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Police Off The Cuff/Real Crime Stories
Ray Tierney interviewed discusses Gilgo Beach case.
In a recent interview with WPIX Suffolk County District Attorney Ray Tierney reiterates that he believes that Rex Heuermann acted alone. He stated that none of the family members are involved and there is no reason to believe so. In addition the investigation is continuing and there could be new revelations as new evidence is discovered.
- Duration:
- 1h 15m
- Broadcast on:
- 11 Jul 2024
- Audio Format:
- mp3
"My dad works in B2B marketing. "He came by my school for career day "and said he was a big row as man. "Then he told everyone how much he loved "calculating his return on ad spend. "My friends still laughing at me to this day." - Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to linkedin.com/results to claim your credit. That's linkedin.com/results. Terms and conditions apply. Linked in, the place to be, to be. (upbeat music) - Hello everyone, and welcome to "Police of the Cuff" Real Crime Stories. I'm your host, the tired NYPD Sergeant Bill Cannon, a 27-year veteran of the NYPD. You know, of recent time, Ray Tierney, the Suffolk County District Attorney, hasn't really made himself available to the media. And today, he decided, I guess it's the one year anniversary of the arrest of Rex human to appear on TV. And what is new in the case? Well, some of the things that he could talk about, of course, is the question that was raised very recently by attorney John Ray in regards to potential family members being involved in this Gilgal Beach serial killer case. And Ray Tierney reiterates that they have no evidence of that whatsoever. In fact, he restates that every time Rex human struck every time he committed a murder, his family was out of town, either in another country or in another state. And that is one of the big reasons that he gives that they're not involved, then Rex human absolutely acted alone. One of the obviously scary things was the recent press conference when two more victims were added to the list. And they are the women you see on the screen right now, Jessica Taylor and Sandra Castilla. And in the case of Sandra Castilla, this gets really concerning for everyone on Long Island, and for everyone that has ever, or is still investigating these cases. 'Cause the case of Sandra Castilla goes back to 1993. And the interesting thing about that, the technology that we all should be proud of our criminal justice scientists that were able to put this evidence together and finding two hairs that were tested through the science of mitochondrial DNA identified as belonging to Rex human and to Rex humans ex-wife. The second one was of Jessica Taylor and that case goes back to 2003. And her body was course found in Manaville. And we've had all those pictures of Rex human shooting at a firing range out in Manaville. Something that we didn't know about until very recently. So what does this mean also to the defense of Rex human? Does anyone believe Michael Brown when he says Rex human maintains his innocence? He maintains that he had nothing to do with this. Is there a single person that believes that? And how about the fact that they went back to the home of Rex human for a second search warrant? No doubt having something to do with the searches they were doing out in Manaville. Also, we'll hear Ray Tierney talk about how much of the evidence they have is digital and the evidence is encrypted which therefore makes it very time consuming and to uncover this evidence. So every day that they're able to break these codes they're able to collect new evidence in regards to these cases. And of course, who you see up on the screen there is the Gilgo for Meghan Waterman. Melissa Barteleme, Amber Castello, and Maureen Brainard Bonds. And now, of course, we have it. There's a better picture of Maureen Brainard Bonds, Melissa Barteleme, Meghan Waterman and Amber Castello. Now with two more victims headed to the list, of course, this investigation is expanding and will not be shut down probably ever unless after Rex Human goes to trial and if he in fact gets convicted, maybe at that point they'll get him to come clean and to talk. But until that point he's maintaining his innocence and he's not speaking at all about this case. So folks, hold on to your hats, hold on to your wig, hold on to your children, hold on to your service dog, hold on to your neighbors 'cause you're about to enter true crime from a police perspective. You're about to enter the off the cuff zone. You're about to enter the police off the cuff zone. (dramatic music) (car engine roaring) (dramatic music) (car engine roaring) (dramatic music) (car engine roaring) - They asked me some common sense. (car engine roaring) - We still don't know before the trailer. (dramatic music) (car engine roaring) (dramatic music) (car engine roaring) (dramatic music) (car engine roaring) (dramatic music) - So folks, other than the last press conference that Ray Tierney gave, he's pretty much hasn't been available to the media. He hasn't been speaking. And that differs a great deal from the beginning of this case when it seemed like every other day, he was talking to some news person. But anyway, here's WPIX and they do an interview with Ray Tierney today. And this is the one year anniversary of Rex Heumann's arrest. - Rex Heumann is due back in Suffolk County Court in Riverhead later this month. Saturday marks one year since the arrest of the 60 year old architect from Massapequa Long Island. He's been charged with murdering and mutilating six women. - Just last month, investigators recovered additional evidence from Heumann's home, which could lead to even more charges. And joining us this morning, it's up to County District Attorney Ray Tierney to give us the latest updates on this very case. So D.A Tierney, great to have you here this morning again. Thanks for joining us. - Thank you. - So let's talk about this. It remains a very active investigation, right? And as we saw what investigators returned to the Heumann home back in May, there was once again this massive search inside the home. So what can you tell us was found and why you decide to go back in that second time? - So there was a number of investigative steps that we felt we needed to take. Chief among those were the search out east, which we did with the dogs and a number of other agencies, as well as going back into the house. We've again, we're collecting a lot of evidence. We're going through that evidence. A lot of that evidence is going to be trace evidence, blood DNA, that type of stuff, which we're searching for. So we'll just have to wait for the forensic scientists to go through that evidence. And among the evidence that we had previously found, which caused us to do that was chief among them was the planning document, which we allege is a document where the defendant invents his intent to murder the six charged crimes. - And based on that document, we learned serious disturbing details of how he was making notes basically on how he wanted to kill again and what he would change and what he would do to the