Pop Culture Man Children
352: Talk to Me (2022)
(upbeat music) - Welcome to PCMC, pop culture, man, children. I'm Mike Bungiorno, I'm joined today by my good friend Nadia Kader. Nadia, how are you? - I'm good, Mike, how are you done? - I'm doing very well. - Ooh, all right. - I'm feeling loose, I'm feeling good. I'm excited to talk about what we're gonna talk about today. What are we gonna talk about today? - We are talking about talk to me. - Talk to me from 2022. This is a horror film, an Australian horror film. It's the, if you've never seen it, it's the movie with the hands, you saw the trailers, they're all over the place online. - You know, you know what's really bizarre though? It's like, I watched so many of those trailers, got really into it, was excited to watch this movie, didn't know it was Australian until five minutes into the movie and realizing everyone had an Australian accent. And I was like, how did I miss this in the trailer? - I haven't watched the trailer since I saw the movie, but you know, some, I wonder if they hide it. 'Cause sometimes they do that, like the way they hide musicals, like you don't really know what it is until you go. - Like, oh no, people think that they need subtitles to understand Australian accents and not gonna go see this movie. That's... - Australia had a problem with, I recently watched the Netflix series, Derry Girls. Have you ever seen Derry Girls? - Oh, I love that show. I had to watch that with subtitles. - Yes, me too, 'cause I could not understand what they were saying. - Irish accents are so thick. And some of the word choices, like they call everything cracker. Like, I'm like, what the fuck is happening? - The slang is so unreal. 'Cause you also could consider it's '90s Irish slang, so it probably didn't come over here. - Yeah. - There's also, okay. One of my, the most bizarre things about watching that show is do you remember the dance where they went to this school dance and everyone did like a rowboat line dance? - Yes. - I had to look that up, that was real. That was a real-- - Really? - It was like the Macarena versus the UK. - Wow. - And when I was watching that, I was like, this is so coordinated and strange. And I was like, no, people did this. People sat on the floor and pretend to row a boat all in the line. Which I guess, you know, it's not more insane than the Macarena. 'Cause again, that is also-- - Do the Macarena hardcore. But people still at weddings, like if it's in all the crowds, we'll do like the electric slide. Or the funky chicken. Like people still do weird shit. - They do. It's still weird though. It's weird to like, it's weird that's normalized and then seeing someone else's normalization is also, it reminds you of how weird people are. That's my take on that. But yeah, so "Dairy Girls" is excellent. Yes, you do need subtitles, but it's totally worth it. Or at least I don't know. - I didn't need subtitles for this though. Talk to me, came out in 2022. It is directed by Danny and Michael Felippo, who were also YouTubers. They started as YouTubers. Which was, you and I also talked about the parafilm skinimmer ink. And they were YouTubers too. - I guess this is the future. Like we're gonna have like, that's a way in. You know what I mean? Like go from YouTube to filmmaking, which is fine. - Do you think it would be YouTube or like TikTok or Instagram? - I feel like maybe all together. But I feel like TikToks are too, they're too small. You know what I mean? Like people don't get too cinematic with them. - No. - Whereas like I looked at a little bit of these kids' YouTube stuff and I was like, okay, I could see how they became filmmakers. - What were they making on YouTube? I didn't see that. - Like kind of horror comedy stuff. This movie is directed, sorry. This movie is written by the two brothers. It's also written by Bill Hinsman. And it's based on a concept by Daily Pearson. It stars Sophie Wild as Mia. Joe Bird as Rally. Alexandra Jensen as Jade. Miranda Otto from "Load of the Rings" as Sue, their mom. Zoe Taracas as Hailey and Chris Alonzo. Aloisio, sorry, there's no N in there, as Josh who's... The more I've watched this like three or four times now, I like Josh more every time I watch it, even though he's not a good person. - What do you like about him? - He's funny, he's wild. I like the way he... He's the sort of keeper or one of the keepers of the hand. So anyway, I wanna go through the whole movie, but the idea, if you don't know, is the... It's in Australia and there are these kids. And these two kids have a... It looks like a ceramic hand and it's got like writing all over it. Like you would see like on a cast of someone like broke their arm. And they play this party game where they tie someone to a chair and then that person and they light a candle and then that person like holds hands with this hand statue basically. And they say, "Talk to me." And when they say that, they can see the dead. They open themselves up to perceiving spirits. But then the next step is they say, "I let you in." And then they become possessed by the spirit. And what's really, really interesting about this movie is that they depict the possession as a high. Like the reason why these kids are so drawn to it is like when they do it, after they come out of it, they're like blissful. They're like, "Oh my God, what a trip." And the movie kind of depicts using the hand as like a drug addiction. It's really interesting. - Oh, yeah. That was an interesting take that I wasn't expecting. And also every encounter, they're recording it. - Yes, yes. Social media is a big part of this movie as well. There's a lot of interesting concepts in here. I wanna go through it because I wanna ruin it for everyone who hasn't seen it. But I wanna go through it because when something's this good, I like to close read it a little bit 'cause I feel like there's so much to talk about. My one elevator pitch for this movie is it's somewhere in between an Ari Aster movie and an '80s teen slasher. It's got the disturbing imagery of Ari Aster, but none of the malaise, none of that depressing stuff from Ari Aster movies, it's got kids in it and it's flashy and fun on top of being super scary. It's produced by A24, which I don't know if you know this, like young people, young film fans, they love A24. A24, we're at a place now, I think, where it's almost like the early days of Hollywood cinema where MGM was known for their musicals and Warner Brothers was known for their sort of black and white gangster movies and stuff. Kids would be like, oh, this is like an A24 movie. I've seen Instagram videos with just an interesting filter and they'd be like, ah, this is A24 vibes, which is, it's very simplistic, but I like, I find it cute and I like, I like that kids like it. You know, I was an older person, I'm always worried that people just gonna stop caring at all about movies. It's just gonna be me. So I'm like, when kids are into A24, I'm like, okay, that's cool. I love A24 and I'm middle aged. So, it honestly, A24 does give me hope. As a just, you know, the production and they've really been folk, they do other stuff, but they-- - They distribute a lot too. They did, you know, a lot, they started off with just a distributor, but they do, they take gambles on things. It reminds me of, and this is gonna sound bad, but it reminds me of Miramax way back in the 90s before we knew Harvey Weinstein was a serial rapist. Like, do you remember when Miramax was like shorthand for like indie, cool little indie movies? - Yes. - It kind of went downhill after they won an Oscar for, what was it, Shakespeare Love? But like, there was a time where it was like, oh yeah, Miramax, Quentin Tarantino's movies came out of Miramax and stuff like that. - Okay, all right, yeah. I know, I see what you're saying. I'm looking like on A24 is like Wickey and they do a lot of distribution, but you're right, like some of their, the distribution is really interesting, like everything everywhere at once. - Yeah. - Horritatory. This movie talked to me, Midsomar. - Right. - That, I didn't see it by one or two, the Iron Claw that was there, was it good? - Yeah, it was good. It was, it's already depressing. - Yeah, that's a line, okay. Yeah, so it's kind of interesting that it said, yeah, every time I see the A24 logo, I get excited. So I was like, okay. - Yeah. - And I'm in for something just kind of, you know, interesting. And it's funny that you say it's kind of like an 80s slasher mixed with, sorry, well, Ari Aster, yeah. Yeah, it doesn't quite have the Ari Aster, like a cynicism that he does. - Right, that Dower look on the world. - Oh God, yeah. Like, I think the most Dower was Bo is afraid, which is-- - I haven't seen that one. - Oh my goodness. It's, it's basically, it's like the most non, it's the most horror, horrific non-horror movie that I've seen in a while. Well, the whole concept is basically this man being haunted by the relationship with his mother. Just like she's this like glooming presence that kind of like takes over his life. It's basically like every Jewish man's nightmare is like-- - I was just saying, is it about a young Italian boy? - Well, you know, Jewish people, Italian people are kind of, you know, they're kind of like cut from a similar cloth. - Yeah, oh, also the depiction of New York in that movie is like every conservative's nightmare, it's