Stumped
Sri Lanka's momentous moment and Mexico bring cricket into prisons
Alison Mitchell, Brett Sprigg and Charu Sharma debate who will be the next coach of the England white ball team after Matthew Mott stepped down following two years in charge.
Plus we are joined by Columbo cricket journalist Estelle Vasudevan, who was in Dambulla when Sri Lanka women won their first ever Asia Cup title in front of their home fans. She tells us what the atmosphere was like and whether this could be the springboard for the women’s team ahead of the T20 World Cup.
Can cricket help rehabilitate prisoners? We hear from the President of Mexico Cricket Ben Owen and Ana Cecilia Septien Godard who plays for the women’s national team. They tell us about their Cricket in Prisons programme.
Image: The Sri Lanka team pose with the trophy for a group picture after the 2024 Women's T20 Asia Cup Final match between Sri Lanka and India at Rangiri Dambulla International Cricket Stadium on July 28, 2024 in Dambulla, Sri Lanka. (Credit: Getty Images)
- Duration:
- 42m
- Broadcast on:
- 01 Aug 2024
- Audio Format:
- mp3
Welcome to Stumped, a podcast that talks about cricket. Yep, that's about it. Cricket! How to play it, watch it, and love it, whether you're in England, India, Australia, and everywhere in between. Share it, review it, and rate it, please. Podcasts from the BBC World Service are supported by advertising. Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. Recently, I asked Mint Mobile's legal team if big wireless companies are allowed to raise prices due to inflation. They said yes. And then when I asked if raising prices technically violates those onerous to your contracts, they said, "What the f*ck are you talking about? You insane Hollywood f*ck." So to recap, we're cutting the price of Mint Unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. Give it a try at mintmobile.com/switch. $45 up front for three months plus taxes and fees promoting for new customers for limited time. Unlimited more than 40 gigabytes per month slows. Full turns at mintmobile.com. This season, Instacart has your back to school. As in, they've got your back to school lunch favorites like snack packs and fresh fruit. And they've got your back to school supplies, like backpacks, binders, and pencils. And they've got your back when your kid casually tells you they have a huge school project due tomorrow. Let's face it, we were all that kid. So first, call your parents to say I'm sorry, and then download the Instacart app to get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes all school year long. Get a $0 delivery fee with your first three orders while supplies last. Minimum $10 in order. Additional terms apply. Wow, what a catch! From the BBC World Service in association with ABC and @hakeshvarnie, this is Stumps. Hello, and welcome to Stumps, your intercontinental hit of news features and debate from the quirky world of cricket. I'm Alison Mitchell in London, and between cricket very much, getting into the Olympic spirit, including at a family barbecue, where together with the kids, we had every event from the standing long jump to the reverse high jump, aka the limbo. And I'll tell you what a competitive spirit's really kicked in. So yes, I won't say who's there. Well, we've got some reigning Olympic champions now. I've got a defender title in four years time. Let's just say that. Nice to see you, Ali Bretsburg, here in Sydney, where I'm pleased to say the ABC has secured radio broadcast rights for the next seven years of basically all Australian crickets, so test matches, all the internationals, men's and women's, as well as the men's big bash league for the first time in a while. So it's all very exciting amidst that backdrop of the Olympics, of course, as you mentioned, and being deep in the winter football season here, it's a reminder that a big summer of cricket is not so far away. Well, it's such a delight to be in the company of Olympic champions. I'm Charu Sharma for Akashwani. Today in Mumbai for a function relating to a friend who unfortunately passed away last year, very very close friend of mine. But also a bit of a lament on the Indian women's cricket team going down to Sri Lanka good for the other team, but not so good for India over clear favorites. And there's also a bereavement of one of the cricket legends of India, but more on that later. I'm just glad that we're back on stunt. Yep. Good to have you back, Charu, as well. And I look forward to all of that cricket in Australia, springy in the summer. Great news for ABC that. And we are going to talk later in the show about Sri Lanka's women who have won the Asia Cup for the first time. Could that be a pivotal moment for them going forwards? But first of all, we'll start with England's men because their head coach of the whiteboard team, Australian Matthew Mott, is gone. The ECB statement said officially that he has stepped down. Marcus Draskoffik will take charge on an interim basis when England play Australia for whiteboard games in September. Now, Mott's tenure started off well when he teamed up with the new captain at the time, Joss Butler, and England won the T20 World Cup in 2022. But since then, well, they exited the 50 over World Cup in 2023 early with only three wins out of nine. And then this year, they were beaten