SPIRIT School of Ministry
Kingdom Values | SPIRIT School of Ministry Podcast #104
Welcome to the spirit school of ministry podcast, where we discuss discipleship in your everyday life. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. David here with pastor Bob Wilk. Howdy and Jeremiah Tesco. I'm happy to be here with you guys. It's going to be a good, uh, good podcast. Yes. With, with my fellow kings here talking about the king. King and up. Yeah. I mean, we three king. To your kingdom come. Yeah. It could be a Christmas podcast. Um, it could be because it's about kingdom values, kingdom of God values, I should say, more specifically. Um, what do I mean when, when I say the kingdom of God, what do you mean? Well, let's, let's put that on the table. So we know, is that a real clear, you're actually asking this thing. Clear way is like, how would you say what the kingdom of God is? I say the kingdom of God is the place where God is king. Mm hmm. Good. Without that, everything else is kind of secondary. Isn't he king everywhere? Well. Yes. The big halt. Yes, he is. And, uh, no, he isn't. Yeah, yes. And no answer. Um, yes, he's the king now, whether or not he's acknowledged, recognized and, uh, yielded to the king and the whole different thing, because that king decided to give everybody else a free will. Right. And that's the issue. Yeah. That's what's at issue here when it comes to the kingdom of God. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So what about you, Jeremiah? Yeah. I love that definition where the king rules. It's his domain. Yeah. That's what a kingdom is. You can't have a kingdom without a king. Yeah. Like what you said about yielding to the king. I've always, I've, I've usually expressed it as the kingdom of God being God's direct rule, where everything is indirectly ruling everything through different means, but he rules directly in his kingdom. So, you know, Jesus said, pray, let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. So the kingdom of heaven, God has direct rule. He's directly responded to instantly obeyed, you know. So that's what his kingdom is, where he has the full sway. Um, and resistance is futile. Um, it's a different everybody. Yeah, it's in brutal. Uh, so this kingdom is, it's got to have values, right? So a king, he's, he's ruling and he's got values that he cares about. Where do we learn about these values? Is there anywhere in the Bible that we can, we can discover what the king values? Yes, the entire, all of it. I was going to say all of the above, right? I'm going to say every place in the Bible, we can go to, we can go to a couple of places, but yeah, absolutely. You know, I mean, a lot of times people want to go to, you know, Matthew and we're got Jesus is specifically talking about the kingdom and then expressing them, be attitudes and where they, how they reason, you know, uh, re, well, they, they reside in the kingdom and they are, but, um, yeah, I would just say the entire Bible actually, when you actually think about it, because do you see his, his lordship throughout the entire Bible and, uh, how he, um, expects to be responded to, and then unfortunately, how sometimes he's not. Right. And then what the consequences are, sometimes good, sometimes bad, um, to people not responding to his kingship. It's kind of an interesting right thing going on. Yeah. I mean, don't mess with the king. Yeah. I'd like to say long live the king, but you don't have to worry about that. He's going to be, he's going to be there when you're gone. I'm going to talk about the, the hereafter. That's why he'll be here. He'll be here after. When the eternal king, uh, the scripture, came to mind that the earth is the lords and the fullness thereof. So the earth, everything in it, um, of course he created the earth. So naturally anything he creates, he owns, uh, because it's out of his intent. It's, it's the, uh, a desire within his heart that actually created and formed mankind and all the things that we enjoy. Um, so yeah, he's, he's kingdom and heaven as you just referred to. Also, um, he rules over that. He is the lord of all lords, king of kings and lord of lords. And like dad said, with lordship, it denotes ownership. So he owns all of it. Um, so like a landlord, like my wife and I, we own a property and we rent it. I can be a landlord. And though I own the property and there's a person living in our property and I'm responsible to a degree for their life, I'm not responsible for all of their behaviors. Yeah. So there are things that they can do within my domain, so to speak, as a landlord that, um, are tough for me to touch because of, uh, the door that divides us. So I don't know. We're going to probably jump into that a little bit, but that's, that's the stuff that starts coming to mind for me. And you know how it is in Western society, we are not used to having a king. We're used to having a president that people vote for and don't agree with and presidents that are easily swayed by mobs of people who want things and want this and that they're not righteous, um, you know, things all the time. And so we just kind of get stuck in this strangeness of the world system that does not run like the kingdom of heaven. Uh, so this is very weird, uh, dynamic that we're, we're living in, in the earth. We're not of it. We're of a heavenly kingdom, but we're here in a strange dark cosmos. It's very tough for, I believe, especially Western civilization to understand king. Oh, I mean, we just, we don't get that. Right. Because this is someone who's sovereign, who's has, has, you know, control, has the last say, has everything and everything must bow to him. Right. And we don't get that because we, you know, here in Western civilization, you know, people don't bow to anybody. Right. You know, everybody's got the old pride thing going on. Yeah. Oh, no, it's bow to, bow to me. Yeah. Everybody, we got kingdoms. Kingdom on our own kingdom. