Bloody Bizarre
Episode 82 - The Idaho Student Murders - Part Two
(soft music) - Welcome back to the Bloody bizarre podcast. Thank you for tuning in to part two of the Idaho student murders. We'll pick up where we left off last fortnight, which was a bit of evidence against the arrested. So thank you, enjoy. So based on his car, his phone records and his DNA, the probable cause affidavit was signed, and Brian Koeberger was arrested while at his parents' home in Pennsylvania for a holiday. He was arrested on suspicion of burglary and for four counts of first degree murder, which in Idaho could result in the death penalty. - Right. - Of note here, and something to remember for a little later, Koeberger had driven to his parents' place in Pennsylvania. And for those who don't know American geography that well, Washington and Pennsylvania are on completely different sides of the country. It would take days to drive. It would have made much more sense to fly. - Okay. - Just keep that in mind. - Yep. - 'Cause I'm gonna come back to it. - Okay. - So before the arrest, is this still interesting, like the sound I'm telling you? - Yes. - Like it is so involved. I think you can understand why I'm so like into this case. - Yes, yes. - Before the arrest, investigators monitored Koeberger outside of his parents' Pennsylvania home. He was allegedly seen multiple times wearing surgical gloves and observed putting trash bags inside of the garbage can of a neighbor. The items that were obtained were sent to the Idaho State Lab for testing. Authorities also said Koeberger had, quote, "claimed his car inside and outside, not missing an inch." According to authorities, a search of the home where Koeberger was arrested revealed a knife, a pistol, a black face mask, as well as ID cards inside a glove, inside a box. - Right. - Was he ex-military? - I don't think he was. - Okay, so he just had a military-issued knife. - Well, so you can buy those knives anyway. - Oh, okay. All right. - And I also don't know what his dad's background is. - All right. - Again, huh? - All mums. - Yeah, true, sex is me. Again, I think this is something that's gonna come out in the trial. The probable cause affidavit is so scant in his details but it is so telling as well. - Yeah. - It's crazy. So Koeberger was taken into custody by an FBI SWAT team and Pennsylvania State Police on December 30th at the home of his parents in Monroe County, Pennsylvania. As I said, the arresting team swarmed the residents at about 3 a.m. Shattering windows and breaking in the door. Someone said, I think it was the red-handed, I think it was Saruti of the red-handed podcast. She said that it's poetic, that the cert team, that's the special emergency response team, was surprising Brian around the same time. Six weeks early, he was-- - I was gonna say, like if they'd gone in at like 4 a.m. - Yeah, poetic justice. - Yeah. - At the time of his arrest, authorities allegedly found Koeberger in the kitchen, dressed in a shirt and sure what's while wearing an examination gloves and putting trash into separate zip lock baggies. - What the fuck? Why? - Well, potentially he was getting rid of evidence. - But was it evidence? - Who knows, we don't know. So much is gonna come out in the trial. - God, definitely gonna need another episode, yeah. The same day as his arrest, his apartment in Washington was searched as well and they seized a number of items, including gloves, computers, a book with underlining. I don't know why that was mentioned, but obviously there was some relevance to that. Face masks, items with reddish brown stains. Animal hairs. - So the dog, assuming. - Yeah, because it's noted that Koeberger doesn't have a pet. Before the arrest was made public, the police were really ripped by the media and the families of the murdered. Now, the families of the murdered, I don't blame them, they're grieving, they're gonna be fucking out of their mind. I don't blame them at all for yelling at anyone. But the media and the kind of armchair sleuths really ripped the place of this. Now, we know that these kinds of crimes are the most difficult to solve. The ones where there's no connection between the murder and the victim, victims in this case. And let's not forget, they figured this out pretty quickly. They worked very quickly, a little over a month. - And also, just gonna say that they don't owe it to release any information to the media. - No. - Particularly if they think that it could harm the case. - Yeah. - In any way. So for the media, like I'm all for jumping on the cops if it's, you know, like a case like Joanne Romain-Maturk where it's like, obviously fucked up and like. - I love that we remember her name so easily. - Yeah, because it was just insanely. - That's a case, if you haven't listened to that episode, go back