With today being the birth anniversary of gangster George Kelly Barnes (July 18, 1900 – July 17, 1954), aka "Machine Gun Kelly," we're revisiting this "From the Vault" Big Blend Radio interview with award-winning author Barbara Casey who discusses her book "Kathryn Kelly: The Moll Behind "Machine Gun" Kelly."
This biography showcases how with a lust for danger, Kathryn Kelly masterminded the crimes that took her and her husband, and others who included her own mother and stepfather, on a spree across Minnesota, Tennessee, Oklahoma, and Texas. Starting with smaller crimes that included bootlegging, smuggling liquor onto an Oklahoma Indian reservation, and other petty crimes, she encouraged her husband, George Kelly, toward a life of more serious criminal activity that eventually escalated into bank robberies, kidnapping and extortion. Many believe that it was Kathryn, after giving him a machine gun, who developed George's feared persona and the name of "Machine Gun Kelly."
Although much has been written about Machine Gun Kelly, there is very little known about Kathryn. Through narrative, FBI files, rare quotes from George Kelly's son and other relatives and associates, extensive research, and several photographs, "Kathryn Kelly - The Moll behind Machine Gun Kelly" is the first book ever written about a woman who chose to follow a life of crime during the Prohibition era.
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Kathryn Kelly: The Moll Behind Machine Gun Kelly
(upbeat music) - You're listening to Penguin Radio's way back when History Show and Barbara Casey is joining us next. Barbara is an award-winning author and editorial consultant and partner of Strategic Media Publishing and she's joining us today to talk about notorious Catherine Kelly, the subject of her latest book. Catherine Kelly, the mole behind Machine Gun Kelly, can get it on Amazon, but as they go to their website, strategicmediabooks.com and keep up with Barbara at barberkcagency.com. Barbara, it's good to have you back on the show. How are you? - Oh, thank you, Lisa. It's great to be here too. Thank you for asking me. - You know, it's been a while. I mean, it's been, I was gonna say what two years since two years? - Two years. - And that was when I had, you had me on to talk about the gospel according to Prissy. That was my latest novel that had just come out. And of course, Catherine Kelly is non-fiction. It's my first true crime book that I've written. - And isn't this also, yeah, it's one of the first ones written about a woman who, you know, followed crime in the-- - It is. - Yeah. - It is the first book that's ever been written about Catherine, there's tons of stuff about machine gun Kelly, her husband. But nothing had ever been written about Catherine. And she is quite an item. - Wow, she is. I read the book and I was just like, no way. No, 'cause she seems like this. - Yes, yes way. - That's the manipulator. I mean, she really is. I mean, and when you think about women in crime, it is about manipulation, really, at the end of the day. And when you realize how young she was, I mean, she dropped out of school and she was 14 years old and she changed her name from Cleo to Catherine because she wanted something that was more glamorous-sounding. She got married before she turned 16. So she was just between 14 and 15 years old for the first time. Then she married three times before she met George. So, but she just, she was quite a character. Young, just driven by wanting to live the great life, wanting to live a stylish life. And that's what motivated her. - There's that, but in the meantime, I mean, and her marriage to George was really funny too. They stole this boss's dog and car. (laughing) It's like, you don't do that. - Well, it's true. We're not quite sure. Historians aren't quite sure how Catherine met George. Some people think that she met him while he was serving time at Leavenworth. And she was there visiting her two uncles because so much of her family was involved in criminal activity. And so she was there visiting her two uncles when she might have met George. And when he was released from Leavenworth and they got together. But the other story is that a guy named Little Steve, who was a bootlegger, and I know you love bootlegging stories, had gotten George to be a partner with him in his bootlegging business. And Little Steve's girlfriend was Catherine at the time. And so apparently Catherine and George fell in love and they wound up stealing Little Steve's big car and his prized bulldog and took off and got married. (laughing) I don't know when I'm thinking of bulldog. - That was really funny. - Interesting to me in your book, number one, there's always, here's the 10 stories, the different ones, because there's a lot of rumors and then even the newspapers had different stories. And I thought that was fascinating. Somebody actually just published, here's the different