Rebecca and Tori chat about Lie to Me. We tangent as usual covering childhood in the 1970s and 80s, the Jolly Chimp, Elizabeth Bathory, Jason Isaac, and the origin of "don't drink the Kool-Aid."
Wallowing in the Shallows
WITS chats Buffy the Vampire Slayer S2E7
[Music] Welcome to Wallowing in the Shallows, the podcast at Skirks, the perilous drop-off of a deep dive into television and movies. We are Academic Nerds aspiring to become TV and movie geeks. There are no spoiler cards in the shallows, so listen at your own risk. This week, join us for a wallow, and a Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Season 2, rewatch. [Music] Hey, hello peeps! Welcome back to Wallowing in the Shallows, this is Tori. And this is Rebecca, and today we are talking about Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Season 2, Episode 7, lie to me. In this episode, in particular, I started asking myself, because I think this is an important episode. Yes. Even though it's not necessarily one of my favorite episodes, I think it's important for Buffy and her process of growing up. And so I was trying to remember that term for novels, right, that are about young people's journey to adulthood. Coming of age? Yeah, the coming of age thing. What the Bill Duggs Roman, is that how you say that? Do you know what I'm talking about? I don't. Yeah, there's this term. And I only learned it because I was doing one of the top-sugar reading challenges one year, and it was pick a book that's in the Bill Duggs Roman genre, and I was thinking to myself when I read that, I don't know what that means. So I had to look it up, and it's all about coming of age. And I think this episode is one of those episodes that really kind of demonstrates it for Buffy because she learns some kind of hard lessons, for sure. So, wow, what did you say? Bill Duggs coming? Bill Duggs Roman, it's B-I-L-D-U-N-G-S-R-O-M-A-N. Well done, it's Roman. It sort of reminds me of Romsprager or something. Yeah, I mean, it might be a German word. Wow, it kind of makes me think that it is. I did not look up the etymology of it, so. Sure, sure. Well, cool. Yeah, definitely fits for this, I think. Yes, she does learn some important lessons, and we still see some of the youth as well. I mean, not full maturity, but continuing to journey. Yeah, it's an important part of the journey. Yeah, so, well, I have a summary for you. Fantastic. Please proceed. I tried to do it in IMDB kind of model. Well, yours. Nice, nice. I think that's for the best. All right, in this episode, it's old friends week in Sunnydale. Angel has a chat with Jusilla while Buffy's friend Ford matriculates at Sunnydale High. Or does he place the slayers bestie and friend of a group of vampire wannabes while collaborating with Spike and Jusilla in order to become a vampire himself. Nice and short. Very good. I'm not sure that's possible for me to do, but I will try. OK, so let's just really get into it here. OK, we open with those dangerous merry-go-rounds that I don't think they build anymore. Have you had any experience on such a merry-go-round? Oh, gosh, yeah, I love that thing. We played on it all the time. Oh, my gosh. But boy, you could really get thrown off. Oh, yeah. I mean, angular momentum is real. Oh, my gosh. If you were on that outside and it really got going, I mean, you were going fast. Yeah, I mean, that was the point of the whole thing. Oh, yeah. But now you don't find those in playgrounds anymore because those things were fun. Oh, I don't think so, because you let go from that widest point and you get flung off pretty seriously. And, of course, the very center is the safest place because that isn't very far, you know, you're at the center. Right. But you could get dizzy because you're just spinning around. But, oh, my gosh, yes. And, of course, it would be in a gravel pit or hard-packed dirt or something. So, I mean, you fly off that and you've got a fun landing as well. So, yeah, I could be wrong. You could check me on this, but I do think this is one of those types of equipment like there was one that I used to climb on that was just this wood that was covered in splinters everywhere. You know, these kinds of things are no longer in playgrounds that are all sanitized and perfect and checked for all sorts of safety concerns. No, not in the 70s and 80s. Well, in the 70s, we could, as somebody who really grew up. I mean, because I remember playing on those all the time and my older cousins and my brothers right would really get that thing going fast. Oh, absolutely. No, I am saying that they didn't have the safety checks in the 70s and 80s. That is that is since then. Oh, my gosh. And there was this gigantic ship that had a dragon on the front of it. It was a total metal that would be burning hot in the sun with like a 15 foot drop off if you climbed up the, the dragon in front and fell into the ravine that was next to it. I mean, these, these, these play equipment were death traps. They were so much fun. They were way fun. I'm actually kind of glad I grew up in a time where, I mean, we rode our bikes without helmets. So we played a real road tracks. I mean, I wouldn't recommend that we got trouble for it a lot, but we did it anyways. And, you know, we never had any of those kind of restrictions. I'm kind of glad right we learned lessons. Oh, this thing is hot when you touch it. Okay, we won't play on it right now. Oh, gosh, you know, if you're not holding on tight, you're going to fly off, you know, learning some responsibility kind of stuff. Okay, but that's, I guess, neither here nor there. I didn't, I guess it shows how much I'm at playgrounds nowadays. I didn't know they didn't make those anymore. Yeah, I don't have teeter totters. I, I'm not sure, but teeter totters could be pretty dangerous to somebody jumps off that. Yeah. Well, that was part of the game. Oh, I've been making the other person break their tailbone kind of thing. Absolutely. I mean, I, I'm not sure the last time I've seen a teeter totter. Sometimes when I'm out walking, I'll go buy a playground and I just think, oh my gosh, nothing's higher than six speed or something. You know, I mean, it's, it's