by eventual winners India in the T20 World Cup semi-final. First up, I just wonder, Brett and Charu, did it come as a surprise to either of you in Australia and India? I mean, he was asked to take over a World Cup winning team that had been led brilliantly by Owen Morgan at a time when whiteboard cricket ceased to be prioritised. So he thought it was never Charu going to be an easy act for him to follow. No, it wasn't. But I am frankly surprised because this sounds a bit of a knee-jerk reaction. All teams can't win, all matches all the time. And chopping and changing coaches, yes, I know it happens in other sports as well, sometimes a little whimsically, does send a very bad signal. And especially because he had, after all, won a World Cup for the UK team, for the England team. I'm certainly surprised, even disappointed on behalf of Matthew March. And I just don't think it's sending very good signals, especially because a replacement is not yet, should be say, firm and to have a temporary arrangement sounds ridiculous. So yeah, I do think this is a somewhat unnecessary knee-jerk reaction. I'll say I'm not totally surprised. I think those results sort of speak for themselves, the recent results. I think what the so-called 'bazball' has done is put in sharp focus the way England approaches the respective formats. How can you be such an aggressive team in test cricket that appears to have drastically lost its way in the shorter format? The biggest knock on Matthew Mott, and I will say I've been fortunate enough to work with Matt on commentary in the past and speak for a lot of people in the Aussie women's programme that was very successful and continues to be. The biggest knock on Matthew Mott was that he's very plans-based, data-driven coach. And there's perhaps no better example than the 50-hour World Cup game last year in Mumbai when they bold first against South Africa, which is the one's biggest. I think it was Adila Rashid. Yeah, tough conditions as well. They suffered their worst ever ODI defeat. And I think it was at that point that coach said, well, we bold first because historically, supposedly, you're about a chance of winning this ground. Good leaders are typified by their cricket instincts, whether it's captain or coach. And you can argue whether which of those is more significant in this case. But I know there would have been a bit of doubt internally. There certainly was a lot of criticism at the time, sure. But I think we'll come back to moments like that perhaps as part of the undoing for Matthew Mott. Notwithstanding, he did win a World Cup. So, as you say, Charo, that's not nothing. But, Ali, I'm kind of get your view, what have you made of it all, and what's the response being like there in England? Well, first of all, the use of the word, the phrase "stepping down" is a complete euphemism. But we often see that, don't we? I mean, two years into a four-year term, you do feel for Matthew Mott, the commitment he's made to move over here. He's got a family with kids who are in school in Cardiff. Rob Key was doing a review post the T-20 World Cup. The T-24, when you think he has won a World Cup and they've reached a semi-final of another, albeit England really scraped through relying on wins against the associates to get them over the line to even to get to that semi-final. It's regards a full-time replacement goes, which is where the focus turns to. I mean, Key has said that it's essential we go through the right processes to ensure we get the best person for the job. And I really hope they do go through due and proper process because recently there's been a bit of consternation about Andrew Flintoff being handed the job of Northern Superchargers in the 100, without the job being advertised openly and for candidates to be free to apply. English cricket really needs to shed that image of being a closed shop with mates giving job to mates because they're mates. So that's the first thing that I really hope that there is a wide process to find the next coach. But yeah, as regards to captain, I mean, that's a conversation that is going on here is how much responsibility should fall on Josh Butler's shoulders. And yes, he stays in his role, but he is the captain and onfield leadership cherry, you can argue with cricket, more influential than the head coach's role. Without question, I do really think that in the world of cricket particularly, and I know people like Ian Chaper will agree with me completely, the role or the efficacy, the importance, the utility of a coach is inversely proportional to the seniority and experience of a team. So, you know, senior national teams don't really, if I may say so, need a coach. It's something that the world of cricket has now absorbed in their coaches all sorts, all manners now, there's a huge support staff team. But it really is inside the field. You can't strategize outside for something that's being hurled at you at 150 kilometers an hour. And there's no complicated thought. It's only experience and instinct that takes you forward. And so if you're going to get rid of coaches when really, which you can play a 10% role, if not less, then what am I saying? You don't need to have a coach? No, you can have so. I mean, there's optics and there's so much more strategy, et cetera. But to pile on that level of responsibility