Police Off The Cuff/Real Crime Stories

What can we expect Alec Baldwin's Manslaughter trial.

Duration:: 1h 16m
Broadcast on:: 04 Jul 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

What can we expect Alec Baldwin's Manslaughter trial? #Baldwin #RustMovieSet #Manslaughter Alec Baldwin is headed to trial for involuntary manslaughter three years after the fatal shooting on the set of Rust. Baldwin, 66, was initially charged with two counts of involuntary manslaughter in January 2023 after he was holding a prop weapon that contained real bullets on the film’s set in New Mexico back in 2021. The shot killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and injured director Joel Souza. Baldwin has maintained his innocence since the shooting and claimed he didn’t pull the trigger of the prop gun. He pleaded not guilty in February 2023 and the criminal charges were dropped against the actor two months later. “We are pleased with the decision to dismiss the case against Alec Baldwin and we encourage a proper investigation into the facts and circumstances of this tragic accident,” Luke Nikas and Alex Spiro, attorneys for Baldwin said in an April 2023 statement. While the charges were dropped in 2023, Baldwin was indicted for a second time on involuntary manslaughter charges the following year. Baldwin’s attorneys filed to have the case dismissed but the judge sided with prosecutors to let the trial continue. (US News) Listening sites for POTC/Real Crime Stories https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/police-off-the-cuff-real-crime-stories/id1452116115 https://embed.podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/police-off-the-cuff-real-crime-stories/id1452116115?itsct=podcast_box_player&itscg=30200&ls=1&theme=auto 💯 Join our mission to uncover the truth in crime! Support Police Off the Cuff on Patreon for exclusive content and insider access. Click now and become a part of our detective squad: policeoffthecuff676.com www.patreon.com/policeoffthecuff 💬 Did you like this video? Let me know in the comments below! ✅ Subscribe to Police off the Cuff right now! Click here: https://www.policeofthecuff676.com/ https://www.youtube.com/@PoliceofftheCuff?sub_confirmation=1 Or become a YouTube Member to get access to perks here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKo80Xa1PYTc23XN_Yjp8pA/join --------------- Welcome to the Official YouTube Channel of Police off the Cuff This is where the veil of mystery on high-profile cases is lifted through the sharp insights of seasoned law enforcement professionals and where real crime meets real analysis. This is your destination for exploring the complexities of true crime stories, illuminated by the rich experience and street wisdom of those who have walked the thin blue line. At the helm is retired NYPD Sergeant Bill Cannon, a figure of authority in the crime investigation arena, with a diverse background that spans across acting, broadcasting, and academia. Bill's profound knowledge and keen analytical skills, combined with his empathetic approach, make each story not just heard but felt. Phil's extensive investigative experience, coupled with his genuine passion and characteristic Brooklyn charm, adds depth and relatability to the discussions. ➡️ Here we navigate the intricate web of the nation's most captivating crime stories, offering not just stories, but an education on the realities of criminal investigation. Their combined expertise provides a unique lens through which the stories are told, offering insights that only those with firsthand experience can provide. Join us on this journey into the heart of true crime, where every episode promises a deep dive into the minds of criminals and the tireless efforts of law enforcement to bring them to justice. --------------- 📲 Follow Police off the Cuff on social media: Instagram ▶️ https://www.instagram.com/policeoffthecuff Facebook ▶️ https://www.facebook.com/Policeoffthecuff-312794509230136/ Twitter ▶️ https://twitter.com/policeoffthecuf 🎧 Dive deep into true crime with Police Off the Cuff Podcast. Join retired NYPD expert Bill Cannon as he dissects infamous cases with insider insight: Become a Paid Subscriber: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/otcpod1/subscribe Check us out on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@PoliceofftheCuff, Police off the Cuff/Real Crime Stories. Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/otcpod1/support ☑️ Support Police Off the Cuff and help us bring you more captivating crime stories. Every contribution makes a difference! Choose your preferred way to donate: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/policeoffthecuff1gma Venmo @William-Cannon-27 https://www.buymeacoffee.com/policeoffty --------------- 📚 Disclaimer: This video may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been sp

"My dad works in B2B marketing. "He came by my school for career day "and said he was a big row as man. "Then he told everyone how much he loved "calculating his return on ad spend. "My friends still laughing at me to this day." - Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to linkedin.com/results to claim your credit. That's linkedin.com/results. Terms and conditions apply. Linked in, the place to be, to be. (upbeat music) - Hello everyone and welcome to "Police Off the Cuff." Real crime stories. I'm your host, retired NYPD Sergeant Bill Cannon, a 27 year veteran of the NYPD. Folks, I wanna wish everyone for tomorrow, happy 4th of July, happy 4th of July weekend. And not lose sight of the holiday, as we join friends and family and backyard barbecues and family get-togethers. This is independent in our country and we always remember that freedom is not free. I know it's a cliche, but we say it all the time. You know, folks, this Alec Baldwin case is finally going to trial. And what can we expect in Alec Baldwin's manslaughter trial? Does it matter that he's a Hollywood A-lister? Does that really matter when the death of this woman in the bottom right of this thumbnail? You see, Alina Hutchins, she lost her life and the gentleman to the left, Joel Sousa, with the same bullet that was fired that Alec Baldwin fired from that 45 caliber gun, went through the body of Alina Hutchins and into Joel Sousa's shoulder. You know, many broadcasters, many journalists, they report that somehow the gun just went off, you know, and I think that's irresponsible journalism because it's already been stated numerous, numerous times by the FBI that that gun could not have gone off if someone pulled the trigger and granted part of this whole case will be determined on that, on the fact that it is the opinion of the FBI, ballistics experts that Alec Baldwin did, in fact, pull that trigger resulting in the death of Alina Hutchins. But there's many, many other aspects to this case that we're gonna go over with our expert panel. But again, this happened in October 21st, 2021. So we're at the three year mark, right? And many things have happened. Of course, Helena Gutierrez Reed, the armorer in this case, she was sentenced to 18 months in prison. And the same judge that sentenced Hannah Gutierrez Reed to 18 months in prison is the same judge who was gonna sit on this case. Her name is Judge Mary Marlow Summer. And trust me, she does not play, you know, and she will not be amused at a person or persons who do not take responsibility for their actions in this case. And provided, if Alec Baldwin, and I'm not saying he's going to, if Alec Baldwin does get convicted, I think in the same way that she found the behavior of Hannah Gutierrez Reed, quite egregious, you will find in the same way toward Alec Baldwin in the fact that he's never accepted his role in this, his responsibility in this, except, and from day one was doing, was in denial and was doing damage control from day one with his rich Hollywood friends going on national TV shows, talking about how innocent he was. Anyway, folks, hold on to your seats, hold on to your hats, hold on to your wigs, your children, your service dog, or cat, whatever you have, you're about to enter true crime from a police perspective. You're about to enter the off the cuff zone, the police off the cuff zone. (dramatic music) (tires screeching) (dramatic music) (tires screeching) (dramatic music) (tires screeching) - Jack, use some common sense. - Yes sir, any of the cars don't intend to branch by the driver. - We still don't know before the trailer. (dramatic music) (tires screeching) (dramatic music) (dramatic music) (dramatic music) (dramatic music) (dramatic music) - You know folks, we're gonna get right into this. So let me introduce my esteemed guests right away. And my co-host this evening is retired NYPD Sergeant, Professor at Alberta's Magnus College in Connecticut, attorney, the always affable Professor Mike Geary. Mike, welcome to the show. - Dave Billy, thank you for having me on. Welcome everyone to the show. - Always a pleasure. And we actually, the next guest, it's almost like people ask me, you know where the body of Jimmy Hoffa is? I go, that's probably where Phil is. But anyway, we got retired NYPD Detective, a crowd favorite. Welcome to the show, retired NYPD Detective, Phil Grimaldi, welcome Phil. And you forgot straight out of Brooklyn. How you doing Billy? - I got straight out of Brooklyn 'cause I had so