like what they think New York is like just being outside, you could be violently attached to any moment. Like, when I was watching that, I was like, this is so funny, like this is unreal. Yeah, so anyway, yeah, A-2-4 is doing some great stuff. Back to talk to me, what it kind of reminded me of are the insidious movies, like the way they did-- - Sure. - The Afterlife and how the ghosts are kind of like out of time a little bit in comparison to real life. Like, that you kind of took from there. - Yeah, I agree, yeah. A couple of years ago, me and my brother did an episode on the great film It Follows. And have you seen The Follows? - No, I haven't. - So in that movie, like the menace takes on different, it appears looking like different people in different, and sometimes they're in costume, sometimes they look bruised, sometimes they're just, there's one now is just oddly tall. And we really had like a real semiotic time going through all the different kinds of it representations and saying like, what do you think of it? I think that could, we could do that a little bit here too because every spirit that you see in this movie, just by looking at them, it tells a story, but you're not exactly sure what the story is. A lot of them look waterlogged, a lot of them look like they drowned. And there's even like, sometimes you hear like a bubbling, like watery sound in the background, which is really weird. And they all have to also like pale like rheumatoid eyes, like milky eyes, all the spirits in this. - Yeah, it's interesting 'cause it kind of takes on like, it's as if they're showing what their body is probably looked like if they weren't embalmed. It's kind of, yeah, but not, again, it's like, like you were saying, it kind of seems like under watery, but then you wonder is it because they, that's how they died or it's because the under, the afterlife is kind of like being under water. - That's what I wondered, I feel like this movie, like I wrote a list of like discussion questions because like there was certain like open ending mysterious things in this movie that I wanted to talk about 'cause like, you can really dive into like, what is this movie saying about the afterlife? You know, what if, I've never thought of the afterlife as the only, what an interesting thought, like afterlife is under water. I mean, why not, right? Let's say there's a such thing as an afterlife. Most of this planet is water, so why not, why not your spirit goes under water? That's an interesting idea. Another really interesting idea with this movie is that the dead are horny for living people and they miss having bodies. They miss having corporeal bodies. So like they're very, very sexual. When they, when they possess you, it's a very sexual thing. There's one kid who he does the ritual with the hand and like he starts like robbing himself and he like comes while the spirit is in him and there's another one who like, that really weird woman looking one who's like crawling on the ground in like a nighty, but like she looks all bruised and stuff and her hair's all wet and she sucks on the kid's toes. - Oh God, that was what, I text you about that when I watched it. I was like, this is one of the most harrowing things I've seen in the horror movie. You know, back to that kind of underwater thing 'cause at the end, we get a glimpse of what the afterworld is like for the ghost 'cause we only see them in context with the living. And at the end, it's completely pitch black. Like why wouldn't that be the middle of the ocean? Where we have nothing. And that's also absolutely frightening and maybe it's cool. Maybe that's why they look waterlogged and wet and maybe they have an empty feeling or feeling of coldness and that's why they're going for the living. Which is actually, that's actually something that happened in the city is 'cause I watched it a couple of months ago. - I've only seen the first one. The first one, I think, is the best one. The second one, I watched in theaters and spoiler alert for a 10 year old movie. It kind of has this weird, almost psycho ending where like, an evil ghost turns out to be like because they experienced forced gender kind of reassignment. Which is like-- - Was not this a sleepaway camp? - I know, I was like, this is two. And even back then, when I watched it, I think that's, if I'm remembering this correctly, I was like, this is too late in the game for this kind of movie. I'm like, this is-- - Was it too written by J.K. Rowling? (laughing) - Oh God, she keeps digging her own grave, man. Like, that's basically her career now. It's like, let me troll-- - Yeah, I know. - I'm like, that's it, I don't need to write books anymore. I just need to make trans people feel bad about themselves regularly. - Really? But yeah, so there's kind of a similarity of like the dead or craving being alive and that's what draws them to this hand. - Yes, and they're devious too. - Oh, yeah, which makes me wonder, are these, that's not answered though in this movie, is like, is it every ghost or do some move somewhere else? And these are the people stuck in some sort of purgatory? - Right, yeah, the film in some way seems to answer questions, but the more I've watched it, the more I've, I found what I would say are purposeful incongruities that I think are there to make you go, well, let me think about it. Like, you know what I mean, like, you've seen the original exorcist, right? - Yeah. - One of the things that's in the movie that was in the book is that Regan has a, the little possessed girl, she has a terrible violent reaction to holy water, but then the priest says it's actually not holy water, it's just tap water, she thought it was holy water, which is an incongruity, right? It's one small piece of evidence that she's actually not really possessed. And in the book, there's actually a lot of that. The book is way more, you can kind of read it any way you want, you could read it as she's possessed or you can read it as it's this other phenomenon. - Like psychosomatic? - Yeah, exactly, yeah. - Oh, okay. - Yeah, 'cause there are incongruities here, there are things that are like, why did that happen or why did they say that? Or, you know, the whole thing with the main character's mother, I think, I want your opinion on it 'cause I don't know if it's as cut and dry as they say. But, all right, let's start, sorry. So, it begins, first of all, it begins with 900 logos, it's like that family guy, you know? That's how you know a movie doesn't have a lot of money and they're just getting a little money from everybody. It's like a million, you're like, oh, this is the movie, no, it's another logo. Oh wait, okay, this is the movie, no. It begins with a unbroken shot of this kid going into a wild party and he's looking for his brother, Duckett. And if the kind of follows him into the house, past all these kids and all these lights and people screaming, he's like, "Hey, if she's seen Duckett and someone's like, "Who the fuck is Duckett?" It's just like a party. And he goes into the house and then, you know, somebody in the house goes, "Oh, your brother's locked himself in the bedroom." And again, it looks like it's a drug thing. It looks like someone's freaked out on some kind of hallucinogenic, the way it's being depicted, right? Because partying and doing drugs is always somehow related depiction wise with the hand. So, the brother breaks the door down and there's his brother inside and the one inside, they don't see his face, his back is to us. And he's got like bruises and scratches all over his back. And he's like seeing shit. And he says that the interesting, and this is evidence that maybe the spirits lie to you, the one inside, the one who's having the breakdown says to his brother who's saving him, "Pop said you heard a lot of people." And then the brother's like, "Pop's dead." Then the other brother says, "You're not him." It's just like, when I first watched it, I was like, "Okay, just weird, crazy." He's like fucked up language. But the more I think about the more I'm like, just like with later on with Mia, was he actually talking to his dad or is it a spirit pretending to be his dad? But anyway, they come out of the party and now when they come back into, again, it's all one shot, when they come into the kitchen again, everybody's got their phones out and everyone's recording this happening. And the brother who's with it is like, put your phones away, this is fucked up, blah, blah, blah. What's wrong with you people? And then the brother who's having your fit stabs the other brother in the chest. He falls down, everyone's screaming. And then the brother who's like, seeing things walks outside and it just stabs himself in the eye. And then it's the title, "Talk to Me." That's all we've shot. That's our beginning. And then we meet our lead character, Mia, who I think is a really good performance by this actress, Sophie Wilde. But what did you think of Mia as a character, as a person? - I think she's clearly a very flawed grieving character and I thought that was really strong. Like, I think generally when we look at horror movies, we don't get, we don't have characters, so much as character, like, arch-types. - Yes, yes. - And Mia is very complicated for me. And she clearly makes a lot of mistakes. - Yes. - And is very affected by her mother's death. And it's, I think this movie