The Cārvāka Podcast

Legal Hindu Defence

In this podcast, Kushal speaks with Shehzad Poonawalla, the Bharatiya Janata Party's national spokesperson, about a new volunteer-driven legal group called "Legal Hindu Defence." This group will assist in filing cases when it identifies Hindu hate and fake news and will also defend what it calls "nationalists" when cases are filed against them.

Follow Shehzad: Twitter: @Shehzad_Ind YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ShehzadKiBaat Twitter: @legalhindudef

#bjp #shehzadpoonawalla #hinduphobia #ajeetbharti

Listen to the podcasts on: SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/kushal-mehra-99891819 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1rVcDV3upgVurMVW1wwoBp Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-c%C4%81rv%C4%81ka-podcast/id1445348369 Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-carvaka-podcast

Support The Cārvāka Podcast: Buy Kushal's Book: https://amzn.in/d/58cY4dU Become a Member on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKPx... Become a Member on Fanmo: https://fanmo.in/the_carvaka_podcast Become a Member on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/carvaka UPI: kushalmehra@icici To buy The Carvaka Podcast Exclusive Merch please visit: http://kushalmehra.com/shop

Follow Kushal: Twitter: https://twitter.com/kushal_mehra?ref_... Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KushalMehraO... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thecarvakap... Koo: https://www.kooapp.com/profile/kushal... Inquiries: https://kushalmehra.com/ Feedback: kushalmehra81@gmail.com

Duration:: 56m
Broadcast on:: 26 Jun 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

So, a few days ago, the Nacen spokesperson of the Parthysanta party had tweeted out something about a particular organization or a volunteer movement that is called Hindu legal defense. And this was announced almost parallel to the FIR lodged against Ajit Bharati by the government of Karnataka. So, I reached out to Shahzad, I told him why don't you come on the podcast and talk about it. So, Shahzad was nice enough to agree. Shahzad, how are you doing? Thank you, thank you very much Khashal, I am doing great, I hope everything is good with you and thank you for giving us this platform because you know you are by millions of people and therefore, I think it is a great platform to get our work out with the entire ecosystem and the entire support system. So, thank you for having us. All right, great, but Shahzad, so even I am like actually curious to understand what is the reason behind it, how are you guys as an organization or as a group of volunteers intending to go about doing this. I even have some doubts that I wanted to clarify about certain aspects of it, so why don't you give us an extra, I know we are only going to speak for like an hour, but so, but I want to make sure that you speak more in an hour and explain everything and then I can maybe in the second half ask a few follow-up questions, so take your time and explain the entire logic and rationale behind this. Well, actually the idea is pretty simple, this legal history defense is basically a volunteer movement that we are trying to create, it's predicated on the idea that we are not going to rest and sit on you know our back side thinking that somebody else should come and do this work or somebody else come and do this, we have to organize and assemble and mobilize ourselves for three issues, the three issues being one, if there is a fake narrative or if there is an exaggerated action, two, the action on it means that you go and find or take legal action or you take some kind of logical conclusion on that particular case and three, if there is any nationalist or if there is an insanatory, if there is any Hindu who seem rounded because the Congress, especially the Congress on the sequel still in real time, the moment they have got just about 99 feet, they have become brazen, brazen to the cause that they are now unleashing what I would say, emergency, style, anything attitude towards anybody who has a different policy, whether it's a deep policy, whether it's respecting facts and for nothing, a deep policy there is nothing wrong, you just quoted or paraphrased Acharya Promote Krishna, repeating facts made a very innocuous perhaps a sarcastic diet and he didn't say anything directly and much worse has been done by people on their side, but yet they are hounding people on this side of the argument which do not agree with that and therefore the idea of all sides rather is this way for you know somebody else to come and take up Kajal, we need to do it ourselves, unfortunately what has happened is that the last few days or last few weeks you notice Kajal, that people have become very negative, people have become very cynical, all they are doing is pontificate, lecture, finger points, now that's then required, nobody is doubting that there are some errors or some weaknesses or some lack in aid that needs to be pointed out, but look at the other side, the other side never spend so much time pontificating in the principle about their own, they invest in mobilizing assembling even for the worst of open systems, I mean somebody chance in the bar, their ecosystem is busy making it natural to the bar, and on the other side what you see is that those who you expect that you know in this point of time you should stand up together, stand together, they are busy in trying to show the oil and the weaknesses here rather than counter that take narrative on the other side, and therefore one thought that let's mobilize positive-minded people, and therefore link them into defense came up, and basically what we are asking people to do is that if you are a lawyer or if you are a social media or a media activist, or if you have a voice which is loud and prominent then come join this group, there are three or four ways you can on social media, obviously on Twitter, you get into defense, it's obviously N, A, L, H, N, U, D, E, F, it's on the, under my name, or you can have the WhatsApp contact which is 70422 055 W, you can leave a message there, we have a volunteer form which is on the Twitter handle, it's pinned on the top of the Twitter handle, we have an Instagram account also at the same name, so come join all of these platforms, all