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WHY ARE WE BULLISH? Michael Sullivan, The Coin Dad ep431

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Duration:: 1h 33m
Broadcast on:: 02 Aug 2024
Audio Format:: aac

[MUSIC] [MUSIC] >> Yo, what is going on, everybody? Welcome to the show, another Friday, another episode of Why Are We Bullish? I'm on the road driving through BC right now. I'm gonna go visit some friends, I've gotta meet up, a Bitcoin meetup in Vancouver, happening on the 11th, very excited to do it. But we gotta keep doing the show live, of course. I've got some awesome guests waiting in the wings to come in. So we will see them in just a second. Now of course this is live, anything can happen. So I defer to my friend Bill here. [MUSIC] >> We'll do it live, do it live, I'll write it and we'll do it live. [MUSIC] >> Now if you haven't already, please do like, subscribe, share, all those things, they help a ton getting this content in front of more eyeballs. I am Ben with the BTC Sessions, this is your daily session. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] >> Now before we bring in our guests, we're gonna take a quick look at where we are in the market right now. I'm pulling up timechaincalendar.com and simultaneously, I'll pull up that live chat. That'll be over on the right hand side for all the seed from here on in, for better or worse. And over on timechaincalendar.com, we're sitting at $62,135 per coin. A single US dollar, we'll snag you 1,609 SATs, snap them up while you can. In terms of fees, next block eight SATs per byte and Bitcoin mined at 19.73 million. That is 93.97% of the total supply. We are going to do a quick shout out to our sponsors and then we will dive right in. We'll be right back. >> A mission to enable independence by being one of the easiest and quickest ways to purchase Bitcoin in Canada and the US. The best part about it, every buy goes directly into your own self custody, they never hold your coins. You can add a Bitcoin address as part of onboarding, there's a transparent 1% spread, no hidden fees, no withdrawal fees, plus they have KYC free sells and bill payments on their website. They're also a publicly traded company under the ticker BTCW on the TSXV. Check them out over at Bitcoinwell.com, check out my full tutorial on how to use them and you can check out the links in the show notes down below and sign up today. >> As some of the best hardware on the market today to secure your Bitcoin, the cold card queue is an absolute powerhouse and is my daily driver. On top of this, they have plenty of other goodies including the Mark 4, the tap signer open dimes, the block clock and much more. If you head over to their website, make sure you use code BTCSessions at checkout to get a nice discount. Links are in the show notes down below. >> All right, we are back in and we're going to bring in our guests right now. I want to welcome to the stage the coin dad and Michael Sullivan. Gentlemen, thank you for being here, I appreciate you joining me on a Friday to get bullish and let's give ourselves some quick. We're going to give ourselves some quick introduction so coin dad, I'll toss it to you, let people know who you are and what you do. >> All right, I appreciate you having me on. First off, this is my first live stream. So glad to be on your show doing that. >> You'll nail it, I promise. >> My name is the coin dad, I'm with the Bitcoin Mining Museum. We're based out of North Carolina, we're mostly mobile and we just go to conferences and events that book us, but I've been basically growing the mining museum for the last four years after I found or figured out that there's nobody preserving the history of Bitcoin mining machines. So I was like, I already have some in my collection, I might as well just be the first one to do so. And here I am with a five man team and 125 machines in my collection and it just keeps growing every month. >> That's awesome. >> I've seen the, I saw a portion of what you've got going on in Miami last year and it was incredible. I really, I need to get down and see the whole thing, I think. >> Yeah, that was half of it, the one that you've seen. >> Yeah. >> Mining just grew up just about a month ago when we did mining disrupt, that's the biggest one I've done so far, that was the whole shebang. >> I think I might be at that one next year actually. >> Have you ever been in the mining historic conference at all yet? >> I've not, I've not, they reached out so I might swing down for it next time. >> Okay, maybe we can get on stage and do a little talk on their panel. >> That'd be pretty awesome, I'd enjoy it. Well, awesome, I'm glad that you're here and I'm excited to hear about why you're bullish this week and a little bit here. But before we do, I'll toss it down to Michael. Michael, welcome to the show. Can you give yourself an introduction as well for anybody who might be unfamiliar? That's up everybody, super pumped to be here, a long time viewer of the show. My name is Michael Sullivan, I'm a software engineer and a novelist. Most people that follow me on Twitter know me as the Bitcoin fiction guy, I've been avidly working on a book for the last couple years and I'm just so pumped to get it out there for all of you. But yeah, I got about a million things to be bullish today and I'm very excited about it. >> Awesome, well I'm glad to hear and we're going to dive right in. So for anybody watching that may be unfamiliar, this is why are we bullish, really simple premise to the show. Each one of us has come with a reason for being bullish and the flow of the show is really simple. Whatever that reason is, somebody's going to drop their reason, discuss whatever is exciting them in and around Bitcoin, so that's their chance to rant. As soon as they're done that, number two, altogether we're going to riff on that reason together, comments, questions, whatever rabbit holes we decide to go down. And then number three, when we put a bull on that topic, we're going to rotate to the next person. So really simple reason, riff, rotate all the way through until everybody has had a turn. So with that, I'm going to dive in, I'm going to get started with my reason for being bullish. And this centers around an application that I've been using, just a phone app that I've been using quite a bit, the past little while, it's relatively new. And my wife is actually using it as well, but they just dropped an update that I think is really, really cool. So first off, and maybe I'll share my screen here because I want to show what the app is, if anybody hasn't heard of it before, and then dive into what they add. So I'll grab this up here. So for phone wallets, I really, really enjoy Aqua Wallet. And Aqua Wallet basically, it gives you a couple of different things. It allows you, of course, to use regular on-chain Bitcoin transactions. Great. You can do that all day long, all you like, you know, it's self custodial, you have your seed phrase, all of that, fantastic. But then it segregates the on-chain from lightning and liquid as kind of like a spending wallet. And both of those are interoperable, meaning that you can send and receive lightning transactions, you can also send and receive liquid Bitcoin transactions. And they're both interoperable. In the background, there's just like a, there's something called bolts that will automatically swap to and from the liquid network, regardless of if you're accepting a lightning transaction or not. It just does it all in the background for you. Now, the interesting thing is you can also swap between on-chain Bitcoin and your spending wallet. So you can say, "Oh, I'd like to, you know, I want this for a day-to-day use and I want the lower fees and quicker transactions, I'll just swap from my on-chain to my spending wallet." And that'll trigger an on-chain kind of, or a peg into the liquid network. And so that'll sit in a separate balance. The one thing that wasn't there is if you were receiving, like say you had Bitcoin in cold storage and you wanted it to be spendable in a lightning or liquid wallet like this. What you had to do before is you had to send on-chain Bitcoin to your Aqua wallet. And then in, so that would be one on-chain transaction. And then once it was there and confirmed, you then had to hit the swap button and that would do another on-chain transaction to swap between on-chain and liquid. And so in a high fee environment, that was a little bit of a pain in the butt and it could be expensive. And so with the latest update, they've added automatic peggins. And what that means is if you're here in your Aqua wallet and you go down to settings in the bottom right, there's an advanced setting called direct pegging. And when you do that, if you hit receive and then under the liquid receive, there's a little button that says direct pegging, it'll give you a regular Bitcoin address. And as soon as that regular Bitcoin address receives an on-chain transaction, it will automatically peg into the liquid network and give you liquid Bitcoin, meaning that if you have money in cold storage and you want it to be spendable for lightning transactions, it's a single transaction to get it to swap. If you're receiving a transaction from somebody and you would prefer that to be in the form of lightning and liquid being able to spend easily, normally, again, you'd have to receive the on-chain Bitcoin and then swap it afterwards. With this, you can just say send Bitcoin to this address, it will automatically swap into the form that you would like. And so the reason I'm bullish on this is because we're starting to see a change in how wallets work. There used to be an individual tool for every single job. And now what we're starting to see is kind of these all-in-one I have on-chain, I have lightning, I have liquid, and a lot of the complexity is beginning, not fully, but is beginning to be pushed to the background. To the point where I think eventually what we see is when you create a new wallet, somebody will be asked a couple of questions about their habits. Oh, is this mainly for long-term savings? Do you do large transactions typically? Or do you want a portion to usually go to long-term savings versus spending? With a few simple, like