much on my mind, I couldn't remember the old introduction. Anyway, this new Mexico judge, Judge Mary Marlowe Summer, she ruled against the defense in a number of rulings that they were trying to get this case dismissed. And she wasn't having it. She was absolutely not having it. Mike, your thoughts. - Billy, she's a tough judge. She's doing what she has to do. She has to control the courtroom. She's got Alec Baldwin with money. He's gonna have excellent attorneys. He's gonna have like, you know, that A-list attorney, defense attorneys. And they're making motions and they're spending money. And she wants this case over it. She wants to try it. She wants to try it now. And the last motion, the last motion that she denied was the motion to quash your indictment and throw out the case because of the damage done to the firearm in question by the FBI. She ruled against him. They said, we're gonna have the trial anyway. Mr. defense attorney, you make up whatever you want, whatever complaints you wanna make up. That's an appeal bullish later on. But we're gonna have the trial. We're gonna have it now. And so get set. It's starting next Tuesday. She's a tough judge. She's gotta be. It's her courtroom. Judges ruled the courtroom 100%. You know, Mike, there's also gotta be a lot of... There's so much international interests, not just national interests and local interests, but Alec Baldwin is an international star. But when you think about justice, that shouldn't mean anything. But it does because he's got big bucks and he could pay for the expensive attorneys. They've already filed all kinds of motions that some lesser person may not have been able to afford to file. And they put this case off for a pretty long time. Fill your thoughts. - Well, I gotta agree with Mike. I like this judge. I think that she's gonna be very fair in this case. And the fact that Alec Baldwin is a well-known actor, he's been in Hollywood for about, I don't know, over 30 years or something. Been in many, many motion pictures. He's a well-known actor. He's also well-known in the media for some of his antics. And I think that the judge is probably going to prescribe to the jury to put all of that aside. You're gonna have to look at the evidence. When she gives the jury instruction at the end after prosecution and defense has gone, she's gonna probably go through that very, very cautiously and say you have to leave your feelings about Alec Baldwin if you do know who he is, which most people are gonna know who he is. You're gonna have to leave those feelings at the door. You're gonna have to look at the evidence. If you like, or dislike this, some people that don't like Alec Baldwin, again, because of his media antics, he's got into screaming matches with reporters outside of his home and different things like that. I think he's even been arrested for some type of an assault. So with all of that said, the comes down to, we need a judge, and I think that this judge is very fair. When she sentenced Hannah Gautier's read, I believe that she was pretty strict about it in saying that even though you said you're sorry, doesn't seem like you've taken accountability for what happened. And let's face it, a young woman lost her life. Another person was shot. It's very, very tragic. That woman's husband doesn't have a wife anymore and a little boy doesn't have a mother. So I think the judge is connecting with that. And I think that's the right thing. I would connect with that too, if I were to judge. - Mike, one of the things, and I think if there was one word that could describe the Rust movie set, one word that could describe what the prosecution is going after in this case, and that one word is recklessness. - Yes, absolutely, a hundred percent. - Would you elaborate, Mike? I didn't expect you to give me a full word answer. - No, it's a hundred percent. I'm agreeing with you, it's reckless. The term is reckless. The fact that it was Alec Baldwin was shooting this picture, he was shooting it for a low budget. He had the only production company that was starring in it. He hired everybody. Ms. Gutierrez Reed is very, very young in the industry in terms of being an armorer. So he's in charge of everything. He's in charge of hiring everyone from A to Z. And he wants to get this done fast. I think the original shooting schedule was only three weeks long in New Mexico. So there's a very quick shoot, and there were complaints from people that were working on the film, doing all the little technical stuff that they have to do. They were all union employees, they were complaining about not getting paid on time, not getting as much money as they were promised. They were, I think, too previous, or there was at least one previous incident on the set where a farm went off or was supposed to go up, something like that. It was very, a little chaotic, a little quick, a little reckless. He wanted to get this done. He wanted to get it done as fast as possible, save a few dollars. And he did not endear himself to all the people that were working on the film, whatsoever, union employees, non-human employees, and fellow actors, and anyone else. He was probably, as you can imagine, a little more cervic, a domineering, but in the quickness of trying to get things done, save two protocols, which are standard in the industry, we're definitely overlooked. Make it around that. That was a reckless shooting set. - You know, I want to play the judge, and this is the judge that's sentenced to Hanukkah Tirazarid, who happens to be the same judge who's going to sit on the Alec Baldwin case. Her name is Judge Mary Mallo Summer. Let's see what she has to say here. - Now we followed when Stryle didn't mince words towards the film's armor before sentencing her to prison. For all the fanfare and pundits in finger pointing, that has been going on for over two years, we were able to see a jury of her peers, who confirmed it could listen to the evidence, receive in court, and determine the facts and apply the law. They found Ms. Butcher's guilty of involuntary manslaughter. What were some of the poignant facts that came out during the trial? In her police interview, she proudly owned her position as armor. On October 21st, 2021, chaos ended after the film crew walked out. Ms. Hutchness and others were trying to rig, if you will, how they were going to keep filming. And what was the defendant doing while waiting? She was loading Alec Baldwin's gun. Did she have enough time to load the weapon safely? Lenny, did she load the weapon? Yes, with dummies and a live round. Did she check what she was loading? No, why? Well, in her own words, most recently, in her job, she didn't need to be shaking the gun is all the time. Did she check after that? No. And while you've heard her concerns about how she'll never work again as an armor, leading up to the trial, have her concerns changed? No. Here's what she says. This whole thing has been a character attack on her. Just recently, in her allocation, I'm not a monster. And what this, oh, is it done? They talk about how much content on the phone they're talking about how much of Hannah's life they could take up and that this is messing up her modeling career. This is while she's incarcerated, waiting for a sense. And what did she say about the debt of Helena? Hannah is dismissive of the judge talking about someone dying as a result of her absence. Hannah says she's looking at 13 months, which is ridiculous of what happened. Hannah says that people have accidents and people die. It's an unfortunate part of the life, but it doesn't mean she should be in jail. A conditional discharge is not appropriate. And the second option of leaving you in the detention center will be giving you a pass you do not deserve. I think I hear you take accountability in your allocation. You said they were sorry. You were sorry, but not you were sorry for what you did. You were sorry for and hope they can find peace. It was your attorney that had to tell the court that you were remorseful. It's unclear for now what fate lies for Al Baldwin during his trial, what could more have been done from Baldwin's team to prevent the trial from happening? I see parallels between Hannah Gutierrez reads "Allocution" and not accepting responsibility. And Alec Baldwin going on his infomercials after the shooting of Hannah Gutierrez, or excuse of Helena Hutchins. And I could see this judge sitting in that same judge box in her black robes and saying, "You are a disgrace." You went on national television and took no responsibility and that is providing he gets convicted. I'm not saying he's gonna get convicted, but how was his behavior any different than Hannah Gutierrez read? In my mind and in the mind of many people and no matter how many times he says he didn't pull the trigger, science and the FBI investigation tells us he absolutely did pull the trigger, Phil. Billy, I just wanna piggyback a little bit about what Mike was saying. There were up to 15 safety standards in the industry that were violated. This wasn't the first time that someone was hurt with a firearm on the set of a movie. And it happened several times in the past. I think we know the cases. It was something that standards are put in place and they didn't follow them. They broke protocol in many, many respects. So, no matter what Baldwin comes out with at