Thanks very much for your time. Really appreciate it. So it's a pleasure question. I mean, well, just tell me about a couple of sensors on NASC so we know about your organisations to start with. So, NASC is 79 years old, 80 next year. We've been synonymous for setting standards in and around scaffolding within the UK and international market. Very well known for RTG 2021 guidance, RSG4 guidance, which is all about improving safety and efficiency in the use of scaffolding and access systems. Membership that represents roughly 80% of the UK scaffolding pounds based on 2021's ONS. So yeah, a very recognised organisation and one actually I'm quite excited by because actually scaffolding is somewhat malign Roger. You know, people think of scaffolders, they think of that high street, they're here of that cliched wolf whistling. But actually scaffolding is extremely essential to the UK economy. Everybody says, oh, it's about construction. It isn't. It's actually beyond that. It's about utilities. It's about oil industry. It's about aviation. It's about shipping. It's about facilities management. So your shopping centre, when you need the lights in your beautiful building, as you're walking around those malls, all requires access systems and scaffolding. So again, think of scaffolding in a broader sense. And I'd encourage all of your listeners and viewers to think of us in that way. And it's the standards that we set, our organisation, my organisation sets, and the members that deliver that are expected by the clients. That's really interesting. Again, yeah, the application of scaffolding, we don't always think of everything that could be useful. But no, absolutely. But we do see some pretty spectacular particular projects and sites, especially we travel down the motorway and see some of those by the side of the road. It's quite incredible. So if you get into the seat that you're in, then climb in that kind of sense, what's that story? So NSC is a membership body, is where I've worked for some 25 years. And membership organisations, like gyms, like golf clubs, are a subtly different environment, partly because of the governance structure that they represent the views of their members, their aspirations and expectations of the members, while also having to deal with the ecosystem that they're actually working within, and the sector they're working within. And so for 25 years, I've worked in varying different sectors, but I've actually worked in one, and that has been the third sector, not-for-profit membership body sector. And so I'm regarded and from Plant and Tour hire, to construction, to air ambulances. I have worked in some very, very differing and very, very broad sectors, but the common thing is a organisation or individual paying a subscription to then receive a service. No, absolutely. And in great career, I looked at it before we were chatting about it. And so let's follow on that theme in terms of membership organisations, because they, if we haven't run one, we've certainly probably been a member in a membership organisation. And it really is quite a different dynamic. And I think it's quite tough, isn't, to ensure that you are keeping, providing the needs of all those disparate members happy. So give us a clue. What are some of the important things that you have learned through all this experience in terms of ensuring that you've got a happier and inefficient and successful membership organisation? I think the biggest thing is knowing what your members want and delivering it. I know that sounds like a really stupid thing to say, but knowing what the members want is the really critical thing. So actually doing regularly members perception surveys, actually dialing down no disrespect to the governance structure. The governance structure is extremely important to ensure the executive is delivering what the membership wants. But actually one member or a group of members that is the governance needs to be given good quality information to make good decisions. And so you picked up something there, Roger, a real nuance of actually the membership sector is about actually that broad appeal. How do we appeal to the micro SMA and then the multinational or the individual versus the business, or actually I only want this element or that element of the full membership offering. We'll actually have to know in detail how many members want that, how many members need it. And I always use the gym analogy, you know, some people want the free weights, some people want the cardiovascular equipment, some people wants the classes in the studio. And a good gym has a wealth of experience and can then charge appropriately. And I think that's the process. The other aspect is actually communication. You have got to be an exceptional communicator in the membership world. It is like insurance. It's only needed, especially in business to business membership environments when there is a problem. And if there's no problems, if there's no perception of a problem, the actual membership organization can sometimes be perceived as an irrelevance. And you have to, in those circumstances, massively increase the communication to become a visceral part of the actual member and understanding that they're getting something, even though it may not make much of a difference to their business in the here and now. It's actually draw there. They're getting a physical item out of it. And many trade bodies are joined and worked within the early parts of them. I have been seen as in some parts of my careers as a troubleshooter in trying to re-energize the typical variable has been the lack of information that is coming out of the organization and that there is no engagement. And the apathy that then results in actually decay of membership