stories, the different takes. Because I think that's the hardest thing about going back in these crime stories, but to me, it's terribly difficult because there's just nothing except newspapers from that period and then finding things that were mentioned about her from other perspectives, other criminals or other works that were written by other criminals. But also the FBI, all the trial documents and the arrest records, everything, the FBI had everything. Of course, Jay Edgar Hoover was the director of the FBI at the time. And so there was just volume, they kept everything. And it was in the FBI vault where I found a great deal of information that no one had ever seen before. It was just collecting dust in the FBI vault. - Wow. - So there was a lot of power. - Did you do not find the FBI's door and say, "I wanna see the vault." Let me in. - Yeah, let me get in there. - Yeah, I wanna go in there. (laughs) - Well, they have a lot of it. It's released electronically now. And if it's sealed, then you can always request special permission. But a lot of it is released to the public now. It's just a matter of signing up and getting access. - Yeah, you know, Jay Edgar Hoover just disliked Catherine so much that that's where the bulk of the material was because he kept everything, all the records. He was so determined to catch her and make an example of her. - You know, today with the Freedom of Information Act, I think we have access to a lot more. And now I'm looking at social media and all the stupid things like the people who put on social media just robbed a bank or a car. And then they get caught. - Right, I know, I know. - It's so funny. How stupid can you get? But it is-- - Or take a selfie. (laughs) - Yeah. - You're getting the money. - Yeah. (laughs) - But it is interesting. Now I'm thinking when you go to research a book, how much more you have to go through. - For one thing, you want it to be as accurate as possible and you have to get to the facts. And one advantage was, there were several firsts when the trial took place from that main kidnapping that they did on George Charles Herschel. And one of the things was it was the first time that they had allowed cameras with sound in the courtroom during the trial of death. So there was a record of that. And actually her, I actually got to listen to that the proceeding of the trial. And that gave you a flavor of the environment and what the people were thinking and what they were doing. A lot of the spectators were, they brought their lunches because it was such a big event. They just didn't want anyone to get their feet so they brought their luncheon eight during the trial. And it was in fact one of the journalists called it a Roman holiday atmosphere because it was just like a three ring circus. - But that's what I thought was so interesting about your book. It definitely tells the story of Captain Kelly and then her manipulation. But it also really told the story of the time because you were talking about, okay, here's prohibition and the dust bowl happening. And between the two, that created this climate of, oh, let's get out there. And then you also brought in the other gangs that had women like Ma Barker, Bonnie and Clyde. I mean, how there was this network going on and it was really the center of the country. We've got Missouri, you've got Oklahoma, Texas, of course, Paradise, Texas. I think that's funny that Paradise, Texas was one of the places. And Tennessee, all these areas all connected and everyone's running around and she didn't want it. And Catherine Kelly did not want to be on a farm trying to make it work. And she had this glitz and gravitor. I mean, with the reporters being able to come in during her trials, for their trials, that was the first two. And even the FBI, because the FBI was only forming at that point too. - That's right, that's right. She really knew how to manipulate people. She was attractive for one thing. And she was just used to getting whatever she wanted. And she had an arrest record, a criminal record, before she even met George. And shoplifting, and prosthetician, and bootlegging. Just a lot of things, but she always managed to get off. And she just knew how to use people to get her way. And then she was also accused of shooting her third husband and killing him, a curly thorn. - Right. - And then later it came, they reversed that decision and let her off, because they said they found the suicide note that he had typed on a typewriter. - Yeah, yeah, come on now. - He was gonna end it all, and hence he couldn't go on. Well, what they didn't realize was he was illiterate. He didn't read or write, let alone know how to type. And he certainly never used the word hence in his life. But yet he got away with it. - Isn't it, in the era of like, the women is, oh, the weaker of the two sexes, and could have been really positive. - It was because most of the malls were