The Cārvāka Podcast

Supreme Court Grants Maintenance To Muslim Women

In this podcast, Kushal speaks with Nikhil Mehra and Arshia Malik about the recent ruling by the two-judge bench of Justices B. V. Nagarathna and Augustine George Masih confirming that Muslim women can claim maintenance from their divorced husbands under Section 125 of the Code of Criminal Procedure (CrPC), 1973. The decision emphasises that Section 125 CrPC applies to all women, not just those who are married.

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Duration:: 1h 11m
Broadcast on:: 15 Jul 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

Namaste, everyone. Welcome to the Charvak Podcast. This is your host, Khushal Meera. All right, a few days ago, the Supreme Court had given a ruling. This was a two-judge bench of B. V. Nagratna and Augustine George. And they basically confirmed that Muslim women can claim maintenance from their divorced husbands under Section 125 of the Code of Criminal Procedure CRPC 1973. The decision has basically emphasized that Section 125 CRPC applies to all women and not just those who are married. So post that, there has been a lot of discussion back and forth about what is applicable, what is not applicable. Today, I have Nikhil Meera who's going to be dealing with the legal side and obviously Arshay Malik is going to be talking about the Muslim women's perspective and the societal problems. But before I get both of you in, I want to play a wonderful clip of Kamal Faruki from the All India Muslim Personal Law Board. Just give me 45 seconds. I want to play that clip for both of you. Faruki Saab is a personal best friend of Arshaya. Sorry, I had to say that. Please, no friend of mine. So I just want to play this clip. This is Kamal Faruki Ji and let's hear what you're saying. I want to thank you for having me here. I want to thank you very much for being here. I want to thank you for being here. I want to thank you for being here. Because that's not a part of my constitution. My constitution very firmly gives me the right to follow my religion whether I am a Muslim, Hindu, whether I am a santan or rather, constitution has given me the right. Unless it is a criminality of anything. I want to thank you for being here. I want to thank you for being here. I want to thank you for being here. I want to thank you for being here. I want to thank you for being here. I want to thank you for being here. I want to thank you for being here. I want to thank you for being here. Arthad, for those who don't understand Hindi or do English, I'll translate it in English for them. Mr. Faruki is saying that we are going to challenge this in the Supreme Court. We are opposed to the Uniform Civil Court. We cannot accept something like this because at the end of the day, this is an interference with our religious faith. So how about this? I want Arshia. I'll come to Nikhil for the legal stuff. But Arshia, how do you feel, A, about this ruling? B, about Mr. Faruki. Of course, the ruling is a personal victory. But she suffered for more than two decades because of the triple the lock. And no independence. We were minor children. My sister and me. She had to take shelter in her parents' home, along with the four brothers, Armita, the girls. And the sisters. In the 90s, there is no reports to what you have civil courts, because you can pull up the meetings and show your courts. So, now, I'm not exposed to the shawarma. In case I realized it's family there. You know, there is something for a refugee. I only do myself as a law board. Just for a refugee salary. You know, he is speaking this. And it's the personal victory, actually. Though, in reality, I know that even despite the doesn't being passed, it's limited. It is Muslim men always navigate these incidents. They will find a way and in no less help with them. I remember following Shabano's case. I remember following Shabano's case. I remember following Shabano's case. I remember that this happened on a decision. I share your voice is really breaking up. I think there's an issue at your end. I share your voice is breaking up. No, no, no. Your voice is breaking up. I think it's something to do. Either you'll have to change your cell phone. You can't come from your cell phone because it's a static disturbance. You have to exit and come back and try in the meantime. I'll go to Nikhil who can explain the law. All right, Nikhil, bowl. You're muted, Nikhil. Sorry. Hi, Kasha. Thanks for having me. Look, I think much is being made of this judgment primarily because people are not aware of what the law already was. There was a huge conflict within created between Parliament and judiciary by the passage of the 1986 act. But let me come to that later. What is the Shabano judgment? The Shabano judgment actually only upholds what was already being done in the 1980s. That is prior to the passage of this act. Where the real question was section 125 CRPC sets up a maintenance provision, a summary proceeding for maintenance, which is a right not given merely to wives but to other dependents of a person who is capable of maintaining those as the obligation of maintaining them. These are the kind of provisions that actually recognize the fact that patriarchy was a major issue in India and that the principal income holder in almost every family used to be the male, the head male. And it was their obligation to maintain various members of the family, whether it be the wife, the children, parents, etc. So a summary procedure existed in the CRPC which originally used to limit the maintenance to only 125 rupees a month. That was then changed to 500 rupees a month. That is where tapping on it. That capping over time has gone away. But the idea was this that anybody could apply secular provision of law. It had its own code 125 to 127 circumstances in which it could be modified could be