Welcome to Big Blend Radio's Nature Connection Show with Lisa and Nancy Publishers of Big Blend Magazines and Nature photographer Margot Carrera. Welcome back everybody. Today Nancy, Margot and I are thrilled to have Environmental Attorney, Historian and Author Lowell E. Beyer return to the show here on the Nature Connection, Lowell was on our show earlier in the year talking about one of his, oh my gosh, he's written a lot of books and he's writing more, but we're going to be talking about his latest one. The other one was, well, there was a two-part series, the Codex of the Endangered Species Act. There was Volume 1 and 2 and now he's joining us to talk about Earth's emergency room saving species as the planet and politics get hotter and that is so true. The planet and politics, they really are getting hotter. So welcome back. How are you, Lowell? I'm very well. Thank you. Glad to have you here. I know Nancy's had her nose buried in Earth's emergency room. I know, Margot, you've been digging into it as well, but do you want to just start by giving everyone, we're going to talk about the Endangered Species Act as always, but I want everyone to know your book is out now and also go to the website ESA@50.com and that's the numbers 50 and the AT, so ESA@50.com, the links are in the show notes and of course you can get the books wherever books are sold. But can we kind of start off with the Endangered Species Act again for those who need to know about it because I know it is kind of a controversial act as well for some people, but if we can just give everybody a reminder of the importance of this act and how we need to hold on to it because I think it keeps getting under attack. That's correct, constantly. Yeah. There are, just as an example, statistically, in the last 25 years there have been 608 bills in Congress who either weaken or repeal the ESA. In the current Congress, there's over 50 right now, none of which have passed both houses, but it's constantly under attack attempting to either weaken or repeal it. What is the reason for that, do you think? What would be the primary reason for that? Many industries in this country that are large land users, like the farmers, the ranchers, the foresters, the miners and so forth, have to deal with the requirements of the act if they have endangered species on their property, and it's a time consuming and frustrating process for many folks, and that's why they're after repealing or weakening it entirely. And the importance of the act, I mean, because from when I was reading it seems like the act has protected species that really needed, and so that we don't do harm and maybe have better management over areas and the territories of these species. But at the same time as the species get put on the act, some are getting delisted, some are being removed when they maybe shouldn't be. I don't know if I'm saying that correctly, but it seems to me that we still have species that shouldn't be taken off. And then some are getting delisted because they're really now truly endangered and gone. We were just listening to an interview yesterday about the honey creepers in Hawaii and how they're having to come up with new ways of bringing mosquitoes in for them to save them. But I mean, they're threatened to be basically delisted and gone, right? If something doesn't happen drastically. Correct. That's correct. And so we got to do things. So tell us about Earth's emergency room. That's a good title. Well, the first two books of volumes one and two were called the Codex of the Endangered Species Act, the first 50 years. And the other one was the Codex of the Endangered Species Act, the next 50 years. They're very heavy in reading, they're deep in the weeds. They're really for the practitioners, the academics, and so forth that struggle to understand how the act got to be where it is today. And the publisher said, "Well, we need you to write a book that's sort of an abridgement of those two books and something more for the layman's benefit." And so I went ahead and started and then I realized that over six years of research, I had interviewed over 75 people all on recording and all the transcripts were typed up. And it was somewhere between 75 and 85 people that I interviewed. And I realized that there was a lot of backstories that people are not even aware of unless you were involved with a particular incident somewhere in America. And those backstories were full of human interest. And so I wrote an abridgment, but I wove into it much, many of the backstories that I heard. And so it includes, those backstories include sex, drugs, lots of violence, fist fights, a murder, a suicide, perjury, jail time, et cetera. And so those are interwoven over the 50-year history and that's what the book is all about. Well, that's interesting that you say that because, you know, people think that you're doing a book on sex drugs and rock and roll. How does that go and tie into, you know, wildlife and endangered species? But in all honesty, you know, I was talking about this with the lady the other day about what happens in our parks and public lands. We have park police for a reason. There's a lot of criminal