laymen questions, the wallet will begin to intuit what your habits are and then act in the background the way that would best reflect what you're trying to do. What somebody having to know, oh, I need to move the funds here, then I need to use another tool to swap it to this network for cheaper transactions, and then I need to do this. I think eventually it's just I've got a wallet and it keeps it as secure or as accessible as I need for what I'm doing without having to think. And I'm really happy to see that because as somebody who teaches people for a living, it can be a little tough when I'm like, oh, yeah, so there's a regular Bitcoin transaction. Sometimes those are expensive and maybe use those more for long-term savings. But if you want to spend, then we're going to go over to the Bolt's website and then you're going to get a totally different wallet that uses liquid or lightning and then you're going to do a swap and you've got to grab an address from this one and send good luck explaining that to a brand new person. But if you just say, oh, if you're receiving some money and you want to have it easily spendable, just receive it into your spending wallet, that's an easy direction to tell somebody to do. Go to your spending wallet and receive and you're good. I think that's where the flow needs to go and I'm very happy to see these things. And while I recognize this isn't yet that, it's another step in that direction where the back end is getting sorted out to get to that point. So I guess that's kind of in a nutshell, my reason for being bullish. And so in opening up to you guys, I'm curious in general, your habits with wallets and how are you using Bitcoin at the current time and what kind of tools do you have to use to accomplish that? And are you a day to day user like, are you doing those small transactions or are you still like an on chain kind of purist or where are you guys at whoever wants to dive in first? So I'm a mix. My first experience with Lightning Network was really when I went to El Salvador. I've been there twice now and I've always been on chain in the US because I don't use it that much, maybe there's a moment where I run into a couple of years ago, a guy owned a gravel company and he had two dump truckloads of gravel to bring to my property and I found out he's in the Bitcoin and he was willing to accept Bitcoin as payment for it. So I did an on chain transaction, took about 20 minutes while the truck was getting dumped in my property. And that was kind of cool, but then I got to El Salvador and I realized, okay, I paid my taxi, I paid my restaurant, I got some drinks at the beach, like everything was pretty much I had like, I think 10 or 12 Lightning Network transactions in the three or four days that I was there. So I ended up going from hot wallet to wallet to Satoshi before the US problem and used that there, but then I ran out and the problem that I had is that my hot wallet was empty and the rest was in cold storage, but my cold storage is back in the US, I don't have access to it. So what you just mentioned with this aqua, or are you basically saying that I could connect that to actual cold storage that's locked away that I can use while I'm at home? So what you could do is, so aqua wallet right now, they don't have hardware support. I think that's the next thing I'd love to see out of them is some type of hardware support, but so for instance, same thing, I've been down to El Zante and I didn't touch Fiat while I was in El Zante the entire time, which was amazing. But in that instance, what I would probably be using is for travel, when I want to bring some Bitcoin with me, but I want an extra layer of security on chain, I'll typically have it in like a mobile wallet and I'll pair it with a tap signer. So tap signers, same guys who make the cold card, but it's just like, I think I've got one like right here, I'll show it, it looks just like a credit card or a room key or something like that, but it's just, you know, a regular like card like this. And the way it works is when I want to spend out of that, like if I want to move it out of cold storage, and I'd say this is kind of like cool storage, because it's, for me, this card is useful for travel. The security it gives me is if somebody gets a hold of my phone, they don't have my money. If somebody steals this card, they don't have my money because they also need a pin to unlock it, but in practice, what it is, if I want it out of cold storage, I send it or I say I want to send it, it says what's your pin, I put that in, and then I tap this card to the back of my phone and that gives me the signature to sign the transaction. So in practice, what I would do or what I've done is I take my cold storage with the card, and then if I need to spend some, if I need to move more out of cold storage, I'll say, let's send it. So what I'll do now is I'll say, let's send it to that pagan address in Aqua. So I'll do one transaction, I'll say, okay, send it from the card to Aqua, and it'll automatically be spendable as lightning. What I'd love to see is an integration of being able to use the tap signer in Aqua as well. So I can just say like, you know, cold storage, you know, straight to spending wallet in the same app. I think that would be ideal. Anyways, that's kind of where I'm at. Because I was kind of stuck at that moment, couldn't replenish anything, go back to the US dollar. Yeah. Yeah. And that's always the tricky bit. You got to, I've always tried to have just a little bit more than I think is like the maximum I'm going to use on a trip, which still is like obviously not a huge chunk of my savings. You never want to do that, but you know, having, having enough through those, you know, with some decent security with a, with an NFC card is nice. But yeah. Yeah. Michael, I'm curious about your, your experience and like how, how you're using Bitcoin these days and has it changed over time? Oh, for sure. So I'm an engineer hard. So whenever these new tools come out, I'm like very excitable and pumped to use them. This is one that I will certainly use. Aqua is my personal favorite lighting wallet, uni is close for me, but those are the two that I've used most frequently. And I just did a bunch of these where I was using Aqua to consolidate UTXOs because I think there's an interesting privacy trade off there, or rather than just in my wallet consolidate all the UTXOs into a single one incrementally sending them to lightning and that are not lightning liquid and then eventually cashing out. So there's a least a little bit more and on anonymity there and it's not such an obvious transaction on chain. But I really think it's interesting that these wallets are starting to make a little more bold decisions. So for example, Muni is using federations and using this specifically for initial users so that ramp up period is really fluid for them. And it's going to be so excited that these different wallets are kind of making slightly different trade offs that are going to appeal to different user types and being slightly more opinionated. Because I think a little while ago it was a lot easier to see these wallets just trying to be the jack of all trades, do everything somewhat mediocre in some senses. But now we've started to see a little more specialization and it's going to be pretty excited because then you can find something that really melts with your specific practices of using lightning. Yeah, I totally agree where when it's trying to be a catch all, at least if it tries to do it all at once, it can fall short in every area. But when there's a focus and there's a commitment to a certain type of backend flow, then I find it's a lot smoother. I really love what Muni is doing with the federations. I know there's been some issues here and it's so early with the sediments. But I think we're going to have to start educating people in the inverse fashionable we're used to. It used to be like, "Okay, let's learn about how a seed phrase works and on-chain transactions." And now that you know that, now there's this thing called lightning. And that's probably the thing you're going to use all the time. But then in high fee environments it's kind of like, "Well, are you actually going to put $500 into a channel as your first experience?" Probably not. So maybe you're going to be using some type of sediment or some type of cashew type system initially. And I honestly think that the end goal is to get people to be as self-sovereign as possible, not your keys, not your coins. But you can't introduce them with a ton of friction. And so I think we need to kind of flip education on its head and start at the lowest hanging fruit, which is getting people to do a transaction in the most accessible layer at the time, and then work your way down the sovereignty stack to hopefully get people to on-chain cold storage when it's economically feasible. It's really hard sell to be like, "Listen, you've got to get yourself a $200 device, and you've got to run a node, and you've got to do these transactions that are going to cost you $10, $20 each to get your savings. And since it doesn't make sense to get $50 at a time, you're going to have to, you know, ape in with like a few thousand bucks." That's not going to be somebody's first step, but they're more likely to get to the point of having on-chain UTXOs to themselves if their first steps aren't so scary. Oh, you just download this app here, receive it, there you go. And I love the idea of being able to work your way through that sovereignty stack within the same environment. And that's why I like Muni is you had come in with Fedamence, and so you don't have to worry about lightning channels or any of that. And then once you build a balance, there was a button that allows you to effectively take self custody in the form of it will take all of your funds and turn them into your own lightning channel, which is great. And then also further from there, you can pull it into on-chain. So like any app that presents an onboarding experience where it's simple and you can work yourself towards owning your money, I think that's a huge win. And I think it's a great point. I work with a lot of engineering types, and this is, I see a lot of it in the