you can send in email as well, you can use defense@mail.com, become part of it, either you can be a part of amplifying our side of things or our version of things, either you can be a ambassador to us, take narratives by pushing the truth across, or you can be somebody who is standing vigil against fake news or infiltrated and pointed out to us, and then obviously if you are a legal volunteer or a legal resource, then you can help us find the cases or take action on social media platforms, so these are the ways you can participate in this, and you've got to prevent the response so far, and if I can just take about 10 or 20 seconds more, in the last one week that we started our operations at start, we have actually done three legal tutorials, so these legal tutorials are basically on how you can find cases against fake news, how you can take up, cut yourself for yourself and count of fake news and hate speech on social media platforms, so we actually explain people to people, you don't need to be a fully trained lawyer or a person who has a law degree to file a complaint or a case, so we explain people that, then in the case of Adidwarsi or the existing fact, we've actually been able to mobilize actual legal resources to help them out in their time of crisis, we will able to but take news and couple of instances including the ILC2 instance, we will be able to file complaints and cases on couple of mods and you know ANTI is to do narratives that they were putting, one of them being the nalandha kind, if you know the nalandha word by gram, right, you've taken that after social media platforms, taken that up in the form of police complaints, we've also got one of these very rabid ILC2 supporters, we asked to Khushwa to delete his suite and we've got our FIR files against him and if you remember there was one girl doing yoga and culture in Goldenville temple, now that has attracted a lot of hatred against Hindus in general and one of the depictions was that the girl was shown on a scheduling in a very peaceful, dirty, disgusting manner, so the handle that actually gets actually able to get that handle with help, obviously the handle that's operated from abroad, so he wasn't able to pursue legal action, but at least he got the handle with help in here, so we are trying to organize more people and what we need at this point of time is more committed lawyers who can actually find the cases or depend on people if they are in requirements of legal help, we need more lawyers to join us, so if any lawyer, any person who has some legal knowledge of listening to this, we would definitely want them to fit the form or to send us a WhatsApp message or email or contact us on Twitter or on Instagram and join, so this is basically the longest part of this, thank you for giving me this long period from now, we need this explanation because I have a few follow up questions, now I was very clear, the day you announced it I said I will donate to it, now somebody might come back to me and say what Qushal, you oppose many such laws and Shahzah, then his team are going to use such laws, so I will donate to causes where people are victims of those laws and I will not donate to causes where you guys are going to use the law, I have been very clear, I am opposed to 295A, 153A, 124, I have opposed to all such laws because I believe there are authoritarian laws, but we do need to find cases under 124, that's the definition and using all of that, so we will file cases for fake news or we may file case for hate speech or the same meaning or a missing commentary against you, but you may have a view on which you come to. No, no, defamation, in fact, I support civil defamation, I don't like the idea of criminal defamation in India, Shahzah, because I think it's very dangerous and but some fundamental questions I had, Shahzah, you know, when I said I will support you, I will support you, I mean, we don't know, you know me now, I will stand up with you and I am with you and you won't believe which Shahzah, that's a Charsal Pelle, I was with a few friends in our ecosystem and I had said that the biggest problem with our community is that we are not litages and I say this, this is a global Hindu community problem and a global Indian community problem over here, as I chat with you sitting here in Canada, I know it for a fact that the Islamists in UK, Canada, America, they are some of the most litigious people I've come across in my life, they will sue the pants out of you and they will not stop till you give a clarification or an apology, so I am actually very grateful that you have decided to initiate defamation and fake news as a part of this initiative, so I want to first applaud you for it, because that is where most of the damage is done, in the last week itself we have seen Atal Sethuwala incident, I mean, there has to be some cause or you know the mid-day case, right, for mid-day case, OTP guy, but or did you notice the news of the OTP comes on the front and the clarification is like a chin-toose paragraph in the small end, now how do we, so my natural question is Shazad, how do we increase the cost of lying in this system, like how do we go about it, because [unintelligible] In fact, you missed out on lying, missed out on the lying they are now pushing or tightening on I/O, first on I/O there is a railway station and now about the Raman said it said, so those two new lies are also being federal as you see, the railway station live was obviously called out, we got to 24 to 10 units at three and obviously some people like Ajita Dhamma are crazy and shameless, but having said that, you know, you are right, you know, the problem is there is no cost, there is no cost for these people who have been abusing into religion or who have been spreading taking, let's go with the taking first, first of all, it's basically they get a free run and if at all, maximum pressure, so they come up with that kind of clarification and if you notice the entire ecosystem, so I do the lie across, so that OTT, Indian story, I mean it was that, dual state and I'm sorry, I'm not on social duty right now, so I'm using the first, it's absolute bullshit and everybody, including the top-notch guys of the Congress, you could settle this, knowing very well that there is no OTT required for an Indian machine, I mean, everybody knows that, but