women that he was allegedly torturing. Based on that document and what else you found in that house, do you change your stance on what you believe his estranged wife knew? - No, I think that if there's one thing that's been consistent throughout the case is that there's no evidence that the defendant active in concert with anyone else, all of these crimes appear to have been committed by him and him alone. In addition, when you look at all of the six charged murders, we have been able to establish that the wife and the family were out of town when these incidents occurred. So. - So very interesting, right? Because we, all of us, I think with great interest watch the most recent press conference with attorney John Ray. And alongside him was serial killer expert, Dr. Gary Bukato, very wonderful man, brilliant. He's really a learned man, one of the premier experts on serial killers in the nation. And some of the evidence that John Ray has presented, is it in fact evidence or is it hearsay? And if we believe what district attorney Ray Tierney is saying right now, then what attorney John Ray is presenting is not evidence at all. And we saw all the disturbing photos we saw John Ray try to implicate Rex Uemann's daughter. He also tried at another time implicate Asa Ella up his wife. So does this slam the door as far as law enforcement is concerned with implicating anyone else you heard Ray Tierney say though, he absolutely acted alone. And there's no one else involved in this case. So taking it from law enforcement, we have to go with what Ray Tierney just told us in this interview. Which would give the defendant unfettered time to commit these acts. - You know, Uemann was initially charged with the deaths of those Gilgo 4, right? That was the first press conference you had about a year ago. But since then he's been charged with two more. And now you're back there looking for more evidence, right? We know about the blueprint. And the big question here is could there be, since there were a lot of other murders along Long Island, how many more potential victims could be tied to Uemann? What are you looking at here? - Yeah, so as prosecutors, you know, we don't talk about what we think happened. We talked about what we could prove and we speak through indictment. So as you said, initially he was charged with three out of the four Gilgo 4. Later he was charged with the murder of Brainard Barnes, the fourth victim in that group. And then subsequent to that, he has been charged with Sandra Castilla and Jessica Taylor. And as we've said all along, the investigation is evolving. It originated with the Gilgo 4. Now it's moved beyond, you know, and to not only the other, other bodies on Gilgo, but as well as other bodies in Suffolk County. And I think the latest indictment events is that because Sandra Castilla was not on Gilgo where a portion of Jessica Taylor's remains were found. - So you're saying it is possible that there could be potentially more victims tied to him as the case progresses? - Where again, we're gonna keep on working. There are, the investigation is a large sprawling in both scope and time and we're gonna work through it. And we won't have any comment until we're able to, if we're able to lodge additional charges. - Are you looking at Rex Heerman as a potential suspect in the bodies that were found in Mannerville near the Brookhaven lab? - You know, again, the way we look at cases is we start from the prime scene and we work our way back. We don't come in with any preconceived ideas about who may or may not have done it. So each body is a different prime scene. We start at that crime scene and we work our way out. And we don't talk about it until we're ready to make a charge. - So, you know, he's connecting things, obviously, Ray Tunney's very careful, very measured in what he's saying. But they're not gonna let the cat out of the bag until they have forensic evidence connecting Rex Heumann to a body. Alan G from the chat just asked the question, did they ever disclose what was found in his two rented storage units? Rex Heumann is another Joel Rifkin, monsters. Alan G, no, they have not. They have not, the only time they disclose evidence is if the evidence comes back and helps them establish probable cause. What, the whole reason for going back to that second warrant at the, at Rex Heumann's home in Mass Peekwapok was some of the digital evidence had told them some scary things. So specifically the planning document, they found that they were able to unencrypted and it was a word document. So when you think of how scary that is that the planning document, they were able to uncover that. Many years, or excuse me, later on in the investigation. So Heumann was arrested in July 2023 as we know, right? And he was Midtown Manhattan office and eventually charged with the murders of three women whose bodies were discovered. Bounds with belts were taken wrapped in burlap along a stretch of Long Island's Gilgo Beach in 2010. He was later charged in January 2024 in the death of a fourth woman. And I believe that was Maureen Brainard Barnes. They didn't have enough initially to charge him with that case. Those victims, Melissa Barteleme, Megan Waterman and Boccastello and Maureen Brainard Barnes became known as the Gilgo 4. Heumann pleaded not guilty to the charges related to all four. A big break in the case came in January 2023 when investigation took a swab from a leftover pizza crust human discarded in the trash outside his Manhattan office according to court documents. DNA evidence initially linked him to a hair found on the burlap sack where Waterman's remains were found. So the key evidence in all of these cases because they happened so long ago is DNA. And we're talking about mitochondrial DNA. Forensic testing performed on strands of hair on or near both Taylor and Castillas remains found in 99.96% of the North American population could be excluded as the source of the hairs but Rex Eumann could not. The latest bail application said two forensic laboratories determine hairs recovered on five of the six victims or tidy human members of the immediate family or people who lived with him. So all of these pieces of evidence again, forensically, we have no eyeball witnesses, you know, at least from coming from the district attorney's perspective. We've heard other people say that I believe the attorney John Ray has said that he has a witness that saw or can tie Rex Eumann to several of the escorts. The cab driver that he refers to. But Ray Tierney isn't saying that there's any truth to that. Carol Graceton gifted five police off the cuff memberships. Carol, thank you so much, guys. This is police off the cuff, real crime stories. If you like real crime, true crime from a police perspective, you're in the right place. And if you're not subscribed to us, go on our YouTube, hit that subscribe button, give us a thumbs up, ring that bell and share us with your friends and your family. If you want to contribute to us, financially, we have a Patreon with four different levels, and we also have a YouTube channel membership with count of five different levels. Let's go back to