varied. Certain conditions to be met. For example, the person who was asked to pay the maintenance had to have ability to pay the maintenance. The people who had to take the maintenance had to show that in fact they have no capacity to subsist without this money. And those circumstances being as they are, they follow in the secular domain and largely speaking, personal law was considered to be something separate to this. In Muslim personal law, obligation of maintenance is only for the period of Idad. Idad is the first menstrual cycle posted divorce or the first three menstrual cycles posted divorce. And therefore what would happen is that in a three month period there would be maintenance for which during which time provision was made and that was the end of that. What they did with the 86 Act, which is the Muslim protection of women on divorce act, protection of Muslim women from Muslim protection of women at the time of divorce act. I am just looking for my copy of my act about the other act here. Anyway, it does not matter. They set up a section three, which essentially created this obligation. If you can pull that up, push it along and really help. Okay, what's the name of the act? Exact act with a protection of 86, you wrote this in Muslim women protection of rights at the time of divorce act 1986. Protection of, right, so 1986, so Pusca PDF, my download girl, Pusca section gone, sir, three, section three. Okay, got it. Section three, I'm just pulling it up, okay. Meher and other properties of Muslims, yeah? Once you pull it up, then I sort of explain certain issues in this. Here you go. Yeah, so you see that first clause, right? The title of the section, Meher or other properties of Muslim women to be given to her at the time of divorce. Now bear in mind, 125 doesn't apply merely to divorce. It applies to even a state of subsistence and marriage in which a person is refusing to maintain his wife in the marriage without even granting divorce. So 125 is a much broader remedy, right? This says notwithstanding anything contained in any other law for the time being enforced. This is a very important clause. This is an important interpretation that arises. In law, we call this a non-abstantic clause. This is a clause that essentially says that no other law can prevail over this section, right? So the idea at the time of passing, as per the Muslim, as per the, I wouldn't be using the Muslim side, as per the Muslim personal law board and other similar bodies, was that the use of the non-abstantic clause is in relation to section 125. And there's a section 5 that also deals with 125. The idea being that this is actually the Shahbarah judgment being undone, the Shahbarah judgment had said that you cannot say that 125 right cannot be given to Muslim women. That is the right given to all, regardless of the religion. So there is no, it is not religion specific at all. And personal law will not limit that secular law. So this section they say is enacted in this manner to override 125 and override that interpretation of the Supreme Court had given to section 125 in relation to Muslim. Right? And then it goes on to say, a divorced woman shall be entitled to a reasonable and fair provision and maintenance to be made and paid to her within the, in the period by her former husband. Wherein she, where she herself maintains a children want to her before or after her divorce, a reasonable and fair provision and maintenance to be made and paid by her former husband for a period of two years from the respective dates of the birth of such children. An amount equal to some of Meher or Dower has agreed to be paid to her at the time of a marriage. Meher or Dower essentially is because Muslim marriage is a contract, unlike a sacrament in say Hindu law. The, there is a contractually agreed amount, which would be the Meher of a woman, which is her maintenance right, which is a Dower to be given. It's not a maintenance right, it's a Dower to be given. But please come back now for a moment to this 318, a reasonable and fair provision and maintenance to be made and paid to her within the period by her former husband. The interpretation, the Muslim personal law board and similar body were placing was that the use of the word within the in the period implies that this amount has to be paid only during the period with them, which would be the only interpretation in actual comfort with Shariah. And so therefore, their idea was that this is a very limited provision for a period of time. Of course, in relation to children, it is for a longer period of time, that is for two years after the, after the, for two years after the birth, all of this they say is in comfort with Shariah and the act was enacted in comfort with Shariah. The Supreme Court very early on, had started to reinterpret this to say, look, if you were to hold that the words within the in the period by her former husband implies that the payment is to be limited to that period, then you are creating an unfairness against Muslim women that does not exist for anyone else. And we will apply article 14, 15 and 21 against you, right. Typically, personal laws are not subject to such remedies. You don't apply 14, 15 and 21 to them, because they fall at the first annual pretty much if you apply logical modern principles of, keep the section up, I'm telling you, keep the section up, we'll go through the section. Now, this is past in 86, right. And this is immediately challenged. Now, of course, being challenged by Muslim women and by those who are representing Muslim women and want for their better men. But before I go to the challenge, let me go again to section two, sub, sub section two, where a reasonable and fair provision and maintenance or the amount of Maha or Dua, Maha or Daul do has not been made or paid or the property referred to in clause D or one have not been delivered