activity. And that's why our system needs to have more funding, I think, to have more protection. Because I mean, you know, before marijuana was being made legal, a lot of times there were illegal camps of people growing pot in our national forests, which actually does disturb the environment, you know, that kind of agriculture and not done in a nice way, does, you know, you think about, you know, moonshiners back in the day and I don't want to be mean to moonshiners, but, you know, they would go out and do distilling on the side of a creek, but are they, you know, hurting like a salamander habitat, you know, maybe. Things like that. So, you know, when I bring up drugs, there's that and then there's trafficking, actual trafficking that happens through our wilderness areas, right? Well, most people are not even aware of the trafficking of endangered animals worldwide. Yeah. And America receives many of those wild animals that are listed as endangered in the countries of origin that they came from and in this country as well. And so the import of illegal animals taken illegally that are in crisis is a major problem and that's why we have such strong enforcement within the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Nancy, with you going in, I know you've been buried in the book, again, everyone in earth's emergency room by Lowell E. Bear, was, did any of the stories stand out for you that you wanted to talk about today? You know the thing that stands out for me because I've read a lot of books about this subject because that's where my brain goes, is the dehumanizing of animals as if animals do not have feelings in a lot of ways. So it's easy to exterminate something you feel doesn't have feelings. But if you go out in nature and you watch, like we've had the opportunity to go out, like in Africa watching a mother line with her cubs and in several examples, I could be gone for hours but I won't, of animals showing love to their children and protecting them as just like a human would. So you know, when we get to the science world, they kind of take that element out. And that's the thing where I think we become cold and think it's okay to exterminate and take over. That's the thing that I see as the biggest problem to saving plants in animals and land is the taking out of the caring factor as if it's all about money and animals don't have feelings. But I know that they actually do. And that's where I get stumbled, it's a stumbling block for me on how things are handled. Well, if that answers your question Lisa, but there it is. Well, do you want to touch on that? Well, I do because I agree with Nancy, I'm an older guy, maybe four, but I have spent an inordinate amount of time out in nature, not only in America and the North American continent, but around the world, observing wildlife. Yeah. Nancy's correct. When you watch a mother bear or a lion or any, you know, birds, watch how they care for their young, it's obvious that that expression of caring is prominent and the like. And if you've had anybody that's had two dogs or more, and one of them passes, the other goes into really a deep morning period. I've seen it. Yes, yes. We've had dogs over the years, always a pair, two or three, and my golly. When one of them passes, it's obvious that the absence of that creature is felt by its mate. By its, you know, it's mates. Yeah. And I've seen in a pond, like I've watched fish in a pond, I know it sounds really weird, but you look at fish in a pond out in the wild somewhere, and you will see, here comes the adult fish. Now, it's hard to tell unless you're really on it, the male from the female. But I know that when you see the stream of babies following, it's the female, and she shows them where to get the food, you know. And so I find it fascinating because we're just not that different. Well, this is why we're talking about the nature connection, right, is about having this connection with nature, getting to understand nature, the plants and the animals, like I talk to plants. I know that sounds weird. But I do, we are part, you know, we share DNA with trees and mushrooms and all of that. That's a whole other show now, we never stop. But we do. And so there's this connection, and you talk about this, even in the beginning of the book about the spiritual connection, right, there's this part of these connection with animals. But at the same time, there is this connection of not looking them at like getting to understand them, so we appreciate, admire, coexist, but then also not treat them like a toy, right. So when you see about people in Yellowstone, and you bring this up, one of your stories too, people feeding animals and then getting gorged and all of these stories we hear all the time. And you know, there's this connection we have to have, but I always feel like it's really urgent. So, Lowell, you want to talk about that balance in regards to some of the stories and the book? The balance between man and nature, or we're doing it, it's very prominent. I do want to make one follow up comment on Nancy's observation of feelings. Another way that animals are seriously impacted by man is destruction of their habitat and their