The FAN Morning Show

Dissecting The Jays' Deadline

The final hour of The FAN Morning Show is almost entirely focused on the Blue Jays. Ben Ennis and Daniele Franceschi start by reporting on the recently announced ruling of the Canadian Women’s Soccer Team’s appeal, and the hosts react to the news. Are they surprised it was dismissed? Find out. After that, it's all about the Blue Jays as the pair connect with Sportsnet insiders Shi Davidi and Ben Nicholson-Smith in Baltimore. Shi leads off by joining Ben and Daniele to reflect on the deals made by Toronto, particularly the job done by GM Ross Atkins in unloading expiring contracts and other players he signed this past offseason (3:00). The trio examines what the Jays’ front office has learned from this past season's disappointments and discusses how they might address issues previously overlooked. Next, the morning duo transitions from Shi Davidi to Ben Nicholson-Smith (27:46). With the co-host of the At The Letters podcast, Ben and Daniele dissect the trade market and whether the Jays made out well. Could they have gotten more by shopping a pitcher like Chris Bassitt? You'll be interested in the answer. To close, the trio looks at the organizational future: how both Bo Bichette and Vladimir Guerrero Jr. fit into it, as well as the potential cost to extend and keep both. Do Jays fans want both back after this season?

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

Duration:: 47m
Broadcast on:: 31 Jul 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

[MUSIC] What pathway do you see to overcome those very significant profiles? >> I think it should be just some of her outcome next year. >> Yeah, this was the first step towards that. And there's several ways to make acquisitions, which we will continue to have to do. We're gonna have to add in free agency and be a trade and we've just increased the likelihood of doing that by creating more depth and increased flexibility. >> The versatility, the dynamic, athleticism that we've acquired to complement the pieces that are here was a big part of our goal, and we feel that we've accomplished that. >> Good morning, show of badass, Danielle and Frank Chatsky. >> And of course, from the Blue Jays, General Manager, Rasa Atkins, we will get the shot of Union in just a second. But I want to talk about the cowards at the court of arbitration first form. >> [LAUGH] After Canada took care of business against New Zealand, and then France, in stoppage time, rejected the appeal of reducing or eliminating the six point deduction during group play, that's fine. >> That's fine, we'll do it ourselves, we'll do it live. >> [LAUGH] >> We'll beat Columbia tonight, and advance to the quarterfinals without your help. You cowards. >> Yeah, you know what's so easy to do is denigrate officials. >> Yeah, I know. >> And the court of arbitration for sport, that being said, they are cowards. >> Honestly Ben, as if this team needed any more motivation, any other reason to be fired up galvanized for this game today. They just got another helping hand of it. Because not only were they initially deducted six points, this committee has ruled that in fact, no, your appeal? Yeah, thanks for that, dismissed, thrown out the window, buh-bye. But it's okay, because boy, boy, did they ever probably light a fire under this Canadian team, and even added more kerosene on to that fire, going into today's match against Columbia. >> They are cowards, and here's the reason why you said it in the break. Canada doesn't win those two games against France and New Zealand. I think we get a different ruling today. I think it's very easy for the court of arbitration to sport to say, hey, you drew France and you thought that was it, and you were eliminated. You know what, wasn't fair. You should only be deducted the three points against New Zealand. It's a three-point deduction, not six. But they won both. And that allowed the court of arbitration for sport to be the cowards that they are. Putting it all on Canada to beat Columbia, who they've beaten in their two previous meetings and are higher ranked, and should be favored to beat them to advance. What an incredible accomplishment that could be happening tonight in France at the Olympics. All right, time now for our insider. Brought to you by Don Valley, North Lexus, where you can expect excellence online and in the showroom, visit donvalleynorthlexus.com, not a coward. It is shy to be the sports on its own. How's it going, buddy? I'm all right. Thanks, sir. That's a hell of an intro like that. I've done better than that, but like, yeah, unless you disagree, like not a coward, right? No, I'd like to go with not a coward. Yeah. That's pretty good. All right, so the trade deadline in our rear view, lots of turnover here, lots of new faces, eight players out, 14 returning, but only 13 going to be part of the equation going forward. Ryan Yarbrough is a human being, but he's a pending free agent. Ultimately, like this was obviously going to happen, perhaps there was a chance that not all of the pending free agents were moved. And I saw Ben Nichols and Smith and one of his write-ups before the deadline say, hey, maybe Danny Jansen because of the difficulty in adding a catcher in midstream and because the Blue Jays need to backfill that position in the off season, maybe there's an easier route to him remaining a Blue Jays. But everybody's gone, did that surprise you at all? Yeah, I mean, Ben and I were thinking the same thing along those lines of is there going to be a landing spot for a catcher, like a catcher's can be harder to move at the deadline in terms of, that's a very, very specific need, right? And most most contending teams, they tend to have a good solid catcher