Gemara Markings Daf Yomi
Bava Metzia 8b
Chassamud-alav on the bottom line, quoting from the mission that we had back in Dafbez, Ha'yushnaim Raikrin. If there were two people writing, writing on the animal, Amravyaisav, underline his name, Amarly Rav-Yehuda, and I circled Rav-Yehuda. Really, I would have liked the printer to put that line on the first line of the next time, but in an event, Cessar-Yehusav, that this is what Ravyaisav told him. Now, Rav-Yehuda was a student of Rav and Schmuel, and Rav-Yehuda said, "Chamis Mine Demar Schmuel," I put it back from our Schmuel, Tarti, he says, "I heard from Schmuel two things. Number one, Rahov, that concept of a human being, plopped up on top of animal, not necessarily the animal's moving, but on the animal, writing, so to speak, even the animal's not moving, and two, manhig leading. That doesn't necessarily mean holding the reins. They can be walking in front of that, can be walking behind of that, can giving a patch on the tochus with a stick. That could be given a little kick. Those two things, Khad-Kani, Vihad-Lai-Kani, one of them acquires, one of them doesn't acquire, I guess, if there's two parties. Kamma, and here's the main point, I dot underline the next four words. V'Loyad-Dana, Hemi-Nahi-Hu, I says, "Rav-Yehusav," quoting what Rav-Yehuda said in the name of Shmool, "I don't know which is which." Okay, let's try to figure it out. Now, Hehi-Dami, how now, or how so, question mark. Now, I put a number one in the margin and circled it, and four lines later, first one in the line is Ibaya, I put a number two. Let's try to figure out what the case is. Ilema, if you want to say the case is, Rahov-Lai-Hu-Day, Kama, Umanhig-Lai-Hu-Day. Let's say, just somebody who is plopped up on top of the animal, and someone else comes along, and from the outside, and grabs it away in front of it, and does a mashihe to acquire it, or somebody who's leading the animal, and someone else comes along and does a mashihe to acquire it. Shmool said in one of those two that actually it would not be Kaina, the one who was doing whatever they were doing before the grabber came, and the grabber would be the one who acquired it, and the question is, which one? So, if you want to say that's the issue that Rahov-Lai-Hu-Day, just somebody who was plopped on top of the animal, or Manehig-Lai-Hu-Day, just someone was leading the animal, well, Manehig-Lai-Hu-Day. Are you really going to tell me that leading the animal, which is basically mashihe, causing the animal to move? Me, Ik-A-Manda, I'm a Lai-Kani, is there anyone who would say that that would not be the one who was considered the one who would acquire it? Ela, Ik-A-Maimar de Lai-Kani, if there's anyone to say, like it's obvious, of those two, Rahov-Lai-Hu-Day, it's got to be the guy who's just plopped up on top of the animal. Again, the Rahov usually means that somebody's on top, and the animal's moving, but here, clearly, the animal is not moving, because it was moving, that would definitely be his. Ela, so I squiggle and roundie Ela. This is the second approach. It's got to be more that the issue is Rahov-Bemak-A-Manehig. There's somebody who's riding it, and somebody who is leading it, leading it from behind, from in front, but leading it. Ibi-Lai-Hu, that was the issue that Udo was unsure about. My, what do we say? A, oh, don't we be? A, do we say when those two go up against each other? A, Rahov-Lai-Hu-Day, if the guy is riding on it, is the stronger one, the hot toughest, but he's actually, like, grasped onto the animal. He's physically on the animal. O-Dil, my squiggle and roundie, O-Dil, O-Dil-Manehig-A-Manehig-A-Dif, the one who is causing the animal to move, sort of, like, leading it to Az-Lamak, must say, maybe he's considered the stronger one who shayate the animal, because it, basically, the animal's moving because of that person. Well, Amar-A-Vyasif, I half-boxed Ra-Vyasif, Amar-Lai-Ravi-Huda, and I, sorry, Ravi-Huda, Nexi-An-An, well, let's look into this. It's not. We have a mission in Misaka's Qilayim. One of the forbidden things to mix is working animals together, like an ox and a donkey. That would be a Qilayim issue, be a problem. Let's see the following mission. It goes for two lines in a word. Hamanik, I squiggle and roundie, Hamanik, somebody who is leading the two of them together. Again, it could be he's walking in front of the two of them. They're following them. He's walking behind them. He's giving them patches with a stick on the tochus, but he's causing them both to move. Seivigasar-Baiim, he gets malchus, he's over the dar-Aisei, sir, of you shall not work the the ox and donkey together. Come, the Ha'yoshave Bikar-Ain, I squiggle and round you, I should Bikar-Ain, and I think the Ra'ch, who's on the side of the page here, points to that most clearly, that sitting in a cart