(upbeat music) - Hey everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you about the best place to listen to all your audio titles. You can't beat Audible. Audible ends you enjoy all of your audio entertainment. In one app, you'll always find the best of what you love or something new to discover they have at all. They offer an incredible selects across every genre from bestsellers, new releases, celebrity memoirs, mystery thrillers, motivation, wellness, business and more. If it's out there, they have it. I'm telling you, I spend so much time on Audible. I love these so much, so many titles for the show that we, all of our podcasts and everything else. It's just phenomenal for traveling, it's great. Audible is the destination for thrilling audio entertainment with highly anticipated new releases and next listen recommendations to habituate every type of thriller listener. You're gonna love it. Keep your heart rate up month after month with this pulse pounding collection. You can't hear anywhere else. Now the title I'm listening to right now that I'm having a lot of fun listening to is The Devil in the White City. It's by Eric Larsen, it's the story of HH Holmes all around the world's fair in Chicago and how he was able to get all this done 'cause there was so much stuff going on and it's really creepy and really great. Fantastic, fantastic listen. As an Audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from the entire catalog. You can have it, it's fantastic, including latest bestsellers and new releases. New members can try Audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com/smalltownmurder or text smalltownmurder to 500-500. That's audible.com/smalltownmurder or text smalltownmurder to 500-500. Now back to the show. Apple Card is the perfect cashback rewards credit card. Earn up to 3% daily cashback on every purchase every day. Then grow it at 4.50% annual percentage yield when you open a savings account with Apple Card. Visit apple.co/cardcalculator to see how much you can earn. Apple Card's subject to credit approval, savings available to Apple Card owners subject eligibility. Savings accounts provided by Goldman Sachs Bank USA member FDIC terms apply. VR training platforms like the one developed by Fundamental VR and Orbis International are helping surgeons train over and over before operating on real patients. As you practice each skill, the muscle memory starts to develop. Learn more at meta.com/metiverseimpact. This week in Amity, Maine, when the absolute slaughter of three people is discovered in a blood smeared trailer, it leads to a clean cut suspect with seemingly no motive. But then things get really weird. Welcome to Small Town Murder. (upbeat music) - Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. - Yay! - Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrogallo, I'm here with my co-host. - I'm Jimmy Wissman. - Thank you folks so much for joining us today on a absolute crazy adventure here. - Let's do it again. - Wild story and a brutal case and a weird, just a weird dude responsible for it all. We'll talk about all of it. We will get into that. Before we do though, you need to head over to shutupandgivememurder.com. - What is that? - Well, first of all, merch is there, tons of merch. But tickets to live shows, a place to wear the merch and take your whatever you do there. Well, live shows throughout the year here. We already, a couple are sold out. So get your tickets right now. Minneapolis, you can be our biggest show ever. - I've heard tell. - That's right. You can beat Chicago and be our biggest show ever and we'll be proud to tell everyone. Minneapolis is our biggest show ever, if you guys sell us out. And these shows are going fast. Boston and New York and December are going fast and almost gone, so get your tickets now for wherever you wanna go. Thank you, we have Sacramento, April 5th and San Francisco, April 6th. You're up first, you're on deck. - Gonna be great, yeah. - Let's do it, so come out and see us and if you can't make it to a live show, you can make it to a virtual live show. - Oh, you bet. - 'Cause it doesn't matter wherever you are in the world, you can make it to a virtual live show. If you have an internet connection, you are there. And just like a regular live show, but we're bringing it to you in your living room or your back porch or wherever the hell you wanna listen to the show. So and watch the show, you'll see all the visuals. The 420 virtual live show is for sale right now. So get that, we can't wait, April the 20th. We're excited, we're gonna have costumes, all sorts of different smoking apparatus to scare the shit out of Jimmy. It's gonna be good stuff. Shut up and givememurder.com is where you get it all, patreon.com/crimeinsports is where you get all of your bonus materials, $5 a month or above. A mere cup of coffee will get you so affordable. We will overflow your coffee cup with content and you'll get a couple hundred back episodes running over right away in the new episodes every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder, and you get it all this week, which you're gonna get for crime in sports. You don't have to like sports or anything else. - No. - It's gonna be personal ads where we read how you used to. How did you find love in 1988 in the newspaper? That's how you put an ad out for yourself. And they are hilarious. And we're gonna talk all about those and read tons of them. Those are so much fun back by popular demand. Then for small town murder, very weird tale of the Collier brothers, a pair of very strange brothers who turned into recluses in their brownstone apartment in New York City, and eventually in the city, walls had to be cut out to remove them. And the hoarding that went on in there was wild and it's crazy. We'll talk all about that. patreon.com/crimeinsports is where you get all that. And you get a shout out at the end of the show. Jimmy will mispronounce your name. Quickly, the disclaimer, it's a comedy show, everybody. - It is. - We're comedians. The story is unfortunately all too real. It's very, very real. So nothing's made up for comic effect or any of that. You don't have to with these stories. They're crazy enough. Well, the jokes though, for us, I feel like it softens it a little bit in terms of-- - It's easier. - Yeah, it just, you know, it makes it a little lighter around the edges. There's nothing funny about a murder, but there's a shit load of funny things that go on around a murder of, I think I can get away with this. No, you can't. - No, you can't. - Probably not, especially if you're an idiot and you're on this show. So we'll talk all about that. But what we won't do, we'll go out of our way not to do is we won't make fun of the victims or the victims' family. - Oh, why James? - Because we're assholes. - Yeah, but-- - But we're not scumbags. That's how that works. So if that sounds good to you, we have a crazy show for you. If not, if you think true crime and comedy never ever ever go together, maybe you won't like the show. I don't know. - I don't know. - But anyway, you've been warned. So you're in on it too. No bitching later. That said, I think it's time everybody to sit back. - Sure. - Arms to the sky. What do you say? That's all take a deep breath. And let's all shout. - Shout out. - Shout out. - Shout out. - And give me. - Let's do this. - Okay. - Let me say everybody. - Feels good, yeah. - Let's go on a trip, Jimmy. Let's go here. We're going on up to a place we like very much. - Yeah, yeah. - We're going to Maine this week. - It's terrific. - Ah, it's beautiful up there. It's nice. They got the ocean. - How far north are we? - This is north to where it's not ocean Maine, Canada's on the other side of it. - Uh oh. - And it's east too. It's very east. It's one of the farthest east places you could get in the United States. So it's in like Northern Maine on the eastern side of it. - That's it. - On that tip up there. It's Amity Maine. It's called, instead of Amityville, this is just Amity. It's about two hours to Bangor. So that's-- - It's a while. - It's a while, it's way up there. This place, about four hours down to Portland, Maine, which is down by Massachusetts. And then four hours also to Scarborough, Maine, episode 418, our last Maine episode, "The Stranger and the Psycho Path," which was a good episode. - They're oftentimes the same. - The Maine ones are always just a touch, just a touch of Stephen King to them. There's always something-- - I mean, it did birth them, yeah. - Yeah, there's always, you wonder why all, he's setting all these stories in Maine. And then-- - Why is he such a crate? - Yeah. - Then he go, no, I think it's Maine, I think is the issue here. It's awesome. Yeah, he was just absorbing what was going on around him, because this state, whenever we do it, it's always just a little creepy for some reason, a little weird, a little off, a little something. - It seems like the ocean is like inviting until you get that far north, and then it'll fucking kill you. - Yeah, it's beautiful though, it's great. I love it. - I like that, yeah. It's in a roostook county, I guess, or eight. Well, I'm just gonna spell it, A-R-O-O-S-T-O-O-K. So, a roostook, it has to be. Or I'm saying it wrong, and I'm sure that-- - Roostook. - The good people of Maine will hit me up on social media, correct me. Yeah, go ahead, knock yourselves out. I don't care anymore, I'm taking it, you know what? I used to say, shut up about, now I'm like, you know what, tell me how you say it, I don't even care. - I don't care anymore. - I don't give a fuck. Tell me, I'm at James Petrigal, how do you say it? I don't care, tell me how you say it, don't care. - A real Phil Collins approach to this. - Don't give a shit, yeah. - I don't care anymore, I don't care what you say. - I don't care. - I don't care anymore. - Let it fly. - That's the song that's gonna be our lead-in on the road this year. - That is, that's exactly what it's gonna be. I'm telling you, it'll be that before-- - I don't care anymore. - Before no woman, no cry, it's gonna be that. - I don't care anymore. We're gonna hear, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. - If you're sitting in your seat wondering, when does this show start? If you hear Phil Collins say, I don't care anymore. - It's us. - We'll be out. - It's almost out. - It's about seven minutes. (laughing) We got that and something like that. - Here it comes. - Yep, I don't care anymore, 'cause I don't tell you. Just give me whatever your weird local pronunciation, the next count, I don't care. Okay, I don't care. - I don't care anymore. - Anyway, so area code 207, motto here is, "Amity matters because friends and neighbors matter." - Yeah. - Okay, that's a nice one. - Do they though? - Yeah, it's a long-winded motto also. It's hard to put that on the sign. - Probably trim that down. - Can't put that on a flag really, probably. So history of this town was first settled in 1826 and incorporated in 1836 from a township that was originally called T10 R1-W-E-L-S. So that's-- - Yeah, and that's not like a license plate that they put those numbers in there to make a word. This is just-- - And they're spaces, T10, space, R1, space, W-E-L-S, all caps, I don't know, it doesn't roll off the tongue. - No, it's gotta be a map coordinates of some sort, like a rainy and townships, it's gotta be. - Or some sort of whatever military quadrants they put things into, who knows. So some people said the town was named for the 1794 Treaty of Amity, Commerce, and Navigation between England and the United States, which aimed to end the boundary dispute between Maine and New Brunswick, which is Canada up there. - Right, right. - So yeah, and then in 18-- - There's a boundary dispute. - Yeah, so all up there, Vermont, there was wars and Vermont on the border. Yeah, New Hampshire, there's a lot of little skirmishes. - Canada wanted it all? - Well, there's people that had, this is my land, oh no, well, this is not even your land, 'cause it's not your country, so then they would fight and then more people would come to help one side and the other will turn and will fight. In 1839, after these so-called, and they say, I say so-called because they say so-called, 'cause that's just kind of the name they call it, and also I'm sure I'm mispronouncing it, so so-called a roostook war ended with the signing of a treaty that gave Maine this town, 'cause this is right on the border of Canada this town. I mean, yeah, you walk east fucking five miles in here in Canada in this town. - Wow. - It's there, they gave Maine the town and the ownership had been disputed, so surveyors placed a monument in monument brook right on the border, so there's monument one and monument two, and that's the borders. - Okay, okay. - We know where we are. The most people that this town has ever had in its history was in 1880. - The most. - Since then, it went down a lot. Yeah, in 1880, they had 432 people. - That's the most ever? - That's the most they've ever had in this town, and then it was- - That's great. - And it got down at one point, 1970, they had 156 people, that's their low. - Holy shit. - That I can see, so yeah, it got there. Reviews of this town, there are no reviews of this town. Not zero, reviews, it's very small, but I did find a review of the county. Here is an Arusto County review, it's a three-star review, so not really telling us much. They say the town I live in is very small and everyone knows each other, and outsiders are kind of left out. We are on the border of Canada, and the university is two towns over, and has brought many diverse cultures together, I am happy to live here to earn my degree. There's no punctuation, so I think they need to go back to class. - In high school, you didn't beat that yet. - Yeah, and then I have a couple reviews of Monument. This is Monument 1 here. - That's what it looks like. - It's just a tall metal thing. - It's kind of like a Washington Monument, almost, like a monolith. - Yeah, but small. It says boundary on August 9th, 1842 on it. And here's a review, one says five stars, remote place to visit, interesting piece of history, visit during dry weather and wear high rubber boots if you want any chance to walk out to it. Access can be gained from the Canadian side by going out the Monument Road and using a GPS to navigate through logging roads. That sounds so popular. - During the dry weather, bring the lashes. - Even though, yeah, go during the dry season and prepare for mud, that's a weird thing to say. - Prepare for the wettest shit you've ever seen. - Holy shit, and then somebody gives it one star and says, quote, it's not Canadian, one star. So, that's so weird. - They wanted it to be, I don't know. I was hoping that it would just have, you know, Mario Lemieux standing next to him. I don't even know if he's Canadian, but I just assume so. 'Cause he's a great hockey player. - Sounds French Canadian, probably, yeah. - Yeah, it's totally Montreal or Quebec or some shit there. So, yeah, those are the reviews. One other person says five stars. It was a once-in-a-lifetime experience. As in, I'm not walking through the woods again to get there. - That's what I'm never doing that again. - Not happening ever again. Listen to your stupid opinions, by the way, in your other show, because you get a lot of this kind of stuff there. - It sounds like they don't, there aren't reviews for this, 'cause if somebody has a review, they just tell the people they know who live there, right? - They just tell the other-- - Guys right there, I'll just tell them. - The population here, 217. So, you just tell the other 216 people-- - I'll tell 'em. - I'll run into 'em. - I like it. - At some point, what you saw and how bad it was. - Why am I gonna tell somebody in Kansas what sucks around here? I'll just tell the guy that's in charge of it, and maybe we can all come together and fix it. - Maybe we can fix it, what do you say? - So, there's 53% male here, 47% female, which is way off, it's usually a few more females. So, I don't get that. Median age here is, this is some Pepper's Farm Remembers people over here. Yeah, 55.2 is the average, that's your median age. - The average age is a retirement community. - 55.2, yeah, it's normally 37 in the rest of the country. - Wow. - It's, you know, that's a lot of porch whittling up there. - Yeah, sure enough. - 64% of the people are married. There's not a, there isn't even reviews of this town. There's not exactly a boom in single scene where you're gonna go out and pick up chicks. A lot of people divorced here higher than the average. It's usually about 20% here, it's 34%. 25% are single with children. So, they're either married or have kids. One of them, they're more both. Race of this town, 84.8% white, 3.4% black, which is honestly more black people than I'd imagine would be out way out there in the rural main town. 0.0% Asian, 0.0% Hispanic, and 12% say two or more races. So, who knows? - Oh, okay. - Religion, 46% little below the average and the highest percentage of anybody obviously around here are the Catholics because as we know, Catholics are what, Jimmy? - The Baptists of that North. - The Baptists of the North, that's exactly right. So, 0.0% Jewish as well. The unemployment rate here, think about the unemployment rate in the United States as we speak is 3.6%, which is an insanely low number and it has been for a long time. It's been, you know, for years and years now. It's been pretty damn low. The unemployment rate in Amity is 14.8%. - What, really? - Yeah, there's just not a lot up there. There's not a lot of jobs to be had. - Is that people that are of working age? - Well, yeah, that's how it counts. - Sounds like nobody has any jobs. - That's a lot of what it sounds like. Sounds like a lot of people on social security and there aren't a lot of jobs to be had, I don't think up there. The median household income here, okay. Rest of the country, $69,021. Here it is, $28,594. So that is quite low. So it's not easy to make money here. - It's interesting how you can make it here though, because this place is just, I wouldn't even call it affordable. It's downright cheap. - Well, that's the thing here. And the cost of living, 100 is average, here it's 75. But that's the low thing here is the home cost. Median home cost here, $96,900. - Isn't that insane? - That's insane. Not a lot available though. And we'll tell you what is available if you have to find out here. We have the Amity main real estate report, average two bedroom rental here. I don't know if there's any rentals available 'cause there's very little available to buy is $790, so it's cheap. - That seems high still, right? - It seems like it. Here's one in Linneus. This is a nearby bordering town here. They're all little towns, so they're not a lot of area. This is a no bedroom, no bath. - Studio? - 288 square foot. - What? - It's on 11 acres. - Oh. - It's a shack. - It's a fucking Ted Kaczynski Unabomber shack. It's a place. - How do you square feet? - 288. - Okay. - It's a tiny house. - It's a tiny shack. - It's a tiny, like 20. - It's a tiny little place. - It's a tiny shack where you can write your manifesto. Like I feel like this is a manifesto shack, really, for you people out there looking the right one. - A small, tiny home. - It is definitely a shack. Next there's Halton, this is in Halton, which is also close here. This is a four bedroom, two bath, 2,640 square feet. - Wow. - Not a lot of land, a small lot, but it's a nice big old white house. It looks like a nice New England house. Very nice, it's from the 1840s, it was built. It's got a big nice front porch. The kitchen looks very 1960s. Like it needs a fucking half century update here. - At least a visit to Lowe's. - Yeah, could use a freshening up here, but still not bad for 219,900 bucks. - Almost 3,000 square feet of four bedrooms, two bath. That's nice. - Fuck yeah, now the next house is awesome. It's just awesome, it's in-amity. It's the only one for sale in-amity. Five bedroom, one bath, which is weird. I'm assuming probably one and a half, one full, and then one regular. - There's gotta be somewhere to wash your hands, yeah. - Yeah, it's a 3,500 square foot regular house. It's on 20 acres. - Holy shit. - It's this, it's a decent house. It's an old farmhouse with a red metal roof on top. So it's decent, but the inside is nice. A lot of hard wood, a lot of good stuff. Looks like it was put together. But beside all of that, there's shops and other out building. - Yes, sir. - One is a shop that sold grow supplies for weed. - What? - And then another one is a fucking grow house. And they have like a storefront in the supply thing with like bongs and shit. - Yeah, this is Northern Maine at its finest. - They have pictures of the weed drying. Like, look what you can grow here. And it tells you like they get this many pounds per month. I think it's 20 pounds a month out of this fucking place and all this type of shit. It's awesome. It's a combination compound grow house. - Grow house. - 950 grand. - Oh my God, that's incredible. - 20 acres, it's fucking wild. I'm like, if you don't hear from me for a while. (laughing) - This is why, I love it up there. - Somebody gave me a mortgage and I'm on it. So that's what happened. Oh shit, things to do in this town. The Harvest Festival, number one. This is in Halton by the way, nearby. And says, "Celebrate our farmers and the harvest of Maine." Yay, they all harvest. - Well, they have all sorts of stuff here. They have bountiful farmers and their market, the bountiful farmers and their harvest in our area, old fashioned games. I don't know what the fuck that says stuff. - Ball in a cup? - Beat the nearest child. I feel like, beat the nearest child. I don't know what it is. Great food and samples, bust line market. What's a bust line market? - Bust line? - Did they misspell bustling and say bust line? - Gotta be. - To dare to be. Did their autocorrect do that and they've never fixed it. - Confusing people and now people are up there like, where's the tent market? Where's my, I don't see no bust lines here at all. Y'all told me there's gonna be titties. - Not a single titty. - Not, the Halton potato feast days. That's another thing to do, that sounds great. - All the different ways you can have 'em? I'm in. - Tots, mash, whatever. - I like all forms of potato. So it's a family fun filled event. Is sure to please our community with a craft and art fair, potato bar, lobster dinner, doll parade. What the fuck is that? - Don't like that. - That sounds like the creepiest thing I've ever heard of. A silent parade of marching dolls is terrifying to me. - And you better specify what dolls are permitted 'cause somebody's bringing a fuck doll. - A life size one for, they just got from Japan for like eight grand. - Yeah, one of those, in a wheelchair or something. - Yeah. - I love up one, somebody just tucks under their arm. - Well, one of the real good ones though, is that Jennifer Lopez in the phone? Oh no, that's a fuck doll, nevermind. - It's a ice-blinkin' shit. - Oh yeah, also a touch of truck. It's mouth is just trying to grasp for something. Try his suction on something. - A sucky woosh. - Yeah, it's always trying to grab onto something. - Or a fish mouth. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's also a touch of truck, which does kids can go. - I like that. - Yeah, it's cool. - Yeah, cool truck, cool shit. Go see the front end loader, fuck it. - People like shit, like kids love that shit. The lobster dinner. You can either take it home or eat it in the park. Okay. - I'll be going home. - August 18th at 5 p.m. is the doll parade and wagon wranglers. - I don't know. - I don't understand any of those words and why they're in the same sentence together. You could say wagon parade with doll wranglers and I'd say great, that sound makes just as much sense, right? - Yeah, those words could go anyway. - Anyway, you want, and then there's a candy drop that'll follow from there. - Okay. - So they describe it as approximately 3,000 people will show up for this event, featuring all this shit. - You're getting everybody in town and 2,700 from more surrounding areas from where? - I have no idea where they're from Canada. They're coming over the border and hoards. - Is this a big deal? - Speaking French, a pie and ice cream social live music, which they don't really tell you who's going to be playing the nostalgic doll and wagon wrangler parade. - There it is. - Creepy again. And the big touch of truck and candy drop, they go on to say the doll parade is historic. - Is it? - It's been going on since the 1940s. They decorate their doll carriages or wagons. - Doll cake. - They wheel dolls around. This is so creepy. - Still doesn't make any goddamn sense. - It's creepier now. That's even creepier now. I don't like this at all. - I want this lobster fest feast though. It's 1.25 pound whole lobster, corn and baked potato. - There's a place in Phoenix that just opened called, I don't know, somebody's lobster. And it's like lobster sandwiches and stuff. And the price, they don't have any prices on the menu because they change all the time because of the price of main lobster. It's fucking awesome. And it's a little drive-through joint. I mean, some days you pay an absurd amount of money in a drive-through, especially in a desert 3,000 miles away from where it came from. - 30 people just spent $42 in the drive-through. I'm just shaking my head, like, how the fuck are we gonna? - Well, here you can get a two lobster feast thing. Like me and you wanted to go for $35. We could both eat lobsters. - That's better than the lobster role place. - Yeah. - 'Cause it comes from, they just drive it there. - And it's right there. - They're not just hanging out of the way of that. - It doesn't need a plane ticket, they gotta pay for it. - They're like, Frank caught this earlier. - You want to eat it? No, yeah. Okay. - Sure do, yeah. - So that's how that goes. There's also a quilt show. So at during this, mix that in with the whole thing. Eat your lobster, stare at a quilt. Something to do, crime rate in this town. What we're interested in here. - Here we go. - How is it safe? What is it? Property crime is about 1/3 below the national average. So. - 1/3 below it should be what third of? - You'd think it'd be more. Well, violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course, assault, the Mount Rushmore of crime is 1/3 of the national average. So 2/3 low. 'Cause I mean, there's so few people you should know who did anything. - Right, yeah. - So speaking of that, let's talk about some horrific murder that happened here. - Oh boy. - Not just a murder. This is one of the worst and I believe it was called by the judge at the time, the worst massacre in the history of Maine. So. - History of Maine. - History of the state of Maine, including all of Stephen King's shit. So think about that. (laughing) He was inspired. - He was than thinner. - He was inspired for decades of murders. 'Cause this happened in 2010. So he decades, he was inspired of lesser murders. - You're worse than Pennywise. - Yeah. Oh, this is fucking horrible. This is horrible. - Oh boy. - Let's talk about, let's talk about some people first off. We're gonna start out, just jump right into 2010. So not very long ago. - Oh boy. - I mean, smartphones and a year before, we're talking about everything. - A year before Instagram. So. - Right. - The book is happening and taking pictures on your phone and texting and all that shit. So just to give you an idea of where we're at here. Let's talk about Jeffrey Ryan. And Jeff, he goes by Jeff Ryan. He's 55 in 2010. - Okay, yeah. - He's lived in the Amity area for about 12 years. He served in the Vietnam War. - At a point. - And he's a disabled veteran at this point. He's got some physical problems also. And he's 55 too. He's aging. - Yeah. - Now he has a prescription for drugs, for painkillers, for his injuries here. - Do we know what one's he's taking? - It's various. That's the thing. - Oh. - The stuff around anything around prescription drugs is gonna be very nebulous here. It's all a little mushy. - Okay. - Because it goes from people saying that he just takes the responsible medically prescribed amount of these, for his pain management, to people saying that he's a full-blown prescription drug addict and the, you know, always on pills and pilled out, to people saying that he sells pills. - Oh. - He's either. - That's a vast category. - So yeah, he either just takes a couple when his pain really acts up or he's just distributing them to the entire fucking Canadian border area. Yeah, one or the other. Slinging them like main lobsters all around this bitch. - We're not sure, so that's how it goes. Now, his ex-wife, we'll talk about here, he was married. He's been married twice, actually. Got kids from both marriages. - Sure, yeah. - His ex-wife of the most recent marriage, her name is Jamie Merrill. And they got a divorce in about 2007. And it was based on, according to the documents, irreconcilable differences. Yeah, they've been married since '98. They have one son named Jesse. He was born in 2000, he's 10 years old in 2010. - In 2000, a Vietnam vet is having children? - Yeah, yeah, well, he was at that time, 45. - It's 50, right? - It was 45, that's all so bad. - Yeah, so, yeah, he had a new marriage and all that. This was his second family, basically. This was his start over family. And so they got divorced, like I said, they'd been married since September 1998. According to the divorce records here, it showed that they share custody of their son, but that Jesse had presided primarily with his father in a trailer in Amity. (upbeat music) Hey everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show and tell you about a wonderful company that does fabulous things for your skin, Curology. - Oh, curology.com, see you at OLOGY.com. - Absolutely, and Curology, this is what makes them awesome and different. 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That's better H-E-L-P, betterhelp.com/smalltownmurder. Now back to the show. - Okay. - Okay, now this is what Jamie Merrill says. This is just her, you know, talking. She says she left Ryan after seven years of marriage. She said she sought refuge from his abuse and a string of shelters for battered women before settling into another town in New Hampshire about three years before this. - Oh, wait. - So that's her story. And she says that he's a drug addict and sells prescription drugs and has a lot of enemies. - Okay. - Oh, and he's got enemies. - No, this is great. - 'Cause he sells drugs. So he's got enemies and a lot of people don't like him and he's fucking people over. Well, if he's, you know, beating her into battered women's shelters, you can't tell me all the rest of his dealings with people are wonderful. - I'm sure he's a very shrewd businessman. - Yeah, that's what I mean. Like I'm sure he's probably a not very popular guy. - Not a part. - No, that's just according to her. Now they have, like I said, a son named Jesse who's 10. So Jeff is the father, Jesse, the son. Now Jeff also has another ex-wife. - Right. - From before that, they have a 16 year old daughter. - Okay. - And that woman, his ex-wife, her name is Tamara Strout. S-T-R-O-U-T, like Trout with an S, he's Strout. Now, like I said, so they've been divorced and they have a 16 year old daughter, but recently in the last year or so from 2009-ish, they have started speaking again. Jeff and Tamara have rekindled their romance. - Yeah. - And in 2010, he apparently proposed to her again. - Get him back with Tammy. - To get remapped. Imagine if you're a kid and your parents get divorced when they're little and then you're 16 and they're gonna get remarried. - And you got another brother, huh? - Yeah. Is that like, is this finally coming true or is that like, you fucking assholes couldn't have worked this out throughout my entire childhood? Thanks a lot. - Now you're coming back now that I'm super fucked up over this. - Thanks. Now something else to talk to my therapist about, great. Thanks a lot. - You're not gonna believe this. Now he walked out, he's back. - He's back. We're all back now. Now, according to his second ex-wife, Jamie Merrill, not the one he's hooking back up with, Jamie says that he has been threatened, Jeff has, by quote, "quite a few people over the years." - Sure. - Due to his behavior and drug-beeling ways. - Sure, yeah. - So as of 2010, he lives in a mobile home on Route 1. - Well, that's very close. - Yeah, it's not great, but that's not wonderful. He has a best friend too that lives down the road named Jason Dahan. - D-E-H. - Down Route 1? - Down Route 1. Down, down old Route 1 there. He lives down the route is what he lives, not down the road. - Couple mile markers down is where he's at. - There's a monument, there's a big monument for it. Don't worry about it, they erected it. - Get your GPS out. - Get your Galoshes and your GPS and you should be able to find Old Jason's house, no problem. This is a place where, when you ask for directions, there's a lot of like where the old barn used to be and shit like that. Make a left where, you know, where-- - He lives down the route. - Yeah, he lives down the route, right down the route. - Ah! - Oh man, Jason Dahan is D-E-H-A-H-N. He's 30, so he's 25 years younger than Jeff, but they're best friends apparently. - Not a lot of people around, I feel like. - Yeah, but also it's usually substances that bring those people together. - Subs, I was gonna say, yeah, that long of distance. - Or substance or interests, one way or another to an interest. - That's the thing, they both like beer, they both like to drink beer, they both like to hang out. I mean, if you got nobody around and you might just go, I don't care how old he is, he drinks beer and watches football. - You legal to drink? - Come on over. - We'll watch that. Also then, like you said, drugs bring different groups of people to hang out at the same place. I've seen very different people hanging out together doing drugs. - Why are you with the, oh, that's why. - Oh, that's why. - There's always, like, there's pages you can follow that have like old Studio 54 pictures. Check out who's with who when you go, why would those two be together? - Oh yeah, that's right. - Okay. - That's the only fucking reason that these two people-- - Oh yeah, okay, it was huge. - Yeah, that's why. Now I get it, clearly. So Jason, people say that Jason visited Jeff pretty much every day. He'd come over and hang out at Jeff's trailer. I don't know why Jason's trailer wasn't the big hangout, but it's kinda how things go with people. Some people's houses are more accommodating. Now Jason, this is probably why the hanging out goes on over here because Jason has a wife and three kids. - Yeah, I don't wanna hang around them. - No, yeah, you come over here and just hang out with me and my 10-year-old and it's all good. So who knows? Now Jamie, the ex-wife, at this point, it's not like she's saying all these things about him, but it's not like she's trying to get back together with him or something like that. She has a fiancee and a six-month pregnant as well at this point. - Oh wow. - Yeah, the whole thing is-- - And elsewhere. - And elsewhere, she's with a new Hampshire. - Yeah, right. - Lewis to New Hampshire, so she's-- - Right, oh, she's way down there. - She's a while away anyway. - Yeah, for the white mountains, that's a nice area too, James. - Yeah, and up ahead. So Father's Day comes around 2010. And Jeff apparently, he was supposed to pick up Jesse and they were supposed to do some kind of trip, but then he called to say he would have to delay the trip and didn't explain why. But then he went and picked Jesse up anyway in Lewiston and to take him back to Amity for Father's Day, to spend the weekend together, and they were gonna go fishing and spend time together. - It's not towards the ship. - And it's late June, so school's over, this is gonna hang out at Dad's house and do some fishing and all that kind of shit. Now, he hadn't seen his son since the end of February. Yeah, Jesse, the son, had moved out of the Amity home and moved back into his mother's house. Then, before that, he was living with Jeff, the son was, Jesse. And then he moves out in February, moves back with his mom and Dad hasn't seen him in four months. So this is a big pickup here for Father's Day, you know. - Sure. - Yeah, here. Jesse just finished the fourth grade, so the school year just happened. And yeah, so that's how that goes. Jamie Merrill, now, after a few days, she's calling her son here and trying to get ahold of him. She talked to him on Tuesday night that week at about 8.30 PM. And then she tried him all day Wednesday, trying to call Jeff's phone to get ahold of Jesse, but it just rang and rang. So she thought, "Ah, maybe they're fishing." And, you know, who knows if the phone rings out by the lake or, you know, whatever. So she said it was weird, though, because she had talked to Jesse at least once every day, and he would also send her text messages. So now just communication cut off on this Wednesday. So she said, "Like, that's weird." And it's very strange. - He's going into fifth grade. He's turning into a real man now. - Yeah, it's the Wednesday after Father's Day. So he's, yeah, fifth grade. You don't talk to your mom anymore. - No. - Yeah, yeah. You tell her, "Just give me the meal "through a slot in the door and leave me alone." - Worry about yourself, bitch. - Yeah, that's it. Don't worry about what I'm doing in here. Got things going on. So no one can get ahold of them. And also, Jason DeHaan, the best friend who's over there all the time. - Down the road piece, yeah. - He doesn't come home one day either, and nobody can find him. So no one knows where anybody is here. These three that all hang out together. - All three of these just fucked off together. - Fucked off. - Just disappeared. - Somewhere. So Jason DeHaan's brother hears that he goes to Jeff Ryan's all the time. So he goes over to Jeff Ryan's house to try to find his brother. He goes there several times to try to locate Jason. And he never, nobody answers the door. Knocks on the door, there's no activity, there's no anything going on, no noises, nothing. So, he comes back, he goes once, he goes twice. On the third visit, he has a flashlight with him, and he shines it through the window into the trailer to see if he can see anything. What he sees is a gigantic fucking bloodbath worth of blood in there. - Oh no, in the house? - There's blood everywhere. That's what he can see with the flashlight. So, you're in, you know, dark it is up in Maine in this area. - Oh boy, it's dark. - There is in a city, Bangor's not a big city, and that's the closest big city. And that's two hours away. - Forget about if it's a new moon. If there's no moon, it's over for you. - Dark, I mean dark. So when you're coming up to this trailer with a flashlight, this is dark, and it's the wilderness. And you shine a flashlight through a dark window in a fucking woods trailer. And you see blood everywhere? You gotta get your pants, right? - Yeah, that's a lot of trout gods. - Yeah, right now there's somebody out there writing a screenplay, writing that down, going, "Oh, that's fucking good." - No, that's horrifying. - You can picture that scene, step by step, of how horrifying that is, a POV shot of the person. - Yeah, that blood doesn't even look like blood. It looks, it's black, it's so dark. - Yeah, just spread on the walls though, and everywhere else. He freaks out, runs away, and calls his father, who's also Jason's father, obviously, and says, "Jesus, fucking Christ, get down here. There's blood, I don't know what to do. What do I do?" - I don't know who it is, yeah. - Doesn't call 911, calls his father. - Calls his dad. - Calls his dad, which I don't know what you're thinking on that one. - Well, I guess that tells me it's so remote, dad's faster than the police. - Faster, yeah, but still, I wanna get that on record that I, you know, hey. - Get this started, yeah, that's what mine, I didn't do it. - Let's get this going. You call 911, then you call your dad. - Just wanna let you guys know, I didn't produce all this, there's a whole bunch of it, I'm gonna call my dad. - A lot of it. I'm gonna see what my dad has to say, goodbye. When your dad gets there, when you call your dad, he should hear sirens on your end of the phone as they come closer to your house. - Yeah, there should be a flicker of their lights off your house. - Do you think maybe he thought he was crazy for a second? Like maybe I need a second pair of eyes to-- - I'm not seeing this. - To verify this. - I read a lot of Stephen King, I'm not gonna believe in this. - It is Maine, creepy shit goes on, you know. I saw needful things, you never know, like it could be an old man behind this whole deal with a little shop and you never know, I'm just saying. - Yeah. - So they enter the residence, dad comes along, Robert de Han, he comes in, they enter the residence, they push the door open and get it open. - What? - To the trailer, 'cause they see all this blood, so they force their way into the trailer. - Why would they do that? - Why would you, that's what I'm saying. - Why would you put yourself into a bloodbath ever? - Well, number one, yeah, you look at that and you go, that could be a crime scene, A, and number two, when police investigate, they need to see what position doors were in, where this lock fucked with and tampered with, was the door-- - Fingerprints on things. - They just busted through the door now. - Yeah. - Now at the same time, if you think your relative might be in there injured in a need of attention, you might say, "I don't give a fuck, I'm busting in." See, we're thinking of it as, but it's been a couple of days and there's a bloodbath and it's all dark, I think the worst and call the cops. I wouldn't, I don't know, that's-- - I don't know how much blood you can lose, but I've seen how much comes out when you donate, it's not enough to show a bloodbath. You know what I mean? - You draw attention like that. - If there's like six, eight of those spread around, I'm not going in. - No. - There can't be many more left than somebody. - And we do this show, so that's the other thing. So we know, "Oh God, that's the other thing." I think if you're just living in a small town in Maine and you're like, "Where's my brother at?" and you look through and you're, "Holy shit, Jesus Christ." It might just be a different story, I don't know. Honestly, we don't even want to take a walk 'cause we're like, "There'll be a body, can't you walk?" We go for a walk there, we're just gonna find a body, it's gonna, the whole day's gonna be ruined now, so no. - You're not gonna believe this. - I had this old little dirt bike in my garage that I hadn't been using, so I listed it on Facebook Marketplace and I traded it for a Peloton, so I never have to go for a ride over again. - Good, there you go. - Because I don't want to find bodies. - That's a good idea. See, you're never gonna find bodies like we said. - Never. - Peloton. - Any liver. - You better use this, Peloton, and you better fucking give us credit and most of all, money for this idea, because this is a great idea. Obviously, maybe not for like national television, but for Nick's markets, Jesus Christ, Peloton. Guaranteed not to find a body, isn't it? Great, then, or you could put in the videos, a body that you find as you go down the road, and that makes it, you could have a whole, like, true crime. - Put that on my screen. - Yeah, like, mix it, like, team up with one of those hunt to killer, like, remember we did that, yang, and team up with that to have like a mystery then, there's an option, do you call the cops, do you keep on riding? - Is there more restraint, 'cause you've got a pedal faster to get away from this fucking scene? Do you unzip the duffle bag, yes or no? You know what I mean, shit like that, we can make it a make your own adventure Peloton. - I love it. - Jesus Christ. - It's the best idea we've ever been. - But I got one because I have a bike and I don't want to find a body. - No, you're smart. - I live in an area far enough away that I'll find a fucking body out there. - Find desert and there will be a body eventually, yeah. Can't help it. So they enter this residence now. - Yeah. - And they look around with a flashlight, there's nothing in the living room. They see blood everywhere and they don't see any