and lack of understanding. I love your gym analogy. I think that's brilliant. And I think that idea, that desperate nature of the smallest guy, the biggest guy, you actually really do want different things, but you are one organization serving them at the end of the day. So I can see how that's tricky. And yeah, I think you're keeping it lively and alive and dynamic is again what you said at the end. Just one thing that interests me on that as well, maybe barking down the wrong road, but do you trade organizations in this kind of sense, sometimes end up being lobbyists on behalf of their members with other groups? Is that something you do? And what have you learned about how to kind of lobby in terms of on behalf of members? Are there any tricks or thoughts you have about that? Well, I'd actually go the other way for a business to business trade body. If you're not lobbying, you fail it. And it's actually a critical part of any trade body. There's a dichotomy though. With every trade body, you have an membership that is sitting out there unless you become regulated, such as, for example, gas safe register, where you must and your mandate to be part of it. But what you actually do is if you have a membership that has a problem, especially one that might be at a macroeconomic level, it will require government intervention or regulatory reform. So you have to lobby, you have to engage, you have to speak to and change the lobbyists that I was exposed to in my earliest trade body at higher association Europe, some 25 years ago that we needed to engage. There was issues around health and safety, there was issues on VAT, there was issues in the business taxation model. And so every single trade body has to do that. The real weakness is that dichotomy that actually you win, a bucket, you change something, you get a regulatory reform order that changes the legislation and removes a barrier to the secretary working with him, it actually benefits the non-member. And actually, you have to be really careful because there's a nuanced message you must think through as a trade body in actually saying, actually to have a say on what the trade body is saying is the benefit, it's not actually the change. And if you want to change your sector, be a member, and that's the actual benefit of the lobbying. But there are simple requirements, I mean, one from an NSC's perspective, for example, on on ULS and the proliferation of ULS and the inflationary increase on cost to the business is something that we are lobbying and talking about and are highlighting that some vehicles that are older within the scaffolding fleets are not ULS compliant. And all we are doing is actually putting a cost on in an environment that is already cost sensitive certainly within the domestic model because of the cost of living in crisis. So it's quite interesting having to explain that. Are we looking for legislators to change their opinion and their view possibly, but actually we're here to inform and advise and guide. I think there is one other answer to answer your question about how did I get into lobbying or being part of lobbying. And I'm quite proud that actually for the last few trade bodies I've worked within, I've been involved with the highest levels of government, including the right minister. So yes, I've done some journeys, even the chancellor just that left office after a general election. And there's one common thing, even at the highest level or the lowest level, is not to be sensing there as a trade body bleeding. I've got a problem, fix it for me, government. You've actually got to go actually government. The VAT issue on charities is really crippling. But if you made some small changes to section 28, see the VAT Act, by just changing two words, you could have this massive impact and improvement. At least can you make that change? And that's the one thing I would say to your listeners, don't go in just saying, oh, by the way, this is hurting, solve it for me. Go in with the solution. And if you can't find the solution, you need to rethink your strategy, because government will not look at it. Be that national, be that local, be that provincial, you need to think about what the actual solution is. And is it palatable? And if it isn't palatable, to the electorate, you're in a very, very tough fight to make that change. No, I think that's really interesting. You're looking for the win-win. And yeah, you're right. Winters and Monas aren't going to get anywhere. But if you can go with solutions and you can help the other side, then in that kind of sense, then that's really good. And politics is the biggest beauty pageant on the planet. Let's not forget, politicians want wins. They want to look good. If you cannot provide that, you're pushing. You're pushing against the door that's quite possibly very firmly locked. And about how much you can convince the civil service in the UK. And so it's a great idea. If the politician says, no, this is not working, you're not going to get it through. And I think your point as well is, and I'm sure, it's about building relationships with those people. That's what you mentioned. And that takes time. And that takes effort, but it definitely pays off in the long term. But it's quite hard work because you've got to build those networks, build those relationships, give a value to that person. I think that's what you were saying in terms of like, I'm going to be helpful to you, and therefore you build a trust in relationship and therefore that works. And I don't underestimate our heart that is to keep them in it. Yeah, sure. And I mean, one of the things we do with inside NESE right now, there's a very well recognized skill shortage in the whole of the scaffolding sector. Part of that has