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The kingdom of self. Exactly. Yeah. So the way that brings me to my next question is there could be other kingdoms clashing with the kingdom of God. Oh, sure. And what would their values be? Like, what, what are we talking about here? Is someone said itself? You said the world. Yeah. Um, what is that? So I like what you said about how someone can own something and be responsible for it, but not to blame for what people do in it. Yeah. Like if I was to loan somebody my car and they drove drunk, I would be responsible on insurance, but I wouldn't be at fault for further decisions. And so I think, you know, God, within his kingdom, he's got other people trying to usurp his throne. Little, you know, there's a count of that in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, where Satan's trying to usurp the throne of the most high. Yep. And there's other people like me that have also tried to be my own God. You usurp the throne of the most high. So what do we think about? What are the values of these other kings and these other kingdoms? Well, I'd like to go on record saying you make a pretty good idol. I am an American. But yeah, the other kingdoms, they're very interesting because they're many. And I really do like the analogy you gave of the owner of the place and, you know, how it does relate to us here on earth because, you know, God made everything here. But like I said, he, he equipped us with this. He yielded to us this free will. And that's the wild card there. That's the thing we get to work with. Right. And then in his kingdom, because of you, like you said, the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. Right. Everything is his and actually everything will bow to him ultimately, right. Even though there's a prince of the power of the air and prince of this earth and all that, we are like stewards. Yeah. That's the difference is that we, yes, we have free choice to do what we want to do or keep his kingdom the way we want to, you know, he's, you know, obviously gives the examples, you know, the talents and giving it to us to, to be a steward of, we have the choice, the opportunity to keep that or neglect it, right, to care for it or be weird and ruthless with it and abuse other people with it, which is all of those scenarios happen, which is kind of crazy about it. We can, we can be those people that Jesus talked about, you know, where you beat the servants that come, you know, and abuse people that, you know, have, you have care, you're supposed to actually have care over their life in every, and by the way, this is in every realm. This is not just a church realm. This is not just a religious realm. This happens in the world, you know, because people, we were designed as people to care for our brothers. And when we stop doing that, bad things happen and we yield the component of our stewardship that is so that God's so looking for, right, you know, and to understand okay, so we're, so we're, we're not our own. Yeah, we should be caring for other people. Anyway, it went off in a little tangent. No, it was good. So it was good. Just to contrast that, you know, there is a, there is, so you were asking about kingdoms and there's the S in there. I think it all actually falls back into two kingdoms, right? Kingdom of heaven or there's, as Jesus spoke about in the Bible, teaches the kingdom of darkness and which all men are born into, right? Dead and trespasses and sins. We are citizens, if you will, slaves, biblically speaking to the kingdom of darkness. We serve in that kingdom and some of the ethos of that kingdom, I use ethos loosely. But it is anarchy. It is whatever you want. It's whatever you think. Now, we do have earthly rules, you know, and governance. And so those things help to keep the crazy at bay to a degree. That's from God. Yeah. And that's all, I mean, that's a part of his, his kingdom, right? And what he established here. Um, and, uh, but the kingdom of darkness, it starts with that kingdom. And then there's tons of offshoots, but it's, yeah, it's all derived from that. It's all from the prince of the power of the air who was Satan and his minions as evil minions. And then he dupes. He, he deceives and he lies to people about their true, uh, freedom is in serving themselves and doing whatever they want. That's actually quote freedom. Um, there's a movie called first night. It's one of my favorite movies, uh, with Richard Gere, but the bad guy, the villain in it, he literally says that line for line. He's like, what about serving yourselves? That's true freedom. And the, and like Camelot, uh, the King Arthur of Camelot was, uh, was, uh, uh, Sean Connery, right? Sean Connery. And he's like, it's about serving others. It's about serving the greater good of Camelot, right? It was like, it's about, it's about the kingdom and the kingdom, uh, is about righteousness, peace and joy and the Holy spirit, right? We'll dive into that more. But the opposite of that is a kingdom that is self centered, self righteous. Uh, I want this and I'll step on you to get it. It's, it's ruthless. It's full of deceit, full of lies. And there is a, uh, a so-called lowercase K King running that show. Yeah. Well, I think the king in heaven is really looking to his, uh, sons and daughters in the earth to behave themselves like the king of heaven. Yeah. And actually execute, uh, judgment in the earth, righteous judgment, who justly love mercy, walk humbly with your God to yield our lives, um, to his will, like the king of kings did when he got here. And that is a whole different realm of being a king. That is, that really is a king that is benevolent and righteous and, and has justice in mind because he's coming to give his life for people. He expects us, if we're going to be kings, to be a priest in this earth, in his kingdom, to be able to lay down our life also, give it for his people, to emulate the God in heaven. Cause that's the, that's the king that he's, uh, presented to us, demonstrated. He hasn't given us another example. He's only given us that one example, yeah, the enemy who wanted, like you said, to you, sir, uh, the kingdom, the authority, if you will, uh, gives you other options, self-serving option, always self-serving options. That's really probably the best way anybody listening, if they want to be able to discern, just, uh, think about something you're presented with and figure out, does this serve you or serve the kingdom? Right. Yeah. It's a pretty good way to just judge things. This is the judging between what's right and wrong, good and evil people are trying to make it so difficult. Oh, there's so many gray areas. It's like, no, actually there's not just a black area and a white area. You just go there pretty darn quick. It's just like, but if you want to make it, you know, uh, if you, if you want some wiggle room, you create the gray area and go, well, you know, it's, yeah. You know, a sort of the king, the little K king would do it this. Yeah. So there's a debate over the nature of freedom because the core value of the kingdom of heaven, I believe is freedom, but how does that