does that really well. Like, she's clearly a three-dimensional character. - Yes, yes, yes, I agree. I agree, yeah. We know her mother died and she's not, she's very isolated. Like, the first time we see her, she's like had, she's in a public space, but she's like listening to this music on headphones. Or listening to some different headphones, maybe some recording of her mother. So she's sort of isolated. And we know that she has a dad that she lives with, but the dad's like always in the background out of focus. Like, she's so isolated. And she's kind of glummed herself into this other family, her best friend's family. And her best friend is Jade and Jade's mother Sue and Jade's little brother, Riley. She like sleeps over there constantly and is like, kind of like, you know, in a way that seems unhealthy. But again, it's three-dimensional. You know, obviously you see why it's happening, but you can tell it's unhealthy. She sort of weaseled, I'm weaseled the way is not the wrong way. This is not the right way to say it. She's become part of this family somehow. And her friend Jade is dating a kid that she used to like and probably still does like, it seems. She makes jokes about it, but they're uncomfortable jokes. Like when the boyfriend's name is Daniel, when he comes in, Jade hugs him. And then Mia comes up and hugs them both and says, our boyfriend, which is, yeah. There's awkward shit, there's awkward shit. And people don't like Mia. Like the two, the two characters that have the hand, which are Haley, who's a non-binary character and their friend Josh. They're throwing party and Mia comes in and Haley's like, oh, fuck me. Everyone's like, holy shit, this girl's here. It's like, it's very awkward. The movie's got a lot of awkward fucking shit in it. - Yeah, even though the character, the actor that plays Josh is like not a teenager. I mean, he looks like a big dude, but like, yeah, I was looking up the IMDB. Like he is not a teenager. I think he's like 30 something years old. But they feel like teenage structure, I guess. It's, I don't know how to say this, but like it kind of feels just teenager-y. I don't know if that makes sense. - Like, obviously they know Josh and Haley because they go to the same school and Josh and Haley have been posting these videos. Like this stuff is all like, we're kind of in media res. Like they're talking about videos that they've been posting about people being possessed. And Jade is like, this is bullshit. She's faking it for views. But you don't get the feeling like they're actually friends with Josh and Haley. 'Cause Haley's kind of a dick to everybody. - Yeah, it's kind of like Haley's a dick, but they know because they have this hand that they can treat people kind of poorly because they have this power. - Have you, you know, have you known drug dealers in your life? I have known plenty. - You know, I'm kind of like an oblivious person. So I'm sure I have known, but maybe more- - Let me tell you from my experience. - Sure. - Drug dealers sometimes, I'm not saying they're all bad people, some are great people. And I've had friends that were drug dealers that they were actually my friend. But there are some drug dealers that are, they know that they have a thing other people want and that's their big draw. So they get their socialization through that and they like that people try to be around them. Even when sometimes they be, they're kind of a dick. It's a weird thing. Like a drug dealer sometimes will be like, make you hang out with them. I don't do drugs. I haven't done drugs in almost 10 years, but I remember what I was like. - That is great insight. So you would say that this was a pretty accurate- - They're like dealers. Haley and Josh are like dealers, right? They're kids that they know in school, they don't really have a problem with, but they're not really close to. They throw these parties. You know, they are, they're the keeper of the hand and the hand is the drug in this movie. - Yeah, and I thought that was a good choice. - Yes, yes. - 'Cause you have to have some sort of motivation of why people wanna do this thing. And teenagers with drug use and also that kind of peer pressure, I think they work really well together. - Yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely. And for Mia, she's dealing with so much grief and so much pain. She wants, I think she wants, I mean, often people who are depressed use drugs, right? Like, she wants that vacation from her mind. You know, she says, well, there's another character on Jade's little brother, Riley, who's like this very young kid. He's trying to be cool, but he's like a young kid. And he asks, after Mia does it for the first time, like, let's just be with her. He says, how did it feel? And she says, like, it felt amazing. It felt great. Everything was okay. I was like, it was my life, but I was in the passenger seat, not in the driver's seat, which is like drugs. (laughs) You know, but the great comedian Eddie Peperton said, like drugs are just vacations for poor people. - I think that's a great way to put it. (laughs) Because I feel like generally as a society, we see drug use as like a moral failure without taking into account what, why people do drugs, like-- - Right, right, of course. - Like, for example, in homeless people, I've always, every time that kind of comes up, there's always some person in a competition that's like, well, you can't give homeless people money because they'll just use it for drugs. And I'm like, yeah, 'cause they're homeless. Where are they-- - We're like, let them have drugs. I can't, they have drugs. Like, and illegal-- - You can say that to themselves to convince themselves that they're not big people for not giving them money. That's really-- - Yeah, it is. - They're like, oh, I don't wanna give them money. Although there was a unhoused guy that I used to see every day outside, seven, 11, near me. And I would give him money. And then I stopped because one time I gave him money and he just won in and bought a scratch-off ticket and lost. And then came out again and I was like, did you just use my money to buy that scratch-off ticket? Like, yeah. I was like, why don't you use the fucking money to buy something? Like, food. He was like, oh, I win sometimes. It was like, nobody wins sometimes. I mean, yes, we all win sometimes, but you lose most of the time. I'm not giving you money anymore. (laughing) - I like that that was the stopping point for you. You were like, drugs, fine, but Lotto tickets? The tax is only more-- - The tax is just money. - I don't know. - I don't know. I sound elitist whenever I talk about this, but I'm very, very anti-lotto. I think Lotto is just one of the most cruel tricks that's played on working people. - I mean, so is gambling. - Yes, well, yeah, it's the exact same thing, yeah. - Have you ever been to a casino? Have you ever been to a casino? - Yes, I have. - I only win a couple of times and it's constantly the most sad place that I've ever been. - Oh, yeah. - Poor, like, you can like-- - It's horrible. - You can smell the defeat when you walk into those things. Like, it's, oh, God. - It's terrible. - Yeah, but, so, yeah, exactly. So, like, the drugs is the escape from the mind. Mia is just so out of it. I kind of got the feeling from watching the movie that her father tries really hard with her, but she's the one that, like, cannot handle being around him. And I think it's because he was the last person that saw her mother before she died. - And he's keeping something from her. - Yeah, he's also keeping and she's, it's more, it seems like she unconsciously knows that, but she doesn't want to deal with the reality. - Yes, you're right, you're right. The mother, so how the mother died was she took a bunch of sleeping pills and she, the father was sleeping in the living room and the next morning, the father got up and he went to go in the bathroom, but he couldn't open the door 'cause the mother's body was blocking it. He finally got the mother out and she was dead, but she had wood under her nails and blood on her nails. Like, she was scratching at the door. And the, so Mia says it wasn't suicide, but like you said, I think she kind of thinks it may have been, but doesn't want to deal with that. But again, that's an incongruity. Like, is she, why would she scratch? Or the, you know, people try to, people try to, you know, die of suicide all the time. And then in their last moments, try to undo it. That's just another one of the mysteries of this movie. Yeah, I got a question for you. This is some real film class shit. - Okay. - Mia, the movie is basically like, a lot of the color of the movie is very cool blues and stuff, but Mia is almost always in yellow and she stands out often in the frame. And Jade's house isn't exactly yellow, but it's a little bit warmer. What do you, first of all, did you notice the yellow and do you think, how do you read that? - I read that as Mia is just another way that Mia is so disconnected from everyone else. - Mm, okay. - And Jade's house was lit better than Mia's house. Mia's house is constantly blues. And I think that that was just in her mind again, which is like, that's a safe space for her. We're being at home where her mother killed herself is not. - Right, right, right. - So I think that, yeah. So I did notice that another reason why I really like this movie is because it's, they really using film techniques towards the best that they can. 