been the challenges around Brexit's part of that has been challenges around the pandemic and people returning to their naturalized homes where they came from. And then you've got the additional burden of actually upskilling the work, the current work, or saw the appetite to engage. And scaffolding as a sector is highly rewarding. While it has, yes, some image issues, which we're tackling as a really pragmatic trade body, what I find really quite exciting is actually you can earn up to £160,000 as a scaffolder. Well, this is amazing. And so when we talk to the lobbyists, when we talk to government, when we talk as an organization making those representations, this is actually an ability in a sector which can take a low skilled individual and actually give them a highly paid position in a sector that actually has been somewhat maligned. So while the win-win is there for the politician, the win-win is actually employment is improved, high salary expectation is achieved, and we have to communicate that. No, absolutely, I'm going to get that. And yeah, yeah, and relationship has been so important. Let's just talk about people, because obviously you've got people in your organization. It tends to be one of the biggest things that people talk about in kind of a business sense. What's your take on recruiting culture, all those kind of aspects? Tell me about that. Well, I think with people, you're absolutely right. An organization is not built on one person and a very dear chairman of mine said to me many moons ago, Clive, Clive, go marching ahead as fast as you like, but inevitably on the battlefield, you'll be that lone soldier being picked up right at the front. And if the army is not behind you, marching forcefully forwards, you're going to take the ground. And so it's absolutely about the people. It's absolutely about the people that you gather around and build. It's absolutely about three key things, about the values that those people of the organization that they see being absolutely instilled into those individuals, be those the current team or the new team as you build into. Secondly, is actually the aptitude of the individual. Are they wanting to do this? Are they feeling that they're on the mission? And you can talk about Maslow and self-actualization and all of those sort of points. But the reality is, if you've got somebody who is feeling disillusioned and they're not going to join you on that battlefield, so you've got to actually win that heart of mind. It's not about their skills. It's not about their capability. It's not it is about actually are they wanting to do it? And if they're wanting to do it, they'll go the extra mile, they'll learn, they'll innovate, they will educate themselves, they will do things to actually make themselves want to do things. The final thing is providing actually the bedrock of learning resource. It's all well and good having the capability of mental forties. You know, I want to do this. I'm going to go forward and we're going to work as an organization. But if the skills set there are, for example, presentation skills, I don't know how to do a presentation or I don't know how to structure a presentation. I'm not confident in getting on a stage and talking or talking to a small group. You've got to give open access, free access to that knowledge so that they can skill themselves up. Because if they have that, they will flourish. And it's by doing that and actually building it in a clear way that everybody joins the dots. You can actually do it. And having an open ability to say, sorry, I don't understand that help, please. And having a team that rallies as a team around that individual to build them is absolutely key. No, I love that. So yeah, so you've got values, aptitude, and then kind of personal development. I think that's terrific. And just do you see that being different across the generations just out of interest? I mean, as we get younger people coming into the organization? I think there's two aspects with the younger generation. We're in a very interesting space where education is something within the UK market. We've had for 20 years now, 50% of the population must get a university, which is great, absolutely. And speaking from within the scaffolding sector, that has substantially maligned the vocational qualification and vocational working environment. So we see an awful lot of individuals coming out saying, I'm fully qualified, I'm experienced, I've got to turn a knowledge item and I demand to be the managing director being exaggerating. But that expectation of actually like you pass your driving test, you only just at that point start then learning to drive. And that's actually the challenge that we've actually got an extremely knowledgeable young, extremely capable, energized workforce, a massively inexperienced one, and actually narrowing that knowledge via experience. Coming back to personality traits of the individual, a lot of that comes down to their life experience, their knowledge, what they've done, they're wanting to and coming back to that second point about people, they're wanting to do something. If the person, the young person wants to do it, everything else fits into place, they will learn, they will be a sponge and absorb the knowledge, absorb the culture, absorb the working practice, absorb the processes. And it's then not about actually well their age or the demographic and Dera said we focused on the young, but actually I look to the mature market and I see some amazing people, we see current employees to individuals who are past retirement age and are amazing. Their knowledge, their calmness, but also wealth of knowledge that they then bring to the younger people that are joining the organization is really, really quite