come? You know, does it come through? Like you guys are saying, exalting yourself through actualizing yourself, through helping and improving yourself, or does it come through laying yourself down in service to others, right? And so I love how you said Jesus is our example as our king, but he's not asking his citizens to do to live any different way than he lived. Whereas the other kings, I mean, we want people to be our slaves. Like we want, you know, the kingdom of the world and kingdom of darkness. We want to get a following. We want to get people that will glorify us and that will look up to us. We don't really want to empower them. We want to keep them at bay. So the way I get freedom is by winning victory over people and by distinguishing myself and exalting myself. And that's false freedom. That will actually make me a slave to the approval of others that will make them weirdly king over me. Yep. Whereas if I lay down everything and I just invest in the people around me, that's just to say, I'm not here for me anymore. I want to invest in you. Then I have so much freedom. I don't even have to look at myself and see where I'm falling short because I'm looking at the king and I'm looking at others around me. But I mean, to our natural sense, like you mentioned being born into the kingdom of darkness, kingdom of the world, in our natural default, that seems like slavery to us. Well, I have to, I have to serve other people. I have to do that for them. That's going to make me a slave. But it's so everything in the kingdom of heaven is totally upside down. I always call it the upside down kingdom. The values are totally inverted from what we would think that they should be. And so like we mentioned in Matthew five and Luke six, we have this, these beatitudes, we have these kingdom values that Jesus teaches about. And some scholars have called it the constitution of the kingdom. So this, this is like the Magna Carta or the Constitution. What it means to be like Jesus and follow him. And what are some of those things that God values? What are some of those character qualities that are going to be in a kingdom citizen who's really free, these, and who's really happy. What I really, and before I answer that question, I'd like to say, I really enjoyed what you said about the kingdom. God's kingdom is like an upside down kingdom to us because we're born dead, right in trespasses and said, we're born into this, this kingdom. Of the earth, if you will, the prince of the power, the air. And we have been conditioned to see things upside down, right? Inside out, right brainwashed brainwashed. We actually don't know any other way, right? And that's why I believe, you know, you have Christians who are actually supposed to be examples evangelist, if you will, in the earth. They're an example of Jesus Christ. Those are the things that we get people going, wait, that seems upside down, like, why would you do that? Why would you prefer somebody else? Like, it doesn't make sense. You don't get ahead that way. In our, in our, you know, world, you get ahead by squeezing everybody else down. Yeah. So you really, you don't even have to rise up. You just push everybody else down. That is a typical king, if you will, a process that happens in the world, right? Everything is pressed down. And meanwhile, Jesus is like, Hey, I'm, I want you to go do greater works. I want you to go and make the whole world great. Okay. And so he's, he's looking at like everybody's raising in this process. He's bringing it. He wants everyone who knows him and comes to him and accepts him to be brought into full sonship, into full, you know, Christ likeness. Right. He's, he's not interested in leaving a bunch of people behind or anything like that. And meanwhile, the world's just the opposite. Right. If the world can make you as lowly and as weird as possible and actually use all your gifts and you know, absorb what you got, take it, use it for their benefit. The world will do that. Oh, yeah. And that's considered, actually, that's like a badge of honor for the king of this earth, the small guy. Yeah. People say, Oh, I'm not going to serve God. He wants to rule over me. He wants me to worship him and all this. Yeah. Well, actually, no, he wants to adopt you and make you a son, where if you serve yourself and you serve others, you will be subjected. Right. Yeah. You will lose. Right. If you think that you win through winning, you'll lose. But if you think you win through losing, you'll win. Right. Right. Jesus said it that way, didn't he? You want to hold your life? You get losing life. You gain it. It's like, it's totally backwards from what we have been taught since you were born into the earth. Sure. And it's you're taught by everything around you. I didn't want to try to answer at least part of your question. Give me your question again. So we went up. What are some of these? Of course. Of course. How do these three citizens behave? What are some of them? Yeah. Well, I want to say a couple that come to my mind instantly when I hear that is integrity and honor. Like if without that, what do you have? You know what I mean? What do you have for people? You know, obviously these are all based in love and truth and all the things we're probably will discuss here. But they're there as a person. If you don't have integrity, what are you offering? Because I believe an integrals person is is concerned about you. Right. Yeah. Right. They're their strength is in in promoting you and in uplifting you and helping you become great. Like that's what Jesus did. And so yeah, that's my first. I love that. Yeah, what do you think, Jerba? I thought of those two and I thought of love. As Dad said, is God is love and he loved the world that he gave his son. You know, he if it is what he is, it's what he creates. Because so his essence is signature, if you will, as a designer is is on everything. And so in order for these things to work, we know that they're motivated by love or they have to be motivated by love. If it's not motivated by love, then it's self-serving. And that is the hardest thing, right? It's greater love, have no man than this than he laid down his life for his brother. And that's what Jesus did for me. That's what he's done for every single person. That's why he was sent. And when he laid down his life and paid that ransom and full, that is what gave us that opportunity to be adopted and to actually come out of that kingdom of darkness and into his great light and to learn how to live as a kingdom kid. We used to