'Cause this movie doesn't seem like it was a huge budget. Nothing that necessarily looked bad. I mean, it was just very simple. And the makeup was simple, but very effective. The ghost stuff was also, you know, there wasn't CGI, there wasn't any big, really, piece it. There was just some brightening, small moments. And I think they use that to its effect. So it really is showing, is telling of the filmmakers that they wanted to have something very affection, it's affectionately an award, I don't know. But like, effective is a word, yes. And very effective within their budget. And I think that was just-- - Yeah. I mean, you can't, these kids know what they're doing. They made a film and like, understand Mise-en-San and all that shit. Like they really, they know what they're doing. They made a very good film. - I also think it would hold up. Like, so I watched, like I said, this movie kind of reminded me of the city is, but comparing the two, there's a little CGI in city is, and that CGI feels, it's very small, but feels dated. So I feel like with this movie, this movie would probably still look good in 10 years or so. - Yeah. It's a little CGI in this movie. Do you know where it is? - No, do tell. - It's the dog, because there's a scene where Daniel is possessed and he falls over all horny, and he starts making out with the family dog. And I was happy to learn that they didn't actually do that with a dog. They had a dog puppet and then they used CGI to like, make it look better. - That's incredible, I didn't even know this though. - No dogs were made out with the making of this film. - That should have been at the end of the movie, but. - No dogs were French kests in the making of this film. - I'm really grateful, but like, - I know me too. - 'Cause I was real, I was like, oh, no. - Yeah. - And the slurping noises, oh my God. Great, good sound design in this movie too. - Oh, yeah, it's gross. A lot of this movie's gross. And the violence I think has a sort of realism to it that's like, gross. Oh, we didn't say, okay, so when we first meet Riley, Jade's little brother. He's what his stupid little friend that he calls, he thinks of me as like another big sister. So he calls me to pick him up and she does. And they're driving and they're singing Sia. Chandelier, like at the top of their lungs, like really having a fun time. And then they, remember this is Australia, they come upon a dying kangaroo in the road. And the brother, and it's really fucked up. And the brother's like, it's dying. Like we have to put it out of its misery. And Mia gets in the car like she's gonna run it over but then stops right in front of it and then just keeps going. And he's like, what are you doing? We have to help it. And she's like, someone else will come along. And it's a really interesting like with evoke death and it sort of echoes the ending of the film where it's like, can you put somebody out of their misery? If you, you know, it's really interesting. That was upsetting. (laughing) - It is, it's very upsetting. - And also, I feel like how would you, like the thing I would worry about is if I was in that position is like, what if I run it over and it doesn't die? And I just caused it more pain. - Right. And you fuck up your car. I mean, the way to do it is to get a big rock and smash its head if you were had to do that. - I'm glad you're thinking about those. I was like, what do you make sure you have a knife in your car? 'Cause let's throw, like what do you do? - Look, you live in Australia. - Where are you? - Documentary crocodile Dundee. He carries a big knife. - Oh my God. - So, okay, so the first party where they go and Riley, the mother, Riley and Jade's mother, Sue, Miranda Otto from Lord of the Rings, she's like, she's obviously a single mother. She's working constantly. She's a nurse. She's like, she kinda doesn't, she seems like a very good mom, but she also knows that she doesn't have a total handle on them, 'cause she just can't be around enough. So she'll say like, don't sneak out. And she's like, I'm not gonna sneak out. And she's like, I know you're gonna sneak out. And then they sneak out. And then they bring the little brother, the little brother like gilts the older sister into it. Or he, no, he doesn't. He like, black males are into it. He's like, I'll tell mom that you didn't pick me up when I called you. So it's like fine. So the little brother comes and they go to the party, Kayleigh and Josh's party. And Mia is the first one to do the hand thing. She's seen videos of it and she wants to try it. She does it. She holds the hand and says, talk to me. And she first sees like an old white man wearing a suit with this sort of foggy looking pale eyes. And she freaks out and she lets go of it. And then they're like, oh no, you have to keep holding it, keep holding it. So she holds it again, and she says it again. And now she sees like a woman who has like the same kind of eyes, but like her face looks a little deformed, but almost like she was drowned. Like her body was in water for a long time and her face is just sort of deforming. And she says, I let you in. And when they do, I let you in. It reminds me of in like Pulp Fiction when they show like someone doing heroin. I've never done heroin or been around anyone who did heroin. But like the way it's depicted in Pulp Fiction is like the minute it hits your veins, you're like blessed. Same thing like the wall, like the comfortably dumb scene. So like the minute she says, I let you in, you see Mia like her head jerks back and you hear like this sound and the camera kind of moves to and her eye, her pupils become totally black. And that's how you know they're possessed. And she's got this demon in her and she starts laughing maniacally. And then she does something weird that's never totally explained which is she points to an empty spot in the room where there's no one standing and she goes, there you are. And everyone looks and there's nothing there. And then she looks at Riley, the young boy and she's like, they like you. And then she says to someone else, or a door opens on its own. And then she says to someone else, he's behind you now. He'll split you pretty boy. All this to this boy. And then she's like run, run, run and all the lights are flickering. - Oh, that's frightening. - There's a rule that Hailey says, which is you can only be, you can only have them in you for 90 seconds. Somebody there has to time it because at 90 seconds you have to be pulled out of it. And the candle must be blown out, locking the door. And Mia says why and she says because they'll wanna stay. And let's see. Oh, so when she first goes in, she starts resisting when they try to take her out of it. And she actually goes beyond 90 seconds. Which is probably what dooms are in the, to begin with. - The thing I wondered about that is it's never explained how they know that. Like there had to be some. - A lot of it's not explained. It's, that's the sort of remind me of the movie. It follows where it's like there's something, it's like the hand is passed on. We know that they got the hand from Duckett who was the kid we saw in the first scene who stabs himself in the eye. But we don't know where Duckett got it from. Later on. - Yeah. - Joss is like, oh, it looks ceramic, but actually inside is the cut off hand of a medium. And that's why when you grab it, you can see the dead. And then Halley's like, I heard it was a cut off hand of a Satanist. And there's another hand out there somewhere. So we don't know where the hand comes from, who had the hands. We just know that it passes the person to person and kids use it like drugs in a party atmosphere. And we don't know why it works. Just that, just the simple concept of the hand is such a good, high concept to make a movie around. Even without interesting characters, but it has interesting characters. - Absolutely. Yeah, you're right. 'Cause then you wonder like if they broke the ceramic when there be a human hand in there. - Right, right. - It's also the way they hold the hand sometimes. It almost looks, it doesn't look like it's ceramic. It looks like you're holding something that, I guess, I don't know if I'd say flesh, but like you could squeeze it, like you can move the fingers a little bit. Like it's, if it was ceramic, I don't think it would move like that. So that's something else. Yeah, and I don't think we necessarily need to know that, but it's fascinating how like that is. - I looked a little graffiti all over it too. Like the kids like right on it. And so it's such an interesting thing because when you think about like being a teenager and playing with drugs and playing with sex, you're doing these very dangerous things in a very cavalier way. And that's maybe what it means to be someone that age. And that's definitely what these kids are doing. I mean, these kids are like, let's have a party where we let ourselves get possessed by spirits and what a high that is. And then we laugh and clap and go like, wow, that was a good one. And everyone's like, whoa, and it's like a party. But it's like, it's such a dangerous crazy thing. Like not only do they like, do they exist in a world where this exists, they're like totally cool with it. They just treat it like a drug. - Yeah, and you know what's interesting though, it's like they are recording it. So people are seeing it. We don't really see like the reactions necessarily or how it spreads. And also it seems like the adults are largely unaware that this is happening. - Oh yeah, for sure. - Yeah, and Duckett's brother, at one point, I can't remember if it was actually at the beginning or later on, but he talks about how Duckett is just wanting to be liked and people are pretending to be his friend. - Yeah. - Right? - 'Cause you had it. - 'Cause yeah, 'cause he had the hand and it, those were superficial or relationships really, but it, that need to belong doomed him. And I think that that also doomed Mia. - Yeah. - And it almost doomed Riley too. - Yeah. - And Josh says that Duckett gave him the hand because he said, "I no longer need it to see them." - Oh. - Which I think would mean even if you go, even if the 92nd rule is bullshit, I think the more times you do it, the probably more you're susceptible to seeing the other side or being tricked. 