being pulled by the animal is basically like riding on the animal. It doesn't make much difference to riding on the animal, or you're attached to something that the animal is pulling. But Ha'yoshave Bikar-Ain, also, if you have the ox and the Ha'yoshave Bikar-Ain, Seivigasar-Baiim that violates the dar-Aisei, sir, and when we get malchus for that, Kama-Ribby-Mayer, who we boxed, he says, well, hold on a second here, Ribby-Mayer-Poder, he says that that case would be putter, Si-Yoshave Bikar-Ain. You're just sitting in the cart that's attached to the animal, that it would be putter for that. Now, that's the end of the take source the way some have it printed. Shmuel prefer to switch the shittas, connect to him. He said, Shmuel, I swear to the fact that Shmuel himself switched Bikar-Ain, and he made it not Ribby-Mayer is the final shitta, but rather the Ha'yoshave Bikar-Ain made the Ha'yoshave Bikar-Ain, which is tantamount to saying that we pask and like that opinion. When there's a shitta Si-Yoshave, whoever it might be, even Ribby-Mayer versus Shitta Shra-Ain, the majority of the time to say that what is correct is that which the Ha'yoshave-Ain say, so if there's a opinion which is correct, you sort of turn that into the Ha'yoshave. So the fact that it's the Ha'yoshave Bikar-Ain, well, Shmuel, it's pretty clear from there, and I dot-underline these four words, rakhov lechuday lei-kani, that clearly just plopping up a person, plopping himself up in top of the animal will not be kina, kama connector vakol shikain, rakhov lea-kam-Ain, and all the more so if you're trying to be rakhov versus a mani, rakhov itself won't be kina, but definitely if it's been mukkain mani. I started at brackets over here and the brackets go down till about seven eight lines before the end of the Ahmud, first word on the line is delick the and that's where the brackets end. Now after the brackets, we'll go back to the brackets momentarily, we're going to have a number of teneic sources, I believe four, and they're either going to be, first let's be a question ravihuda, then a support, then another question, then another question will come to a conclusion. So let's pre-triangle that. The first word on the line about eight lines before the end of the Gomara is second word on the line is mace, but I put a triangle on that pointing up. One line before the bottom, in other words, not the last line, but the one above it, the second word is a tashm I put a upside down triangle on that tashmah, on tes amud alif. About 15 lines down, last word on the line is rakhov, the third to last term is a tashmah, I put a triangle pointing up on that, that would be the third one, and about nine lines from the bottom of tes amud alif, last terminal on is tashmah, I put a triangle pointing up, that would be the fourth. So before we get to any of those, let's see what's in the brackets. In the brackets, amole a baye, the reviosafe. So reviosif would have been the one marshalling the opinions of schmuel and ravihuda, up till now, says a baye, the student a reviosif to reviosif, amole a baye, the reviosif. With all due respect, rabbi, he says, ha, zimn and sagin. There were many times amart alan that you said to us regarding this exact same issue. Nexionon, let us look into it. Valaya, amart alan, mishmah, dravihuda. You never told us that you were saying it in the name of ravihuda. What's going on? Well, amole, says reviosa back to a baye. Ibra, like, that is true, that ravihuda was the one who said to me, now that I think about it, that let us look into it, and I remember that I said to him that dachrananami, like I remember also, oh no, like jogging my memory, de amre lei, that I said to him, hehihi poshit. Now, this is like about a four-line issue that a baye had that he raised with reviosif. Hehihi poshit mah rakhov, meyoshiv. How can you be concluding what we want us to know about rakhov, one who's riding on top of the animal, from yoshay, from the one who's sitting in a cart that's being drawn by the animal. Question mark kamba. Yoshay, if you're just sitting in the cart, low, tough, it's been my series on holding on to the the rains, whereas rakhov, the mosere, I called it the rains. Rashi calls it an old French word, it's the bridal. It's a thing basically around the animal's head that you would sort of like hold on to delete the animal, and don't know if it's actually the rains, but it's that thing. So, um, a yoshay, the guy in the cart is not holding on to that, whereas a rakhov, because riding on the animal, tough as the mosere, is holding on to it. van Marlien, Rav Yuhuda, um, said to me, um, Rav uchmuel, the amri, travayu, both Rav and schmuel, who often disagree, but they agreed here, mosere, loy, kani, that a, uh, just holding on to that headpiece, the animal is not a means of acquisition. That's the first