The Last Wicket duo is joined by founding member of the pod - Himanish to discuss Indian spin legend Ravi Ashwin's book "I Have The Streets - A Kutty Cricket Story". We discuss what the book reveals about what sets Ashwin apart from his peers, the perceptions about his attitude and constant innovations, what the future holds for Ashwin, and much more.
The Last Wicket
Ashwin Has The Streets
He heads back, he heads back, and stands back, and stands back, and the end is hilarious. Hello and welcome to The Last Wicked, my name is Benny, thank you for joining us. And on today's episode, we are going to discuss a book from one of the most interesting and unique cricketers on the planet currently. I have The Streets, a Kutti Cricket Story by Ravi Chandran Ashwin with co-author credit to Siddharth Monga. The electronic version of the book is out now with a hardcover set to release in November this year. And to speak about a genius cricketer, we had to assemble a couple of smart people of our own. So I'm joined by my co-host Mike, and the founding member of The Last Wicked podcast, making a comeback after quite some time away, be on an Oli Jiminish, welcome back dude. Thank you so much Benny, it's so nice to see you guys and be here again. And what a great topic to come back to. Yeah, but before we get into all of that, I'm sure many people on social media are wondering where is Jiminish, where has he been up to, where is his articles and all of that. So do you have anything to share about what you've been up to recently? So yeah, it's been a couple of years since I was on this podcast and in the interim I've done a few things, I finished my PhD and I got a postdoc in Paris and I'll be moving soon. I got married and I've been working on cricket in the background, working a little bit, but not really, but it's been in the background. Yeah, so I'm looking to get back into writing soon because my gig is now done. And we'll see what happens with that. But yeah, that's the gist of it that I finished a PhD as working to get a little bit and I got married. Well, congratulations first of all on getting married and yes, a lot has happened in the time that you've been away, but yeah, I'm looking forward to you getting back to putting out more cricket content and probably hear more about the gig that you've been on. I think a few people know, so I'm sure more will be interested to hear about the work you've been up to. But let's get to what we wanted to talk about. So like I mentioned, you know, Rabishandar Nashrin is one of the most interesting cricketers on the planet for me, not just because of his cricketing skills, which I think everyone can agree he's one of the most skilled cricketers on the planet, but for me, what's interesting is the way he thinks about the game, the way he plans his, you know, the insights that he has, especially after following his, you know, his YouTube channel and kind of like hearing him speak about a lot of topics that he doesn't hold back on his opinions at all. And he's definitely very knowledgeable, very fascinating. And the one thing that I didn't really know too much about was his kind of like childhood and how he got into cricket in the first place. And so this book, I have the streets, he kind of delts into that as well. So it does give a more complete picture of Ashwin the person to compliment, you know, the story of Ashwin the cricketer. So I know both of you that dissemination Mike, you both have read the book completely. I have only started reading it, I'm still to get to get to the end, but yeah, I'm really curious to hear both of your thoughts. But Mike, what did you think about the book overall? I loved it. It's probably one of the better autobiographies that I've read. For a couple of reasons, one is, you know, he's just the way he thinks is very different. I've read a lot of autobiographies and I don't think anybody's gone to this level of detail. That was always striking to me that, you know, he's remembering things all the way back from his childhood and he's giving you exact field settings that he's discussed or he's had. And also, I think it, you know, we often talk about the newer generation and when we send your generation, they're all old now, but the colleagues and all those people and their, and they're, you know, just being them being so confident and this and that. But this book shows that even though Ashwin, you know, generally looks like somebody who is soft spoken and all of that, he's immensely confident and how that drops people sometimes in the wrong way, things like that. So a very enjoyable read for sure and I was, yeah, I was surprised that he wrote a book at this point, but it kind of made sense that he didn't cover his whole career. So I'm, I'm sure another one is coming out and I'm going to grab that as soon as I can. There is a part two in the works. Yes. Oh, there is. Okay. I think Munga's already started it, but yeah, yeah, so, this guy is one of the best recruiters of all time, right? And he is a genius and he is successful, but my primary thought reading