migration patterns, and man does that without any concern, and it is very evident and it's also a breach of the Endangered Species Act when designated critical habitat is disturbed by man, and it affects not only the home of the animals, but their food source, and their nesting areas where they raise the young and interfere with their whole balance in migration, etc., etc. So getting back to your question, nature does have a balance. Now, when you do see fighting between animals, which occurs, but not very often, it's generally to protect the young, and nature, we call it the chain of life, if you will, where each depends upon the other for habitat, for food, the prey predator relationship, etc., and when man interferes with that balance, which he does, it is damaging to the creatures, and it's the chain of life, a very senior educator in this area, Aldo Leopold used to call it the web of life. One creature depends upon the other, whether it's an animal, a fish, aquatic species, insects, and so forth. We've got to give a shout out to Aldo Leopold, because the Hila wilderness, the very first wilderness areas in forest is 100 years old this year, which is awesome, and it's through him, and that's out in Southwest New Mexico, and Aldo Leopold is amazing, and I want to touch on what you're saying about also habitat, right, and so we have all these housing communities coming up around the country, and around the world with developers going in, and Nancy and I've seen firsthand, we had a development before we went on our tour in Tucson. We'd walk every morning, really early before the heat came in, and we got to know where all the birds were nesting and everything, and these developers started developing the land, and there's rules in place of not tearing down saguaros and barrel cactus, and we saw that they just bulldozed anyway, right, and they did anyway, and so we've talked to some environmental assessors for when it comes, like, for water and the environment for when developers happen, environmental engineers, and one lady said to me, she says, you know, Lisa, the problem is that humans are not getting involved beforehand, it's once developers are already working in a place where hell starts to happen, if there's, you know, we need to get, when somebody goes in for the land and people here, oh, we're going to save this piece of land for a frog, which happened up in Northern California, and there's certain places, you know, with that kind of thing, and people think, oh, it's only one species that web of life thing is so important, like what you're talking about, well, it's so huge, but we do really need to look at this, I mean, every place is so important, and yes, people are going to need homes, so we'll go back into that balance of, do we need a home here, how big do we need this home, do we need, you know, are we saving acreage when we purchase land, we're seeing a lot of private people, their private land turning their land into an oasis for wildlife, which I think is amazing, that they're learning now to, thereby, if they have the funds to do so, by huge tracts of land, but maintaining it for the wildlife and coexisting as we travel, which I think is a, because it's not all doom and gloom, it's scary what's happening right now, but we do see these places of joy, you know, when you see people do that, you know, that, you know, and it's cool, but on the other side of the coin, it's like we have, because we're human, and we've decided we have the best brains, and we're bigger, better, more effective than wildlife, that we have the right to control them, and here's, this is where we broke the link between the animals and the people, we broke it, and we need to fix it, and we are the ones who cause climate change, we're the ones causing the damage, so I don't think we're all that smart. You know, I died, now I'm going to get the news about that, but yeah, it's, yeah, come on, you know, it's about thinking outside the box, thinking about more than yourself, and understanding what you do every time you lay more tarmac, and you take away another wilderness area, and turn it into a housing project, pay paradise, yeah, Margot, what resonated for you, let me just comment on Nancy's observation, the expansion of the human population is the greatest danger to wildlife, and the balance of nature, only because they need a place to have a home, no matter how big or small, but they need a place to have a home, they need to have a place where they can go and shop and get groceries, and they need a place where they can go to work, and that, the expansion for those three requirements is very, very significant, which is the biggest problem with our decimation of habitat, and thank God we had the Wilderness Act and our National Parks, and some developers are in fact sensitive and conscious of their impact on the environment and work to restrain it as best they can, but the majority of them just are rampant with their destruction of this to create homes, factories, shopping centers, et cetera, or even their staff doesn't know when they go out there to do the bulldozing, you know, to grade the land, it could be, oh, we stand for this and you