trial, what regard to a defense, they're gonna look at that videotape that you're talking about where he went on with George Stephanopoulos. - It's not for Lefoguss, yeah. - Yeah, when he went on with him, he tried to play the victim, so to speak. He absolutely, positively denies pulling the trigger. The FBI examination of that firearm stated that the only way that that gun could have fired, if the trigger was pulled, we did several shows on it. We did demonstrations. We had experts that talked about how the mechanism of the firearm works. And he's denying any type of accountability from self. He's putting it on other people. And I think that she's pointing the finger at other people. She was just convicted. Now, he's gonna probably take the same stand and point the finger at. Someone put the gun in my hand. How was I supposed to know it was loaded? Well, there's standards that say you're supposed to check it before you put it in your hand, or have it physically checked. You're supposed to do a physical inspection of that firearm. - Oh, Phil, let me just interrupt you. What is drilled into our head at the range? - That's right. - Before you holster your weapon, do a physical and visual inspection of your weapon. So he was told by David Holes. First of all, the Hanukkah Tirah's reed loaded that gun. So she put the live round in there, and that was determined through a painstaking bit of investigation. She now gives the gun to David Holes. That's a violation of protocol right there. The armor is the only one who's supposed to hand the gun to the actor. - Right. - While the gun is handed to, it shouldn't be handed to the actor and said cold gun, it should be shown that it's a cold gun. Do a physical and a visual inspection of that firearm and show it to the actor. - And there's also an obligation from the actor. The actor was supposed to say, wait a second. I want to see what this gun is loaded with. He didn't follow that obligation. These are some of the safety standards and protocols that we talked about being violated. So I think he's got a very large hill to climb to get an acquittal in this case. I think there's going to be a lot of witnesses in this case. And if I were him, I would have my attorney speaking to the prosecutor about some type of a plea. 'Cause I think this is-- - No, no, no, that's coming gone. That's over. The plea was offered, he turned it down, or then no, actually the prosecution pulled the plea back. - What was the plea? Do you know what the plea was, Billy? Was it no jail plea? I'm sure it had to be a felony conviction. Was it a no jail, Mike? - No jail plea and a fine and a probation. The same thing that David Hall's got. - Yeah, I would feel comfortable with that. A felony conviction on his record, a no jail time and perhaps safety courses and a probation period, I would be comfortable with that. I mean, listen, I don't think that Alec Baldwin intentionally meant to harm Helena Hutchins. I think that's really gonna give you. - We're not even talking about intentional. Intentional murder, intentional death cause death. That's murder, criminally, negatively causing murder. No, there's no intent. You criminal negligence leads to your negligence cause another death and that's what we're talking about. That's what the law is talking about. Forbidden Planet from the chat. You know Alex Lawyer must have told him not to admit to anything. You know, Forbidden Planet, he couldn't keep his ass off television though. - Yeah, he couldn't shut up. - His lawyer said shut up, but he had to be on TV as the narcissist he is, you know, and extolling his innocence. No dude, just keep your mouth shut, you know, but no narcissist is able to keep their mouth shut because then they wouldn't be a narcissist. Mike? - Yeah, Billy, he didn't do himself any good by going on that Stephanopoulos interview. He thought maybe George Stephanopoulos would give him some mobile questions, easy ones that he could, you know, real buns. But the idea that he could say, I did not pull the trigger. What he should have said was, I don't remember pulling the trigger. I wasn't consciously trying to pull the trigger. And the fact that my finger twitched on the trigger was a complete accident. I never meant to hurt her. I am so sorry if her family could forgive me. I'm, you know, I'm a good person and this was just a terrible, terrible tragedy. I'm owning up to it. I'm gonna make it right by her family, however I can. That's what he should have said. We know, and if he had the least bit of any kind of rehearsals or any kind of training, it's always in, I remember at the range, 20 years going to the range in the NYPD. Safety, safety, safety, safety. And if he had any sort of familiarity, he would have checked himself and he would have realized that you have to be really careful. No matter what you think is that you're loaded, that's loaded in that cylinder, you have to be, you have to be really careful. He didn't do himself any favors. And if the prosecution gets a chance to play that tape with Stephanopoulos, they'll do it. - Of course they're gonna play it. - Of course they're gonna make it. Mike, I have to disagree with you about what he should have said. He should have said nothing but regard to what happened. - No, that's right. - He should have said, the only thing he should have said was this, this was a horrible accident. My heart goes out to the family. He should not have talked about anything to do with the date that this incident happened. Whether we pulled the trigger, I would have not talked about that at all. All I would have said publicly was, I really have no comment until this matter finds its way through the system. I just, my heart goes out to the family and it was a horrible accident, it was a tragedy. That's what he should have stressed. If he starts getting into conversation regarding I didn't pull the trigger, now he's gonna be held accountable. Because like Billy just said, they're gonna show that video tape and cut. And you can't have it both ways. When you have an FBI expert saying, the only way that this gun could have gone off was if the trigger was pulled. But now you're on national TV with George Stephanopoulos saying, I absolutely, positively did not pull the trigger. So he put himself kind in the trick bag with that. I wouldn't have said anything but you know Phil, the other thing was is that every single journalist you read Brothers of the New York Times, any journalist, print journalist, they continue to say the gun somehow went off. No one in the state, he pulled the trigger. That's what happened, he pulled the damn trigger. Oh, the gun he was holding went off. No, it did not. He pulled the trigger, stop. And they refuse to be honest. You know, it's just, let me play a little bit of law and crime before I get a little, the Irish comes out and yeah. Besides in this case and their intentions are running high. Baldwin is accused of involuntary manslaughter and the death of cinematographer, Helena Hutchins. But he says he never pulled the trigger. It wasn't in the script for the trigger to be pulled. Well, the trigger wasn't pulled, I didn't pull the trigger. There it is, there it is right there and that's you know, and but you know again, his friend, how many of us could go on national television and extol all the virtues of our innocence with a guy throwing beach balls to him, not even soft balls, beach balls to him. And you know, letting him tell his story on every national television station. You know, and which again was a huge, huge mistake. That interview was years ago. So will Baldwin refresh his story and tell it to a new audience? You run the risk of a jury saying, well, where does the line end? Where is the acting begin and where does the acting start? A stop. But that's not the only task Baldwin's defense now faces. Baldwin's team has to make sure this jury understands. If they want to get an acquittal, the jury understands that a film set is not real life. A film set is unlike anything else that anyone has ever experienced before. - The trial comes months after the conviction of Rust armor Hannah Gutierrez Reid. And experts say New Mexico prosecutors are still riding that hot. - You know how to get a conviction in front of a Santa Fe County jury and they know what facts work. - But that's not to say we won't see anything new. - This is really the prosecutor's chance to bring out everything that we haven't seen yet. - One thing's for sure. All eyes will be on New Mexico come next week. - And it's kind of a tortured history of this case. - To get a better idea of what to expect at our Baldwin's coming trial, we spoke to former prosecutor and defense attorney John Day. - You're right there in New Mexico on the ground in Santa Fe. What is the reaction there at this coming trial that out of Baldwin an A-list celebrity is going to be on trial? - Well, there's a lot of attention in this town being paid to it. New Mexico is a poor state. And so we have this film and TV program where the state kicks back tax credits to film productions, right? So Santa Fe is the scene of a lot of filming these days for the last couple of years. It's almost a billion dollars that the film industry spends in New Mexico and people are aware of what's going on. A lot of productions are shooting. A lot of Westerns are shooting. That's why Baldwin's