'Cause that's basically what happens, right? She's sort of like tricked or not. I don't know, it depends on what you think about what happens later. - I think she's tricked. I think, I think the ghosts, the more, I mean again, like I have to like kind of make certain assumptions, but the way the ghosts behave and their kind of desperate need to feel, which again, kind of like addiction, right? Like they're addicted to being alive. It's, they'll do anything to get their fix. So I think the longer that you're either in the hand or in that kind of nether world that they live in, the more power that they have over you. - Yes, yes. - So I think that's why the 92nd rule is in there is because then they like, oh, it's kind of, again, this is explored in Sidious where the concept is that a child has the ability to astro project, but the longer he's in the astro projection, the separation from his body, the more power the spirits have. So, and can manipulate and him. So that's kind of like, I'm seeing that similarity here too, where it seems like they get stronger too. - Once again, like goes with the drug aspect of it, right? The more you let a drug into your life, the more it has an effect on you. - And the more you need it. - Right, and the more you need it, right. - Which I think that that's also a thing that happens here. It's like Mia needs to do it again and again. - Right. One of the biggest scare, as you say, this movie doesn't have any jump scares, which is like, as I've said before, I'm not anti-jump scare necessarily. But if a movie is nothing but jump scares, I do feel like that's a little cheap. This movie, the closest thing that comes to a jump scare is Riley, 'cause he's a young kid. He's freaked out by what happened. A ghost got very creepy with him and called him pretty boy. He said, "We'll split you in two." And he's not feeling good about it. So he goes, "We want to sleep in a sister's room." She says, "No." She's like, "Get the fuck out, you're a grown, you're not a baby anymore." So he goes and sleeps on the couch with Mia. And then we see, he's asleep and he's holding his phone in his hand and he's got earbuds in. And we just see Mia's hand come in and take the phone and tuck him in and take the earbuds out. And then in the next instant, you see a creepy like dead rotted nail hands come that just like stroke Riley's cheek. And it's just so, I mean, you literally, if you were like looking it down at your popcorn, you'd miss it. It's such a quick thing, especially 'cause like you're misdirected of you like, 'cause you see her hand and then you see another hand. But again, it's a really good scare, but also it's like, what does that mean? Like is that her? Is always seeing something in hers, that's still her hand? Or is like the spirits are just all around and now they've got their eyes on Riley? It's all very, it's crazy, it's crazy. 'Cause it does seem like Riley's the prize. Like she's, Mia is the one who gets manipulated by the spirits, but it's like, it seems like what they want is Riley. - Which makes you wonder why is it his age? Because he's, I think like Mia and the other kids are anywhere between like 16 and 19. - Yeah. - Where Riley I think is like 14. Like he's really young. - Well, maybe like it is, again, it's like they, he's like, if they were truly gonna possess you, right? Like he's a younger body. He's, you know what I mean? He probably feels, to be inside him probably feels like, you know, your fresh body. But there's also something creepy and pedophilic about it. I mean, the spirits saying they'll split you, they'll split you in two pretty boy. - Oh god. - Pretty sexual. - That was so creepy. I mean, I mean, this movie is creepy. Like that's, that's really kind of the, the scares here more than anything. It's just like the creep factor. - Yeah. - And kind of that unsettling like, you know, as opposed to just scares and stuff. And it is creepy. - It's very creepy. - Yeah. - Oh. So one of the, like we mentioned earlier, the toe sucking was just, oh man, just thinking about it kind of makes me cringe. 'Cause I hate me, I'll be honest. Like I just, and also, so, okay. So the scene is Jade is, I guess at her house, Mia is with Jade's boyfriend. - It's after the next big part. - Yeah. - You want to, you want to, yeah, put a pin in it. - Oh yeah. - Go ahead. - Put a pin in it. The next thing that happens is the next night, Mia again, Mia is immediately hooked. Which happens with things like opioids. Then very next night, Mia is like, oh, let's, let's do it again. Let's do it again. Oh, we can do it at your house. And the mother's out working, so they do it in her house. And they invite Haley and Josh over. It's Riley, his little friend. It's Jade's boyfriend, Daniel, who's this like Christian kid. Although he might be, he might be asexual. He might be, he might be gay. I'm not sure. There's some weirdness about that. Because when, when some, I forget who, when somebody's possessed. 'Cause the possessed ghosts seem to be able to like, tell the truth about what they're looking at. And it freaks people out. Whoever it is that's possessed looks at Daniel. No, it looks at Jade and says about Daniel. He hates when you touch him. You make him soft. And that's really actually leads to, right after that's the biggest laugh in the movie, where Haley goes, "Wow, this spirit's a cunt." (laughing) This is where Daniel decides to try it. And Daniel has this gets all horny and fucking makes out with the dog. And then he leaves and Haley leaves with him. And the Riley's like, "I really wanna try, "I really wanna try." And Jade's like, "No, you're too young." But then Jade leaves. And then he's like, "Come on Mia, let me try." Well, just for 60 seconds. So he does, but he immediately starts talking to Mia like he's her mother. He's like, "I love you, me, I'm so sorry. "I left you, I never would leave you. "I never meant to hurt you. "I didn't do it on purpose." And Mia's like, "Oh my God, this is my mother." And Haley's like, "Okay, time's almost up. "We gotta fucking bring him out of this." And she's like, "No, I gotta keep talking to my mother." And then in a very disturbing scene, Riley smashes his face into the table in front of him and he's bleeding. And everyone's like, "Oh shit." And then the chair on its own flies into a wall and then there's another table there and he starts just continuously banging his fucking head, like smashing his head in. He grabs at his own eye, like digging his own eye out. And you see his eye in between his fingers, like he's squeezing his eye, it's so fucked up. And then Haley runs in right as he's about to like probably smash himself and kill himself and she puts her hand there and he breaks her hand with his head. - It was Jane, right? - Yeah, and now they're fucked because now that she has to call her mom and say, "Yeah, I had a party and yeah, he's really fucked up. "He's really in bad shape." And while that, everyone's freaking out about that and like, "Oh my God, do we call the cops?" Whatever, Mia's all fucked up 'cause she's like, "Oh my God, I saw my mom." And then she walks out into the kitchen and she sees there's a door in the kitchen with like frosted glass and she sees a figure beyond it. It looks like her mother. This is when she starts to see her mother outside in the world. Oh, I didn't say there is a fun montage here before things get heavy where you just see them all doing it. Like over and over again, it's just like a, it's like a drug montage, it's just like, it's music is playing and they cut to like the cameras moving and they cut to them all being possessed in all these different weird ways. Mia's possessed at one point, she's singing in French and everyone's having a great time. And then it fucks himself up and so then he goes to the, what do you call it? The hospital, his mother, he's really fucked up. He's in the hospital and Jade is with the mother in hospital and with Riley. And then Mia, Daniel's like, "I don't know what to do. Like I told my dad, I was sleeping over my cousin's house. David, the cops didn't call my parents because I'm over 18." All the rest of their parents all heard about it and they all think it was drugs. They all like, "What did you give him? You gave him drugs." The mother who's like her surrogate mother is like, you know, "I don't want to see you again." She like picks Mia