go out, oh, no, not really, your actions aren't, you know, so it's really important that as a citizens and non-citizens, whatever, shouldn't use that word, but as as human beings, go out and be part of what's going on in our community, so we can see what's happening to the land, you know, if something is coming in near a wildlife area that is a preserve, the more things, the best thing we can do is preserve the next piece of land next to it, we need all these buffer zones and, you know, things like that, and yes, we have to have industry apparently and, but we also need to look at our greed, I mean, we're in a digital age, which is great, we're not cutting down as many trees for paper, for magazines, right, but on the flip side, look at all the mining we're doing that's distracting habitats throughout the world for a computer screen, but our big corporate, you know, computer makers want us to have new programs, so therefore, we're like a laptop has what, two to three years life, our cell phone, it's like, we keep producing, producing, producing, so we also have to look at our shopping habits and have that communication with who we're buying from and their sustainability, you know, that that's the thing that gets me is everybody's so digital-minded and we are as a company for sure, but there is how many computers do we really need in a lifespan, you know, that's insane and then the landfolds, but I'm going back to Marco, Marco, what did you think on the book, Earth's emergency room everyone? Well, I can tell you that I am seeing perhaps here in San Diego, a little bit of evidence of that act being kind of taken away little by little, when I moved here, I followed the brown pelican, they were in danger, and there were a lot of new laws at that time and agencies that were working on restoring and helping them recover and down here, locally, La Jolla Cove is where they go to mate and raise their little ones, and then so as a photographer I used to go down all the time during that season so that I could take pictures and little by little they were recovering and they were saying that they were doing so well that they may be taken off of that and that was about a span of 30 to 20 years ago and they did well for a while, but now I'm seeing just in the news recently they were finding the pelicans dead on the beach and something is going very wrong for them and it could be climate change, not enough food, it could be, well because they raised their, you know, they have their nurse, I call it a nursery for them, in La Jolla Cove they're quite a sight and many people come to watch and many people don't necessarily stay away from them like I would take my long and long angle, you know, camera and I would, you know, take a distant picture but I would not go on the rocks where they were mating and you know, they have their nests, people are more interested and they're coming up and they're climbing the rocks and you know, so that's interfering with their whole cycle, yeah, so yeah, and I'm wondering also what else is out there as the act is weakened that is endangering these birds once again and maybe they need to be put back on the list, if you're finding them on the beach dad there's something very wrong, I have to, I'd have to look to see are they still listed, I can't remember, are they still listed as endangered or threatened? I would have to look it up as well, I just have a long memory back to where they were doing so well they were talking about taking it off the list, yeah, yeah, the biggest danger where many of our sea birds is the amount of plastic that's floating around in the ocean and I bet when they do autopsies on those birds they probably find that they've ingested plastic, exactly, and you know what like when we as we drive through the country we stop at rest areas, we'll see this, we'll see some people get out of their car and they take their trash out of their car and they go and put it in the proper trash disposal place and then we see others who just kick it out on the sidewalk or in the street or like the parking area, they just kick it out and leave their trash and they're like there's two kinds of people, there's the ones who get it and the ones who don't, yeah, and I think that's the point about doing books like what Lowell's written, isn't that part of what you've done with Earth's emergency room and even using that title, it's like hello, wake up call, we all end up in the emergency room and our wildlife is and our plants, all of that, with your book, isn't that part of like your inspiration is for people to find what they can do because maybe it is go clean up the beaches where Margot is to help the pelicans and to help the others see life get the plastic off, you know, maybe not use as much plastic is is that part of your call for this book? Yes, it is, anything that does affect the habitat of creatures, creatures, is a certainly a theme in that book, I want to comment on Margot's observation of the people climbing out on the rocks and disturbing those brown pelicans, yeah, I've talked earlier about tearing up habitat, but even disturbing habitat can upset the balance of, for example, mating, the mating