call him right when we were younger. Used to how to become a kingdom citizen because we've been raised in the upside down kingdom. It would be such a good movie or book title, right? Like I see that I see like the light, like the white castle and then the black castle is upside down. And in the upside down, you think you're right, side up, you know, those stranger things, right? Yeah, there was one there. There's there's a couple movies. Yeah, I don't watch. But yes, yeah. So it's like when you when you get because of that love that Christ went to the cross and laid his life down, right? He says, nobody takes my life. I lay it down, which is the perfect example of how a kingdom citizen should operate. Willing this, I know this is not, I'm just saying this, but this is not easy stuff, but it is a life, it was a lifestyle, right? We learn and we, we are taught of Holy Spirit. We're guided of Holy Spirit. We humble ourselves, but we learn how to lay our life down for our brothers. Yeah. And sometimes like example of laying my life down isn't throwing myself on a railroad track. So you, you know, don't get ran over by a train. It is preferring you. It is every time it as much as possible. Yes, yes, it's it's preferences, right? So like my wife has preferences. I have preferences. I, I may yield mine to hers at times because I love her, you know, like there's certain things that I may need to do for work that I don't necessarily want to do, but I choose to lay my life down and hopefully the situations do that or in conflict, right? Like to be the one that's like, oh, you're right. You know, I'm so, I apologize and I'll look the lesser. I take the, I take the hit so to speak, but without grumbling, it's more of like, this is what Christ did for me. So why can't I do that for somebody else? So that's one of the things I, it's probably, I mean, there's a lot obviously with love that I do on, but that's definitely a, you know, the Lord's kingdom, the kingdom of heaven, that is a primary substrate that causes it all to work. Yeah. I think it's important because without humility, there can be no love, you know. And so that's why I think in the sermon on the Mount, he says, blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are those who mourn, blessed are the meek, blessed are those that hunger and thirst for righteousness. This is like a desperate person that is just saying, I need God so much. And it's not about me, but I just need something outside myself. Um, and it's not something that the world looks on and says, wow, what a commendable trait that you have, um, that you're a lowly of heart, you're lowly of mind. And that, but that was how the king was not in a sense of inferiority complex. Right. Not at all, but in the sense of hungering for God, being hungry for him. And then the Lord has a space to fill in your life. If you're all, if we're exalting ourselves and why am I not getting respect from that person? Why am I not being preferred? Why am I not getting my thing? Well, then how can I love somebody when I'm offended at them? I'm envious of them. I'm threatened by them. I'm afraid of them. Like, how can I love that person? Right. When I have pride as my core, I can't live like Jesus. Right. I won't care. I won't want to. I'll hate the thought of Jesus because how could he ask me to do that? But if I actually have a hunger for Jesus and I see the beauty of who he is, and then I'm just like, I just need to be like that. I just need to be like him because of what what he did for me. Well, then, like, of course, from that place of humility, then I can see someone else's need and then I can say, like, like this great example, I don't need to be right on this or I don't need to be acknowledged or I don't need to be preferred here. I can I can wash someone's feet to resolve a conflict. Right. You might have to literally do that sometimes just like probably should. Yeah, you probably should say if you're not willing to do that, how are you saying that you're in the kingdom of heaven? Well, people saying that the other thing when you talk about love, there's the, you know, you have these opposing scriptures, if you will, you know, God so loved the world and love not the world and the things that are in the world and people, you know, hear that and they're like, huh, what? How does that happen? Well, there's a difference there. There's a significant difference because there's people in the world. That God absolutely loves. Right. And we should have the love of God toward them or we won't ever ask them to come into his kingdom, that period we you won't if you don't love somebody. Why would you invite them in? It's like keeping them as far away as possible for me, but that love, not the world and the things that are in the world, that that is the world system. Right. And that that's a whole different beast when we're starting to talk about the love of God because that is not the love of God. It has nothing to do with that. And it's got a system, that upside down system that is ambious, self, will, self seeking, it, it doesn't care about any, it's actually the world. And when we're talking about love, not the world, that world system does not care about the world, the people in the world, the people in the world, when you actually think about it, which is so strange. So this world lust, world love is not, it cares nothing about the people in there. So there you have the unrighteous, right, right, right, he who absolutely no benevolence, no care, no love, no righteousness, no justice, basically is indifferent to the world. Yeah, could care less about any of the people over. So the enemy, you know, he, when you actually think about it, he, he hates the world too. Yeah, they're born dead. And he's, he's like, yeah, he wants to take them all into hell with them. Yeah. Like it's, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's the, yeah, it's the cosmos, right? Like the world or the age, and it says in 2nd Corinthians 4 that Satan's the God of this age. That's right. So people look around and say it doesn't look like, you know, God's doing a very good job. It's like, well, you're right. The God of this age is not doing a very, you look at the wrong kingdom. That's why Jesus came to take the keys from him, right, why his kingdom is coming to, to its fullness on the earth to drive him out. Right. And so God does have a desire, but I love that you brought that verse in because it's like the wisdom from below. Right. James 3 says it's earthly, unspiritual, self-seeking, demonic. That's