people. - No source. - No source of this blood. So they investigate the rest of the trailer to trailer, so it's not that big to go down to a bedroom and they find a horrific discovery. They find the body of 10 year old Jesse. - Oh no. - Just bloody and clearly been through the ringer here. - Yeah, stab wounds and a lot of holes in them, put it that way and a lot of blood, a lot of blood everywhere. So at that point, they went, holy shit, ran out of the fucking house and called the cops, obviously. Oh my God, we found a child's body in here. - There's a mad man out there. - This is fucking crazy. Yeah, then they're scared too at that point too, because if someone would do this to a 10 year old, we got to get the fuck out of here. - We got zero chance. - Like a horror movie you're expecting to be looking at the body and then turn around and run and the guy standing in the hallway with an axe, you know what I mean? - I think, yeah. - That's how that works. So they also say that the police arrive and the father here, Robert Dahan, also says there's a Jeff's truck isn't here. Jeff's truck is missing. So his son is dead inside. - No, Jeff, no truck. - We haven't found our son, Jason, and we don't see Jeff's truck. So at that point, everyone's thinking did he kill his fucking kid and take off with his friend in the truck? - Right. - That's all they can imagine at this point. This truck is gone, they don't know. So it's a 1989 Ford F-150 is what's missing. - Oh yeah. - So they're, you know, freaking out, obviously, about everything. They do a search of the property and investigators look around. There's a small shed next to the trailer. And I have a picture of the whole trailer and everything next to it that I'll post on social media for you guys so you can see. So they are, they find the small trailer, a small shed next to the trailer and the investigators enter and they find Jeff Ryan dead in the small shed. - Oh no. - Similarly attacked lots of apparently stab wounds. - What the fuck, Don? - Dead in there. So yeah, now they'll like. - Jeff and Jesse, both dead. - Yeah, Jeff and Jesse, both dead father and son dead. - Jeff's truck gone. - 55 and 10 truck gone can't find Jason. So people are a little suspicious here of where the hell Jason is. They can't find Jason. So as they're spreading out from the house, they just, they're searching for evidence. They have these two bodies and they're searching for evidence. And as they do out in front of the house down the way a little bit in a ditch, they find Jason to hunt also dead. - What? - And he's even worse than the other two. He has been brutally stabbed everywhere and has had his throat, his head's nearly off basically. He's nearly been decapitated by having his throat cut to that extent. So. - This is a baffler. - This is a fucking, it's a mess. I mean, this is a blood bath butcher, the whole, everybody's been slaughtered. It's horrible and. - Anger with, with, with absolute malice. Just curious anger. Yeah. - And strength, these are growing men. I mean, we got a war veteran and a 30 year old guy in there, you know, to overpower them and to be able to almost take somebody's head off. - Right. - With a knife and a slashing motion. That's why they were saying that in the OJ trial that OJ is so goddamn strong and you'd have to be to almost sever Nicole Brown's head. It's the same thing. You have to be very strong. - And to be an enormous piece of shit willing to murder a 10 year old in that fashion. That's crazy. - A 10 year, 'cause what did the 10 year old do to you? - Right. I mean, is this blood loss? - Blood loss. - Dude, he had to come in. - Yeah. - What are we talking about? - What are we talking about? - Fucking beat you in a game of Madden. Like what, what could he have done? - Did he sing diarrhea too many times? - Soon, one too many times. I know, my pants are full of foam. - I don't know. - Yes, I drive a Chevy. Leave me alone. - Fuck, it's scary though. He's a 10 year old kid. He's an innocent kid. - It's horrific. - A 10 year old can't do enough to you to make you kill them. - Not like that. - Not like that. There's no, 'cause you can just take a 10 year old and physically just put them somewhere. - Right, you don't have to kill them. - Yeah, you just relocate them to a place you like better and tell them to stay there and make them. - Don't leave from here. They don't like you. - And then just tell them to do homework randomly and they'll have to do it. So, it's very good. - Right sentences. Here's the sentence. - There's the sentence. So this is a bloodbath like we said, and they're looking around trying to find any bit of evidence they can. It took an hour and a half before they found Jason Dajan out in the ditch by the way. So for an hour and a half, all the investigators are kind of looking like, I think we probably have our suspect already. Three people were here, now two of them are dead and the truck's gone. I don't know. - About the APB. - But they were like, why would he do that? He lives up the road and they're friends. So that wouldn't make any fucking sense. Up the route, sorry, and they're friends. So it didn't make a lot of sense. And the way his body was, it was just kind of like in the bushes near a ditch too. - Just kind of tossed. - Tossed or that's, they don't know. - Where he fell? - Yeah, they're trying to figure out the sequence of events and they're like, was he killed outside, out front? And then who was killed? - Then gave him in the shed and then, but why would you go inside it? - Yeah, right, yeah. - Yeah, it's really weird. So they said that all the chief medical examiner said all three died as a result of multiple sharp force injuries and Jason DeHaan is almost decapitated as well. - All knife play, oh Jesus. - So the theory of this, because they kind of go through the whole thing here. And they, the theory is they think that some, that Jeff Ryan obviously was outside, they're thinking maybe he was killed first because he was be the guy that anybody, because he's the resident. So you think if somebody wanted to kill him, that would be the, probably the first, he'd be the lightning rod of murder, probably in the house. - With him being the target, then you've accomplished it, now leave, but they went further on last, the target, then if witnesses also, if there's nobody in there, now we may ransack. - Exactly. - Exactly. - Take things, yeah. - Take things also. So they think that young Jesse and Jason DeHaan, Jesus, Jeff, Jason and Jesse is confusing. - Yeah, it's a lot of J's. - It's a lot of J's. So they think that Jason DeHaan, the friend, and young Jesse, the 10 year old, based on what's set up in the living room, they think they were inside playing video games. - Wow. - So Jason was playing video games with the kid when someone came in, that's what it looks like. And they think that they feel like, they, Jason DeHaan's blood is in the house too. - Okay. - And he's in a ditch dead, but there's blood in the house. So they think-- - There was an attack inside for sure. - They attacked him inside, they think. And then he tried to get away, obviously, and maybe he was tracked down outside. Or he was dragged out there. They don't really, they can't really tell, but there's no drags, but there are drops. As far as blood marks go, no blood drags, but there are blood drops. - He ran away, for sure. - He tried to run away. And then they think that the boy was chased into the back bedroom. He was a 10 year old, he stabbed in the back. - Ah, come on. - How dickless do you have to be to stab a 10 year old in the back? You know, the balls to face them? That's fucking disgusting. The boy, they said, was stabbed as he cowered in fear. - He fucking went to the group. - Yeah, he feed us up, and you jab him there, you fucking-- - Yeah, his body was on its hands and knees when it was discovered. - Oh, good grief. - It's fucking horrific, man. It's horrific. And by the way, these bodies have been here for longer than a day. When they find-- - Finally. - Yeah, in June, in a trailer. - Yikes. - So, this is horrifying. So they said that, yeah, Dahan must have managed to get outside where his head was nearly taken off, and he was stabbed countlessly in the back, just repeatedly, and his throat was slashed multiple times. The state medical examiner said that they'd all died of multiple stab wounds, and all of them appeared to be trying to elude the killer. - Really? - In certain, yeah, a lot of their wounds. Sometimes the first wound is in the back, and then the rest of them are trying to get away. Trying to fight. So this is a, when I say this, they said this is the worst mass murder in the history of Maine. - That's real. - This is fucking horrifying, an absolute horrifying mess. So, state police crime scene people, and they get canines in here and everything else, just scouring for any kind of evidence. They have a big tarp that covers up the door, and the evidence markers everywhere, and, you know, it goes from being this, and a peaceful trailer, and in the woods, to, you know, route one has happened now. - Yeah, you know. - Yeah, you know, there's an above-ground pool, and stuff like that, trying to make a go of it here. They talk about, they catalog that they have an ATV, and a bunch of like, you know, outdoor toys, stuff that they play with, and a kid has bicycles there, and he built them, the dad built them a tree house. - What? - He had a tree house and a bicycle, they had a trampoline and an eight tree house bicycle, trampoline, ATV. - Great dad. - That's fucking fun. - What a dad. - What a fun time. What 10-year-old would want to go there? I would. - Well, you get to go rip through the woods, and when I'm tired of that shit, I'll jump on the trampoline, and I'm asleep on this trampoline tonight. I don't give a shit. - Or up in my tree house. - Yeah. - Maybe I'll go sleep up there. - If it rains, I'll be in there. - Yeah, a bunch of toys. - This is great, yeah. - Above ground pool, you'll jump into, look at your hot from your trampoline. So they collect several pieces of evidence from a tan car owned by Jeff Ryan that's outside of the trailer, and several pieces they said from the driver's side floor. They got it. They also collect from the scene cigarette butts and beer bottles that they find around on the ground outside inside, and they take all of that in for DNA testing. - Oh, thank God for 2010. - Yeah, this is 2010, so this is, we're gonna get all this shit. So they get a DNA profile. They end up getting on a beer bottle. They get a full DNA profile on a beer bottle. - Whole thing. - Whole thing of an unknown male. He's not in the system. And a cigarette butt found at the home are this, go to the same unknown male. It's the same sequence. - He'll burn a drinker. - He's a smoker and a drinker, and he was there long enough to have a beer and a cigarette. - You bet, yep. - So that they know. So people, up and down the route, freak out like-- - How could you not? - I mean, there is fucking people just walking in circles, Peppertron remembers, Peppertron remembers, they don't know what to do with themselves. - Never gonna forget, this is too much. - No, they can't eat their lobster that night or so. - It's just gross. - They called it, from an article they say, "The killing shocked residents "of the quiet, wooded community." One of the closest neighbors to the mobile home, Dale Foley, who lives in the town of Orient, which is like a mile and a half away. And not Dave Dale. He said, he answered, they said they knocked on his door. The press went around trying to talk to neighbors. So they said, "Dale Foley who lives in Orient "about two miles away answered the door Thursday morning "with a shotgun in his hand." - What do you want? - What do you want? That's friendly. That's right, neighborly, huh? - That's a neighbor, yeah. - That'll make you go, "Oh, I better be brief "with my statement." I feel like. - Never mind? That's the answer, I think. I'll be leaving now. - Bob live here? No, okay, we're gonna leave now. I was looking for Bob. Wrong address. He said that he was answering the door with the weapon in his hand because of the killing. So this isn't just how they normally greet people at Maine. You know, hi. - He's just now. - This is. - He's just now racking a MOSPER. - Yeah, 'cause of the killing. You never know, y'all could be the murderers. I mean, it's one of those. - Hello, clack, clack. What? No, we're leaving. - They go out in the article to say, "After putting the gun down, he said that he gets good. "At least he didn't do the whole interview like that." He said his son rode the school bus with Jesse Ryan during the school year. And Foley said, "I was up until 2 a.m. "and never heard any noise. "Nothing like this ever happens here. "This is tragic." Another lady named Tara J, who lives just up the route from the family there. She said she didn't hear anything suspicious on Wednesday or Wednesday evening. She said she had seen the family before but didn't know them well. She said though, "Everyone I talked to "is really concerned and scared. "It's so shocking." So Jeff has an adult son, Jeff Ryan, who's 35 years old. So he's older than his guy he was hanging out with than the hon. - Right. - He lives in Texas, so he's not a part of this. But his name is Shannon Ryan and he lives in Texas. And they talk to him. And his evaluation is several people had to have killed all three of them. This couldn't have been one person probably. - Great point, Shannon. - Based on the fact that there's, he said number one, Jeff Ryan has two rottweilers that aren't gonna let strangers just fucking someone strange or do this. And that Ryan and Dahan wouldn't let a stranger into their home. So between the dogs and these two, they're not gonna let a guy in. Not to mention they said that there's guns in the house. They have guns. This guy, he's a war veteran. He knows how to use guns. They're both like tough guys too. They're both considered, neither of them are considered meek little pussies. Like they'll fight you and they're considered big, strong, strap and tough dudes. - Another fun point is that they went in where two, the 10-year-old and Dahan are at, one's going after each or multiples after. - In multiple directions. - Right. - That's how they look at it. So he says that also this guy says, "State police told the family that nothing has appeared to be stolen except the truck too." - And live. - So they're like, "Interesting." So Shannon, the son said, "No way one person could overpower two guys." My dad told me that if you did not know the dogs, they would bark and sound pretty aggressive. You couldn't just walk past them. They were like, "Frankie." They were like, "My dog, Frankie." - Yeah, they got to know you. - You come to the house. You got to be introduced to Frankie or else you're not going to have a good day. She's going to fucking scare the shit out of you. - She's going to let you know you're not welcome. - Real, real quick. You couldn't just walk past them. If they didn't know you, he would have to go out there and walk you by them. Exactly. - Oh, wow. You have to walk people into my house over with Frankie. She said, "That's the only way." He said, "Also, he's pissed off about Jamie, the ex-wife, "saying things about him in the media." He says that it's bullshit. My father was not selling and using prescription drugs. He said, "That's bullshit." He said he was a doting father who won custody of Jesse after a bitter fight with Jamie. And he said... - Oh, that's a great point too. - He said that he wouldn't have won custody if he had been the terrible guy that his ex-wife describes. - Right. - But at the same time, they shared custody though legally, but he did. He got him physically was living with him though. And a criminal record check in the state court revealed only one conviction against Jeff Ryan having nothing to do with drugs just for disorderly conduct in 1992 where he was fined $100. - So not even anything that is abusive of her. - 18 years ago, he got drunk and had a shoving fight in the street with some guy at a bar. That's what happened probably more than likely. - I wonder why she's saying that he beat her into shelters and shit. - No, they said Dajan also was convicted in 2004 of a DUI, but I mean, you know, or OUI, whatever, and was jailed for seven days. So I mean, neither of these two are like, you know, criminal fucking masterminds here or anything. - I think it's an OUI, which is-- - OUI, yeah. - Operating without influence. - This is, yeah, that's how they get you up there. - Yeah, so would you be around son? - Y'all had like a local, like a microbrew or anything? No. (upbeat music) - Hey everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you about a sponsor that can keep you safe, simply safe. - Simplysafe.com, S-I-M-P-O-I, safe.com. - Absolutely. 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Now back to the show. - As a professional welder, Shana Ford uses Forge FX to practice over and over, which helps her improve her skills. - The more muscle memory that you have, the smoother your weld is. - Learn more at meta.com/metiverseimpact. - Welcome to your next two crime obsession. Don't miss new Britbox original drama, The Sixth Commandment, which The Guardian calls as immaculate a piece of TV as you will ever see. - You will hear evidence of extreme gaslighting. Help me, please. - I am gonna be waiting on you hand-in-foot. - Stream this plus the best selection of British true crime series anywhere, only on Britbox. Once you start investigating, you won't be able to turn away. Start streaming today with a free trial at Britbox.com. - At least gargle some whiskey, boy, Jesus. - Get it on your breath is what I'm saying. - Are you gonna get any traction without it? - I mean, I'll give you a detector. It'll pull like an O2 or something. Don't worry, it'll be fine. - I got a nip of shots and shots, shnops. - Shnops, shnops, shnops. - I got shots and shnops. Come over here, boy. - I got shots of shnops. Who wants some? Who wants shots of shnops? By the way, licensed and registered, you know what it is, the thing with your address on and stuff. - It's your name and stuff. - It gets got numbers and you know where it is, you know. So, Shannon said the biggest thing I've been dealing with is all these negative things about my father. My father had two things in life, his home and his son. So that's the story from Shannon. He describes his father as a practical joker who loved to hunt and fish and grow his own vegetables. He said he spoke to his dad about every week on the phone and said that his father sounded fine during their last conversation. He described Jeff, or Dahan, the friend Jason Dahan as a close friend of his dad who lived a mile down the route. And he said they were friends for about 11 years. They were like brothers. So friends from the time he was 19 and you were 44. - That's weird brothers. - That seems like he's using whatever. - His father and son, it's not brothers. - Yes, it's him. If the other one's, Shannon's been in Texas this whole time, he could be substituting, she had this kid for Shannon. - Absolutely and looking out for him and going to have an older brother type. In this case, a father type. - Yes. - So do the police have any ideas or clues or what the box at this point, anything? They say that they don't want to comment on any motive. The Maine State Police spokesperson said we're aware of what the ex-wife has said and some of the same information she has shared with us. I love that she's just called the ex-wife in the newspaper by the way. - The ex-wife. - The ex-wife told us this, all right. I don't know, do you believe it? Who the fuck knows, you know what I'm saying? You can't trust nobody's ex. You know what I mean? - Not the ex-wife. - Who knows? So the locals go crazy though. Here's a guy named Larry Hamilton from Amity and he says you have to be pretty cold to stab a kid. - Yeah. - Yeah. - They said that all the residents were calling each other that morning. He said, quote, the phone was ringing early this morning. This is a small town and people are calling each other on the phone talking that way. So yeah, you have to be pretty shitty to do that. I would say, Joy Stroud here who, if you know. - That is, what's her name's mom? - That is Tamara Stroud, Jeff's ex-wife and mother of one of his kids, a 16-year-old daughter. - No fiance. - That's her mother, Joy. - Okay. - Okay, now they say that the Tamara and the daughter came into town and she says, Tamara says, we were together for nine years and we were going to get back together. They arrived at the property 'cause they let his 16-year-old daughter take the cat from the property. - Oh, so she, oh, that's nice. - It's her cat, I guess, so yeah, that's sad. So that's fucking sad. - She's gonna come get the cat that was in the house during this shit. Holy mike. That cat has seen some, so I don't know if I trust that cat. You might've given her lessons now on what to do. So Joy Stroud said she's shocked by the murders and it was the last thing she ever expected to happen on a nice route like this. She said, we live here because we thought this type of thing didn't happen here. Unfortunately, this show didn't come out for seven more years and she would've known better. - Well, he could've told you a long time ago. - Yeah, oh God, this happens so often, that we'll never run out of shows. - Not even worried about it, not even fun. - So much so often that we even started another one because we do this twice a week. Every fucking Friday, check it out. - And guess what, there was six or eight more this week. - Yeah, there's even more, we know of even more. So the truck is the key here for the cops. They gotta find the truck because hopefully, there's some evidence of who the killers are in the truck. So they're looking, they're asking for the public's help in locating the truck and they're saying it's a blue and silver 1989 F-150 with the license plate 4155RY, which was the original name of the town, as we know. - Yeah. - And from the earlier in the episode. And they said, the vehicle's very important to us. We feel it plays a very important role in the case. They say it has white wheels and white wheels in the front and silver