cycles of those birds can be interrupted by people going out there to try to, you know, look at them and that's just another way animals are affected by man is man's intrusion into nature and causing animals to change their behavioral pattern because that again is just another, another issue that I've talked about when we talk about the invasion of our habitat, whether it's with a bulldozer or the casual visitor going out and bothering them, you know, there's a, there's a degree of interruption, it's how I think of it in my mind, where every animal bird insect fish has a, I don't know, I want to say envelope around them that says don't come closer than this and we don't know what that is like one fish will let you get right next to it, not Karen, the other won't, you know, so there's, there's an instinct of an animal and I think it has to do with the, in my mind, I say the speed in which they can run away or escape when somebody gets too close and I feel like humans are in the bumbling stage of not knowing or not caring, I'm not sure which it is, of when you get too close, it's so, it's, in answer is probably both. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think what that's the point of going to parks and engaging in the programs that you can be part of in parks, like it just did a show on the sequoias and there was an organization called Hiking My Feelings and this is a lady and her husband, they created a non-profit and they work with the Sequoia Parks Conservancy, the Sequoia Parks Conservancy helps the park system by not only other regular ranger programs that you can be involved with but they also bring up people and do programs like, you know, dark sky programs, they take people out and teach them the native peoples who, about the native peoples of the parks take them on hikes but this like, this hiking my feelings is helping people understand what, going through trauma and they hike and they actually go out and right now they're getting buffalo grass, orchard grass, excuse me, yeah, it's a whole other invasive species that I didn't know about but now I do and they go out and through healing nature and helping nature from what destruction we've put in, they're healing themselves and if you're involved in these kinds of programs, not necessarily just that one but maybe go on a park ranger hike where you get to understand, oh, look at this bug, oh, well, this bug is important because this is what feeds this bird and this bird does this, then you start to get that web of life and, you know, the web of life we learned about that in King's Canyon, there was a John Muir impersonator and he made everybody stand in a circle and hold hands and this is pre-COVID, right? And he explained, he says, what are you, what are you, what are you, you know, if you're going to be part of the natural surroundings and taught us all what the web of life was and how connected we were by holding hands with those different species and I think that's how we get it. I think it's by books like what Lowell's done, I think it's by doing podcasts, it's anything you can read and learn about, then you start to really understand, it's humbling and exciting and thrilling at the same time when you start to understand our natural planet, it's amazing and then you have this real respect for the species, you have a respect for how the law on order works of the natural world. I mean, Lowell, I know you've done a lot of law in order in the human world, my gosh, I'd rather do the law in order of the natural world, but those things help and as this year, you know, talking about things are heating up, things are, it's either really hot or really cold. Nancy and I have got, you know, we travel full time on our parks tour and we've seen so many different changes in the weather, it's incredible, I mean, absolutely insane and we've driven through everything, everything and now when we look at it, we're going, climate change is definitely real, you can see the landscape changing where, you know, maybe you had three months of summer, now you're having four to five, well that changes the landscape, the habitats which changes how the animals are, so we have that but you also say politics are getting hotter and it, death, that is like no joke and that's internationally, I mean, if you look at the fights we're having in this country, we're having them on an international level and with climate change being our biggest threat, really, think about it, I think it's really important that we vote for nature, what do you think Lowell, is that also part of your book wanting people to look at that of who we are voting for, are they voting for nature's rights? The answer is yes, absolutely, people, when they even go to the ballot box, they've got to have an environmental conscience about them and have studied their candidate's positions before they vote. We're so divided in this country and it seems as though one party is more into promoting capitalism and money making by the major corporations and the like who fund their campaigns and the other party is more respectful of the economy and I'm sorry, of nature's role in our economy and have not a focus on the quarterly