and accountability on the coach, probably not in cricket. Well, there's few alternatives at the moment in terms of who would captain the side. But I felt certainly during the T20 World Cup that, and I've seen it before with Josh Butler, he can be prickly with interviews. I mean, that's not necessarily a reason to sack a captain. But to me, it perhaps speaks a bit more about maybe his demeanor or how much he's enjoying the job or otherwise, you know, to be a leader who struggles to, I guess, either convey messages through the media or just have good open interactions and relationships. He has been a little bit prickly, particularly at the T20 World Cup. As regards who could be the new coach, well, questions were immediately asked of former captain Owen Morgan, of course, thinking he's been out of the side now for a little while. Would he want to go into coaching? And he has said straight away the timing is not right for him to take over. And he's got a, you know, a new young family as well. And of course, he's doing a lot of commentary and enjoying that for now. And Andrew Flintoff, I mentioned him earlier, currently head coach of the Northern supercharges. He's, of course, garnered attention because he was brought into the England white ball coaching staff by Rob Key. Good friend of his and ECB chair Richard Thompson is also close to Flintoff. He managed his career as chair of the talent agency that Flintoff is part of. So that's sort of being looked at insofar as, you know, that could raise questions of conflict of interest, or at least being an uncomfortably sort of close type of appointment if they went for him. But, you know, he's only just starting out at Northern supercharges in terms of that head coach role. Jonathan Trotz, of course, from England bat, who has had great success getting Afghanistan to the T-20 World Cup semi final, although he has just taken a job as head coach in the essay 20. There's Mike Hussey, who has been involved. Of course, he was part of the backroom staff when England won the T-20 World Cup under Matthew Martin. He's coaching in the 100 as well. And Kumar Sangakara is another one. Of course, he's been director of cricket, Rajasthan Royles, so has a bit of a relationship with Joss Butler, but whether he would want an international head coach's role, which is different to director of cricket. And of course, he also does broadcast work as well. He is based in England, though, largely. Brett, have you got any other names to chuck into the mix? There's quite a few, as it always is at this sort of stage. There are a few. I even saw Andy Flower's name come up a couple of times. He obviously has coached that team before, before the roles were split. He's with the 100 and many franchise roles at the moment. Look, you can't have Mike Hussey. You treat our Aussies so appallingly. It is a really challenging approach because you sort of either end up, as you say, with someone who's known to the England system, and that could well be good enough. Or you go for the outsider, and it probably does take longer to win over the fairly parochial constituency. Personally, you couldn't pay me enough to be coach or manager of the England National Sporting Team. Definitely, I was putting my name in the ring. But it's worked out OK for Brett and McCallum, and it was going all right for Matthew Mott. And before that, Trevor Bailas as well. But perhaps it is time to look within. And as you say, due process has to be followed, Freddie Flintoff certainly jumps out at me. It might be a challenge for him if he has to navigate the ascension of his own son, Rocky, into the senior England set up at some stage in the quite near future. But look, I can't personally profess to know who the best option is beyond, say, Flintoff, who would be the biggest name. Sometimes these things are picked on vibes. Ultimately, it's the results which dictate the rest. So we'll just have to wait and see. It's boring answer, but there you go. No, no, no. Cherry, do you think that England would highly value IPL experience? What influence does that have to have that coaching experience, do you reckon? Well, thank you for asking. Why not? Because if that's the apex of D20 cricket, you're talking about a white ball coach, why not somebody who seen the roughest of it all in terms of pressure in IPL? I know that England will go for an English player coach. You've mentioned that sometimes in springy, you said that about Matthew Mott being a little too, should we say, academic or process oriented. Why not get an inspirational figure? Let me throw a couple names out, however controversial it may be. Why don't you get hold of, say, a raffle driver who just won into the D20 workup you're talking about, coach's contribution? Or perhaps get hold of Tony, say, come on over, show us how to do it. Or lots of other such fabulous white ball cricket names, because other countries do go for, and you have, of course, bads. So you could also, and I'm going to ask you that, Ali, if bads earn most of his purse in white ball cricket, what's he doing in red ball cricket? We talked about that a couple of years ago. Is there a particular reason that he can't coach England in white ball cricket? Because after all, that's where, and if he's done enough in test match cricket to bring that into almost like a white ball