to a divorced woman. She or anyone duly authorized by her may or may have make an application to a magistrate for an order of payment for such provision and maintenance, Maha or Dua or the delivery of properties as the case may be. So she is allowed to enforce to this extent. Now, what was D? All the property is given to her before or at the time of marriage or after her marriage by her relatives or friends or husbands or any relatives of the husbands or his friends. Now, there is a peculiarity again even in Muslim succession law that even if a will is enacted in favor of a daughter by her father of his personally acquired property, he actually doesn't receive it unconditionally and cannot dispose of it unconditionally. Her power of disposal of it is still dependent upon persons who are a senior in the family, for example, the brother of the father or other male members of the family. And so, this is not a complete independence in the way in which it might appear to be. So, come to subsection four, run each other. Here you go. Yeah, in fact, we'll go to section four. We are there. Now, look at section four. Just in all cases of marriage where Indian law applies, this is actually a global phenomenon. You may choose a different standard. But really, the end of our marriage is in part, not entirely, in part a purely financial question. There are financial burdens that need to get allocated. So, in the very progressive laws of say, a state like California and the US or other states in the US. And what we typically hear of American law and a lot of your viewers are very used to this year, you get half the property, half the property, you half the property, guess the other. That idea of half the property is that all the property that you have created during the time in marriage, which is common marital property, that gets split. Now, people marry young, so almost all of their property comes at the time of marriage. And inheritance also comes at the time of marriage. So, they are suddenly, that all of that becomes part of that common hotspot and that gets split. There are certain states in which, let me give you an example, a professional licensure that you receive that allows you to earn income. So, example, if I pass a New York bar, not allows me to work as a lawyer, if I pass the bar prepared for it, passed it during the time, during the subsistence of my marriage, then my income arising from that license is also deemed to be a part of the marital property. That is one way, that is one example. In India, we follow standard of maintenance, but that is again a financial allocation. In India, we follow the standard of maintenance. Maintenance is a reasonable standard applied in the context of what you are already used to as a standard of living in marriage. Otherwise, what would happen is it would be penal for poor people and extremely easy for rich people. So, you need to have that balancing act happen and that is subjective to each fact situation. Now, please in that context, see section four. This one just point out that when a divorce happens, you have to have, because patriarchy still remains the norm, no no section four, just leave it there. Patriarchy still remains the norm, men are in control of asset and of income. What happens is that if price allocation has to happen to the divorce. Now, the state could have various options. It could say, well, we could do it from our taxes or we could do it from some other body, but the state does not take the responsibility on itself. The state pins the responsibility on the marital property. Under Hindu law today, if you are a husband who earns a lot less than the wife, you can claim maintenance from the wife at the time of divorce and these orders have been passed by the icons and upheld by the icons, passed by the family courts and upheld thereafter by the icons. So, there is a certain standard of living. This is the cost allocation we do, which is a standard of maintenance. Now, in the context of this, please see section four. Not withstanding anything contained in the foregoing provisions of this act or in any other law for the time being enforced. Again, the same thing, any other law for the timing, but this means this is supposed to prevail over everything. Where a magistrate is satisfied that divorce from one has not been married and is not able to maintain herself after the hit the period. He may make an order directing such of a relatives as would be entitled to inherit her property on her death. According to Muslim law to pay such reasonable and fair maintenance to her, he may be determined fit and proper. Having regard to the needs of the divorced woman, the standard of life enjoyed by her during a marriage and a means. Nikhil, I have a question here and maybe even Arshyar Mirgoy question, please, let me ask. So, a reasonable and fair, what is the map then? Like, what is the measure? This is entirely subjective, but the focus here, what I want to point out is not reasonable and fair. Please look at who is the paying party here. Just look at the second part of that section 4. He may make an order. This is the magistrate directing such of her relatives as would be entitled to inherit her property on her death. According to Muslim law to pay such reasonable and fair maintenance to her. So, the husband is out the relatives now have to look after you. Right, this is completely peculiar. This doesn't exist in any other legal system. Right, I am not saying Indian legal system, it is something in the Muslim legal system here. The obligation is taken away from the husband, he literally watches his hands away and walks away. And it is literally the family of this woman who is required to take care of her. If you read on further in this section and magistrate then is of the view, then none of these can do it, then the works board has to do. And that reinforces