Bitcoin space as well, where your initial first touch on Bitcoin was so much more complex and you really won't want to dive into this thing and understand the deep nuances of this. I think the future ways of adoption, just some of the people that are going to be coming are very much likely not those hyper analytical engineering kinds of people. It's important to kind of improve our communications with those folks. Yeah. Because of everyone in Bitcoin either being a super techie developer type or super libertarian. I mean, there's lots of, I mean, I count myself as a pretty libertarian as well. But like, there's a lot of people that are coming in kind of from all over and given that Bitcoin will be, I believe will be used by everybody, you know, it just, I think the types of applications being as accessible as possible is a positive thing. And at the same time, there's always going to be the tools that give you every bell and whistle and advanced feature that you want for the people that have been around the block and know exactly how they want to do things, which is great. So yeah, I just asked, there are a few people, suggestions of wallets that people liked here as well. Zeus, Mutiny, Green, yep, played with those, absolutely. Phenix. Yep. Yeah. Phenix is great. And if I dare ask, how do you have Phenix in the US? I haven't used it in the US. I actually used it in El Salvador. Oh, there you go. Yeah. Because of the whole wallet of Satoshi things shutting down, I switched over to Phenix after that. And they actually pulled out a US app stores, but you must have been able to download it while you were in El Salvador. And so once you have it, it'll auto update from then on. So you don't have to worry about it. I think they were being overly cautious as well. I think we'll ever see a day where things are kind of set up, kind of like credit cards are today where you literally just tap a machine at the gas station and walk away because the payment is done. That already, it does exist. You're away from Bitcoin. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the tap cards for Bitcoin already exist. It'll just be, how does that work on the back end? Like it'll be, is the gas station accepting Bitcoin or it'll be, is there some sort of a swap working with the Fiat system where you can tap a lightning enabled card that triggers a lightning transaction to an entity that then swaps to Fiat and pays the gas station? I feel like all of those things will exist until Fiat ceases to exist and then it'll just be the gas station, except it's lightning with a tap card. Hopefully it'll be alive by then. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Before we do a little rotation and jump into our next topic here, somebody is asking for hardware, what do we like? And also out of compliance mentioned Speedwell, I do quite like them. They're pretty easy. They've got like a browser plug in so you can just pay direct from your browser and pair that with your phone and, I don't know, super easy to use. But for hardware, good question Omar, again, I'm a fan, I love my cold card queue, which is like the bigger one with like the full keyboard and everything and there's so many bells and whistles on that thing. And usually when I'm traveling, I got a tap signer going on is my typical setup, but I'm curious what the coin dad and Michael are using. What are you guys? Oh, there we go. Is that the new Trezor? No, no. This is the limited edition where they only made 2013 of them for their anniversary. It has no shit coins on it. Perfect. That's exactly what I want to hear. That's fantastic. Yeah. That's the safe three, right? I'm using. Yeah. That's not the new five. It's the three, but I still use the one. Yeah. So since 2017, I've been on Trezor One and never had no issues. But I was in a meeting with the lieutenant governor two days ago and in that meeting were some of the people that were in the Bitcoin community in North Carolina. And one of them is from the Casa Hotal team and from from Lop's team over there. And he was mentioning when he asked me what I'm using that I'm still on the Trezor One, he actually said, I highly recommend that you switch to a newer model because those are. I didn't really understand what he was saying. So I don't know if you can. Yeah. Yeah. I know exactly what he's talking about. So I need to move my stuff over now to newer stuff for what I wouldn't say. Yeah. So I wouldn't say that you need to worry about rushing into that, but the safe three is more secure and the reason is that the old Trezors, like the Trezor One and the Trezor Model T, both of those, they didn't have something called a secure element, which is like this fortified chip basically where your actual keys to your money reside. And that chip, if somebody were to like try and take special hardware and like steal your device and get into it and try and extract your seed, if it doesn't have a chip like that, then somebody with the right amount of knowledge in the right hardware would be able to extract your seed from the physical device, not like remotely via hacking, but like if they had access to the physical thing with the safe three and the five. Now it has that secure element chip that even if somebody prided open and did everything that they could, they wouldn't get access to get access to the seed phrase. Now if you have the older Trezors, one thing that does mitigate that attack, the physical attack would be if you added a passphrase, then they'd also need to know the passphrase in order to access it. But even if you don't have a passphrase on it, if you just got the pen, you're more likely than not, the chance of somebody kicking in your door, finding your Trezor wherever it is locked away, getting access to it, and having the knowledge to do that is a lot slimmer. So I wouldn't be panicked about, you know, the key thing is you don't want to move hastily and screw up in between, but just calmly like setting up a new seed on your new device and then just gradually moving funds over, you'll just be that much more secure when you do. So, yeah. Okay. Well, the other thing I actually do, I don't know if anybody else does this, but I decentralize my cold storage. It means I have more than one, more than two, more than three, spreading different places. So if anything ever happens to one, you know, it's not all the law or whatever reasons. Yeah. Risk mitigation, right? You can't have all your eggs in one basket. You can't have all your sats in one place, right? Right. And then multi-state, too. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. I did have, let's see, I'm, before I jump to Michael and ask about your hardware, somebody here was saying, there it is, Matthew, he was saying that he's using cold card, jade, Trezor in the Bitcoin only firmware, which again, awesome, now she coins. And then, I thought I saw somebody else, but there we go. And oh, that's the other thing I wanted to mention, out of compliance said too many wallets equals too many seed phrases to maintain. There is, there is a solution to that out of compliance. Take a look into something called BIP-85. Hold on a second. Yeah. Yeah, so out of compliance, take a look into something called BIP-85. When you have a lot of, say like, hot wallets and stuff like that, you can actually, so what I do is I have a-- Did you have a tornado warning? There's a lot of wind outside of my house. I got a-- Oh, no. Hold on. Yeah, no worries, no worries. Let's not have one of our guests blow away. Yeah. Yeah. So out of compliance, check into BIP-85. What I'll do is I'll have like a dedicated cold card. You know, you can generate like the, they're called like child seed phrases from the parent. So you basically have one seed phrase and then you would say I would like account number one or two or three and each one of those has its own seed phrase which you can always go back to the master and regenerate. So if I have a cold card at home that has its own seed phrase, I could say give me a new seed phrase for account one and it'll spit one out and I can go to a hot wallet on my phone and say I want to import a wallet and put in those 12 words and then use that all the time and if I accidentally smash my phone or delete the app, I don't need to back up that seed phrase. I just need to have my cold card and I need to go back to the cold card and say what was account one again and it'll spit out that seed phrase and I can restore it. And so I only ever have to protect the cold card and the cold card seed phrase and then all these other hot wallets and all the stuff that I tinker with, that's all just in the sub accounts and if any of those are compromised, nobody can work their way backwards to compromise the cold card. So it's a pretty cool system, worth a look, probably a little bit of a convoluted explanation but it solves your problem is what I'm getting at. So Michael, I'm curious for you though. Do you have any favorite hardware stuff that you've worked with? Yeah, your talk of Bitb85 actually is the perfect lead into what I was going to talk about a little bit too. I've been accused before of being a walking talking advertisement for cold card. I'm a huge fan of it along with Sparrow wallet specifically but what I like so much about it is that as I've progressed along my Bitcoin journey and I've wanted to learn about new things, more custody strategies. The cold card has always been right there with absolutely everything and completely adaptable to what I need. Not only that but also it does a good job at kind of teaching you without teaching you. It has these things that are sort of hints at things and I've improved my process a lot directly because of it. Like for example, I randomly got interested in CDEX or a little while ago, specifically watching BTC sessions video about it but I was like, I'm curious if my cold card will adapt to this. I'm going to do things like this and of course it's got every feature I've ever needed and very frequently talking about its praises. Yeah, you can dive pretty deep when it comes to a cold card. On the old one like the Mark 4, when that came out and I did a video on it, I was like, I want this video to be the most in-depth cold card video that exists and I went through