because otherwise you're probably not contending. So wondered about that one and also wondered about what the market would look like with Kevin Kermar after he passed through waivers on claims, but yeah, the Blue Jays were intent on moving every one of their pending free agents. They did that and then some a little bit, really sounds like the pirates just forced the Blue Jays' hands on Isaiah Connor Faleffa. So the more you think about it, if I think I was going to remain on the roster, it would have been harder for them to find runway for some of the players that they want to give runway to. So I feel like that one, it maybe was a little bit more convenient for the Blue Jays than moving some of the other players. But this was, you know, I looked this up and looked through the entire franchise's trade history yesterday. I mean, they've never had a stretch this busy. They've had a couple of five trade deadlines, but never, never one like this. So this has been the most intensive period of trading in team history. And it really signifies how deep of a reset this really was. Chai, it helps that. I mean, I think the decision in a way was sort of taken out of their hands from the standpoint that it became clear what the objective and direction needed to be at this deadline. By virtue of the position they were in, like they weren't, there were other teams around baseball that we could point to that were sort of teetering on the border. Are we buyers? Are we sellers? What are we doing here? Fortunately for the Jays, and in a sense, it actually really benefited them in terms of asset management, that they were in this position because they were able to execute trades in a robust seller's market that seemed to, again, they're all lottery tickets. But on paper, at least it feels like they came away pretty good in all of this. And when it comes to the prospect pool that they have now amassed and the infusion of depth that they've added into the system, I know, obviously, they want to hit on some of these guys, but how important is it just to even have now what is a better foundation in your farm system that you can potentially pluck from? As in their words, they try to reset retool to now be in a position where they can contend yet again in 2025, perhaps using some of those pieces as even trade chips in the off season. Yeah. For sure. And, you know, it's interesting. You mentioned there about the market. He go back to 18 when they moved Jay Hap, 19 when they moved market Strowman. And those markets weren't as good for sellers as they were this time. And I think the dearth of available options really helped the Blue Jays go as deep as they did here, just because there weren't a lot of selling clubs. And so they probably, at least on paper right now from a rankings perspective, did relatively well. Ultimately, we'll see on how they turn out. But the analogy that I've used this week is that the Blue Jays were coming into this year. They were essentially a nice house on a rotted foundation and they had to start patching up some of those cracks because what had happened was once there were sort of being issues on the house, well, the foundation wasn't strong enough to underpin the structure above it. And that's really what happened this year. So now they are in a better position, but keep in mind, one trade deadline alone does not fix all those issues. And as much as the Jays did well and they got some good players, you have to remember like, content in clubs, unless they make a mistake or a player just really surpasses the expectation. They're not giving up, they can't miss guys, right? Every team is trying to identify their prospects that they don't think are going to make it quite that way and trade them before the value collapses. So yes, the Blue Jays have more assets right now. They have more internal competition for positions and playing time, which is important because they definitely have not had that over the past few weeks as they've emptied out Buffalo. And now there's at least a bit of a horizon where you're like, okay, if this dude doesn't play out, maybe it's this dude. And if it's not this dude, then it can be that dude. And that also leads to some material that you can use in trades. And it just completely changes a lot of the underline stuff. But again, the players have to be good and time will tell on that. Yeah, if the Astros thought Jake Bloss could help their rotation this season, the rest of the regular season, the post season, they would have held on to him instead of exchanging him for, you say, Kukuchi. So yeah, maybe eventually turns into that guy, but the Astros are telling you this season, they don't think he is that guy. So Ross Atkins, what becomes of him in your latest? You did talk about the speculation and the rumblings around his job security leading up to this deadline that his dismissal would be imminent. He lasted through the deadline is very interesting. It will be very interesting to hear from Mark Shapiro for the first time since spring training when he speaks on August, the seventh Ross Atkins, he took the responsibility in every media availability that I saw from him yesterday said, it's my fault and we're sorry, apologize. It's not just this season. They've had a decade and they've won no playoff games. They've won no division titles. They've already gone through a rebuild. I mean, where is he in your mind as we head towards a pretty crucial offseason? Yeah, I mean, I think that you put the, the main frame, the main points there well, right? I think ultimately, you can certainly point to a lot of good, especially in the free agent pitching market, which is a very difficult market in which to succeed in and they've done very well in that area and