this book was that this guy is us, okay, this guy is every common Indian who's played cricket in two ways, right? So one way was how deeply and how romantically he cared about street cricket or like any cricket to watch or to play. The other thing is, despite being a genius and despite being successful and so on, there is a certain disquiet in this person, there's a certain lack of peace, there's a certain insecurity which propels him, which makes, you know, makes him close to us, right? And that was my primary thought for this book that you can see at how many points in time, how many points in his life is considered giving up or he sees his thought that he's not good enough and that makes him close to us, but still he's trying to over that. That was my primary for learning from the book. I'm always curious if you need that element of almost that restless energy, that kind of stubbornness, which separates the good from the great. I mean, I think it's a good example of that because, I mean, I think it's well publicized now. He's not everyone's cup of tea. You know, he rubs certain people the wrong way. This always talk about like he has too much attitude and all of that. And do you think that Ashwin is a good example of, you know, if you need that extra bit, you just need almost that extra drive or something like that? So drive and I think giving too much of a fuck, right? So one of the examples I'll give is that when he was bowling in the nets and I think 2008 or 2009 to some battles from the Indian team, these players did not notice him and that hurt him a lot. So it's almost like he gives too much of a fuck and he wants to prove himself and that that fire at each stage in his life has propelled him and I think it's very important just to care so deeply about being noticed and proving yourself at every stage in life is he, I think. Yeah. Yeah. If you think about like all these overachievers and doesn't have to be in the field of cricket, but anywhere, I feel like they're all the, you know, they're very meticulous about what they want to do and, you know, I mean, we've all seen the last stands, for example, where Michael Jordan is like, I took that personally, you know, that sort of attitude where they sort of absolutely want to show up and be the best and they really don't don't, you know, stop competing ever. And we've heard similar stories from, let's say Chatechor Pajara who says they're playing table tennis with Ashwin or a PlayStation with Coley and, you know, these things they will never give up, they will never concede and that sort of attitude and that sort of carries into their, you know, main profession as well. And you could see this in the book, right, because in the book at one point he says that when I used to play like street matches, I wanted them to be competitive because otherwise I'd load in like, yeah. So he wants the match to be as competitive as possible to drive him and to fire him and that's that's something that makes the top athletes, right? I think, I think that's a key component. Just reflected in the title of the book. I think that's what's the first thing that grabbed me. It was not a generic kind of like a, you know, quote from a motivational poster or anything. It was like very upfront, very direct and almost like braggadoches, right? Like I have the streets and I was thinking, man, this is like a perfect reflection of Ashwin, the person, Ashwin, the cricketer because he has always had that attitude that he's a champion, he's, you know, world class and yeah, so that always stood out for me. Are there any specific instances that he mentions, any incidents that he mentions in the book that any of you found kind of surprising that kind of went against probably what you thought about him? I think the one that stands out to me is probably in the IPL and I can't remember it was a season one or two, but some senior player or some coach comments that, you know, he learned a lot by rubbing shoulders with Murley, Matthew Hayden, Mike Hussey at CSK and his first thought is, I don't really care about rubbing shoulders, I want to be better than them. And that's not something you would, you know, think of Ashwin at all. So it just speaks volumes of one, his, you know, just that attitude that we were just talking about, you know, being better than anybody else. And also like, I don't think he hesitates to speak up, like, I think the fact that he, you know, goes, I think in his first season as, and the run due to a fee goes and talks to the captain and says, I want the ball in a tough situation, or he goes up to the coach and always is asking for feedback. If he's dropped, he's annoying people asking why he's dropped, even if it drops them the wrong way, that is just very striking. I mean, he's, you know, whatever he's seen of him, you mentioned the YouTube channel, you mentioned him, you know, just in interviews, that tells you, yes, he's very curious, but the fact that he's that bold, that early surprised me for sure. I think surprised. So like I told you, the number of instances where he