out of the hospital. She's like, "Don't come back here again. I'll call the cops." It's like really heartbreaking. And so Daniel's like, "I can't go home." So Mia's like, "Come to my house." And he's like, "I don't know. We used to date. It might be weird." And she's like, "Come on, I don't want to be alone." So they go over to his house. She's very, this is a moment where I feel like I don't like her 'cause she's being very flirty with him. They're like, she's like, "Do you still have small hands?" And they like, put their hands together to like see whose hand is bigger, but they're just like touching hands. And then they go to sleep. And then you were talking about this scene. That's stuck with her. - Well, one thing I was wondering about that is like, was he uncomfortable because he's dating her best friend? Or was he uncomfortable because he has almost, you know, like possibly asexual feelings? Like, that's what I was wondering. It's like, it's something that's not totally explored. And but I could see why you didn't like her in that moment. That's why I really enjoy the character is like she's so flawed. And sometimes I can't tell if she actually likes Daniel or that she is almost like, she's looking for any kind of distraction in her life. Yeah, she's super needy. And it kind of reminds me of people that I've known in the past who just have indulged in self-destructive behavior. Like it's not about having the affair or that person. So much is like, you just need something else to focus on. - Yeah. - Yes. - So probably, yeah. - Yeah, so any of those things. So yeah, so they're sleeping over and they're sleeping, interesting head to foot. Which honestly, I think that's Daniel's idea. - Probably. - Yeah. Just like, let's make this as least sexual as possible. And Mia wakes up in the middle, like she hears a sound. She wakes up in the middle of the night and she sees a ghost sucking on Daniel's foot. - Yes. - And so she's watching this happen and it's so harrowing and awful. And the way it's lit is like, I don't know, it just. - It reminds me a little bit of hereditary because we see the camera pans across her dark bedroom and this spirit is just standing in the corner. And you kind of don't even clock it at first. You're like, oh, you think it's like a coat or something. And then it starts to crawl and you're like, oh shit, that's a fucking spirit there. And then it-- - That's what makes it worse. - Yes. - It's not moving that fast. - It's crawling. - Also, why is it crawling? Like, again, it doesn't need to be answered but the way the spirit's move is so unsettling. - Yes. - And that's what makes it really effective. And it's something as simple as an actor crawling on the floor. Was she naked, I can't-- - She's wearing her like a nightie. - That's even creepier, like-- - Right, 'cause it's like, did she die in that? Her face looks like bludgeoned. Like, was she killed in a domestic abuse situation? - Yeah, that's more questions. But like, she starts sucking on Daniel's foot and Mia's just watching this happen, like, horrified. And it's really disgusting and just-- - But then Daniel wakes up and we see it's Mia sucking on his toes. She was like, in her, she was dreaming, I guess, or something. And he's like, what the fuck are you doing? - So, or like an out-of-body experience. - Yes, yeah. - Or something like that. But it was so indulgent, like, this foot sucking. And it was just-- - Yeah. - Oh, my God. And it's so freaky and uncomfortable. - He storms out and she's like, she starts to really freak out. She starts smacking herself and like, hurting herself. And she's like, really having a breakdown. And then she decides to use the hand alone. And I have to tell you, this is another drug thing. Like, like, let's say, like, I-- By the way, I'm not like a huge drug person. Like, when I did, I just smoked weed and sometimes took pills. I never did heroin, I never did coke, I never did any of that stuff. 'Cause I knew I'd love it, so I didn't do it. So-- - Smart. - But the thing is like, even with drinking, like, when you wanna do it so much, you decide to do it alone. That's usually a bad sign that you're becoming dependent. And she's like, she wants to do it alone. She says she wants to do it to see her mother. Or I should say, something very interesting happens that we forgot, which is, she says to Daniel, that was my mother. And he's like, ah, how do you know he was her mother? And she's like, well, she called me me, that's what was my mother's nickname for me. And then Daniel's like, I think when they're inside of us, they could read on memories. Which is probably true, right? That makes some sense. - Right, 'cause they're possessing the body and the minds of her or the body. So-- - Right, right. Maybe they look for weakness. Maybe they prey on people like her who are grieving. - I think that that makes a lot-- - That's what drug dealers do. - That makes sense. - By the way, I'm just reading it this way for fun. I'm not somebody who likes to just like, come up with a reading of it and go, it's about drugs. Like, I don't think doing it that way is useful. It could be about a lot of other things. It's just the one that's sort of stuck in my mind at the moment. - I think it's good to read. I think it's very valid. - Yeah, yeah. Riley's all fucked up. Like it's, you really see this in a horror movie. Like, them in the hospital convalescing. Like, he's like, his face has like stitches. He just looks like his skull was fractured. His eye is all fucked. He's got a patch on his eye. It's just like, oh my God, this kid is really in bad shape. - It's fascinating that that's the scene where he was like doing that self harm with the spirits in him. It felt like it was really fast. Like, he wasn't, it felt like it was only like a minute of him doing that stuff to himself. And then like the result of that is probably weeks and weeks of recovery. And you're right, that's not really shown in horror movies. And that was interesting. It's also, does he, whenever he is conscious, he keeps trying to hurt himself? - Yes, it's fucked up. - It's frightening. So you're mentioning that Miranda Otto plays his mom and Jade Mom from Lord of the Rings. I remember her from that Netflix Sabrina show. She was Anselta. - Oh, yeah. - And she was very different in that movie. So it's kind of a show. So it's kind of interesting to make those comparisons. She's still like a little spooky. Like, I feel like she's something about her. - Yeah, she's great. I like her a lot. She's really good. She's great as the mom here. She does this really funny thing where she's like, you having a party tonight? And they're like, no, we're not. And the boyfriend's at the door. So she opens the door and she's like, hey, what time is the party tonight? And he's like, what party? I don't know what you're saying. And she's like, no, that's what's cool. I know about it. Just what time is it supposed to start? And he's like, I don't know what party you're talking about. And she's like, okay, all right, you're good. So she's clever. She knows what's going on next. Oh, so she does it alone and she sees her mother or a spirit that looks like her mother. And it says like, I love you. I miss you. I didn't die. I didn't kill myself. I didn't do it on purpose. It was a mistake. I would never leave you. And this is like, this is what Mia wants to believe. So she's like, oh my God, this is it. And I believe this spirit, the spirit's got to be my mother. - But also like, can I just say like the makeup, the actor that you, that you just portrayed, Mia's mother, she has a very angular face. So like the makeup kind of makes it enhances that angular kind of lug, like the sharp nose and the kind of jawline and the contacts that they use. Like all the ghosts have that kind of milky white. It was frightening. Like it was so simple, but it was really attractive. - Which again, makes her look like she drowned. - Yeah. - And blood under her and blood and wood under her nails. - It was spooky, like very effective. - So what happens next? We don't have to go to every single thing, long story short, right? Jade and Mia have a fight. She's like, I wish you didn't force yourself into my family. It's pretty fucked up. Mia says she's seeing stuff without the hand and everyone's like, oh, that's not good. They think maybe Mia's like, hey, did we, when Daniel was, not Daniel, when Riley was doing it, when he was fucking his head up, did anyone blow the candle out? And everyone's like, we don't remember. And she's like, well, maybe that's it. Maybe the door's open. Maybe we go into his hospital, we do it again. And then we blow the candle. We close the door. And so they do that. She, they sneak the hospital with the hand. Jade's with, it's Jade and Mia. And she, she, she holds the hand in, but she says like, talk to him or something like that. And then you see like a little dead girl sitting on his bed and this little girl's like, I know where he is, I can show you. Like you see a vision of him like, he's naked and there's a bunch of old creepy naked people like writhing and like clawing at his body. Like it looks, it looks very like Hieronymus Bosch kind of hell going on. And that freaks Mia out. Mia's like, oh my God, he's, he's in eternal pain. He's suffering. And she, as the movie goes on, Mia is just more and more detached from reality. Mia