I'm joined by Joshua Sanabria CEO of Go Architect Joshua. How are you today? Doing well. Thanks for having me. Awesome. Can you please start with what exactly is Go Architect? Yeah. So Go Architect is a urban planning and technology company. So we started in 2018 and basically we work with a lot of school districts and a lot of kind of government offices to help them do planning of facilities, capital expenditures, all that kind of stuff where hopefully we are making cities and schools and things like that better. So we have worked with projects that add up to the billions. That's cool. For example, with a school district that has 20 schools, you can imagine how many buildings and things like that are at each of those schools. So we work with some big data, so to speak, on the finance and enrollment and data around all the students and facilities and things like that. So yeah, it gets big pretty fast, but I wish we were worth billions though. Great. Yeah, right. And so another question I have is, are you venture capitalist funded? Are you just privately owned? I just want to just find out a little bit more about that. Yeah, no venture funding. Basically, I worked in some corporate architecture firms and then got involved with this world and was also doing software programming, things like that. And just one thing led to another and 2018 was the right time to try to go out on our own. And so took a leap. Very fortunately, one of the companies I used to work for actually became our client. So yeah, no venture funding, all bootstrapped, ground up, old fashion. I commend you. You know, you don't hear that, right? And that's exactly how I started. I am, if I don't make money, I don't eat, right? There isn't somebody I can call and just get, oh yeah, can I just get more money and blah, blah, blah. And that's always what I've always thought was the, was Achilles heel of venture capitalists, because the problem with that is, you don't get rated on if you get enough money. It's almost like you just grow and grow and grow, and there's these benchmarks you have, but they are not profitable related, right? It's almost like you go to the next series, you go to the next series, and you go to the next series, and you know, ABC funding, and you go to keep going down the alphabet. But the problem is, profitability isn't necessarily one of the key performance indicators. So I commend you being a startup that's actually doing that, and that's actually, you know, working with small governments, et cetera, or government in general. So you started in, that's pre-COVID, it sounds like. Yeah, you know, actually it was fine. I think there was a couple of things. So for one, our clients, like I said, are mostly school districts, and we'll just say government as a general entity, and government pretty much just kept going. You know, people still need to go to school, even if they're not physically in the building, they are, those buildings still exist, and of course it was actually a good time for people to be planning ahead because the buildings were emptier or empty entirely. And so it was a good time to plan ahead, which is literally what we do is planning for like the next 10, 20 years of developments at different, you know, campuses. So that was pretty much smooth. And then on a kind of experimental side, so the business has also, go architect has also tried a few different things. We tried like publishing books, we tried producing online classes. So 2020 was actually a very productive year because we were just at home doing stuff, trying things out, not necessarily getting distracted by regular life. So yeah, actually 2020 was pretty productive, maybe a little boring in a social and personal sense, but from a work sense, it was fine actually, it was great. Got it, got it. So let's take a step back in terms of the startup here, right? And really it's awesome, you're still continuing this journey. Most businesses, let's be honest, just don't make it past that first year, let alone the second year. But one thing I've noticed is there was a phrase, I should actually know this phrase, it's with comedians and for all things comedians. And what's it called? It's a weird name, but it's basically if you're a comedian and you're in your networking, you're doing gigs for, let's say six months, maybe three months, I say three months, you're networking, you're networking, then if you can make it to that three month period, you can make it to six months, right? If you make it to six months, you can make it to a year. And in that whole time, you're networking, you're networking, you're fostering those leads, you're going to different bars, you're going to different whatever clubs like Jay Leno or something like that. And then if you make it that first year, make it the second year, make it two years, you make it four years, right? And that's kind of seems as what you did. And that's kind of what I did. Because I started, I was I'm definitely post pandemic, that's for sure. Going is as almost like a survival or leads, actually, that's where I'm going is leads. So I imagine something like this is a extremely long tail lead, right? I would say you're longer than real estate, like you're actually more than like corporate real stadium. And so how is, how do you define that lead process? And how do you, how do you seed it? How do you bring those leads in? Because you're talking about, like you said, right? Decades ahead of, you know, player planning and decades. Well, I mean, in general, architecture, just as the industry has a longer lead time, people don't necessarily just wake up and decide to build something. So I think you just have to kind of be used to it in general. From a go architect sense, we do have to balance the long and the short term. So we have a lot of other firms and offices that we partner with. And a lot of times, we are partners on a project rather than us being the solo entity or solo, you know, contractor or something. We're part of a team already. So it's less, it's been less about trying to go out and find every single potential company. And it's been more about developing good partnerships with other larger firms who have better brand power, more people, better political connections, things like that. So I would say it's more about partnership. And then to kind of go along with that, we also design