the works board even further. See, that comes in in your subsection 2, where a diverse woman is unable to maintain herself and has no relatives or such relatives or any of them have not enough means to pay the maintenance ordered by the magistrate of the relatives. I have not the means to pay the share of those relatives whose shares have been ordered by the magistrate to be paid by such relatives under the second proviso. The magistrate may buy or direct the state works board established under section 9 of the work fact or under any other law of the time being forced in a state functioning in the area in which the woman is right to pay such maintenance. So you take away the cost from the husband and you put it onto either her relatives or onto the box board. So this was the original interpretation. Now if you go back again to section 4-1, what the Muslim law, Muslim personal law board side is going to scroll up a little, they are saying, look, this section says, is satisfied that divorce, this is the third line I am reading, divorce woman has not remarried, and he is. Nichelia frozen. Nichelia frozen. Okay, maybe we are just going to have an internet bonanza day where what's our chef please just now Nichelia please. Now Nichelia is back. I'm sorry, welcome to Gurgaon, the smart city of this country where essentially rain happens three days ago and light keeps going for the rest of your lifetime. So now I'm on my backup internet as it was. Now it is, right. But what I was trying to point out is they say woman has not remarried and is not able to maintain herself after the period. That means what we had read in section three should owe me in that that maintenance and provision should be only for the either. Right. Now this judgment will come to later, but there is a judgment that challenged that he said he was born. Daniel Latifi versus state of UP. This comes 2001 and Daniel Latifi very clearly takes the view that you cannot house 125. And that in fact the way section three is set up, if I were to take the interpretation that the payment has to be made only for the period of with the and after that I'm going to make the woman run around under section four to go get an order from a magistrate then find these relatives, get those relatives to pay, pay won't pay, then chase the work. This is unfair. We will not we will not accept this interpretation. So they interpret section three sub clause one sub clause three one a to mean that the that the facility of what the amount of maintenance will be and what will have to be done and completed during the period of with them. But the payment will be for the lifetime. Right. And if we don't interpret it in that manner, then this section is unconstitutional. That was the judgment in Daniel Latifi. Subsequently, several other judgments came. They are all consistent on the point at 125 will apply. So this is why this judgment today when it has come it it does not really set the field in a in a new way. It's just that our memory runs short and we keep forgetting about all of these six. Or to think about Daniel Latifi's judgment that comes during the first BJP government in 2001. This union government actually argues that you are allowed to follow personal law exactly in line with that little clip that you paid played at the beginning and that personal law will prevail. That's what they argue because they are looking at the larger picture. They need to protect certain other personal laws as well. So they are actually argued a position which is a very regressive position. Right. But the court has never taken that position. The court has never accepted us. So let me put it this way in very pithy terms. Everybody understands the importance of the Shahbanu judgment. The Shahbanu judgment was supposed to have been overwritten by this act. But the judiciary keeps coming back and finding ways to make Shahbanu enforced. Right. So the law of the land has always been the Shahbanu. Okay. But I want to come to you Arshia now. Arshia if Nikhil is explaining this. So this is how I have understood and Nikhil correct me if I have misunderstood you. Are there problems? Yes. But subsequent judgments from the courts in India have actually given Muslim women a lot of rights. But then Arshia when the proof of the pudding is in the eating as they say and in reality as you were stating your own family's case, your own mother's journey, how she suffered, how you both of you suffered as in your the children suffered. So how does one go about it? What is the reality? Like Aikothaki Abner-Lobanadi Aikothaki Lokka Karne. Tukka hai ous meowo kathini or Karne image of antarvoltan Arshia. One thing that I got from Nikhil's this whole explanation is Nikhil when he said that somehow the judgments managed to put the personal laws, they interpreted in such a way that the relatives of the two ones will take care of. This is true in my case, you know, because when mother she had to take shelter in her parents' house, there was no obligation from the father or the father's family. So you'll have to understand your Muslim culture. It's usually the uncle's, the paternal uncle's, the paternal home should be taking care of the children. This is an Islamic social residue on it. But what happens when there is this either an instrument of the law, these days is the illegal divorce or in case of a divorce. So what they do, Aikothaki says, they complete this three month either period, Nikhil is saying something and they put the whole onus of maintenance and taking care on the woman's family, in which case my maternal uncles have to take care of two minus children along the list. So the father was completely out in three. Nobody could ask him, no Sharia court took any accountability. The Mala committee people never dragged him down, you know, asking for it. The only thing that the community elders got together