earnings four times a year, but on the bigger picture, the long-term picture of what's going to happen when, for example, pollinators are gone and the food and drug supply that they pollinate have substantially dropped or been eliminated, we've all gone through the period during the COVID crisis when you would go in, the supply chains had broken down and you'd go to the store and there would be just empty shelves in the life and why, why, well, picture that same problem as climate change increases and the heat increases and all of a sudden our pollinators are further dying off and I'm talking primarily of bees, butterflies, birds and so forth. You realize that in the last 25 years, we have lost 9 billion, 9 billion birds, which 25% of our bird population, the butterfly, just the monarch species alone, we've lost 90 to 95% of both the eastern and western monarch populations and other butterfly species as well, but everyone knows what a monarch is, that's why I point that out and 50% of our drug supply comes from pollinated plants out in the countryside and I'm very, very concerned about that and I'm not sure I've responded properly to your question. Yeah, no, no, I think you have, I mean, we've got to vote for our nature because our food's going to go away if we don't. That's right. Long term. And clean air, clean air, I mean, if we don't plant trees and do that, also in what you're saying to, you know, we're threatened with basically with climate change, but we're really like we're going to have, we're going to have a dust bowl again, we don't watch it. What's. Go ahead, Lo. Here, here's what's going on. We have a biodiversity crisis going on in the world and biodiversity, in simple definition, it's all living organisms on the planet, whether it be a microorganism or a mega forma and it includes plants, animals, insects, aquatic species, fish and so forth. And those all are being affected by this climate change. And it's exacerbating the imbalance of our biodiversity crisis. And it's frightening. Let me give you an example that I've used that seems to resonate with the public picture, a great big green balloon that's full, a great big green balloon. That's the world. The world of all the species of the world, of all of our biodiversity organisms within that balloon. Every time one of them goes extinct, a little air is left out. And then a little air with the next species that's gone extinct, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Eventually, when that balloon is emptied of its species, it collapses and dies. It falls on the floor. And man, man, it's just one of the many species within that balloon. Wow. Wow. That's a good analogy for everyone to grasp. And we also, I think that man thinks they can fix anything. And well, they do. And but while we're trying thinking that we can do and think and fix anything that happens, you can't replace an endangered species that each species in my mind is connected to another one, to another one, to another one, and it all leads up to where we are. And we're the ones destroying. We're the ones making fences to keep migrating animals from where they naturally migrate, which is kind of a self-defeating act. Every time we do something against nature, we are killing ourselves. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly. That's very well put. Yeah. And it really makes me angry. I know. But listen, but then the fixing part, we've got to also look at the positive that we can fix things. We have the ability. You know, we're looking at these, you know, while some places are putting up fences and walls, other places are putting up highways, wildlife corridor highways, which are crucial. I love these highways. And I, you know, it's just, you know, for wildlife, it's something good for wildlife. And that's that coexistence. And I don't know how much data is out there for how well they've worked yet, because a lot of it is pretty new. But there's been roles, there's been some of those highways out there for a while, right? Like maybe at least 10 years, I think some of them. Maybe up in Wyoming, I think it was, or Montana that did those highways. I mean, if you were a big horn sheep, do you really want to walk on pavement over a bunch of-- No, but it's-- But it's not. It's corridors that go over the highways and like wildlife are being-- Yeah, it's better. But the wildlife has to learn to modify their natural behavior to actually walk on pavement over a bunch of traveling cars that are underneath him, noises emitting fumes and all that. But they're putting nature. They're putting nature on that habitat too. So I think it's a positive. It's a positive. It's a positive. But it's a long-term thing. The animals have to readjust. Well, and that's also a problem because people don't like long-term. Well, but they get animals. The Nancy Yu mentioned about the potential death of man because of all of our species dying off and lack of habitat, et cetera, et cetera. Let me give you in your listeners a couple of statistics because it's-- the Endangered Species Act is frequently attacked because the naysayers say, "Well, look. You've only delisted over-- in the last 50 years, you've only