even the likes of, you know, Rajee, Saj Desai and all, they will put it very smartly, but they will end up finding the same take narratives, take view, Rianka, Saturuheji did it, these are empty, Rahul Gandhi did it and there is no cost attached to it, it is absolutely free run, on the other hand, if I'm the person on this side of the fence, there's anything which is new, I mean, if he just makes a comma or a full-stop mistake, he will be taken to cause, he will be taken to J, he will be made to pay a big price and the problem is then he will see that, is it worth it for me to kind of, you know, or be in this side or to say anything because the cost is so much, the mental stress is so much, he may, he may actually not see it in huge consequence, but that period of uncertainty, when you go to know the police going to come after you, somebody is going to announce you, that is so much, that drama, that it breaks the person down mentally and emotionally and there is no cost on the other side, and now I don't want to get into why there's no cost on the other side, perhaps, we are not as bad as we are portrayed to be a stater, the problem is that we don't go after you, and I can see the logic for that also because, you know, any people like you have a view that people should not be executed, they can be continued error, but in the name of this genuine error, people are just getting a little bit spreading any kind of security and policies, and therefore, a party or a government may not prosecute that, but certainly a volunteer movement or volunteer or organization to take the private in nature must have the right to take, take action as they feel fit as for the law, so therefore, the entire movement will be done by private into it, and they should be at least equipped, the people should know what tools they have, whether they want to use them or not, it's left to them, but they should know how to get a Twitter tweet down, they should know how to get a thing flagged on social media, they should know how to file a case, if they need a writing, they should know these things, if they want to use it, if they don't want to use it, they don't need it, it's not being done to own people, but there must be a fear or a realization on the other side, that if you start spreading so much taking you, there will be a cost attached, so essentially you want to reach out of play or reach a level, where there is a fear, that fear can be there, that if I am going to take something or I am going to write and make it like, then somebody is going to pursue this legally, we are all going to pursue it in an individual way, but pursuing it, you will take it by somebody earlier, so that's the thing that we are aiming for, and therefore, we are trying to inform people, create awareness also, but you are also trying to mobilize me for institutional mechanisms, there are institutional mechanisms, policies, CIB fact check is there, so CIB fact check has to get up and do the fact check immediately, or we can have various state governments, they have their own units, if those units are perhaps for whatever reason, it's not in their bandwidth, they have looked out at the, they have missed out of social way, they are forced by a person who is being taken at it, we will flag off to that, we will alert them, we will insist on that, but whatever is the legal action, you take it, so we are trying to even mobilize the institutional mechanism towards that, and this is the longest sort of it, so this is what we are aiming to, okay, but what about, so in my view the biggest problem is not just creating a litigious system, but also defence, the biggest problem for me is defence, where somebody is actually like what happened to Ajith is just one of the things, I mean this has been happening to people all the time since the last five years, and whenever Congress or its allies come into power, they start misusing these laws in a very robust way, in fact I mean I should not be saying this, but I am going to use that story years ago, Kushal Mehra was trending before this railway complaint, and that was when I had actually filed a complaint, you know which story I am talking about, when I have a report, I apologize to Thesin for it, I have officially apologized to your brother, but I know Thesin knows that, Thesin knows I apologize, I wanted to go after Vishal Dadlani to make a mockery of the system, and I would, Thesin, counter fire me, I guess, but the message I wanted to say, may actually I support that, look, can you get away by saying it about anybody else's profit, what would they react to, Thesin, what would they (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) - Like Mary, Mary, the strategic hope came. I'm glad people like you have taken it up, (speaking in foreign language) because now so many cases will be fired that eventually the left will be like cease fire and cease fire out. (speaking in foreign language) But it's very tragic. But yet defense key, I wanna spend some time on defending people. Listen, one of the biggest problems we have around sharing with you and through this platform also informing others. You know, these big YouTubers on the left, they have lawyers, like they have lawyers who support them, who advise them, who take every step to help them. And honestly, this so-called non-left ecosystem, man, Ajith is working independently, Kushal is working, and look, we are all very fiercely individualistic people. Like you and I also don't agree on everything, but you know, our heart beats for India. So we are together. I mean, you and I have so many differences of opinions also. Like even in this, we don't have a completely agreeing opinion, but I still wanted you to come here which because I want to support this idea. Eventually, we need to have some sort of a support system. And but the thing is, yeah, on the other side, Nashazar, I know you are here as an individual capacity, but I have to ask you a political question. - Wow. - On the other side now, the Congress now, the Congress supports all these people. They will give them lawyers, they will give them X, they will give them Y. Yeah, it's not easy to afford a good lawyer. Just, I'll give you an example. Even if I have an agreement, Nashazar, you know, you have robbed from a legal background, right? You are a basic agreement to a vet, and