in the back and has orange running lights on top of the cab just above the windshield, one of those. - Yeah. - Oh, that's yeah, it's a rare F-150 though. A lot of those don't have that. - No, no, it seems like something he customizes. - The marker lights are for Poland. That's something that indicates that you're coming down the road, there's gonna be a trailer behind this. - With some shit behind you. - Yeah. - Yeah, you live out here. It seems like you tow a trailer once in a while. - Yeah, with a boat on it or a fucking ATV on it or some kind of shit. So they do that, they post a photo of the truck and said, anyone who sees it, call 911, please. And they said they've received a few calls, but none have led to the right truck. Anybody's just seeing a F-150 and doing it. But they have everybody, the National Crime Information Center, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the US-Canada border crossing officials. Everybody's involved in this looking for the truck here. So they said we've had about 25 calls and with descriptions of the vehicle, but nothing has led us to it. So there's detectives everywhere. They said it might appear to the public that the investigation is moving very slowly. This is two days later. They really don't have any answers. But there are in fact very comprehensive cases. And the fact of the matter is that it's very early on in the investigation. And this is one, it's not like if you watch the first 48 you're gonna talk to this one, you're gonna talk to that one. There's nobody to talk to. Right. There's no one around, there's no witnesses. They talked and said to Jason came over here and they knew he came over there and now he's dead. Outside of that they got guts on this whole thing. Show me the fucking truck. And if you can't find it in the first 48 hours, you still got a chance to close this, but you gotta find that goddamn truck. You gotta find it. And they said though, we are asking people to pay attention to their own safety and lock their doors and vehicles. So there are, in other words, panic. Go ahead and panic everybody. Load your weapons, lock your fucking doors and sit in your living room in a sweaty panic until daybreak for now on. That's what you do. Yeah. So there's a man singing, "Give me the loot. Give me the loot coming through." And he wants your F-150. He wants it bad. So they talk about Jamie Merrill and when they notified her of this and they came to her house and knocked on her door to tell her fucking kids been slaughtered, which is horrific. They told her, "Jesse's dead." And she said, "What the hell are you talking about?" She was like, "What do you mean?" And so she said, "Do you mean my husband, not my son?" And they said, "Well, he's dead too." Yeah, that guy also. Yeah, him, we were getting to that. We figured, we didn't want to bury the lead of your son. We didn't think you'd care about that one. Yeah, we'd be honest with you. When you were all done crying out about your kid, we'd be like, "Oh, by the way, that guy too." Well, you asked about it. You didn't do it, yeah. She asked what happened to them, but they wouldn't tell her right away. She thought they'd been in a car accident was her idea. They probably went out fishing and maybe slid off the road, hit a tree or something. So she said that she asked whether someone had done something to her son and ex-husband and the officers looked at each other and then back at her and didn't say anything. Oh, Jesus Christ. She said torture. They wouldn't tell her, "Well, you can't." She, the problem is things have leaked out already 'cause it's 2010. So she said, rather than talk to them, she went online, looked on her phone and found more details immediately. She said, "I didn't even know my son was stabbed." Police told her to sit tight, she said. She said, "If that was your son who died "in the worst possible way you could imagine. "Would you want to just sit tight and sit there?" No. She said she couldn't believe the person hasn't been caught. She said, "This is ridiculous, it doesn't make sense." So I would say not. She's sitting there crying with her new fiancee and all this type of thing and she's six months pregnant. She fainted during this. They had to call an ambulance and take her to the hospital and fucking, you know, 'cause she fainted and all this, which I mean, Christ Almighty, your body's in enough uproar already. Oh, she's got so much, so much stress. She is creating so much blood right now. Absolutely, so they talked to her and her fiancee and her fiancee said that Jeff must have known his assailant and she agreed and said there must have been more than one person, so that's another. Everybody they talked to is like, "Not one person killed both of them." He doesn't, he's not going down without a fight type of guy. And she said, "I know in my heart "that he would have never let anybody hurt Jesse "if he could stop it, there's no way." So that's another thing, you would protect your child. So you figure, you know, that. And they said he had several guns in the house and she said they need to catch the people who did this. I just don't know how somebody could do this to a kid and walk around without a conscience. Fair, fair. So three days after they find the bodies, they find the burned remains of a pickup truck that they believe is Jeff Ryan's. Oh no. Yes, it's located about 15 miles from the home where it was taken. Okay, yeah. Witnesses told investigators that a witness said that he and his girlfriend were traveling on Bancroft Road in Weston and saw a maroon four-wheel drive Dodge extended cab pickup stopped at the entrance to a road leading to where Jeff Ryan's burn truck would later be found. Was there a tornado nearby? Was yeah, anything. Well no, there's a different truck at the entrance. Right, yeah. The burgundy truck from Twister was-- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where was Helen Hunt in regards to this situation? Was Helen Hunt in a wife-beater nearby? Is Philip Seymour Hoffman chasing you? And being so handsome. And being super well as usual. So funny charming. Yeah. Creepy, weird, funny, charming, strange, different. Food! Different, him so-- Weird man. They say they saw a male get out of the truck and head into the woods reportedly carrying a container out in front of him with two hands. So something heavy enough that needed to be carried with two hands out in front of you. Two hands, yeah. And she said it appeared that the top of the container had been cut off and that the male was walking as if he was trying not to spill the contents of the container. If you're walking like something. Something liquid. Something liquid, which the truck is burned so that would make a lot of sense. Yeah, gasoline, sure. They said that the witness looked like. They said the witness witness said they've seen this truck before. The Maroon Dodge. The Maroon Dodge, yeah. Looked like a truck owned by a guy they know named Robert Strout. Oh, I know that last night. Yeah, that is Tamara's father. Robert Strout. That is Joy's husband. That is an interesting thing here. So yeah, that's if you don't know, that's Jeff's ex-father-in-law is Robert Strout. And maybe a future. And maybe future father-in-law, you never know. Future ex-father-in-law. So they said they saw the truck head toward Danforth leaving that mail behind as he walked up the field road toward where the truck was eventually found. So they're saying Robert Strout and some dude carrying some liquid shit now. So they, on June 27, they go to Robert Strout's house. Let's talk to the Strouts and see what they have to say. And they see footwear impressions in the dirt path leading to the residence doorway. These are the similar footwear impressions to what they found next to Ryan's burned-out truck. So they're like, this is the same show in the same size. So they note that and take the pictures and all that kind of shit. Robert Strout's 63, by the way. He told police that he went to Sanford by himself on June 25th, two days after the murders, and returned the next day. And they also interviewed Tanya Strout and the Strout and all the Strouts here. So they then figure out that they have to talk to somebody else who's been staying around here in the house with them. And that is a guy named Thane Ormsby. Thane with a Y, T-H-A-Y-N-E, Ormsby, O-R-M-S-B-Y. Thane is 20 years old. - What's happening with this guy? - Well, they find out that he exists from one of Strout's daughters that tells them, oh, there's this other guy that's been kind of hanging out at the house living here now. They learn that Thane has been staying at Robert Strout's residence for several weeks. Strout said that he had taken Ormsby to stay with his son, Robert Strout Jr. here in Dover, New Hampshire, but that he had come back or whatever. So yeah, that's how that goes. Now, interesting, Ormsby, by the way, Thane Ormsby is the son of a woman named Maria Ormsby who's a longtime friend of Jeff Ryan's ex-wife, Tamara Stout. So that's how they know him. He's friends of the family. So if it put it this way, they've known each other a long time. Like if they were Italian, he would call her aunt fucking whatever. Like just 'cause their mother's been friends for so long. So they go to the Strout's house and they're talking to him. That's the story he gives. I went by myself. I don't know what you're talking about, but then they find out about Thane Ormsby from the daughters and then they go back to Robert Strout and now he's got a different story. Oh, he says that it was about Tuesday or Wednesday, June 22nd or 23rd. He was sitting on his porch when Ormsby came through the woods with his bike and went out behind the house. He then saw Ormsby's shirt, pants, and shoes were covered in blood. Oh, bad sign. Yes. So Ormsby told Strout that he killed Jeff Ryan and then just before walking away, said I killed them all and just walked away. Mr. Strout. Strout then tells police that he was threatened, that Ormsby threatened him, telling him that if he didn't help him, he would kill not only Robert, but Robert's whole family. I'll kill everybody. What they had to do was say we heard about Thane and then he just opened up a little bit. He just came with all this. Yeah. Oh boy. So he says that Ormsby says that, or Strout says Ormsby told him that he had gone to Ryan's home because Ormsby's father, Thane's father told him that Ryan owed him money. He said, "Jeff Ryan owed his father $10,000 on a drug deal and that his father wanted to collect it." That's what he told him. Now he also, Strout also says that Ormsby told him that he took Jeff Ryan's truck and that he had to get rid of it. So Strout followed Ormsby in Jeff Ryan's truck to Tamara Strout's house on Springer Road, and they believe that Ormsby parked Ryan's truck behind Tamara's residence and went into her home still wearing blood-soaked clothing of her ex-husband and soon to her future husband. Yeah, she would have to be very well aware of what happened. Strout tells the cops he left Thane there and just went back to his house, went back home. Robert said he later returned to the residence and saw Ormsby leave the home wearing nothing but his underwear. Just leave in the house in his underwear in the woods. Which is... - Dripped down, yeah. - They said Ormsby Thane reportedly burned his bloody clothing in the furnace of Tamara Strout's residence. Wow, yes. Strout, they said, "Drow of his own vehicle." Robert, that is. Drow of his vehicle followed Ormsby in Ryan's vehicle to the field road on Bancroft Road where the witness saw them doing that. Ormsby burned the truck according to this and came running back and told Robert Strout, "It's done." So it's presumably gasoline he was carrying or some kind of flammable liquid. Ormsby then told Robert Strout that he had to dispose of the knife that he used. It's a big fucking Rambo combat knife, by the way. - Sure it is. - It's a big nasty, non-serrated though. - Oh, very smooth, huh? - But a big nasty combat knife, they said. So apparently, Robert Strout drove him to a bog on U.S. Route One and dame through the knife into the water of a bog, which there's an ocean I would have gone there. - But those bogs will eat everything. - Maybe, maybe, but they're also like six inches deep. - Yeah, that's true. - But anything with some weight to it'll go at least six inches deep. - Yeah, metal detector though, you're pretty fucked. - Yeah, they'll find that. - You can go and knee deep and just metal detect and find that shit. So Thane also told Robert Strout that after he killed Jeff Ryan, he went back into the residence and saw Dahan and Jesse Ryan sitting on the couch. So he says he killed Jeff Ryan first, went into the house and saw Dahan and Jesse Ryan, Jason and Jesse sitting on the couch. Thane had told Strout that Dahan ran outside and Thane chased after him. He said he punched Jason, Dahan, and stabbed him with the knife and punched him before he knifed him again and then drug his body to the brook. That's what he says, which is the bushes he got found. - This little 20 year old did all this. - He then says he went back inside, this is what Strout is saying that he was told, that Thane went back inside where Jesse Ryan was running around, what, in circles? He's 10, not fucking, he's not a hamster. - He's like a puppy, yeah. - Yeah, and he said he stabbed him in the back bedroom of the mobile home. And they said, "Well, did he tell you why he did any of this?" And he said, "No, just that $10,000 thing, that was it." - Tangerine. - Tangerine. So Joy Strout, she, by the way, had talked to the Bangor Daily News one day after the bodies were discovered and she spoke of how her daughter had a child with Jeff Ryan and while this interview is going on, Thane is sitting at the table smoking cigarettes, just listening to them talk about-- - Right next to her. - Right next to her while she's talking about this guy and the news is, "Oh God, it's a tragedy." And he's just sitting there smoking cigarettes. - He knows all about it. - Listen to the whole fucking thing. The Jason's brother, Jake, who's one of the guys, one who went over and found them, he said that he had never seen Orms be before. Later on, when they-- - There's no idea who he is. - He said he's obviously an out of towner here. That was his quest, that was his answer to the whole thing. He's obviously an out of towner. - Okay. - Nobody here would do that. But he did say it could not have just been him to commit the homicides. There's no way he could have overpowered my brother. - Or a Vietnam vet, they are so strong. - Yeah, the two guys are both strong woods main guys. I mean, they do shit outside, they're strong guys. - This man separates wood. He's not, a 20 year old will not stab him. - Probably not, so that's all they have is Robert Stroud's word on this. Stroud's word, no one else has said anything. They don't have evidence of anything in there. So they're just looking into fame at this point. They find a Facebook profile belonging to Thane, listed Ellsworth as his hometown. He went to Ellsworth High. Many of his friends were from Ellsworth High. And he even had Tamara Stroud and Mariah Ryan listed as friends, who is the 16 year old daughter of Jeff Ryan. So that, the one who took the cat. His quote on his page is quote, "I have but two passions, love and war." - Okay, that's a quote, right? - Yeah, that's a quote. No, that's from somebody else. I would, 17 year old goes, "I have but two passions." That's his, come on now. So Donald Hiltz, he says now that he ran into Thane Oronsby. He comes a few days later to then goes to the police and said, "I ran into that 20 year old Thane Oronsby while Oronsby was staying with a friend at an apartment in Dover." This was a few days after the murders. And he said that he struck up a conversation with Thane in the parking lot. During the conversation, Donald Hiltz says that Oronsby started quote, "Talking about how he was an alcoholic and he gets very vicious when he drinks." Okay, so they're like, "We have a lot of..." The cops are like, "We have a lot of shit that doesn't add up and a lot of..." - And a lot of shit to follow up on. - A whole lot of stuff. - That's the gate. - Lots of questions to ask. We got more questions than answers as well. - Yeah, so we have this Robert Stroud guy with a story. He's the only one who said like a story of how the murder might have happened. So let's bring in this Thane Oronsby and see what he has to say. Maybe he's being set up by this or who knows. So June 29, 2010, they bring him into the dough. He's in New Hampshire at this point. Like they said, they were, he was hanging out at a friend's apartment. And so they go interview him in Dover, New Hampshire. He tells detectives he came to Orient to stay at the Stroud residence just after Memorial Day and left when Robert Stroud drove him to New Hampshire. He's like, "Yeah, I don't know." He said that he planned to move up to Tamara Stroud's residence in West and fix it up and live there with Stroud and Mariah, who is Jeff Ryan's daughter. His ex-wife and his daughter, he's gonna go live with. - Beautiful. - Thane told detectives he met Jeff Ryan once and at the only time he ever went to Jeff Ryan's house was two or three weeks before the murders. He said while he was there, he drank a bottle of beer and left the bottle on the kitchen sink. Yeah, like where you put recyclables, that's where he left. So they said that this interview with him, they didn't read him as Miranda writes, which they should have. They're not just talking to him 'cause he might have been a witness. They're talking to him because someone told them that this guy said he did the murder. So if he's that level of, they absolutely should have read him as fucking writes if they wanna be above board here. - If he's that interesting as a person and a suspect and a person of interest at minimum, let him know. - You gotta do that. But they said they didn't, they told him he wasn't under arrest, they didn't read him as Miranda writes, they said it was real, they kept a real loosey goosey, which makes people think that it's not serious. - But if he's not under arrest, should they be reading him as writes? - Absolutely, yeah. If you look at any interrogation, look on YouTube, any murder interrogation, none of those people are under arrest yet for the most part, a lot of times are being brought in for questions, some of them are once in a while, but a lot of times it's like, oh yeah, your wife was murdered this afternoon, isn't that horrible, let's see if you know anybody. The first thing they do is read the writes. Number one fucking A1 thing you do because otherwise if something, let's say they make a crazy confession in there. - Yeah, all right. - Let's say you're asking them, so you wait for breakfast and he's like, I stabbed my wife in the face, stabbed her in the face, I couldn't help it, you're fucked now. - It's useless, yeah. - That might not be, you know, admissible. So he, during this interview there, they did all of that, they asked him, well, would you, would you submit DNA and fingerprint samples for us too? And he said, absolutely, they said, no problem. - Really? - Yeah, they said, have you ever met Jason DeHaan or Jesse Ryan, and he said, not at all? I've never met either one of them. I've just met Jeff the one time and I know of him through his ex-wife and his daughter and you know, the whole family there. And here's my fingerprints and my DNA. And they said, also, do you smoke? And he said, yes, I do. They said, all right, thank you for answering questions. You go have a good one. - Yeah. - Okay, three days later, they get the results back of all the DNA, and they find out that Ormsby's fingerprints matched the latent print from a beer bottle that was collected from the kitchen counter in the residence. - Right. - Now how good of a housekeeper is Jeff Ryan? - How long has it been there? - That's what I mean. - Who fucking knows? - Maybe, just who knows. So then though, the next day, the lab determines that Ormsby's DNA matches the unknown male DNA profile collected from that bottle as well, and a cigarette bought in the ashtray of the kitchen table. - How long? - How long? Again, we go to housekeeping at this point. So, they travel back to New Hampshire to interview Thane again, now that they have this information. I'm not gonna tell him this at first though. - Right. - No, they sit him down, or they bring him actually, he's at an apartment, and he agrees to be interviewed again. This time though, they read him as Miranda writes immediately, and several other times, when they first make contact with him, when they get to the station, and then when they start questioning again, so he gets read like three times. He never asked for a lawyer, they told him he's not under arrest, you know, you don't have to answer questions. When he was still at his apartment, or his friend's apartment, when they go to bring him in, he was so cooperative, as soon as they said you come down to the station, he started emptying his pockets. - Like right now? - Like right now, right now. - Yeah. - Like you do at the station, and they said, no, no, no, you're not under arrest, you can bring it whatever you want with you, you're fine. Whatever shits in your pockets, let's just go. They said, you don't even have to meet with us if you don't want to, we're just asking you to. So he said, oh, all right, cool, anyway. So, they go to police headquarters, and they go into the interview room, and so they have this all on video, which you can find, by the way, on YouTube. And the video is also part of all the records of everything in court later, and all sorts of shit like that. So as the interview began, he sits next to the door, which was left a jar several inches throughout the interview. - Oh. - This is on purpose. Most of the time you want to keep a guy closed in and feel like that. They feel like they might get more out of this guy if he feels like he's got an out. He feels like he can't leave. - And like he's free. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - They might get more out of him this way. It depends on who you're interviewing of what you, and it's a gut feeling, and I'm sure experience if you do a hundred homicide interviews. - You can't ask them. - Yeah, what would make you less comfortable if we did this or that? It's a, you gotta know, it's part of the job. So, you know, he's just sat in the chair and they get close to him. They're present, one guy is sitting, he's kind of sitting in the corner thing is, and one guy's sitting like right here, leaned into him. Just, I mean, closer than I am to you right now. Just fucking right in his face, and the other guy's kind of the second guy. He's the guy who's leaned back, taking more notes and not adding as much to the thing, which is what they usually do. They get one guy, kind of be the chill back detective, and then the other detective is that I'm in your face asking you questions detective. So, they both had plain clothes and all kinds of shit like that. You know, not in uniform or anything. So, the first 15 minutes of the interview, he engaged them in a wide ranging, often light-hearted discussion of various topics, according to court documents here. And they told Thane that he was not under arrest, he's free to leave at any time, and Thane said that he would be shocked if he were under arrest because he didn't do anything, and that quote, "I'm here to cooperate. "I'm just here to help you guys, I don't know shit, "about nothing." - That's our guy, yeah. - So, they read him as Miranda writes again, and he said he understood everything, and Orans be explained to them that he said, "Right to remain silent, does that mean plead the fifth?" And he said, "Do I need a lawyer?" And they said, "That's up to you." Which is always the question, "I don't know, do you?" That's a fuck, do I, I'm not you. - These are your rights, not my rights. - Yeah, my rights. - You determine them your way. - Yeah, what do I look like? You're a fucking guidance counselor, I have no idea. - I'm not your lawyer, dog. - So, they said everybody looks relaxed, and he's offered food, and given food breaks, and drink breaks, and he sticks to his original story here, originally, and they do all of this, and until they say, "By the way, "we have your DNA on shit around there." - Oh. - And then it's kind of a different story. Also, somebody saw you running away from the car, or like a gasoline thing, and all that sort of deal. So, he actually wants to remain silent, and sort of says stuff that he wants a lawyer a couple of times. He alludes to, "Maybe I should have a lawyer." Well, that's not asking for a lawyer. - That's not asking for one, yeah. - I want a lawyer, they have people, you are responsible for yourself in there. And they do, especially if people of our lower intelligence or something like that, they take advantage of that a lot in these confessions. Don't get me wrong, and they even get false confessions that way. But if you're an adult who's of average intelligence, it's you have to know what you're doing in there. No one's there to help you. - This is your life, man. - Yeah, those people are not there to help you. - No. - They're there to do their job. Now, your job is to take care of yourself. So, you need to figure out whether you need a fucking lawyer or not in a certain shit. So, he says, "Thane, I want the truth," is what the one detective says. "Thane says, I know you want the truth, "but I'm gonna have to plead the fifth at this point." - Oh. - "Now, is that I want to remain silent, "or is he just saying I don't want to answer that question?" - That's just the question, right? - That's the meaning of it, but does he know that's the meaning of it? And this is where a legal shit gets very complicated later on. So, they said, the detective said, "Okay, all right, "does that mean you want to stop talking, "or," and Thane says, "for a minute." So, you just want to break? - Yeah. - That's not saying I don't want to talk and I want an attorney, though, that is-- - That's just, give me a sec. - Give me a sec to breathe, yeah. Thane says, "I don't want my name released to the press." Oh, sorry, Thane. I don't want two comedians to make fun of me for two and a half hours is what I'm trying to avoid here. - He doesn't want me to know it? - Well, guess what, we know. So, too late, and they said, "Oh, okay, okay, "one step at a time." Then they said, "You're responsible for this, right?" Like, just flat out, that's the question. And Thane-- - So you did this, right? - So, yeah, you did this, right? That just to get that out of the way, like, we know we're both in the same page. Thane said, "I won't say." So, they said, "Okay, why don't you go have some, "we'll get a cigarette break, okay?" And then he says to the other detective, "Okay, you'll go out and have a little cigarette "and, you know, we'll take a breath "and, you know, then come back in and relax here." And the other cop says, "Coffee, maybe, you know, "you want coffee?" And then they said, "And then we'll talk some more." And Thane says, "Possible." Like, "Well, I'll have coffee in a cigarette "and go from there." All right. - Maybe. - So, Thane said, when they get back, he said, "You know, I'm glad at this point, "so I'd be willing to tell you everything you want to know." He got the cigarette in the coffee was good to him. It was real good to him, and he was just like, "You know what, fuck it, I'll tell you what you want to know." Scored the detective so off guard, he said, "I'm sorry, what?" - So, again? - He didn't, normally they're like, "Okay," and they wouldn't miss a beat, but he was so out of left field, like, what was that? Sorry? And then he says, "Perhaps I do need a lawyer." And the detective says, "Well, go have a smoke "and we'll come back and finish it up." So, he just leaves it hanging. "Perhaps I do need a lawyer?" - Uh-huh. - Which still, that perhaps is the problem. That's the problem. - Yeah, and he didn't say, "I need a lawyer." He said, "Perhaps I need a lawyer." - Yeah, if he said, "Perhaps." - If he said, "I do need a lawyer," end of story, "Perhaps I do need a lawyer," is still, "Maybe I'm thinking about it." So, they go, "Well, we'll just have a smoke "and we'll think of it." They tried to keep it real casual. So, during the break, Thane asked the one detective about what sort of punishment he might be facing for these crimes. - Oh. - And he also, yeah, what kind of punishment? Then he also said, "Well, I guess your search "for your killer is over." These is why he smoked while he's smoking outside. Like, he's just casually doing that. So, then they get back inside and he says, "Out of free will, I will give you what you want." Or, "I will give you what I want," he says. "Out of free will, I will give you what I want." And they said, "Really?" And he said, "Why the hell not?" And-- - Why the hell not? - Yeah, 'cause, and then they said, he said, "Why the hell not again?" 'Cause the detective said, "You don't have to write down "anything, you can just say it's all being videotaped." And he said, "Why the hell not?" Let me write it down, too. - I'm having fun. - He doesn't, this is weird. So, then he says, "All right, one of the guys "who got murdered was a drug dealer "who caused pain in his life and the life of others." And he said, "The other two were perfectly innocent." Okay, this is the way he put it. So, he said, the detective said, "Well, now we have a problem." He said, "Your DNA and your fingerprints "were on recently used items at the crime scene. "Therefore, your statement that you had only been there "two weeks before the murders was not credible, obviously. "And they say also, at this point later on, "it'll be very much debated "whether they forced him to talk now." They said that although Keegan, detective Keegan, did not display anger, hostility, or aggression toward Ormsby, he did adopt a more direct manner. As Ormsby began to make concessions in response to Keegan's questions, he told Keegan, "You know more than I do." To which Keegan replied, "I know everything, "and soon you're gonna know that I know that you know." Which is, then he said, "It's a little dance we're doing, "but you know that I know." Which is Homicide Detective 101. Is I know way more than I'm even asked. - I'm gonna tell you. - Yeah. Some people wanna talk, so you go enacting, like you don't know anything, and sometimes you go, "I know everything, and you know I know." - And by the time we're finished talking, you're gonna hear some things that allude to you that I know that you don't want me to know something, but it doesn't matter 'cause I already know it. - I know you know that I know, so you know? (laughs) - Exactly. - So you're in trouble, is what I'm saying. You're fucked. - Yep, that was right before the cigarette break here. So later on, they said that he was saying that Jeff was a bad person and a drug dealer, so they said, "You hated Jeff because he was a drug dealer?" And Thane said, "I mean yeah, I smoke weed, "but I don't believe in drugs." - Which, I love when people say they don't believe in something, that always makes me laugh 'cause I just think like it's, you don't, it exists. I don't believe in that, like it doesn't exist. Well, it exists. - I hate to tell ya. - I hate to tell ya, sorry. - Go to Manchester, New Hampshire. There's a lot of drugs there. - A drug's exist. - It exists. - So the cop said, "So you decided to take care "of that, a vigilante-type thing?" And he says, Thane, "My plan was to kill Jeff Ryan "and leave no witnesses or evidence. "They were bad people and they hurt people, "and I thought it was some means of justification. "I thought something good could grow "for taking them away." - Okay. - By the way, most murderers on our show don't say some means of justification. - They also don't say taking them away when the one person that they're justifying is bad. - That's what's wrong. - Damn, you son of a bitch. - So they said you went out in the shed with Jeff Ryan and the cop said he was out there to show you some nails or something, and Thane said, "That's it." Yeah, 'cause he had asked him if he had a certain type of nail. Thane had asked Jeff. The cop said, "And he bent over to get you the nails "and what happened?" And Thane said, "I killed him." Cop said, "You killed Jeff, and how'd you do that?" And Thane said, "With a knife." He said, "I knew I couldn't just leave him there "with two people who just saw me. "So I go back in, I stab Jason." So he walks in, the kid and the friend are on the couch, he stabs Jason first, which makes a lot of sense. Jason wouldn't run away while you stabbed a kid. You know what I mean? He'd probably go, "Hey, stop stabbing that kid." - Probably try to stop you, right? - Assuming so, or at least go try to find Jesse or something, or Jeff, I mean. So he said, "I go back in, I stab Jason. "Jesse ran into the back room." So he left Jason for dead in the living room and then went after Jesse in the back room. So I chase Jesse, he was the quickest. That's gross, he was 10, that's why he's the quickest. - Yeah. - Fucking gross. He just said he was scared and then there's a pause and he goes, "The families don't need to know that, right?" Like, that's probably a detail they don't wanna know. - That's too much, don't tell them that part. - The cop said, "No, but we do." - Yeah, they don't even know where we need to know and they said, "How many times you think you stabbed him?" Meaning, Jesse, and Thane said, "Well, I heard on the news five, "so I'm assuming it was five." Yeah, and remember. - That's not the answer. - No, but a lot of people don't remember how many stabs or how many gunshots sail it off. It happens all the time. It's a very common thing. - Gun shots, really? - Oh, all the time. - There's only a certain amount that are in that gun, unless you reloaded, you know what I mean? - Yeah, but I mean, they'll talk to cops that have been in like a shootout situation and not even where they're in trouble or anything where they have reason to lie. And they'll go, "What'd you show?" And he goes, "I squeezed off two rounds "and all of their fucking, they're empty." And they squeezed off sex and they were like, "I squeezed it, really?" I thought it was two. It's just your brain does not let you fucking file something. - But with a revolver too, if you've got a small amount in there, six goes so fast. - Oh, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, over. You can empty a 38 and it feels like you've got some left and it's just click-clicky and it's no good. - You just don't, people forget things. - You better just throw this gun. - Fucking naps, hopefully it's heavy enough. So he said, "I'm assuming it was five." So the detective said, "So then you come back out "to check on Jason and he's gone?" 'Cause he was and Thane says, "And he's gone." He disappeared, which is, imagine if you're him coming out and covered in blood with a knife and you're like, "Oh, fuck, I lost one." Exhausted too. - Yeah, yeah, you're stabbing the shit out of people chasing a 10 year old through a trailer. He said he disappeared, he ran down the road and I chased him down the road. That's why you found him in a ditch. He didn't understand because obviously I had just met him and there was no reason for me to be doing this. It was really the first time I met him. - Wow. - And the cop said, "Did you do something else besides stab him?" And Thane said, "I cut his throat." They said, "You cut his throat? "How many times did you cut his throat?" He said, "Two, maybe three slashes." - He knows too much. - Oh, it's crazy. So he said he didn't plan to kill Jason or the boy. He said, "I didn't want to kill them, "but I didn't want to get caught for murder." - True. - So, you know. - Here we are. - He described stabbing Jeffrey Ryan multiple times in the back when he turned away to show him some nails in the wood shed. It's just that he was just stabbing the shit out of people, basically. So, police asked him what they should do next. What should we do next? And Ormsby said, "You need to arrest me first for starters." - Yeah. - Obviously. - He's in jail, so, guys. - Why do you want me to tell you how to do your job? - Yeah. You need to arrest me first for starters, like, yeah. Before we get anything going, you probably need to process me a little bit. Get some shit like that. - Those charges are going nowhere without me. So, lock me up, guys. - That's fucking weird. So, yeah, they said DNA evidence, fingerprint evidence, and confession now they have. And they have the witness tying him to the truck and the Robert Stroud, and they have all these different things. Problem is Robert Stroud has not told the truth completely yet at all. - Oh? - And lied a couple of different times. And so, there's a problem there, whether that's not all wrapped up in a neat little bow. They think he might've had more to do with this than possible. Classmate, they talk, the press talk to his former classmates, 'cause he's only 20, fame. They say, "What the fuck has he always been "and not, or what's going on here?" And people said, "No, no." In his last month, he posted, "Life is Good" on his Facebook page. - Oh, so, he's been a douche. - He's been a tool. He wasn't like leaning on a cool car, at least. And he just said, "Life is good." And so-- - Did he also post things like, "It is what it is?" - Is what it is, man. And then, like with a Fred Durst is the one who said it or somebody stupid like that. He said-- - It's good. - He said, "His friends said this makes me sad. "How did things change so much in just over two months?" He made the Facebook entry on April 22nd. So, they're like, "That's ridiculous." They said, "Friends said they remembered him "as a friendly teenager," meaning fame. "Some said he had a dark side "and he had changed before he left high school. "From what I understand, piecing together "his background here, it's a tough thing to piece together. "He lived with his uncle from 12 to 17." From the time he was 12 to 17. - What happened to this kid? - Well, he was removed from his mother's home by the Department of Health and Human Services because of physical abuse. - Oh? - So, he was, yeah, literally the state took him out of her home, bad stuff. So, he lived with an uncle. He attended Ellsworth High School within the last several years, where he was a member of the track and wrestling teams. - Okay. - So, he's a strong kid that knows how to fucking scrap, too, which is another thing they thought about. He's a big tall blonde kid. - But he's also a smart kid that's qualifying for extracurriculars. That's crazy. - He's got to pass everything. - Just a few years later, he's a piece of shit. - He was on the honor roll in high school, but didn't graduate. Dropped out during a senior year. - If you're listening to this podcast, then chances are good. You are a fan of the Strange Dark and Mysterious. And if that's true, then you're in luck. Because, once again, Mr. Ball and podcast, Strange Dark and Mysterious Stories is available everywhere you get your podcasts. Each week, on the Mr. Ball and podcast, you'll hear new stories about inexplicable encounters, shocking disappearances, true crime cases, and everything in between, like our recent episode titled White Dust. After a middle-aged couple fail to answer their daughter's messages and calls, the daughter drives the few hours to her parents' house to check on them. But, after arriving and seeing both her parents' cars in the driveway, the daughter gets an uneasy feeling and just can't stomach going inside. To hear the rest of that story, and hear hundreds more stories like it, follow Mr. Ball and podcast on Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music. - The wait is over. - So far you're not losing. The only thing you're losing is my patience. - Quickly, I see that. - Ding! - The queen of the courtroom is back. - I didn't do anything. - You wouldn't know the truth if it came up and slapped you in the face. I see he's not intimidated by anything. I can fix that. - New cases. - She wanted to fight me? - Leap or? - A law. - Okay, so-- - Matt, this is not a soul. This is a period. - Classic Judy. - Did you sleep with her? - Yes, Your Honor. - You married his cousin. - His brother. - That's not him. - Yes, ma'am. - Make a beeline for the door. - The Emmy Award winning series Returns. - How did I know that I have crystal ball in my head? - It's an all new season. - It's streaming. You can say anything. - Judy Justice. Only on freebie. - The principal of the school said he was a student here and no problems with him. They said that friends said that they knew he had a troubled home life and came from a bad background but that he was a friendly nice guy. One classmate said it's so shocking. I don't know anyone who didn't think he was a good guy. Another one said, when I knew him, he was a Sunday through Wednesday church goer and he went to Bible study groups on Thursdays. So he has gone way around the block here. One friend though said he had his dark side and this person met him when they were members of this school cross country, cross country track team. And he said he was a good kid back then. He had a different group of friends but he was well liked by everyone from there. They said he had a tough childhood, a tough life from the start, his friend said. We knew he was like an American Viking and could probably stay out in the woods forever but I never would have predicted anything like this happening. So they were like, we expect him to maybe do some weird shit and like go like be like the guy on that fucking garden documentary. I'm like, we expected that out of him probably but not just like learning how to spear a fish while he's nude. - Right, he's an outdoor capable person. I wouldn't see butchering a family and their family friend. - Probably not. Then they found out that he, there was apparently two people he wanted to kill and Jeff Ryan was just number one. He had a list at home with kill this guy and kill this guy. And the second person on the list had not been physically harmed and they kept it the name secret. So how are all these fucking murderers so fucked in the head but so organized enough to make lists of people they have to kill? - Yeah, that's man, I can't even keep track of whether or not I have bread in the house. - I can't keep track of these shows and what state we did. - Oh God, forget it. - But it's so hard. This guy's like, gotta kill him, okay. He only went that down just from jealous of their organizational skills. So people said that yeah, one person described him as unfailingly polite and another person in two minutes later described him as a walking monster. So these are both people that knew him in high school. - Yeah, depends on who you are and the interaction you had with this man. - One person that knows him very well here is a guy named John Froury. Froury, Froury, F-R-A-R-Y. - A tough name. - Froury. - Froury. Apparently Froury, John was a former college professor and he tried to make a run at a House of Representatives congressional seat here. He tried to unseat U.S. Rep Mike Mucad. Mucad, how the fuck do you say that? M-I-C-H-A-U-D during the 2008 election. - Mushadi? - Mushadi, maybe, Mucad. He tried to unseat him. This guy's running as a Republican. He said, John Froury said that Thane was a tall blonde young man. He was hardworking, unfailingly polite, knowledgeable, but at the same time immature and unmotivated. You know, like a 19 year old. - Right. - Yeah, capable sometimes if they feel like it. That's how it works. - Generally, he just dropped out of high school a year ago. He's not accountable. - No, but Thane joins John Froury's campaign. - Sure, yeah. - Froury has like, he like takes homeless people and brings them into his house and makes them work on his campaign or has them work on his campaign. - Yeah, 'cause they probably are grateful for 12 bucks. - It's very strange what he's doing here. So this was when he was 18, this John Froury, new Thane. He said that he took him in for a short time in 2009, then he left and then Thane came back and left again. And he said that it's strange, a quote, as the Thane Orms be accused of murder is a stranger to me. During the time I knew Thane, I never saw any violence in him, nor did I even hear him speak of violence. This guy Froury said that he gave, he gives shelter in his Farmington home to a number of people over the years. He said that he had been, Thane had been kicked out in some apartment and had nowhere to go. And he gave Thane room and board and a small salary in exchange for working on his campaign. Yeah. So he said, I've given shelter to a number of strays over the years, not all feline. Some had pretty exotic personalities. All the same I was surprised to learn last week that an individual I've sheltered under my roof is charged by police with having butchered two men and a 10 year old boy. - Yeah, one of my cats is bad. - Bad cat, bad kitty. I gotta declaw her boy. So she said, during my campaign for Congress, I acquired three live in AIDS. That's not normal, by the way, acquired, the acquired. He said, all of whom qualified as homeless. One is Adam had been a cop in Prince George County, Maryland until he left to escape chronic depression. Anyone who has watched the wire on TV will understand this. He couldn't watch the series because it was too reminiscent of his experience in uniform. He had taken a construction job in Baltimore but found the promiscuous use of the N word by his redneck colleagues in tolerable. His mother, who was visiting me at the time, suggested he quit and come to Maine for the campaign. So he abandoned his apartment in inner city Baltimore, turned his meager possessions over to a girlfriend and found shelter in one of my spare bedrooms between August and November 2008. Jesus Christ, another one here is Chris had been sleeping on the kitchen floor of his sister's apartment when his father suggested he might be interested in my campaign. He gave me a call. I had him checked out and then added him to my household. Jesus. - Added him to my, his passing. And who does he think he is with his wire references? You, that's not fair. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - He shut up about the wire, sir. - Shut up about that. Who do you think you are? Us, he said, the lad was practically anthropomorphic computer peripheral and spent most of his life in cyberspace. - What? - Jesus Christ. He's basically half man half computer I think is what he just said. - Who's the lawnmower man? - Fuck. He said he was given, when he was given a concrete assignment he performed brilliantly and I was capable of working 10 hours straight. Then he said there was Thane Ormsby. He said, quote, being an old guy, senile and confused. I can't remember exactly how he came into the picture. He had been living with some people over an industry until he had a falling out because he was way behind on his rent. He had a home of sorts and Ellsworth, but it was not a happy one. He spoke, he sometimes spoke with disdain of his quote, two mommies. So I don't know what that's about. - Hm, a lesbian or-- - Don't know. Or does he mean-- - He's got a mom and a step mom? - Well, the other one was the Tamara was the thing. But that was his dad's old wife. So that's like a reverse step mom. - What the fuck is happening? - Not his dad's wife, no that wasn't a step mom. What are we talking about? - Just a friend of a friend. - Yeah, holy shit, wow. - His mom's got to be a lesbian, right? - Maybe or, I don't know. They said their fondness for the bottle, their chaotic style of life, and their friends all seemed to disgust him. Yet when I visited their household, there seemed to be ties of genuine affection. Apparently, yeah, two mommies. Anyway, he qualified as fully homeless, no money, no job, no home. I provided him with room board and a little pocket money. He in return performed his campaign duties willingly and skillfully, handing out literature, introducing the candidate, driving me around without incident or accident. He took orders readily, bore a certain amount of sarcastic correction calmly, and got along with the other two aides without friction. Froury went on to say, "He told me that this was the first time "he had ever slept in sheets was at my home." - Wow, never had sheets before. Yeah, yeah, one of those. - So they said that he, Froury said, they drove him all around the state to campaign, and that the teenager introduced him at events and handed out campaign literature, and he said that he was polite to the point of obsequiousness. So really being over the topic. - Tarnish should've won, he's got all the words, man. - Well, he's got all the words, but he also has a crew of fucking homeless people he recruited who live in his house and haven't run a fucking political campaign anymore. So maybe that's why he didn't win. - They've never seen sheets, man, fuck politics. - Yeah, he's never buying that shit. They don't know how this works. So he said he read a lot and was pretty smart, smarter than most people his age. He did a job skillfully, and he was very good at talking with people. He said people who knew came to know him through me were amazed, he was very smooth. He said his only addiction seemed to be cigarettes. He said I didn't believe, I don't believe he was doing drugs when I knew him. He didn't have a money or a vehicle to go out and get them. I never smelled marijuana smoke in my home. So he said that after his campaign kind of went away, that's when Thane's life kind of fell apart too. He said during the campaign, he had tasks to do, he had a direction in his life. After it ended, he had nothing. That's for people who work in politics too, after it ends, it's a big come down from that shit. So he continued to live with Ferrari after the campaign ended. The one thing was he said he wanted to join the Marine Corps. Thane did. So Ferrari drove him to a local recruiting office one day, and it was closed. So he said after that, for arms to be decided he didn't want to join anymore. Must have been a sign. - It's closed, so. - Yeah. Funny thing is out of the other aides, Adam moved to Kentucky to get his college education and ended up graduating. Chris moved home to enroll in college, and Thane just wandered around. He said, "I put him in my brother's study back in the woods." Joseph, having settled permanently in year round in the Philippines, meaning that this guy's brother. He mostly stayed out from underfoot, rendered some useful services from time to time and made plans. These plans were not essentially impractical, but they took on the aspect of fantasy because he never acted on them, meaning Thane. Ferrari said arms be seemed depressed about his life and his prospects for the future. Armsby did not speak well of his family according to Ferrari, but when Ferrari visited, he said that they talked and teased cheerfully and seemed to love one another. Ferrari said that he never talked about his father or any connection to Amity or Orient or anywhere near there in Maine. He was just polite and all that kind of thing. He said he mostly did what he was told without objection. Got along well with my cats. - Oh. - Well, that's important. I took him along to state Stephen's traditional angelic and church, or Anglican church, sorry. He even officiated as an acolyte on several occasions. - What the fuck? - Really? - Some women described him as downright chivalrous. - Oh, an angel. - An angel. I detected no homicidal tendencies. Whenever he said something weird-- - I detected nonchial. - I didn't think he was going to kill everybody, it's just weird. Whenever he said something weird, I attributed it to natural goofiness of the adolescent male entering manhood. I have no therapeutic talent or ambition. Anced bores me. When you are readily advancing on age 70, a realistic view of your future features senile decay and death. This guy is a breath of fucking pressure. - Sure, no. - Real ray of sunshine, this guy. - No one do you lost. - I'm gonna take him with me to all my doctor's appointments and we're just gonna have a good time. Tell me the bad side. So when he spoke despairingly of his present and future, I felt to point out that his possibilities were far greater than mine. Like, well, I'll be dead in 10 years, so be happy. He said that he was in good health and had an excellent physique, meaning feign, and he called him, quote, absurdly good looking. Are you getting the vibe here? - Who is going on? Why are you-- - That he takes-- - Yeah. - And it was whole-- - Why do you wrangle in desperate men and then compliment-- - Yeah, it's interesting. - His life was not such a blank. He had acquired some useful skills, was far less ignorant than most high school graduates and read a lot and was far from stupid. If at the end of any given year, he could look back and see that he knew more, understood more, and develop some new skill, then he could say he was progressing, even if he had no permanent job or residence. We parted ways when I reprimanded him for overloading the washing machine for the second or third time. - Really? - That's how this all came to look ahead here. He brooded over this for some hours, then confronted me in my study, demanding to know whether I wanted him around. Silly question, why would I want to have an 18 year old around? Naturally, I said no. He mistook my frankness for a decree of expulsion and departed huffily. His absence was no great loss, his presence had been no great burden, if only he had learned not to overload the damn washing machine. In truth, I found him less annoying than most adolescents. He said, perhaps if I were more empathetic and emotionally warmer, things would have taken a different turn, but that is empty speculation. My personality took shape years ago. Empathy, when it does come, always catches me by surprise. Well, he sounds like a real joy. This guy, though. - Sure enough. - I'm glad he didn't get elected. Some guy who says empathy catches me by surprise. It's not have him fucking making laws. That shit is a real. - Wow. He needed a better friend than I and he had two. Both worked harder to straighten him out and both had clearer sense of the dark undercurrents. I had a little more to offer than shelter and cold logic. As to the former he gave about as well as he got, worked hard on the campaign and did heavy lifting around the house. I've spoken to some others who knew him since I wrote the account above. Two independently of each other pointed out some parallels with the talented Mr. Ripley. This comes up a lot. The prosecutor will bring this up as well. - Really? - You know the talented Mr. Ripley, the story? - Is that? - Oh, that's a lot of many snickets. I don't know. - It's Jude Law was in the movie. - Jude Law. That's good. - And basically a guy, he's a con man and he goes around and he inserts himself into this guy's life. And he convinces this guy that he went to college. He learns just enough about him. He's a con man. So he learns and by talking to him learns more just enough about his life to convince him that he went to college with him. - I was there with you. - We were there together. So you've known me for years. - Wow. - And also then we're the same because we went to the same college and we're in the same class and all that kind of shit. - Alumni, yeah. - So he ends up basically single light femaleing him almost by through this whole thing. He becomes, you know, he's a con man. - He comes in. - And then at the end, they're in a rowboat and he fucking kills this guy with a fucking oar. He beats him to death with an oar. - And becomes him? - No, but he just beats him to death with an oar because this guy knows who he is now. His secret's out. He found out who he was and he found out what's going on. And now he can't deal with it so he kills the guy. He's a con man. - What the fuck? - He's a con man that can put himself into any sort of thing. If you want this guy and he's saying he's the same way. He can last on the street. He can go into this and act like he's a nice guy and a political campaign. He can go into a church and blend with those people. - Yeah, what's the benefit of pretending to have gone to college with Jude Law or Matt Demon or whoever's who? - To become part of this thing and there's business. - Is there money? - Yeah, there's business gain to gain in all this type of shit. Yeah, 'cause you're in a high circle now. Yeah. And so these con men, they don't want their bubble to get burst out. They don't want their secret to get out. And I think that's the point of what they're trying to say here. - Wow. - He had the same type of thing as talented Mr. Ripley. He could do the, you know, he could go into whatever group and act like he was part of that group and people would accept him. - Wow. - And he could latch onto it. So that's a... - Good for him. - That's also a talent you get when you have to move a lot as a kid. - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Because that's, and you could either take it and become a comedian or you can be a con man. - 'Cause that's, you know, that was every week. - Yeah, every week. - That was, I had that skill just bouncing around a lot as a kid. - Yeah. - You have the skill of being able to figure out, you know, where to fucking get yourself in there. So he says, quote, this is he's finishing the talent of Mr. Ripley. I had to think about that a bit before it made sense to me. Thane once told me that his first experience of sleeping between sheets is at my house. Even discounting for self-dramatization, this fit with other bits and pieces he disclosed about his upbringing. Yet he mingled easily with UMF students and educated affluent middle class people and displayed excellent manners. This is the same thing that Ripley did. - Well, but this mother fuckers felt sheets. - Yeah, he's felt sheets, but. - He's lying son of a bitch. - He makes this guy feel like he's a big great, you know, charitable guy, 'cause he's got sheets. He knows how to play the role. This ready adaptation to the people around him is the Ripley parallel. I begin to wonder that if cold matter-of-fact confession Janet Mills told me about was not a new persona, was not a new persona he was trying out with the police, which makes sense. He said, I have no knowledge at all about the crowd he got up into in the county. The confused story emerging from that place suggests pretty similar, pretty sinister influences. The story coming out of our Arustuch, Arustuch, gets weirder and wilder. There's talk of a drug connection. I can supply a little testimony on that. There was never any weed smoke around my house. He didn't have the time, the money, or the mobility to acquire narcotics while he was under my roof. If he developed any kind of addiction, it could have only been after we parted. The other details leave me completely baffled. The fact that I found Thane so manageable makes me wonder if there wasn't some third-party management involved, but I can only wonder. Yeah, so. Yeah, this is the, it's interesting. He said, Froury said he had talked to him a few weeks before the homicides. He talked to Thane over Facebook, they reconnected. And Froury said, he told me he was living an orient and I asked him how he got there. He answered me and I corrected his spelling in the message and that was it. I never heard from him again. What? So did correcting his spelling in a Facebook message caused this kid to snap? Maybe. He was like, fuck you. You know what it was too that he said? The spelling was on Zeus. The spelling of the word Zeus. He mixed up the U and the E. The U and the E. Wow. And he said that the he corrected him on, never heard from him again. Next thing he knows, he's a murderer. So don't fuck with Zeus as the moral of this story here. So yeah, he said that Thormsby just seemed impressionable, but he had a chameleon-like ability. Yeah. He said, when I think of that film now, that is what Ormsby seemed like. He said that he did not come from wealth, but he had no trouble mingling with the affluent. He acquired their speech, their mannerisms. He did that very easily and very quickly. Jack Dawson. Yeah. He said that if he is indeed guilty, I see no grounds for clemency. He didn't make a mistake or make a bad decision. He reportedly murdered two men in cold blood then hunted a frightened 10-year-old down in his hiding place and slaughtered him. God damn it. Yeah. He said, I've heard from our attorney general that his confession was cool and matter of fact. Oh, it is. It's too much. It's cool as a cucumber. He's acting like, I stole a Twix bar. Okay, fine. He got me. Yeah. He said, if For more so overtakes him, then he will have to recognize that a life sentence will be just for him. Given the average American life sentence, he now faces 25 years of constant direction. He will eat, sleep, exercise, consort with a bunch of low lives in fend off unwanted advances. The latter may involve mayhem of some kind. Suicide is a possibility. The only productive purposes in his empty existence in the making of remaking of Thane Ormsby. He can read, think, and perhaps write. I expect I'll send him some books. Wow. Fend off advances. That's fucked up. Fend off advances is a way to put it. Another guy is Reverend Lewis Glidden. Yeah. He said, when Ormsby left Frere's residence, this guy offered him help. This Reverend Lewis Glidden of St. Stephen, the martyr Anglican church in Oakland. Glidden told the newspaper that he met Ormsby through Frere and he let Ormsby stay at his home. He said he seemed to be having a hard time. He didn't have a job or any money, so I let him stay with me. Ormsby did some work at his home and at the church and took care of this guy's pets when the man traveled to China in January 2010. So he trusted him to oversee his house. He said that when he was in China, though, he received some disturbing phone calls from the parishioners. What was that? Quote, they told me Thane was having mood swings. He was going from one extreme to the other and the ladies who came in contact with him were afraid of him and what he would do. Jesus, he scared the ladies. Scared and scared all the church ladies. Yeah. I also learned that Thane had taken my car out without permission and traveled to Ellsworth and spent the week there. So by that time, this Glidden said he had already become afraid of Thane, so he had him removed from the property. That was February of this year, of the year of the murder. He said that when he first got to know Ormsby, he seemed like a nice kid, but when Glidden said that he soon saw Ormsby, he seemed to have two personalities, one that was manipulative and deceitful and the other that seemed helpless and in need of support. Sure. He's a con man. He's a fucking con man. He said that while Ormsby was living with him, he tried to get him a job. He would even set up an antique shop in new Sharon for Ormsby to operate. Wow. Filling the store with some of his own property and that of others, he opened a business for him. Run this. Sell this shit for me. Yeah, the business soon folded because Ormsby wouldn't show up for work half the time. So the shop-- He didn't even open the-- He opened his own shop. Wow. At one time, he took the whole month of December off. Well, I mean, yeah, you do. You do. That's what you do. That's what you do when you sell things that someone might get as a gift. You just close down for all of the month where we buy the most shit. It's cold. I don't know. I don't want to go outside. It's over there. It's a long walk. I'll go back in January. I don't know. I'll see you in January. We'll see you about it. I'll think about it. Oh my god. It might be colder, fuck. I'm doing a Santa gig. I got it. It's all month. Glidden said he tried to convince Ormsby to return to school and get his diploma, telling him that he could continue to stay with him rent free while he got his diploma. Wow. He said every time he would suggest that Thane do something he didn't want to, Ormsby became furious. He said money also started to go missing from his home. Uh-oh. And Glidden believes that Thane also took a small amount of money that was set out in the church kitchen as well. Church money. You son of a bitch. Glidden said he also felt Ormsby was doing drugs. Glidden said I was afraid of him. He got angry over little things. Like if you suggested things he didn't want to hear, his eyes would go cold as ice. It would send chills up my spine. It was in China that I decided that I had done as much as I could for him and that the church had done all they could do for him. I hated to do it, but I put him out in the street. I wonder sometimes if I could have prevented these killings if I had just tried a little harder. Well, if you can. Been a little bit more. What Jimmy? Reverend Glidden. Christ like a little bit more is all I'm saying. A little bit more. Yeah. Fucking not blaming this guy. It's not his fault. Maybe if empathy didn't catch you by surprise so much. Yeah, that was the politician. Oh, all right. That's a different guy. But I'm sure empathy is a foreign motion possibly. I don't know anybody think about this guy. So Glidden said that Ormsby became distraught and angry when a girlfriend broke up with him and moved on to another man. Yeah, we do that as 19 year olds do. Yeah, that's none of that has anything to do with it. Did he drink and punch a hole in the drywall too? Oh, no. Yeah, it's normal. Happened to break that little bone next to his pinky before? Yeah, I did. Yeah, I bet he did. He said it was during times like those that I tried to get him to take steps to make his life better. But he just wouldn't help himself. I started to realize that he didn't have control over himself or his anger. Others in the church saw it too. But none of us could believe it when we were really found out what he was capable of. He says he now believes that Thane is a walking monster. He said, I do intend to go see him as a priest when he returns to Maine. I am only doing so because I don't think he's capable of understanding what he's done. It is not the criminal justice system that's going to hold him accountable. I want to help him see that it is God who will ultimately hold him accountable. Is that right? Yeah. So the family of the victims here, especially the Dahan family, still thinks that he's not the only killer. They still say it was more than one. For sure. The father, Robert, said that they asked him, do you believe that Thane acted alone? And he said, that's a tough question for me to answer right now. Is it possible that the way that he was the only person? Yes, but it's hard to believe that my son was so strong. He was such a strong, rugged