very sanitized. But for kids, I, you know, less, less trouble you can get into. But anyway, I, that very go round just totally took me back. And so didn't mean to derail us, but I was excited to see it. Yeah, I remember, yeah, I was going to go back to it, but let's move forward. Yeah, so we see. I'm going to do Zilla in a nice Jane Austen gown. Very much so. What is this kid doing out these parents, even for, even for the 90s. I mean, it is pitch dark. Yeah. And in Sunnydale. Come on already. Yeah, I thought that was pretty a pretty pretty pretty bad for parents to forget their kid. Yes. Yes. And we, Angel saves the kid from Driscilla. And at first I was like, is Angel her, is Angel his, is Angel her brother or the, we learn more about the relationship later, which is terrible. Right. But I was confused. It seemed like they would have shared memories as children or something. But anyway. Yeah, it was interesting. And I, you know, I was watching it this time. And wondering just kind of watching how Driscilla was acting if she had saw Buffy like standing on top of that building and like deliberately moved in a way that made it look like she was kissing Angel. Right. So now I've been wondering about that, which I never thought about before. And I made the note, of course, Buffy's going to think this is something it's not. Right, because she never just asked Angel. She always just makes assumptions. No, or and tries to to make him admit to it, giving him as little information as possible. Like where were you last night? You said we're going to go out last. I mean, I don't like that. No, I didn't like that either, but I think that was very telling of her age. Right. She's really age at that point. So, agreed. So yeah, we got the opening for a nice misunderstanding between people fit Angel and then the credits. Mm hmm. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Okay. Happy to see Miss calendar in this episode. Love it. And once again, calendar seems so normal and Giles seems so awkward. Yeah. She's just so saucy. She is. And she, I love the, and she's just always coming up with the great burn. Giles, how will I know what to wear? Do you have anything else? Perfect. And also true. And very true. I'm glad to see him and tweet a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. But yes, I'm glad to see their dating. Yes, me too. So that's fun. Do you have anything else about their little interaction there? I do not. Okay. This class scene. Once again, Cordelia with a kind of a different take. So I'm glad to see her. I'm glad to see her. She corrects me up so much. This episode has a lot of good banter in it. Mm hmm. And this is one of them. She's commiserating with Marie Antoinette's. She really relates to Marie Antoinette. And I thought Xander was actually pretty clever when she, when Cordelia said depressed and Santa was like, you mean oppressed. It was a sharpest tack. But it was an excellent retort. It was. It was. And I loved her response. Whatever. They were cranky. Yes. Marie Antoinette cared about them. She was going to give them cake. Mm hmm. Oh, which reminded me. I don't remember when I first read this. But that whole debate about whether Marie Antoinette actually said that. Have you read any of that debate? I feel like I've read it's at least somewhat out of context. Mm hmm. If not. Right. Full out. She didn't say it. But it sounds like you've heard more. What have you read? Well, I heard that, or I read that this was actually a saying that had been around for a while. It wasn't. Like something that Marie Antoinette came up with. Mm hmm. This whole let them make cake. Which cake doesn't mean cake like we think about it with frosting and things like that. They really think it was more of a reference to brioche. Mm hmm. Something like brioche, which is more of a bread than a cake. For sure. What some people were saying that. Wow. This has been attributed to Marie Antoinette. It was really propaganda by people that were against the monarchy and specifically. You know, kind of her major detractors and they were just trying to make her look really bad and insight the peasants. Makes sense. Yeah. So it's interesting, but you know, historians debated as historians are want to do. Well, isn't that the truth? Yeah. I was going to check what let them. Oh, sure enough. So I just looked at the French phrase for let them eat cake. Mm hmm. And it has maugeau de la brioche, not gato, which I know is cake in French. And it's exactly what you said. And I've made brioche before and it is a sweeter, richer bread. Right. But it's not cake. Right. Your brioche was very good, by the way. Thank you. They kill have to reprise that, but not during the middle of the heat wave when I don't even want to turn on my oven. Yeah, I think restaurants must really like when the Seattle area gets a heat wave because nobody's cooking. Everybody's eating out. Isn't that the truth? Yeah. All right. So then what's next, a Ford showing up? Yes, Billy Ford. I'm from Henry. Hi, the new guy. Hey, Xander looks real happy about it. Yes. Xander, Xander, Xander. We can count on him to react this way. Yes. Did you recognize the actor playing Ford? You know, he looked so familiar and I brought him up on IMDB, but I wasn't sure why. I didn't track it down. Did you ever see the original Roswell? You know, I think I did the television series. Yes. Yes. I think I did. And maybe that was it. And it was just kind of an in the recesses of my brain. Yeah, his name's Jason Bear and he played like the lead male alien. Okay. In the original Roswell. Okay. Okay. Good to know. And that's the only thing I think I've, I mean, I think I've maybe seen him guest starred in some other stuff. That's what I really remember him from. Mm hmm. A good series. I enjoyed that series. Yeah, I think I did too, though. I'm having a real hard time remembering much about it. It's another Bill Doug's Roman, but this with the twist of aliens. Oh, there you go. Way to bring Bill Doug's Roman back around. By the end of this episode, people should really know what that means. They'll know that term. Yeah. Yeah. And this says one of my favorite