right. It's ruled over by the demonic. Right. So every time you have selfish ambition, this cuts again, this cuts so deep. Like this cuts, if you really take them, of course, it doesn't cut any of us. I'm saying it. I'm already, I'm already shot down. I'm saying every time you read, like you said, the whole book, the whole Bible teaches this. So every time you read the word, you're going to say, oh, I'm being told, don't seek great things for yourself. Baruch, right. Right. Jeremiah, 48, I believe. Right. What does that mean? No, I'm supposed to be my best self. I'm supposed to live an extraordinary life. I'm supposed to, well, yeah, but in what way? Right. Right. How do you, how do you get to that point? Is it by seeking yourself or by seeking him? Right. And so that's all the difference in the world between idolatry and true worship. Yeah. So this humility allows worship. That allows love, that allows service, that allows freedom. Right. If you get it backwards, you'll get the results backwards. So that's funny. We don't want to take the low road. Yeah. We want to take, you know, take that easy path. Yeah. Anyway, I was just smiling when you said live my best, be my best self. I was thinking, yeah, my best self needs to take a hike. Like it needs to die. My best self needs to be laid out because, you know, how, I mean, thank God for water, baptism. And we have a new mind, a new heart. And of course, he's, he's given us new spirits too. So he's sanctifying our soul. That's the saved being saved, hope to be saved in the being, save the present. And now, like we talked about some, some episodes ago, that to me is like where, where really all, you know, which kingdom are you, let's say living for? That's right. Cause you can be in the kingdom of heaven. You asked this a little bit early. You can be in the kingdom of heaven, but you can be operating according to the upside down kingdom, right? Even though like you have, you have an eternity secured with the Lord, you can still act like you're not a son of God or a daughter of God. And you can act like a usurper, which is really, really weird, right? Where you're like, Oh, eternally you're cool. Right now you are living, you're living opposite of the way that the Lord would have you to. And a lot of people, you know, they, they, they kind of boil that all down to, well, God has all these rules and there's all these things that you have to do. And like you have to do this to do that to do. And it's like, I don't think we're, we're understanding the real point. Cause it's not about, I love about Derek Prince says this. He's like walking with the Lord is not about rules. And everybody holds their breath and goes, what? It's not about rules. It's about relationship. And you learn that when you're in relationship, if anybody out there has been in a loving relationship with their spouse, right? I have a wife. We've been married for 16 years. Pastor Bob, you guys have been married 48. Wow. I'm an on 48. David, how long? Almost seven, almost seven. It's beautiful. All of us who have been married for a little period of time, I've probably at one point come to understand if I want my way a hundred percent of the time, this is not going to work, like it's going to go off the rails. And so I have to abide by let's not call them rules, but let's call them guides or, or tips or, you know, the way to get the best out of the relationship. If you learn how to live in relationship and relate to one another, you will find success in that. Now, when it relates to the kingdom of heaven, we have to learn how to one be in relationship with the king. That's through adoption, right? And then his sons through our lifestyle. And as we are in relation to the king, you know what the king does? And this is why he's so good. He's a good father. And he comes to us and he says, son, you're doing well. Here's how you look more like me. Here's how you can operate more like me. Here's how you can have more authority in the earth that I want you to have so that you can be that effective, effectual, representative of mine here in the earth, in the darkness, in the weird cosmos, in the upside downness of all of it, in the unrighteousness, in the thick of all that pride, you can operate in a way, and I have to equip you to do that. So what are you willing to do to get there? And that means that we have to give some things up. And I would, I would put it that way. It's not about living up to this rule check, that rule check, it's changing. If I actually want to be like my father in heaven, I have to let go of the old way of thinking, the old way of operating, the old OS, that operating system of darkness, the cosmos is got to get deleted and rewritten. And the Lord has provided those things for us, you know, through the waters of baptism and through just righteous living. That's what the Bible is supposed to help us do. So yeah, I think that rules might get you over a couple of speed bumps now and then maybe. But they can't sustain you. No, if it's not based on relationship, you know, they're talking like I've been married 48 years and faithful to my wife the entire time. That wasn't because there's some rule, right? That's not that that that's not going to cut it. Right. There had to be something there. There had to be some relationship. They had to be loved there. There had to be respect. There had to be concerned. There had, you know, all of those components of our life that God actually wants us to manifest in our natural life. You're on earth with people. He actually wants with himself. Right. Also, I mean, I know as Christians, sometimes we can get so, like we say, so ethereal. So heavenly that we have no earthly good. But the reality is, yes, he would, he's given us time to practice some of this kingdom stuff here on earth with people. Right. You know, how you actually honor somebody, how you, how you do that. And it's like you said, I love what you said is not, it's not just rules. Right. It never be that if it is. You're probably going to get let down or you're going to try to circumvent the rules. Sure. Or maybe stretch them a little or, well, that's not quite the rule. You know, or how do we interpret this rule? Right. You get a lawyer for you. Right. You know. A kingdom lawyer. Yes, a kingdom lawyer. Here's your kingdom appointed lawyer. I got, what can I get, because I think if you're dealing with just rules, then you're looking for ways around the rules all the time. Right. But that's kind of how people are wired. Right. Like how