and listen to that one. It's an episode of our podcast that's so angry. But when it's something that is still unfolding, just give them a minute to do their jobs. - Give like some breathing space. - Yeah, fucking hell. - They're trying. - They're trying. And as I said, they did some really just fucking good police work. And they found this guy very quickly. And they also called him the FBI, immediately. - Credit where credit's due. - A preliminary hearing where prosecutors had to show a judge that there is enough evidence to justify moving forward with charges of burglary and flu cancer murder was previously scheduled for 26 June this year. But on 16 May, this year, a grand jury indicted Mr. Crowburger on the same charges, effectively rerouting the case, directly to the state's felony court, allowing the prosecutors to skip the preliminary hearing process. So essentially what happened, and this can happen, is there is a process whereby a person is entitled to a preliminary hearing where the prosecutors are required to show a judge that there is enough evidence to arrest this person. Now, that can be, and essentially that allows the trial to move forward. That can be circumvented by a grand jury, which is a jury of like, it's like 17 people or something like that. And those people are showing the evidence, and they can essentially decide that there's enough evidence to indict that person on those charges. And it's circumfence that judge. - The preliminary hearing. - The preliminary hearing, yeah. - So if it's like, yeah, obviously. - Obviously, yeah. - And so that's what happened. - Okay, yeah. Because their evidence is good. So each murder count states that he did, quote, "willfully, unlawfully, deliberately, "with premeditation and with malice of forethought, "kill and murder," end quote. Each of the victims by stabbing. - Right. There's more legal stuff here that I'm just leaving out because in the interest of time, but if you're interested, I would recommend deep diving into this case because it is interesting. On 22nd May, Mr. Kruehberger refused to enter a plea in Lutter County District Court with his attorney saying that he was, quote, "standing silent" on the charges. And essentially what that means is a not guilty plea. The response then prompted the judge to enter a not guilty plea on behalf of Mr. Kruehberger, set in the stage for a trial which is currently set for June 2025. - That's ages away. Why? - 'Cause there's so much evidence? - No, so in the American criminal justice system and in our criminal justice system, people are afforded the right to a speedy trial. Mr. Kruehberger waved that right. I don't know why. - I suppose if he thinks he's up for the death penalty, maybe it's... - Well, but he's currently in, he's in prison at the moment, he's in remand. - Yeah, but he's buying himself more years alive, isn't he? - Yeah, but he could take a plea deal and avoid the death penalty. Anyway, I'll keep going. I'm not gonna go into any further trial specifics because I'll cover that all on the update. For now, all we need to know is that Kruehberger has pleaded not guilty, but the prosecution is currently seeking the death penalty. What often happens in these death penalty cases is that the accused will agree to a plea deal to get the death penalty taken off the table, but we'll see if that happens and there's plenty of time for things to happen and what I am concerned about, concerned is the wrong word because I think what could happen is that Kruehberger could agree to a plea deal to avoid a trial and avoid the death penalty and we won't hear what happened. - Right. - And the, you know, disappointed is the wrong word because that's just me wanting to know the details. - Yeah. - If it would save the families the horror of a trial. - Having to, having to relive it. - And in a public space, I guess. - Exactly. And the surviving roommates having to testify. - Yeah. - So yeah. - So for the remaining victims, that's probably a good thing, yeah. - So there are other theories online about who could be involved and whether or not they think Brian is the right suspect, but I feel it would be irresponsible to be throwing out other names that the police are not pursuing. - Yeah. - One of the people of the internet thought was linked with Kruehberger, actually recently died in a shootout with police so he's not able to defend himself so I'm not going to mention his name. - I personally do think Kruehberger is solely responsible. - It sounds like it. - It sounds like they've got pretty solid evidence. - Yeah, this guy that like the internet likes for it, apparently he had some contact with Kruehberger, but it, I don't know, look, what they thought that it might have been the two of them together. - Yeah, something like that, but I don't know. He's dead