format, why not say, hey, listen, would you like to take over our D20 team as well? Or, of course, all these other inspirational figures I mentioned? Yeah, I suspect probably Brendan McCallum wouldn't want that all encompassing red ball and white ball job. Not many coaches do these days, do they? Because you can go and earn money just doing a six week, you know, franchise league in terms of white ball cricket, or a couple of those with good gaps in between. You can sort of plan your year calendar almost. Here's a name for you that would be, if you like, a quiet appointment, but someone who's quietly sort of been going around building his CV is James Foster, who's the former England wicket keeper, who was actually was coached at Northern Superchargers, but he's been a head coach in the Pakistan Super League. He has done assistant coaching roles internationally with the England team and with the New Zealand team as well. He's been an assistant coach with KKR in the IPL, so there's that box tick. That's certainly somebody who I think is just quietly going about his business, but without much fanfare. And then I want to chuck in the mix. What about at some stage a female coach of a men's international team? And I say this because we've got Sarah Taylor, who works with Manchester Originals men in the 100s. Obviously there's a Joss Butler connection, and I can think of Lisa Kightley, who the former Australian coaching staff of Rajasthan Royals, also with Joss Butler. Just something to chuck into the mix. Now history in the last week for Sri Lanka after their women's team beat India to win their first T-20 Asia Cup in front of a jubilant home crowd in Dan Buller. Sri Lanka won the final by eight wickets, and what a win it was because they were chasing 166, the highest target that any team has ever successfully chased in a final of a women's T-20 international event, and they stopped to dominate India's side, winning the trophy for what would have been at the eighth time for them. Now if you want to know just what it meant to Sri Lanka, I would say go and have a look on social media at the celebrations of the crowd in Dan Buller. It was quite something and even more remarkable when you consider that the Sri Lanka women didn't play a single match between March 2020 and January 2022 during the pandemic, and they had to come through qualifying to even make the upcoming T-20 World Cup in October. Well let's bring in Estelle Vasey-David, a freelance sports journalist from Colombo, who is at the final. Hi Estelle and welcome to Stumped. Can you just describe for us that final and what it was like watching Sri Lanka win it? Yeah hi everyone. It was, I mean a couple of days later it's still very difficult to kind of digest what happened because it was completely unexpected. I don't think anybody, maybe apart from the team, was expecting that result going into that game because India had been so dominant and had played so well throughout this year. Sri Lanka had played well but still you kind of had the kind of doubt whether they would be able to go one above India. It was an amazing result. I think the fact that it was a surprise maybe made it even better because I think that the chase after Atapat got out, everything happened so fast that you couldn't quite understand what was happening even in the press box. People were just surprised right? There wasn't any other feeling other than surprise because you couldn't quite fathom what was happening out there. Well so often you know I've watched Sri Lanka women's career for a long long time and with Chamri Atapat are being so dominant. So often in a run chase if she dominates with the bat then Sri Lanka win. If she falls early then Sri Lanka fall away. You know the score was what 94 for two when she was out so there was still a lot of work needed to be done and it was Samara Wickmore or wasn't it who stood up? Yes 72 or 48 was the equation and it did feel like it was just a bit too far. I mean in the semifinals Sri Lanka had needed 20 or 20 and they still kind of struggled to get there. Samara Vikramar it's incredible to talk about her because she'd put down two crucial catches in the first innings which had cost Sri Lanka just over 50 runs because Mandana and both both Mandana and Rishagosh both got runs and then to come out and play an innings like that it was incredible. I mean I've watched her since she was maybe 15. I've never seen her back like that before the way she was able to clear the boundary and just take the attack to India. I remember Atapatu got out and the next over they got like five runs and then from that point Samara Vikramar attacked and she was able to clear the boundary a couple of times and that just put the pressure right back on India because it kind of sent that message that Sri Lanka aren't going to take this laying down. They're going to come out aggressive and push for the win. I'm still hired as a Charu Sharma today in Mumbai otherwise from Bangalore. Congratulations of course and I mean not disrespect if you allow me to repeat the fact that India were probably the clear favorites. Just your thought on what went wrong I mean well some can argue that this cold and slowly to begin with even though Richard Hosh and Jaimima powered on towards the end and 169 is no means core. What do you think went wrong with