goes home and her dad's like, listen, I gotta tell you something. But Mia's so fucked up at this point. You don't know if she's dreaming or this is crazy. Is this really her dad or not? The dad's like, listen, your mom left a note and I never showed it to you 'cause I didn't think you could handle it, but you're right, I, you deserve to see it. And it's just, it's a suicide note. It's, you know, I love you both. Like today I woke up and I was happy for the first time 'cause I knew I was gonna end it. I hope you both have longed in lives. And Mia, like that's a lie, that's not true. She told me she didn't do it. And the folks like, who, what? What do you mean she told you? She runs into her room and the Mia's mother is there. And she's like, don't believe him. That's not your father. Which is interesting 'cause it reminds me of that like short story of like the little kid. There's, the mother comes in to tuck our kid in and the little kid is like, mommy, I'm scared. There's a monster under my bed. And the mother's like, you want me to look? And she's like, yeah. And then she looks under the bed and it's the little kid. And he goes, mom, come down here and hide. There's a monster up there. Have you ever heard that one? - No. - It's like a short story slash riddle kind of like thing. And it's kind of like that 'cause you're like, shit, who's telling the truth? And you hear the father slamming at her door and you're like, well, he's getting very aggressive. But then you see a shot of the father sitting back on the couch and you're like, oh shit, there is a fake father somewhere. And then the fake father comes in and he looks dead and he's coming near or fighting. And then the real father comes in to try to stop her and she goes to stab the fake spirit father in the neck with a scissors and she does it to her real father. And then she's like, ah fuck. And then she then she like gets in her head like she has to kill Riley. She has to put like Riley out of his misery. - Yeah, 'cause that's what her mom is, ghost mom is saying is like you have to save him by killing him. - Right, right, right. And then she tricks Jay. She's like, Jay, I need you to come over to my house. So Jay goes over to her house. So while Jay is out of the hospital, she sneaks in. And then she sees the mother and the mother, like she has a really nice woman with mother's like, I'm so sorry for what I said to you. You really are like family. You know, I thought you gave him drugs. But the toxicology report said that there was no drugs in the system. I just, I couldn't accept that he had a mental breakdown and I blamed it on you and I love you. And it's like, at that point as an audience member, you're like, oh man, like things are turning better. Like just get the fuck out of there. At some point they talk to Duckett's brother and he says something, he goes, don't worry your brother's gonna be fine. They can't stand you long. Eventually they'll just leave on their own. Which is, if that's true, that's interesting too because that's not what Mia thinks is happening. - No, it's not how she's operating. - Jade goes to Mia's house, finds the dad. He's not dead, but he's very fucked up. She, Mia steals Riley from the hospital. And she sees Riley is like a gross old man who's like, eh, like he looks old like burnt and like he looks like Deadpool, but older. And when Jade comes back and sees, she sees Mia with Riley in a wheelchair and she's like going up a hill with him. And she's gonna like throw him. It looks like she's gonna throw him into traffic. And then the mother, the mother goes, puts her hand on Mia's shoulder and she says something, she says something that I think tips Mia off. What would she say? Let's see. Oh, she says, I can protect him. We'll have him forever. Which I think makes Mia realize like, oh no, this isn't really my mother. But it's also like echoing the, it's echoing the kangaroo moment. And then we see inside of a car on the highway and something hits the car, but it's not dead. It's not Riley, it's Mia. Mia throws herself into traffic. And then she gets up and moves around. And then suddenly like she stays in the same place but the background changes and she's in the hospital. And she sees Riley's up and doing fine. Everybody looks good. She sees her dad leaving the hospital and she starts chasing him. And like this is such a cool way to use something practical in a sort of supernatural way is just the lights of the hospital start going off one by one. So it's like shutting out and then eventually the father, she can't reach the father and then his old darkness. - She also sees Riley leave the hospital. - Yes. - So that's when you kind of realize like, before we saw him in a wheelchair barely moving. So it's like, that's also an indication that time has moved forward. - Right. So good, is the time moving forward? Is it a lie? Is it the truth? Like I want to think it's the truth, it's fucked up. And then she's in total darkness and she sees like a little ball of light and she walks up to it and she puts her hand out and then she's holding hands with some kid in a party and he says, I let you in. And then she just, before she could do anything it cuts and that's the end. So she is one of the, she's dead. She's one of the spirits now. And someone using the hand reached out to her. - It was also, I was watching the movie with subtitles just 'cause that's my default usually. And I think they were, they weren't speaking, they talked or I let you in was in English. But everything else was, I think in Greek or at least that's what the translation told me. - So it's a different part of the world, yeah. - It's a different part of the world. It also is at the same, it looks like the same hand. - Well, I went back and checked 'cause I was like, in the, throughout the movie, it's a left hand. So I was like, is it a left hand still? And it was because I wanna see if it were a right hand 'cause then it would be, the thing Hailey said would be true if there is another hand out there. It was a left hand. Did you, did you see that ending coming? Did you see it going in that tragic way? - I can't say exactly that I did but I had a feeling that things wouldn't work out for Mia. - Okay. - Because I think like, I don't know if that makes sense but it kind of like, I had a feeling just 'cause of the way the choices that she made and how easily she was manipulated up until the last few minutes of the movie. It kind of seemed like she's going down this dark path and there's no way out. - It's sad, really. - It's a bubble. - It really is. - Yeah, what did you see it coming? - I didn't. Like, I mean, horror movies always can have a downer ending that it's one of the only genres that's common but I guess I did think she'd get out of it somehow. But once she threw herself at the traffic, I knew she was dead. When she got back up, there was no part of me that was like, oh, she's okay. Like, I mainly knew she's dead there, her spirit is getting back up. - Yeah, it is exciting. - I died on that road, like the raccoon. - The kangaroo. - Kangaroo, sorry, raccoon. - Yes, raccoon. - Yes, raccoon. - Racco cooney. - Yeah, I guess, I would say probably kangaroos are the muscular equivalent of raccoons in North America. - Sure, sure. So let's look at some of these mysterious things. First of all, so are you sure that it's not me as mother? - Yes. - Okay. The reason why is because it's a little too eager to push her to a certain direction. - Do you think that it's ever her mother? Like, maybe it's at one moment it is, and then it isn't, or it's never her mother. - I think it's never her mother. I mean, we don't, the only thing we know about me as mother is that she died and she wanted to die. Like, that's it. And also it seemed like her marriage wasn't that great 'cause why would the husband be sleeping on the couch, and all those things? - Right, right, right. - Right, so I don't think it was her mother. It makes me wonder if her mother is in the spirit world, or where they are, or is there another life? Because it just seems very eager and keeps pushing for her to kill Riley. And I feel like a parent wouldn't do that. - Okay, I probably agree with you, but something that I was thinking about was, what if it is, and this is a sort of dark thought, but when you die and you enter the spirit realm, you just become evil. - Mm. - Because the spirits in this, like there's no hetero hell, even like they call them spirits, but they don't look like ghosts in any way that we've seen ghosts. Like, there's something very loathsome about these spirits. And I thought like, maybe it is the mother, and the mother's just, you know, like the dead just want more company. I mean, that's just a thought. You're probably right. But then you think like, yeah, why did she, why did she scratch at the door? But again, that's something normal that happens. Say none of it's ever like clean. It's never like cut and dry. Another little moment that I didn't notice the first time I saw it, and I don't know if you noticed it, when Riley does it with a hand, you know, there's the first step where you say, talk to me, and then you can see spirits, and then the next step you say, I let you in and then you're possessed. We don't see what he sees, but when he says, talk to me, you see his like, his eyebrows sort of crinkle, and he goes, what the fuck? And it