it and I tried to cover everything which I couldn't because more features came out afterwards. But that video was two and a half hours long and it just goes through like the basics but then it goes through every like extra feature, little trick curiosity in the background. Yeah, so like it's super versatile. You don't need to use it to that extent but you can if you want to. So it's pretty cool. I think the air gapping mode specifically was incredibly interesting when trying to orange pill relatives and then seeing that the thing literally didn't even have to be plugged into the computer. I think really made some things quick in the brain of how unconnected to the traditional computer vulnerabilities it is. Yeah. I find that's always an aha moment for people. Once people see again you've got a device and you don't connect it to the internet in any way and then you say I just made a bitcoin wallet and I'm going to take a little bit of info from this device on an SD card and put it on my computer and I'm going to just let the computer know about my addresses like my basically let them know like where to deposit and people are like hold on how are you able to approve like how are you able to receive to your cold card if it's not plugged in or how are you able to receive and approve a transaction if your cold card never goes on the internet and you have to kind of like step back and say well listen like the cold card doesn't hold or any hardware wallet doesn't hold any bitcoin like it literally holds no money all the bitcoin is on the bitcoin blockchain it's a global ledger so that's it's kind of everywhere what your cold card actually holds is keys so you can kind of think of it like there's a there's a digital lock box in the sky that holds your coins and you've just got a key so like all you need is your key to unlock that box so that you can take out the cash and then you can slide it into anybody else's slot but like it's the keys that you're holding not the money and and that's that moment of oh like they it's a mental hurdle for a lot of people I think you know when I learned that my learning moment for that was when I accidentally had my treasure in my my pajamas and my wife washed everything in the in the wash and my treasure was in there went through the whole washing and drying cycle and then I was folding my clothes and I get to my PJ's and my treasure fell out my heart thunk I'm like oh my god did I just lose all of my bitcoin this was back 2017 2018 and that's when I figured out that I could buy a new one as long as I got my keys and move everything over the new one yeah it's it's very freeing when you when you clear that mental hurdle like okay I've got it just like your house you've got a key to your house and you've got a spare key you know it's you start to piece it to get okay I've got a spare key don't worry I've got my words so yeah it's it's pretty interesting so anyways I'll let's put a bow on our our wallet talk here and we're going to do another rotation so thanks for indulging me in my extended chat about wallets and everything but we're gonna toss it to coin dad here and I'm gonna queue you up with the same question everybody gets why are you bullish I was thinking about that a little earlier today for a little while one thing that got me bullish is actually looking back at all the conferences I've been to I got a drawer full of freakin lanyards or lanyards here probably 30 of them and going back to from the first conferences and how over the years the people that you meet the the booths that you see the the growth in these conferences or the amount of people that show up like you could just tell physically not just online or for many numbers but just physically the vibe and the amount of people shown up and and the the booths of all the different ideas people have come up with you know like in Nashville it's my my friend like I told you earlier before the we got on live it's my first time ever seeing these cards and I'm like how cool is that that we're here got Bitcoin trading cards now with some of the this is Michael sailors first ever signed card like I got them to sign it while I was there but I got hooked and I'm people around their booth and everybody's buying cards and then you look over and you see the artwork and then you go around the corner and then you see bid acts and the little home miners and stuff being sold now and they have literally tens of thousands of them out there on the blockchain now running this type of growth in the industry I've seen it through these conference events this got me pretty bullish and even like like in the fiat world if you wanted to meet a billionaire you got to wait six weeks and get and it has to be for a good reason and in 48 hours in Nashville I met five billionaires only in the Bitcoin world can you do something like that you know that just shows you the interest of of different caliber level people even up high that are coming into the space and that's that's got me pretty bullish that's awesome I mean shout out to the Bitcoin trading cards guys it's it's funny because when I first kind of heard about the idea I was not quite sold on it but I do really love artwork and I was a as a kid I grew up I was collecting like the Marvel like the superhero cards and I had all my my little booklets of those and so as I kind of saw them I was like oh the okay these are actually pretty cool and and they've they've done a really good job not only just with the artwork and and and the product itself but also just like the way that they've been able to hype it up and build this crazy community of people collecting all these and like you get each other's cards there was I was in Miami last year funny story and and I go I walk into the bathroom and I I go up to the urinal and I like sidle up beside Dylan LaClaire and I was like yo I pulled your card you got to sign it he's like cool you got to sign yours and then as we're like talking about it glad steam comes in he's like ditto all three of us in a row but they yeah so they ended up put my my stupid hair on a card to which I'd nerd it out too extensively when they did and yeah I think it's such a fun fun project those bit axes are awesome too I just did a video on that a couple weeks back and I have the nerd axe but you know same idea a fork of the same project and yeah he's the one that made the first prototype and he lives like an hour for me and I'm friends with him he's a great guy he's actually in the cat right now is he's yeah there is he's excited excited about the 22 business I actually have the the bit axe prototype in my museum signed by him now that's awesome yeah that's so cool that's so cool yeah they again like there's there's so many it's wild how many events are going on and the scale of of where they're at right now like you you have you can't even go to all of them anymore there's so many a year in so many different places yeah no it's it's it's impossible Michael have you been to a bunch of you've been out to some events this past year I have not a young baby right yeah you're the most very anti-social which is a little bit against my personality of going home loving to talk to people but the Bitcoin trading cards thing like it's so inspiring to me how many subcultures are within Bitcoin and specifically creating different sorts of art I just that there's so many different things the a lot of the Bitcoin fiction that I've been pretty into is just like there's a subculture there there's a subculture of like music in Bitcoin it's wild how many of these things there are and just how much support there is across the community for each of them yeah it's it's it's really cool I love the I mean it's natural that this happens as as an interest in a particular thing grows there's gonna be subsets of people that are super in tune with certain parts of it again like it's a case in point we've got mining we've got it like you're talked about fiction obviously I'm I'm kind of on the wallet and and device side of things funny enough the mining side of it was quite a blind spot for me for a long time it just it would took me years before I even you know tried anything really and yeah so like people tend to specialize a little bit but that's what these events I think also are beginning to cater to because now there's so many events that you can't just unless you're like the Bitcoin conference it's really tough to be an all-in-one when there's so many going on so I think we're probably gonna see a specialization in events as well you know like you'll have like more kind of dev hackathon type things you'll have hardware related you already have mining related specific events I think you'll have privacy related events you'll probably have the lightning I mean you already kind of do have lightning only event so that you're seeing like this specialization of of events to attract certain types of Bitcoiners even now yeah yeah it's um I mean so you've been to you were at mining disrupt you said right correct how and how's that one like I've not been to it before right outside of Miami airport they were Miami Convention Center and I guessing it's four to five thousand people miners from around the world like what was wild is that you had even all the way up from Canada there's a company called Digital Shovel up there that does containers they build containers and they have other manufacturers around the country that would throw an entire 20 foot or 40 foot container on an 18-wheeler drive all the way to Miami and then open up double doors in the back and then slowly creep this huge container into the convention center back there and have all the miners set up have immersion cooling like you could just have you can walk through all these big displays of actual containers in the conference it was pretty sick that's really really cool oh that's that's awesome um what's on the so I guess I'll ask Michael when when you're through the gamut of of young children do you have anything in mind that you'd like to get to is there is there anything that's uh uh peeking your interest of places you'd like to go and or conferences you'd like to see oh I'm already for sure going to Vegas for Bitcoin 2025 I talked to my wife like we had this year where