far can I get with this rule? If you're in relationship, there's no getting around that. Right. There's no working around a relationship. It's either you're in it or you're out. Right. It's not in between. Yeah. That's good. I believe it's not a rule. It's a way. Because he says the way is narrow, the way is hard that leads to eternal life. So there's going to have to be shifts to actually a line where you say your loyalty is with your life. Because we're talking about these long-term relationships. If I just say all day, oh, I'm so loyal to my wife. But I don't actually change anything to align with loyalty. I'm not. I'm not loyal. I'm actually still, I'm one of the ones that's going to come up at the end and he's going to say, why do you call me Lord, Lord and not do the things I say? Why do you call me Lord? I never knew you. Depart from me. Because you didn't enter into that relationship. Jesus said, if you love me, you'll keep my commandments. He wasn't saying, you'll love me. Okay, now I've got you. I've trapped you as a narcissist. Now I'm going to make you do whatever I want. Yeah, that's what's that's what people hear now. You know, but that's not what he's saying. What he's what John is even saying later in first, John, he says, if you love him, you'll keep his work. That's right. Because he's like, if you knew my best friend, Jesus, you would do whatever it took to be as close to him as you would do whatever it took to be right on his chest, hearing everything that he's saying. If you really love him, if you really see his glory, how he's different than every other king, how his kingdom has values that are totally revolutionary. It's a complete revolution. Somebody was telling me they spoke with the Palestinian Israeli protesters and down a major city. And there was one side saying, oh, kill the Palestinians. And one side saying, oh, kill the Jewish people. And we're right. They're wrong. We've always had this land. We've always had in the middle way, the way of the kingdom is, I'll die for either of you. I'll die for either of you to reunite you. And that was what Jesus did. He came representing the Jews and the nations. And he gave his life. It says in Ephesians 3, to make one new man. One man, right. Yep. To reconcile them through the blood of his cross. And so we have the answer as kingdom citizens. The answer isn't one religion over another. It's one kingdom over another. Right. And that kingdom is willing to die to save someone else. Right. This is a complete revolution. Yeah. If you aren't going to align your life with that, if you're going to say, oh, I like that idea. Oh, I like that Jesus stuff. I like going to heaven. But I'm not actually going to love my enemy. Sure. I'm not going to pray for the one that I'm envious of. I'm not going to pray for the one that persecuted me. I'm not going to be a doormat. Right. Blessed are the meek. No, not me. That's called being a doormat. Right. I have boundaries, whatever. Right. I mean, you should have some. There's so many psychobabble words that I can use. I can use, I'll make it personal. To escape aligning my life with self-sacrifice in the kingdom. Totally. And why would we choose that when it's the narrow way that leads to abundant life? Right. One thing you're guaranteed of is the kingdom, the king and the love of the king is going to be tested. You're going to be attested and you're going to be tested in your relationship, tested in your love. And I think people forget that and they try to avoid that at all caused. But the test is not an evil test. Right. It's actually to prove. Right. It's to prove you, to prove that. Mostly to prove to yourself because he already knows. I'm trying to prove to you who you really are and who you really capable of being in my kingdom and in my in relationship with me. I'm proving this in your, I'm showing you the strength that you actually have through the test. And it's, but if you we think we're going to avoid tests, then we're just fooling ourselves. And then when a test comes, it's a real problem. Because people will be like, oh, the king doesn't like me. You know, that's hard to get. Right. That's not working for me. He's like, you know, he'll look like a not benevolent king. He'll look like he harsh. You'll assume that's it. Meanwhile, he's doing it for our good. Like that's the deal, right? I mean, the Bible talks about this. It's, you know, he's that he's that good a father that he wants to bring you into full sonship. So you have to experience it all. That's good. Yeah. I love that. I wanted to add to something you said there, David, real quick was, you know, when we talk about the king, anytime you talk about a king, you talk about his kingdom. It's a placey rules, right? But then you also have subjects, which are, we use the, we use the nice word nowadays citizen, right? Or, or obviously your son. Right. But any kingdom, the king of that kingdom has subjects. These are all of the people that are underneath his rule. Yeah. And so there's something there that it always comes up. I hear all the time people are saying, we're doing this for the kingdom. We're doing that for the kingdom. We're doing this for the kingdom. We're doing this. We're earning this much money. We're doing that to take, take this for the kingdom. And I'm like, and if you aren't making your efforts subject to the king, I'm not sure what kingdom you're making all that for, right? And I know it's kind of a harsh check. He's just lost half of the, no. You know what? I say it to myself all the time because I don't want to get caught up in a kingdom propaganda, you know, which is like, it's another fancy way of masking it as, it's another fancy way of masking it as a prideful endeavor. But I'm saying it's for the kingdom when I'm not subject to the kingdom at all, which is very strange. So you, when you said that, I don't know why that was going off in my head. But I was like, we have to remember that we are subjects. We are underneath the rule of the king. And that's where the difference is, right? It's not just Jesus's savior. It's him as Lord. But then Jesus points us to the father who is king overall and or Lord overall. He owns all things, created all things, right? And so we need to live in a way that is subject to him. And then when you're talking about the way, I don't think of him writing a bunch of rules. It's actually his decrees. He says, this is my kingdom. This is how it's going to thrive. This is how it's going to grow. This is how it's going to produce. This is how you are