you can point to some other elements of the fact that, you know, up until this year, through the post-season births in four years and it's obviously what you want, then on the other side, you can look at some of the other results, no playoff wins, certainly this year, but I think you have to go a little bit underneath the surface and I can think about sort of where the glutes were, sort of 2020, 2021-ish, when they were sitting on this base of talent and it looked like, okay, this isn't just a good window right now, but this can be sustained for a long period of time. And then there was no, but then there was no real replenishment from the farm system for that core and all of a sudden, they sort of stopped producing players and weren't able to replenish and renew what they had at the big league level, they had to go outside the organization for help too often, once that starts happening and your roster is getting more expensive, all of a sudden, you know, you start getting into the issues that the coaches have faced last year a little bit and then a lot this year. And so, you know, who is that on? Is that on loss after gigs? Is that on some other people? I think now is the time for that to date, right, like you weren't going to make that change before the trade deadline, teams just don't do that at that point, is you can't run a draft and then run a trade deadline when you just have a change in leadership, you say, hey guys here, figure out these two critical junctures, but now you have to figure out forward and what the, what essentially happened this year is the bluegies had to manage a game circumstance, right, like they didn't expect to be here, the script flipped on them and then they had to adjust. And now it's like, okay, well, when is our strategic goal or how do we get back towards managing that? And do we have the right people here to manage that towards? So that's, that's the conversation that happens now and Mark Spyro is scheduled to have his first availability since spring training on August 7th. He hasn't tipped his hand publicly in that time. And so we, it's kind of hard reading the tea leaves right now, but we're going to start getting a sense now in the days ahead. Well, what's his standing as well, right? Ever report is that there's one more year left on, on his deal and boy, if we just separate the baseball operations part of it, which we can't do, because he's also the president of that. But what he's done with the ballpark, all the ancillary things outside of creating a winning baseball team and they have made the playoffs, right, previous years and they haven't won a playoff game. And yeah, the bar should be higher than that, especially where they were after 2021, where everybody evaluated them, missing the playoffs by just a game if they got in, they would have been the most, one of the most dangerous teams in the American League that year, but to go from that to what they were last year, getting in with 89 wins and scoring one run. But yeah, if we just separate the, the baseball part of it from the, the other stuff, Marc Shapiro has been unbelievable as the president of the Blue Jays, but he's also overseeing some of the baseball operations. How much is he responsible? And is there, well, has he already been hands on with the baseball operations? And if that's the case, is it okay? Maybe you actually just need to separate yourself entirely from the baseball operations part of it. It hasn't been as hands on, maybe it's okay, you fire your GM, now you're the GM. Like where does Marc Shapiro, where does Marc Shapiro land in all of this? Yeah. I mean, that's a fair question, right, because as you mentioned, Marc's contract expires at the end of 25. And if you are making a change in general manager, well, can you hire somebody and give them, you know, you're probably going to do a three or four year contract for somebody else. And are you going to put somebody new in place for, say, three years, three, four years beyond where your contract at? And can you do that? Is that fair to if there was to be a change there, the next president? So yeah, that that's a piece to this sure. And, you know, I think that you can certainly look at it and say, well, if his contract is going to end at the end of next year, you keep this group together. And you say, okay, you guys, you guys see it through. And if we're, if 25 is looking like it's going to be in a good spot, there are extensions all around and continue onwards. And if not, then maybe we make a bit of a changer and that it's in that way, it's a little similar to where the Blue Jays were at heading into 2015 at that point in time. Paul Beeston was going into what was going to be his final year as president and Alex and Thoppelis's contract was up. And there was uncertainty at that point, because until that trade deadline, Alex wasn't going to hadn't gotten to the post season, the drought had extended, and there was uncertainty around the club's direction. And then it ended up working out, and we all remember how all the pieces played out afterwards. So it was the playbook similar here in terms of, okay, you guys go into 2025 and we'll figure it out once that season plays out, or is there some of that get decided ahead of time? Those are, I don't have answers to that, and I'm not sure maybe all that is decided just yet. So it's certainly an interesting time. I think that you can definitely make the case that the business has been dramatic. The business side has been dramatically transformed, you've got a new facility in Dunedin, you've got a renewed facility in Toronto, you've got significant changes in operations that have created a better business, a more modernized business as well. But yeah, the baseball