we stayed in one place but when do you wrap me up my book here probably in the next six months or so and I'm just like got to get out there show it to people need some people in the world that I've been friends with for years now nice I just bought Vegas this morning so I'm gonna I am very curious different uh sub conferences or smaller ones that you guys would most highly recommend because I'm gonna branch out a little bit too I you know what one of my favorite events to go to um and it's not a Bitcoin conference but it's Bitcoin adjacent is the Oslo Freedom Forum um it's always and it's uh it's an emotionally jarring one to go to because you get human rights activists from around the world that have just been through horrific experiences um and Bitcoin is just kind of there because it's a useful tool in the tool belt of a lot of these people and so like it's all of the programming is in and around you know like people living under dictators or you know tyrannical regimes and trying to navigate that um but then you also have like a financial freedom track that Bitcoin has plugged into that you know Gladstein and the the folks at the HRF have pioneered and um it's really cool uh I think that we get into a bit of a trap of where we all go to the Bitcoin conference or or you know Bitcoin conferences where everybody is all about Bitcoin and understands what everything is and so if you kind of you know you get into even though you can appreciate when you go back home and nobody gives a shit about anything you're talking about and but you get to that conference and and you're like oh everybody loves this everything's inevitable but then you get to something like the Oslo Freedom Forum and people are like okay cool I can maybe see how this or there's skepticism or there's maybe I see how this can be useful but like okay what do I do after this point and and it or I know I need the app to do this because this is what I need to do and it's it's a bit of a check on where we think we are versus where we actually need to need to be and it allows you know I think the HRF is now um going out and trying to work specifically with the people that are in areas that are most difficult to use Bitcoin but also the developers that can build the tools to help those people because until you actually speak to the people that you're trying to solve the problem too how can you possibly solve the problem um and so yeah that's one of my favorite things to go to is just you get to see Bitcoin in a very different light when it's juxtaposed against this pretty heavy general topic so yeah that that's for me so you're constantly in orange pill mode versus being in an event where everybody's already orange pill yeah yeah and you actually really have to um you have to up your game when it gets to explaining how something might be useful to somebody but also um you have to ask and address real questions and you have to concede when when something is not a silver bullet but can be used in tandem with other things to at least help where maybe there would have been a brick wall before yeah yeah yeah so i don't know with the trucker situation yeah yeah exactly like the trucker situation it was um you know you're trying to get money to people um obviously traditional finance which like anything was better than having your bank account shut down and so it gave a conduit but at the same time you're grappling with teaching people all the used stuff getting the money to them most of it did get there but some of it got caught up um in a legal battle unfortunately it's bad timing and a concentration of keys but it was the only digital mechanism that actually got to the truckers and masks um and then you know there's there's privacy issues where um because of the haste with which it was done where um it was it was easier to audit like where are those bitcoin right now and it was easier for them to say like we're gonna try and flag certain addresses if they go to exchanges but they also didn't have um they didn't have the the government didn't have the experience of uh really being able to tackle that and so um they were pretty ill prepared for it as well so it was it was pretty much as simple as like if somebody had moved to another address and then deposited to an exchange it wouldn't have been a problem and as far as i'm aware of all the money that got handed out directly to truckers none of that got seized anywhere um which and who knows some some of the truckers may not have ever accessed it but we you know it was given to them so um yeah but yeah at a fantastic use case and it gave us a blueprint of how to do it better next time yeah yeah so um the the other the other recommendation that i'll toss out there for events um i'm going to a couple through the end of the year so i'm going to i did a lot of traveling this year i got to cut down a little bit next year but um i'm going to um uh i'm going to go to unconfiscatable in in vegas in september um that's just a weekend that's like a fun one that i'm looking forward to but um tony vase does that one right yeah yeah tony vase does that one so i'm i didn't make it out last year but i'm going to go to that one um at the end of august i'm actually going to one that's been around forever it's called baltag honey badger in rega and that one's just amazing i love it so much it was it was so fun last time and it's very like high signal it's one of the oldest existing conferences that are out there today um where is it it's in it's in rega labia from the on the baltag sea wow yeah i've never seen that one yeah it's uh uh the the town itself is very medieval um really really cool place to do it uh but it's it's awesome um i'm going to uh lugano plan b i've never been before but uh that's in switzerland but the one that i've really loved this past year was prog btz prog was insane like the the size of it and the focus and the organization like it was it was an absolutely amazing conference i think it's going to be super busy i think there were ten thousand people there this year in prerog i'd be surprised if uh if it wasn't 15 i've never been to that one i want to go to that one and i spoke to the founder of the event yeah because there were some people asking me if i'm going to bring my museum to that one and i have never taken my museum out of the u.s. before and i think the only way that i would ever because i'm i'm a white glove hands on with my team nobody touches my stuff because yeah like right here i have only one of these and this is the oldest 13 year old minor fpga before a6 that i own if this falls and breaks i can't go on amazon and order another one so like if i was to ever take anything out of the country it would be like on michael sailor's jet and i pack it in the jet and i'm on the jet with my team michael you heard it here first we need that check if you could just land it for a weekend all the way i would bring it because ain't nobody from lufthansa or anywhere else touching my stuff yeah well uh again the the organizers of prog uh martin and mateus they're they're amazing they put together an incredible event and uh i think it's in i think it's late june next year but also progs a beautiful city so if you get the chance you should probably check it out yeah um well with that i guess well let's uh we can put a bow on uh on this topic as well we have one more rotation to get through uh but before we do i got to give a quick shout out to our remaining sponsors also we're going to give away some sats when we get back so everybody uh get your lightning wallets ready get them queued up uh because somebody's gonna uh somebody in the audience is gonna have to uh try and snag these sats before anybody else does so if you have a wallet that can uh do ln url withdrawals uh then just just get it ready because there might be a little QR code on the screen to uh to send you some sats ASAP so we'll be back in one minute we'll see you guys soon kwan lightning wallet built with simplicity and mind spend and receive with ease claim your own lightning address shop your favorite gift cards and even earn rewards when you spend head over to speed dot app to download the app on your mobile or desktop today and use the link down below to get five thousand sats for free and have the chance to win even more allows you to borrow against your bitcoin in a non-custodial way collateral is held in a three of four distributed multi-sig with trusted parties it provides institutional liquidity providers loan periods of up to five years with flexible conditions and the best rates and best of all no re-hypovication of your funds if you want to check them out today head over to debified dot com or hit the link in the show notes down below all right we are back and uh the kwan dad has not yet blown away so so you'd be careful there let us know i mean i guess we'll uh see the lights flicker if it gets a little too wild there but be careful i got see like elan must satellite dish so i'm pretty surprised that we're still online in the middle of a heavy storm outside yeah holy crap well i'm i'm cross my fingers that uh we we make it through me and michael will hold down the fort if you need to go to the basement though so just be cautious over in this house i got one in the pantry at the bottom there you go all right so that that can be uh your uh your your bunker slash citadel if if need be i suppose yeah there we go yeah take that down for sure well let's uh let's give away some sats quick before we get to michael's reason for being bullish so uh everybody that is watching right now this is bitcoin well and we are about to uh throw a coin in the bitcoin well wishing well uh so anybody unfamiliar uh bitcoin well is in canada in the u.s great place to uh purchase a bitcoin as well as pay your bills and a whole bunch of other cool things here but um as you use the platform as you sign up as you buy bitcoin as you refer friends you earn points and these points can be used to throw a coin in the wishing well and win sats and you can win anywhere from 500 to a million sats uh and we're going to toss a coin in the well right now so i'm going to bring it up we're going to redeem 500 points here and off it goes and i'll enlarge this for a second and 500 sats there so