production company came out here. They were shooting this relatively low budget Western film at a film ranch, one of these old West towns that's just a little bit out of town. It looks like an old West town that's been recreated kind of like Disneyland. And they do a lot of productions there. So there's been a lot of attention paid to this because the film business in New Mexico is one of the few positive industries that we have. And the Baldwin shooting has guarded a ton of attention around town. All this started on October 21st, 2021, when emergency responders were called to the Bananza Creek Ranch in Santa Fe, New Mexico. At the time, the location was being used as a set for the low budget Western movie Rust, the movies producer and star Alec Baldwin. It was between takes when rehearsing a scene that Baldwin's cult 45 handgun went off, cinematographer, Helena, - She just said it too. She just said it was between takes, the gun went off. You know, that, you know, gives him no culpability. When you say the gun is the culprit here, not the person holding it. - Chins and director Joel Sousa were both shocked. Sousa's injuries were severe. The bullet had lodged in his spine and he was taken from the set by an ambulance. He was treated at a Santa Fe hospital and survived, but the severity was much worse for Hutchins. The bullet had passed through her upper body and she was in need of immediate care. Hutchins was airlifted to a trauma center and Albuquerque, where she later died. - I do have some very unfortunate is to tell you she didn't get it. - Yeah. - So I don't stop the hospital, but the other person involved didn't make it. - That was just the start of the controversy. In the month after the shooting, news broke about alleged negligence on the set. Before the deadly shooting, there had been two accidental firings of blank rounds and several crew members had resigned out of safety concerns. The investigation soon zeroed in on Baldwin because he was holding the weapon, but also 24-year-old Hannah Gutierrez Reid, the movie's armorer. Reports noted that Gutierrez Reid was inexperienced as an armorer and prosecutors alleged negligence. The timeline of the case has a bit of a back and forth. With a switch of prosecutors in New Mexico, charges filed dropped and then filed once again. There was a bit of back and forth because after this happened way back in 2021, we weren't sure whether charges were going to be filed and they were then they were dropped and they were charged once again. So why do you think that prosecutors down in New Mexico really stuck with this involuntary manslaughter this time around? - Well, you've got to go back and it's kind of a tortured history of this case. You know, there was a DA involved, the elected district attorney in Santa Fe and then she brought in a special prosecutor who then had to drop out because she was running for office and then they brought in new special prosecutors. So, I mean, it's been a bit of a mess getting to this point in the prosecution, but at the end of the day, the theory seems to be by all the different prosecutors on this case that in New Mexico, if you're handling a gun that's a real gun, you are responsible for what comes out of the end of the barrel. You are responsible for knowing what's in there and so their theory seems to be, doesn't matter if it was a film set, it doesn't matter what the circumstances were, this was a real gun and whoever was holding it is gonna be held responsible for whatever happens to come out of that barrel. - So, again, that sort of lays some culpability right to Alec Baldwin, yeah, yeah. I mean, look, we already know the armora was sentenced to 18 months in prison. She's already been convicted for criminally negligent homicide, all right? So, she's already been shown negligent. Who now, David Hall's, who the armora handed the gun to, he pled guilty also, and he was given, I think, a six month suspended sentence. Now, the person who pulled the trigger is on trial, and as much as they play that George Snuffle-offa-Guess interview of, well, no, I didn't pull the trigger, I didn't pull the trigger. Science and investigators have proven that he absolutely did pull that trigger, Mike. - Yeah, Billy, don't know if answer butts about that. And the strange thing was, I was always on the impression that they used fake firearms and blanks that they didn't use a real, that's a 45 caliber pieta, Italian-made revolver that's made to look like one of those old Westerns, like John Wayne, 44 caliber, 45 caliber guns in the Old West. That's a 45 slug, a real slug. It went through Sousa, and then it hit Hutchins. - No, it's the other way around, Mike. - Yeah, right through Hutchins and then into Sousa. I mean, you could, but by the grace of God, Sousa did not pass away either. There's an old adage in law, and it's called the Inneglesons law. It's called Rez Ipsoloki Tour. That's Latin for it speaks for itself. If something happens, like say a plane falls out of the sky, they're not supposed to do that. In fact, the plane falls out of the sky, that in itself, we understand, was caused by negligence. When this kind of thing happens, and someone has shot and killed on a set, or seriously injured on a set, there's absolutely, it's the injury speaks for itself. It wouldn't have happened except for some sort of negligence. And being the fact that Baldwin hired everybody, he was the boss of the set, he was running everything. He can't really escape in any way, shape, or form his responsibility. He was in charge of the whole thing, and therefore, he has some level of criminal responsibility for the set that he created. It's his set, and the fact that someone died, that shows that it's negligence per se, it would not have happened. You would not have had a death without negligence occurring. So, he's got a long way, as Phil said, he's got a long way to go. - You know, Phil, besides the fact that Alec Baldwin undoubtedly pulled the trigger, we know that. That's been proven. He was also a producer who was responsible for safety on that set, and he totally poo-poos that, you know, "Oh, no, I had nothing to do with that." Oh, you know, you're a producer. You have everything to do with that. If you're gonna wear that producer's hat, and then something bad happens, you can't shirk your responsibilities and say, "No, let me throw this producer hat away," 'cause I had nothing to do with that, Phil. - Yeah, excuse me, Billy, in the industry, when you're an on-location producer, I wrote this down, you have an added responsibility and a duty to protect the safety of the crew. I think with that statement right there, that puts it in a nutshell, he could say whatever he wants. He was the on-site producer, and the responsibility will lay at his feet for safety on the set. They were running fast and loose with safety regulations in the days prior. People had walked off the set that were working on the set, that weren't getting paid in different reasons. They were actually using that firearm to take target practice. Big time no-no that there were live rounds on the set. Would a gun that is a real gun? Like Mike said, he wasn't sure if they used real guns. Yes, sometimes they do use real guns, but they have specific rounds. And even if it's pointed in the direction of where the person that's filming, the camera person, the cameraman, they put up a piece of plexiglass in between that firearm and the camera person, because even with a blank, it could be a gunpowder residue or a different, maybe a little bit of wax that holds the gunpowder in place, that can become a projectile that might not be deadly, but you won't want to get hit with it. God forbid you get hit in the eye. So they put up a piece of plexiglass. All of these safety protocols were not followed, the standards were not met, and I think it's all gonna fall right at the feet of Alec Baldwin, and he's gonna have to answer for this. Absolutely. Folks, this is police off the cuff, real crime stories. If you like real crime, true crime from a police perspective, then you're in the right place. And if you're not subscribed, go on our YouTube, hit that subscribe button, give us a thumbs up, ring that bell. If you want to contribute to us financially, we have a Patreon with four different levels. We also have a YouTube channel membership with count 'em, five different levels, and our YouTube channel members has been growing by leaps and bounds, all because of you guys, and we thank you for all of that. Mike, one of the things I'm seeing suggested, and I can't believe it's even being suggested, is that Alec Baldwin should testify. I think that is a mistake. In 99.9% of the time, for a defendant to testify on his or her behalf, your thoughts. - Billy, I think he's gonna want to. If I'm his attorney, I'm gonna say don't. He's not, I don't think he has it in 'em. He's gonna say something that's gonna be probably a little bit off the wall, and you don't want that statement, 'cause if he gets on the stand, then all of his previous statements about this case automatically become relevant when the prosecutor stands up and cross examines 'em at the end of the trial. So, if he says, I just can't believe it, I just can't believe that I can't do it. I didn't do it, the gun was damaged, whatever. And then, you bring in this, then after, that's all