helpful. So having that really good age spread is really helpful. Yeah, and yeah, generations do want different things, and those younger people that you've hit the nail on the head, as whilst they might not have the experience, they definitely want to join businesses that value that and going back to the values report and the aptitude and then to personal development, younger people I do find actually want that. Where am I going to go in this business? What are you going to give me? How are you going to try to meet? Sounds like you do that in space. So that's terrific, that's terrific. Sorry, no, I think the one thing that, you know, again, you've got to think about it is what a person, an individual, that keyword individual brings to the organization. And if you've got IT skills, if you've got a young person who has got an abundance of IT skills, well, that's not a negative, that's actually a huge positive. Use the energy that's inside that interests that skill. AI, sorry, this little thing that's blipped up two or three years ago, it's transformational. And if you've got a young person who's got that real ability, or use it to improve your efficiency, use it to, to the maximum, and guess what? You again, motivated the individual. It's about that motivation to have the values of the organization understand the direction of it's coming and to take their best skills. No, absolutely. And again, interesting, I mean, efficiency and productivity are going to become much, much more of a theme as we go forward with, even with lack of flavour skills, etc, etc, really want to be as efficient as we can. So yeah, that's a great thing. So, and so keeping on kind of leadership, what, what have, when you look back, what are some of your biggest, maybe learning in terms of your leadership journey and what, what comes to mind when that question gets last? I think listening is one of the biggest things a leader needs to do. It's all a good flag waving and marching forward and being that this, the values, this is what we're doing, but actually listening to and hearing are very different and being emphatic around what you're hearing, what you're doing is really key. Being a, a clear communicator as well, making sure that there's confidence from the communication. So getting that down through the tears of the organisation as well, having regular meetings, everybody goes, oh, really, a lot of people, you know, don't work at the same speed as some people, an email does not necessarily get read, a team's message doesn't necessarily get read, WhatsApp's don't get read. So working through as a leader and understanding that actually all of the dots within the organisation, if you're going to get that motivated maths or go in one direction with one aspiration, you've got to have a very clear business plan, you've got to have a very clear operational plan, everybody's going to be able to access it, read it, understand it. In my world, within NSC, that goes even further because I have to also inform and engage the governance and the membership body. So I have to not only communicate down, but also out in a far more, and so the several tools that we use and I use, I use, you know, online platforms to project, manage and guide, give people open access, free information, transparency is all critical because just being in transmit through email does not get that message over. Sure, no, I think it's really interesting and it links with what you said before, is when we talked about membership organisation, you said the most important thing is to really understand what the membership wants and then you talked about surveys and those kind of things and that's that listening piece, isn't it? And it's a danger that we make assumptions about what people want and I guess the world changes so quickly and things change for members or clients or customers and therefore do we really understand what's changing their world and what they need and what's different. So yeah, I love the listening piece and I think there's too many examples of people where they don't do that and again, make assumptions rather than really listen. I think there has to be a clarity there around listening and hearing and also listening and hearing something that's possibly either an irrelevance to the direction of travel of the organisation in that it's a minority opinion and this comes back to knowing your data, knowing the quantum and the size of the membership body or your team and how bigger the problem is in the greater scale and making sure that as a leader you're being emphatic and supportive of what might be a minority but also not applying hours of resource to support that because actually from small fractures do bigger problems than occur because if you're not listening to that one small fracture, if you're not listening to that one problem, you are not listening and it becomes a dull toothache and over a period of time like any good dentist will tell you, look after your teeth because it's going to come back and hurt at a later point. Sure, no, I know a really valid point, no, excellent. What final few questions? What about the future? Is there anything that comes in your mind in terms of the business future going forward? What are the things that you are conscious of that might be issues as you think about the next period of time within ASC? For any SC at the moment, I mean there's some very exciting opportunities for the scaffolding and access sector. If you're looking at the government's ambitious house building projects, there's some macro issues around that, be it planning, be that capacity of the craft skills that are needed for the housing. The scaffolding and access sector will be pivotal in giving support to expedite and improve housing