whoever scans that first is going to steal them away from everybody else i'll give you a few seconds here before i shrink it back down and uh if you do get the free sats make sure you let me know either in the chat or on twitter or on uh or on noster and feel free to give bitcoin well a tag as well to say thanks for the sats anyways guys we're going to uh i'll shrink that back down and uh we're going to jump right back in and uh michael i'm going to toss it to you as our final reason for being bullish i'll queue you up same same question why are you bullish so i am ever bullish so it was a little bit challenging to whittle this one down um but uh the primary thing lately has been bullish on the people in bitcoin and specifically bitcoin making people better um there's a lot of talk and we mentioned subcultures earlier um some of people getting in much better shape people doing carnivore dieting and other things people taking up martial arts self defense all these sorts of things and kind of being inspired inspired from the self-ownership that bitcoin taught them um but i think it's interesting the other side of that too uh so we're in my opinion attracting a lot of people that have been deep down the self-improvement rabbit hole before coming to bitcoin um for myself i was in terrible shape i had really severe eczema all over my skin i had i have tread syndrome still too so i had pretty out of control like physical issues for much of my life and i went on a pretty big journey really questioning a lot of my health and diet habits and whatnot and i'm in much better shape now than i used to be about 60 pounds lighter and much more muscular and everything's good skin is great but in doing that there was a i had to consistently question everything about my life like my body was wrecked i felt terrible i was depressed um and nothing was working tried all sorts of different diets crazy stuff long long fast vegan diets and that constant process of being open-minded questioning trying this new thing being open-minded questioning maybe that didn't work we need to iterate more and more and find more things that work that mindset and finding people that adopted that mindset was actually what led me to bitcoin in the first place so a lot of bitcoiners like kind of get into big coins see other things like carnivore i kind of came the other way where i was like an extremely early adopter early adopter of carnivore dieting um and it was one of the tools one of many that helped me to uh get in a lot better shape alleviate some of my health issues that i was having and played with for such a long time um but i'm so bullish because i think that just like bitcoin makes people better in my opinion it also is bringing in these awesome people that have went through this same level of hardships and questioning um one of my all-time favorite quotes is the miumoto musashi once you find the way broadly you will see it in all things i really do feel that way about bitcoin too where that constant questioning that you have to go through constantly challenging your beliefs to get good at anything in the world um is kind of the same sort of mindset you need to have to learn about bitcoin i was wrong many times about bitcoin i didn't think it would work i thought it was a fact that people were speculating a gamble with it but i learned over a lot of time that to consistently question all of your belief systems and to never you know just take something for face value and that's what made bitcoin quick so quickly for me and i'm seeing that happen with new people adopted now and i'm super bullish for that because i think we're gonna get very wealthy over these next handful of years here and makes me really happy that it's the people that are taking such good care of themselves and really trying to be better that are going to be the ones that profit from them yeah it's very interesting i think you're right where um i mean you have a bit of an inverse story for bitcoin but it's it's i guess the mindset like you said that kind of led you there to recognize oh maybe i should question my my preconceived notions and um and for me it was it was definitely the opposite right like i bitcoin was my first inkling um that my belief system may not be correct um and what i mean by that is um you know i i came into bitcoin curious and um i learned a little bit about it for a few months you know i saw it for for you know a handful of times through 2013 as it was going through one of its many parabolic rises and and i kind of ignored it each time or thought oh that would have been nice if i hadn't missed the boat and then as it kind of came through the peak of that year i was like oh my god this is again either a Ponzi scheme or there's something there so i spent not that long i mean to me it wasn't that long a couple months kind of reading up and trying to learn as much as i could before i started getting any bitcoin and then when i did shortly thereafter the largest exchange on the planet at the time now gox imploded and i wasn't on that exchange but it was all over the news and i for the first time ever something that i understood um but then sorry for the uh the background noise here if you guys are here in a lawnmower but um something that i spent in my opinion a very minimal amount of time understanding i knew for a fact was being presented completely incorrectly on the news and presented as fact because the messaging was bitcoin got hacked and it's done now and i knew that no that was effectively a bitcoin bank that was poorly managed and lost people's money how how do they not know this like i'd known next to nothing about bitcoin but i know for sure that messaging is totally wrong and every news station every article everything bitcoin got hacked bitcoin got hacked it didn't it was functioning exactly as it should have whoever had the keys had the coins somebody managed keys poorly bitcoin got stolen bitcoin was in no way hacked at the time and so it was very jarring at the time to to look and say oh my god like i know next to nothing about this i know how blatantly incorrect every single news network and newspaper and everything is reporting this what about other topics that i'm not as well informed on is it possible that they could also be reporting certain things incorrectly like obviously there's going to be some things reported correctly and other things not but like why you know if i if i knew that this was incorrect that it gave me that impetus to be like i need to i need to really question if i trust certain stories on certain things like i i if if it's important to me maybe i should dive into certain stories more and with you as talking about health and everything um that i think that's one of the things that people come to and and i'm in the midst of reading fiat food right now uh with um matt uh lis lisa or lisiac i'm not sure how to say his last name but um oh my god our food system is so screwed and he's actually an individual who came who read the fiat standard and there was a short um from sevadine and there was a short chapter on fiat food in it and he agreed with it safe on everything else and he got to that and he was like this sounds like total bs like i'm going to start fact checking this and he's a and he is a um investigative journalist for the past 20 years and so he started and you know he specialized in like uh uncovering government corruption and he dove into it and he was like actually it was massively understated how corrupt our entire food system is and he goes to the entire history and it's again like you begin to question things and you know i'm now questioning everything i knew about health and food and i'm i'm tweaking things and i i always knew that i had to change the guy i i'm pretty bad when it comes to eating garbage but i think the thing that's kind of pushed me over the edge is before it was just like a bad habit and i had to grapple with that but now i'm angry because i feel like they got me every time i eat some crap food it's like it's not just me making bad choices it's like there's an apparatus that because of the misaligned incentives are serving me up just absolute trash food that is not meant for human consumption and that makes me angry more than anything and so it helps me grapple with my cravings for certain bad foods and get around those by saying no i can't i can't let those assholes feed me this sludge i need to treat myself better than that and so yeah because there's all kind of rabbit holes you could go down the self-improvement but i think there's a general tendency to question things when people are working towards that i'm curious if the coin dad has any like is is there you know in and around bitcoin is there other tangential topics where bitcoin has made you level up or question things elsewhere like before bitcoin i lived with everybody's telling me the truth unless i catch you in the lie after bitcoin now it's like everybody's lying to me unless i catch you telling the truth so it's like like like you know my wife and i go grocery shopping and we'd like every other time we buy eggs and then you see the eggs are just a regular yellow and then my neighbor has chickens and then we tried his eggs because he gave us some as a gift and they're bitcoin orange on the inside i'm like how come the regular eggs are not like this and now here we are with 14 chickens in our own backyard using our own eggs and we eat fish and then we see that there's crap in the fish and now i built a pond and i got my own bass and my own crappy 500 of them in there and i feed them myself so it's just like even on my own 15 acres bitcoin has caused me and my wife to look at things differently in the light of the food side the health side even even down to like getting vitamin d from the sun uh like skin cancer is most likely from the lotions you put on your skin not from the sun so it's it's you know this and i learned a lot of that from being outside of the door from the people that are there so but i didn't go to El Salvador i would have never went to El Salvador but unless it was for bitcoin so it's like bitcoin doesn't just change your life financially there's it changes your life almost in every aspect of your life in so many different ways like