side has to work, otherwise none of this really matters because the product is the baseball, not everything else. 100%. I mean, we've seen it when the team is good shy, people show up, regardless, and yes, of course it's fun, then you can go to the ballpark, it's great, the amenities are awesome, but still, fundamentally at the core, you're sitting there to watch a baseball game for two and a half, three hours, that's what you're there for, and you want to see a good product, a winning product, an entertaining product, even if it's not in the form of a team that's winning 95 games or whatever, just something that's entertaining and at times it's been difficult to sort of wrap your head around what we've been watching here. I did want to focus in shifting your slightly to what we can expect this offseason, and I'm trying to understand, because I'm of two minds here, I think as most people would say, they did all things considered pretty well in terms of moving off these six expiring contracts, two guys with extra term, and netting a return that produce 14 players, 13 of which are able to immediately infuse some much-needed depth in your farm system, but in terms of now projecting roster building for 2025, I think there's still plenty of questions there, and I took a peek at the free age of Mark, and I'm trying to think of, okay, what are realistic pathways here in your estimation, Shai, what do you think it looks like in terms of the idea, the notion that clearly this front office has an appetite to get back to a point where they're playing competitive baseball games and meaningful games in 2025, well, how do they get there? That's the big question. Yeah, for sure. I think that I try to focus on that a little bit in the piece I wrote last night, because what they've acquired is great, and I'm really interested to watch Walt Perfido, who I expect to be in the lineup today, and Class A, when he comes up, and Wagner, and Blas, but there are substantial holes to plug on this roster, and you've got a sense of just how thin certain areas are, like last night, Alejandro Kirk takes that ball off the elbow, he's out of the game, ends Brian Servin, and you look at the organizational depth chart, well, they don't have another catcher on the 49th roster, the next guy up is Phil Clark, who are probably Phil Clark, and sounds like a darts player. If you're catching tandem is Phil Clark and Brian Servin, I mean, that's not where you were at the beginning of the season, and so that's just going to highlight how much work they have to do. They need to rebuild their bullpen, they need to make sure that Vladimir Guru Jr., and once he's back healthy, Boboshette, aren't islands in that lineup that you can just avoid, which is what the Orioles spent a lot of time doing to Vlad yesterday, after he torched them for seven hits in the double header on Monday, you've got a bolster, a starting rotation that's got three guys and two question marks right now, so there's just a lot of work to do to make this a competitive team, or like a realistically competitive team. There's talent on this roster, no doubt, and they're in that gray zone where they've got enough talent that you can squint at it and say, "Okay, there's a pathway here," but there's also an uncomfortable amount of if on it to get there. I think, yeah, there's a ton of work that would have to happen in this offseason, and I think that's why it can be dangerous to play that. Well, we could get their game, but you have to pick a lane at a certain point, it's like, "Okay, are you really going all in on this?" Okay, so if you're doing that, then it's extending Vlad, and at least one of Vlad, if not Vlad and Bo, and then finding ways to build around them for an extended period so that you're not just giving a bunch of money to two dudes who aren't going to get you anywhere, you're like Todd Helton with the Rockies, or do you take a deeper step back and say, "Okay, we're just too far from a critical, massive talent here, and we have to do everything we can to just collect talent to get us to that point." Yeah, and you can't do that if you're at the last year of your deal, and you've had a decade, and you haven't won anything. So, yeah. It's a tough spot. Shy? Great stuff, as always. Appreciate it. Not a coward. Yeah. Hey, thanks guys. Have a great day. Thanks, Shay. You too. There's Shydividi. Our insider brought to you by Don Valley, North Lexus, where you can expect excellence online and in the showroom, visit DonValleyNorthlexus.com. Yeah, Blue Jays are in a bad spot. They're in that they're bad, and they want to still be good, but they don't have any obvious way to be good. And they have a front office that is under the gun to be good. So they're, you know, he's right to bring up 2015, because Alex Anthopolis, the narrative around him, was like, "You got one more kick of the can." Definitely. This is it for you. People forget that. The difference was, so he had a good base of talent on the Major League roster and below the Major League roster, that he was able to turn into Major League talent before the trade deadline in 2015. It's not the same at all. Like, the Blue Jays don't have capable Major Leaguers or a farm system, like, there's just, there's nothing. And the only way to replenish at least the bottom part, the minor league part is time. Like, you just can't do that overnight. You need to draft and develop well, and you need to create more talent through trade, which they've started. But they only just started after the first tear down, and Arjun Namala is, like, a hundred years away. And, like, the-- Yeah. I mean, who knows if we're going to see Ricky Tiedemann, and there's so many things. I mean, the suspension for Arelvis and what