the interview of Ray Tierney here. Hang on one second, folks. This is the technical, the technical, end of this. OK, I'm going to put it back up on the screen. That's why I sometimes wish I had a producer, but I have to, I have to do all these things. Hypothetical is right, nobody wants to hear about the hypothetical. But I guess that there's a big question about the timeline, right? And when this all potentially began in the age of some of these workers, and I know you've interviewed hundreds of sex workers who have claimed to have had encountered a lot of pain in life, and a lot of sex workers who have claimed to have had encounters now with Huermann, which date back to more than 30 years ago. So could this have all began? I know it's a hypothetical again, but could it have began 30 years ago? Well, I mean, I think the allegation is the earliest one is Sandra Castillo, which is 1993, which puts us back in that timeframe. So, you know, anything is really in play. But again, it's the evidence which dictates and it's what we can prove, not what we think. I want to ask you, based on what was discovered in Huermann's house, all of the evidence, including that blueprint, what surprise do you most? I don't think anything surprised me. I think the thing about these cases is really anything is on the table and you just have to go in again with no preconceived ideas and just follow the evidence. And, you know, all of I would submit that all of the investigative steps we took were necessary and were dictated by, you know, what the previous investigation revealed. We first identified Mr. Uriman as a suspect. And that's all he is, is a suspect at this point, March 14th of 2022. And and we've been, you know, working ever since to try to establish more evidence. Yeah, and I think I think going back into the home surprised many, right? Because you spent quite a number of days in the original time you were there. Did you get everything you needed from the house? Or is there potentially another reason you'd go back in? Well, I mean, I think the reason why we went back to the second time is because we gathered a tremendous amount of evidence including a tremendous amount of digital evidence. Yeah, many of many of that evidence was encrypted. So we had an unencrypted and we had to evaluate it. So that took a while. The planning document, which is referenced in our bail letter, we discovered that on in March of this year and based upon that, we went back in based on what we saw from the earlier search. Yeah, we're almost out of time. We're out of time. It's going to get real quick on what happens at the next court date. So again, you know, unfortunately cases aren't light TV, especially a case like this when we go on back to all the way to 1993. Tremendous amount of forensic digital and other evidence and documents, which we have to provide to the defense. We've been doing that. We're going to continue to do that. All right, so that was like no new smoking gun information, but just hearing it coming out of Ray T and his mouth that he acted alone. You know, there's no he had no accomplices. He acted alone. There's no one in his family is involved in this. And we were, you know, we're getting this from all different information, all different sources, right? The woman I was referring to before and for some reason, I had a blank in my head. Of course, Shannon Gilbert, who was an other expert who was not discovered on Gilgo, but rather Oak Beach. She was found 20 months. Her body was found 20 months after she disappeared. John Ray, says he has a cab driver who can tie rexure men into at least having a meeting with Shannon Gilbert in regards to the escort business. So is that true or not? You know, you heard out of Ray T and his mouth. No, there's no accomplices. There's no one else involved here. So then what was the press conference about? Very recently, where with all those horrible pictures, and of course, with that great doctor Gary Ricardo who appeared besides John Ray talking about this case. This is when he was first arrested for these new cases. Of one victim found decades ago that was only recently tied to the Gilgo Beach investigation. Good days, Brielle, Tom said he is outside the Heurman home in Massapequa Park, Long Island, with the details. Brielle, what are you hearing? - Yeah, Dennis, Shawnee, good morning to both of you. So there are no investigators outside Rex Heurman's Long Island home today, but one could argue there were certainly signs these new charges were coming. Police were here two weeks ago conducting a second search of the home, and back in April, K9 units spent hours combing through a wooded area where 28-year-old Sandra Castilla's remains were found about 30 years ago. - In a shocking turn of events, Rex Heurman, the accused Gilgo Beachkiller, whose name is now infamous on Long Island is expected to be charged with not just one, but two more killings today at a Suffolk County courthouse. Suffolk County District Attorney Ray Tierney declined to talk about those charges, confirming only that Heurman will stand before a judge at 9.30 this morning. - They'll wait until the court proceeding. - According to Newsday, the disgraced architect has been indicted in the November 1993 death of Sandra Castilla, a Queens woman whose remains were found in the town of Southampton more than three decades ago. The paper says he'll be arranging connection with her killing and the July 2003 dismemberment death of 20-year-old escort Jessica Taylor. Some of her remains were found in a wooded area in Mannerville. The rest were located in March of 2011 along Ocean Parkway near those of another sex worker, 24-year-old Valerie Mack. No arrests have been made in her case. Heurman was initially arrested last July and pleaded not guilty in the deaths of four women. Melissa Bartholomew, Maureen Brainard Barnes, Megan Waterman, and Amberlyn Costello. Their bodies were all located near each other on Ocean Parkway and were the first of 10 sets of remains found in the same area between fall of 2010 and spring of 2011. He's been held without bail since then on first and second degree murder charges. Last month, investigators were back in Massapequa Park carrying cardboard evidence boxes at a Heurman's home. Law enforcement officials stopped short of saying, though, what they were looking for. - Thursday, you will see the fruits of that investigation. - At Heurman's latest court appearance back in April, D.A. Tierney said that prosecutors turned over nearly 400 complete leads and more than 7,000 other persons of interest during the 13-year-long investigation for now that we're live here. - So that was when he was first arrested with this new information they had, with the two new victims based on the searches in a mannerville. D.C.P.N.W. from the chat, does this make him more Machiavellian to be so precise and look standing yet alone? What it makes him, it makes him more like all of the serial killers, which most of the time, serial killers absolutely work by themselves. They work alone. They do not share their victims or their ideas with anyone. And I think that's consistent with Rex Uriman. He