and they just advise the man, he was supposed to do this. Otherwise, there was no legal, I mean, we didn't know we were supposed to go to court. Even if he went to court, they would only be a Sharia lawyer, you know, who would only interpret it in the Islamic way. So this is it. I mean, the judgment is there, should have been from 1986. Aikothaki said the law of the land is always built in Muslim women, but like it happened, you know, it was overturned, it gave a big boost to the Muslim Muslim law board members, the clergy, the orthodoxy, the conservatives, and I mean, that's that's it. Michael wanted to say something, Michael was saying something. Go ahead, Michael. Huh, Nikhil, you'll have to unmute yourself. Yeah, actually, you had asked the question of what happened in the case of an illegal divorce. That is actually a major contribution of the judgment. It takes care of exactly that point. And it specifies that in the case of an illegal divorce, I'll read it because they interpret it. They put this down in express terms in a summary order. After writing 99 pages of judgment, they put down one page of a summary order. And the summary order says, in case of an illegal divorce, as for the provisions of the 2019 act, that is the triple-color act. The relief under section five of the act would not could be a wait for seeking subsistence allowance or at the option of a Muslim woman remedy under 125 CRPC can also be a wait. If during the penancy, a penancy or petition under 125 CRPC, a Muslim woman is divorced. Then she can take recourse under 125 or file a petition in 2019. The provision of the 2019 act provide remedy in addition to and not in derivation of 125 CRPC. So that particular peculiarity has also been accommodated in this judgment. Look, there's a lot of different stages at which maintenance can be paid and collapse all of that together and make it completely clear who can take maintenance at what stage in what manner. But the first principles and 125 applies, regardless of the 1986 act, that position has stayed for a while. So, perhaps the question in that context then is that it is not as if 125 remedy did not exist, but ask any lawyer who practices if you go to the Manila courts and places like Delhi, I mean, Delhi has a sizable Muslim population. And if you go to the Manila courts in any of the trial courts, you rarely ever see Muslim names in the causalists. So, it's not either Muslim or actually availing of these provisions. That is a more societal problem, right? I mean, if you don't get to court, a court can't help you. So, perhaps a larger problem is how do you get them to court? They are not aware of it. Even the day the judgment was, the ruling came up. Even 24 hours later, Muslim people had no idea of the setup. Even though today you have the television, you have internet, you have to do everything. Then, even the Muslim men, they work as gatekeepers. This is something that people will have to understand. In my home, everything is gatekeeping, the scapegoating woman, which looks to read, good chance to watch. The brother is always constantly watching the sister, what she will read, who is she talking to. So, they will try their best not to have this news percolate down to the masses. And secondly, the demonization will start. Okay, Islam Katrina, you know, and then the Khadid laws, the Sharia laws, they are very pachyder. Nobody wants to go deeper into it, because again, it's a taboo area. Again, Islam, Kashmir, Khadir, you know, blasphemy to make it right. So, all of these things, this is what Muslim culture is being like. When you say that the Muslim women do not avail, it's true. The Khad cannot remember unless you go to court, but even stepping out, you know, for my mother to step out of the marriage, to even raise her voice among her own family members was a big hassle. Because the first thing it was that she is bringing disorder to her family. So, you know, how do you go across that barrier? Yeah, I think this is not dissimilar to what Hindu women were in in the 60s, 70s, 80s, that kind of thing. You know, I had covered this in a earlier podcast, I'd done with social on the hijab issue, but before 57, when the Hindu court bill was enacted, right, the Hindu court act and became so, you know, all of the Hindu laws were reformed. You had a prevalent judgment, which had essentially been passed in the context of Bhigami by Hindu men, and it being permitted under personal law and therefore being allowed, right. And that judgment is the one that took the field for the longest possible time holding the view, that personal laws cannot be tested on the anvil of fundamental rights, because the idea of personal laws, they are a completely separate source of body of law. They are not amenable to the same logical consistency that the fundamental rights demand. And based on that, a lot of rubbish under personal law has been protected, a lot of rights, which was etc have been protected. And the impression I think perhaps is that because that is the case, therefore, Sharia now applies, Sharia still applies, and Muslim women have never been made aware in the same way. When it came to dowry deaths, for example, or it came to a proud bride burning, or it came to the concept of cruelty, there was a huge information campaign led by activists and the government to get to reach out to Hindu women. I suspect the other thing is this, and this may be, you know, I'm guessing I haven't seen the stats, but I think Hindu women are more in the workplace and are more out of the house, and so therefore are more aware and their movements are less tracked. So they have more of an interface with all of the arms of the law that will assist them. For example, the police, the courts, and any other NGO or body that will assist them in taking these. I guess Nick is back. Yeah, I guess Nick is back. You have to