just the port figures for their gangster husband or boyfriend. - Yeah. - And Catherine, really, she was different. She really called the shop. She made the plans. - And then you say the plans, the kidnapping was really fascinating when they kidnapped Charles Urschel, because I know in the book you talk about how bank robbing was, you know, went from bootlegging to being bank robbers, and that you had a bigger risk, right? But then kidnapping became the thing of an easier thing. But when they went after Charles Urschel, tell everybody about him, because he really, he was one of the richest men in the country at the time. - He was, he was an oil man in Oklahoma. And again, it was Catherine's idea. She read about his marriage in the society paper. He had married a wealthy widow whose late husband was also in the oil business. And she decided that that would, he would make a good target of kidnapping victims. And so they made their plans. They had already tried two or three other times and had failed. They drove one poor man around the state of Indiana for two days, trying to convince him he needed to pay a ransom. And the man kept telling them he didn't have that ransom. So they finally just let him out. But so they, it was almost a comedy, but yet it wasn't, it was serious. So when they got to Charles Urschel, here was this wealthy oil man. And they had, again, it was like a comedy of errors, because George and his partner, a man named Bailey, went in and they didn't know what Charles Urschel looked like. And at the time, Charles Urschel and his wife were entertaining another couple over a plane bridge. So they wound up kidnapping both men, trying to figure out which one was Charles Urschel, finally just figured it out. Let Jarrett, the other man, go. And then took Charles Urschel to Paradise, Texas, which is where Catherine's mother and stepfather lived on a ranch there. But getting there, George forgot to fill up the car with gas, so they ran out of gas. This is in the middle of the night. It had rained, and so they got stuck in a mud hole and he had to get out and push the car. I mean-- - That goes on the list of the criminal activities. - It does. - It's like, when I was reading about that, I was like, this is really funny, you know? But you gotta feel bad for Charles Urschel, but he was really, really smart. I mean, a smart, smart man, but she's behind this whole thing and she's not really even lifting a finger other much, but delegating a lot of this, you know, really, when you come down to it. - That's right. What they didn't realize was that Charles Urschel had a photogenic memory. And even though he was blindfolded and restrained on the floorboard of the back seat of the car, he heard everything. He memorized what he heard. For instance, he could hear the oil wells pumping and he knew the distance between the oil pumps. So that came into play later on as he identified which route they took. And then when they got to the ranch, they had originally planned on leaving him with Catherine's grandmother. And the grandmother didn't know anything about it. And they woke her up and she just started screaming because she wasn't about to have any part of it. And she made the truck that they had to take him on to the other ranch to her mother's, Catherine's mother's and stepfather's ranch. And they put him up there in a little shack of a house where this-- Yeah. --that son lived. His name was Potato. I didn't-- it's funny because her mom, her mom too, she was in the bootlegging business too. Yes, she and the stepfather boss, they were bootleggers. And they had a farm. They raised their own food and livestock and everything. And again, all of this came into play because Charles Urschel, he figured out how many cows there were. And he could hear the hogs and the chickens. And I mean, he knew exactly. And he managed to see a little bit, like he knew there was a doorknob missing from one of the doors. And so it was really easy to identify where he had been held when the time came. Wow. That's amazing. He should be in the FBI. And I thought the whole thing, you know, and Vancouver and every-- I was like, wow, this is really fascinating stuff. How he really was on her tail. Like, he really did want to make an example of her. But what's interesting about it is like George Kelly was supposed to be this, you know, badass for lack of better work. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. He wasn't-- he was bad, but he wasn't as bad as she really built up his persona. He's a celebrity gun cleaner. Yeah. He was the original marketer and branding. He branded him because he really-- he did not like guns. And she's the one that bought the machine gun and gave it to him, his first machine gun. And she insisted that he go to paradise to that farm and practice shooting it. And she's the one-- and then she would collect all the spent shells. And when they go back to town, she'd pass them out at the speakeas. He used in the bars and all the places that they were frequent. And he can talk about how mean and bad he was. And that he-- you know, he was terrific with a machine gun. And he could write his name on the side of a barn, just spraying it with machine guns, things like that. And that's how his reputation grew. That's called lack of control, actually. Well, you know, it's like go-bought to sell up. Go-bought. We'd find we're supposed to be sprayed with bullets from him. And, you know? Right, right. But most criminals want to be, you know, like under the radar, don't want to be known. But there is a side of these big criminals that likes a limelight. Mm-hmm. They do. And they're proud of what they've accomplished. I don't know if that's right. George-- one of George's sons wrote a book about him. And he said that George always felt like he was a little bit better than the other bank robbers. He felt like he was a knock above because he had a little bit of an education. And he was a little bit more sophisticated. And he just enjoyed not so much the robbing itself, but the fear and the awe that he created and the people that he was robbing. So there was that element. Yeah, on her side, she wants this spotlight. But it was almost like when I started reading about the trial and everything. And then at the end, I was like, OK, then you got me a mixed minds here because she's a criminal through and through. She's a manipulator through and through. She wants the lavish furs and the music and the travel and the this and that, you know? She wants the jewels and all that. But at the same time, so it was like, she hadn't framed from day one almost the way I was reading it, right? It's like she hadn't framed. But then she gets out of prison with her mom. And her mom go to prison. Oh, we're together, who gets to be together as a mother or daughter team in prison? I mean, it's quite crazy, actually. Well, that is best the unusual part about her. If there is one redeeming feature about Catherine, a self-centered as she was and a selfish and motivated for all the wrong reasons, I think she really did love her mother. And when all the time that Catherine and George were fleeing the FBI after that kidnapping, she was trying to negotiate a deal with the FBI or with Hoover to see that her mother was not committed to prison. She really did try to protect her mother. But of course, that failed. And then she and her mother both were sentenced for life. And that was a really harsh sentence for women back in those days. But they got out. They hadn't killed anyone. But yet they were sentenced to life. And of course, George was sentenced to life. And he did actually die in prison. He was-- And on her 59th birthday. With simple. It was a heart attack. And all that bravado and all of that big reputation that Catherine had worked so hard to build up in prison, he was known as Pop Gun Kelly. Rather than machine gun Kelly, Pop Gun Kelly. Because he was just a mild personality. He really wasn't someone to be feared or nothing like what his reputation was. How interesting, you know, so the influence of Catherine was, you know, forever a bad thing. But at the end of the day, she wanted to protect her mother. But she's going to let her husband take the rap. But she actually really tried to work out any deal that she could in order to protect herself now. I have to admit that she was trying to get herself a lighter sentence as well. But her mother, she always included her mother. And they were very hard on Catherine. And all throughout her prison, they moved her around several times. And she was on bread and water for a while. And just, she really did suffer in prison. And through the whole time, she kept negotiating, kept wanting to talk to different FBI agencies, where she could perhaps be an informer, work out a deal that way. And because she knew so much about what was going on with the other gangsters and what their plans were and all. Because as you said, back in those days, they were all like a click. They all knew one another or at least knew of their reputations. And they followed each other's careers even though it was illegal. But she never did work out a deal. And she and her mother wound up serving 25 years of the life sentence. It's interesting that when you look at our legal system, that there is actually an opening for making deals. You would think that there wouldn't be any deals made. But my understanding of it is if there weren't any deals, there would not be any way to catch other people involved in crime. That's right. Yeah, because they make deals, but it's weird. Yeah, it's kind of a-- A two-edged sword. Because they have the person that you're trying to incarcerate, but yet they're offering more information which you also want, so it's whichever you want the most. Yeah, it's a strange situation. But in Catherine's case, J. Edgar