software. So one of the things that we just created is an app called Engage, which we can get into a little bit later, but Engage is a tool that came out of issues that we've noticed with projects and now Engage is a standalone product, a SaaS product where people can, you know, sign up and have a month to month or year subscription. So that's kind of the immediate income. While we also have these long term partnerships and projects and things like that, that take, you know, multiple years to finish or last at least for multiple years. Texas is a tough nut right now, right? It's a, it's a, it's a critical right now in general. You know, and I think, you know, I think when the money was phoned, and that's actually where I was talking about earlier, venture funds, stuff like this, it's great to see it and to fund something like that, you are not, you're not your capitalist. So I mean, this is just a cool model here. So that's why I'm very excited about this because how on earth do you fund and like, that's just amazing because you have, you have your core business, right? You have your long term business, you have your tech business, but you fund, you built this tech, you built this tech. How did you get from that loss leader from just dumping all this money into an into tech to making it profitable so much that you can, you can make money off and off the short run. Because that's my friend. That's magic. I don't see you going. I mean, I'm sure you've been a Silicon Valley. I'm sure you've had those conversations, but how did you make it happen without venture capitalist money? That's amazing. That's amazing. Well, I think what helps is that it's a product that we knew that we had a need for. So we made it to very literally solve the issues that we were already facing. So for example, with the school district projects, we do a lot of community outreach. And that can mean like old school way is you set up a meeting with all of the teachers and parents out of school, you drive out there, you print boards or have a PowerPoint or something on the screen, and you physically in person do these community meetings. Now, maybe you can do like a Google Forms type of thing where you just send them a survey, but you miss out on a lot of the tactile aspects of community engagement. So for example, doing like sticky notes, where you can like place the sticky notes on a board, that's not really possible with any or wasn't possible with any tool. So we wanted to create something that took that in-person tactile feedback format of sticky notes, for example, and digitized it. And so because we knew that we could use that tool for projects, we could justify saying, okay, we're going to dedicate a couple thousand dollars a month for hiring a developer and making this happen, pitching it back to our existing partners and clients and saying, hey, this tool can save you money, because we no longer have to go in person and do all these meetings, we can subsidize it with this application. So it was kind of a thing where we saw the need. Fortunately, the long-term business is doing well. And so we physically had the money to hire developers and things like that to make the app. And then it helps that I also have app making experience. So I'm part of that engineering team. And then, you know, just to be frank, right, that engage does not break even on its own. Right now, it still serves the planning side of the business, the old school side of the business. But I could see a path where it does. And that's where we are right now, trying to get it out into the world beyond just the immediate clients that we have. Absolutely. No, I think, but the fact, the fact, when I think of an application, when I think of a SaaS product, I think of a, man, I just think of a black pole, right? And it goes and it goes and it goes, right? The fact even, I mean, whether or not, whether or not it's making a tremendous profit, some profit, or it's still under, it's okay. Because I think there's a couple things. You're able to take that product and keep it as part of your value propositions when you go to clients. Right? Yeah. So therefore, when you're going to these clients and you're saying, you know, we have this vision, we do this planning process, we want to plan out all these series of buildings in this location. We also have this amazing tech that we integrate with, you know, that puts with this whole process on steroids that, I mean, that's just the value prop you're able to inject into the process that you're able to sneak the sale, right? I hate this. I hate to say it like that. I cannot say it. I mean, being a, me being a CEO, I mean, that's, I didn't sell before this, but I sure now. So it's, so I think any CEO understands that part. So in effect, I mean, it is contributing to your bottom line. There's, there's no doubt about that in my, in my opinion. And I mean, I've dabbled with stuff like that. The problem with, with my, you know, with my industry, it's, it's all been done. Paid search and social. There's, there's sprout. There's, I can literally name off a trillion apps that are out there right now. Big space. Yeah. Yeah. So, so now, let's, let's kind of, let's, let's kind of dial it back even more a bit. So you're talking about B2B, right? And B2B is a, it's, it's definitely far different than D2C. Here is a qualifications when you go and look for a partnership or look to make a bid, right? Now with this, with these government entities, is it bidding or do you go with, do you partner with these architecture firms and then they have, just can you explain that? So it depends what the entity is. You know, if you work, like I live in Chicago, if you want to go and work with the city of Chicago, they have a online directory of all the projects that are being put out for bid in all kinds of departments. You could, it could literally be, you know, mowing the graphs in a particular park and being a contractor for landscaping all the way to designing a, you know, new building or whatever. So you can look at those directories and, you know, bid or apply to bid for those projects with school districts, kind of similar. They put out an RFP or request for a proposal, and then you would respond to that RFP. So it's relatively democratic, let's say, everyone who pays attention or at least is looking for it, should know that the job exists