lushion, ekadamri, so we went on the ekadamri, put a B in the margin, amlea by the reviosa, if this is a take too. Hehi pashit maw rakhov miyoshe, how can you conclude the, uh, issue that we had, we wanted to talk about rakhov from someone who was sitting in a cart. Yoshay, the guy sitting in the cart, which is, uh, potentially attached to be pulled by the animal, low tough as the mosere is not holding on to the, the bridle of the animal, whereas rakhov, the one who's like on the back of the animal, that's what he holds on to, tough as the mosere, amlea. So, this is back with me, I said to him, bye yay, hachitana edi, this is the tinex horse that edi taught, it's all of three words, moiseira loi kani, I put that in a box and that's what it is, the moseira is not going to be kina, it marnami was also stated on an amoreic level, amre paboy, amre afuna, a and b, moseira mejavere kana, if you have two people, allen bob and all hands over, like in a sail, and bob holds on to the moseira that will work to be, uh, for bob to be kina, however, b, if it's a mitzia, if it's, let's say, a lost animal, buenixia gerifte convert, who wasn't married, had no descendants, who dropped dead, his assets, lo kani, it would not work. We'll see a little bit of a reason why, my luschin moseira, why is that, that headpiece, the bridle that the, um, animal has, uh, called the moseira, ama rava edi, as burly, well, edi, explain it to me, kadam ha, mosere davar lehavere, and it's basically like, if al gives something to bob, no better way for al to transfer it to bob than to actually hand it to bob, and therefore, bishlum, it makes sense, now, this is not a question, often bishlumma starts question, this is just the conclusion of the issue, mejavere kani, if I am walking along and someone I know says heishmul, take this, and he hands it to me, that, that's fine, that's how it'll work, that's like moseira, de kam master lehavere was handed to me by my friend, or handed to him by his friend, ella mitzia, unixia gare, who is the one who's handy, there is no one, unixia by definition is a lost item, it's just out there, no one has it, mixia gare, there's no one who owns it, man kam master leh de ligni, who is there, so to speak, to be giving it over to the one who gets it, that you should say that it would acquire, that's why it won't work, that's the end of the bracketed section, mejavere, so back to the more general issue, which is going to be what rava edi huda had said, that rava edi, un lon is not kayna really, mace fi, so we quote, that's right, our mishna, mishna dakan dafbeis, our mishna had shnayim, raikmana dabbebehemo, when two people show up and they're both riding, they're both like on the back of the animal, or one is riding, said the mishna as it continued, and one is money it, they split it, now if they're splitting it, then rava, who definitely is, a means of being kayna ed, who then though would be the author of that, mishna, money, colin, says the good one, elaym if you want to say that's authored by rava edi mayer, well that's very hard to imagine, we had rava edi mayer above, and yo shnayim kani, if just sitting in a cart is enough to be kona all the more so, when you're like propped up on the back of the animal, rava edi huda, la rava, should we not say that, who is it, it's the rava naan, ushmami na, this is what the rava edi huda apparently hold, rava edi huda is, yes kani, i dot underline rakhofkani, that would be a question of rava edi huda seemed to conclude that rakhof is not kani, well not really a question of rava edi huda, because hakama is kina, what's the case in our mishna, it's a little bit different in our case, that's be manheg beroglov, where he is using his legs to lead the animal, the one who's riding isn't just like plopped up like a statue, on top he sees using his legs, he gives him like a good kick into the side of the animal, and that's why the animal is moving along, well one second, if that's what he's doing, ihakhi, then he turns into a manheg, because he's basically leading the animal by giving it a kick, so isn't that already mentioned, no, because he's actually tre gavni manheg, there's two types of manheg, there is that type, and the regular type, where you're walking in front of back of the animal mouth, tell me you might have thought that rava edi huda is odd if that actually the guy is up on top of the back of the animal, and giving it a little kick in the side to get it going is actually preferable, not only is he kind of leading it, he's also like on top of the actual animal, kamashmalan, that's the thittish, that even though it seems like a pretty strong claim, they split it, if the other guy is actually manheg, the other guy who's manheg is also equally as valid, and they split, that would be the thittish of the mission, well tashmal, this is the