keep in mind that Islam doesn't believe in Hindu Jew rights. The Muslim culture is not about the Hinduism rights. There are group rights, and the dominant group is the male clergy. So even if you have a judgment, which is saying that the individual rights of the Muslim women really appear, it's all about the grouping. You know, because divorce in itself is bringing this on, the man can divorce and will. If a woman does that, it's cruel, she has that right, but then, you know, she doesn't get him a hair or not. She's supposed to force people back. So you have to understand, if the Muslim women are not wailing all these laws and all, there are lots of barriers that she has to cross. The Hindu women, as you write this, there are more in the workplace, you know, they send and they discuss and they're more exposed, and then they have a knight in men around them. A Muslim woman has to struggle to come out of the house to work first of all, and then if she grows and sits in the workplace surrounded by those Muslim men, of Muslim women who are conditioned in those articles, and they will not be taking advice from, you know, non-Muslim men. So that would all make it very, very different. It makes it very different. That's the reality of Muslim women. No, but what are the tangible steps? Because, you know, Nikki was talking about Reformation, and Muslim Reformation is very tough, because you know, this blasphemy thing is brought into it. And a second wave of people or to non-muslims, it may seem like no, it's not such a beginning, but it's a very big, or it's very big. It's a very dangerous thing. It's fitting. Yeah, go ahead. No, so at the end of the day, what it seems to me, Nikhil, as this is like, I'm still not able to understand what are the legal hurdles in this? The legal hurdle, Pushal, frankly, is singular. How do you, if a person doesn't get to court, how is the court supposed to do anything? You see, what I'm trying to point out, Pushal, is today in 2024, you're celebrating the judgment, and let's speak historically, everybody was celebrating it, as if they did not know at all, that 125 applied in addition to the 1986 act. They thought this is the first time the Supreme Court has basically happened, Travana. Not realizing this has been done not once but five, six times through the 2000s. This bit of the judgment literally is that the court both judges, just as Massey as well as, just as Nagarathna, are essentially reproducing old judgments to say, to say, look, this is what was happening, that all these judgments have come in the past, likely, all these judgments have come in the past, and they are crystal clear on the point that 125 cannot be taken away from Muslim members. So this existed, right? So I am talking about a state of affairs, but 23 years later, we are so unaware that we are celebrating it like what occurred in 2021, as occurred in 2024, but one, two, that is because not enough orders are coming through. Because I'm talking about four, five, six orders that most that I've seen for a 20 year period was you go to a Maela court in relation to Hindu women, you see, a hundred order a day in any other major trial courts, easily. So that's an access point, right? I think what Ashir has she's written in on the head that today is supposing I have to start an NGO, right? That says, I'm going to set it up to grant access to Muslim women to their rights in court. She's absolutely right. If I'm a Muslim, I'll be caught in a costume, I'll be caught in. She'll be beaten by her father first. Yes, she'll be beaten by her brother, she'll be beaten by the husband as well, and the in-laws are perfectly in the support husband because she's bringing dishonor to the family. But I'm going to invert this a little bit. We've been through this as Hindus in the 60s and 70s, 60s, 70s, 80s, we've been there. There is no other way you have to go through it a hard route, but you have to go through it, because when you come out on the other side, it things change altogether. First look, imagine the sliding scale. Look, Ashir will get this, you will also get this in a in a heartbeat. Today, if the Muslim personal law board and persons of similar mind, let go of the concept of either in the way in which they act was trying to enforce, and the completely different way in which the Supreme Court interprets it. If they let it go, the problem for them is they have to let literally everything start sliding away, because the sanctity of the word of God as it were starts slipping away. So they can't make concessions, they absolutely can't make concessions. See, they are very clear on the fact this rigidity is the religion itself. Without absolute this rigidity, there is nothing else left there. And then imagine the power structure that goes away. You look at section 4 today, section 4 of that act says you can go to the wax board for maintenance. What for tomorrow will go to the government or to anybody else and say, look, we need more land, we need more property because we got this many women to take care of. You don't even need like, they can easily scam this and say over this many women, that many women require this and that whatever. And therefore, we are valid and we are an important institution and we must be given more property. If you take start taking this power the way from the wax board, right? So it's an insidious design. You have enforced the privilege of the wax board by an act to a very celebratory provision that you will take care of, desitute, divorce, use limit. All of this infrastructure starts falling apart for sure once these orders start getting passed saying, forget section 3, what you're giving under section 3, does not cover the life, does not cover enough maintenance, I'm passing a separate order over and above section 3. Architecturally for the, for the protectors of the faith, this is like taking a