now, so. Anyway, let's move forward with Kruehberger as a suspect and let's look at some potential motives. - Yes. - So. - Very interested about this because clearly he was targeting Kaylee. - Kaylee? - Kaylee Gonzalez, yeah. - Clearly Kaylee was like the main target initially. - So, yes, let's start with that. There are suggestions that perhaps given the brutality that Kaylee specifically was the target. - And she had the stalker beforehand. Is there any information about what that stalker had done? - Yes, there is information about those stalkers. Stalker stalkers. - About what the stalker had done. - Yeah. - Do you not remember? - I'm not sure if I did write it down, but I remember that apparently someone, two guys, I think had come into her work and said a photo out to her car or something like that. I think that was the extent, but those two guys were found and cleared. - That's not striking, though. - No, I think that they had waited outside her work and they were talking to her and they were following her car at multiple days. - Oh, so this happened more than one. - Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. But again, those two guys were found and cleared. So they weren't involved. But I don't know if that was the stalker she was talking about. That was just one that was mentioned in an article that I read. So, hang on, hang on to that thought about the stalkers. - Yeah. - I think it's possible, if not more than likely, that she and Maddie were the first to be killed. - Yeah. - And the other murders were just maybe collateral, unfortunately, because maybe he heard Zana say someone's here. Remember Kaylee and Maddie were on the third floor. - So what was his connection to Kaylee? - I'm gonna get to it. - Okay. - Remember Kaylee and Maddie were on the third floor. - Yeah. - Okay, so they're on the top floor. DM heard someone interacting with the dog. - Yeah. - Was this Brian moving the dog to the other room to then murder the girls? Now, here's something. Brian Koburger is a strict vegan. - Okay. - Wow, that is so hypocritical. - Yeah, yeah. - To be vegan and then to murder people in cold blood. - Do you know what? - And feel free to cut this out if this sounds too callous, but I would sooner kill a human than I would an animal. - Yeah, I mean, to me, it's like the same thing. - No. - To me, it's worse to kill an animal. - Really? - Yeah. - Yeah, no. - Because you can't explain to an animal what you're doing. - Yeah, but he didn't explain to these guys. - No, true. - And they've got families who-- - True, true, true, true, true. - It's like, to me, it's the same. You're killing it like a living thing that has thoughts and feelings and is sentient. - Yeah. - Like, you're not vegan. - If you murdered two-- - Wasn't eating them. - If you murdered four people, I'm not saying he's right. - No, but vegans won't wear leather and vegans won't, you know, they won't use animal products. - Yeah, I'm not, yeah, look, I don't know why I'm defending him. - Yeah. (laughing) - I'm getting angry with the wine. (laughing) And also, just so you know, this is stressing me out so much that I'm picking at my skin. - Yeah, can you stop? - I'm sorry. - Can you just like, hold on to something else? Like, hold on, pull yourself some more wine. And so, yes, this also is the reason that I don't think that he was responsible for that dog and rabbit skinning earlier on at the very beginning. - Yeah, yeah. - Let's just say he kills the two girls upstairs. That sounded like two matter of fact. Awfully. - Yes. - Horrifically, he murders these two young women upstairs. He then comes down the stairs and maybe he hears Zannah say that someone's here. - Yeah, yeah. - And he figures, well, they're awake. They've seen me come down the stairs. I have to kill them too. Maybe they were even looking out of the room and he saw them. - Yeah, maybe they opened the door. - Maybe. Maybe the door was open. - Maybe. - Yeah. - And that's theory number one, right? He meant to kill Kayleigh and everyone else was just collateral damage and he didn't see DM, didn't see BF and left the residents. And that theory then leads on to this next one. Despite no sexual assault having occurred, wasn't a sexually motivated crime. We know that stabbing can indicate a sexual component. In the weeks before the murders, Koberg allegedly ate at the restaurant where two of the victims worked. According to a former employee at the Mad Greek restaurant in Moscow, Idaho, Brian Koberg came in at least twice to grab vegan pizza. Two of the victims, Madison Mogan and Zana Knodl were serviced at the restaurant, okay? Not Kayleigh, but Zana and Maddie. It's unclear if either woman ever waited on Koberga or if they even interacted, but it had now deleted a count that appeared to belong to Koberga once followed both Mogan