Hoover was so adamantly opposed to releasing her earlier or anything like that. He just wouldn't budge no matter what she offered. He just would not budge. And then the other person that had a great deal of influence on that also was a friend of Charles Erchel's. His name was Kirkpatrick. And he's the one who actually delivered the ransom money. And it was a frightening experience for him. I mean, it would be for any person not involved in criminal activity on a daily basis. And he was just so angry about the whole thing that he kept in touch with J. Edgar Hoover, reminding him, don't let that woman out, no matter what, don't let her out. She's dangerous. She's a Tigris. He just was adamantly about it. And J. Edgar Hoover agreed. So she-- in the end, it was because he finally got a new attorney. And he was able to prove that many of the witnesses had talked against Katherine during the trial, but they had been intimidated by the prosecution. And when the FBI didn't dispute that, then that was one of the reasons that he was able to get her and her mother released early, 25 years. Well, it's amazing to me, this whole story. How did you find out about Katherine Kelly? And why did you decide to write about her? Yeah. Well, I was doing research for another book that I'm writing. And I just came across her and just took a break and just tried to find out some information about her. And it found very little, but enough that it intrigued me. And then I just sort of put it on the shelf thinking, well, I'd like to write about her one day. And that's how it started. And then the more I dug, the more I realized, well, this is untapped territory. And it's an interesting story. She was a fascinating character. One of my favorite things about her, she had a daughter with her first husband. She was only 15, but she was just wild herself. And she had one daughter. And when her mother, when Katherine got sent to prison, her daughter, Pauline, was about 12 or 13 at the time. And she wanted to continue with her education. She went to live with an aunt and uncle out in the West. And she didn't have any money to pay for her education. And she kept contacting the judge who had overheard the trial, asking him to release the first and the jewels that they had confiscated that belonged to Katherine. And she got nowhere, because she wanted to cash them in and get money enough to go to college. Oh, wow. Yeah, it was a sad situation. One point, finally, the judge wrote her and said that he was going to see that her education was paid for. And that her living expenses would be taken care of. And that she would-- the school would receive the amount of money that was necessary for that. And so she did. She finished her education. She became a teacher and got married and had two children. Years later, when that judge died and they were settling his papers, they found a sealed envelope. And inside that sealed envelope was a handwritten note written by Charles Urchel, asking the judge to see that Pauline received the money for her education. But that he didn't want anyone to know that he was paying for it. So it was the victim, the kidnapped victim, who paid for her education. Isn't that a wonderful story? I think it is, because it's amazing. I think Nancy, we do so much on our tour on the A Keys of Excellence. It's a character education program for a free that is to really help kids and adults even remember about who they are and really develop that backbone and understand what integrity is about education. And that's what hit home for me, too. And that story, I was like, holy cow, look at that. It's about education and education. And I think Charles Urchel, he was a victim of the kidnapping. But he's a smart, intelligent man with education behind him. And he understood that the only way to stop the cycle was educated. So for him to do that, I think it's great. And it's great that even her daughter wanted to have an education, which is just-- that's a cool story. It's interesting, you know, the idea of blaming kids for the sins of the parents. And in some, like we just did an interview where one criminal follows past of his father, you know. And sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't, depending on the breaks in life they get, or their personal DNA makeup or their brain makeup, whatever. I think it's interesting. My guess is with J. Edgar Hoover as a big bullshit guy, heading to FBI was probably more incensed over a woman being a criminal than a man. You know. I would say so. Yeah, yeah. Not that she should be let off because she's a woman. But sometimes I just feel like men get really angry when a woman steps into their arena, which not saying, oh, men are criminals. I'm saying that I'm just saying that that is where you would expect to find more men than women. And in fact, Barbara, we've done interviews on women history month and everything. And I have historians that