wrecking ball. They are not going to let go of that power. They are going to do that because say for Muslim culture, the marriage, the dignity of a woman, both themselves hanging here, you know, look at the argument coming from the Muslim personal board. They are saying, if she is leading, why should the man support? So would your family come, right? Well, can do women have family values, family commenting, arguing, you know. She's leaning, she's leaning the house, why should I maintain up her life? That's the argument coming. A woman as a person is not even taken into consideration, forget the fact that the woman like Shamanu spent a lifetime review, she's given you five children, forget the fact. So who are healing? Look at the debates on the theory which are coming. They can't even communicate only who disrespectfully panel panelists are back today because for that, it's inconceivable to think she is a person with rights. That is not it. And forget the elite Muslim intelligence here, how they debate and other. And talking about masses, this hasn't percolated down. And this was up to the imams, this was up to the Molanas. The dignity of a woman had to be taught. They haven't, and hence you see this argument coming from the Muslim person on board. You know, why she's leading, why should we, why should the man maintain? Yeah. I have a follow-up question. Okay, mess. Now, Joe, problems head that these are there. I mean, lo and go, Baralaga, this is just third worldism. I mean, I don't know how else to say this is third worldism at its best. But I just recently saw an ad. I don't know if you saw an Nike ad of Saudi Arabia of young Muslim girls. It was a wonderful ad by the way, super creative, beautiful ad. Oh, your mothership change over here. Let's talk about this, Arshia, because what I have noticed is whatever happens in Saudi Arabia, I mean, you and I were also talking about it in Chennai a few months ago, that whatever happens in Saudi Arabia, I was getting downstream effects. So, I think it's a very important thing to say. I think it's a very important thing to say, but I think it's a very important thing to say. I think it's a very important thing to say. I think it's a very important thing to say. I think it's a very important thing to say. I think it's a very important thing to say, but I think it's a very important thing to say. Remember, remember, there's such an anti-terrorism. He's been preparing. He's not Muslim enough now. If you see the TV tunnel debates also, the Mullanas and everybody are pronouncing as not Muslim enough. Although, he's a tough girl, he's in the head again, because what she's driving towards is, this time you're going to get no downstream effect, because this side is going to turn around and say, this was not a Muslim man at all, if he was behaving in this man. I mean, 10 years ago, they've had interpreted Sharia, harvest interpretation wasky. They cannot drive cars. And the Mullanas actually were going on YouTube and saying, because they're, you know, Italy, for sexual arousal and ovaries. I got it a lot of it. 10 years later, now the interpretation is key. She cannot, she doesn't need an spot. You know, Meramkiko sort of thing here. She can drive. They can have concerts. They are having beauty contests. And as we said, the ad is coming up. Though I'm still skeptical of the changes coming there, but anyway, he's taken a step. She can't be reviewed. But here, Indians are continent-wide, right, from the bucconies, the Braille-based, Alleged Muslim University, elite Muslim intelligence here, are agenda activists, are journalists, politicians. They are all going to say, and they are saying it, he's not Muslim enough. So, takfirism up there, start phobia. So, correct them. Because, you know, if Berkeley again, that is a bad idea. You're not even, you know, ready to accept a man who's a custodian of two holy cities, as you know, a person able to reform. You don't want to have that reform. You don't want to relinquish that power. Do they realize how many atheists are, because of these reasons, how many atheists are coming out in the Muslim community? Like, I keep saying this, it is because another thing I want to add, they don't know how many atheists exist in the Sikh community, by the way, because of the same behavioral pattern. I said, "Pagapan, you know, it's not even a bad idea, it's not a bad idea, it's not a bad idea, it's a bad idea." When will religious nut jobs realize that when you behave like this in the modern world, you only create atheists? I mean, thank you. I admire the logic you're coming up with, my friend, but it's not a high enough numbers. They are very clear that their fold is growing faster than the fold that you are talking about, much faster. How about a reproduction rate guy you should have, what do I accept, kurtow? Any reproduction rate, I'm thinking, rigidity, I just want to add two points to everything you guys have said, right? Like, one of the hilarious anecdotes that I saw on Twitter the other day, I don't know how accurate it is, I saw it in a screenshot. It's supposed to be the story of a 10th century man who comes from Andalus, and goes to Baghdad, and he's a very rigid Muslim, because the idea is the mothership actually evolves faster and moves towards modernity in questions itself, because it is not insecure about its questions, it's not insecure in asking, because they are the keepers of the faith, as it were, right? The more distant you get from it, your entire test in life is the rigidity by which you are there to what you have been told, right? Otherwise, you are not pure enough, that's the problem. So, he, the anecdote goes that he gave to Baghdad, and he saw, he's got a term for scientific concepts and modernity, right? Whereas, in Andalus, that would be completely horrific to even try it. The other thing I want to come at, Pishal, is