and Knodl on Instagram along with Kayleigh Gonzalez. Oh, so he was following all of them, yes, all the girls. Jesus. So was he obsessed with all the women? We know he seems to have issues with women. He was fired from his assistant teaching role as a result of that. It could also be some kind of in-cell killing. Like, it seems like it's, yeah. - Clifford, please. - Yeah, it seems like that kind of thing is becoming a little bit more common, unfortunately. Yeah. Now here's some background on Brian Koberga. I think this will have to be a two party 'cause now we're at 140 wall. - How old was this guy? - In his 20s. - In his 20s. - I think so. I think so. That could be wrong. Should I check it right now? I'll check it right now. - Just double check. - That's probably important. - You said he was one of their, like, what tutors or something? - Oh, he was a teaching assistant because he was a PhD student. - Right. - But that's like, that's in, like, our uni system. That would be like a tutor. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, 'cause the tutor isn't usually doing their, like, masses stuff, yeah. - Yeah. - So you're probably, like, 30, maybe, at the oldest, I'd say? - Yeah, okay. - I don't know why this whole time I've been picturing, like, a 40 or 50-year-old because it's such a fucking heinous crime. He was 28. He was 28 when he was arrested. In middle school, Brian Koberga was known by some for being creepy. - Mm-hmm. - Okay. It's not always a bad thing. - It's not always a bad thing, but here we go. Let me, let me keep going. Top me out, pre-girl. Are you a host or what? (laughs) I did just call this our house before. (laughs) Apparently, with, quote, "a dead-eyed stare," he pursued, quote, "an attainable girls, "mainly the pretty ones who were out of his league." As one classmate later put it, he gave them, quote, "a weird feeling in their stomach." Okay. Brian had very few friends, but one person he did hang out with, although only at school, was an autistic kid, pseudonym Lee. Now, I would never just call someone an autistic kid. That's what he refers to himself as. Like, I guess I was just the autistic kid that he hung out with. - Okay, right. I was gonna say that. Are you okay? (laughs) - You know, we're probably on this picture. - Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we all know my particular quip. So this is what Lee had to say. Quote, "He just had something about him that seemed off." And that's coming from someone's mate. His autistic mate could tell that something was off about him. - Yeah. Oh, I think that people on the spectrum often can pick up on, like, things a little bit. - Well, not, but not emotions. (laughs) - I don't know. - So Lee goes on, so Lee was on Reddit and he goes on to say, "I was trying to better my own social standing, as I was, "at the time, a bit of a social outcast "because of my autism, "so I didn't want to associate myself with him." - Oh, so he was like a fucking like weirdo loser. - Yeah, so Brian was a weirdo. - Yeah. - And Lee, the quote unquote autistic kid, yeah, was like, "I don't want to associate with Brian." - Yeah, yeah. - Brian seemed to waver between emotionless and fury, even under the best circumstances, but rejection could make him belligerent. According to Lee, when they were about 13, he told Brian the friendship was over. In response, Brian attacked Lee. Quote, "He pinned me because he was very overweight. "I was chubby myself. "He was probably 50 plus pounds heavier than me." In the following years, Lee says Brian took up boxing and she had the extra weight that he had. Brian had a visual snow syndrome, also known as VSS, which is a disorder in which vision is clouded by White Dot's resembling TV static. And I looked into this disorder or this syndrome a little bit. And from what I could find, doctors don't really know what causes it. They said it could be like an issue with the occipital lobe. Like hyperactivity in the occipital lobe. - Okay. - And it is comorbid or like it co-occurs with depression, anxiety, ADHD, autism. - Interesting, yep. - But none of us have it. - Yeah, interesting. Well, it is pretty rare too. It's like one of the girls will have, but maybe one to 2% of the population. - Okay. - So it's pretty rare. - Yeah. - But Brian apparently had VSS. - Okay. - For a number of years, Brian, or someone who shares his photograph, birthday and email, recorded a journey into VSS and meant deterioration on a message board. So this is obviously like some journalist has found someone who shares his, all these details. And it's been like, it's him and I don't want to get sued. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - This is what someone wrote, yeah. - This is what he allegedly wrote. - This is what Brian allegedly wrote. - Yeah. - And I'll mention here that many of these posts were pretty recently removed. - Okay. - On this message board. - Brian apparently allegedly wrote. "I am 15 in 21 days and don't want to wish I'm dead because of this horrible thing. Something major is wrong with me. I am just a blank soul. I used to be a spelling bee champion. My doctor put me on every medication and it made me crazy. I always feel as if I'm not there, completely depersonalized. Mentally I, dot dot dot, feel like my life is a movie, dot dot dot. I have delusions of grandeur, poor social skills in capitals, no emotion, dot dot dot. I can say and do whatever I want with little remorse. Everyone hates me pretty much. I am an asshole. I broke my table for no reason. I find no joy in life, question mark. I simply don't want to live anymore." - Wow, that is, that's bleak. - And I will also mention that VSS, that visual snow syndrome, it can result in depersonalization as well. - Yeah. - But so. - I've experienced depersonalizing. - Absolutely, Me Too. It was anxiety and depression could do the same thing. - Yeah. - So yeah, he seems like he's maybe not great. - Yeah. - He's not doing well. - That was when he was 15. - 15, yeah. - And he's 28 when he commits these murders, allegedly. - Yeah. - It's just interesting, like a lot of that is like, a kid who is struggling, but it's interesting that I can do whatever I want with no remorse sort of thing. I'm an asshole and I don't care. Kind of, everyone hates me, whatever. That's an interesting thing for him to say. - Yeah, it's also like, I think about the type of shit that I would have written when I was 15. - Yeah, same. And I like a lot of the, you know, I wish I was dead. That kind of stuff. I'm like, yeah, I couldn't see that. But the, I have no remorse. I don't care what people think. Like, that's a little bit, that's interesting. - Yeah, yeah. I think it goes a little bit deeper than just like the, like, emo. - Yeah, exactly. - 15 year old. - Yeah. - Yeah, because he would have been emo around the same time that we would have been emo. - Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Brian's hatred towards women seems to have been a pattern. He exhibited throughout his life as well. Seven Sirens Brewing Company in Pennsylvania record Brian sitting by himself staring at people. So Pennsylvania is where Brian's from originally. - Yeah. - Sitting by himself staring at people until he inevitably started harassing women after having a few beers. Asking them creepy questions about where they lived or who they were there with. If the women edged away or rejected him, Brian lashed out at them. When a female bartender refused to answer his questions, Brian caught her a bitch. - What a surprise. - So we're getting an idea about what kind of guy Brian is. - Yes, yep. - So that's all part of that kind of whole theory that Kaylee was- - That you know what is so scary. I know so many Brian's. - Oh, I've experienced so many Brian's in my life. - I bet our listeners likewise know a lot of Brian's. - Yes. - Yeah, it is a terrifying world for women. - Yeah. So this is my, this is a third theory that I'm going to go on to now. Given that Kobegger studied criminology and studied under the author of the BTK book, which I told you about, maybe he wanted to commit a crime that he could provide these seemingly insightful little bits of knowledge and theories about and for because he was the murderer. - Yeah. - This theory was voted by someone else. I can't take credit for it, but it was suggested that maybe he wanted to be like the foremost expert on a major crime. - Yeah. - Like the criminologist that he studied on that. - Yes, yeah. - So theory four, which is, it kind of flows on from this. I think maybe he wanted to try and commit the perfect murder. Like maybe he thought he could given how much he thought he knew about the topic. - Yeah. - On the surface, I think Brian might look like he had his life together. I think, and I'm going to show you a photo of him now, just so that you kind of have an idea about what he looks like. - Yeah. - Because I think you probably are imagining someone in your brain, right? You've got a picture of a guy in your head. - Yeah, it's changed a couple of times since the start of the story. - And I get an almost guaranteed, he won't look like what he looks like. The image in your head won't look like what he looks like. - No. - But I can see it. Anyway, I'll keep going. So yeah, he might look like he had his life together, but you're like, just scrape a little and you see he had a much, much more disturbed side at 15, Brian developed a heroin addiction. - At 15. - At 15. - Ah, after his family declared bankruptcy for a second time. - Jesus. - He eventually did get clean though, but I just want to go back for a second and discuss one part of this