only, in our series of four tashmas, that has the upside down triangle, because this seemingly is going to be a support for rava edi huda said, so tashma, my box office price, it goes to the end of the second line on tesamadal offense starts here, if you have two people, shnayim shayim shayim shayim, both alan bob are doing a mashiheg pulling the camel, or manheg in bechamor, or both of them are being manheg, the kamor, kamor, shahayim shayim shayim shayim shayim, one of them is pulling, and the other one is leading, bimidazois, and we'll say exactly what that term means, but like in this way, kani, they would be konnayim, rebhi yuhuda, who he boxed, rebhi yuhuda imer, loi yum, lo, kana, oh no, you're not going to clean it, achahe, you have to have the mashiheg which is the normal way to do with the camel, has to be with the gammal, not a hanhaga, and a hanhaga by the kamor, because the normal way to do a kamor is with a hanhaga. Okay, that's the end of the snake source, why are we bringing in force of the kamor focuses our attention, katani mihas, by the way, we're going to have two lishinas of this point that the kamor is bringing out, one is here, I put an a in the margin and circled it, and about eight nine lines later, first word on the line is the is, I put a b in the margin and circled, that. So here's the first lushin, lushinay, katani miha, what do we want to focus on, right angles, oh shahaya echad moshif echad manig, or one of them is pulling, and one of them is being manig leading the animal. Now, that sounds like two of the possible three ways, let's make a duke, moshif al manig, in those are different ways to possibly acquire the animal, aval rakhov, lo, I done an alan rakhov, lo, just riding on it apparently wouldn't work, and hey, that would be great for avi huda, who said riding alone, rakhov being, I would say riding each time, sitting up on top of the back of the animal wouldn't be good enough to be a support for avi huda, should we say that? No, who I did in the truth is, da filu rakhov, even sitting up on the back of the animal would work, vahatik tani, why then are the examples taught only as moshik and manig, la fuke to exclude, to come to the exclusion of midiraviyuhuda, da amar, raviyuhuda sizat shahaya meshiha begamal, which is some, he's in the top line of the sambud, the hanhagavikhaamor, the only way that it works, raviyuhuda, is meshiha begamal, nah nah nah gavadhaamal, and hanhagavadhaamor, not meshiha begamor, the hinish would become a kamashman connector, da filu ipra, nami kani, the truth is, even if you do the opposite, it'll also work. Well, one second, if you could do the opposite with either one, i haqi, then the first opinion in that tinex verse could have been taught more straightforward, more succinctly, la arveen who join the cases together with us, you know, and teach them like this, and this is a suggestion for the next line in a word of what these tinex verse should have said. I put the right angle in over here, shnayim, two people, shahaya, either moshrin or manhegan, kama, ben begamal, whether it's a camel, ben begamor, that would have been very straightforward, and even less words. Well, the reason it couldn't teach you that way is because there's actually ikahad-sa, there's one of those ways, dilokhana, that actually doesn't work, and it's not clear which one it is, but there's one that doesn't, ikadamir, those who say, it's the moshihr by the kamor that doesn't work, ikadamir, there are those who say, it's the hanhaqah by the gamal, but that's why they couldn't just lob all the animals together, and all the ways of acquiring it, because actually one of them wouldn't work. This is the beelush, and it's demusive, misei, for those who actually bring this point out from the later part, in other words, the first three words on this page, quote, ben mida zu kana, in this way, this method is how it would be kind of, okay, let's analyze that, ben mida zu this way, lemote mai, what would it be coming to, exclude? Lava, should we not say that's coming, lemote ute rakhov, I don't know lemote rakhov, again, that would, that would seemingly be a good support for Raviud, that rakhov doesn't work. Well, no, lemote, what it's coming to be in my is ipravi opposite way, in other words, if you do the opposite type of acquisition with the other animal, it won't work. Well, that sounds very much like what Raviud has said, i hai hai no Raviud, that's the next tonus opinion in the teneic source. Well, ikabena, I don't know there would actually be a difference between them, sad echa de lokani, the difference would be there's one way that it doesn't work, and it's not clear which one it is, istamir, those who say, misei habe khamor is the one that doesn't work, but istamir, those who say, it's an hagapagamo, that does not work. We'll pause it here for now.