definitely worked alone. And that's what we're getting from Ray Tierney, but yet other folks are insisting that, are insisting that he worked with other members of his family. And apparently that's not true. Well, that's absolutely not true. And when you listen or speak to the serial killer experts the Dr. Gary Bukatos, the Dr. Joni Johnson's, the Jim Clementes from the FBI, it is just they, it's not unheard of that a serial killer can work with another person, but 90% of the time they work alone. And I think that's also part of their, their psychology that they will work alone, because that's how they get their thrills. Most of serial killers are psychosexual, sadistic killers. And that happens to be a fact. And that's one of the reasons they like to work together. I'm gonna play a little bit of Dr. Joni Johnson, who was on my show a number of times, but she is a serial killer expert. And her own's a car, own's a house is financially independent, is educated, is articulate, can travel around, just fits in with mainstream society. I think we would say that Rex Juman is an organized defender, but with signs of disorganization, would you comment upon that? - Yeah, it's interesting because the comments that we've gotten from his neighbors and then looking for example, the contrast between his home and the appearance of his home and his business and how polished he looks in that, you know, that picture, there is kind of a disconnect there, you know? And so we do kind of think, yeah. And it's interesting, Bill, because you're right, the earliest classifications for serial killers was organized versus disorganized. And I think as the years have gone by, we realized that most serial killers are organized to some extent, or they wouldn't be able to be a serial killer, right? So there are some degree of organization. And then also that even the most organized serial killer, given the right circumstances with the opportunity he's there, may become disorganized in terms of grabbing a victim, just because they have a can. So I think that distinction has become a little bit blurred, but I think it is useful because we can talk about somebody who's, for example, married, has a home, has a business, is not somebody who's going to be necessary smashing people off the street or hitting them with a hammer in the subway. - But at the same time, he displayed some attributes and of a disorganized offender. And specifically, I'm gonna point to something that occurred very recently. A woman made a police report against him. I believe it was July 3rd in a park in Massa Pico where this large man popped out of the woods and started asking her creepy questions. And she was so creeped out that she made, she got us away from him as quickly as she could, but she made a police report. That's how creeped out she was about this guy. And then when she saw he was arrested and she saw it was, she was like, that's the guy who approached me in this park. So doc, my question to you is, he was still working, wasn't he? He was still playing his trade. - You know, I will be very surprised if we find out that the last victim was killed in 2011, 2012, and it's not because serial killers cannot stop because we used to think unless they were incarcerated, unless they, you know, died, you know, unless something drastic happened, they would never stop killing on their own. We know that's not true. They've been serial killers who've taken long periods of time where they stopped. We know the Golden State Killer, for example, Joseph D'Angelo quit, you know, 20 years before he was caught. So it's not that serial killers don't stop. But when we read things like, this person is still using a burner phones, this person is still contacting people who are engaging in sex work, that is what concerns me. Because I'm not familiar with, you know, the research does not support, you know, that there are sexually motivated serial killers who continue to do part of their job. And I'm putting that job in quotation marks, of course, but not the rest of it. That would be very, very atypical. So that does concern me. I mean, I would be very interested in knowing if he's been involved with, you know, with women who are engaging in sex work and has not killed them, what their experience has been like with him. What is he doing? - That's tremendously interesting. And Dr. Joni Johnston, serial killer expert, said she would be very interested to know, to find out. Was he involved with sex workers, escorts, that he went, had a liaison with, let's say, and did not kill them? I think the answer to that is probably yes, but we don't know for sure, because that part of the investigation has really never been released. These two more escorts, Jessica Taylor and Valerie Mack, and in the case of Valerie Mack, he has never been charged with that yet. So all of these cases, going back to Sandra Castillo in 1993, does that alarm anyone that's listening? It alarms me that that shows he would have been, what, that's 31 years ago? He would have been 29 years old. Did he just start then? According to serial killer expert, Dr. Gary Bracado, he says most serial killers start on the average at about the age of 26. So is that a little early for Rick Shulman? Did he start at 26? Or did he in fact start at 29 when the first, now the latest one, Sandra Castillo, happened in 1993. Very scary, very scary. So what we all think, I think what most of us think, is that there's way more bodies out there. They haven't been found yet. But if you recall this investigation, you may think that the police jumped the gun and moved too quickly on Rick Shulman. But I'll tell you why they did that. They moved in earlier than they wanted to because he was still evinsing this type of behavior. He was still calling escorts. He was still buying burnifons. Don't forget, they were able to get into his computer with a search warrant remotely. So he never knew the police had all the information from his computer. He didn't know that. They searched it remotely. So when it first came out, that's the second search warrant where they told everyone that he had a planning document containing detailed notes on how to plan and clean up the crimes, he's accused of. So we know that he's accused of six. And the two most recently added to the Gilgo Four was Sandra Castillo in 1993. Her body found out in Southampton, Easton Long Island, and Jessica Taylor, who went missing in 2003. So you and for you as far as we all know, he's from Masspeaker Park, was previously undidated on former charges in connection with the bodies of the women that had been found across Long Island's Gilgo Beach 2010. So he was arrested. This is the one year anniversary. I think Saturday they said, will be the one year anniversary of his arrest. So they allegedly took, diligently took notes on the preparation and clean up of the alleged murders. And what the indictment refers to as the planning document, authorities claim you and allegedly methodically took notes to plan out his kills. It includes an exhaustive collection of bullet points and columns with different kinds of notes. One section of the planning document