just looks close to giving up and the amount of insecurities he has wasn't relevant to me. But there also sort of humanized him, that this is not just the testicator, this someone who's built his way up through. And yeah, so yeah, like the whole spiel of him being constantly disquieted by his lack of progress was surprising to me, but also like it kind of explains where he is. Yeah. I mean, from the little that I wrote from the book, you know, because I've been mostly reading about kind of his childhood and some of the health challenges that he had in childhood. It's striking to me that this is the first time I'm reading about it, because I don't really know if he has mentioned this in previous interviews or if anyone else has talked about it. Because right now we live in an age where, you know, every cricketer's kind of background is explored, kind of like the adversity, like I'm sure everyone at this point know about Josh's speech as well as kind of like struggles to get to where he is right now. And similarly for every kind of rising cricketer, but with Ashwin, this is like one of the first times I'm hearing about it. So that really surprised me and kind of impresses me because he's had to overcome all of that. And we hear more about like how, you know, we hear more about his attitude or even like his perceived arrogance. And that makes me think like Indian cricket has not always been kind to people like that, right? Like you think about the Virat Kohli's, the Ashwin's even Gautam Gambir for, you know, we don't always appreciate when people are little to upfront or in your face. It's easier to appreciate, you know, the dravitz and the tendlekers because, you know, they're the more acceptable kind of sports persons. Do you think Indian cricketing culture or even sporting culture, they're not yet ready to accept a little bit more, you know, like in your face kind of sports persons? I think fortunately it's changing a little bit now, but yeah, it still remains that way in the backwaters and at the lower levels, right? But you have to be almost like, you know, like reverential towards your coaches and towards your seniors and there's still a culture there. But I think it's changing, but yeah, I don't think we move too much. Anything, Mike? And now I was going to say, I agree with that. I do think like more and more, you know, young people, young cricketers, budding cricketers see that being expressive, being a little bit loud sometimes is okay, but... Like Rian Paregg is a good example, right? Right. Right. But having said that, like he's there because he's already won the N19 World Cup. He's a regular artist on Royals. I don't know if he was able to, he would be able to do that when he was, you know, 12, 15, 10, whatever. And again, he's also worked with his dad as a coach, which is a different environment compared to some of the others who, you know, like I just suggest while who come through, you know, come through a lot more difficulty. So I think that way, I don't think like at a younger age, it's still acceptable to be that curious and I'm sure that our coaches who shut budding cricketers up if they ask too many questions. Yeah. People don't like Rian Paregg, by the way, like that's... Right. Not a people on social media who don't like that he's so outspoken and he, you know, like... So I think it's changing a little bit, but yeah, like Paregg is a good example of where we are at right now, because he's one of the rare cricketers who is expressive. And yeah, but people don't necessarily like him a lot because of that. The thing with Ashwin is that he was almost like a unicorn in the sense of how confident he was from a young age, right? So from a young age, think about things, he'd feel bad about things and he'd talk about it. So I think that's still very unique in Indian cricket and Indian society at a young age. And it'll take some time to break that. But I think Ash had problems because he was so unique at that age, right? I don't think many people are that way. So yeah. You know, my first memory of Ashwin is from the IPO, you know, when he started playing for CSK under Zoni. If you find that right. Yeah. Yeah. Forever. You know, at that time, what I am really there was kind of like the Trump spinner for CSK. And we had a few others, but when Ashwin came along, it was like, oh, there's like a local, like a Chennai kid who seems to be doing well and he'll be like a good support for Murthy. And then it seemed like his career just skyrocketed from there, even when he was selected for the test team. I was thinking, and again, this goes back to a time and I was not really following domestic cricket apart from IPO. And so when he was selected for the test, I was thinking, did they just select him because of his IPO success? Because I don't know if he's ready. And then he's just had a meteoric career in test cricket. So what are your, you know, first impressions of Ashwin from the first time that you saw him and kind of like how he's just kind of risen through the ranks? My first recollection was just seeing him