the Indian team that they just lose hope because rather the other for instance went for I think the third highest number of runs for any Indian baller. What went wrong with the defense of that score? I think first of all 166 although it's a good total. I felt like on that pitch there was there was more runs available because part of the LPL was held there just before the Asia Cup and I think in nine games barring one or two innings every score was above 180 and there was 230 chairs there were lots of record totals there and in the Asia Cup India and Sri Lanka in particular had been scoring quite freely. So I felt that with the start they got with Smetimandana and Shafali were you know not losing their wickets early on. They may have been thinking about 180 but I just think Sri Lanka's everything kind of clicked right apart from those catchers. It was one of those moments where you know everything worked for Sri Lanka apart from the fielding even in the chase. You had that early run out but luckily you know the players were sensible enough for other but to not to cross on to the other side because that would have spelt disaster right from the beginning right. So I do think yes India didn't have their best game but it all it's that kind of thing with sports isn't it almost like faith where things just fall into place on occasions like that. Well I still, congratulations once again remarkable win but what's that do you think going to do to Sri Lankan women's cricket hereafter because winning in particularly at home against a really big team and as Alison was pointing out earlier you had to go through qualifying I will say and then you go on to win a major title it's quite remarkable. Is it likely to have long-term implications for women? I know already there's a big reward that's been promised I hope delivered to the team. Well I hope it does have a long-term impact it does feel like it will because growing up in the 90s I didn't see any cricket on the table any women's cricket on the TV obviously with the 96 World Cup for the men we were all very big cricket fans but we didn't the idea of a women's cricket team wasn't really something in our reality right but now and I think over the last couple of years with games being televised with you know resources being more accessible it has certainly become a more sort after almost as a career for a lot of girls and I think with this I saw a lot of little girls coming in like a lot of women bringing in their kids for the game a lot of women back home watching the games whereas you know I've had loads of friends come up to me and tell me you know they haven't been watching cricket that much a lot of women I mean and then this team is making them want to watch cricket right and I think that's going to trickle down to the young women and you saw the youngsters like Kavisha Dilhari performing and surely there are lots of kids out there thinking they want to they want to do something like that for Sri Lanka as well. Estelle great to meet you Brett Sprigge here in Sydney at the ABC. Charo mentioned that reward half a million dollars for the team US dollars which is fantastic especially given that there is still some distance in pay parity from what the men's team are owning but I want to ask you about the next World Cup the next T20 World Cup takes place in October Sri Lanka have now won 14 out of 17 T20 internationals this year they've beaten that series win against the West Indies they've beat the likes of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh of course can you see them having a big impact on that tournament coming up? Sri Lanka have got into what I think a lot of people would say is the tougher group so it's going to be a bit tricky getting into the semi-final but I do think given how they went I mean like I mentioned before this was completely unexpected right a final was was what everyone was expecting I think if if they hadn't made the final that would have been a massive disappointment but the ceiling was get to the final but to win it when nobody really was thinking they'd have a chance you can't doubt them now coming into the World Cup right it wouldn't be a surprise if they did manage to turn over one of the higher ranked teams I still think there is a bit of a gap in terms of skills between say the likes of Australia and India and teams like Sri Lanka but I do think if they do beat one of those sides and they haven't played Australia in the last cycle at all if they do beat one of those sides it wouldn't be a huge surprise. Estelle do you think that well I'd interesting to know actually a little bit more on the structure of the women's cricket in Sri Lanka how professional is it down the ranks domestically beneath the national team currently so I think over the last year they have contracted 60 players who are getting paid to play I'm not sure of the exact figures so I'm not gonna you know say anything about that but 60 players have been contracted and what's good to see is that 10 years ago the structure was dominated by the forces team so you had the Air Force Navy army teams that dominated ABC division right because what happened was that school girls who played domestic cricket would play for clubs like holes cricket club but they wouldn't get paid apart from a small allowance so when they did come