don't want to talk about the women criminal, because they don't want people to, it's fascinating to me, they don't want to talk about the only the good things women did. And I'm thinking, OK, I understand that. Yes, we, you know, the feminist side of things. And that's, you know, remember everyone were equal to men. It's not better. No, I'm kidding. But, you know, it's a-- I just died to throw that in there. It's for fun. But there's that side of, you know, history needs to be told. And it's like not wanting to see the good or the-- you can't choose history. History is what happened. It's just like things happen. And women, it just shows the creativity of her mind. Catherine Callie's got this amazing manipulative mind. But it shows creativity. All these-- Look how young. Look how young. All these criminals would have been great business people. But they were on the edge. If she could have directed all of that energy and creativity and she was very smart if she could have directed all of that in a positive direction. But that's not where she was. She thrived on the excitement and on the thrill and the danger. I think she really did. I think she really thrived on that. And in a way, all these malls-- I think they were sort of competing against one another. You know, their man was the best. And that was one reason why Catherine went into all that stuff about her big man, her machine gun Kelly, you know. Because their man was the biggest and the baddest. And they were part of that, part of that lifestyle. And the other thing was during that period, when they were running from the FBI, it's amazing how many people stepped in to help them. They gave them cars. They gave them places to stay. They just, you know, and they knew they were doing wrong. But yet, if there was an excitement that was just contagious with it, they wanted to be a part of that fabric. I know there is something exciting about someone doing something you want to know. Like, you want to check it out. I mean, Nancy and I have seen crime things happen in person. And there is something about watching it. And I want to know every-- I don't know. I'm just like, I'm not a gossipy, but there's that you want to see what's going on. What's going down. You want to know the inside track. And I think that's why we do what we do in business and life. I mean, not bad business, but that in the criminal, like, helping somebody get away with something you know. People don't always think that, but they're like, oh, no. It's just going to stay the night out of our house. No big deal. Well, yeah, you're helping them rob and kidnap someone or murder someone because they've got to be a friend or family member. But even still, there is that excitement of, you want the inside scoop. You want to get-- you want to know. There is that part of-- like, I have that in me, but I wouldn't have someone stay in my house. That's why we travel full time, Barbara. [LAUGHTER] Are you trying to tell me you're running from a law? Yeah. Yeah, right. Oh, well, I'm the lamb. Someone had to say that right in there. Your story. Yeah, from one part to the next. Yes. Right. You think about the eighth piece of excellence. We're on the lamb. OK. Barbara, are you ready to step in the time machine? I am. I promise to get the music straight. [LAUGHTER] Well, not really. [LAUGHTER] [MUSIC PLAYING] So, Barbara, we put you in the time machine. You've been floating around. Now you get to push the button. So what time period are you getting out and where and why? I would like to get out during the Victorian age. And that was sort of between 1837 and the early 1900s, 1901. Mainly because England was at peace then, it was a very productive and prosperous period of time. And it was the romanticism era. And I love classical music. I usually play it when I'm writing. And there are a lot of great classical musicians that came out of that period. So I would like to go back then. I think there are a lot of interesting things, don't you? Yeah, that and I have the art question too. Yeah, it's interesting. And it's classical because they also had that baroque music too, which I love to listen to the baroque style. You know, they use a lot of that music when people are going crazy. Yes, you do know that. Now, well, like Mozart in particular, there's some of the phrases that you play over and over again. And you could murder somebody to that music. No, in a crime scene. Baroque, this is great, this is great. No, because it does see the same chords over and over. Lo, lo, lo, lo. Machine gun Nancy right now. You could take like Norman Bates and put it to Mozart. Oh, that's all I'm playing. Oh, my gosh, I think it's-- well, no, there's this beautiful-- there's this beautiful soothing fight of music. And then I remember when I was a little girl, Nancy, you sat down with me on the piano, and I was learning piano. We're going to do the Warsaw Concerto. And I'm