or that the project exists. Now, of course, you have to submit your proposal to that RFP and they obviously have certain requirements, but yeah, it's a pretty democratic process. In our case, we, like I said before, we work a lot with partners who are also on that proposal. So whereby no means the only name on there, and that does a lot of things, you know, a lot of times projects are complicated. So we're only working on one section of the project, but there are other people that do other things. So really, the partnerships is a, it's not only an important part, it's an essential part. We wouldn't even be qualified to go after the entire project without the partners. And that, you know, that applies to the master planning projects, and then in a way it trickles down to the software. Now, technically, anyone can use engage, but at least right now it's mostly used by people that work on similar projects as we do. Nice. And that takes us to, it kind of takes me to something else as well, right? And that's, that's like your product differentiation, right? So, like, let's take me. So my bread and butter, my superpower is paid search and social. That's what I do all day long. And am I a creative guy? I, little, I'm not really, you know, am I a SEO guy, a search engine optimization? A little, not really. But one thing I noticed is there's only so many jobs I can get with paid search and social, right? Or one thing that happens that really is something that any CEO or any founder will know, whether they, they're a company of one or a company of five like me or a larger company like you, is that, you know, eventually you start, you start hearing, you know, your clients saying, well, do you offer SEO, do you offer creative, do you offer email marketing? Do you offer, do you offer something else? You know, and then you're like, well, no. And then they're like, well, okay, you know, and then, and then you kind of give that opening to someone else, right? And they're like, well, I know this friend that does it and you just hope that friend doesn't steal your business, right? And, or, or, you know, because you actually want to refer it because you don't want, you know, this client to go out the door with some kind of larger partnership. So the one thing we've, I mean, this last, I'd say 12 months is open it up to exactly those different disciplines, right. So we now offer SEO, we now offer email marketing, we now offer site optimization, site design, both front end and back end. So I guess my question is, right, like, I know you feel this amazing niche and you're able to really own it, right? You're able to kind of speak to or network yourself, obviously, because you've been in architecture circles and you're right, you know architecture, have you ever thought about opening it up to say steel erection services or drafting, going down those different areas? And I don't know your industry, you're on a far more than me, but has that something that's come up? I'm sure it has. Just curious. Yeah, you know, it's, there's a couple of things that might prevent you from just doing anything. You know, for example, we would not be qualified to be an engineering firm because we don't have any licensed engineers, for example. So there are some legal barriers that provide guidance. Now within different paths, you know, you can say, well, okay, I'm a licensed, you know, let's say I'm a licensed architect, but I've only worked on houses. Well, you're probably not going to be hired to build a hospital, even though you're technically licensed for the same thing, there's not going to be, you're unlikely to find somebody that trusts you to build a skyscraper or a hospital or something if you've only worked on houses. So it kind of functions as practical barriers, even though there's no legal barriers, because, you know, the level of entry is high. So in our case, what we've been doing is we have this niche, there are maybe some legal and just practical protections around this niche, but we want to try to benefit everyone within that. And, you know, government and education in the United States is a massive, massive industry and business and it changes from state to state and it changes sometimes from zip code to zip code. So even if you theoretically have done the same project in California, it may not be the same procedure in Texas, for example, because they just have different laws. So I think to a certain extent that has kept us kind of naturally confined, where we can own something, and then within that, there's a lot to be done. So, for example, like the community outreach part, you know, a traditional architecture firm may not really do community outreach in general. They may just do the drafting and the design and the, you know, city planning or the city submittals, but they don't necessarily always have the people, the expertise to go out and do community engagement. But meanwhile, that is something that we offer, and then we even leveled up on that by creating software to make, you know, community engagement even better. So it's kind of like there's enough room within the area that we work with, where you can explore a lot. And there are even other options that we don't touch. For example, we don't do anything with finance, but like a theoretical future iteration could be that we partner with banks to help organizations do bond fundraising and raise money. Like, that's a theoretical avenue that we can go into if maybe we hired some extra people and really pursued it. Does that kind of answer your question? Yeah, no, no. I think that's a great answer, because what I think you're saying here is, is there are so many different subnitches within this that you've really haven't maxed out, right? Like you've really... So you're still... Yeah, exactly. So that's actually amazing. And what I think is really cool is you've probably, you know, like you said, you've identified certain sectors that maybe long term down the road you may go after, but the fact you haven't nitched out, right? You haven't capped, right? You're still not fully saturated. That's awesome. And then what I love about this is, is the fact that you've identified these markers, you've identified these niches, but once you identify all those niches, right? And all these different... You've mastered community management, you've done all these things