all going to be free and produce and live. And there's going to be abundance. What person wouldn't want to live in a place of abundance and freedom and productive, productivity and goodness and faithfulness and integrity? Like who wouldn't want to live there? Great. You want to live there? Here's how you have to behave. And then he teaches us very gently as a good father on how to become a, let's say, a loving subject of his kingdom and the entrance. You know, again, that thing that's going to bring you into that's all motivated by love. It's all operated in by faith. And it's all for the benefit of our king. Well, I think also if you don't trust your king, you have problems with this. Oh, yeah. Right. Right. That's where, that's really where our faith, if you will, is based in. If we don't trust the king to be a righteous king, then we will act like he's not. We'll always be second-guessing his commands. Right. We'll be second-guessing his care and love for us. And we'll look at him like, you know, like, well, he's like a different kind of lord. He's more of our task master. Right. Right. So we, and, right. Tyrant. Yeah. We're, you know, now we're he's subjugating us rather than us bringing our lives to him. Right. And there's a big difference because, you know, you can, you may be forced to yield to something, you know. My gunpoint in some places, right? But your heart's not yielded. Right. You're not, you're really not giving over to that. You're just, you're, you're complying. Right. Basically, because of force, he, he does lay out, like you say, the commands. They are true. And maybe because of the fear of the lord, as well as the love of the lord, we should, we should be cognizant of his commands. That's not a bad thing, by the way. Right. I'm not saying the be afraid of the lord. I'm saying the fear of the lord to recognize that he's a just god. Right. But he's also, you probably shouldn't mess with him too. Right. He's actually a god of his word. Right. When it says that he's going to do it. Right. He's not going to back down or, you know, have, you know, like the, the old, the old, uh, King James, shadow of turning. I know he doesn't have that going on. And so, but the reality is he, he is a, uh, he's a promise keeper. He keeps his promise. Exactly all of his promises. That's the deal. And we should, uh, when we understand that about him, that's where I think we have to deal. If we're going to, if we're really going to talk about this kingdom of god stuff, we're, it's going to, the dividing line is going to be whether or not we trust. Right. The king. That's right. Because if we don't, we will create these other things. And like, I love the tag on the kingdom of god. Like there's the tag line that goes with it. Yeah. And it's, it's like, no, that's not the kingdom of god, actually. You just called it that, but that's not what that is. And, um, and you're just, you're living, uh, you're living on the other side of the, the upside down, the inside out one. He just your heads. Your heads. Yeah. Your heads either there or other places. But it's like, but it's not, it's not, it's not with god. Right. It's not, you're not, you're not seeing the king for who he is. Um, in his majesty, awed by him and in love. Right. To the same time. That's the deal. And there's such a balance there that I think a lot of times Christians don't have. So that's why they can tag on the kingdom of god. Something that's really not the kingdom of god. Right. And it sounds right. Yeah. You know, it sounds good. Yeah. I mean, his disciples thought that like, right? Yeah. What are we going to take over? What are we going to do? I need my sword, right? What else do I need to bring? And he's like. The rebellion begin. Like leave it all at home. Don't take anything with you, actually. And they're like, what? Yeah. I think, you know, you said like, what is the way it's, it's his example. Yeah. No, it's the, it's Jesus's example. Right. And so you'll trust him if you just look to his example and how he lived things out. And also like, we're talking about all these commands and things we want to do. All these elaborate things for the kingdom. But really the, you used the word ethos earlier, right? Like really, the heartbeat of the kingdom is so simple that you're just like, you know, be perfect as your heavenly father's perfect. Yeah. I'm just kidding. That is the most, but actually that is his summary statement. He means be relationally perfect. And in the sermon on the mountain, he flushes it out a little bit where he says, let's, let me tell you what this looks like. You pray in secret. Right. You fast. You give to the poor. You don't resist the one who's oppressing you. You bless your enemy. Right. You're the salt of the earth. You're the light of the world, like anybody can, anybody can get that. It's just very difficult to do, right? That you're like, even when I'm being trampled on and oppressed and persecuted, I'm, I'm blessed. Right. So I should just still serve and I should still love selflessly when I'm not getting anything out of it. And I should still proclaim God. And I should still find my joy in the secret place. Who wants to live that way? It's so backwards. Does anybody actually want to live that way? Because it seems to me, if you live this out, you will make a big impact. You'll be very different, but you'll also be pointed out as different. Yeah. You'll also be crushed a little bit as being different. What should people be expecting if they really want to live, live this kingdom life? What have you guys discovered in, in coming under the rule of the king? What's, what are some things that people should expect? Well, as soon as like, come under his rule, like, you know, I'll get back to an answer that question. No. That's true. I didn't mean 100% perfect. One day I was that one day I remember. In general. When I got saved the moment after I got saved. Right. The odds have been, it's been downhill. That's funny. It's a great question. Have anything on that? It's an impossible question. You answer first. Okay. I'll do my best. Well, I'll tell, I'll, I'll give you good news. The, our ultimate example in life was just make it relational is Jesus Christ. And if we read through the gospels, I mean, you got to read the word to know who God is. You have to understand his character. I love what dad said earlier about the king. If you don't trust the king, well, you probably don't trust the king because you don't know the king. And you only get to know the king by knowing the son, right? He