does that mean, how does he look when he comes back? All these things. There are endless questions. You're 100% right. It's a different dynamic altogether. The word I kept coming back to as we were listening to Shai and him kind of going through all the different match nations, like, internal augmentation is so vital in any sport to being able to consistently produce a strong product. That is vital. You can't just, you know, yes, there are certain, like, the Dodgers, the Yankees. They can just, you know, okay, here's the money. We're going to back up the brings truck. Tell us your address. We'll buy-- we'll buy as much talent as possible. That'll be our recipe and our strategy. With a most teams, though, that's not how it works. You can maybe-- you got to hit on guys that you draft, that you develop, that-- and then on top of that, once they're good, you need the internal augmentation process to help replenish your system and sustain that window. Wow. And that Jason failed in that regard, clearly. Yeah, and they have spent. They have spent. They went out and got Kevin Gossman and Chris Bassett, which were nice free-agent signings and they went out and got George Springer, whose best years are behind him. But early stages of that deal looked real, real good. They went out and got, you say, Koochie. On Gen-Reeu. Where's the second part of that? There's just nobody coming up through the Monterly system. Like, Spencer Horowitz, well done, is like, okay, a guy that maybe-- and boy, it took until, like, yesterday for them to decide, oh, yeah, wait, maybe he can play second base. That's so true. Like, okay. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, like, the only thing holding him back was the fact that he was a first baseman. It took you this long to be like, oh, wait, maybe he's got good enough hands and hand eye that he could play second base, which-- it changes everything for the player. He's not one playing the position where the franchise player plays, and two, the offensive bar is much lower. It's second base. Like, all of a sudden, Spencer Horowitz went from like, yeah, he gets on base and hits for a high average in first base, but who cares? He doesn't even hit a home run. Oh, my God, what a great offensive player at second base. That's so true. Yeah, that's like an underrated, frustrating part of some of the internal evaluations of the team. Totally. I'll come and tell you what, 27 years old, the poor guy to finally break through. Played 10 minor league games at second base, and all of a sudden, he'd look-- oh, he's the second baseman. Sure, cool. Okay. Very capable of that position. Anyways. Okay. When we come back, we'll talk more specifically about the market that developed in trade before yesterday's deadline, and specifically, I mean, in Shai alluded to it, hey, seem like there's pretty good market out there for pitching. How close were the Blue Jays to move in Chris Bassett with our next guest, Ben Nicholson-Smith. As the fan morning show continues, Ben Anis, Daniele Franceski, Sportsnet 590, the fan. Covering the Blue Jays from an analytical perspective, Jay's Talk Plus with Blake Murphy. Be sure to subscribe and download Jay's Talk on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. What this does as far as your timeline to getting back to contention. Yeah, I mean, that was our goal, is to do that as soon as possible to retool this already talented group and ensure that in 25 and 26 and hopefully beyond that, that we're competing and contending. I think that you hit on it, that they're a part of our solution. We are focused on winning, competing, and contending moving forward in 25 and 26, and they are a key part of that. Good morning, Joe, Sportsnet 590, the fan, Ben Anis, Daniele Franceski, filling in for Brad Gunning, Blue Jays, wrapping up their series in Baltimore against the Orioles, where many beat reporters were yesterday for Ross Atkins' media availability via Zoom. I was watching everybody huddle around, shy to be at his computer, I don't know why he got, like it was his computer, Ben Nichols Smith joins us online. How come, why did everybody defer to shy, is he has a nice computer, why was his computer the one used? Well, thankfully it did work, so, you know, no complaints on the functionality of his computer. Yeah, so essentially if everyone had had their computer on their five or six writers there, then there would have been a ton of feedback, so, yeah, someone was going to have their computer on and that's how it unfolded. Kind of an alpha move, I like you didn't volunteer your computer? You know, it really, I was taking notes on it, I was scribbling down some quotes, so my computer was there, don't rest assured, my computer is also working, so, yeah, no issues there. Alright, so let's talk about this market, because it's very good for sellers, Blue Jays had a bunch of rentals and nobody, like all that great, no offense to you, say Kikuchi, but like been actively bad for a good portion of this regular season, netted three guys, we could see at the major league level this year, nutty, Chris Bassett, much better. Now he doesn't throw 97 from the left side, but he's under team control for a year more, and just like before yesterday's outing, had an ERA below four, was their opportunity missed by the Blue Jays in actively shopping, Chris Bassett, were there any real discussions around him? There may have been opportunity missed, I don't know exactly what the offers would have been, I think that trading Chris Bassett is a possibility that the Blue Jays should have explored, and as I continue trying to report on this deadline, I'll try to get a sense of how close that got, as of now, I'm not sure what this offers would have been, so all