you will be a lawyer. You will be a lawyer. You will be a lawyer. You will be a lawyer. You will be a lawyer. You will be a lawyer. You will be a lawyer. You will be a lawyer. So, you know, that's obviously an area that has been lacking. Let me be honest and candid about it. On one side, the Congress ecosystem, first of all, they are a bunch of zombies. So, they basically agree or take by each other on every issue without being critical, because just like zombies, they don't have any differences in their... They don't have the nuances or scales of difference of opinions that we may have, which is a robot, more democratic, I would say, set up on this side, because you have a specific difference. You are extremely critical of digital. Many of it, many instances. And I may not agree with all the views that you or I see because others may share. So, this is the most teaching side, it's the most democratic side. But that doesn't mean that just because a G Sparky has been critical of digital, or just because Kushal and I don't share a view on a particular issue, that if tomorrow the Congress ecosystem, which I would say explain the next ecosystem, comes after you, that I should advocate my view. And let me tell you, I'm very proud of two or three things that I have taken place in the last one or two months. It started with more community that mobile had on. Yikumatri, if you see these guys right after Yikumatri, which really tonight actually, and Varys has also been very critical of many of Marasta BJP leaders. But despite that, we were able to mobilize Marasta BJP, then we were able to mobilize the Karnataka BJP because they were eventually taken to Karnataka. And Chajaspi Furia has been a very, very big support in this last few few cases. He mobilized his legal team. In fact, if you go and see Varysmaic Prithar Andal, he has described in detail, even close, he did not have, that was also provided to him by Karnataka BJP. So everything was taken care of by Karnataka BJP. Then the second case was a G Sparky state, and a G Sparky state because I don't usually like to talk about it, but Arun Shah, was a very big lawyer that Karnataka, and he was a, I don't care generalizing during the last BJP government. He was very kind, and he was very jealous in stepping up and arguing the matter for a G. And there was obviously another lawyer, felt full, that he was coordinated by his team again. And they too got relief for a G till 19th of July, there was no cultural action. In the case of the fitting facts, the fitting facts also in Telen Nana, Telen Nana BJP, we can tell Regi, he got, I think, one lawyer called Karn center, quite senior guy, successful Telen Nana High Court. So he had appeared for the fitting facts. And we intend to do that. Look, as an individual of the BJP, I love my party a lot. I know my party, many people made the second, even on the outside, with a lot of things with my party, which I'm okay with. But one thing I know for practice is that, there are more good people who are always willing to support in my party. So even if they have small differences, they will give you all the A or D or D. If I call them after practice, up to four, and I tell them, listen, well, he may have said this or this, but now is the time to fix fine. I think out of 10 people, nine people will say, hello, mother's call, let's say, massacre different parts with it. I think it comes from the sun culture also, which is basically stand by your people. Problem, little problem is only this, that's right. Now what happens is that, backlogs do and have, we are not understanding that the Islamists are trying to divide us. And therefore, they are trying to isolate and go after people. And they're sick. If you see the sick of people like Zubair and all of this from a slobby, is that they all isolate one guy. So they fix energy, because they know, as it has very critical of these people. (speaking in foreign language) As it is a well-known phase, brand, whatever. (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) So they were trying to do that, and they are also identifying and putting on data, some individuals, so that they can send that message. But I think we, I mean, to be fair to BJP, they have more than stood up on the occasion of Ajitha R.C. And when it's like, and I think they'll continue to do that. I think there's more, there's an understanding in the top levels of BJP also that we have to stand by people. So I don't see any reason why they won't continue to do that. - No, in fact, for the record, Ajitha, Ajitha R.C., (speaking in foreign language) (laughing) (speaking in foreign language) (laughing) - Ah, that's true, that's true. And he has been so critical, but, but Kiki, you know what? (speaking in foreign language) Because it keeps us as we. (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) So let him do his work. But my limited point is something larger, my limited point is, and I am upset with one thing that I will tell the equal to, although I'm a late interest in this question, about this, I am, or actually speaking a norm beginning to defend the better Muslim. But I have one very big force of it. Hindus are not remaining united. And this, the Hindu community has to speak. Up, so too, as a Hindu, why are you getting divided by these bunch of people who have not got any interest of yours in their house? This Rahul Gandhi is a realist. He wants to destroy the entire country, who should destroy the entire society. He's creating caste divisions. They've taken Stanford Road up back. The same Stanford Road up, who divided us on color and skin. They've taken them back, they're for brazen. Imagine Stanford Road up, who were so revised as a caste country was against him. (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) But why should we now, why should we be feeling the same? We should be together united. And we should now, and united not get divided by this Congress and this Islamist province. They're trying to divide us, isolate us and target us. So Hindus have to particularly think that, see if somebody will say (speaking in foreign language) I see all the, (speaking in foreign language) Modi is the, (speaking in foreign language) I mean, you are able to stay all this today, because there is a Modi and a BJP graph. I am nobody to say this. You can have your view, you