allegedly features four columns labeled problems, supplies, DS and TRG. The list under each column appear to indicate possible challenges to executing a killing and what tools one might need. The problems column shows a bulleted list that includes hair and fiber, DNA, fingerprints and gloves and blood stains according to the indictment, under supplies. The list includes saw, cutting tools, lie, acid, burn can and a police scanner. I mean, if this, if that document isn't one of the most powerful pieces of evidence that we've seen in one of these cases, I don't know what it is, Carly from the chat. I also think he killed the men found in medieval, found near where Valerie and Jessica's partial remains were found. You know, Carly as District Attorney Ray Taney said, we can't conjecture. We can only him speaking for the Gogo Beach Task Force and the people working on this case, they can only act upon evidence. And they may even have other bodies that they're looking at that they haven't revealed because they don't have the evidence to tie them in, to tie him into these cases. You know, we all know that this case was hampered by a lot of corruption back in the day. You guys have mentioned in the chat, Chief James Burke, who famously kicked the FBI off this case, who famously sort of disregarded evidence. Think of that, the Chevy Avalanche, that was in the case form for years. And no one acted upon it. But when the Gogo Beach Task Force was formed, two months after the task force was formed, they identified the owner of that vehicle as a procurement. So incredible, right? But what were they doing before that with this investigation? Why did it take them so many years to find out who Rex human was? Nancy, you know, I'm seeing in the chat, I can't read all these things 'cause some of you guys are making allegations that they're not proven. We can't, we can't just, you know, look, James Burke, many of you think that James Burke was a conspirator in these cases. But one of the things that we know about serial killers that may put that to rest is that 90% of the time, I'm throwing out that most of the time, look, I'll throw out a number I'm not sure of, that they work alone. They're not working with anyone else. So that in itself, did James Burke, Chief James Burke hurt this case? Did he make it drag on for years because they didn't do a proper investigation? You bet, you bet, absolutely. But was he involved in it? We can't say that. We can't say we don't have any evidence to that. And, you know, you have to go with law enforcement. You have to go with what Ray Tierney is saying. Patty from the chat, if he was doing these murders while the family went away, they must have a schedule. Other times, they were out of town on other dates so they could connect any missing sex workers at those dates. Patty, that's, yeah, that's absolutely correct. Misbelieving, it's basically a written confession, well, not quite misbelieving, but powerful evidence nonetheless. Not a confession, but very powerful evidence. Um, uh, Patricia Johnson, what about two books written, two documentaries? You know, Patricia, there's been so much news, there's been so much written on this case, there's been documentaries. But until last July, when Rex Ewemann was arrested, none of the dots were connected relative to the investigation. In fact, many people thought there was more than one killer in the Gilgo Beach murders. And now I think it looks, um, Patricia Johnson, Patricia, I agree with you. Suffolk County Police, the detectives, Spoder, the invited district attorney, all of that makes this case look horrific. And then when we even go back to the, uh, the Shannon Gilbert case, that case is, as far as the Suffolk County police are concerned, they, they think that that case is closed, that she, she did go to that location. And I'm, I don't want to, um, get deeply into that 'cause we could do a whole show on that. But that she, it's ruled, Shannon Gilbert's case is not ruled as a homicide right now. It's ruled as an accidental death. And many of you disagree with that. Sakezi, Mr. Bill, I have so many podcasts as this question. He traveled to Richmond, Virginia. Has anything come out of Virginia? Sakezi so far, the investigations that have crossed state lines, the cases that I remember there was four bodies in Atlantic city, uh, early on in the investigation, they had mentioned that he's been clear of that. So what does that mean? That just means that the forensic evidence that they have, in those cases, um, does not match Requiemann. H. Cook from the chat, I believe Burke and Requiemann ran in the same crowd. So Burke didn't believe someone he knew would be involved. You know, H. Cook possible. That's very possible. All right. Nancy, I'm stating facts that are definitely provable. This is very high level politician. I know him very well for over 50 years. You know, Nancy, all the people and all the, the, the evidence in this case, if people have evidence, then they should come forward to the police and speak to the police about that evidence that potentially they're holding back that the police don't know about, but until it's presented to the authorities, it's not evidence. It's just, you know, hearsay. Uh, so, you know, I know, look, this, um, Patricia Johnson, footage of women in hotels on Fire Island. Look, there's no doubt. And one of the things that Dr. Joni Johnson said, the great serial killer expert, she said, she would love to know if Requiemann dated escorts that he didn't kill. And I believe he absolutely did, because he was a prolific, uh, user of, of, uh, sex escorts. So he couldn't have killed every single one of them, could he? And that was probably part of his sickness that he needed to, uh, needed to date escorts, needed to go out with escorts. That's one of the reasons that the case was taken down earlier, then the police actually wanted to, uh, Lindelow, no doubt. Shannon Gilbert's case helped break the Gilgo Beach case. Lindelow, I do not deny that. I, that I think that's, that's well known. Nancy from the chat. He's extremely secretive. He used multiple aliases, names, ages, careers. I knew him with the first name, Michael. I know how obsessive he is. Are you talking about Requiemann, Nancy? Just writing the chat. Yes or no? Because sometimes I come into this chat and it's, uh, Susie Bug, wow, I just got the love notification and Bill started 40 years ago. Carol Jane, think too of what police have, that hasn't been made public. It's hard hitting as the documents are. What else is there? We aren't getting to see. Uh, Carol Jane, good point. I'm sure there's a lot of information that the police have that they have yet to release to the public. Because some of it is also discovery material, uh, discovery material that the prosecution has to give to the defense. Elena Gonzalez from the chat. Yes, yes, absolutely. He did date other women. He was constantly fishing for women. You know, one of the things that we know as part of the Gilgo Beach Task Force, is investigators from the Suffolk County Sheriff's Office. Remember Sheriff Errol Toulan? Great guy. I had him on his show once. What a, what a