done, you get the prosecutor in there showing the video saying, okay, as the commentator said, which is the lie, which is the truth? Which, in which statement to Stephanopoulos, were you acting or lying, or here? Are you acting or lying? Are you telling the truth now in front of this jury? I don't think he'll score points with the jury. I don't see it. I don't think with his personality. I think you're right. I think he would actually damage himself more. It's up to him in the final call. If I'm his attorney, I really wouldn't want him testifying, no way. - No, I think that would be a huge mistake. Let me play a little bit of this of what the trial is gonna probably look like. It'd be very, you know, very crucial that his legal team prepare him if he does decide to take the stand. - The interview Ahoryan referred to has now become synonymous with the case against Baldwin. Just month after the shooting, he appeared on Good Morning America with George Stephanopoulos. And Baldwin claims he never pulled the trigger. - It wasn't in the script for who the trigger he pulled. - Well, the trigger wasn't pulled, I didn't pull the trigger. - So you never pulled the trigger? - No, no, no. I would never point it kind of an important trigger, I'd never. - And it seems like all roads lead back to that Good Morning America interview that you referenced where he said he never pulled the trigger. And we saw in Hannah Gussiara's Reads trial that experts actually testified and said the trigger had to have been pulled in order for the gun to go off. So is it possible if Baldwin takes the stand that he kind of recants what he said on Good Morning America? - I think it's possible that he might either clarify or attribute some of the inconsistencies to either shock or remembering things wrong. I mean, he was interviewed just after it had happened. We saw some footage of him being very distressed. It's understandably very upsetting and distressing and shocking for someone to, you know, anytime, you know, you take someone's life and especially in that circumstance where he had no reason to believe that the gun had a live round in it. He's been an actor for decades. He's worked with guns for decades. Obviously, something like this has never happened. So I think that, you know, it's not uncommon for some statements that are made. I'll say even, you know, I had a car accident the other day and I was trying to remember some things that happened and I might have been off with some things. And then if I think about it later, maybe it was, you know, this had happened or that had happened a little bit differently than I remember. So I think it's normal that in the shock of that, but when you have these sort of grand denials, I think that's where he might get into some trouble. - When it comes to the question of whether Baldwin will take the stand. O'Horean says there are several factors to consider. And leading up to the trial, I'm sure that Baldwin's team is really prepping this, obviously together doing their research but talking to their client too. So when they're heading into this trial, they're likely going through the pros and cons of him taking the stand. What do you think those might be? - Yeah, I think, you know, like we talked about, the pros are going to be, he can address some of those inconsistencies. And again, perhaps finding, you know, reasons why there might have been some inconsistencies either respect. - Mike, I don't agree with her one bit. First of all, if he takes the stand, can't the prosecution also bring in some of his prior past run-ins with law enforcement? - Yeah, yeah, sure. - So that's bad news in itself. It shows that, you know, he's a person with a short fuse, you know. - Yeah, but would there be relevance with that, Billy? I don't know if there would be, I don't know if a judge would allow that. I mean, it might not be, it's kind of prejudicial to the witness, I would think. If it had relevance to, you know, this is not like he got into an argument with somebody. This was obviously a reckless shooting, but I don't know if that would make a past a judge. You're Mike, what do you think? - If it is, like say, for instance, he got disorderly conduct summons when he was 19. No, definitely not. But if he got into any sort of aggressive behavior and altercation with somebody, you know, that sort of thing, or if there was any other convictions that showed any sort of recklessness, like driving drunk, things like that. If he has anything like that on his record that can show a state of mind that is similar to the state of mind that he's being charged with, in this case, negligence, recklessness, then it would become relevant. - He's got into public conversations with reporters and such. I don't think stuff like that. - That's probably not, not right. - I don't see that coming into the case, but I mean-- - From the conviction. - Yeah, there's a lot here that's going to come into this case, 100%, and I don't think-- - One of the things that I wanted to sort of point out is that if he has a short fuse in dealing with day-to-day life, how well would he do on the stand where some sharp prosecutor will be hitting him with questions that he will not like? Will his short fuse blow up and will he blow up? And that will blow up his whole testimony. - That's probably a good reason why his attorney probably wouldn't let him testify. I think it would be very, very dangerous for him to get on the stand based on that interview that he did, and it wouldn't surprise me if in the future if law schools will play that videotape and say, have your client never speak, and this is a reason why. Look at this videotape that Alec Baldwin did and play it. I mean, he's making very definitive assutations about what happened, that he didn't pull the trigger. He's saying it with conviction, and you're going to have an expert that's going to testify the only way the gun could have gone off was by pulling the trigger. Now, did he intentionally pull the trigger? Perhaps he was drawing it, his gun hit the trigger and it went off, he should not have made any statement about it prior to this. And a lot of maneuvering was done, a lot of maneuvering. He maneuvered with the husband, Matt Hutchins, and settled at an out of court settlement, and he was actually given a producer credit on the film that was actually finished. So he did a lot of maneuvering. He thought that this interview with George Stephanopoulos was probably set up by his publishers that he was going to get out in front of it. And I think that's what the original intent was. And unfortunately, it doesn't look like that's going to be the case. - You know, Phil, getting out in front of a case like this shouldn't even be in your vocabulary. Get out in front of it and your advice of your attorney would be to shut your mouth. That is how you get out in front of this. You don't get out in front of it. I went, that term is from Chris Cuomo from NewsNation. Get out in front of it. No, you don't do that, you shut your mouth, you know? Because now he's got to live with all the things that he said, look, it's clear many people do not like Alec Baldwin, but that should have nothing to do with this trial. This trial is about criminal negligence. It's about criminal negligence and taking accountability as to what occurred. And that, in a nutshell, is what the whole trial is and should be about. Now, his past conduct, if he, in fact, gets convicted, then that could be problematic. Yeah, then, Mr. Judge could say, you're doing every bit of 18 months 'cause you have no remorse. You took no responsibility. That could hurt him in that vein. But as far as the jury, they should be looking at criminally negligent homicide. Mike. Yeah, Billy, you know, when they, they're going to see all the video from the actual that was left over from that morning when they were doing the practicing. He did a cross draw maneuver. And I believe he actually cocked the hammer. So we, you know, we've shot 38 and when you cocked the hammer, you need very, very little pressure. Maybe two pounds of pressure, not even. And the gun, and the gun will release the hammer, the trigger will release the hammer, the gun will go off. So perhaps in his mind, he didn't realize what he was doing or he didn't realize the consequences of actually the difference between pulling a firearm, the trigger and all the pressure it needs were cocking the hammer and then the very, the difference 'cause he has very little or to no experience with probably real firearms. And therefore, you know, he didn't really understand the dynamics of what was going on. But it's a really simple fact, circumstances for the jury. And other than his status as an A1 actor and the crazy stuff that he said in public, you know, this is a real simple set of facts. And I hope the jury does not get swayed by the fact that of who he actually is, it could be Joe Schmo sitting there. This could have occurred, say in some summer stock production of some drama, you know, and then you wouldn't even know who these people were. It's all because of the fact that he's an A-list actor and he's got a, he probably has an excellent defense team that's probably worth a lot more than anyone else could afford. But other than that, real simple, real basic ideas in this case, and I hope the jury analyze it without thinking about who