But see, we have been to Yosemite right when we got married because Jim went through Ranger training at Yosemite. It was a three-month schooling time. It was fabulous. I worked for Dr. Westner, who was a dentist as an assistant. My sister is a dental hygienist. She and her husband had gone through Ranger training at Yosemite. And so she worked for Dr. Westner. So suddenly, I walk into his office. He says, "Are you back?" I said, "I'm not a dental hygienist." He says, "I'll tell you everything." That was a good time. That's so nice. We just had fabulous. And we stayed in a little park right behind them. So what was your main job there? I was a, well, I was a unit manager for a while of World Warner. Oh, okay. And then they did a reorganization. And it said, "Jim, you've got to come into the valley." Okay. So they moved me to the valley and they said, "You're going to take care of concessions. You're going to take care of public information. You're going to take mayor of Elpertel." Wow. And whatever else that no one knows what to do with, you're going to do it. You're going to be the central. So anyway, I was sort of indoors around the corner from the superintendent's office. And when things went haywire, Jim, you got to do this. You got to do that. Somebody comes in from a concession experience at a hotel or a lounge. And you want to complain to the superintendent of the park. They complain to you. I intercepted them. As soon as I heard them coming in, I said, "And I had an understanding with the concession guy who put out the fires. And I would, we just talk ourselves to death, make it all come the right way." And Curry Company would say, "We'll complement this and comp that." And so we kind of left some happy campers. That's good. Well, and at any time there was a horse barn burned down and we lost something like that. Like two dozen horses. I got a call, Jim, had this major fire in the park. You better come to the office. And maybe spokesman for it. Yep. And I took care of all the stuff, or they'd have some foreigner coming in and, Jim, we need this, we need that. And so I take them here, take them there. Wow. Did they have a skating rink at that point? The ice skating rink in Firefall was still going for two days, like Saturday and Wednesdays. Wow. The weekend, no, the weekend and Wednesdays. It was when we were departmental, I mean, when we were ranger training. Oh, that's right, ranger training. That's right. And then when we came back permanently, the fire thing was gone. The firefall was gone, yeah. No more. But then the hotel that was up at Glacier Point had burned. Oh, okay. That's where all that activity had happened. Oh, wow. And it got so congested in the valley. It does. Yeah. People wanting to see that firefall. It was amazing that they just we can't deal with it anymore. Plus there were people that were complaining, because we were burning the red fir, I think, bark. So kind of a bark off with some of the trees. Of course, these were trees that fell over and died. And you had to work pretty hard to get the bark off of them. But you know, there was an environmental interest. So, yeah, that was the end of it. Glacier Point, I remember Nancy and I going up there was in January and it was all snowed up. Oh, yeah. And it was like, oh, man, we'd slide your way down your door. Those beautiful hotels up there. And I remember seeing something about that. There was a hotel here. It was a lovely hotel. And when we were there for ranger training, we went out in camp one time. And it was just, you know, you could sit up there off their porch and look at half don't. It was Yosemite is special. I mean, we saw a coyote chase a deer down the road in the valley. Where I filmed it, it was cool. It was like, and then I was like, oh my gosh, then they look at you and I'm like, don't look at me, man. I know both of them, because I know deer can do damage. It's like we had a mountain lion drop down in front of us. We were riding like cliff dwellings one evening. Oh, cool. And it started loping in front of the car. It just stayed. Oh, well, he's up to 25. Stayed for a longest time. That was, that was really kind of a. That's awesome. So Yosemite, then what was next? Lavaben Nation. Wow. So now you're going back up north. We are on Oregon, California. So you're going right back to Crater Lake, almost. Well, yeah, we were in that chain. We were in the shopping town for Crater Lake. Climate falls were in the shopping town from Lavaben. Okay. Now it's a big wine region, which is awesome, that whole area. Well, at that time, of course, it's one of the largest potato growing areas. Our daughter was a potato vegetable queen. This is like the most interesting park interview we've ever done. Spud queen. Spud queen from all I know how to do. She went from the cliff dwellings to being a Spud queen. Oh, for it. From Lavaben's National Monument, which was a wonderful area. But it was, it was actually, it was actually, you know, the Murak War history. Oh, yeah. Three hundred and seventy-nine feet just to go through. Wow. The birds, the animals, we saw more wildlife at Lavaben's than we did at Yosemite. Really? Oh, yeah. Oh, it's not because you don't have as many people, maybe. Well, just, yeah, exactly. We had deer, we had. Fessent and animal. I want to go. Well, the real threat was running into a deer. I mean, I think almost every park employee ran, I mean. Oh, no. You know, their deer were just crazy. Yeah, you'd be driving. Deer would come up alongside of the car. You know, I don't get any closer, because if you do, you're going to get deer. It's going to hurt. Yeah. One evening, the kids had offered to make cakes for a cake walk at school. And that was 30 miles away, and they had to get to. And when the ice was bad, it was really bad. But anyway, so we made these cakes. And Tina had made a smiley face and a frowny face. And Tony had those in the back. And he was in something for having me. And Tina was in the front with a big opportunity. So we'd just take off. I said, Jim, are you going, no, no, just take off. So I