are right, I think you are wrong. But please tell me, did you think of (speaking in foreign language) Do you think of Ramallah (speaking in foreign language) Did you think of all these things that have happened from (speaking in foreign language) Did you think of all these things that have happened from khaki to (speaking in foreign language) All these things, this is realistic thing, just because A or B point has not been done, you have started calling somebody (speaking in foreign language) you are cascading them, (speaking in foreign language) And what is your own contribution to this? At a time of the lead of (speaking in foreign language) So what is your contribution, except for deflating the (speaking in foreign language) What is your (speaking in foreign language) You are playing into the narrative of the other side. So this should be avoided. And they need to stop dividing themselves. And nobody to lecture or participate. People will castigate me, I know people will abuse me also. But if the one thing they can do, so I get legal into (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) And I completely agree with you, that the story of this election, I have always said that the story of this election was, especially in UP, the Samajwadi party, actually understood that when the candidate on the other side is a Muslim of the India Alliance, the Hindus don't vote for them. The moment they flip the candidate, the caste becomes a factor. And I hope the BJP learns that. And that is for the BJP to bother. But sticking to this subject. Now, listen, I understand, now one of my biggest grouses is that volunteer movements do not sustain themselves is because beyond a point, listen, (speaking in foreign language) So movements to become actually robust, rational, and poignant till the extent that they hurt people where it hurts the most, they need a funding pattern, they need like, I will be the first question, (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) Because, and my biggest problem is, again, you guys are looking at it from a volunteer perspective, and this is another criticism I'm saying. (speaking in foreign language) Regularly naked or BJP, (speaking in foreign language) You are a BJP spokesperson, but I want to create this feeling beyond the BJP. BJP is very important, and don't get me wrong. I am as much as a cog in the wheel, despite staying outside the party formally, as anybody else is in fact, (speaking in foreign language) So, (speaking in foreign language) I think you guys need to create a formal network. So, my humble suggestion to you, I don't know what your thoughts are on this. Why do you guys are right now focusing on just, it has to be validation. - I'll tell you why, I'll tell you why. First of all, this is not going to be the final outcome of this group. This is the starting point. Starting point, maybe this is my view, but this is, I mean, because somebody had to start something from this group here. I thought that starting state (speaking in foreign language) I'll tell you why. My, and I've spoken to Ajita about it, I've spoken to Ashok Shivasya, and I wanted to kind of over this weekend, talk to people like you and other people, and ask them to form basically like a 15 or 20 member custodian group. And once that custodian group is formed, who don't need to participate in the day-to-day activity, or the day-to-day activity, we can obviously have people who take care of, you know, the daily scanning the staff, getting the complaints by coordinating with the lawyers, et cetera. But this custodian group of 15, 20, 25 people, whatever it is, I wanted to basically build that custodian group and then, with their permission, with their cognizant, create a trust or a society or whatever it is, whatever it is, where very transparently, then we can open up for taking any kind of monetary support, because I completely agree with you, that you have pro boners other than we, et cetera. How about-- (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) So, I understand that, so we need to have that financial backing or that financial support to then pay the good lawyer's price of the cases or to take and pursue big matters. I completely agree with you, but the problem is also this, that I can take anything but not an allegation that I have taken one, two, three from anybody. (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) 15, 20, 25 people who are basically the top most, most prominent, most, I would say, revered voices. We will accumulate them, have a common meeting very soon, and devise a mechanism, Gobi mechanism will suggest carrying a trans society, Gobi corporate entity, whatever entity they suggest, we will create that, register it, and then we will probably, I mean, make it to a one transparent bank account, and then in that, it can come. So that these people know, (speaking in foreign language) and then they decide, (speaking in foreign language) So that has to be a cumulative decision. You understand what I'm saying? I don't want to, why decision? So therefore, I am waiting for that. But in the meanwhile, just because they're not taking funds, should we not do any work? So it's still a volunteer entity, (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) - I promise you about one thing. I promise you about one thing. If needed, (speaking in foreign language) I'll meet you personally. I want to take this, because I have been after this conceptually. I'm glad, but my problem was that, how many things do I take on? You know what all I do behind the scenes. So like, I was like, I can't take this on also. So if I have someone like you helping me out, and I spoke to Ajith, Ajith was like, (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) I can't deal with this. (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) You said that a volunteer movement can't just move like this, and it has to require, done so important, I agree with you. But you know, some of the best volunteer movements, and one of them is the RFS. And it's not necessarily always about money or resources. RFS, Karakarthas, RFS firms, they work having people in the worst of times in terms of not going when, you know, political power may come to their ideology or whatever. They have survived on their minimum or nothing, and have taken the message, are involved. And