boy. I know that Ormsby took him by surprise, but it's still hard to believe. It's really not the way it went down. And if there was any blame to deflect, he'd fucking deflect it. Sure, sure. It's the other thing. So I do believe him. And the way he described it, if he walked in and just caught this guy playing a video game, stabbed him with a big knife, it doesn't matter how rugged or strong he is, he stabbed him with a big knife. He was distracted by whatever the fuck Call of Duty he was in. It's hard to halo, whatever. It's hard to fucking snap out of that. And GTA 4 was out. You can't stop once you run into that. Yeah, and you look up, what do you want? And then it's a knife? It's-- oh boy, it's over for you. And plus, he was a strong, rugged boy. That's how he was able to get out of the living room and make it all the way to the fucking road. Right, right. Honestly, it was because he's so strong. But he still is getting attacked by a knife, for Christ's sake. It's a lot. They said that Jake, the brother, said that he didn't believe that Jason ever knew him before. He said Jeff-- and then he also said, Jeff would have said something about a visit by Ormsby, meaning Jeff Ryan. He said, I don't think he's ever been here ever. He said, so no. He said, because Jeff Ryan told him he had gotten into a verbal altercation with Ormsby in June and that Ryan didn't want Ormsby around his daughter. So that's probably the real reason why. There it is, yeah. There it is, because we know he gets-- when he's told that he overloaded the washing machine, he broods on it for hours and then comes back fucking angry. And when you tell a man who gets upset about women that you can't be around her, that's her choice, not yours. This one likes me, God damn it, yeah. Yeah, fuck yeah. They also said they have a hard time believing Robert's drought and that he was threatened by fame. This guy said, that doesn't make sense. If he felt so threatened, why'd he get in a truck with this kid and drive him all the way to New Hampshire? Yeah, no shit. It's another good point, yeah. Drive him to the police station, if you're so fucking scared of him. Here you go, kill me in the police station, parking lot stupid. There you go, yeah. Yeah, get out and run, dummy. So Ormsby told the police that it was a drought who told him that he had to get out of the state after the slayings. The Dehan relative said, Bob knew this guy just killed three people, and yet he took the kid to his own son's home? No way. I don't believe he felt threatened by that guy at all. Now, they find the knife. Oh, where is it? They found the knife because they told him the bog. They fucking found it pretty easily. They metal detected it. Yep, they probably did really easy. And then they had another knife, too, that they found under the front seat of Robert Strauss' truck as well. But that one had red-brown stains on the knife that were consistent with blood. But unlike the murder weapon, this one was a serrated edge. OK, so they were just showing these knives. So he is charged with-- Strauss is now going to be arrested in September 2010 and charged with hindering apprehension-- arson in connection with the truck burning, too. He admits that he can help conceal evidence in the killings. He pleads not guilty and makes bail on that. Father's Day 2011 comes around. And yeah, it's a tough time for the whole family here. They're talking about one of the relatives of the Rions said, I don't want to be anywhere near that guy right now talking about Thane Ormsby. I don't even want to look at him. I can't take it. Sure say, and they don't even want to deal with the fucking court stuff right now. They just don't want anything to do with this guy. And they said, we have 300 people from as far away as Hawaii that are going to release them already, they have these balloons. They're putting these, getting a big memorial, and they're getting these balloons with notes attached to them with expressions of love pinned inside plastic bags to the balloons. Flying up to them, yeah. They said, we have more than 300 people from as far away as Hawaii that are going to release them already. Jesse's baby brother, who is nine months old, is going to release a red heart balloon. Oh. Yeah, he never met that kid. So-- That's so fucked up. That's sad as fuck. That's very sad. So attorneys for Thane, first thing they got to do is try to get those damn pesky statements suppressed that they've made. Those will be damning. That's detrimental. Difficult. There's a lot of D-words about those fucking statements. D-N-A, speaking of D-words is bad. But D-N-A isn't-- there's not as blood at the scene. They don't find their blood at other scenes. The victims, the D-N-A, you could talk it out saying that I stopped by and had a cigarette and a beer. Yeah, that can go away. If the confession's not in. If the confession's in saying I had those there, it's basically, he showed up, hung out with Jeff Ryan for a minute, smoked a beer, had a cigarette, said, oh, these nails. Do you have them all yet? Smoked a beer, drank a cigarette, went into the shed, and then stabbed him up. Stam up, yeah. So yeah, they said that their client's statements to police should not be admitted as evidence during the murder trial. All that, that's not evidence. What he said he did-- It's not a video tape? Yeah. No, to police officers, that's not evidence. Come on, guys. This is evident as it gets. Yeah, come on. Now, through his attorneys here, he filed paperwork seeking to suppress the statements he made, saying his Miranda what rights were violated. How so, because he's kept saying-- Perhaps I need a lawyer now. Yeah, all right. Because he said the word lawyer? That's-- we see this so often in this. So often that if the person said the word lawyer, they'll say, oh, well, I asked the fucking lawyer. I said lawyer, I mean-- Yeah, no shit. And police, they said, had not revealed information on the weapon used in the killings, or whether they had recovered it before they pulled it out in court and were like, boom. I mean, they knew this discovery, the other side knew, but not the public here. So the main state police detective said all three people were stabbed with this combat-style knife. This is the same knife, by the way, that everyone who knew Thane Ormsby said he always carried with him 100% of the time. His fucking knife. Jesus Christ. So they wanted it all thrown out, though. Get it all out of there. They said that Ormsby's attorney focused on points in the confession where he said he would have to plead the fifth to some questions. And at one point said, perhaps I do need a lawyer. And they said, that's what it was. But the prosecution said he never said, I want a fucking lawyer, stop interviewing me. They also question a chief forensic psychologist with the state forensic service who did psychological testing on Ormsby. She characterized him as bright but emotionally immature due to his traumatic and chaotic upbringing. She said he was impulsive and appeared to suffer from episodic depression and despair and generalized anxiety. She told the attorney that someone who is impulsive could blurt out information when interrogated and that depression could cause someone to be fatalistic. So throw out the confession because he's a little sad. - He's got depression. So sometimes when you're depressed, you just admit to shit. - You admit to shit and that's not fair. That's not fair to him. Wow. - You just admit to shit you didn't do. - Yeah. - The fucking saloons on these people, the fuck out of here. So Robert Stroud during all this, he's gonna plead guilty, the guy there. Yes, he first pled not guilty, then was released on bail. Then in June 2010, he was arrested, that was in June 2010. Then in August 2010, he was arrested on a drug offense. - Uh oh. - So now he's got a drug offense and these and so now he's gonna plead guilty to everything. - Okay. - He's registered pleas in the Superior Court and under the plea agreement, he will serve at least two years in prison under these charges, but not more than four years. - Okay. - So yeah, they were very happy his family that he wasn't going to prison forever. So the trial comes around, confession is gonna be in for the Thane Armsby trial. The prosecutor describes how a 10 year old boy coward in fear and a 30 year old man who lived down the road were stabbed because they happened to be there in the way of this guy's intended victim. They said they were killed, it's a quiet farming logging town with about 200 people at this place, just, they ruined it. This young man has sullied the entire region. So they said the Bangor Daily News reported that Armsby's lawyers told the jurors here that he'll seek to put the events into context during the trial. - Please do, put his full confession into context. 'Cause I watched the words come out of his mouth. So put it in my context at least here, I'd love to know. So they said that he killed the one man in the woodshed, the two inside while they were playing video games, stabbed Dahan in the chest before chasing a terrified boy down the hall and into his bedroom where he was stabbed in the back while he cowered in fear. He said that Dahan managed to get outside where he was nearly decapitated when Armsby slashed his throat and stabbed him repeatedly in the back. So the jury is set and they're all ready to go here. The jurors, by the way, they have an interesting run during this trial. Defense makes a motion for a mistrial saying the jury was tainted during the trial. - Yeah, all right, of course. - On Tuesday during this trial, a relative of one of the victims told a juror to hang Armsby. Okay, but the juror was allowed to remain. So then an alternate juror was dismissed the next day after trying to shake the prosecutor's hand and tell him he was doing a good job. You can't do that in the middle of a fucking trial. - Great job, sir. - Hey, you're doing a good job. I'm on your side already. - Maybe that's just a guy that's like, I love prosecutors and I've always wanted to be one. I'm very impressed by your work. - Either that or he's a little league coach and he just wants to tell everybody. - Just giving everybody. - Good eye, way to go after it. Nice hustle, you know what I mean? He's got a- - Yeah, way to be, way to be, way to be, baby. Way to be, way to be out there. That's right, that's right. - I like your attack. - You like it. - Well done, babe. - Nice thrusting with the knife, it's good job. So Armsby's attorney said those cases underscore her contention that Armsby can't get a fair trial here and we should have a mistrial. The judge questioned all the jurors before denying the motion for mistrial and allowing the videotape confession to be shown to the jury. - Okay. - Now, while this is happening, the Albert God debt of Standish, he is a relative of one of the victims. - Uh huh. - And he's the guy who yelled, "I hope you hang the bastard out of juror." - Well done. - He is charged with jury tampering. - Oh no, you can't say that. - You can't do that. - He says, "Shut the fuck up." People think that court is like this fucking joke. - Like it's a warning. Just don't draw. - There's a fucking guy up there with a bangy thing that his will can throw you in jail. - Right. - Or just about anything. - For anything in that room, yeah. - Shut the fuck up in there. - You can't say, "I hope they hang that bastard." - No, no, no, you didn't say, "I hope they hang." There was a juror when he caught the juror coming out and said, "You hang the bastard to the juror." - Oh, you can't do that. - That's a little light. It's a little light for jury tampering. If he got him in the guy's front yard while he was watering his flowers and walked up on him creepily, he was like, "You better hang the bastard." That's jury tampering. What they did in the sopranos, walking up to the guy during Junior's trial and paying for his fucking stuff and going, "Good to have a nice guy like you on there "that's gonna do the right thing." That's jury tampering. This is an angry relative yelling some shit out, I feel like. - In the courtroom, yeah. - If you're there and just, if you're not like winking, "Hope you hang the bastard, you know what I mean?" It's not like that. If it, it's just an angry person screaming angry shit. - And the juror who didn't want any signs that of any bad shit going on here, he said that he went right to the officials. - Oh, to close it right away. - Right to the court and said, "This guy said this and that." The trial was delayed to allow both attorneys time to question the juror. The juror said he could remain impartial just 'cause some guy yelled at him. He's like, "I figured the families of the victims "probably wanted a sky to fucking kill." - They might be, "Oh, what's that?" Yeah, nothing new here. It's not like the judge said that, you know what I mean? - I doubt it's even 50/50 whether or not they're upset. - Yeah, they're probably 100% pissed off at this point. - 90 to 100, somewhere in there. - Oh man, so this god debt is Dahan's cousin and he charged him with a felony, punishable by as much as it does, 10 years in prison. - Jesus. - It's the first time in recent memory that anyone's been charged with jury tampering during a state homicide trial, they said. He was freed on bail and who knows there? So that's wild. Defense, their case is, they call no witnesses. - Really? - No, they cross-examined all the prosecution and said defense rests. - You didn't prove it. - No, I think, yep, we say they didn't prove it. - So the closings, the prosecutor said that the evidence matches his confession perfectly. How would he know these things otherwise? How would he know that the guy was out in a ditch? He said, I did this, that's why you found him in a ditch. But he did read the media accounts first 'cause he said the media said five stabs, so I guess it was five, so that is one thing. They said what he told the detectives and what you heard him say is totally consistent with the evidence. The defendant thought he had silenced all the victims, but now almost two years later, the evidence speaks for Jeffrey Ryan, Jesse Ryan and Jason DeHaan. The prosecutor described the crime as quote, "So shocking in its violence and brutality "that it almost takes your breath away." It really is horrific, it's as bad a scene as you're gonna fucking find. And the defense attorney though, suggested that Robert Strout, here, was the man responsible for the crime. - Really? - Strout was supposed to be called by the prosecution, but then didn't get called by the prosecution. 'Cause we don't need him, we've got a confession. - Yeah, and there's a lot of gray air. He wants you to put him in there and he may fall. - Right, he can fuck our whole thing, yeah. - So the defense says you may have caused a question when Mr. Robert Strout's role in this case. Like what about him? She reminded the jury that two knives had been admitted into evidence and that one of them was found in Strout's car. She's like, what about that? Even though it's serrated and couldn't have been the murder weapon. - I still would have been. - As a prosecutor, I might close saying, I don't know, they can suppose anybody they want, but they didn't call that person and accuse him. - Exactly. - I know who did this. There's a reason I didn't call him. It's because he didn't do it. This guy did. - Yeah, you could say that, yeah. And the defense could have called Robert Strout's witness. - Yeah, right. That's my point. The prosecutor said, yeah. They didn't call him. 'Cause I don't need him, they needed him. They asked, the defense asked the jurors to quote, take into account what influences and pressure may have been brought to bear on Mr. Ormsby. - Yeah, you killed a 10-year-old, I don't care. What are you talking about? - It's got a lot of trouble there. - If he's like a, they're drug dealers and some big drug dealer, you know, talk them into killing a rival drug dealer. You go, yeah, he's just a pawn in this game. You slaughtered a 10-year-old, bro, fuck you, you know? - Yeah. - So the prosecution during their final statement held up the second knife, the one that they're saying could have been the murder weapon. And the prosecutor said, they want you to believe this is the knife. Don't you think if Ms. If Dr. DeWitt had seen something that was a telltale sign of this serrated edge, she would have mentioned it? - It's all a distraction, people. - So the verdict comes in. It is a seven-man, five-woman jury. And he is charged with three counts of murder, one count of arson here is the aim. And he has found guilty of everything. - Wow. - Guilty of it all, he doesn't react at all while it was read. But then he did ask corrections officers to remove him from the courtroom seconds after the jury walk out. He doesn't want to stay in the rest of the day. - The statements, I'm, I'm not interested in them. - Oh man, I don't want to go. The prosecutor said the confession appeared to have been very important to the jury. - Well, no, she-- - Shit, yeah. - It's all the evidence you have, yeah. - A guy said I did it, and that's surprising that they weighed that pretty heavily. - And it matched up perfectly with the evidence and the DNA and everything else. 'Cause yeah, like we said, the DNA wasn't a slam dunk for he's the murderer. He could have just been a guy who had a beer there the day before, or had a beer there left and a murderer came. Yeah, who knows? So for sentencing, he's trying to say he's crazy, insane to be legal, to be legal about the whole thing. The jury's gonna hear evidence as to his state of mind at the time of the crime, and jurors will then be asked to determine whether he was criminally responsible for his actions. So he's found guilty, but he still could be found insane and sent to a mental institution rather than sentenced to prison. So he could be sent to the Riverview Psychiatric Center in Augusta for an undetermined amount of time if they find him to be insane. If they find him guilty and sane, he could face a sentence between 25 years and life in prison on each of the murder charges. Also, he could face up to 30 years in prison if convicted of arson. By the way, judges are allowed to impose life sentences in main under specific circumstances, 'cause the main is a no parole state. Oh, they have no parole there. Really? So you just gotta do your time. Life is reserved for Syria. You can't just kill one person and get life. You get multiple murderers, kids, these are the things you get life for. And one of these you can get life for is multiple murders, which he did. So we'll see what happens. The state says that he's not even remotely psychotic, not even remotely. I wouldn't say psychotic. I would say fucking, just dangerous. Yeah, it's dangerous. And I mean psychotic. - Sure psychotic. - He's psychotic. Not insane. - Insane, yeah. - Exactly, that's what I mean. He's an asshole. He's a con man asshole. - He's a dangerous person. - He's probably crazy, but he's not insane. - There it is, yeah. - He knows what he's doing, yeah. - All too well. - He ran after a dog. - Man after a kid, yeah. - I did this 'cause I didn't want this and this to happen. - Right. - There you go. Not insane. - That separates right and wrong, right there. - Insane is I did this so the Dragon King wouldn't be mad at me. That's insane. - I did it so the Dragon King wouldn't eat them. He was gonna get them. - Yeah, he was gonna fly around their house. - Now he missed three meals, thanks to me. I'm a hero. - Jesus. - Dr. Catherine Thomas testified on behalf of the defense saying that he, you know, he's crazy. She said that he was out of touch with reality, thinking he was ridding the world of a bad man and somehow boosting his resume as an assassin. - Who told him that he's a bad man? - Totally delusional. Nobody did the guy he got in a fucking argument told him not to see his fucking kid anymore. Stay away from my daughter. - You're 20, she's 16 and I think you're a scumbag. Stay away from my fucking daughter. - Get the fuck outta here. - Yeah. - Yeah. - If he could sit and brood about a washing machine comment for hours and then come back pissed off, that tells me that he will sit and he'll bubble and he'll fucking boil. So the Attorney General though said that Orms be, didn't have any type of mental defect or disease, pointing out that he did not suffer from hallucinations, didn't hear voices and his methodical, methodical actions after the murder supported the belief that he was saying as fuck, I believe is the legal term for it. - All right. - They said he knew that he could, you know, the two in the house could turn him into authorities. He had the presence of mind to clean up the crime scene by removing some items that had his fingerprints on them. He also burned his bloody clothing and through the knife he used into the bog. Quote, he was not even remotely psychotic. But yeah, you know, they're saying the other one, the defense says he was abused as a boy which made him delusional. - Okay. - The Deputy Attorney General said that Orms be was fascinated with killing and decided to kill Jeff Ryan because he thought Ryan was a bad man. Quote, he didn't think Jeff Ryan was too nice of a guy. So he put his thoughts into action. He said that his actions may not have been rational, but they didn't meet the legal requirement for an insanity defense. That's the thing, any murder you can look at and you go, well, that's not rational obviously. - Right. - It's not normal, 471 cases of irrationality, you know? - Indeed, and really just bonkers behavior. - Yeah. - Bonkers. - Crazy behavior. - Hard to explain. - Yeah. - But if you just certainly not out of the realm of what humans are capable of doing for a reason-- - Totally. - Of plenty of retribution. - If you take anybody and have somebody watch somebody murder something, you go, do you think that person's crazy? They'd go, fuck yeah that person's crazy. - That's crazy as balls. Did you see him? - That was crazy. - That was crazy, yeah. - That was crazy. But then if they go here, hide this knife for me and start collecting evidence, then they're not so crazy anymore. They weren't just like, ah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's crazy. I don't care, I don't give a