hell of a nice guy. He's been in the correctional field for, I think he said like 43 years. That'd be pretty much all his adult life. And part of their job is to interview escorts who get arrested while they're in jail and ask them the questions that they know about this case. And see if there's anything that they can vet any information, any evidence that they can tie together from these escorts that has a commonality. Or if there's anyone else involved. All of these things are so important. Johanna James, uh, I blows my mind that normal people out here trying to be nice and good people and there's sex, excuse me, there's rec spending years killing people. He must have no soul. How does he sleep at night? Well, he's a serial killer and they have, uh, serious psychological issues besides many other things. Carly from the chat, Shannon and Castillo broke the case without him because Theo's friends wouldn't have been solved. I think you're right. And you know, one of the things, Carly, also that helps solve this case. Undoubtedly was the Gilgo Beach task force that was started by former police commissioner Rodney Harrison and current district attorney, Ray Tierney. That was the catalyst that got this case moving. No doubt. Lightwalkers in the chat, I believe that John Bichroff could also have run with these two as well. Rita, 10, Teddy and Sandra Castillo and Colleen McNamee are all near each other dump sites. And same timeframe. I think I have a picture of, uh, of there he is right there. Let me get your comment off the screen. It's sort of blocking it. That's John Bichroff there. Now, I believe John Bichroff is currently doing life in prison. Initially, this woman on the screen next to John Bichroff is Sandra Castillo. Initially, they thought he murdered Sandra Castillo. But they had since, uh, identified the mitochondrial DNA that was on a, a, uh, bag underneath her body as rec humans and the other hair was identified as belonging to his ex-wife. So that's the evidence that got them off of John Bichroff, um, being involved in this and put them on rec human. And why is that so important? Well, one of the big reasons is because now it takes us back to 1993, making rec human 29 years old. And again, I, I suggest earlier, could he have started earlier than that? Yeah, you bet he could have, right? You bet. How exhausting, uh, do you think this investigation is and will continue to be? The investigators will not stop. They're going to keep doing this till they get closure. And, you know, you may ask, well, how do they come up with other bodies? They just go out and search the woods. Well, it all starts with missing person reports, escorts talking to the Suffolk County investigators in the Suffolk County jail. Escorts throughout the state prison system that may be from Long Island, that talk to investigators. That is how this investigation will continue. And as you heard Ray Taney say in that interview, they are continuing to uncover new evidence all the time. Don't forget the planning document was an encrypted document that was a word document that opened up a Pandora's box of evidence against rec human. I want to play this up on the screen is some news nation. Defense attorney and former prosecutor Peter Franco now. I mean, wow, we weren't quite sure what to expect today in court. Now we've got two additional murder charges, bringing now six charges against rec human Jessica Taylor and Sandra Castillo. I mean, how much does this bolster the prosecution's defense given? The evidence Laura was just laying out. They now have. Yeah, great to be with you morning. Thank you for having me. So I don't think anybody expected this as a former prosecutor. I can tell you that, you know, we have to recognize all the efforts that have been made that the tireless efforts by law enforcement to continue to work these cold cases. Now we know that these cases go back to at least 1993. So it's really we wouldn't be having this conversation if not for the efforts of law enforcement. Of course, that being said, as a defense attorney, this is an absolute nightmare for Mr. Hiram and you can always have a trial, have doing experts and argue to the jury that DNA evidence may not be reliable, for example. But now when you have all of these electronic documents that not only go to the planning of these horrific murders, but also talk about steps after the murders are completed. I mean, that's the sort of evidence that it's essentially impossible to to try to defend against. So from the prosecution standpoint today, I mean, this evidence is overwhelming. It's a blueprint to murder, right? If it is what it appears to be in this document, I'm also curious and are you as well, Peter, about the fact that this second search led to this evidence. They were there almost a year ago, Thureman has been behind bars since July of 2023, that we're only now seeing this evidence presented in this case. I'm imagining that is a question that the defense is going to have about the timeline. Yeah, I think it's really interesting because we know that there were three bodies or remains that were recovered in Vanderbilt, which is about an hour from Gilgo Beach, two of which were apparently women we know, and they went back, they searched the woods in Matterville in April of this year. Subsequent to that, they went back, they were able to get search warrants for Mr. Huberman's home, they went back to the home, they spent a significant amount of time in the basement. So one can only surmise that between what they found back in the woods in Matterville and what they found in humans basement in May, that had a significant role in leading to this additional indictment. I think, morning, what's also interesting here is the defense had been talking a lot about the prior police chief James Burke and how he was corrupt and he was potentially a suspect or can compromise the investigation. He went to prison, but in light of what we know from today, the defense is going to have to rethink where they're going to go with their arguments because James Burke and whatever he did or didn't do for the three years that he was police chief now becomes even less significant in trying to defend this case. Finally, Peter, Huberman's estranged wife, Aisa Ellarup filed for divorce shortly after his arrest, but we know in the months after that she has visited him a number of times in prison. She's shown up for several of these hearings. How important will his support be for his defense and maybe for the prosecution's case, given what she may or may not know? I think it's very significant. You know, what's interesting to me is that there seems to be a lot of evidence that demonstrates that when these murders were allegedly committed, that the family always seemed to be away out of town, gave him an opportunity to do what he was doing. So if it goes back to something that Laura mentioned with respect to this book that was recovered in the house and whether or not that can actually be connected in some way to the rest of the family members or if this was just another piece of the puzzle that relates specifically and only to Rex Huberman. Wow. Well, incredible