seemed to me, and I watched it back, it seemed to me that he was recognizing whatever he was seeing. Did you notice that? - I didn't actually, that was interesting. - Go back and look at it. It could be just one of these interesting incogruities that's just there to be interesting. Or, but I mean, it's interesting that you don't see who he's seeing, right? He's a major character in this movie, and typically you see who they see. And just like, he doesn't seem scared. He's like, he's like, he's like more quizzical about it. It's interesting. Maybe it wasn't, and that made me think maybe that was the mother, maybe he recognizes me as mother. Or who knows what? Or any, who knows? - They, yeah, 'cause all you know is that their mother is a single parent, she makes a, a part of her dialogue later on when Riley's in the hospital was like, I have to contact your father or something like that. - No, I don't think he saw his own mother. I think he saw me as mother. - No, no, what I'm saying is like, at first I wasn't sure if their dad was dead, or they were just a force. So, I think that they're just a force. So it's like, you're wondering who he could have saw. It could have been me as mother. - Right, right. - It could have been, I mean, honestly, it could have been any relative that they had that died. - The Daniel's right, that they just, they mine your memory. It could be anything that he would recognize. - You're also, because we only get these few instances of seeing like the kinds of ghosts that this activity attracts, you don't really know if the whole, if every spirit or ghost verb is like that, or these are people that had unfinished business. 'Cause it's generally what, like kind of, I mean, every media type is different. - Typically that's what ghosts are depicted as, right? It's having some sort of, yeah. - But then, I mean, if we think of it in that way, then that means the ghosts that are showing up are the ones that are the most desperate, and that's why they lie and manipulate, and try to take you over. So then like, maybe the more satisfied spirits aren't doing that kind of stuff, like who knows. - Right, right, right. Like, if you're, like, the way Mia looks at the end is she's in complete darkness and lost. And she just walks towards the one little light that she could see, which is a very lonely way of thinking about the afterlife. - Oh, it's horrible. It really, it didn't remind me of being, like, in the deep ocean when you see those, like... - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - When you see footage and you can't see anything, unless it's really close to you, and you have some sort of light, or like one of those lantern, you know, those lantern fish that have that light on there. - Yes, yeah, yeah. - It's terrifying. Oh man, I guess the moral of the story here is don't die. That's right. You heard it here, kids. - Don't die, ever. (laughs) - So you've been comparing this to "Unsidious." Do you think this is better than "Unsidious" or not on par with it or what? - I think in some ways it's definitely better than "Unsidious" and in other ways it's on par. Like, I feel like this would be a great movie night, would be to watch some of these movies, like "Back to Back." - Yeah. - I think that'd be fun. I definitely like the characters a little better in "Talk to Me." And "Talk to Me" also raises more questions. - Yeah. - Though in "Unsidious" they have some interesting, the ghost stuff is the most interesting, and the afterlife is the most interesting in that movie. And I would say in this way, this movie too, like the unanswered questions of that afterlife is so fascinating. Would you recommend this movie? - I would absolutely recommend it. I think this is a really good horror movie. I think it's a really good movie. If you're somebody who just from a stimulation point of view doesn't like jump scares, you'll be fine with this. There's no jump scares. And it's like, yeah, it's a thinker. It's thoughtful without being pretentious in any way. You know, I mean, you could just watch it as a romp, but if you look at it closely, there are questions to be asked. You know what fucks me up about "Unsidious"? There's one of the spirits is this little boy. And I didn't notice it when I saw it, but then I saw like a video on YouTube where they were like, look, if you see in all these scenes, little boys just standing there in the background. And it's just thinking about it now gives me a chill. The idea of like a ghost just standing there in the background. That's the same shit you saw in like "Haunting of Hell" house. - Yes. - Like a ghost is, just tell me like, oh, the thing that you already watched, well, guess what? There was a ghost in the background that you weren't looking at. That freaks me out more than anything. - Or some of the stat, I'm actually re-watching that series this week. - Oh, yeah. - It's so, it's still so good. And the statues are also some of them change places. - Really? - At least once it looks like the statue moves from one cut to another. And again, like it's something else that's never like a dress. It's terrifying. - It's better in "Hell House" because when they did "Blime Manor", there's one scene where they went too far where literally there's just a ghost standing basically right there. And it's like, we all see this ghost, right? Like nobody doesn't see this ghost wearing a fucking black plague mask. - Oh, right, right? - Yeah. - Yeah, that "Blime Manor" was a bit of a disappointment, but they did have some really good scares in it. - Did you see "Midnight Mass"? - Yeah, I watched the last thing. - I haven't seen that. Was that good? - It starts off very slow. Like the first two episodes are really slow and they're just kind of easing into it. But I enjoyed it. Like the whole, the series is a whole, I think was interesting. And it's different than his other work. - You know, they're giving him the exorcist franchise. What are you thinking of that? (laughing) - Well, I haven't caught up with that franchise at all, but I mean-- - It's mostly not good. - So he, I don't think he can do any worse. - He certainly can't do any worse than what the last one was, for sure. - What was the last one? - It was by David Gordon-Green who did the new Halloween movies. It was actually just "The Believer". - Okay. - It was, it was not very good. - I have not caught up with Halloween either because I feel like at this point, Jamie Lee Curtis has been like, what, her late 70s? - Yeah. - Wouldn't you have died by now? Or she's died multiple times in the series. - Yeah. - I, I know, I just, it gets kind of tired, but-- - I saw the first one and really disliked it and everyone else seemed to like it. And I was like, I don't know guys, I don't like it. But then two and three came out of "Halloween Kills" and "Halloween Ends" and it seemed like more people were like this, these movies aren't good at all. Especially "Halloween Ends". So I was like, I haven't even bothered looking at them. - I, I understand why studios keep churning out like sequels and prequels and remakes. I get it 'cause you already have that, you already have the rights to it. It's not hard. It's also like leaning on a name. But I feel like it's, we've done it already. We, there's so much we learned about Michael's life. Like how much more do we need? - I know. - Same thing goes for like Jason, a lot, I love it Freddy Krueger, like they're great. But can we try something new? Like I think "Talk to Me" is refreshing in that. It's like, it's a new type before, I don't mean it. - Yeah, I'll see, yeah. - New monster, new types of horror. I'll take a interesting new failure over a mediocre sequel or reboot or whatever. - I don't know if they're gonna make a sequel to this movie, but I would accept it. It probably wouldn't be that good. But if you just do more like with the hands, just do more hand stuff, although here's what I don't want. I don't want "Talk to Me" the prequel where it's like the life of the person whose hand it is. Like that shit I don't need. But just do more of like kids hanging out with the hands. That's what I realized. - I, yeah, I think that's more interesting. Yeah, another thing that I don't like that I feel like has been a trend in the last like decade or two of movies is like the real story behind the story you thought you knew. And I'm like, I don't care. Can we just- - Yeah, I know, I don't know any- - I don't need a tragic backstory. I guess it's like for lack of better examples like the Joker treatment. Like I don't care about the Joker's life. - Yeah. - He's a good villain like in comic books or movies because you don't know where he comes from and he doesn't know and he doesn't care. It's just about what he's doing in that moment. And just having a tragic backstory was like, okay, sure, but he killed a lot of people. So it doesn't, what does that mean? That traumatized people traumatized other people? Like what are you trying to say here? (laughing) - No, yeah. - It's the, it's boring. - Well, Nadia, this has been a great episode. I enjoy talking to you about horror. Next week, we're gonna talk about another horror movie and you're gonna be back for our Halloween festivities as well. - I am really excited for that. - All right, we end every episode by saying- - No, bye-bye. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (birds chirping)