we know is that he, or all I know, is that he definitively is a Blue Jays and did not get created. So yeah, to me, it looks like a potential missed opportunity, but I will say that even if there had been a market for Chris Bassett, no way his value is as good as you see it, so you say Kikuchi, like not quote, not quote, not quote, not quote, not quote, not quote. Well, even like the extra year, and he's just factually better, like, explain to me why that is. Well, because if I'm a playoff team, I'd rather have you say Kikuchi for one, and then two, you say Kikuchi earns $10 million, whereas Chris Bassett earned $21 million. So right there, that's a big difference, right, $11 million. So right there, you have the mid-market teams, like let's say, and this part is speculative, but let's say twins, brewers, pod race, guardians, their teams were in the starting pitching market, they're mid to small market teams. So which player are they going to be after? They're going to be after you say Kikuchi, so that boosts his value forward. The big market teams like the Astros and the Dodgers, obviously, they too can afford Kikuchi. So that's a good thing. Now, secondly, who throws 97, who gets swing this with multiple breaking balls? But don't the results ever matter? Well, not really, I mean, they do it, they don't, right? And who, like think about it from a playoff standpoint, right? No, that part I follow. And the other thing is, like, if you're trying to have one of these guys come out of the bullpen, Chris Bassett is just not a belief. Yeah, he's not. You're never going to use Chris Bassett. If it's the seventh inning of game five of the NLCS, you're not going to Chris Bassett, I'm sorry, you're just not. And you say Kikuchi in that situation, you're facing a pocket of lefties? Sure. You could go to him. Yeah. No, that makes sense. That does it. Yeah. Especially the playoff part of it. I get it because even the Mets would tell you that at the end of the season, they'd rather not have Chris Bassett. Like he's great over the course of 162 games making 30 plus starts and last year pitching over 200 innings. But yeah, the playoff part of it makes sense. It's just, it is, it's just a little bewildering because, like I said, you say Kikuchi, you see, as a starter this year, outside of like the first month and a couple of starts has been really bad and I love him to death. And I kind of hope that the Blue Jays re-sign him this off season because they're going to need more starters. And especially if his market isn't what I'm sure he hopes it will be. But yeah, it was just, it was hard not to look at the return they got for him. I mean, equal value, like, I guess the money part is a big part of it. But what if the Blue Jays have paid down part of Chris Bassett's remaining contract? Would that have changed things? It's possible. And again, I think that's a possibility that they should have explored. And I'm not sure, again, how much they did explore it. But to me, like, even if you pay that down, you say Kikuchi, I would dispute the notion that he's having a bad year that he hasn't pitched well. Like I think he's pitched quite well. And if you look around just at how hard it is to fill out a major league rotation and the fact that, like, Trevor Rogers, Trevor Rogers, of the war, like, stuck on her nor being, that's insane. And again, that reinforces, like, go and see what's out there for Chris Bassett. So I agree with you in that point. I really do. But if we're comparing, you say to Chris Bassett, to me, you say Kikuchi, younger, throws harder, left-handed, comes out of the bullpen cheaper, he definitely has more trade value. I mean, that's super interesting because then, I mean, I've been advocating throughout this entire process that not just Chris Bassett, but, like, Kevin Gause, the market was, A, was ripe, and it was clearly robust in terms of the sellers being in favor of the sellers' market. And then on top of that, just looking at the sheer value of the pieces that were being exchanged here is honestly remarkable. But it's funny you mentioned that in terms of Kikuchi over Bassett, because yesterday I'm listening to Blair and Barker BNS, and they're talking to this conversation about, you know, well, Bassett, first Gause, and, you know, they were both pretty much on board with, like, yeah, we would prefer to have Chris Bassett over Kevin Gause, because of what he does more from the standpoint of being more of a pitcher rather than a thrower and the artistic sort of prowess that he possesses with the assortment of pitches. It just felt like there's more sustainability there. But I do also see your perspective of saying, if you're a playoff team, that is perfectly in the market for a rental, yeah, you say Kikuchi checks a lot of those boxes, here's where I did want to sort of shift the conversation to slightly in this regard. How much do you think the prices that we saw over the course of this deadline, period, how much do you think, especially when it comes to pitching, how much do you think that that speaks to just the overall lack of quality starting pitching depth across baseball? Like is it, is it, and maybe did that factor into even part of the rationale why the J's are sitting here today hanging on to a Chris Bassett, because it is so difficult to replicate that level of production, just in terms of durability and sheer raw numbers based on what we're seeing across the sport? Yeah, I think that figures in for sure, because the Blue Jays, again, you guys just played the clip from Russ Atkins, and we all heard that the Blue Jays do want to contend in 2025. So you're going to need to start pitching to do that. And Chris Bassett and Kevin Gossman can certainly help. How much