therefore today, what we need is digital power. We don't see money as, money is important. - I explain Kariyya. - But money is not the only. It is actually the sense of belonging and sense of unity. If you have these two, even if you don't have money, you can fight, but if you have all the money, but no sense of unity, a sense of belonging, then you can never fight. - Okay. - You have as much money as you want, but no sense of unity puts me over. (speaking in foreign language) Let's say I am a social media handle. I want to remain anonymous while I want to work for this, or I don't want to remain anonymous. I have my face openly on social media, and I want to help something like a legal hinder defense. So what are the prerequisite skillsets that I need to go about doing this work for this volunteer movement? - Okay. So let's assume clear forth and others. Supposing you are somebody who wants to stay in the background, you don't want to necessarily review yourself for the video identity for months, multiple weeks. If you have resources to donate, you are thinking about (speaking in foreign language) If you are part of the social person, you would definitely have some contact in your contact list. You can fight the cases to make your resourceful person. Then you get the lawyers and connect those lawyers to us. I am thinking about (speaking in foreign language) Legal Resource Organized Group, your organized somebody who is in your circle has a strong, prominent voice. If that voice is in the media or in the social media, all can influence 10 other more voices. All of those things help. So I am saying that it's not just about money, it's about if you have the network, if you have the resources in terms of legal or you know, being able to create amplification, then that also helps. Let's assume that you don't have any legal resource, but you have a strong voice on social media in whatever you say goes viral or you can make a video. Even if it's not going viral, you are in the position that you could communicate with. Communicate career video by now, (speaking in foreign language) So everyone can consider whether you have a resource or you don't have a resource, you can use your networks, you can use your personal ability to deliver a message. You can just write or you can just create awareness and most importantly, everyone must have the recognition that you need to say United. The most important thing is also that (speaking in foreign language) Now, one more clarification that I wanted to understand was okay, I know you've explained beautifully the volunteer aspect of it. Now, you might say you may not have thought of this, but give me a couple of minutes to explain why I think eventually a movement like this cannot be stuck just at the level of India and the geography of India. And let me explain this. Mary life make unique perspective because of my personal family issues, because of some family members following ill in Canada. I had to partially move to Canada two, three years ago. So, I traveled the globe. I mean, I go to United Kingdom, America, Canada. I travel all over the place. I meet the Hindu diaspora Shetat. They are really scared. Eventually, this idea of defending good, well-meaning people has to extend, in my opinion, we will start in India, but we have to take it outside India also Because yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, no, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes attacks on the Hindu community increased during the Modi regime outside India. Because they're like, this is a bargaining chip if we attack Hindus outside India, right? We can bargain with the Modi government in India. See, these are all interconnected things. So eventually my request to you, I'm not saying don't start with that motto, but keep in mind that this movement now has to think beyond Hindus in India. You have to think about Hindus outside India. And when I say Hindus, you know what I'm meaning. I'm saying Hindus colloquially because Seja for me, you are also a Hindu. You are not a Muslim for me. I think you are a Hindu. Anybody who's pro decency and pro India has to be supported whether inside and outside. I don't know what your views are, but my request to you is keep this in mind also, please. - I actually first of all do is not in the limited sense of just one Kuja person. Hindu is in the largest sense of a particular way of life. And therefore it encapsulates everybody who believes in Indian or Bharati a way of life. So the term is actually wider, but obviously you have to use something that connects with people and therefore it's legal in Hindu descent. So you're right, and it's not restricted to one geography of India. It has to go global. It has to actually see the challenges of Hindu community across, there is confusion, you're right, the attack, availability, but there is a sense of fear amongst people even abroad. And we need to kind of figure out how we can even provide defense or how we can provide some kind of safety net for Hindus across the world. So eventually I hope this platform or any platform grows to that extent that the Hindu feels that they've got mad back. These people have got mad back. So I completely agree with you. I mean, I have no difference of point of view except that I am this kind of skeptical that at this point of time it is better to take baby steps and start small. - 100% agree. - For something too big and then you know, it never happens and then people are waiting for each to fail, right? Then they relish in failures of others. So rather they give them that opportunity. Start small, start humbly for zero, zero characteristic, but definitely you must advocate for causes that go beyond the controversy of India because the attack on the Hindu is not India. It's not just in India. It is across the world and it is for a lot of reasons which you articulated and many more reasons which perhaps you don't want to articulate here. But I think there has to be some platform, some group, some kick in it. And whatever that platform is, if it's the Hindu defense, then it's obeyed. But it should have that global impact as such. One, I completely agree. We should be in a position to lobby hard like many Islamist groups lobby with governments and then safeguard their people there. It must be in that position to be able to