delisted 126 species." And they're on the list today of threatened or endangered. There is between 1,670 and 1,680 species. And it floats back and forth as species are added and delisted. So the naysayers say, "Look, you've only delisted 126 species." And also, 23 species during this period of listing species, 23 of them have gone extinct. So you're not doing a very good job. Well, what they fail to recognize or acknowledge is that of the 1670 or 80 species, if we did not have an Endangered Species Act, most of them would be gone already. Already, yes. And gone extinct, but for the recovery and protection under the Endangered Species Act. And I just want to make that point that how important the act is because by its very nature, it is saved over 1,160 species. Yeah, and see, the thing is we should have-- it's unfortunate we didn't start sooner or modify our personal behaviors, okay, before we did all this damage. Well, John Dingle from Michigan, Congressman John Dingle, Jr., introduced the first Endangered Species Act in 1966. Wow. And he could see and was very concerned about the extinction that was going on back then. And he amended the act in '69, Congress did, and added foreign species to it. But the act that we deal with today, again, was driven by the champion John Dingle, Jr. in 1973, and it really put some teeth into it. But they were working, they were concerned not only in the Congress, but across the country back in the early '60s because of a loss and publication of species that were in danger like whales, like the condor, the bald eagle, black-footed ferrets, then whooping grain. And that's what got the public growled up because their extinction was very potential back then. And so, you know, they-- and John was paying a chance. And John and I go way, way back. And he was a page boy in the house in 1935. I was a page boy in the house in 1956, and realized, joked about, he got there ahead of me. Well, he went on to be elected office after his father passed. And he stepped in and took that particular district's position. But anyway, all I'm saying is there was serious concern back in the '60s because of the notable species that were then endangered. Yeah. But we've also talked, you know, our late and great friend, Adam Roberts, was very involved in wildlife conversation around the world. He was the CEO of Born Free USA for many years. He went to CITES. We did live broadcasts from CITES, all over the world whenever he went to CITES to stand up for wildlife. And he made the point about change that human beings can change without always having to be there in the impact. He talked about the whales, the humpback whales, the world stood up for humpback whales, and you talked about the Midwest, which I know you've got roots there, Lowell, was epic. The Midwestners who had never maybe even been to the beach yet, right, or through the coast, stood up for humpback whales, even if they've never physically seen them. Now in this day and age, we can turn on any TV show or animal planet, David Attenborough. We love David. You know, you can watch animals around the world and look on your computer, which we have this amazing technology to be able to see that. So we don't actually have to be in their habitat and destroy or destruct, right? And it does those scientific evidence and Margot, we've talked about this, just like what you do as a photographer and your products that you do, you know, someone can look at a piece of nature, a picture of nature, and it automatically heals us in many ways. Stress, release, feel better, be more, be kinder, you know, it has positive effects for us. And so people back in the sixties and seventies stood up for these whales and the whipping cranes and maybe never saw them, but they stood up for them. So I believe in the human spirit of positive change, you know, and I just think we're so focused on arguing instead of actually doing what needs to happen. And so I encourage people to go and get your book because I think it really, it's stories and that's the important thing. I think we all connect with stories and so and go to Earth's emergency room, saving species as the planet and politics get hotter again by environmental attorney and historian Lowell E. Bear. That's be, I'm excusing B-A-I-E-R and keep up with the website. It is E-S-A Endangered Species Act, A-T, so at 5-O.com, go there. But in closing, Margot, anything you have in closing with, we could talk for hours. I know. There was just an example of kind of pulling it all together. The importance of the web of life is what we're talking about and what Lowell's saying. The Species Act just is saving or trying to save is an example, again, I can only bring it to where I live. The famous Torrey Pines here in San Diego are dying right now also because the beetles are destroying them and I question, I put the question out, when I see that, what bird is missing that normally ate the beetles that kept the balance of nature? So when you lose a species, whether it's a bird or a bug or a pollinator, you basically start to let the air out of that balloon and what's next? What are we losing next? Maybe it's not a species, maybe it's a plant, maybe it's