they can help? We'll see. I mean, you know, we've seen a decline in stuff and performance from Kevin Gossman. Chris Bassett keeps doing his thing, and that's great, as he enters the final year of his contract. So he can help someone in the major leagues next year, and at this point, that's going to be the Toronto Blue Jays. So they'll need him, it's wild, right, because pitching in so many ways has never been better, and it's never been harder to hit in the major leagues. Stuff is so nasty, these guys throw so hard, and they have such good breaking stuff. And so it's good, starting pitching is good by some measures, but at the same time, there aren't a lot of guys who go out there and give you the consistency, to give you that every five days we're going to keep you in the game, partly because the demands on each individual pitch on each individual inning are so high. So the Blue Jays did acquire talent, and some of it already major league talent, but obviously the teams that gave those players up don't think that they have MVP potential. Like who has the highest upside here? Of all the players acquired? Is there anybody that like, obviously it's like, it's not obvious, or else those teams would have held on to those players for especially rentals, but who has the highest upside of any of the players acquired yesterday? Yeah, it's a great question, and my read on it is that it's Jake Bloss, the right-handed picture that the Blue Jays acquired from Houston, headlining the Kikuchi trade. Arguably, Jake Bloss is the best prospect traded by anyone as a trade deadline. I was just reading the Baseball America ranking of the 89 prospects that were traded this deadline, and in that list, Jake Bloss ranked number four. Joey Lopurfito, who also came back and that you say Kikuchi trade, ranked number 11. So the Blue Jays got two of the most intriguing prospects traded at the deadline period in a single trade. They also happened to get number 89, the very last prospect traded, which is Jake Harry for Trevor Richards. So there you go. They got a huge range. But yeah, to answer the question, I think that anytime you're talking about a real potential starting pitching prospect who is really, really good stuff, 23 years old, I mean, that's super, super intriguing. If this guy had been available in the draft, we're probably talking about a first-round pick. This is a big deal to get Jake Bloss. Ben, the question was obviously posed to Ross Atkins yesterday, both in the media scrum that you were a part of virtually, that is. And then even in an interview with Tim McCall, afterwards on SportsNet Central, in regards to Boba Shek and sort of what the dynamic is, what the future might entail there. If I give you two options here, I want you to tell me what you think is more likely. A, we live in a world where Boba Shek gets traded this off season, or B, we're in a world where April 2025, opening day, or maybe March, I don't know exactly what opening day is. But whenever opening day 2025 rolls around, he's sitting there as the starting shortstop of the Toronto Blue Jays. Which do you think is the more realistic and likely outcome? At this point, I mean, I have to take him starting the season with the Blue Jays. Is that more likely outcome? Okay. Yeah, I mean, I think it's for a trade to line up, a lot of things would have to come together. At the same time, I can envision a trade. You know, I really can. I think that at this point, the Blue Jays are being open minded about their future in a way that they probably haven't been in the last couple of years, when they were more tunnel vision on competing and on making the most of this window and really creating their core players wasn't moving a question. So now they're considering different things. They're challenging themselves to be a bit more, yeah, just opportunistic, open-minded about these things. So that includes whether it's Boba Shek, whether it's you say Kikuchi, Chris Bassett, a lot of these names that we're talking about. I don't think that it's a certainty that Boba Shek's days. I think the trades will be discussed and probably already have been discussed. And we'll see where it goes, but I, as you heard Ross, I can say, him, Vlad, there wasn't traction on that, this deadline and where that leads. There are a lot of things that are up in the air going into this offseason. Like, there really are. There are a lot of variables with this team that we don't know exactly how they're going to be. Yeah. Okay, you mentioned that they seem more open to pivoting. They can pivot to not winning in 2025, again, like I wouldn't. I don't know if anybody would evaluate what is on the roster, what's in the minor league system. This Blue Jays team and say the most end with the way the American League is and the American League East is and say the most prudent thing is to try and win in 2025. I'm just saying that this front office has been in its position for almost a decade now and the idea that you get two rebuilds over that span is unreal. Like, even the idea of trading Boba Shedd, which I do believe is a realistic possibility of the soft season, but it's with an eye to acquiring pieces that are either majorly ready in 2025 or pieces that you're going to flip before opening day in 2025. Like, is there a still possibility of this offseason, a full pivot away from winning in 2025? To me, everything is on the table. I think that there are still two months to play out with this season, and we'll hear from Marc Shapiro in a week's time, he'll address the media and take questions from the media for the first time since spring training, so that'll be interesting to hear what he has to say, and we'll learn more then, but yeah, I haven't heard anything to indicate