we could sit here another six hours and go down there we'll have it all right it's great i again like i i love i love seeing people kind of make those um make those leaps and and just the general kind of self-improvement and working towards being better and i think it's a function of a couple things but it's it's mainly a function of the fact that you can just have anybody um you you have seamless global communication instantly and humanity is still grappling with that quite a bit because obviously we need to learn how to disseminate information and think critically about things and before it was just no i've got i've got my box at home that tells me what's real and what's not right you everybody just had the evening news and and that's it and it was very easy to just get society to blanket believe whatever you want when that's that's all you have to serve information and you can't go on or or you can't here um have somebody go viral for proving something to be false like that that didn't exist before and so now i think we're beginning to see humanity as a whole grapple with the idea of um we're not going to get information top down anymore it's going to be much more bottom up and it's a lot messier that way but you get to the truth quicker that way as well um and so yeah and and and we're you know obviously all of us at some point or another would be wrong about things um but that that comes to the surface quicker when it's actually open discussion instead of shutting things down and preventing people from uh sharing information and so i i think we're going in the right direction it's just it'll be a bumpy road kind of getting everybody there and there's and there's always going to be pushback there's always going to be the people that that are worried about disinformation and all we need to prevent we need to prevent everybody from speaking and only have trusted sources of information i think the total opposite if somebody is is spewing BS out there and it's completely wrong let them do it but let better ideas bubble to the top let people like force people to actually think for themselves and and sort through the information and figure out what is good information and why is this bad information you know like i i i think if we weren't bubble wrapped and babysat at our and at our entire lives or in for generations prior um maybe we'd be an awful lot better at it today i don't know i'm so glad you brought up the internet thing too because we have this since just incredible resource so much uh data at our fingertips where when i was going down the health rabbit hole i i really went through that first principle style reasoning and that was kind of what got me out of it looking through how humans had with for hundreds of thousands of years first and initially i was like okay well this was an interesting tool to solve this problem really thinking through the core things but then the same thing worked for bitcoin thinking about what is money what problem does this solve rather than just adopt the previous bs information of the news fed me and now i'm like okay well maybe we can apply this learning strategy to almost everything we have this gigantic wealth of information out there there's a macro skill you can learn in improving your ability to parse that information and it's just incredible there's so much stuff out there and it's very optimistic in my opinion yeah now are you guys at least a little I don't know the scary part to me is this whole AI thing you know like my grandmother got a phone call from somebody that has my exact voice because they copied my voice off of youtube channels saying hey i'm in Dubai at the airport and they took my passport and i need two thousand dollars to get it back and my grandmother called my dad my dad calls my wife my wife's like nope he's right here next to me he's nothing Dubai so it's it's that's one experience another one is through telegram there's hackers that are taking the coin dad name we're not hackers but scammers and and then trying to sell cheap machines in my name because i also i'm a broker outside of the mining space uh and and one of my clients lost 45 000 dollars bitcoin just three four weeks ago down on floor and then another one two weeks after that for 14 000 dollars and then a publicly traded company ceo called my cell phone and says hey i've been talking to the coin dad for the past week on a half a million dollar deal was that you and i was like no i'm sitting here watching a movie at home that was not me so it's just it's scary how the internet can be awesome in many ways but then you have to be very careful in many other ways as well yeah i think you're going to get to the point where um you know like already you're talking about voice spoofing right i actually for the first time had somebody do that being me the other day call somebody that i i knew not not phone call but like a video call uh or not video call but like a voice note or something um because they had started up some fake page saying they were me and then they wanted you know somebody to send the money or whatever anyways the person was you know was being cautious enough to ask to send me a message and say hey is this you and uh and then they kept you know kept stringing the person along for a little bit and then the person tried to tried to get them to to think it was actually me by sending them just a voice message it wasn't quite there like it was it just sounded a little slow and so something was off about it but um but it was still scary like it sounded like me it just was something was weird about it but you're going to get to the point very quickly where it will be a perfect image of you like a video call with your voice with your face with everything that looks exactly the same in real time and can just have a conversation that's already like that is this close to happening and at that point i think the only way that the world can grapple with that is is a technology that already exists but far too few people use which is PGP right like you're going to have to have a key pair and and a a vetted um uh known public like public key that you can verify anything online with and so this is what software developers do all the time they'll sign a new software release and they'll be an entire history of this software key having signed previous releases and so unless somebody has a copy of that key then uh they couldn't spoof that um and so you know i think we might get into a situation where and and maybe noster becomes this right maybe the the the the idea of having a uh a persona online that is linked to a private key and everything that you post if it's not signed by you there's no proof it is you much like a bitcoin transaction you can't send a bitcoin transaction without your private key and so if somebody looks at you know a post by you and it's not signed by your private key then there's no proof it was you and the nice thing is even if that key is compromised somebody could pretend to be you but you can also with the same key go and say hey this key is compromised um i'm moving to this one and like the you know you you can at least let people know that it's compromised at the same time that somebody's saying you know incorrect things on on your profile so like there's but at the end of the day it all comes back to the real world it all comes back to being in meat space with somebody because you can then get multiple people to vet you because you can speak to them in person and say yeah this is my new key and then that person with their private private key can sign a message saying yes this is the correct key and you can get like a web of trust going but it all comes down to real world connections like no matter what we do online it's going to come back to the reality the real physical world and uh yeah but people are going to have to navigate that anything you see on the screen it might not be real from now on what i like to do is ask them that's my military background but i ask security questions like where did we first meet ever like where exactly was it you know things of that nature that nobody else can answer or even in a live like i tell some of my clients if you have doubts before you send any money to do anything do a live video call with me and make me hold my drivers as a license up next to my face and so yeah even with AI technology that's kind of hard to do because you don't have my updated driver's license yeah things of that nature yeah hundred percent and again like it can be worked around but people really really need to get used to the idea that um anything they see in here if it's not in the real world this point you don't know you don't know if it's real or not so and that's uh not not the ideal place to be but um the world will catch up real fast when it becomes a real problem and it's it's about to i think so yeah um so gentlemen um what i want to do uh i know i like the rabbit hole that we really got down there that's great um so uh i'm gonna i'm conscious of time i'm going to start rounding up the show but i like to at the very end of every show um just do a quick round amongst us of any final thoughts anything that you took away from the episode but also any recommendation that you might give to people watching and this could be a recommendation for anything it could be just a general piece of life advice it could be oh check if this new app or device or it could be check of this movie or book um whatever it is doesn't matter anything that you think people watching may find useful um and so i'll get us started so that you guys can kind of stew with that for a sec um take away from the show for me is in and around again this this specialization of of uh bitcoin and kind of this focus and i think that this thread kind of pulls through it a lot so you know i was talking about you know actual applications and tech and and so those are becoming very specialized and it's those are going to cater to a certain type of bitcoin or depending on what your goals are when we were talking about events those are starting to segregate into very specific kind of niche types of bitcoiners and even when it comes to outside of bitcoin people are are beginning to kind of focus in on on different other