negotiate with various governments or organizations there so that people know that people, the issue there is not isolated or left to zone device. That's when the outcome of. I know you have to leave in 15 minutes, which questions live your skill. Somebody has asked is there any plan to take publications to court on defamation, fake news? I believe we need, this is a wonderful question is because it explains in a beautiful example that was in the West. So, best man, I, but a famous quesuata, it was Hulk Hogan versus Gawker media. And basically, as a Gawker had leaked some of Hulk Hogan's things and then Peter Thiel, the billionaire basically said, "I will take this quesuata." He sued the pants out of Gawker and Gawker shut down. - It's interesting, it's interesting. Obviously, in America, I mean, this is an American case. So, the laws are much stricter there and they think that we've seen India, the experience has been that they've been left off too easily. But if, I mean, this is something you don't like criminal definition, it's not all or things having a criminal democratic question. But it's not through them monetizing, but there must be some, therefore question legally for that. And perhaps one or two of these publications which are going over should be made an example. And therefore, we will need to get some good lawyers who can pursue that case legally criminally and take that, take forward and make an example of it. I am for it. People think I'm undemocratic, so be it. But I think that that needs to be done so that an example is set. Because there is right now very little sides that take for taking. So, I think that that price for taking use of price for defamation of price for doing this, that needs to be escalated and estimated to an extent that it becomes, what would it take? It should become that one should fear if I may say quickly request now. I am looking at the consequences. - So, somebody has said, first of all, he's congratulated you on this and he's exactly saying I'm willing to put my money as well as ready to contribute financially. Please initiate this. He's a person who lives in India. I know it for a fact. He's one of my members, actually. So, he's like, I'm willing to contribute financially. So, Shazad, many people have actually written over here that they are willing to contribute financially. And these are people who actually contribute financially to me. So. - I know. I am, but like I said, the only thing is that we are going to open up that window of financial support so that then we can organize more professional support and professional debt. But that has to be under the custodianship of more than this one, Shazad, you know. So, please understand that point of view from my, it can be the custodianship of one Shazad Unala because Shazad Unala's political first, from all of my politics to make me to do something else, the cause has to be bigger than an individual. So, if there are 15, 20, 25 people who have been here longer then, who are going to be here, are beyond politics and just for the cause of it. When they take over it and they are the custodians of it, then I think that should be totally open. We should open it up and then that the funds also come in and let professionally extend that support. - This is a very good question. - It's a matter of two months. - Will judicial reforms make all of this redundant? Are you worried about that? - No, I mean, give me an example, because when somebody is saying what does it mean? - Yeah, they just think, in our case, you know what, this is, they think the judiciary is biased. See, this is just fear mongering. I believe the Indian judiciary, Itini Vikharavani, and they were taking action when cases are done. They don't understand these things, it's okay. But, okay, one question was, what's your two to five year goal? Is there, because I believe actually short term long term goals are important? Is there a way to expedite this to set an example in time in hand? What does success look like here? Just cases or justice? Very good question. - So, I think the short term plan right now is to a, value up and mobilize people in one direction. That's a limited short term goal in the next two, three, three, four weeks, one month. Okay, bye, everyone gets united and stick together at me. Then the medium term goal would be to obviously identify a set of lawyers, whether pro bono or whether working at a small minimal speed, and create those legal networks in every zone, so north, south, east, west, or in say, every important capital, so that you have a set of lawyers that you can immediately die or contact if there is an issue for somebody, or if you want to pursue something, and then the long term goal becomes that all the custodians that I'm talking about, we all get together, we devise a boss, we will now go for this kind of funding, we will open it up, we will promote it on all of our platforms commonly, the funds will start coming in, and then we start analyzing those funds towards more intensive legal defense or legal action, and also in kind of putting together those resources to amplify more, to put more of our case for us, and not just in terms of, if you can hate speech, if you can't take speech. My point is, we must also be in a position where we are able to bargain with social media platforms in a strong way, because their algorithms are completely biased against us, so we need to mobilize that kind of resources in the long term, where our voices are not drowned out because the social media platforms are biased towards a certain ideal, so for that we need to galvanize enough strength, whether it's in terms of logging or whether it's in terms of financial reform, that's the long term goal, that nobody should be able to rip off the issue completely or our side of the narrative, just because the other side is able to get people embedded into those social media companies, if you understand what I'm saying. - Somebody has asked you, how will you ensure that legal Hindu defense doesn't atrophy as an organization? That's another concern. - Well, obviously that is something that can happen, so for that purpose, one needs to kind of bend the leadership at all levels, and therefore I think one of the editors that when 20, 25 people like us get together, is to see that how we can create leadership, not just