that you're going to be the... Like, you're going to be it, right? Like, I imagine once you fill all that out, I... Now, are there other people doing the same thing? I don't know. I'm not in your niche, or you're not in your sector. I know Brad Pitt's a big, big architecture guy. I do know that. So, yeah, he's big into it. He actually designed some stuff in Los Felis, which is in Hollywood by me. The fact that you've really identified these different silos and have not... You've totally said... Like, I like what you said, we haven't maxed out there. I think is great. And I think once you do, yeah, eventually you will. If you're as smart as you are, I think you're going to be the leader in that particular space. That's what I imagine is the long-term goal, right? Hopefully. Yeah. So, the next question, let's talk about... So, we identified the process. We identified certain other angles of the business. We have identified longevity. Let's talk about competitors, right? So, in regards to competitors, how have you handled that? Because government contracts... Those are huge right now, right? And a down economy. That's where people look to, right? They're looking to these larger government contracts, these awesome relationships. How do you do... Okay, so, if I'm an architectural firm, I'm sure I've semi-heard of you, right? Because like you said, it's a certain niche. How do you do that amazing outreach to say, we want to partner with you? Like, what's that process like? Yeah. You know, I think the first thing is that we don't really compete with anyone. So, in a sense that I'm not trying to overtly compete with any particular group or firm. We've structured our partnerships in a way where we are part of a team that applies to the project. And every member on that team plays a particular role. And maybe there's some overlap here and there occasionally, but in general, everyone has a particular role. And so, we are, you know, we are not alone. It's not like I only have one option and the only option is if I win the project. So, you know, there's kind of that benefit in that we are focused on partnership rather than projects, if that makes sense. And then, you know, from a long-term standpoint, if our competitors, or let's say every other firm that, you know, does community outreach, saw the value in Engage and started to use it and they use it on projects that they won and we didn't, even that would make me happy, right? Because we're basically trying to be as informative and helpful and active in our area as possible. And so, I don't know if most firms have heard of this. There is a good chance, especially as we kind of go through the cycles and we're now working on our 20th plan, master plan. So, that's a pretty decent number where people may have come across our work and, you know, we put our logo in the bottom right of all the online assets that we create, for example. So, it's conceivable. But I think long-term, you know, I want people to use the tools that we make, whether they work with us directly or not, and then from a consulting service side, I want to partner with as many people as possible. Because, you know, have you ever heard of the concept of like, blue ocean, red ocean? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, competition. Can you explain it real quick? I'm sorry, would you mind just highlighting it real quick? Go ahead. Yeah, so, the loose concept is that competition is actually bad because the more you are competing with somebody, you are in many likelihood, you are driving but down the price as part of your competition or you're maybe driving down the quality to compete. But you're creating this red ocean or a lot of blood in the water where you are killing each other's products to gain the customer. But in a blue ocean, there is enough space where there's enough kind of room in your market where you can define your product differently, where you really aren't competing with anyone directly. You are enjoying the space of your ocean or your market. And so, that's what we've tried to do. We're not competing with other architecture firms on new buildings. We're not trying to outbid people. We are literally just trying to partner with as many people as possible and create the tools that as many of those potential partners can use. You know what? I think that is brilliant because that's one thing. If you had to take my total pie of clients, half of them, half of them are partnering with larger agencies right now. They just have the clients. They have the larger clients. And they're like, "Hey, I offer all these other services," or "I do TV buying, but I don't have a digital component. I have a page search and social component." And they somehow either through the power of this YouTube channel or the power of the forums or whatever it is, somehow I just get these random RFPs on Upwork 2. I'm on Upwork as well. And just randomly, I just get, I think more or less it's this channel, but I just randomly just get these referrals. I would say it's even more than that. I'd say it's probably 60% of my business is partnership. So, I think the fact that a lot of people think about what I do, they're like, "Okay, so you just go after clients all day. You just go after clients, go after clients." Yeah, of course I do. I mean, that's exactly the name of the game. But the other game is really, like you just said, networking, trying to help, really trying to help other larger businesses, fulfill that gap, partnering with them, making sure that my added value becomes a larger added value for them that they're able to offer my services. And that's been very fruitful. That's been very, very fruitful. Any other things you want to say about Go Architect that we haven't touched on? Well, you know, we did, we are trying to get the word out about Engage. So, it is free to use. People can sign up. It's EngagedByGoGO.com. People can check it out, do some sticky note surveys, see how it works. But yeah, thanks for having me on. Absolutely. I'll include the link below. Thank you, everybody, for joining this amazing conversation. Thank you, Joshua, for attending. I know you guys are hosting the Democratic Convention very soon. I think it's this month, actually, in July. We'll see what happens. So, thank you for joining us. And thank you, everybody, for listening. Yeah, it's great to meet you.