says, if you've seen me, you've seen the father. So you get to know the son by reading through the gospels. And you get to know the son by trusting Holy Spirit and he leads you into all truth. And now we're coming into a greater expanse and knowledge of God, so to speak. And when we come to understand his character, we'll better understand why he would choose this or why he would choose that. We won't know all things. We probably know very, very little, you know, this on this side of eternity. So that's the first thing is getting in the word will get you in oriented towards the way the king thinks because the way the king rules is probably the way he thinks, right? With the rulers, the way he demonstrates his kingdom, right? Through his lordship, that is the way he thinks. And so I want to know how the Lord thinks, right? It's like, if you have a boss and you're working for them, you want to understand how they think. Like, why do they approach it like this? Why do they do it like that? Oh, okay, got it. I get what he's trying to do. And so then you can better serve your boss, so to speak, right? And just a simple analogy. So that for me is one thing that I would recommend. And then one thing that I've personally have understood is this whole idea that well, I'll just share this, like, I don't care about money, fame, attaining things. Like, I used to only live for that. Like, that was very much a part of my young upbringing and my way of thinking was like, I'm going to have this. I'm going to have that when I get older. I'm going to drive this kind of car. I'm going to have that much money. I'm going to have this, this. I mean, it goals up the wazoo. And the more and more I've gone on, the Lord is like, do you really want that? I'll be like, actually, I don't. He's like, cool. I got something better for you. Oh, okay. What is it? He's like, walk with me for a little while. And I've, you know, later, you know, things came. And all I can say is when the Lord reveals heavenly treasure to you, or heavenly rewards to you, and whatever measure that may be here, again, on this side of eternity, those far outweigh all of the earthly ambition, earthly ideals, earthly things that you covet and want and have goals for, and set your ambitions on. And what usually, what started to happen for me is that those things just seem to just fade away and fall into nothingness because they have no real merit, you know, in the long run. And so for me, walking by the kingdom or, or, you know, right, seeking first the kingdom of God, and he will add to you, that's exactly that. Seek the kingdom first, all the other things I'll make requests, and he will add them as I need them as he sees fit. But I just throw myself, you know, in a manner speaking, he's mercy and say, Lord, whatever you want to do in me, do it. Now I'm saying that very bluntly right now, you know, after a lot of years of walking with the Lord, like 40 something years, and not all 40 of them, probably like 39 and a half of them have been very resistant to, you know, and I'll just the Lord's been working something in me the last four or five years that's just completely just stripped off all the just worldly pursuits, and where the kingdom and the king living like the kingdom and being a true kingdom kid is just kind of, I don't know, it's good to come to the surface. I'd rather finish strong. Yeah, be good. Yeah, wow. Hope to make anything on your, your heart pastor, Bob, as far as the kingdom is concerned and me and the kingdom. Final words in the kingdom. I know words of the kingdom. I want to just say personally, his testimony of always found that my king has always provided everything I needed. I mean, sometimes when I didn't think I deserved it, sometimes when I didn't think he was going to provide it. And I'm not just talking about monetary or there's that, but just life, like things, relationship, certainly with him, and Holy Spirit, but also here on the earth. And so, yeah, he's been a faithful, faithful king to me. And I think that's, that's an important thing. And I, you know, trust in him for that. You know, and yes, it's a, you know, it's an ongoing thing, right? You always get tried and tested in areas. But I've, what I've noticed is that he's, he's remains faithful. Yeah, I guess that's the, the thing I'd like to leave people with as we, as we go here. And I would say to those, you know, as we say, goodbye to you that to get to know your king, get to know him personally and see how much care he has for your life and how much he wants to provide for you. Yeah, I mean, I, I just wanted to add one other thing is I meditated a lot on the beatitude that says, "Blessed are the pure in heart for they will see God." Yeah. And if you would spend a lot of time meditating on that, blessed are the pure in heart, the undivided, the unmingled, the unmixed, that you seek first the kingdom of God. Like Jeremiah said, you seek the king. You just, you see him for who he is in his word. And you say, God, just give me a united heart that everything I do is for your glory. And a lot of days you're going to pray that a lot better than you're going to practice it. But you just pray it every day. You just bore in on it and hone in on it. And all of a sudden you want to be like Jesus in every element of your life. And you want, you just want people to see him, you know, because you're pure in heart, you've seen him. You've seen him because you've sought him without an ulterior motive. You've not sought him to get something out of him, but just because I want to follow you. I want to walk this narrow way. It's the only way to eternal life. And as you have just seen the Lord, other people, you want them to see him. You want to embody that and you become the difference. You become that different person, the salt and the light. Again, it's not a it's not like doing it in perfectionistic ways. It's it's just I want a pure heart. And when I have a pure heart, that's somebody that God can use. It doesn't have to be this super gifted, talented, rich, connected person. It has to be a pure hearted person. Yeah. That's really what what he's trying to establish in his sons and his citizens. He was like, that person has a whole heart after God. So I just want to encourage you guys with that along with great, great stuff that my friends have said. And hopefully you'll check back in with us on the next podcast. Thank you for joining us. Be sure to subscribe to get the latest episode. And for more information, visit spiritschoolofministry.com.