scenes. Not just in this episode, but in this season. Yes. When Buffy mentions the Divinal song, I judge myself. Yes. It is not necessarily her saying it. It's Willow. Yeah. That I love. That's what that means. She's loading and takes her quite a bit of time to kind of figure that out. And I, and you can see her trying to puzzle it out. Yes. Over her face is so funny. Yes, it is. And of course, I had to double check and make sure that the time was right for that song. Because I don't, I mean, I remember the song, of course, but I couldn't remember when it was released, but it was 1990. And I didn't realize the Divinals was Australian band. I didn't know that either. Learning something new every day. But I definitely remember the song wasn't a big favorite of mine, but I heard it a lot. Yeah, and it's one of those earworm songs. I mean, the minute it gets in there, it is stuck. Mm hmm. So I am not even going to hum a bar. Yeah. Even though I do. So Ford is really spilling Buffy's secrets as they're playing this pool game. Yes. Kind of like when we were recently in Napa. And Anna brought all of my yearbooks to show you some of those pictures. It was amazing. That was amazing. But yeah, in this scene, we see Angel jealous. Yes. And I was just like, Buffy, come on, just like freaking talk to the man. Don't throw out all of these little things to try to trip him up on stuff. Yeah. Yeah, of course he shouldn't have lied about not going out at all, but agreed. I mean, it is just just say, Hey, I was patrolling and I saw you with some, you know, some woman. What's going on? Yeah. We do get that Angels got cold hands when he shakes Ford's hands. And I was like, I mean, I don't think kissing a vampire would be very satisfying. I mean, you don't want cold lips. Yeah. Cold mouth. Yeah. I mean, that sounds disgusting. It sure does. It sure does. And I just thought, oh, French kissing a vampire would be really nasty. Oh, oh, yes. The warmth is an important factor. Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking shiver me timbers, but in a bad way. I don't know where you were going with that. But if you were connecting it to wood and additional physical intimacy. Wow. Yes. Yeah, that would. Let's not go there. Let's try to keep it. Maybe not. Maybe PG 17 here. Okay. Okay. Okay. Oh gosh. But, but yeah, I was like, come on, Buffy. Come on, Buffy. Don't do this. Mm hmm. But she leaves with board. Yes. And I know we have pointed out stunt doubles before. But this stunt double had like four inches longer hair. Then I mean, it was, it was painfully, I oftentimes stunt doubles for me. I'm not looking that closely, whatever. Right. But this one was so obviously not Buffy. It was pretty painful. Yeah. I wonder what the, what the thinking was. I mean, if the stunt double didn't want to cut her hair, get a different stunt double. And I think it was probably a winner. Yeah. Yeah. Trim that wig up. Yeah. Didn't, didn't spend too much time on detail for that one. No, no, no. But I, one thing I liked about the scene out in the alley, you know, when Ford catches her. Staking at Vamp. I was like, well, here's another example of Buffy's ability to come up with a stellar explanation of what's happening in the heat of the moment. Yes. Note the sarcasm. Yes. Oh my gosh. No doubt. She does not. She does not. But Ford already knows the secret. Ford knows she's the slayer. Ford knows about vampires. Yeah. He's, he's fully abreast of everything going on here. Yes. Yes. And you know, I noticed on a crosswatch that she's not wearing angels cross and she doesn't wear this whole episode. So I wondered if it was, although I didn't really check carefully in the first scene to see if she was wearing it. And the last scene to see if she was wearing it, but she's not wearing it in this in between time at all. Mm. Interesting. You know, kind of representative of her being mad at you. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. And then we're in Willow's bedroom. Where Buffy's phoned in to give Willow the scoop about, about Ford. Yes. Now, are you talking about when, are you talking about her being called? Is this angel in Willow's bedroom or is this just when she's on the phone with Buffy after Buffy gets home that night? Oh, right. I didn't write anything about this scene, but I do remember it. I got you. I'm sorry. I was lost there for a moment. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Okay. Getting. Yes. I mean, there's nothing major about this scene except to illustrate Buffy and Willow are 16 year old girls. Yes. Yes. And continuing to fail the test about two women being able to have a conversation that's not about. Yes. Bechtel test. Bechtel. Exactly. But then we cut to Ford who has not gone home like a good boy should do, which makes me wonder her parents even anywhere in Sunnydale or did he run away from home. It seems like it, doesn't it? I mean, as we find out later, he's not enrolled in the school. This just seems to be his own rogue mission. He's dying. I mean, if he is a wall, his parents must be scared to death. And so, yeah, it's all very strange about how we, how we got so ingrained in this crowd. And there's some puzzling aspects to Ford's whole state of affairs. Yes. That is a very true. Here, though, is where I have my trivia question. Okay. So we have Diego, right? The one that's wearing kind of the cape, the vampire cape that really looks more like the count from Sesame Street than a real vampire. Whoa, man, we do. Exactly. Exactly. What is Diego's real name? Oh crap. Dang it. Right on the tip of my tongue. I don't know. Ford uses it in Diego immediately correct, Sam. Right. Marvin. Marvin. Yeah. And I even had it written down in my notes. Oh my God. Sorry. So I just didn't get down far enough. I'll give you, I'll give you a half point for that since you have, you have documentation. I have documentation. Yeah. I'll just read in my note. I, my note says dumbass and ruffle tuxedo shirt from the 70s and a satin cape or sequin. Some kind of shiny fabric and what magician did he steal that from? The count from Sesame Street. Yeah. One. My trivia question is also from the scene. Oh gosh. Okay. So