and the housing stock of the United Kingdom. What I think is quite exciting though is if you look at the East Anglia challenges, it's easy to build houses but you've actually got to also think about the infrastructure, water, energy, utilities, everything that goes alongside that growth in population also magnifies school production. Production of energy, we have several members, any SC has several members working in the nuclear sector, working in Henkley points, solar field, etc, building capacity into the electrical market, roads, everything, everything, all the infrastructure so we don't focus just necessarily on the housing, it's actually the full ecosystem economy that actually builds. Other opportunities as well that certainly the sector has got to seriously look at and that's digitisation. Efficiency and when we're seeing still shortages, you've got two options. You can either just say, okay, I'm going to limit my business to the personnel that I can work within or you look for innovation and we're seeing a lot of manufacturers coming up with some very innovative ways, be it physical or digital, that are actually enhancing the capacity within the actual physical sector. So I'm bringing 30 and 40% improvements in efficiency, which means actually your workforce challenges around your actual talent are actually being a mitigated and minimised by the improvements. If you look at technology, understanding your carbon utilisation, understanding energy efficiency is again allowing you to move budget from potential other areas into your training and education, it allows you to focus in other areas. It also allows you to look at things in, there are some wholesome way that you can actually take a whole organisation and very quickly say digitally. What's going on? The first time, I mean, I've talked for 20 years now and I was an earlier doctor of the old IPAC, HPIPACs, back in the 1990s with Outlook which started and I'll never forget it. There was this thing called the internet that just emerged and it's all going to be a revolution. And way back then the construction sector, which I was then working in within, was very, very rudimentary. It was, oh no, no, no, no, technology's just not well. We're working with plants, tools, we're still using three-part NCR set order forms. All of that was the way forward. Today, I can actually say inside any SC, I've been absolutely blown away at digitisation. And while it's still the construction sector, there are organisations that are fully digital, that don't use paper, that are actually calculating all of the inventory that needs to go on a vehicle to go to site so that they've got enough tube fittings, boards, sheeting, etc. And the right teams are there. The teams aren't having to go to a yard and have the briefing. They're actually getting the briefing electronically. They're arriving to site. They're partially breathed already. All done and they, you know, hold on, that's saving time. It's saving, it's engaging. And so technology absolutely is one of the great opportunities. One of the things we've got to be cautious of is geopolitical. Let's not forget, we have just seen Europe having its first war. We've just had a pandemic. We've just had a seismic change politically. And with all of that, we need stability and the opportunity of stability within a sector is really key. And while I'm quite keen to make sure NSC keeps on pressing, because only well people invest if they know that there is a degree of sustainability and stability within the economy. And I think that's the one thing we need to start protecting ourselves and building a strong, resilient economy within the UK is key. And so looking to our new administration, we need to be seeing the government absolutely fortifying some of the announcements that they're certainly making seem to be given positive, but equally some of the three general election messaging, certainly around workforce planning, etc. As an employers organisation, we need to be equally guarded and supportive of explaining to government, well, if you do implement these changes, these are going to be the consequences and actually they're counter-intuitive to NSC. Not necessarily what you want out of it. What's really interesting when you talked about digitisation, and that's a much faster moving world, and it moves faster all the time. And I think then, Lincoln, you've talked about the geopolitical situation, we've had quite a calm period of time, and as you've made the point, things are beginning to move on that, and you put those two things together. He's definitely an ever faster change in world, and therefore reacting to that is good. But actually, the irony then, you're talking about the stability, potentially, of certainly, I think, of government to keep on a certain track that can help is really important. So, no, I think really great three points there on looking to the future. So, a couple of final questions. One is that I also noticed that you kind of give back your a chair of a academy trustees. So, just tell me a bit about the giving back piece that's important to you. Well, it's something that I've actually held dear, going right the way back to I was working with Video Arts and Junkley's training film company, and I was approached to go and work in this thing called Higher Association, Europe, it's a not-for-profit third sector trade body. I was like, oh, what a little old Clive in his 20s was kind of what's this not-for-profit malarkey in this trade body. And of course, it's been a thread all the way through my entire career. I'm either a member of all being part of trustee boards or varying organisations, or working for the air ambulances in transforming not only their economic environment with it changes to