of age like 1890 once they finished school over the last 10 years but over the last couple of years with these contracts coming in in fact I spoke to someone who coached me and coached Harshita as well Harshita Samar Vikrama what she says is now kids don't want to go to the army and navy because they're getting paid anyway and they don't feel the need to do that so that kind of that little step they've taken has obviously had a huge impact which I think in the years will make the domestic scene also more competitive in that way it would be great to watch and follow Sri Lanka cricket grow look forward to seeing how they go the T20 World Cup certainly now off the back of this Estelle thank you so much for being with us on Stumped thank you so much for having me guys it's been a pleasure as Estelle Vasidevan sport journalist from Calumbo this is Stumped from the BBC World Cup this season Instacart has your back to school as in they've got your back to school lunch favorites like snack packs and fresh fruit and they've got your back to school supplies like backpacks binders and pencils and they've got your back when your kid casually tells you they have a huge school project to do tomorrow let's face it we were all that kid so first call your parents to say I'm sorry and then download the Instacart app to get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes all school year long get a zero dollar delivery fee with your first three orders while supplies last minimum ten dollars in order additional term supply he was a kind of vigilante killer he killed at least 19 people during the 1980s in South Africa very dark times people were desperate we were looking for him we couldn't find him and nobody knew where he was every single one of his victims was black he reached such a stage where he was now hunting world of secrets from the BBC World Service season three the apartheid killer search for world of secrets wherever you get the BBC podcasts. I'm Alison Mitchell and if you've missed anything from stunt then you can download and subscribe to the podcast via your usual podcast provider and you can check us out on youtube as well head to the BBC World Service YouTube channel on last week's show we spoke to West Indies chief executive Johnny Grave who told us how they're working towards pay parity between men's and women's teams so yeah by 2027 we will have done I guess three things really we would have professionalised the women's system in the Caribbean it's still very much semi-pro we're going to have parity in terms of match fees for the two formats that the women currently play and we're also going to have pay parity and prize money and bonuses and captains allowances so effectively the the highest women's annual contract will be the same as the lowest men's and that's really indicative of the volume of cricket that they play more than anything else from the BBC World Service this is Stumped on ABC and off hash money next on Stumped can cricket help to rehabilitate inmates in prison we talked recently on Stumped about the global ICC development awards and we're going to hear now from another of the winners Mexico they won the development initiative award for pioneering multiple projects including sending a team to the street child cricket world cup in India and they were also recognised for their unique cricket in prisons program where they deliver sessions to inmates across Mexico City Ben Owen is the chair of the Mexico Cricket Association and Anna Cecilia Septun Goddard plays for the women's national team and they've been telling me about the cricket in prisons program well we have a cricket program in the prison system it started in 2021 we deliver the session of four train the trainers and a person from the sports minister king and he liked cricket very much and he thought this was a great opportunity for getting the sport into the prison system he liked best about the value of respect to ourselves to the authorities to all their people and to their rules Ben were there any reservations on your part to get involved with prisoners and I'm actually from a serious perspective what level of of prison category are we talking about here yeah we're talking a mixed bag of pretty much everybody it was one of it wasn't my first question it was my first fear I suppose was being able to deliver a feasible program if we ourselves were being held accountable to do all of the courses all of the training all of the follow-up that was only our only reservation apart from the usual worries that any associate member has is how can we get more kit how can we get more volunteers but I would say the first session I went to it was without a doubt the most moving experience I think I've had in cricket and you know Anna can back me up on this it's just you're bringing so much joy to these people who've for one reason or another are inside the problem that we always have is that they say can you come back next week you know can you come back on Thursday and you know it's always a case of can we commit what can we really commit to realistically in 2024 and so we took the decision very early to explain to Connaddy the Ministry of Sport in Mexico that we were very limited in terms of volunteers and feet on the ground as it were so the program has always been started on that basis that Connaddy