just get over the hill, and this doe comes out. And she just flexing off the side. And I stopped the car. And we all kind of go like this. Tina kind of hits the cake into the dash a little bit. And I turned by. I said, Tony, you OK? He says, yeah, I said, where are the cakes? He says, oh, they're right here. And he takes one and puts there. And he takes the other one off and puts it there. None on his lap. Oh, my god. They've got-- they've got right to the back. Oh, man. That's pretty. I had-- this is terrible. When we lived up in 29 proms, we'd go through Joshua Tree all the time. And it was Easter. And we had taken a friend to dinner. This was terrible. And I've helped people on the side of the road. One car had gone totally off the road. And it was during another day and helping them out. And there's no cell phone service. And it was like no range was even on duty, I think, at that time. But anyway, this night, we were coming back from dinner. And the way bunnies are, man. They just-- they drive-- they jump in the view. And then they go back. And they come back. They do this three-fold. Oh, yeah. Just when you think you're safe to go on. And I wasn't speeding or anything. Driving, and here come the rabbits. And they're all from all sides. And then all of a sudden, kabunk. And our friend, the Commodore, just turns. He says, it's Easter. He killed a bunny on Easter. I was like, I felt so bad. And I was like, I killed a bunny. I'm going to pull over and help you. He's like, no, you really didn't. That was a rock. He didn't go over. Yeah, I did. I killed a bunny on Easter. I didn't believe in Santa Claus in there. I didn't believe in a lot of things. But we had gone back to Death Valley. I was a little girl. And the folks said, oh, to our old house. And there was a big jackrabbit in the-- and mom said, oh, the Easter Bunny came. And I thought for sure that jackrabbit was indeed the Easter. Oh, I killed your jackrabbit. [LAUGHTER] You were the one who's the murderer. You did it. I murdered it. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. I don't know if it's unlikely. I kind of lost interest. I love jackrabbits, man. They're super cool seeing how their veins are in the ears. Yeah. Oh, man. So lava legs. Yeah, well, and the interesting thing is that we had a seasonal employee a summer that she came every summer. And Chihuah James was a modoc Indian. Her father-- I mean, the modocs were taken from after the war happened. They were taken back to Oklahoma, Miami, Oklahoma, of all places. And her father was one of the oldest living modocs at the time. And Chihuah had met her husband at Crater Lake. And so it was kind of an interesting-- suddenly she was a beautiful woman. She had been Mrs. Missouri or something like that. And so she brought her father and the young people. They had-- we really probably had the best time with the seasonals that were there every summer. Because they did the interpretive talks in the campground. And Chihuah brought her father. And they all went through all the modoc history while they were down in the camp to jack stronghold. And then another good friend of ours just started really building up the slide format for them to use for their talks. And they were just the best-- I mean, a lot of them were permanently into the park service because of that experience. Yeah. So yeah, it was really-- Have you ever been to a lot of events? Not yet. Not yet. But we're going to go there. We're going to go there. Well, that's neat. I mean, that's what I like about pinnacles, too. It was a different experience. The first cave we went into was a Carnaro National Memorial down in Southeast Arizona. And it was a dead cave. And it was really sad because it was really human beings who made it a dead cave. Yeah. Yeah, there's one that goes for a long, long time. And it used to be the introduction to take the seasonals through this cave that was-- there was a lot of rolling and crawling. And it was like hours to get through it. If you've ever been in a cave and they turn out a light and it's so black and say, I'm at the total mercy of my guide. I mean, there's a whole idea of where I am. So the kids, I mean, it was cold outside. You go in the caves because it was 56. I don't know whether it was hot outside. You go in the caves and it was the same temperature. But we used to take them all the way through this one cave as their introduction into caving. And it was just an interesting part. At a small world, Gail and I went from Crater Lake on a tour trip to lava beds to see what's going on. He took me there on a date. Wow. And then you end up-- 20-- those birds are just-- 20. Wow. Gail. I'm sorry. 20 years later, we returned to lava beds superintendent. That's amazing. That was a summer ranger to a superintendent. And one, it's a full circle moment. Yeah. It took me on a date to lava beds from Crater Lake. Really, really kind of closer. But then did you go from lava beds to here to pinnacles? And then you were the superintendent in pinnacles. That's beautiful. So you knew about caves. That's-- Yeah. --you know about caves and birds? These were funny caves at pinnacles. And there's a nice thing. They were big boulders at lava beds. At Lisa Smith. Yeah. Yeah. She darkened there. It was our maintenance gal. You know my last name is Smith, right? I know. I remember that. At least that's how you used to Smith. She was in charge of maintenance in all the horses. And she takes them up to work the trail. So she let me come along with her. We packed them. She had to deal packing again. So it was-- Pinnacles was a special park. It just-- And a lot of the climbers from Yosemite come and use it in the winter. And I said, if there were ever water going down through that from the visitor center, you couldn't keep people away from that. Well, I know that they really got packed over this year with this centennial, now being the 59th park. I mean, the park system, depending on the parks that we look at, you know, like he looked cliff dwellings, won't be overrun like Yosemite gets overrun. Pinnacles. So