V8C for charities that are operating within the air ambulances, or the physical changes around landing sites and improving access and egress to ambulances getting to landing sites. These have all been things that either small light touch, small levers being pulled either in the trade body, or as me sitting on an organisation and knowing my experiences of governance and bringing in some of the commercial realities that can improve, I think it's a win-win. And why would you not? I mean, the social sector, the third sector, is always somewhat maligned and misunderstood. And that word profit is absolutely essential. I mean, NASC gives back so much, but it can only give so much back because of actually the surpluses that the organisation fundamentally makes. And I'm very proud, you know, NASC is a portal issued in June of some 12,000 compliance sheets that are guiding the scaffolding contractor and also the client to say, this is a safe structure. You can use it up to these thresholds. It's been designed to that. That is saving life. That is putting scaffold collapses. We don't just do that for NSC members. The ePortal is accessed by over 70% non-members. That's a premium. I'm not saying that's just to quell my members who will be saying, "You're giving it to work yet." No, but it's why and why, because NSC has a moral obligation to improve and support the sector. And so from my personal perspective, any of these organisations are getting involved in, it's about giving back and but also seeing the positive effects an organisation can have, but through good leadership and good management. No, I get that and looking at the wider view and you're right. I mean, it's in interest of your members that the sector is elevated and therefore accessing why you're going to do that kind of thing. So, no, okay. Right. That's the final question. That is just a quick one in terms of, is there anything that or anybody that's inspired you? Is there anything in terms of things that you've read or podcasts or all the kind of things that... It's interesting. There's two answers there, which bring two core values to me, and I believe strongly in working hard. There is, and people will say to me, "Clif you work too hard." But I actually quite enjoy it. I enjoy making that difference. And if I didn't, I'd be, yeah, I'd be letting myself down and I find that really a challenge. The second is about efficiency. And my poor wife keeps on getting me going, "Why are we touching this three times? Why do we do what?" And I look constantly into efficiency, and that has come from really two inspirations, partly domestically through my family and my father, inspired me by a good work ethic and getting up and getting things done and being almost relentless, tenacious and driving forward. But also, I've had inspirational chairs. I've had inspirational management, and that's inspired me to try and be inspiring back. I'd like to hope that I be my chairman within the air ambulances, be it my managing director that I worked with, with a higher association Europe. They gave me clear understanding about management structure, the way things worked. It's easy to go and read about Maslow, or it's easy to go and understand about the Boston marketing majoring, etc. But actually applying it and having mentors around you that can make it applicable and show tangibly the differences is really there. As to social media and stuff, I have actually said this in the last two weeks. I do wish we could go back to the 90s. I do wish we could get rid of social media. I think there's a lot of benefits in keeping in contact and engaging in many ways. But unfortunately, some of the things that social media does, I think it loses some of the negatives. So I'd love to say get inspired by these other areas. But actually, a bit of a traditionist, I think inspiration can be more about the people, the books you read, the way you get the quality value in your life comes from those that are around you. And I think that's the big thing. I'd encourage any of your listeners to not necessarily go, "Oh, great. I'm watching the F1 podcast. I'm blown away by Toto Wolf." The Toto Wolf is brilliant. Don't get me wrong. And yeah, but actually being next to Toto is how you get the inspiration, not getting it through social media. I think that's a really good point. And your point about hearing about your previous chairs, because they've been through it before, I guess, other people inspired them. But that passing down to experience and working with people on a one-to-one basis is a real, real value. And you're right, there's a limited amount. You can read the books that you can be academic. But there's a lot about real life experience, which is great. So Clyde, thank you so much indeed. I've learned a lot about the NAC. I've learned a lot about you. You should be very proud of, obviously, what you're doing. It sounds like you're really taking the organization forward. And I'm sure you've got to go. Mostly happy members. I know you don't make everybody happy all of the time. But it sounds like John. Yeah, Roger, thank you for the time today. Look, it's a great, great to meet you. And I'm really pleased. Yeah, NAC is moving forward. I think all of the organizations I've worked with, I'm merely the leader. It's the team. It's the team inside that organization that actually makes the difference and actually makes things actually happen. And like that analogy, I said, there's no point being that alone soldier on the battlefield. You need the team to come with you. Absolutely. No, that's great. Clyde, thanks. Thanks for your time. Really appreciate it. And all the best as you've got. Thank you, Roger. That was featured. All right. Thank you very much. Yes. Thanks, Roger. Bye-bye.