that, "Oh, it's absolutely locked in stone that they're going to do A, B, and C." It's just a different scenario than the last couple of winters, and I think it has to be because they've played so poorly. Their farm system, "Hey, it just got a great boost. This was a good deadline for the Blue Chase," right? Like, they had a really good deadline. That's great. This is a really good week. They needed this week, but it's still in the context of, "It's been a bad season. The major league team isn't good enough," and the farm system isn't good enough. So, to take nothing away from what happened in the last week, there's still in a tricky spot, in a bad spot in some ways, as an organization, and so as a result of that, they have to be open-minded. I don't think it's off the table, depending on health, depending on performance, depending on the minor league, and then a couple months, and how the free age of market look, depending on what they decide to do with the front office and as a coaching staff, and what potential changes happen structurally and behind the scenes. Who knows? I'm not sitting here saying that I know what's going to happen, but I don't think that we can cause anything off the way. No, we can't. And even if they do pivot away from winning in 2025, it's not the worst idea still to sign your 25-year-old first baseman to a long-term extension that he could still be playing on the other side of a couple years of wilderness. The Boba Shet number is hard to imagine. It's impossible to know like what it is, especially considering the way this season played out. I guess we'll get a better sense once Juan Soto signs, once Peter Lonzo signs this off season, what the Vlad number could look like, but you look at comparables that have already signed as first baseman and nobody's as young as Vlad will be, but Matt Olson was 27 when he signed his contract, and it was for $168 million, he's quite good. That's an annual average value of 21 million bucks. That feels like you're halfway there to the Vlad, like, am I insane to think that if you're looking at a decade of Vlad, it's going to be an annual average value of at least 30 million? Yes, totally agree with that, Ben. I think that, yeah, totally agree. It's tricky. And even with those two columns that you mentioned, the free agents, there's going to be a huge golf between what Peter Lonzo gets and what Juan Soto gets, which is what makes it so interesting. Like, let's say I don't know this, nor have I asked around about Peter Lonzo in the last little bit. But let's say Peter Lonzo, let's say he gets 30 million times six years, that's 180. I don't know, that's just throwing out a number. And let's say Juan Soto gets 540. So there's a huge difference, right? That's one contract is three times as much as the other right there. So I just, I don't know where Vlad fits in, is it exactly halfway, you know, you split the differences, you know, I don't know, but it's going to be tough to value him partly because he is a first baseman, but he's also insanely young. So that helps his value. Worst case scenario for Vlad Jr, he hits free agents, he hit age 26 and he gets a huge payday. So he's fine either way. Blue Jays want to keep them off the market, they are going to have to pay him in a way that Matt Olson and Peter Lonzo probably aren't getting paid. And there is a strong case to do that, but we know the Blue Jays are methodical, we know that they are process oriented, we know that they are not one to just go out on the ledge and say sign whatever you want, right? That's not how they've operated. And at times it's helps them because, hey, there was a case to sign those about Easter for a super long-term contract at one point. There were cases to do all sorts of things and sometimes prudence is valuable, right? Like sometimes a deal not made and the deal that we never think about is actually kind of good that they didn't do that, but you got to walk a fine line because you Vlad Jr, watching them play in Baltimore this week. No, it's stupid. He is so far in a way their best player, it's just such a gulf. So having him around is a huge, huge benefit. Yeah, as the Immortal Teddy KGB said, give that man his money. And I think that's the most prudent course of action for this year. All right, Benny, we've got to go. Thanks, buddy. Thanks, Ben. Anytime guys, thanks so much. Ben Nicholson Smith, Sportsnet, and the At The Letters Podcast. That's it. Like, honestly, even the first base thing I can kind of over with, I get it. It's not shortstop, but the average OPS, I had it up the other day. He's like 720 or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. It's in baseball. It doesn't matter what position you play. It doesn't matter if you're DH. If you can put for the 900 OPS, you're a god. Yeah. In baseball in 2024, you're magic. How did you do that? Because nobody does it. It's like Dalton Varsho hitting under the Mendoza line. You're like, guys, not bad. It's like you have some home runs, plays good defense. I don't care. You have one of the few, there's like 20 players in baseball that can hit. You have one of them? You have to hold on to that dude. And I think Blue Jays do their best to try and retain him. That's going to be expensive. Man. 30. That's crazy. But I think, yeah, I think you're right. I think we're kind of there, man. We really are. And you got to do it. Yeah, we really do desperately need to do it if you're the Blue Jays. Yeah, because there's nobody else walking through that door. Maybe Boba Shep, when he's healthy, but boy, this season was very bizarre. Thanks for doing this, Danielle. Pleasure, Ben. Thank you. We'll be back tomorrow with another edition of the fan morning show, Sportsnet 5.9 in the fan. a.