case, how Brian was driving to his parents' house in the outside of the country. - Yeah. - When the police had identified the car of interest, they'd put out a baller on that car. A baller is a be on lookout for, be on lookout. - Yep. - That's a police term. - I don't know. - If you watch Laurent or SVU, then you're familiar with that term. So they put a baller out on that car. I have a theory. Knowing the police had correctly identified his car at the crime scene, I reckon Brian wanted to get out of town, because he has a degree in cloud-based forensics. He's got a degree in criminology. He must have known that his car would have been - Yes. - A point of like, recognition. - Surely. - So I think Brian wanted to get out of town so that the local police couldn't identify his car. Couldn't find it. I also reckon that maybe he was gonna sell it, in Philly, or somewhere on the way even. Or dispose of it all the way, who knows. But on the way back when he wouldn't be driving with his dad, 'cause his dad flew out to Washington to then drive back to Philly with his son. - Okay. - And so-- - What reason did he give who? - Like, why did his dad fly out there? - I think it was just like, oh, it was just like a nice thing. 'Cause I think Brian had decided he was gonna drive out there. - Oh, and he was like, why don't you fly out dad and then we'll-- - I don't know, it'll occur. - I'm just speculating here. - Okay. - I'm not gonna-- - Yeah, okay. - Yeah, but so who knows? - Right. - I'm sure it will come out, but yeah. Maybe he wanted, and maybe even, like we know that he was found putting different pieces of trash into different little baggies with gloves on. Maybe he wanted to dispose of them along the way so that they would never be found, you know? - Yeah. - If he just was driving back from Philly to Washington and was dropping little baggies of evidence out the window, they would never, ever be found. - Yeah. - Or they'd be found and disposed of, you know? - Yeah. - Never be tied back. And that is pure speculation on my behalf, but it's also one that is not, it's not a novel thought of mine. I would have thought that many, many people would have the same thought. - Oh, the other thing is, that I should imagine, Brian and his dad were stopped twice on the drive from Washington to Philly. And the stops were supposedly for driving too close to the car in front of them. - Both times. - Both times? - How embarrassing. - But, and the cops claimed they didn't know that there was a, like a, a bottle out on that car. I reckon that they did know there was a bottle out. And I reckon they deliberately stopped him. And again, this is not my own thought. Someone said, maybe to check his hands and his face for different, like for arm for scratches and things like that. - Uh-huh. - Or to check his demeanor. - I was gonna say, maybe they wanted to see if he was gonna arc up and like be a problem where they were gonna need back up. - Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. - 'Cause I, if I was a cop and I knew that somebody had potentially committed a quadruple murder, I don't know if I would wanna take them on by myself. - And knowing that he has such an education. - Yeah. - I would like to have a bit more information. - Yeah, maybe get a bit of like- - Oh, this is just a routine. Oh, you're a little bit close to that car. Are you gonna- - Sussing yeah, he's one of my dreams- - You're gonna go crazy at me? - Yeah, absolutely. And so, one of those traffic stops, the body cam footage has been released and you can watch it. And there are a number of YouTube videos analyzing his body language. And there is one point in that particular traffic stop, the one that has been released, where the cop asks his data question and the data answers and Brian looks at his dad, like, daggers. Oh, like, he's like, like, it almost looks like Brian is going like, don't you fucking say a word, like, but if everyone reckons the data is innocent, doesn't know anything. - Yeah, okay. Maybe he's just like an asshole to his parents as well. Who knows, but yeah, you can watch that online as well. On February 24th, 2023, so last year, University of Idaho President C. Scott Greene announced that the house where the killings occurred was donated to the university. It was demolished 10 months later on December 28. Some have criticized this decision saying they should have waited until after the trial had concluded. I don't know, I mean, surely the police and prosecution said it was fine. - Like, there's no more evidence they can gather. - I do know that there was a case where the jury will walk through the crime scene to see, like, how it happened, but I think probably in this case it's a modern home. You could find some of the layout and just explain it just easily. - Yeah, yeah. I'm sure