a tree, maybe it's our clean water. It's just we have to go to the emergency room and take action now and learn from Lowell's book and just thank you, Lowell, for your work. Yes. That's a wonderful observation that you have just made, Margot, I really, it's a capital idea and a capital observation, brilliant, brilliant. Thank you. Thank you. It's so true. If you watch outside just your window, okay, into your own garden or backyard, even the street, you will see animals trying to adapt to what we've done. I want to, we didn't adapt to them, we have forced every other species on earth to adapt to us. I want to, we're going to pay for it. We are, but if we can do the positive change, right, and I love the blue balloon. No, I think I'm going to put a big green balloon on the back of my car. Yeah. I am. I'm going to, I'm going to, it's like, are you going to deflate the bad green balloon? I kind of feel like that is such a good thing that every time we do anything, any action, any purchase, any, any vote, everything, every action we do, right? It's kind of one of, it's a way of making a decision, a good decision. Is this going to deflate or inflate the green balloon to keep them behind that? It's perfect. You know, I want to go back to, you said whooping crane. I don't know if I said it right. Nancy, you always yell at me for not saying, because I say whooping crane, whooping crane? But the cranes, I want to say Nancy and I had the utter privilege to witness whooping cranes in Aranza's National Wildlife Refuge this year, we are very lucky. And we got there, we were out in the Wildlife Refuge and saw a couple, and they just, how they, they were together and they're so streamlined in how they work together to eat and nurture. I mean, it was this beautiful, magnificent experience, and we saw many other couples, right? In history, I mean, they really went down to almost none. I mean, we, I think we were down to three or four, maybe eight, was a maximum number. And you talk about the Endangered Species Act. And so when you see that you can actually witness these birds, you really feel special, right? Really lucky. But they, they come down to the Texas Gulf Coast every winter. And now they have a whooping crane festival in Port Aranza, Texas. And this actually started, not just this whole, there was a whooping crane day, which I get, it was May 28th this year. And I didn't know all this happened, but it just all kind of, the cranes just kind of enveloped into our life. But it started with an organization, I think out of Wisconsin, about having a whooping crane day and understanding them. And I think the first time we saw cranes, one of them where it was in Madison and in Arboretum. But these were the whooping cranes. And there's, so there's, yeah, but so here's a success. They went from less than 10 to 505 now. So that sounds great. I think 505 is terrifying lol. Like I know we've made progress, but I'm like, holy cow, when we see Canada geese everywhere, I want the cranes to be like the Canada geese. And they can do if we don't keep destroying their habitat, but one thing I noticed while we were watching them, and I'm still wondering which is a male or female because they were often couples. And I noticed that one always was looking out around about while the other one packed an aid. Yeah. And when that one put its head up, the other one would eat and the other one would watch. So when you have the opportunity to actually go outside and really observe animal behavior, you learn more about humanity than you would think and how to work together. And what is, what do they, what do these birds, animals, insects, plants really need? You know, we're not going to go anywhere without any plants, none of us. We all survive on plants no matter how you think, because they provide the oxygen. So you know, we got to start thinking in terms of, if we're going to be selfish, let's be selfish on the right side of the book, try to save the plants and animals so we can save ourselves. Yeah, I just want to go back to that 505 of the whooping grain. Well, so we need more, right? Oh, absolutely. We shouldn't just go. That was, yeah. That's a very small population number that we need for maximum recovery. Mm-hmm. Okay. So it's still a success story, but we're not done and we're not done. So it's like, yeah, pet yourself on the back, but like now that you know it proves we can do it. Exactly. That's what I say. You're saying Nancy earlier that men always thinks they can fix everything. We can fix things. And maybe we should focus on that and these kinds of things and, well, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a true honor to have you back on the show. Well, thank you, Lisa, and I'm delighted to share my research with you and all your listeners. Thank you. And the next book is coming out because we know you're not stopping. We love that about it or not. That's right. That's right. Thank you. Okay. Take care. Thank you, everyone, for joining us. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Big Blend Radio's Nature Connection show. Follow us at Big Blend Radio dot com and keep up with Margo at MargoKorera dot Etsy dot com. [MUSIC]