developments in court today in this ongoing case against Rex Huberman. Peter Frankl, thank you for your perspective. So, you know, again, nothing smoking gun ask today, but, you know, Ray Tierney talking about how as they come up with new evidence, this case is absolutely not over. But some of the things he spoke about that the evidence was encrypted. That's how they came up with the planning document. They got into that document and that he feels that Rex Huberman absolutely acted alone. Milwaukee civilian from the chat. Thank you so much for the $20 superstar acknowledging law enforcement, non-miss non-feasance. Police often know things that cannot be proved in court. Suffolk County screwed up, but Rodney Harrison got it right. You know, Milwaukee civilian, 100%, you know, you can't look at this case without looking at the corruption angle. We all have to acknowledge that because for years, nothing happened with this case. And when in regards to from the law enforcement end, and we always have to remember these four women up on the screen, Maureen Brainard Barnes, Melissa Bartellome, Megan Waterman, and Amber Costello, they were the initial Gilgo for, right? And initially, when the arrest of Rex Huberman was made, there was only three. There was Melissa Bartellome, Megan Waterman, and Amber Costello. And I believe they added the case of Maureen Brainard Barnes. Once they had enough evidence to prove it, but prior to that, they didn't have the evidence necessary to bring that case in. If you remember, that case was brought forth after all the other cases. So they haven't, as they said, they haven't stopped. The investigation has not stopped. And you see up on the screen there that is Jessica Taylor. And excuse me, I could be wrong there. I think that is actually, no, it is Jessica Taylor, right? But Valerie Mack is the other case that they haven't been able to get the evidence on in order to put all these cases together. There's the little map of Long Island up on the screen. The Gilgo Beach murders the four victims are believed to be connected near all in the same place. And then two victims were dismembered with some of their body parts found here, and others found 45 miles away in Manaville in 2000 and 2003. You see up on the screen, no one believes that anymore. A second killer may be responsible for those murders. Now, I think most people in the know believe that Rex Ewanman is responsible for all of these murders. And to tell you the truth, I didn't believe it early on. Now I do. Now I believe he is the soul, the lone Gilgo Beach killer. And I would have never been believed that before. H. Cook from the chat, Rodney Harrison started the task force ASAP. Yes, former law enforcement stuck it up, but how good guys are on it and making progress. 100% right, H. Cook, Joe N. W. I don't care what your career path is. Nobody deserves what this ogre did. You're 100% right. Look, could that have been one of the problems? And that was mentioned earlier that the culture of the Suffolk County police that perhaps, and I hate to even believe this, that perhaps they didn't work as hard in these cases because the victims were escorts. That's not what a real homicide investigator does. It shouldn't matter to a homicide investigator, what someone does for a living, what station someone is in life, what caste system someone is in life, whether someone is white, black, Asian, Indian, that should have no effect on the effort that's put in the investigation. And is there any evidence that that was the case? I don't know. I don't know what the culture of the Suffolk County police department was, but that could be a possibility. Misbelieving from the chat, I heard the FBI statistics that are between 25 and 50 active serial killers at any given time in the US that sounds way too low to me. You know, misbelieving, serial killers now because of technology, because of video, because of science, they get caught early on. So serial killers have become more rare for that reason. I'm not saying there's not a lot of them that still do exist. But the definition of a serial killer is two or more murders with time in between. And so what happens in this day and age is many killers don't get to be serial because they get caught early on in the investigation because of outstanding investigation, outstanding police work. DCP and W and Ted Bundy's final interview, he was asked what it came down to, why he did do it. He said because he wanted to chilling. He inferred there were about 200 victims. Well, sometimes killers, you know, brag and purposely give, you know, I don't think he killed 200 people. But Elena Gonzalez, I wish people ladies came forward to police. They know so much that can reveal more about Rex. Well, Elena, I hope they do now too, since he's not posing a danger to anyone now because he's in jail. And he's not going to hurt anyone in jail. Mary Drexelen from the chat, I keep saying that Rex started murder women and children since he graduated from high school. I believe that his first murder was back in 1983. And he probably is the murder of all 12 of the victims. I think there's a distinct possibility of that, but we can't just say it without any evidence. Alan G, I think the divorce was a legal move to keep the house. Well, Alan G, there's undoubtedly going to be civil action against Rex human and against his estate and against his home. So yes, was that a legal maneuver by his wife so that she can shield herself from civil action by his victims and his victims family? Absolutely. Joanne W, you reckon he could have started when his dad died that, you know, some people said that I don't think there's any, there's any specific evidence of that. Joanne W, I mean, Dahmer did, Rosalie Labrario. Welcome. I love this channel. Well, thank you so much. It's always good to have your work appreciated. Joanne W, when his parents split, he went bonkers. Debza Moro 40. Hello from Colorado. My question is, how do these serial killers deciding was going to be a white and it was going to be a victim? Complicated question. I don't think I can answer that. Very complicated question. But when we, I was talking on the show with Dr. Joni Johnson about organized and disorganized serial killers. Some serial killers have the traits of both and organized, you know, means, you know, you're living in the world unrecognized and you're, you have a job. In this case, he owned a business, you own a car, you own a home, you have outwardly what seems like a normal middle class life, except what stuck out in this case was his house. His house stuck out in that middle class neighborhood as the house of of an architect. The house looked like it was about to fall apart, you know, was being held up by two by fours. The roof was being held up by two, but I don't think I have a picture of it right now. So did that part not stick out a little bit that, but that didn't say he was a serial killer? I mean, many of us may have people that live on our block that don't take care of the house. Does that mean they're a serial killer? No. Does that, is that an indicator of perhaps many things? Mental illness, perhaps