sports educators would go in and run these sessions and that we would go in as often as we can so I think 2025 the program will grow enormously I think 2026 and after a while these sort of initiatives have their own kind of momentum and they look after themselves so our job I suppose is getting the thing going supporting the program at the beginning and then hopefully it will have its own momentum and fly from there Anna what impact is the program having on the inmates directly? The report is that they are improving their relation skills because they used to have more problems within themselves and since cricket I don't know if it's only because of that or for sure they have other things going on but they have less sites so they are working better together they are improving their teamwork not only while playing their sports but also like in their day to day life like have more respect for themselves and like living a more peaceful and comfortable environment so that's the main impact now like the direct thing that they reported that has happened What are you finding the facilities are then when you go into prisons because I imagine it can't always be easy to deliver a sports project in any given environment? No but I think that's one of the great benefits of cricket is that you can adapt it to whatever size of facility you've got you know you can teach cricket in a squash court if you want you know it can't always be lords I just went to see the gall cricket ground here in Sri Lanka as one of my favourite places I've always wanted to see it but we are often space deprived in in schools and then we're doing this in the Mexico school system they might have a concrete playground some of them might have a grass area but in the prisons we're training they have a big facility in in one of them the female prisons one of the smaller prisons that we went to you know the space was very very limited but they've adapted the game whereby you know if it hits the wall you can catch it you know one handed they invent their own rules which is really really yeah are you seeing any evidence perhaps that when an inmate comes to the end of their their term in prison the cricket might actually be something that they want to continue with on the outside the cricket program is inside a connada program which is part of that like they're training them to get a certificate for being official trainers so they're teaching them like physical activation how like medical and like how to take care of the body in a sports way and cricket is a sport that is not well known in Mexico so they might not have a competition you know so they might open their own cricket program so people will be interested and what is it this is a news sport okay it's it's interesting no and they might come so it is great too they will have this impact also or this potential of impact regarding employability which is very important for their reassertion and contributing and being part of the society again no so that's that's one of the the things that we like the most and Ben you've been trilanka for the conference he received the award there i imagine what does winning the award well first of all mean to you for the recognition and is it is it solely recognition oh here it is you're holding it up for the benefit of those watching on youtube that's huge that's it's enormous good luck getting that on the clock yeah it's bigger than my bag actually but here we go i mean it's it's a great pat on the back does it come with more than that what are the benefits of of having this recognition is it sort of publicity like interviews with the likes of us and is there something the project needs going forward we've had follow up interviews with various new sources any publicity is good publicity in our book with the ICC the great thing was that a lot of people at a very high level were very interested in the project and wanted to learn a bit more about it we've already got commitment to help us support the project and our schools project as well i think that really was a direct consequence of us winning the award but i think it's just also put mexico on the map a little bit lots of people have asked our advice of how to get the program started in the Americas which is where we reside and the really interesting thing is for the net benefit that we can get in terms of participation numbers that also has a direct consequence to our scorecard grant which gets calculated and recalculated every few years so there are a lot of direct benefits but um that's not the reason we did it in the first place but um it's so it's nice to see that it's opening up a lot of doors for us yeah to find out a little bit more about mexico as a cricketing nation then benham and you've been in post what for over a decade now as as chair and how many how many players are there in mexico can you paint a bit of a picture for us yeah so we started off with um cricket's always been played in mexico so it's been played there since the 1820s through its heyday in at the turn of the century and it really sort of died off during the war into war period uh and was reintroduced back by uh the British mainly in the 1960s and it's been growing ever since then really so it used to be very much an expat sport but we have our three main bases which are in carretero guadalajara