like, OK, I'll help break the blues, you know? I think classical music. Well, you know, what's interesting too is metal music. You know, metalheads learned off of classical music. I'm not going to talk about classical music, but classical music, I think it's really about dynamics. And so it's interesting that you use that to write in the background, but the dynamics of it is something that has to happen in a book. And I want to tell you, Katherine, Kelly, you know, the mole behind Machine Gun Kelly, you had a lot of dynamics. It wasn't fiction. It's nonfiction. And I just thought the way you wrote that, I flew through that book. No, but I really did. And so to me, and you told the different sides of the story and the different rumored stories, I love that book. So I hope you do another one like that. Because I know you go from fiction to that. Yeah, I want to know what you're playing when Machine Gun Kelly wasn't shot up a place. What's not where you're playing when you're writing about, you know, oh, my goodness, I probably the fourth season of all these four seasons, because that gives you such a rush. And you have all those different-- that's what it was for most people. No, but that is so trippy that you said that. Because as soon as you said about the classical music, my mind went to four seasons for some of these. That's weird. It is. I'm like, yeah, see, well, that's-- yeah, I just went there. I don't know. But that is really funny. That's funny. But I know. So we're going to have to do a show. I always like to ask writers of whether or not they listen to music when they're right. Because it's important. I find when we do different kinds of writing, but I'm a songwriter too. And there's a thing about-- sometimes you've got this story. You've got it in your head. You've got to plot it down and all that. But there's that annoyance part. Where do you start? Where do you just put it out there? And to me, you've got to queue up the right music. And then all of a sudden, I'm gone. I'm leaving me alone. It's a blank tale, yeah. It comes to you, yeah, that's sort of how I start. Sometimes I'll start with the title, which is strange. Because it can be triggered by a line of poetry or anything. But yet I know exactly what the story is going to be if I start with the beginning and I know the ending. And then I have all these key places in the middle that I want to get to. And that's how I create with the music in the background. It works for me. Yeah, I love it. Of course, the research was just enormous. It was an enormous act. But well worth it. I found out that, for instance, she had a pecanese dog. This was her own. And she called him Sammy. And I thought, well, this woman can't be all bad. She's a dog lover. She's a dog, that little dog. And now she has a little pecanese, so she can't be scared. She can't be scared. But now, learn that. Barbara, Barbara, there are serial killers that really hang out and cycle of dogs. And the animals and them get along. But then there is a true thing about it. If you're going to go on a date, make the man meet your dog first, and the dog will tell you-- Actually, I prefer the cat. Because the cat will know. I'm going back to Glenn on the show earlier today. So long for love and cats, though. Have geese. No, have geese. Barbara, we've got to run. It's been such a pleasure having you back on the show. Don't be a stranger. We can't let two, three years go by. That's just wrong. So I know you and Ron Chapasek will come back on. And we're going to talk about writing some more and get into the craft of writing and publishing and doing screenplays. Because now Ron's often doing a whole different-- Right, that's correct. You're doing nonfiction and fiction from what I'm hearing there, so-- Yeah, that's right. Well, I would love-- and thank you so much for inviting me. I've had such a good time. I love your show. And I'm following you on your trip. I just really wish you all the best. Thank you. Well, we'll come see you when we get to Georgia. OK. I'm drowning on it. Oh, yeah, for sure. We're not going to go back. We have all these battlefields, you know. These Civil War battlefields, so you have to come. OK, that's right. And then Andersonville, out in South Carolina, all that. Yeah, there's-- yeah, we've got a lot to do. I mean, it's just never ending. Thanks for joining us, Barbara. You take care of everyone. Again, the book, go get it by Barbara Casey. Catherine Kelly, the mole behind Machine Gun Kelly. It's on Amazon. Or go to strategicmediabooks.com. And you can keep up with Barbara at barberkacagency.com. Take care, Barbara. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. [MUSIC PLAYING] [EERIE MUSIC PLAYING] [EERIE MUSIC PLAYING] [EERIE MUSIC PLAYING] [EERIE MUSIC PLAYING] [EERIE MUSIC PLAYING] [EERIE MUSIC PLAYING] [EERIE MUSIC PLAYING] [EERIE MUSIC PLAYING] [EERIE MUSIC PLAYING] [EERIE MUSIC PLAYING] [EERIE MUSIC PLAYING]