there's, like, video footage of-- - Yeah. Have you watched that video footage of the Wonderland murders? - I don't know if that's the one I've watched. I've watched some video footage, like, walkthroughs. I don't know if that's what I've watched. So there's this one. It's on YouTube. - Yeah. - It's a detective walking through this, like, essentially it's a drug killing, but it's a multiple killing in this house on Wonderland Drive in LA. It shows the dead bodies in situ. - Oh, God, yeah. - Yeah, so some criticized the demolishing of that house, but I'm sure it's fine. Kayleigh Gonzalez and Madison Mogan had been friends since sixth grade. They remembered as being kind, intelligent, and driven. A friend of Ethan Chappen and Zana Canodle so that the pair had made her believe in love. A memorial garden for the victims on the University of Idaho campus is being planned. Scholarships in the name of three of the victims, Canodle, Chappen, and Mogan have been created. The University awarded posthumous degrees to the four victims at its spring commencement ceremonies on May 13th, 2023, that were accepted by the families of the deceased. And that is the what we know so far of the University of Idaho matters, the student matters. - Okay. There's obviously still a lot to come. - There is so much that we don't know, and also so much that I didn't include. Like, I could have, that could have gone three hours. - Okay, yeah. 'Cause I'm still really interested in his link to them. - The victims, yeah. - Yeah, like, there's a possible link at the-- - With the workplace. - Yeah, the Greek place, but we don't even know if-- - And so they were students at the University that he was-- - No. - Okay, different University. - Different University, yeah. So he worked at Washington University. They worked, or Washington State. They were at University of Idaho. - Yeah, okay. - But they were 15 minutes apart. - Yeah. - So there's every possibility that they were at the same parties. - Yes, yeah. - But, given that he's a weirdo, I doubt he would've been invited to the parties, yes. - Yeah, yep. - But he followed like three of them on Instagram. - He followed the girls on Instagram. - All the girls on Instagram. - Yeah, okay. What about the two girls that weren't murdered? Did he follow them on Instagram as well? - That wasn't mentioned. - Okay. - I think they've been deliberately excluded from a lot of the reporting. - Fair enough, yeah. - Yeah, sure. - And sort of protect them a little bit. - Yeah, and I will mention here, DM, who's the one that provided a lot of information in the probable cause affidavit. She was absolutely fucking hounded online. People were like calling her worse than mine for not having reacted sooner and not having called sooner, not having done anything in the moment. Like, people are so quick to judge online. So again, Saruti from the Red Hand Podcast, she was saying something that gave her solace in this case was, 'cause she was saying that she couldn't sleep for weeks after having researched it. But she was saying something that gave her solace was her imagining or knowing that this is such an isolated event and it's so uncommon. - I suppose, yeah. - But then she was saying, reading the comments that were directed at DM, like made her scared again because she was like, how could you possibly direct this comments at this young girl? - Out of victim. - Out of victim, yeah, she's a victim. She witnessed the most horrific, that they were her best friends. They were her college friends, like, I'm still friends of the people I went to college with. - And imagine the fear that she had at that time. - Oh, like apparently some of them fainted. - Yeah, how about direct that hatred and vitriol at the person who actually committed the crime, not the person who didn't react in the way that you think they should have. Like, it's one thing to be like, oh, that's weird that she did that and it's another thing to be, like, actually, like, hateful towards her. - Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, God, the two of them. - Yeah, look at them. - He looks dead. He looks like a-- - He looks dead. - Like, he's been embalmed. - He does. (laughs) - Cliff, I'll have you. (laughs) Is he awake? - That won't wake him up. It takes a lot. He sleeps deeply. (laughs) - He's relaxed. - Jesus. - So, yeah, that is essentially the, and do you like Cobra as a suspect? - Yeah. Well, it sounds like they've got all of the evidence against Jim, so yeah. - Yeah, absolutely. - I think it's, look, I think the-- - I think they know what they're doing. - The probable cause after David, I think, really outlines how deep they went into the house and how they cross-checked a lot of shit. - Yes. - Really, I think. - Yeah, they did their due diligence with this one. - Yes, I think so. And I think it's