they just don't have the money to fix the house. So getting back to organized and disorganized. So Rex human was definitely an organized defender yet had traits of being disorganized, you know, and I point to his house at some of the traits that he had that showed he was disorganized. But if you read, there's a report by FBI agent, Jim Clemente, who was in the New York Times, and he almost gave a perfect, and I'll see if I can pull it up, a perfect rendition, and this was 12 or 13 years ago of who the Gilgo Beach killer was. I see if I can, yeah, I actually was able to pull it up. I'm going to read it to you guys because I think it's, it's pretty impressive. This was written April 21st, 2011. He is most likely a white male in his mid 20s to mid 40s. He's married or has a girlfriend. He is well educated and well spoken. He is financially secure, has a job and owns an expensive car or truck. He may have sought treatment at a hospital for poison ivy infection. As part of his job or interest, he has access to or a stockpile of burlap sacks. And he lives or used to live on or near Ocean Parkway on the south shore of Long Island where the police have found as many as 10 sets of human remains. In interviews with serial killer experts and criminologists, including a former FBI profiler, a portrait emerges of the man who investigators on the island believe is responsible for several of the bodies they've discovered in the brush off of Ocean Parkway since December. For the moment, he is known in law enforcement jargon only as unsub or unknown subject. No arrests have been made and no suspects have been identified by the Suffolk County Police Department, which is leading the investigation. Profiling serial murders is far from a precise science. There are nearly 3 million people on the island and the man who killed at least four prostitutes who advertise for clients on Craigslist is perhaps but one. And the experts interviewed are sketching out a possible suspect based on details of the case that have been publicly revealed like the burlap sacks that the four woman's bodies were found in in the series of taunting phone calls that the killer is believed to have made to one victim's relatives. This is someone who can walk into a room and seem like your average Joe said Scott Bonn, an assistant professor of sociology at Drew University in Madison, New Jersey and a serial killer researcher. He has to be persuasive enough and rational enough that he is able to convince these women to meet him on these terms. He has demonstrated social skills. He may even be charming. That was written April 21, 2011. Jim Clemente, an FBI profiler, wrote that 13 years ago. I think it was pretty damn accurate in regards to who Rex Uriman is. I think it is. I think it was. I think it is. Not every serial killer expert can make a prediction like that. 13 years prior to the arrest and apprehension of Rex Uriman who is innocent until proven guilty. But yet we can all say that but there's a lot of evidence against him isn't there. But there's been a lot of evidence against other people that after trial were found innocent. Debs Amor of 40, I remember before the BTK killer was called his wife worried about the killer being on the loose and he told her she didn't have anything to worry about. I wonder if something similar played out. Well, Rex Uriman's victims were very specifically from a certain group of people. Milwaukee Civilian this description sounds like an outline to me. I think profiles are more often wrong than correct. Remember the belt will weigh killers profiles. Milwaukee Civilian you're 100% right. They can't be right every time. Even some of the sort of what would seem like arbitrary information to us like the burlap sacks meaning he must work in a job that uses burlap sacks or have access to them somewhere of course. But he didn't turn out he didn't work in a kind of job that had access to burlap sacks. But the fact that he had a car or a truck he needed a car or a truck didn't he to transport the bodies. And that's how he was able to get away with it. He had to be charming or at least approachable enough so that these women were willing to get into a car with him didn't he. So all of those things pointed towards Rex Uriman. And again that was written in April 2011. Just absolutely I think a pretty damn good profile. But then why did it take them to July 2023 to apprehend and arrest Rex Uriman. We all can answer that question with our own answers but we all sort of know why you know. A not enough attention was given to this case. Not enough money was spent on the investigation. There was corruption at one time in Suffolk County that wasted years and years and years of this investigation. The nexus between the victims was that they were all escorts. Difficult in these cases because the bodies were found years and years later to assign the cause of death. The manner of death we know was homicide. The cause. What was the specific method that these women were killed. We would all probably think asphyxia right. However, Sandra Castilla was stabbed. I don't have the amount of times right now but it was overkill. That was the only body that I know of in the Gilgo Beach case that was stabbed to death. That goes back to 1993. So the direction and start out more violent and then get less violent. That's a question I have. That's a question I'd like to know the answer to. Just incredible. This case will continue to baffle in many ways but yet we have many of the answers right now that we didn't have for a very long time. Misbelieving, do you think if the victims were not in that profession, would the investigation have done better? Would the community have demanded it? Misbelieving, we can conjecture that. This was, say, young college students from good families in Suffolk County. That's not a good reason for not doing a competent and spending the money on this case. Look, they didn't even want to admit that they had a serial killer for years. They didn't even want to admit that. So we can all look at this and say, yeah, perhaps there was some culture of the police that didn't allow them to go what I would say balls to the wall in this investigation. Could that be only the people that worked on this investigation will know the answer to that question? Will it ever come out? Will it become part of a book or a TV series or something like that? Tony, thank you. Fantastic show, Bill. Thank you so much. Carol Jane, Gacy Stebb's first victim, but felt he had too much cleaning to do. Well, crazy. You know, guys, I just want to thank everyone. I just, when I saw the interview of Ray Tierney, I said, you know, I should get on the air right now, because this is the first new information. It's not really smoking gun, but it's given us information from Ray Tierney, who lately hasn't been going and talking to the media very much. So when I saw he did get interviewed, I said, you know, let me go on the air and present what he said during his interview. So folks, I want to thank you so much for tuning in. I'm Bill Cannon from Police Off The Car for Real Crime Stories. Have a great night, everyone, and God bless. [Music]