while, you know, they're, they're, they're talking and then Ford starts to lip sync. Yes. What is something being said in a vampire movie that's playing in the background. I'm tracking. Who is the actor in that movie playing Dracula? I looked this up a little bit because I wanted to see if Jack Polance was ever in a Dracula movie and he sure was. Yes. Jack Polance in Bram Stoker's Dracula. Yep. Yep. Made for TV movie in 1974. Nice. Good one. I knew I recognized him. I was like, Oh my God. I forgot that guy's name. So yeah. Very good. Very good. Thank you. I did look that up because I was like, Oh, that's the city slickers guy. The guy who craps bigger than. I forgot he was in city slickers. That's not what I recognized him from. Well, you know, he was big back in the 60s. Oh, yes. No, the city slickers was late work in his roster. Yeah. Yeah, repertoire. I mean, right on. Nice. Yeah, I just so we had to kind of really dislike Billy in this episode or in the scene. You know, we just like, Oh, yes, board board board. I called him Billy, but yes, let's keep calling him Ford. Okay. Yeah. You're just like, Oh my gosh, this kid. Yes. And we hear the die young and stay pretty line again. That sort of harkened back to the very end of season one. When Buffy said something like I'm still pretty. Or something like that. Oh, nice connection. I didn't make that connection. Oh, thank you. And I don't know if we learned right now that these kids are trying to become vampires, but that's the question I asked myself. Are these kids trying to become vampires? Yeah, I think that is made pretty clear, even though they don't specifically say it at this point. Okay. And now we're back in Willow's room when it shows up. Oh my gosh. This teenage girl. Has a door. Directly to the outside. Yeah. Coming out of her bedroom. Yeah. I mean, talk about the easiest room ever to sneak out. Easier than Buffy's with the nose. So much easier. You just opened the door. I'm like, what they have her in the front room. Where is this room in the house that she just opens the door. But I'm sure she's good. It doesn't sneak out, but. Oh, yeah, I don't think you have to worry about Willow with that. But yeah, normally that would be something you would see. It may be a master or we're not calling a master suites anymore. Are we primary? Or primary? Yep. Oh, owner suite. Okay. Yeah. So. And I mean, when I was in one of the houses I lived in growing up, we had a door in my sister and I, that room that went out into the backyard, but it was, it was just like a door at what I mean, a single door. It wasn't this grand French door. Wow. You and your sister though had just a door that went out to the backyard. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Well, we had our front door was our front door that went into the hallway living room and the back door was like off the family room. All of the bedrooms were upstairs. Well, I think this was originally a family room and they converted it into a bedroom. Not. I mean, the people that owned it before us converted it so that as their family grew. Okay. So yeah, I think that's the only reason it was there. It wasn't the largest bedroom though, which I think is why my sister and I got it instead of my dad and my stepmom taking it for their room with the door outside. Now, I did have a boyfriend who had a window that was very much on kind of the first floor that his bedroom was sunken a little bit. So kind of in the basement, but it had a window out that was kind of low. So it was very easy to climb in and out. Not that I would know. I was going to say, you're not speaking from experience there. It was. Yeah. So I mean, it struck me that it was kind of an elaborate door that you would typically find again in a primary bedroom, but that other than that it didn't really seem to add, I guess, since I had a door in my bedroom. Yeah. Yeah. I can see that. The thing that really struck me odd is that they have that stupid chimpanzee with the symbols as one of the things in the background of her bedroom. And I had to ask myself that things called the jolly chimp, by the way. Okay. I know it. I know of what you speak, but I didn't know its form of name. Yes. And I couldn't help thinking. Did anybody actually really have that thing? I only ever see it. I mean, I don't remember anybody that I knew ever had the jolly chimp. And I only ever see it in TV and movies when they want particularly scary scenes right where a toy starts up by itself. Yes. That is totally. I can't think of what show it is, but that is what I'm totally thinking of. Scary movie where that is the thing moving around. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think they even have it in stranger things. I mean, this stupid jolly chimp has been around forever and horror shows and movies. Yeah. Wow. But again, I remember nobody. I'm not having one. Nope. Definitely not one in my house or any of my friends. Yeah. Oh, well. So Angel wants the queen of the Internet to do some research on Billy Ford. Mm hmm. And that's when we find out that Ford has not actually registered. So something is a foot. Something is majorly a foot. It's like the little, it's a little bit meta in the scene right as angels doing a little self reflection when Willow accuses of him being jealous without accusing him of being jealous. Yeah. I never used to. Things used to be pretty simple. A hundred years, just hanging out feeling guilty. I really honed my brooding skills. Self aware. Self aware in this case. Yes. He's had a lot of time to talk about it or to think about it and not talk about it. He probably didn't talk about it at all until he met the gang. He just brooded about it. I thought his makeup was odd in the scene. His lips looked oddly like, Samini coral color. Mm hmm. That didn't go well with the light color they make up they were using to try to make him look, you know, pale and cold. Yes. Just a station. Yes, it's funny. I just read somewhere that ballerinas never wear red lipstick on stage because it can come off as either orange, or I think blue under the stage lights. And so they never wear red lipstick. And so, you know, maybe