he actually is. - You know, Phil, he might brought up a good point. And, you know, when a gun is cocked, it needs about two pounds of pressure to go off. You and I and Professor Mike, as New York City cops, we've probably stopped hundreds of people in the street at gunpoint, at gunpoint, absolutely. - Phil, where was your finger when you stopped them at gunpoint? - Was not on the trigger, it was on the side of the trigger. - People don't understand that. My finger was on the side of the trigger guard. If I thought, if I was getting shot at, that's a different point of view. My finger's on the trigger. But if I stopped someone on the street, there's no way my finger's on that trigger because you could just get startled and accidentally shoot somebody. That's how easy it is to pull to fire a gun, especially a Glock 19 goes into single action after the first shot is fired. - You know, the other thing is we get that drilled into our heads not only because of the things that you just stated. Suppose you're stopping somebody, you're finger on the trigger and you trip and fall. Your instincts are going to be to try and grab onto something. You're going to, you know, accidental discharge. You're going to pull the trigger. So we're trained to keep our finger off the trigger until you're about to engage with a gunfight, a gun battle that you're going to fight a gun. So I think that based on his public perception prior to this incident, that's probably why they did that interview. His perception was very bad. He was nasty. He was rude with reporters. There were several instances where he, I think he was given a ticket for harassment in the past in New York City. So I think that that interview was done to try and come out. Oh, look at his perception. Look at his public perception. He's really not as bad as everybody thinks he is. But he put his foot in his mouth by making those very, very convicted statements about not pulling the trigger. - Yeah, well, I think what we all said is that this goes down to criminal negligence. - Fans, of course, right? So I think it's possible to get jurors who don't really feel one way or another about Alec Baldwin in particular, but I think it'll be harder to sort of parse out emotions people might have about celebrities such as, for example, they believe they're about the law or actually putting them on a pedestal. - When it comes time to arguments and testimony, we have an idea of what angle each side may take. The prosecution alleges Baldwin is guilty of involuntary manslaughter following a history of negligence on the set. Before the deadly shooting, there had been two accidental firings of blank rounds and several crew members had already resigned out of safety concerns. Prosecutors will also probably point to Baldwin's Good Morning America interview when he claims the trigger was never pulled. As we saw in the state's case against Hannah Gootsier as read, experts say the trigger had to have been pulled for the weapon to fire at all. - Now, we understand from previous testimony that you sent the gun that was being used by Mr. Baldwin to be FBI for testing, is that correct? - Yes, we did. And prior to the testing being done with the mallet, were you notified that that testing could potentially result in damage to the gun? - Yes. - And what was the reason that you proceeded with the testing anyway? - We proceeded with the testing because Mr. Baldwin had made statements that he didn't pull the trigger and I think his exact statement was that the gun just went off. So we needed to figure out how to disprove that theory or that statement and that was the way that was proposed to us and what the FBI can do. - We're not entirely sure what the defense have of their sleeves, but experts theorize that Baldwin's attorneys will highlight the difference between a movie set and real life. When Baldwin was handed the gut, first assistant director David Hall said it was cold, meaning it wasn't loaded. Hall's was later charged and pleaded no contest to negligent use of a deadly weapon. So as it turned out, the weapon Hall's handed Baldwin had a live round inside and vast but led to the deadly shooting. But Baldwin's team will probably say he believed the gun was safe. Those are arguments we could expect, but O'Horean says it's possible other areas of Baldwin's life are also included. - Really zeroing in on the celebrity factor. Do you think that's something that the defense or the prosecution might bring up Baldwin's history with the law, his status as a celebrity, his past history and movies and TV, is any of that relevant? - Well, on the one hand, if they feel like it's an elephant in the room, I think that it might be worthwhile to sort of address the idea of acting or whether he's acting or whether he has years of training behind him and how that might affect his testimony. But again, I really think that's something that should be handled in Blondier. With respect to his acting itself, the fact that he's an actor and his experience, decades of experience is absolutely relevant. So we would expect that to be brought up and addressed. This is somebody who has worked on other sets that have guns before, right? So he should know how to handle guns. On the one hand, from the defense perspective, he should never have anticipated that there was a live round. So he should have been able to rely on the safety of the set from the prosecutor's perspective. This is an actor who understands what sets are in life, understands that there is gun safety, but there's training. And he should have done the safety training. He should have checked and double checked the gun. So there's both sides of that, but his experience as an actor, irrespective of his professional training with respect to his skill, is entirely relevant in this circumstance. It also seems as though prosecutors are going to highlight the acting portion of things, but additionally the fact that he was a producer on the movie. So maybe it's not necessarily the responsibility of an actor to make sure that the gun is 100% safe, but potentially it is the responsibility of the producer to make sure that everything would be safe on the set 'cause they're kind of overseeing everything and making sure that nothing could go wrong. - I think she hit that on the head because he's wearing two hats here. He is an actor on this set, but he's also a producer. A producer who apparently didn't attend the safety training that was given by the staff here. A producer who allowed Hanukkah Tierra's read to be hired as an unqualified armorer because they were trying to cut course. A producer who was trying to cut course at every stage that made this an unsafe set. So all of those things can absolutely be brought up by the prosecutor and one of the things we all know here through living with firearms for 40 years, most of us, we still have guns, right? All of us? - Yes. - You still? - Yeah. - Like 27 years of my police career at 13 years as a civilian, that's 40 years I've been living with a firearm. I've never ever had an accidental discharge and I live with a gun and you live with a gun. And one of the things I always found when you live with a gun was to always do things the exact same way every time so there can be no mistake. You go wherever you go, you take out in a semi-automatic, you take out the magazine, then you slide the slide back to eject the round and then you put it wherever you put it, lock it. You lock it in a safe or lock it wherever you do. And you do that the same way every time and that way you're not leaving your gun hanging around so a young child can get ahold of it. You're also making it safe for yourself also, Phil. - Absolutely. I think that all the years of training that we went through puts that kind of, that mental state that, you know, this is a firearm, it's dangerous and it needs to be maintained in a safe and secure way. And like you said, you're gonna, on an automatic, you're gonna take the clip out and you're gonna hit the slide a few times even though one round pops out. You're gonna hit a few times and like you always say, Bill, physical and visual inspection, make sure that that thing isn't loaded and then maybe you sit down to clean it or put it away, whatever you're gonna do with it. So if you follow these protocols and it's always pointed in a safe direction whether it's loaded or unloaded, that's the thing that they always drilled for your brain's head. If you do make a mistake and God forbid there is a round in the chamber. If it's in a safe direction, a safe direction may be down, it may be up, whatever the safe direction is, away from obviously from any humans, you're not gonna have this type of a situation where an accidental discharge goes off and someone is killed and injured. In this particular case, I mean, the fact that these rounds were even on that set, that's just so mind-boggling, if there were no live rounds on that set and that's really the question that they had, they get there, Hanagotieira's read would be alive and there would be no trial for Alec Baldwin. Just, it's terrible. - Oh, you mean Helena Hutchins would be alive? - Yes, I'm sorry, Helena Hutchins. And I think there needs to be a justice for this woman. Now, is justice gonna be him going to jail for 20 years? I don't think that that's justice. I think that him having either a felony conviction and maybe a suspended sentence, some of that nature, but it just cannot go unchecked. This is something that should not have happened. And I think it needs to set the standard for the future for all the productions. And there have been many actors that came and spoke out against this, that-- - Well, it's gonna say that a very prominent actor, and I won't say his name, he said that he always has the armorer demonstrate in front of him that the gun has the proper dummy rounds in it and he checks it and shows him, actually shows it to him in front of him. And he satisfied that it's the gun is safe. But to rely, I remember I used to have a commanding officer and he would ask me a question and he would say, who told you that I would say officer so-and-so? And he would say, would you state your career? Would you state your career on that guy? And I go, I guess you're right, yeah, I wouldn't. But it's the same sort of question. Oh, David Hall's told you it was a cold gun. Did you, would you state your life on that now? 