and in mexico city so we're not localized in one particular place and we're trying to grow women's jr and men's cricket in all of those areas so i'd say men we probably have about 150 to 200 players um but our big focus really is on on women's development which was a key theme here at the conference and junior development as well so we've got players coming through the pipeline so how do we do that are you focusing on women in particular well the three initiatives that we had i mean the the great thing about us is that we're fairly resilient and flexible so if an initiative doesn't work we've tried to launch women's cricket three times now but we think that a huge opportunity is working with the ministry of sport and going through the university system so we're lucky to have very large universities in mexico with hundreds of thousands of students and we only need 50 or 60 women to to start the ball rolling so we're setting our sights fairly low but what we think would be a really great platform to grow cricket for the national team on the women's side would be to have a mexico university league yeah and mexico joined the ICC in 2004 wasn't it and where do you sit now in terms of i was looking down the t20 rankings at the moment and like they as attained you sort of somehow dropped off at the moment i couldn't see where you where you sat i did ask them that because we just won the central american championships this year and in all of the tournaments we compete in we normally get through to the final or at least the semi-finals so apparently we didn't play enough cricket in during covid which i don't understand how anywhere else did but that's what the ranking is but i think the highest we ever got to was around about 50 mid-50s that's what we're aiming for but we need to play more bilaterals and participate in more tournaments to push that up yeah is that the biggest challenge you face is is volume of cricket getting that amount well we have ICC guidelines you have to play a certain amount of uh recognize games so one tournament that we did very well in uh we found out at a later stage that the games weren't officially recognized they weren't recognized as t20 eyes so i think you have to be a bit creative about how you uh ensure that you're uh first of all complying with everything but also you're playing enough cricket and Anna as a mexico how did you get into crickets so i can tell you love it now yes i love it uh it actually was my sister that used to work in a school and the physical education teacher asked her if she wanted to be uh part of the cricket national team and she said no i don't want to but my sister me and she asked me and i said yes of course but what is cricket and that's how that's how i get into cricket i started trading it was easy and natural for me i have always played sports so i could relate not to not all of the movements because of course it has its own specific but i liked it as a sport but also the community like they were all very keen to teach us to to involve us together and it is a like international community which we have many different people nationalities beliefs ways of life and everything so i think that it all comes together you know the more i am involved the more it gets me and i'm very very happy i'm very into it well as Anna Cecilia Septon Godade plays for the women's national team of mexico and then Owen president of the mexico cricket association charry yeah i was in just a quick moment i if you'll allow me because one of the icons of indian cricket and a good friend of mine anchima gaiquard who opened for india as vastman also coached India for a while was struggling health wise that because of cancer he was being treated in the uk unfortunately has succumbed to uh the disease and it's it's gone around all of india where people have lamented his absence because he came from a major cricketing family the gaiquards who were huge names in cricket for over a century now and to have to lose anchima so quickly it was in the early 70s i think has just it's there's a ball of gloom now in indian cricket because he was a very influential and a wonderful man uh influential figure and a wonderful man and it's a shame that it's a sad loss for indian cricket anchima and gaiquard rest in peace yeah indeed i've seen a number of tributes being paid some including from ravi shastry who he said it gaiquard was his first captain at west zone and others paying tributes to the way he played in that pre helmet era in the 1970s you know wearing blows to the bodies from the west indies so condolences to all now that is all we've got time for on this week's stumped my thanks to brett sprig charis charmer and to all of you for listening and we'll speak to you again next week until then bye for now stumped is a bbc sport production for the bbc world service in association with a bc and a cash value he was a kind of vigilante killer he killed at least 19 people during the 1980s in south africa very dark times people were desperate we were looking for him we couldn't find him and nobody knew where he was every single one of his victims was black he reached such a stage where he was now hunting world of secrets from the bbc world service season three the apartheid killer search for world of secrets wherever you get a bbc part castes [BLANK_AUDIO]