my connection here is maybe whatever they were doing to his lips did not react well with the lighting. Oh, wow, that's interesting. I've never heard that before. Yeah, just something I came across. I'm playing brain. I'm like, what the heck was she looking up? I think it was fed to me on something like Instagram or, yeah, I don't think I was looking for this content. I think it somehow got fed to me like 10 things about ballerinas you didn't know. Got it. Got it. Who's the woman that was in black swan and the Star Wars she played Natalie Portman? Yes. And Natalie Portman drew me in. And I think that's why I happened to click on the link. But anyway, anyway. Interesting. So, yeah, Ford is getting very suspicious here. Yeah, he says. I mean, we are getting very suspicious of Ford here. Mm hmm. And we learned their little vampire wannabe club is called the Sunset Club. Yeah. Good choice. I don't know how these underage kids have access to this club. But well, I don't think they're all underage because if you remember, there's a guy in like when Willow and Buffy, not Buffy will Alexander and Angel show up at that club. Uh huh. And they're coming down the stairs. There's a like a coffin and open coffin. Oh, yeah, there's like a middle aged guy in there. Well, that's even creepier, right? That if it's a middle aged. Yeah, that owns this place that they're allowing all of these underage kids to be a part of it. Yeah. Yeah. Strange. Of course. You know, Ford is a senior. So he could be 18. He might be a legal adult now. Well, that's fair. That's fair. But still weird. Still weird. Yes. I did love though. I perhaps the best seat of the show was the guy wearing exactly what Angel was wearing when Angel was like these people don't have any idea what vampires wear. Love that scene. Oh my God. It's so funny. And the look on David Brienne is this piece is priceless. It's so good. Yeah, I rewounded a couple of times again. I think that was my favorite moment of the episode. Yes. And that's when Zander said I love a good die tribe. Oh, I missed that. But sounds right. Yeah. Yeah, that's a great little scene there. But we've jumped ahead. Okay, go ahead. Take us back. Yeah, we're back in school. And you know, he had asked Willow not to tell Buffy anything. And so now we get to see Willow trying not to tell Buffy trying to lie and evade, but not doing a very good job. Yeah. Wow. Talk about somebody who cannot tell a lie. Yes. She's wrote down. She's so happy. Mm hmm. Hello. What's up? Nothing. Do you want to hang? We're cafeteria bound. I'm going to do work in the computer lab on school work that I have. So I cannot hang just now. And Buffy. Okay. Well, that's the only thing I really wanted to say about that because I just think that this is really funny. I'm glad you did. It was an important moment. I just said, Willow can't lie, it seems. Yes. But yes. Yeah. And this is also the scene where Giles finds out that Ford knows that Buffy's a slayer. And the sculptor a little bit. Do you like he already knew? Already knew. I wish they would have explained that. Yes. Like how did Ford know? We never find out. They left a lot about Ford's whole situation unexplained. Yes. Yeah. And clearly it doesn't matter. This is Ford's only episode. So. And I don't know. Do we really need to talk about the scene at the school where Buffy and Ford are out taking their walk. I only think significant about that is that he lies right about killing that vampire. Yes. I think that is the most that what I have written down is what did Ford get out of the vampire which we learned later. Yes. Yes. I think that's the only thing of note and tricks Buffy into thinking he's killed a vampire, but he's really just gotten some information from her. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would be, if I was but that had been really suspect at this time that he killed a vampire on his first time out. Come on. Yeah. Agreed. Oh, well. But then we get to the scene where Xander Willow and Angel. Yes. And Xander's got good lines in the scene when they're before they get in the club and he's like, yeah, I'm not to go a dead boy in this one. And then Angel's like, did you not call me that? I saw Xander. Xander Xander. And then Willow on that tangent about sort thumbs. Oh my gosh. Yes. Have you ever seen it thought. What did she say? Oh, that thumb must be sore or something like that. Yeah. Really sticking out. Yeah. And, and you're not surprised right that Willow has got this in her head. Yes. Did you notice when Angel's up on the balcony? Did you notice he had his nose for up to hands? No. Good catch. He does that a lot. I'm going to have to keep. I'm going to have to have a nice frontal hands watch. Exactly. Exactly. Now my next note isn't until something calendar, something about calendar. So if you've got anything else before we go there, go ahead. I was, I spent quite a bit of time looking at the pictures that were hanging up on the wall of that club. Yes. And I mean, I think the one that, and I don't know if it's actually we see it in this scene or if it's a later scene, but it's one of a guy with like one of those long black wigs that you used to see. I know exactly who you're talking about who might have a big nose or big chin kind of in a long gated face. I definitely had seen that before, but I did not dive any deeper. Did you find out who that was a picture of? I did not. At first I was like, is that King James? And so I looked up some stuff because I know I've seen that picture before and not just from Buffy. I've seen it somewhere. Oh, I have to. And so, but it wasn't him. And I, after about 15, 20 minutes of scrolling through pictures and doing several different types of searches. I was like, I can't do it. I can't go anymore into it. So I did not find out. And then I was wondering if one of the pictures, in particular, there was like a young woman. That was, that was there. And I wondered if that was Elizabeth. Bathory. Okay. You know who that is? No, you probably have heard the story, but she was this remain, or Hungarian noble woman. And between like 15, 90 and 16, 10, I call it her killing period. She would just like kill all these young women and bathe in their blood. Oh my gosh. So I was wondering if maybe because, you know, people of like she was a kind of thing. And so I wondered if one of those portraits or her, but the one I was thinking of was not her. So I was like, okay, that's over to Tory. Just move on. Oh, I wish we did know that. And maybe, yeah, maybe they are all killers or some suspicion of association with vampires or, you know, something like that. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know, but I was like, dang it. I want to know, because it looks so familiar, but oh yeah, it really does. Oh, yeah. Then we're in the library and monster trucks calendar. I love that so much. I don't know. I mean, I guess it is about the biggest possible stretch for Giles, but. It would be definitely would be that's what makes it so funny. Yeah. Wouldn't certainly would not be my first choice either. No, I mean, I used to go to some auto races just at the small local track back home. Oh, I've never been. I like the mini cars, which I think is mentioned in this episode. But I've never liked monster trucks, because these were just like demolition derby kind of things and not right truck. So, and I only did that because of the guy was seen at the time. I would never chosen to do that on my own. But I did, like I said, I found them the mini, the mini cars fun. The things we do. So, on with the show here. Okay. Yes. Oh, you don't bump. He sees that picture of Jerusalem. And Giles is like, oh, you know, she was killed by an angry mob and. Yeah, so this sort of does not jive with what we hear later. Well, you mean, one. Is it this episode where it says like I miss Prague. No, what I mean is, isn't it. Is it's, it's, it's, it's angel that kills her. Well, she's. I mean, I think the point of this is she's not dead at all. Okay. So, so you're saying this is this historical record is incorrect. Yes. Okay. Fully agreed because later we hear that angel killed her after she took her vows at a convent or something. So she wasn't even close to an angry mob. Right. Well, I mean, I think Giles even says in, in this scene that. Jerusalem is a sometimes paramour of a spike. Oh, I thought he said a spike. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is a spike. So, I mean, which tells everybody for sure. We already know, right? But that should tell Buffy that Jerusalem is an angel. Sorry, Jerusalem vampire. Okay. This is really coming together. I was thinking that if she was his paramour alive, then none of angel stories story made sense. But if it was after she was dead, after she's a vampire, that makes sense. And I, but I wonder when her and spike met up or how long she was in Prague because I could have sworn that in an earlier episode. From season one, spike says something like, you know, you've been weak ever since Prague or something. I thought that Prague came in an earlier episode between spike and Dursilla. Yes, for sure it does. And I mean, that she does say at one point, you know, I miss Prague. And it might have been that same episode you're talking about. And he's like, you were almost killed in Prague. Yes. So it's definitely a reference back to that. Okay. Okay. Very good. But I mean, the reason I brought this up was just because I really like Buffy's line about angry mobs. Well, they don't make angry mobs like they used to, because this girl's alive. Yeah, that's good. But yeah, so it brings up, you know, big kind of questions for Buffy. Like, well, why was angel with this girl? Mm hmm. And the other question I had from this scene is when Giles is going to go to his office to get that book and the other vampire. Yes, that's supposedly Ford killed. Yes, he looks as startled as Giles. And I'm like, come on. You're just in his office. You don't hear the two of them chatting. All right. Because Jenny's out there. I'm like, so why are you so surprised? Yes. Jupiter's vampire. Well, not all of them are known for their brains. This is true. This is true. Oh, well. Oh, well. So Ford is even more sus now, because the vampire he supposedly killed is on the run. Mm hmm. Alive and well, so to speak. Oh, undead and well. That should be a t-shirt, undead and well. And then we're back to like in Drew's lair. Yeah. Yeah, Drew. I know you say I will eventually like her. So I'm still waiting for that transformation. I mean, clearly the bird is dead. Is she that dumb? She doesn't realize the bird is not dead. Well, this is the vampire with the large collection of dolls that she talks to. Yeah. You know, we hear later about how Angel says she was so pure and changed. Well, well, maybe she was just a dolt. I mean, what did Angel see? I don't know. I'm trying to stay open, but still not there. Still not there. Well, we'll see. We'll see. I love that one of Spike's mates is Lucius always makes me think of Lucius Malfoy. Oh, Lucius Malfoy. Yeah. Oh, God, I was it. He is the guy actor that plays Lucius Malfoy. Oh, I know exactly what you're talking about. Those eyes. Whoa. Agreed. Okay. Okay. I'm sorry. The final song popped into my head. Oh, my gosh. That here worm is still burrowing. Okay. Move. Not again. But this is what we find out about Ford's evil plan. Oh, my gosh. I know. Eternal life for the slayer. Nice. Yes. Nice. Yeah. Clearly. I mean, it sounds like they were kind of childhood friends. This is awful. Yeah. Sure is. And it brings up, you know, as, as the rest of this episode went on and I was thinking about Ford's actions kind of from more of a philosophical bent is it just instinct, right? Do whatever you can to stay alive. Is that just a basic human instinct? And if that's a basic human instinct, does that make it okay? You know, what's the morality in trying to stay alive, even at the expense of others? I mean, it's self preservation. You know what I started to rationalize it with. Uh huh. He alluded to that it was related to his brain. It sounds like brain cancer. You know, something like this, which seems to run rampant in this show. We had somebody else who was dying of brain cancer, but maybe his cognitive abilities are impaired. Maybe his sense of morality, you know, certainly brain tumors. Yeah. Exactly can cause changes in personality and impulse control. And if he's only months away from death, right, it could be, it could be pretty full on right now. Yeah. Yeah, that could be. I hadn't really thought about that. Yeah, just a thought. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Good thought. Oh, thank you. It gives me a new way to kind of think about it. I mean, not everything could be explained, but maybe this one, we can chalk up to that to the brain tumors. Oh, it's the tumor. There you go. So, okay, cool. Um, and then we're with Angel and Buffy at Buffy's house and there he has come to fess up that he's been looking into forward. And then just asking her if she loves him. Mm hmm. Dude, come on, you've been around the block. This is not the way this is not, it's not cool. Yeah. And I'll tell you what's really not cool is him killing everyone that Dresilla loved. I mean, Angel was really a jerk. Oh, yeah. He was the right man. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So we learned that Angel is the one who made Drew a vampire. Yeah. He's her sire. Yeah. Yeah, but yet it's spike and drew that end up with this really close relationship, but it seems like Angel and Drew have history to. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm trying to bite my tongue. Okay. Because of course I know stuff. You know stuff that's coming. Okay. Let's move on. That tells you stuff right there. So, well, but yeah, I mean, how nasty evil do you have to be. Yeah. You actually turn somebody on the day they take a holy orders. And that's the day a demon sets up shop in her body. Tara. Talk about irony. Yeah. But, but I think that's, that's important history about Angel and about how bad he was. Right. So the one thing I was looking at or not looking at thinking about as this scene ended, you know, because suddenly we're like outside. Like outside looking in at Angel and Buffy in the dining room. Right. It's trying to figure out why change to the shot right so they're friends. It's nighttime. So the edges are dark and it's very bright but muted by the, the sheer curtain. That's up. And I was trying to figure out why that particular cinematic choice shall we say. It's supposed to be conveying something. Not sure I actually got it. Something about their relationship. Hmm. Maybe interesting. Is, is cloudy? I don't know. I don't know. But the framing of that, I was like, that's very odd. In this scene. Ha. And you don't think it was trying to convey somebody looking in at them. No. I don't think so because a lot of times with that, particularly in this show, you'll see. You know, maybe just like a little shake or something. Like people are looking through something to make it look like somebody's moving and looking in spine. But I didn't get that. I didn't get that feel with this particular scene that somebody was outside watching them. Okay. Because it was too close up to the window. I mean, you could see, of course, the frames of the window. But if it was a POV from a person standing outside, I mean, that person would have been right at the freaking nose on the window pane. Yeah. So I don't think it was that. Got it. Anyways, it's just something that puzzled me. And I was, I'm like, what is the director, which is weed in trying to convey this particular shot. And it escapes me. So maybe somebody out there has a good explanation for it. But interesting. Yeah. Okay. We can move on. Okay. And we're back at the club. The sunset. Yes. Oh, we find out the blonde. Chant chanterelle, which I believe is a mushroom. It is a mushroom. Which is kind of vampire appropriate. A mushroom could be a vampire kind of. Vegetable, fungy, whatever fun guy. Fungas. Because thrives in the dark. Yeah. Yeah, on dead stuff. Yeah, but vampires don't thrive on dead stuff. So. But they do hang out in the dark. They do. They do. I think I'm giving Chanterelle too much credit for this. I think you are too. Okay. Okay. Based on how we've seen her act through this entire. Maybe she was kind of going for Chantilly or something and messed up. Yeah, that could be. That could be. But I mean, she kind of comes across as a ditz through the whole episode. Lonely. She does. She does. She's a little drizzilla like, you know, maybe you would also think of her as sort of. Innocent and whatever, but kind of adult. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. That part. Yeah. Maybe, maybe, maybe. But you know, Buffy shows up and everybody gets locked in to this basement club. Yes. Yes. I don't know how soon this is, but the all you can eat more on bar line was pretty good. Yeah, I wrote that down to. Buffy. I can just friends are going to be picking out at the all you can eat more on bar. Yeah. This is a course after Chanterelle has said that they're all going to ascend. Oh, yes, she has her whole. She has drunk the Kool-Aid for sure. Oh, yeah. You know, that wasn't really Kool-Aid, right? At Jim. Is it. Jones down. Jones down. Yeah. That's right. It was pretty upset that that phrase got stuck on to his stuff. It wasn't really Kool-Aid. It was some generic powdered drink. Oh, okay. I actually saw a mini series or a movie about that a long time ago. Yeah. I can't remember if it was, if they called it Kool-Aid or not, but it definitely seemed like a drink that was not a natural color. Oh, yeah. For sure. For sure. It looks like cool. I mean, it's like, like a generic powder drink, right? But just for all intents and purposes. Yeah. It's just a brand Kool-Aid. Yeah. Yeah. But that's kind of like Kleenex. Yes. I mean, or Xerox copy. Right. Right. We use brand name to refer to everything. Like all crayons. You know, there's Crayola's. Yes. Even though they're not all Crayola's is that kind of thing. Sorry. When you said that, I was actually like, well, yeah. Just had to throw that. Sure. Sure. I mean, it's where it comes from. Yeah. When I teach my religion class, my students have to watch documentary about Jones down. So anyways, that's neither here nor there and not relevant to the current discussion. Because of course, we never do tangents. No, and never. We stay directly in the stream the whole time. We are laser focused. That's right. That's right. So here's where we get Ford's backstory about why he's doing all this. And he really does have a fantasy drama going on in his head. We didn't talk about it, but way back when he first saw Spike and he's like, aren't you going to give me 30 seconds? You know, he's really, really delusional. Oh, he sure is. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, he's trying to use that to play on Buffy's sympathy. And just his actions. But, but I thought, you know, and here's, you know, a very grown up moment for Buffy, right? She's like, you have a choice. You don't have a good choice, but you have a choice. And I was like, right on Buffy, sometimes she pulls off the wisdom. Sometimes she does. And then a lot of times she doesn't. But this, of course, is where I kind of paused it and was having that little bit of a philosophical debate with myself. You know, self preservation at any cost. Justifiable. Yes. But I did wonder how, I mean, maybe the slayer has an enhanced hearing. But how did Buffy hear the vampires pull up from outside through three feet of concrete? Because right, you know, they mentioned earlier that there's three feet of concrete and there she ain't getting out of there. But we hear the vampires pull up through the less. Yes. Buffy, this, this is not the mothership people. It's hard to reconvenced the deluded. Yeah. Yeah. That's for sure. Now, so do we have any background? Okay. Yes, we do. Because it is so smart for Buffy to go after Dersilla. Right. Oh, yeah. Because any other vampire and Spike wouldn't have cared, but queuing in on the fact, sometimes paramour. Now, hopefully they're in an on again stage or theirs relationship. Right. Not enough again. Right. But this makes Spike, she did the one possible thing. That would stop Spike would be to threaten Dersilla's on deadness. Yeah. And again, we see Buffy in the heat of battle. Man, her every gray cell is firing in that young woman's brain. Right. And because she has instantly kind of analyzed what's going on and come up with the solution. Unlike when she gets surprised when people find her and like, right. Yes. There was this cat and there was this other cat. Yeah. That's, but yeah. Very smart to go for Drew. Mm hmm. So. And yeah, that's how she, she says everybody, you let everyone out or your girlfriend fits in an ashtray. Fantastic. Oh, Buffy Buffy Buffy. Smart thinking. Yeah. Kind of throws Drew at Spike and. It's a heck out. Yep. She leaves Ford behind and just as Buffy suspected they went ahead and killed Ford, though. I don't know. At the end, right. Mm hmm. Ford pops out of his grave as a vampire. Right. So. I didn't think that could happen unless he did drink some vampire blood. Then I don't exactly know why the delayed reaction. So I was a little confused about that. What do you mean delayed reaction? That he's had enough time to be buried in a grave and has not regained consciousness as a vampire and gotten up and walked away. Well, you know, this series plays with that frame frame. I mean, some people, it seems almost instantaneous. Yes. And in other episodes like this one, right, it's three, four days later when they come up out of their grave. So that's really fluid in this episode and not this episode, this series. Well, then Buffy should really take note because that's important information to have. Right. If one thinks that, I mean, convenient timing that she just happened to be there when he busted out. Right. And it seems as if Spike did honor his end of the deal and gave, gave Ford some blood. It's just that Buffy was there to end him. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if, because I'm thinking back to episode or season one with the, the one vampire with the pork and beans. Oh, yes. You know, he turned really fast, relatively speaking. Yes. And, you know, here Ford didn't. I saw, I wonder if, if we were like trying to justify this or the writers are trying to justify it. They're like, well, you know, there's something about some people's genetics that turns them fast. So if Buffy knows somebody hasn't turned fast, then she knows to go to the grave. I don't know. Perhaps. Perhaps. Perhaps. But, you know, and again, the end of this really is, you know, I'm one of those scenes or the scene where, you know, Buffy has one of her grown up moments. Yeah. Figuring out things are not simple. Life is complicated. And we finally see where the title is from. Yes. Yes. What do you want me to say? Lie to me. Yeah. Good episode. Yes. I mean, other than what Ford wasn't registered. Did he just run away? Where are his parents? Yeah. Not a Ford back story we're missing here. Exactly. Exactly. But yes, I enjoyed it. It's, again, it was not my favorite of the season, but it's important for what is for Buffy. And she grows up here. And, and, you know, we get some history about Angel, which is a little important as well. So the angel spiked Ursilla triangle, which I'm going to start calling a triangle. There we go. So I think we've got enough evidence that clearly, I mean, obviously Angel was obsessed with her while she was alive. So what, what's happened since he turned her into a vampire will hopefully be explained a little bit more. But we know there is a connection there. And clearly, I mean, she was flirting with them. She was. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No question about that. Well, excellent. What's, do you happen to know what our next episode is? I do. Episode eight is called the dark age. Okay. Which for this series gives absolutely nothing away. Yeah. Oh, I will look forward to it. All right. So I guess the only thing left to do is say bye. Thanks for listening, everybody. Wallowing in the shallows is created and produced by the both of us, edited by Mo. The soundtrack for the Wallowing in the Shallows, Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season 2 Rewatch, is Apache Rock Instrumental by soundetelier. Available on gemento.com. You can send us feedback at wits.tv.com at gemento.com. That's W-I-T-S-T-V-P-O-D at Gemento.com. Subscribe. And subscribe. And subscribe. Subscribe. Hit that subscribe button.