'Cause now his life is on trial now because he trusted someone that did something, maybe David Hall's wasn't unprofessional that day he was. He didn't do something professional. He violated protocols, he violated safety. And the armorer, Hanigatira's Reed, was even worse than he was, Mike. - Billy, yeah, just think about it. Just think about you and me and Phil. How many times on patrol, we pulled our firearm out and pointed at someone. Probably each of us probably several hundred times without a single malfunction, without a single accidental discharge. - Numerous times at all, Mike, numerous times at all. - Oh, you're in a busy prison. - Oh, yeah, you go in a busy prison. You might be four, five, six, eight times a tour, depending on if it's a hot Friday night, hot Saturday night and summertime. So you do this. And these are, and we're dealing with, when you're 21, 22, 23 years old, coming on the job, you know, the NYPD has a training that can turn a civilian into a police officer in six months and put the protocols, as you say, in your mind. Repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition. Alex Baldwin can't escape from the fact that he created this, the behavior on the set, on the movie set because he is producer. He can't get rid of that hat. He has to wear it, he has to own it. And no matter what, he was thinking in his mind about what he was doing at the time that he was drawing and putting his gun back and wholesome stuff, that sort of stuff. The recklessness did not begin there. The recklessness began already when the set was being run recklessly. And that, from being run recklessly, led to that accidental discharge and the killing of Helma Hutchins and Joel Sousa. And that's something that he cannot escape no matter how he tries to dance around it. - You know, Mike, the NYPD firearms range in Rodman's neck has had thousands and thousands of cops come through that range over, I don't know, how many years it's been in operation, you know, 100 years, I don't know. And they've never had someone shot. You know, they've had a bullet hit the stanchion and ricochets, but they've never had an accident, which is an incredible, and that's not by accident. That is because the safety protocols they put in place do not allow for accidents, do not allow for criminal negligence, do not allow for people doing stupid things because they're told what is expected and that if they don't comply, they're pulled off the line. - You know, Billy, I'd like to play devil's advocate for a minute. You know, his defense attorney may come out and say things like, well, my client is not responsible for this when you had an armorer on set who's now doing jail time. And the assistant director called out cold gun. So what was my client's responsibility? My client says he didn't pull the trigger, perhaps the gun malfunction. We don't know if the gun could even be examined at this point because it was damaged by the FBI. So would all of those things being said and believe me, they'll stress a lot of those points that I just made, that little bit of doubt, there could be, and we don't wanna see that, there could be an acquittal, or there could be a hung jury because they're gonna put on a strong defense, I'm sure of it. And like they did in the Gutierrez case, they pointed the finger at other people. So I think they're gonna take that same position. Alec Baldwin is not guilty of involuntary manslaughter. He was told it was a cold gun. The rounds weren't put in the gun by Alec Baldwin and they were put in the gun by Hannah Goode Harris Reed who's now serving 18 months in jail. So all of those things are gonna go, you know. - What comes to my mind, after you saying that, is what I learned when I was in first grade. If he told you to jump off the Brooklyn Bridge, would you do it? - Good point. - And Alec Baldwin was told it was a cold gun. Should he have believed it? - Well, there's an actor in Hollywood that you didn't mention his name that said just that, even though I'm told this is a cold gun and this is a high profile actor, I still check it. So that was his responsibility, the fact that he was-- - There were two of 'em and one of 'em was, what's his name, the guy, George Clooney. - Yeah, Clooney, George Clooney, I can say his name 'cause he went public with it. And he went public, said, no, I always check the gun or I have the person check it in front of me. - So-- - They show him, they show him what's inside. When you're using a real firearm, that's the same, and all the actors have to go through that safety course, they all do. And listen, bottom line is, we know he didn't intentionally try to hurt this woman, it was an accident, obviously, but to go out and do all the maneuvering that he did and say, I never pulled the trigger and all of that. It's just, it's like a slap in the face to the family, I think, that's how I feel about it. - Leaf Grahamson, should real guns be in movies at all? - Good point. - That's a good point right now. And I think that they're gonna get to the point, perhaps from this movie, that perhaps there won't be real guns in movies anymore, and from what I understand, they don't need to use a real gun. They can just put the sound and everything in after the fact, and but I think it helps the actor and the actors react to the sound that everything when it's done live. - Billy, in New York, when we had Steve Gardell on, Sergeant Steve Gardell that was from the movie TV unit, we had him on in the past. In New York, they do use a real firearm. However, there's lead put into the barrel that would prevent a projectile from traveling through that barrel. So they use, even though they're using a dummy round that it'll just make a, it'll discharge a flash and make a sound, there's no way that a projectile can travel through that barrel. That's the standard that should be all full out the country for any production. No way can this firearm that we're gonna play with, because that's what they're doing there acting, should be able to fire a projectile. That should be the standard across the country, period, end of story. - 100%. I wanna play a little bit of this. This is the judge from the case and why she made her rulings. - After Alec Baldwin said this. - It wasn't in the script for the trigger to be called. Well, the trigger wasn't pulled, I didn't pull the trigger. - So you never pulled the trigger? - No, no, no. I would never point it gonna open a pull of trigger. I'm never. - FBI firearms examiner Bryce Ziegler testified about the testing that he conducted. - And how many times did you test fire this right over? - I test fired this particular one 12 times. - And during each one of those 12 times, did you observe any of these issues that you just mentioned that will cause you concern that maybe this son could now function? - No, there was nothing out or abnormal about this during the initial test trial. - And when you did the test fire, did you check the different hammer cracking positions? - Yes, I did. - And at any point during each one of those 12 test fires did the gun discharge by itself without a pull of the trigger? - No. - Now there was testimony at a recent hearing that the FBI and the sheriff's office were aware that the accidental discharge testing could destroy the weapon but they didn't notify the defense. Ziegler testified about the testing that he conducted. - And how did you conduct this trigger pull test? - So essentially if you picture a wire coat hammer, so the long wire with a hook on the top and I orient the firearm vertically so the muzzle would be pointed straight up at the ceiling, I would hook this, essentially the coat hammer portion of the hook inside the trigger or resting on the trigger and then I can add static weights to the bottom of that wire. And so I can continue to add weights until I reach the point where it's starting to pull the trigger as I pick up on the firearm. So the amount of weight that's added, that's gonna be the amount of force that's required to pull the trigger. And what amount of force was required to pull the trigger for this and what is wrong with? - So in my mid-taking and during my exam, I measured that amount of force between two and two and a half pounds. - That's not a lot of-- - And what does that mean? - Can you elaborate? - Well, does it