at our level, but little lower levels than us also, so that this can be taken up in a more intensive way, you might be doing your videos, I just did a video, I'm just doing my political work, doesn't mean that the organization should stop functioning. So we need to have some people who are there, professional, who get a family, who work on a family, that part needs to be taken care of, and then some people need to be motivated just by the visasar or the work, the ideology of it, and those people need to be put in position and you need to get that group going, so that they continue to take this out. I think this, I mean, obviously any group for any organization can go down, if it's not motivated enough to work, but I think if you create a right set of leadership, apart from just one or two people, then I think it will not be that, so as long as they are able to create the leadership, yeah, why not? There are people who are willing to volunteer, so we should identify them, you're helpful also to be required, identifying them and then taking it for them. Should not become a one-person organization. That's how it is, that's not basically just me. So basically, that should not be the way it still functions. - I will make sure it doesn't end up with you. The circuit is your part of the moment. - Yeah, because you know any cause, the worst thing is that, you know, that first night's eating, when it becomes attached to a cause, then the cause suffers. So it's better that now we take a idea, we take as we go, we take a start out here, for less actually democratize and get more people in, okay, and run it, because there might be people with better ideas in it. It's not that I'm the repository of all information and knowledge. So somebody may have a better idea of how to organize or how to take me forward, so they should also be able to kind of figure forward and come in and participate. - Okay, last question, because I know you have to go. What can people do about fake fact checkers? The Nupur Sharma case shows that the clip cutting has put her life permanently in danger. That doesn't even come under hate speech. So what do we do about that? - Well, you know, we need to kind of, need to kind of curve these people at the store system. So the idea is that why is this guy got such a three run? We are obviously talking about Dubai. Dubai has got a three run because we haven't been able to pin his, his activity is down at the moment at school. And therefore going forward, what we need to do is that people, when they are making certain mistakes, you need to pin them down on those mistakes and ensure that their reach and their amplification is curved at that point on. And rather than just reacting to everything they say, you need to be more strategic in our reaction. Right now what is happening is that these are something we react to it, then he goes and plays the victim and he gets more funds and he increases his amplification and he has political backing. Rather than that, we have to tackle it more strategically. And that strategic tackling obviously will require us to not make him a victim, but to actually cut him at the store that if he makes a blatant mistake and you don't need to put out things against Azidabad. Now that can incite people to even go and say physical action against Azidabad. So that becomes a legitimate case against persons. Then why aren't we filed a case that these actions can possibly lead to harm against Azidabad? So we need to file those cases and get them acted upon. So we need to file certain or find certain areas where he is made up which would stay and then take that further rather than just let him opto. These are far too long these lectures people opto and they are just politically, they are political jihadi. So they are basically just going there and trying to target our people. So we need to kind of tackle them is before they become stupid. Fair enough, Shahzad, I know you have to go. So and it's very late in India right now. I once again, thank you. Thank you for coming and spending some time chatting with everyone over here. I wish you all the best and I promise you, you have all my all my Tanman Tan to support you in this initiative. I will hopefully meet you when I'm back in India. Now in the next few days and we will take this forward. And once again, thanks a lot brother. So thank you so much once again and Kuchal I'd love it. If you could just send me to more names and and polls connected in this first round of meeting that we should have so that you can all brainstorm and then analyze the roadmap and then take it further and see where it goes in the next six months. Madhili Araw, first week, July 1, Madhago Phone Karunga will sit down there in person and we'll take it from there. Madhago Appa in person. And thanks and until then, whoever wants to participate join obviously. You can see it with my name, the WhatsApp number is there, the Twitter ID is there. Instagram also if you just type in the same as which you'll find the Instagram ID also and you can email us at regarindudessent@gmail.com distance to the fee. So please do get it as such as us. And if you are a lawyer in particular, you can get it as such and provide us some legal help so that you can take more cases up. - All right, guys. - Thank you so much. - Hezad. - Thank you. - On Twitter, it is @legalhindudef. L H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H. The WhatsApp number is 7042205588. They also have the email ID. Go follow them on social media. And if you want to contribute or you have the intention of contributing, do drop in an email to them that you are ready to financially contribute to them. And if you can't do that, like Shezad said, if you can just, you know, volunteer for them. And volunteering also has to be effective. Ladies and gentlemen, so don't be an ineffective volunteer because then you volunteer, then you create more problems if you are ineffective. So if they have a training program, ask them to train you how to volunteer for these kinds of specific tasks. Train yourself and then become an even more effective volunteer. I will see you guys next time. This is a very important moment. I'll keep you guys updated about this as and when I speak, which has other about it. Everybody take care. Bye bye. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)