this, look, this is, you know, what we're discussing now is the DNA of communities. After 57, then 2005, there is nothing Hindu left in any law which is called Hindu innings. Hindu marijuana, Hindu matter in any other than the fact that you can follow your customs to the ceremony of the marriage, right? There is no concept of divorce, and Hindu, sorry you have a concept of divorce, the divorce provisions are literally now today in line with this, with the special marriage act, there is no gap there. Your maintenance provisions are getting to those levels, maintenance amounts being given by what's advancing, compensation orders under domestic violence that I can show you, compensation orders in Calcutt, in Bombay High Court, etc, got as high as three crores, four crores as a compensation for domestic violence, right? You ended, you criminalized for a 15 year period with sheer brutality, Hindu families were so much, so as a whisper of an allegation of cruelty or bright burning was made, they were arrested en masse, husband, father, father, father, mother, daughter, and all of that, they put up a dirty jail, they said, until in 2009, the courts started step back and say, we can't have a mandatory procedure with mobile, that's becoming too much, it's too much abuse of the process, but you literally went through all of that and yet there was not enough of a backlash from the community, because the community overall in its DNA understands, this is progressivism, you have to get there, not enough of us are doing it, right? And so we have to get there, and so we will accept it, we will make it, we will make it second, second strength to us, we will deal with it, right? We want that modernity, if you don't have that desire or that modernity, what can any law do here, what are you going to do beyond upon? For us, conversely what happens, you said that, you know, the Hindu response will be followed in the Hindu marriage, if we progress the Muslims, you can go for the special marriage, that it is not considered a marriage, it's rejected, even if it's a Muslim marrying a Muslim under the special marriage, so you know, and what we talked about atheism, it's not like they haven't realized that it's, you know, what it is about, Islamists have become very clear, what they are doing now is they are commissioning these progressive Muslim writers, who, they can't go the second one, they can't progress the same sentiment, temperament, what it's about, but you know, they are in their own way, starting to deal with this rising non-belief, because I believe the explicit moment is growing the law, so these are the laws, they are growing, growing at the rate of knots, trust me, it is, but I have a question, this is where articles that say Sharia is feminist, that hijab is progressive, that it is hitting the more liberal position, I mean, just shit, that makes me want to take a pistol and fire at my brain, don't, because either I am an idiot and I haven't understood the world, or what the hell is going on? Like, I mean, Qatar exactly, I mean, this judgment gets passed, did any of our liberal luminaries who comment scream at anything that Modi does? I have a question, Arshia, Arshia, Nam Legebucharong, Ghar, Rana, you, Arfak, Anum, Sharmani, or Jitinebi, Mahantam, Javedaktar, Faranaktar, Javedaktar will do it. I think that's why I'm here. I think that's why I'm here. I think, the token in our tweet about the Ayahuwah, and we haven't checked. I don't follow them, so I have no idea. Arfa Rana, you have to take it. Arfa Kanun Sharwani has also moved in. Her rosékne as a kamye kartiratiu. For them, it's okay. The BJP is using it against the Muslims. It's like a danda against the Muslims. That is what the whole rhetoric is. When you work on a word, radio, merci meotiti abid vai merati o konevos. Simon. Simon. They are one blocked me. So, you know, I have no way of knowing what they are tweeting about. But, you know, Nikhil is right. Nikhil, for a very progressive reform, even if the state stands behind us, the Islamists find a way. They will find a way. Because the power, they will not relinquish it. You are right in saying, a step away, a step away, it opens the gate to so much, so much freedom. And that the Muslim culture, they will never allow. How did we overcome this? This was overcome in the Hindu community. While literally taking the latin of the police and putting it into your home. There was no other way. No, no. The Christian community is a father. It's a revolution of the human of Kushav's favourite phrases. Jyaptal Hindu community have proper chitrolin in bhansitina. Taptal gubin is narmimalatir. But bhansithi, or Ihbajabh bhansit rasudhar bhajal dhyayatat. Because what happens is the acceptance of the better idea is ingrained into your theosophy, right? You are designed to be able to evolve and accept the better idea. These rigidity and Islamists are holding on to, they don't allow the community because I look, we all work with hundreds of Muslims in our lives. They are the very smart people. They can see it. They can't see it. The mind washing is too sajalic. What are your trolls on Twitter? They are totally minor. This is all rubbish. They are not minor. Nobody is minor. They get it. They see it. They can't do a thing about it. Not without facing community consequences. They are too heavy. In their private spaces, their extremely progressive, extremely liberal. They will not show it to you outside. But everybody is waiting. Boke radio, geke radio, yag, yag. Unless there are some bans, this is kibono system. This is why the state needs to come. This is why the state needs to come. This is why the state needs to come. This is why the state needs to come. This is why the state needs to come. This is why the state needs to come. This is why the state needs to come. 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