aspects of life you know getting healthy um you know build a becoming self-sufficient in many different ways like going in and having your own fish or like having your own chicken and egg like people are beginning to specialize in and and become more self-sufficient and uh and and question everything around them because of bitcoin or because they're in the mindset that led them to bitcoin and so i think this is an incredibly positive thing um i'm very excited about it and we're only going to see more of it and in terms of recommendations for people um i'm going to say you know what if you haven't tried it yet just because i i really like the update if you haven't tried it yet go go download aqua wallet i think it's great um it's it's for me from uh uh like a day-to-day wallet i think it's fantastic and i really like what they're doing in the back end with this interoperability using liquid as like a spending wallet but interoperating with lightning um and and that kind of push to the background of the complexity of that uh i think is really nice and uh i i think they're gonna continue to listen to user feedback and iterate on that and it'll become smoother over time as well so um yeah that's that's the one i would recommend but uh i will toss it over to the coin dad here as well and i'll just ask you do you have any final thoughts or recommendations um the aqua wallet does that sound some mouth yes it is yeah yeah he signed the shoot there you go great great great guy um on the thing that i took away was really on the health side of michael was pointing out even though i'm kind of already down that rabbit hole with the things that we're doing building a homestead and stuff uh just to hear him speak it in more depth it's more reassuring that i need to continue what i'm doing uh like just literally my wife is actually watching this right now but me and her had a talk just two three hours ago about doing a 48 hour water fast this weekend and cleansing our body from all the stuff from nashville and everything prior to that we're mining disrupt is anywhere anytime you're on the road and and you're busy having to do the it's always junk food fast food and crap you don't really have time to sit down and make a nice sandwich or make a nice salad and eat healthy so we're going to focus on that uh on the recommendation recommendations uh one thing that i've and this is really just from my own experience uh when when i heard bitcoin for the first time in 2013 i remember it was 30 bucks i blew it off as internet money for monopoly money for geeks that was my first thought then in 2015 i heard it again and and i still didn't take it seriously then in 2000 early 2017 is my third time and it seems like when people hear hear things three times that's when they take things seriously and look into it so i'm at walmart and then at the register there was a single mom with no with uh there were three kids in front of me and one of them was a teenager and i made a joke of when the register when it was time for her to pay uh i said you can probably pay in bitcoin you accept bitcoin and this is walmart it's i'm just making a joke i know they don't and the mother said oh that's uh a scam money don't know what to use that and her little her 16-year-old daughter was like oh mom the kids of my school use it we actually do it with video games and stuff and i her mom dog dropped but i realized like when when you say the word bitcoin even if it's not trying to orange pill somebody just to use the word around somebody that means it might be their first second or third time hearing it so if you're that third person maybe that poor person just jumped in the car went home and went on the internet and started taking it seriously because i was the third person in her life to say it so i would recommend saying bitcoin even if you're not orange killing anybody just to use it in your everyday life around you as a joke sometimes i love that so much like especially thinking about how you may not orange pill the person but it could be that first or second time that's going to help them the subsequent time and just getting exposure positive yeah that's exactly right i love that well michael i'll i'll i'll then i guess toss it down to you as well um final thoughts recommendations you can jump right in i kind of bounced to a different topic that we alluded to just a little bit earlier but uh my recommendation is hidden repression by alice gladstein he mentioned him in the uh also freedom form earlier i've been uh deep into his work so mention i've been working on bitcoin now but for the last couple years and one of the characters is deeply inspired by uh some things i learned in repression i'm trying to find um very physical and emotional ways to convey bitcoin to people that aren't like me i'm very engineering like numbers and data and stuff but my wife loves fiction um and like really finding visceral ways to explain how powerful 12 words in your head can be for somebody in those situations and the strategy for doing that is very much inspired by gladstein's work um and kind of alluding to some of that stuff in there so i've been deep into that book deep into all of his things and all this talks and whatnot and my recommendation would be that if you haven't checked that stuff out i highly recommend it that's fantastic well i will uh am i allowed to uh float that to him i'm gonna see him in person tomorrow night do it man i'll let him i'll let him know um no that's awesome well i have seen signature one here too i'm surprised like for the amount of signatures on that you're really taking a lot of boxes there i still got all the ways to go you're not on here i'll i'll uh next time i'm down i'll i'll definitely check and scratch my way through it so that's awesome michael you uh how how far out did you say you are from uh getting your book done do you think uh five or six months roughly that's yeah it's about the first one took me a few years like 1500 hours or something i think this was going to take me closer to 2000 but it yeah it's close i am super bullish on that right now as well i had my wife who's like a very good editor read it and definitely conveyed and connected some bitcoin topics for her so that was just the most reassuring thing like this thing i've been trying to do it it works so now it's just connecting some of the bits that are a little bit messy and making it as captivating and emotionally driven as possible so a person that's not crazy interested in bitcoin literally can't put it down anyway that's that's incredible that's awesome and uh and you're again that book recommendation i've got to say for it's it's a very concise like it's a short concise easy read i've never been more angry when reading a book uh then then a hidden repression it's just so the the the the imf and the bank of international settlements are just so impossibly malicious like i just didn't realize like the the the degree to which um uh the the amount of misery that they have bestowed upon the world through their systems so if you haven't read it yeah absolutely hidden repression by Alex Gladstein is is a hell of a read but it does end on a positive note and it was like a breath of fresh air as i got to kind of near the end of the book and it's just oh yeah there is hope um so yeah highly recommended i'm glad you brought that one out but um awesome well for those that are not into reading god bless bitcoin just came out and i recommend anybody to watch that and i think it's also a perfect orange pill documentary to send people to awesome i love that i haven't watched it yet i've got it queued up i just been a little busy this week so i'll i'll be getting to it soon um well awesome gentlemen we're gonna round out here uh that was fantastic everybody watching of course uh both these gentlemen their uh their handles are in these show notes down below so make sure you give them a follow see what they're up to and keep your eyes out for uh the next appearance of the bitcoin mining museum and for michael's book when it does drop and uh gents i will just say again thank you so much for joining me on a friday to get bullish and of course you both are welcome back anytime i turned my date night down just for you man this is a hotter date anyway it's all right awesome thanks guys i appreciate it have a good weekend all right see you all right and everybody thank you guys so much for being here as well i hope you guys enjoyed the show again please do follow these gents their links are in these show notes down below you can also like subscribe share those things help a ton you can hit up the previously mentioned sponsors in the show notes down below that always helps and finally if you are perusing the uh tutorials on the channel and you need a little bit of extra handholding you can reach out at my to my team at bitcoin mentor.io uh i've assembled an incredible team of amazing bitcoin educators they can help you through anything from wallets to hardware to multi-sig lightning and layer two is running a node home mining all that stuff and more and you can reach out again bitcoin mentor.io you can book a free 15-minute session to kind of assess what you need and then if you feel like it's the right fit you can move forward with uh a session or a package uh and on the same note if you know friends and family and you're going to be pointing them that way anyways then we do have an affiliate program as well that's at bitcoin mentor.io/affiliate-registration and uh you can sign up to be an affiliate of bitcoin mentor and actually uh you earn in bitcoin and every session that you refer a person to that they end up signing in signing up and paying for you get 21 bucks uh and uh you get paid out every month in bitcoin as long as your uh your balance is above uh two hundred bucks so yeah get over there and uh feel free to earn some sats on the side while people are getting educated as well uh but with that i'm going to round out thank you guys so much for being here um again uh appreciate you guys joining me every week it's always a blast and give these gents a follow i'm out have yourselves a wonderful day or evening wherever you may be see you guys next time for your daily session huddle get bitcoin [BLANK_AUDIO]