also like the way of police, investigations in this era. You've got to like-- - Yeah, I wonder if this was a crime that happened in like the '70s or '80s, if it would have gone unsolved. - Well, yeah, they wouldn't have had the cameras. - They wouldn't have had the cameras. - And the car was what really like, yeah, blew it wide open. - Yeah, yeah. - I wonder if that's one of the reasons that we don't have the kind of like serial killers that we had back in the day. - Yeah, you know what? I was looking at the other day and there was a guy, I think it's that guy that you were talking about earlier who has recently murdered two or three women. And I was thinking, not that two or three women is not an atrocity and horrific act and all that, but it's not as many as you would see. - 12 or like 15 or 20. - Right, right. - Yeah, and I was thinking like, why that is, that we're not seeing those numbers now. And it's got to be because of that. - They can't get away with it. - No, yeah. - People have security measures, this cameras, there's stuff on your phone. You've got a mobile right there. So like, I know if I ever like hear a noise, I start doing the zero, zero and I like just wait to press zero. (laughing) Again, just like a fucking bag of nerves. (laughing) - I mean, I don't think it's a surprise anyone, Sarah has clinical anxiety. (laughing) People are ever listening and they're like, what the fuck is wrong with that? - Yeah, she's, there is something wrong with that. She has clinical anxiety. And she's not a medication at the moment because she's breastfeeding. - Yeah. - Just raw dogging it. - Yeah. (laughing) And I guess like my apathy is a depression. - It's a depression. - Yeah, I have just clinical depression, so. (laughing) Two sides are the same coin. There you go. (laughing) But look, I will do, I follow up on this case, obviously, because there is so much that we don't know. - Yeah, you need to follow up on the Delphi one as well. - Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think both cases are slated, well, I think Delphi is slated for end of this year. And this case in particular that the Idaho murders is slated for this time next year, June 25. - Yeah, yeah, okay. - Yeah, so a lot of stuff is gonna come out between then and now. But yeah, it's just a fucking horrific case where four young lives were taken. And I know that these young people were like very loved by their community. Ethan was one of three, he was a triplet. - Oh. - His brothers, what was he a triplet? I think he was a triplet and his brothers went to the same school. - And so close. - Yeah, so yeah. And, as I said, Callie and Maddie had been friends since the sixth grade and they did everything together. And there was like a point of consternation for Callie that she was gonna be moving to Texas because she was like, I chose this university because Maddie was going here. Like they did everything together. And in the, what is the speech at the funeral? - Obituary. - Yeah, so that Callie's dad spoke about how he found some solace in the fact they died next to each other. - Together, yeah. - Yeah, but yeah, like it's just senseless and awful. - It makes me so angry. He's fucking losers who just-- - Is that Clifford Apache? - I think it's both of them. Let's just wrap it up. - Yeah. - Yeah, he's fucking losers that just decide they're angry and they're gonna take it out. - Yeah, exactly. Just be miserable and like take it out on yourself. Like, no, no, I don't wanna say that actually. - Just be miserable and keep it inside. - Find a person bag? - Yeah. - A literal punching bag. - Do you know what? Find a therapist. - Find a therapist, yes. - A fucking therapist. - Yeah. - I don't think anyone walks into this podcast is of that mindset. - Hopefully not, but and if they were, they wouldn't have listened to two hours' worth of us fucking rambling. - All right. Thanks for listening. Good one. That was excellent research, by the way. - Thank you. - Yeah, I mean, compare it to my Wilk or what? - Well, I think one is true and one is not, so, you know. Please feel free to reach out if you have any thoughts on that case or, you know, if you wanna know anything in particular, we can cover it in a, like, a, at the start up in the next episode or whatever. - Yeah, yeah. - But yeah, that's, and apologies for the voice. I'm, like, getting over a sickness and I've been talking for two hours straight now, so. - Yeah, 'cause we've been chatting away as well in between that I might've added it out. - Yeah. - This might, we might make this a two-parter, so you might've listened to this over two weeks. - Yeah. - And if you listen to this over two weeks-- - Actually over, like four weeks, 'cause we do it for an eyeliner. - Well, there we go. Okay, so thanks for listening, everyone. - Thank you.