mean that it would take two and a half, two to two and a half pounds of force to pull that trigger? - Some are in-between those values, yes. - Would that be considered what people call a hair trigger? - I personally would not consider that to be a hair trigger. When I think of a hair trigger, I think of either very high performance, hunting rifles, things of that nature or the amount of force on a trigger, I don't have a specific number for you, but it's extremely light. We just barely have to touch the trigger to fire the farm. It's typically, you see them in high intervals. - Now, Ziggler testified that he actually struck the gun on six planes with a raw hide knelt. He was cross-exempt by Alec Goldman's defense term. - Is it possible to know just by physically looking at a gun whether or not it's capable of malfunction? - I would say no. - And even if you've test fired in your laboratory in the little water bucket a bunch of times, in an act sort of stabilized environment, just because that works and there's not a catastrophic explosion of the gun or something like that, that doesn't mean that it's impossible if there's enough function, doesn't? - That's correct. I can only tell you that it function normally during my testing. - And you didn't at that point, before you went into the accidental testing that led to the destruction of the firearm, you didn't disassemble and look at the inside of the gun, did you? - No, at that point, there was no reason for me to do so. - Well, nobody asked you to. - That's correct, but I also did not see anything that would give me calls to do so. - And not only did you not disassemble it, but you obviously didn't disassemble it and take photographs or video of the inside of the truck? - Prior to the accidental discharge testing? - Right. - That's correct, I did not do that. - A firearms expert for the state had testified at a recent hearing about his thoughts on whether that accidental discharge testing was actually necessary. - Mr. Hay, just to orient the court, you agree that the testing that the FBI and Mr. Ziggler did, the destructive accidental testing, was unnecessary in light of the circumstances of this case, correct? - I would view it as unnecessary given the context of the case. Now, the prosecution contends there was really no prejudice to out old one in part, because the gun appeared to be in fine working order before the testing had heard. - Her testimony from Officer Hancock, or Chief of Corporal Hancock, who said this gun appeared perfectly fine. There seemed to be nothing wrong with it. You heard from Mr. Ziggler. When you received it at the FBI, the gun fired 12 times just as disarmed, there was nothing apparently wrong with this gun. - So the defense now comes and argues that this accidental discharge testing that led to the damage of some of these components deprived the defendant of this exculpatory evidence. So that's not the way the test works. The mere possibility that this destroyed evidence could have been tested, could have exfopated the defendant, is not sufficient to satisfy the first problem from that. - The defense summed up its argument about why they believed Baldwin had been prejudiced. They had no ability to examine the gun before it was destroyed. - So no one's accusing anybody of ethical misconduct on this one that's at least not necessary for the legal test. What it means is that they had an awareness is potentially exculpatory. And instead of stopping and saying, "Well, what do we need to do here? Do we need to document this? We need to reserve this." They just went ahead and destroyed it. - Judge Mary Marlow-Somer denied Baldwin's latest motion to dismiss where he argued he was prejudiced because the revolver was destroyed during testing to see whether the gun could accidentally fire on its own. In the end, Judge Marlow-Somer said, "It would be up the jury to decide what he to give the gun be destroyed." She wrote, "Given the courts above assessment of materiality and prejudice, the court concludes that the state must fully disclose the destructive nature of firearm testing. The resulting loss and its relevance and import to the jury. The state must examine appropriate witnesses in such a manner as to achieve this disclosure. In addition, defendant remains entitled to cross-examination of the state's witnesses to further accomplish this remedy. Alec Baldwin was holding that Colt 45 revolver on October 21st, 2021 at the Bananza Creek Ranch. Baldwin was practicing drawing the gun as cinematographer Helena Hutchins and director Joel Sousa set up for filming a scene. I want to take a quick second to tell you about this. - Okay, so, you know, I think that that judge, she ruled on it and she's going to allow the gun to come in as evidence and the test they did, Mike, to be proper and that she'll give the defense a chance to challenge that, but she's not throwing it out. That's how I received it, is that how you did? - Yeah, yeah, it'll be up to the jury 'cause the jury is always a trial fact. They determine what in their deliberations, what the actual facts are as they come to their conclusion about guilt or innocence. And so, yeah, Baldwin does not, defense team does not win the request to vacate the indictment and throw the whole case out, but at trial, they will get to cross-examine all the witnesses about what they did, why they did it, was this test necessary, why did you have to hit it with a mallet? You know, what was the relevance of that? You know, the FBI is trying to, but it's very relevant why they did it. You know, I'm sorry that they damaged it, but they're gonna get their day in court, they're gonna get their run at the prosecution's witnesses and they'll be able to do whatever damage they want to the prosecution's case. And the judge is saying, in the end, the prosecutor is gonna present their case, the defense is gonna present their issue of the damaged gun and it'll be up to the jury to give it weight, whether or not they give it a lot of weight or a little weight or they go, oh my God, the FBI destroyed it, poor Alex, he doesn't get Alex, he doesn't get a fair trial. It's all up to the jury, the judge is like, you know, this is, it's coming in, we're gonna talk about it, in front of the jury, the jury's gonna be able to deliberate and that's it, that's what we have, Mr. Baldwin. Move on, we're going to trial. - Absolutely, Shmini, thank you for the $5 SuperSticker. I cannot wait to see you cover more of this. Thank you, Sergeant Bill, Detective Philly G and Professor Gary, I'm so into this one, love the discussion, Shmini, thank you so much. You know, Phil, the case goes on trial this Tuesday, it starts Tuesday, July 9th. Again, in a summation, I'm just gonna say, the two words is criminal negligence. And no matter what you feel, it doesn't matter what you feel about Alec Baldwin, whether you like him, you hate him, you love him, whatever, it doesn't matter. What they're going to try to prove is that he and the Russ set and he in his role as a producer, and let's forget that he was an actor, that he was criminally negligent. 'Cause he wore two hats on that set. One was the head of an actor, and the other was the head of a producer. And in that way, they're gonna have to try to prove criminal negligence. Phil, your final thoughts. - You know, Billy, the testing of the gun where they took a mallet and they smashed it, I only hope they videotaped it, I don't think they did, but I think that will bolster the contention by the prosecution that this gun could have just gone off. They had that gun on a table and they were hitting it with a mallet with such force that they actually broke the gun, but it didn't fire. So the contention, I think, will be bolstered that this gun didn't accidentally go off. This gun went off because the trigger was pulled. In my closing words, I'd just like to say keeping Helena Hutchins and her family in our thoughts and prayers, she deserves justice in this case. Whatever the justice is going to be, the jury's gonna have to figure that out. Let's just hope and pray that everyone that's on that jury can take their personal feelings, whether they be pro or against Alec Baldwin, that they can just look at the evidence, like you said, this was reckless in nature. I don't think it's gonna be that hard to come to a conclusion based on the evidence that we know is going to produce that trial. So let's just hope and pray for justice for this woman and thoughts and prayers for her and her family. - Absolutely, Mike, your final words. - Yeah, just pray for Helena Hutchins' family and Hutchins' family and they're the victims here. And I think the jury, it can go either way because of his celebrity status, you never know. But if justice is done, then he probably will be convicted. But you don't know, you just have no idea in these cases, but let's just keep remembering. As Phil said, who's the victim here? It's Helena Hutchins and that's the person you should pray for. - Absolutely, folks. I'm Bill Cannon from "Police of the Cover Your Crime Stories." Thank you so much for tuning in tonight. We'll be following up on this case on Tuesday. Have a great Fourth of July weekend and we'll see you next time. - Happy Independence Day, everyone. - Absolutely. (upbeat music) ♪ Just setting it up ♪ ♪ Yeah, it'll end up ♪ ♪ Yeah, it'll end you too ♪