shit. I'll tear this person's head on my fucking head, on my head as a hat and walk into the police station to complain that I got a ticket last week. - I don't care anymore. - I don't care anymore. (laughing) - I don't care anymore over the place, I don't care. - I don't care anymore. - I don't care anymore. - With a bare head hat. - No, no, no, no, no. - That's crazy, that's crazy, holy shit. So they ask for, they request that he be sentenced to life in prison for the murders and 30 years on the arson charges. So max out, totally. He tells the judge, quote, "This was such a waste "of human life, a 10 year old child butchered "with two adults who are minding their own business." We can only imagine the horror that Jesse Ryan felt as he ran into that back bedroom in a futile attempt to hide. The defendant decided he wanted to kill someone and he set out on that path and he didn't want to stop. - You bet. - Yeah, no fucking shit, man. Maria Ormsby, he has somebody speak for him and it's his mom. - Wow, shit. - Well, things got mom out there. - What is she gonna say? - Remove from her home at 12 due to physical abuse. - Yeah, what the fuck can she possibly say to redeem this? - Well, she talked about how happy she was when he remembered to send her a note on Mother's Day. - Oh, lady. - That's nice. His grandmother, Janice Wilbur, said that he was a good kid growing up and that she was proud he recently received his high school diploma while in jail on murder charges. His uncle, I mean, your grandma's gonna find something. - They dig deep. - It's a nice boy. - They dig deep. - Yeah, they'll find it. They're looking for something. - Look, I found the nugget of pride. It's right here. He got his diploma. - Hold on. - Let me pause it off quick. It's covered in shit right now. I gotta apologize. Hold on, let me knock that off of there. His uncle, Steven, also took the stand and asked a judge not to sentence him to life in prison. His grandmother said, quote, "We still have hope for him." - Oh, yeah. - Right. - They asked, "Thane, you got anything to say for yourself?" Which you should say something at this point. - Oh, please say something. - He said, "I'm good, thanks." - He said those three words. - No, no, he just said, "No." But I'm just, that was a general mean. - He said, "I'm good, thanks." That would have been terrible. - Drag him out by his shoe strike. - No, no. - Fuck you, man. - I had to throw that in a quote. So the judge says, "Well, I sure got a lot to say." - I'm gonna be exhausted with what I had to say. - He said, "Yes, you were denied social justice in that you were subjected to physical abuse and deprivation in your childhood." That is true. But those circumstances are not enough to mitigate the severity of killing three people, including a small child. Innocent as can be. So he said that the killer had gone to the Ryan home that night with the intent to kill Jeff Ryan and that when he saw two other people there, he didn't abort his plan. He simply expanded it. Yeah, he could have said, "I'll kill him tomorrow when no one's here. I'll come back and check again." Instead, he said, "I'll kill everybody, fuck it." He said that he had no doubt that all three victims experienced conscious pain and suffering before their deaths. He also took into account Jesse Ryan's age and the fact that Thane has shown fucking oogots in the way of remorse for his crime. - Nothing. - Nothing, nothing, nothing, not a bit. He noted that he had done some research and found that only one person in Maine has killed more people in the state. And that is convicted murderer Christian Nielsen, who we did, nor we Maine. That is an episode we did in 2006. So we've done the worst Maine has to offer. Twice. (laughs) Twice. He said, "Mr. Orms be as tied for second place in the annals of mass murder in Maine." - That's not good. - Oof, he said he did take into account testimony from Dr. John Lorenz, a psychologist for the defense who said that Ormsby was subjected, not suggested, to physical abuse and neglected as a child and that he did not receive needed counseling when he was removed from his mother's custody as a 12-year-old. At the time, Lorenz said he had deep-rooted problems and was deeply disturbed. Lorenz also said that Ormsby was psychologically immature at the time of the murders, even though he was 20 years old. But the judge says, "All that said, quote, I must hold him accountable. You, sir, may fuck off life in prison times three." - Oh boy. - Consecutive. - Oh, to 30? - With 15 years for arson as well. - Burn in the truck, you so little bit. - Till you die, for sure, at 15, on top of that. Maine's parole system was abolished in 1976, so Maine Ormsby will spend from 22 eternity in prison. - Oh my God. - He can do 70 years in Detroit. - He fucked up. - He fucked up bad. And if he makes any money in prison, anything at all, it all goes to the funeral expenses of the victims and to pay to the victim's compensation fund. So he can't even make his life even remotely bearable over the next fucking 80 years of fire. - He can't use it to be a sustainable or lucrative for anybody helping him. - He can't get honeybuds. - No, he can't buy a goddamn thing. - You can't buy a ramen noodles. - It is all state-funded garbage forever. - Forever. - He's gonna die in his 50s. - Probably jail food for 30 years. - 30 years of that? - That can't be good. - And jail health care, forget it. - Yeah, he's gotta go. Yeah, he's gonna die, probably. - No teeth. - No teeth. - Definitely not. Robert DeHaan said that that's Jason's father, here, the victim. He said that it felt like a knife had been driven through his own heart when a son he loved deeply was killed. - Why did they do that? - He said if given a choice, I know, well, he meant it. I'm hurt like he felt like he stabbed me instead of him. But normally they would just say, feels like a knife through the heart, this decision. - Sir, you can't, don't, no. - That's our normal thing. But no, he was being very specific. He said my own heart when I heard my son was killed that way. He said that he was given a choice. He would wanna see arms be put to death, but he said arms be would only, but he would one day get what he deserves. Then he said, quote, "May God not have mercy on his soul." Which is, I've never heard anyone say that before. That sounds like the end of a horror movie after they kill Jason and someone goes, "May God not have mercy on his soul." - May God have no mercy. - Wow, that's hardcore, man. Jason's 12-year-old daughter also spoke after her mother spoke and talked about how the kid still has nightmares about her father's death. - Of course. - Has to sleep with the lights on now. - Jesus Christ. - That she had to watch as her daughter cried on the night of the father daughter's dance at school because her father wasn't alive to take her. Jesus fucking Christ, man. She said, "I cry because that means the weekend is coming "and I always spent the weekends with my father." That is fucking terrible. So, he appeals, Thane. In 2013, he appeals his conviction with the main Supreme Court saying that it should be overturned based on several factors, including his rights to an attorney and to remain silent or violated by police and he was denied a change of venue despite prejudicial pretrial publicity, the three P's, and they said, "Get, keep on fucking this." You got about 80. - Stick around, man. - 60, 70 more years left. Second appeal here, his new attorney claims that Ormsby's clearly established fifth amendment rights under the U.S. Constitution were violated by the interrogation of police and trial court and the Supreme Court when they all erred in not suppressing the statements that he made and they said, "No, fuck off still, go ahead." - Still not good enough. - Also that they didn't present Robert Stroud as an alternate suspect. - We don't need to. - He, I mean, he did. He's dead now to Robert Stroud, so it doesn't matter. Yeah, he's dead since then. Yeah, fuck that guy. In 2020, the third time he appealed, his latest appeal in federal court said that at the time of his arrest, he was interviewed by detectives, even after he asked for a lawyer. His current attorney said those interviews went on for three hours. Oh no, not three hours. Talk to fucking, talk to making a murderer there. Talk to Brendan Dassie. - Several days, right? - Look at 18 hours later. Ormsby also contends his original lawyers did not do their jobs correctly when they failed to present Robert Stroud as an alternative suspect and they said, times three, once, twice, three times a fuck face, take a hike. - I don't care about him all. You're out of there. - Fuck it, you're out of there. So that, everybody, his amity mane and one. - What a place. - Hell of a wild twisted tale. What a brutal slaughter this was, man. This is awful. - That guy this past summer, the shooting must be, he got, he did more, right? But he, I mean, he's dead too, but. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - He killed himself in a fucking tractor trailer, but I think he killed more people than three, but then three. - That's so many fucking people in three instances, man. - Three, yeah, they were just saying this was, this may have been the worst of all because a kid's involved and it was all a knife and someone's head was hanging off his body in a ditch, like it's gross, it's all a tax from behind. Grew some horrible horror movie shit here. - Chicken shit stuff. - Chicken shit bullshit from a guy named Thane. So we apologize, whenever we make fun of a name, we'll get a hundred messages from people. My name's Thane, my kid's name's Thane, he's not a bad guy. - There's nobody named Thane. - We get it, we say that, just like there wasn't anybody named Kyler. We have a lot of listeners named Kyler, we didn't realize that. - That's fascinating, yeah. - Fascinating, and people with kids named Kyler. - There's not a single one. - No Thane's in the world except for this one, in jail in Maine, Thane from Maine. - That's right. - The Thane from Maine will remain mainly in the prison planes. - In the penitentiary. - Yeah, exactly. - If you like these shows, get on whatever app you're listening on, and write a review for it. Give us five stars, write a damn review. It helps out a lot. - It does. - I would like to know what condiments you put on a hot dog. That's what you can say in your review. I like the show, and I like mustard and morale-ish on my hot dog, or whatever the fuck you like. I don't care. - So do that, figure it out. Don't put mayonnaise on anything. Number one, that's just terrible. - I've learned that ketchup doesn't go on a hot dog. - It's not the ideal thing, but in certain circumstances you can do it, but it's not the purest thing here. - It's onions and mustard. That's what goes on. - You can do that, but if you do a mixture of ketchup and mustard, you can make it work. - Or if you do a mixture of onions and mustard. - I don't want to crunch on an onion. - Oh God, I love it. - I'll take sauerkraut though, I love. - The tomatoes? - Different thing. No, I don't want a salad. You're describing onions and tomatoes now. That's not a hot dog anymore. - I put onions, tomatoes, and wiggles and mustard. - That's called a salad, Jimmy. Have a salad, cut up. - I like an awesome Irish salad. - Sprinkle it over it. - I love a chicken salad. - Sprinkle the hot dog salad over it. Yeah, in Chicago they do that. Here's this and some celery salt. - I love it. - Cool, take all that shit off of there so I can see if your hot dog's any fucking good. You put shit on there to hide a shit hot dog. - It's a solid point, yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah, the best sauces at chicken places are because your chicken sucks. That's why you got great sauce. 'Cause your chicken's shit. - That's exactly right, yeah. You get a subrett, you just need a little mustard, boom, delicious. Oh, but the Vienna beefs in Chicago are delicious too. - Not that, yeah. - Just keep all the shit off. - It's gotta be a good one. - So give us a review on there, do that. Head over to Shut Up and Give Me Murder dot com. We'll get you number one merch, everything that's up there, new stuff up all the time, including also tickets to live shows. This year, huge slate of live shows all laid out for you. A couple of them are sold out, they're going fast. If you want tickets, get there now. Minneapolis sell this bad boy out. It'll be our biggest show ever. So thank you, Minneapolis for being fucking awesome. Hopefully you will sell that out. Virtual live show, 420, get your tickets available right now at Shut Up and Give Me Murder dot com. 420 virtual live show, just like a regular live show, but in your living room, anywhere in the world. And we're gonna do the whole thing with the pictures and the thing and be just like a live show. So that's Shut Up and Give Me Murder dot com. Patreon dot com slash crime in sports. That's where you get all the bonus material. We pump it out like crazy. I'll tell you that too. Anybody $5 a month or above, a cup of coffee, the best value in podcasting. You're gonna get two new episodes, first of all, a whole big back catalog, hundreds of episodes, then two new ones every other week, one crime in sports, one small town murder, you get it all and they're all interesting. Trust me, this week for crime in sports, backed by popular demand, shit to do with sports, personal ads from the newspapers, from the 80s, 90s, and 2000s, like over any station. - If you journal, we'll find out. We'll find out people trying to sell themselves for love in the newspaper, like they were a fucking 87 Pontiac Grand Prix. It's amazing. - Like they got a dash match for about that. - Yeah, limited miles, new tires, you know what I'm saying? So check that out then for small town murder, we're gonna talk about the Collier brothers who are these very weird brothers who hold up as recluses in this brownstone and eventually they had to cut out half the wall to remove them and all of their weird hoarded things. We'll talk all about that. Patreon.com/crimeandsports. Also listen to our other two shows, "Crime in Sports" and "Your Stupid Opinions." "Your Stupid Opinions" is an hour long and we're into the comedy within 30 seconds and that show is zero excuse to not give it a shot, zero. If you like us at all, if you've ever fucking gotten two seconds of entertainment out of us, you will like this show. Trust us, if-- - Fucking God, we do all this for you, trust us. - I don't care anymore. - That said, Jimmy, hit me with the names of the people who are so fucking wonderful and do care a lot and help us out so much. I wanna hear their names right, God damn now. - This week's, it's gonna produce a sort of Sarah Bajoyi Kamose, Kamose. - For sure. - I'm gonna say, I don't know, it's Kamose maybe. Kathleen Haydn, thank you so much. That was nice, Shelly Roberts and the gals from Gunbarrel, Texas, thank you so much. - You're terrific, Franny and Australia, thank you. I miss you too much. Kyle Norwig, you're such a doll, I can't wait to meet you. You're not one of the bad Kyle's, Norwig. Stan and Diana, I think it's Diana, it may be Dayana in the UK, thank you guys all. - Thank you. - So much for participating in being a part of this and buying me nice things for my birthday. Other producers this week are Angela's Cat Sprinkles who was murdered by Dwight, Andy Zoff, Bigfoot historian Bob Titnes, do you know who that is? I don't know who that is, I do that person. Is that, are we supposed to know who that is? - I don't know if that's a reference to something we're not getting or anything. - And Andy Zoff is a reference to something else, I don't know, but I do know that Angela's Cat is from the office. Andy might be from the office also, who knows? Peyton Meadows, Mo Gibbs, Janice Hill, Scarlett Horbie's the third and her brother Rusty, Alicia Renee, Ace Handwint, you gotta talk about her. She's wonderful. Sandy Beck, Kim with no last name, the calls, they calls me Teddy Burr, Alaina Darcher, Jessica Ogden, Rachel Whitehead, Alec Abelman, Abel Mann, Lady Amaltheia, Amaltheia, Amaltheia, that's what it is. Amy Scott, Julie Porche, Porche, SVB, Amanda Three, Katie Hayes, Marty Colfield, yep, Emily Lang Matt with no last name, Delta Don, Christopher Phillips, Porche, Porche, Wolford, Wolford, Chris with no last name, Peyton Nolan, Carly Abbott, Raymond Bluebell, Kelly Denton, Donna with no last name, Tilar with no last name, no, it's Tilar R, Tilar, Tyler, might be Tyler, T-I-L-A-R, that's not Tyler, is it? Fuck it, Tilar, Tilar, Tilar? - It could be Tyler, what's Pilar is with a P, right? - Yeah, yeah, that's it, I guess. - If it's Tyler, beat your mother to death. - Or your father, whoever did that to you. - LB, Nart Sharker, what is this? Naff Zinger, Naff Figer, Naff Figer. Kendall Osborne, Kyle F, there's another good Kyle, Rebecca McElhenny, I like the Tabasco sauce, the Obstynet, Mackle Haney, back Elle Haney, yes. - Mackle Haney. - Is that how it's out? - Oh, and Rob Mack, that's right. - But isn't that the makers of Tabasco, McElhenny, Mackle Haney? - Beats the shit out of me. - I think that's the owners of Tabasco. - Sure. - The Obstynet daughter, Obstynet, Obstynet, yeah. - Give us that Tabasco money. - All right, Maria Jones, Noel Delaforett, Ava Erlea, Nicole Hennessey, Corey with no last name, Brett Ross, Steve Tidwell, Travis, Thomas, George, One Ball Wonder, Blake, Cindy English, Rebecca Buchanan, Shannon McKinley, Scott Elbert, Steven Cook, Ashley Proctor, Amanda Sikorsky, Courtney Schultz, Devin, Breshear, Chad Litzinger, Grace Poughley, Ephill, Eiffel, I don't know. Don Abram, Abram, Abromo, hi to you with no last name, James Gonzalez, Jamie Byrne, SD, the letters S and D, like a card, Amber Carter, M. Williams, Talonda Robinson, Michael Belcher, Sam Thompson, Ashley Graham, Ray Stebens, Adrian Aquino, Aaron with the letter A. - I'm not sorry, Brittany, Brittany Drawhorn, Toriana, Toriana Munari, Dorothy Anne Peers, Joseph Johnson, Aaron, Aaron P., Carl Wenzel, Ben Tuttle, Luke, Luke Hilton, Craven Morehead, all right. Natalia Destin, Sam Grissafe, Melissa Pearson, Layton with no last name, Jim and Kim Cody, Mary Zart, Hannah Baiment, Bement, John Barlow, Cloud 7A, James with no last name, Andy Beacham, Shane Whitaker, Ethan Rye, what is this, Rhea, Rhea Marsh, Kyle Pancake, I doubt it, Kelly Campbell, Tracy Thomas, Jim Jam, Sean Slade, Jill, Jill Fister, Casey with no last name, Casey Whitten, that's two different cases, spelled different ways, that's crazy. - That's so much for me. - Casey, Casey Whitten and Cassie, all donated right in a row, that's unbelievable. - Wow, you guys are thinking that on purpose, the core team. - It's truly, that's fucking, that's never happened. - Stop confusing us. - Liz with no last name, Melissa V, Ronnie Grub, Megan Wright, Jesse with no last name, Cody Butler, Jody Boyer, what, Cody and Joe? - Cody and Jody. - Butler and Boyer. - It's true. - What's happening? - Kathy Margolese, Megan Org, Jack Miller, Sinead Birmingham, Morgan Thomas, Janelle Borgstrom, Leanne Corbett, Andy Moth, Juan, Susquito, David Wilbert, Lilac Lavender, Tyler Weith, Robert Poe, Casey Org, Jada Lynn, Skyler with no last name, Miss Brit, Mel Shoebridge, Kimmy Wolf, Nicholas Hobbs, James with no last name, Robin Ragsdale, Sean with no last name, Emily Satori, Johnny Luff, Tracy with no last name, Jesse Marie, Amy Frick, Kevin, Childs Scott Frank, Jenny Remar, H, I'm not saying Remmer, I won't say Remmer, H, M, Reddon, Nikki with no last name, Avriana Oli, Avriana, only, Sean Campbell, Salem Golden, Steve Cecil, Aidan Nguyen, Molly with no last name, Daniel Nammyslaw, what, Johnny Parks, Lauren Nogel, not going back, Shannon K, Stephen Scattergood, Dead World, Christopher Cardona, Sarah Sauer's Stone, Stephanie Thompson, Laney with no last name, Savage Randy, oh I see what you did, Jasmine Goodman, Damon Weidern, Weidern, Weidern Saul, Jacob R. Christie Duffin, Selena with no last name, Rhonda with no last name, Jessica Nelson, Chelsea B, Stephanie Robinson, Dallas White, Nikki with no last name, Melody Rhett, Wright, Cambria White Walker, Wyatt Walker, got it, Shannon Wellichico, Letchco, Brian DuChette, Justin Griggs, Jen, Jerry, Jerry Frampton, and all of our patrons, you're fucking incredible. - Thank you so much everybody, you fantastic, wonderful people, we do appreciate everything you do for us and we would never come into your home and slaughter you and your children ever, never once. So keep hanging out with us, keep doing this, follow us on social media, it's @smalltownmurder on Instagram, and you'll find us on there at smalltownpot on Facebook, you wanna find either of us on social media, the dropdown menu is on our website, shut up and give me murder, and I'm finally doing Instagram now, so I gave up on Twitter, so I gotta, I have to fucking ditch that. - It's so much, it's so much. - Built up a whole thing over there, now I gotta do it over here, so lots of fun with that shit. Yay, woo hoo, anyway, keep doing that, keep hanging with us, I hope you care some more, and until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. - I don't care anymore. (upbeat music) - Hey, prime members, you can listen to smalltown murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com/survey. - If you don't know when Crystal Pepsi was discontinued, what was in Al Capone's vault, or which famous meteorologist is Lenny Kravitz's second cousin, then you haven't spent enough time on Wikipedia. But that's okay, I am here for you. I'm Darcy Carden, and I'm inviting you to listen to my new podcast, Wikihull, from Smart List Media. Discover the craziest rabbit holes on Wikipedia with me and my funny friends, as we bring the cyber frontier directly to your tympanic membrane. And if you listen to my podcast, you'll learn that that's the sciencey term for eardrum. We embark on a hyperlink rollercoaster as we start out on a Wikipedia page and go from link to link to link to link. Careening through trivia, oddities, and unexpected connections until we collectively shout, "How the hell did we get here?" Follow Wikihull on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Wikihull ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. (keyboard clicking)