there's a balance. Us as visitors and travelers, we need to look at going more midweek and off season. And you know, Yosemite in winter is a magical experience. You know, it's awesome. It's over anywhere in the fall. I mean, I don't know, that Indian summer time is just-- It's perfect. It is. So I think people have to look at that. In closing, you've got the Anza Trail here, too, that you've created. That's part of the Juan Batisa de Anza National Star Trail. And now you go downtown in the mission. We're going to be doing that today. But you've created a trail where people actually walk this trail. That's right. Well, what the trail is. It's really the old-- It's an old road. It's an old stage coach road. It was the old stage coach road. But it was getting into a-- there was getting a kind of a problem with gangbangers and everybody else going up there were-- Party time. Private time, you know. And the wrenches were-- Concerned, yeah. Yeah, they were worried about what was going on, technically on their property. Well, a city-- I'm sorry. County. A county. Superbards, you know. Yeah. Place. Right. Richard Place. Richard Place was a county supervisor. He came up with the idea. Why don't we recognize the Anza expedition on this old piece of road that we kind of think he came through here. And maybe that will settle the problem that the ranchers were having with the hippies and all that stuff. They were using a dreo for drugs and beer and all that stuff. Yeah, because that's how you get wildfires and stuff, too. So they got it signed off as part of the National Historic Trail, signed by Clinton. And they were able to convince the ranchers that you could put your wire up. And we'll put the two gates up. And there won't be any more of this nonsense, and shooting, and drinking, and all that sort of stuff upon what is the dreo trail. And plus, we've recognized the trail and the expedition that they did to get to San Francisco. So I think it's worked out. Because you got a lot of hikers up there. And that's a call. And as Gail mentioned, Alan was able to pinpoint at least one spot to say, hey, we've got documentation that they went from here to-- They crossed over that trail. In so many places, the trail is under concrete or buildings. And for the park, they said it's one of the very few areas that you could really realize somebody coming over the hill, the family's coming down off the hill into a little village. Although San Juan wasn't here at the time. It was just a-- or the mission. But it was that saying, it is all by itself and is pretty much a wilderness as it could have been. Yeah, so you couldn't get an idea of what it is. It has become a very positive trail for people walking their dogs in the morning. And for visitors coming in, Jim just has some volunteers that sort of are the eyes. There are five of us that volunteer to pick up the trash. And one of them, something happens, they'll give them a call. So you're still the middleman. Hey, there's a cow. There's a cow patty on the left-hand side. I got a telephone call a couple of the days ago. Big, big cows with huge horns had gotten on the road to the trail. I'm staring people down. Yeah, doing something. It's part of you walking. It's just a cow patty with a red cow like this. Go just go down to the ranch house at the Northgate and talk to the lady that you've got some stray cattle. She's a mother, a stray mire partner. And they've got two boys there that love to ride their horses. Yeah, and move the cattle. Yeah, they were always there when we walked in. When we first opened that trail, we'd go up and we'd be the only ones up there because all they knew about it. And the cows would always be there. But yeah, the answer trail says 1,500-mile expedition. Yeah, right. It was incredible. When you think of trail, you and I think of a trail about that wide and you can hike and everything. The answer trail was spread out all over you. Have you ever been in your house? Your house, I mean, your house? No, not yet. Because they have a diorama. And that's going to hit us. Because it shows just this wide width of how the people moved to Toronto. And because you think of this going down to the town. I think they had a couple of hundreds of cows, a couple of hundreds of horses. Yeah. They were spread out out of it. In fact, they said they had a very nice video of the history of Anza. But you listen, you're going to watch and what do you think about it? And I said, well, the only thing I can say is those horses are on pavement. And they're in their visual, they're on dirt. You wouldn't sound like they're on pavement. Yeah. That was my only critique. But that diorama really pulled us into it. Oh, yeah. Wow. I mean, they were moving like little characters and horses and cattle. No, just me. But it's spread out like it's going at their own pace. But it's interesting being from southern Arizona and going to Tumacakari and going to like Nagalas where they crossed over from Mexico. And then you see now they're developing trails out there. And I know people have written it, they've actually done the horse ride from Mexico all the way to San Francisco, which is that's so cool. But yeah, back then you do spread out and you do go at the pace you need. And he loses behind him now. The what? Where did Anza lose his life? In Spain, I think. No, he wasn't in this country. Who? Anza. Yeah. Where did he die? Oh, he died and buried in Arizona's state line. Yeah. And there's a little town below that in Old Mexico. Okay. And it's really buried. I'm going to go find him. Go find him. I'm going to go find him. Dude, I think about this trail life. I think the expedition is fascinating, especially it being part of when America was being founded here in 1776. So well, thank you both for chatting. No, thank you. Well, the only thing you did miss out. Thanks for joining us here on Big Blend Radio's Parks and Travel podcast. Visit nationalparktraveling.com to plan your next park adventure and to see our Parks and Travel digital magazine. You can keep up with our shows at bigblendradio.com.