bowl in the power play was pretty unique because again, at that point in 2020, like we all talk about Samuel Badri and how he's really started, you know, a spinner bowling regularly in the power play. But Ashwin used to do that on occasion, not all the time, but for CSK. And I thought that was pretty interesting. And I think part of it was also, you mentioned Murthy, Murthy didn't like to bowl in the power play. But part of it was that the senior pro wanted the middle overs. But that was pretty unique to me. And then the other thing that always that stood out to was, you know, again, this is a long time back. But I feel like one of the first things I remember is him bowling, you know, the Karen ball and bowling, I think it was Ashimam, or somebody with that. And, you know, it was, yeah, and I was just very surprising because I, you know, you used to off spinners, bowling a certain way, bowling flatter, things like that. But it going the other way was, it was just, you know, a beautiful sight. So that those are the two things that stand out. And then, oddly enough, I remember his test debut as well, which where I think it was a close game. And I think it was in the West Indies, if I remember it right, where he didn't run super fast and it ended up as a draw. So it was a very interesting test game where my first thought after those, you know, watching him bowl, that beautiful Karen ball was, well, is he fit enough? You know, that was probably my first few instincts when I saw Ashimam. I think my first memories too are from CSK. And I remember that super over that he boarded in the Champions League very clearly, where he got backed by, I think, David Hussey who backed him around and we lost that game. But yeah, I was a big CSK fan, so like Vijay and Ashwin were my favorites on that team. And that's my sort of first impression and talking about the Karen ball. So he talks about the Karen ball a lot in the book, right? So he has gone to Sri Lanka for a youth tournament or a match and he sees a spinner there for the first time bowling a Karen ball with a leather ball. So Ashwin has been trying it with the tennis ball, but he sees for the first time someone bowling it with a leather ball and at the end, it's revealed that that someone is Mendes. And when he sees that again in the IPL, so in 2008, he sees that again in the, I think it was the Asia Cup, right? So where we lost him. So he sees that again in 2008 and then he decides to start bowling it. And he talks a lot about it, about how Dhoni encouraged him to bowl that because that was a very good ball. So yeah, so yes, so CSK memory is super over in the Champions League that we lost and Karen was yes. I mean, given all of that, the fact that he's now a bona fide test legend today is incredible because, you know, when he made his entry into Indian cricket at that time, obviously the great spinners where we talked about Adel Kumblay and Harvajan Singh in that era. And of course, Indian cricket has a tremendous legacy of world-class spinners over the decades. And to see Ashwin kind of just over the years, you know, over the last two decades, essentially leapfrog them. And I think only Adel Kumblay is ahead of him right now. What is, do you have any insight into his success in test cricket? I know it's probably like a huge discussion, but if you could capture it like in a nutshell, like, what has set him apart from all of these other spinners before him? I think he's very adaptable, like the one thing, and this is not a surprise to anyone, but he's just always thinking about the conditions, things like that. And the best example of that, or the most recent example, maybe, is the Ranji test last year where, wait, was it last year or was it this year? I think earlier this year, yeah, Ranji test this year against England where he, when India won, he was asked about, you know, what did he change about the bowling after having lost one test? And he said, I had to forget everything I knew, and this is a different type of soil in a different part of the country, which we're not used to. So we had to think about what to do and how to adjust. And that is, in my mind, is, you know, quintessentially Ashwin, because he's always thinking about the game, he's always wondering how to adjust, always thinking what will work here. And that is, in my opinion, why he's improved, you know, so, so much. That's why we set 500 wickets, because in all the major test centers that we, you know, play a lot of test cricket, you know, Mumbai, Bangalore, all these places, Chennai, there's assistance for spinners, especially day four or five, and they know if they get the line in length right, if they get the pace right, they're going to get wickets, you know, especially after if the batters have done their job and put good totals on the board. But the fact that he was so improved in South Africa, in Australia, in England, and in his last, you know, last few tours, that was immensely enjoyable, because he was reading the conditions much better. He understood his role much better. And he had the consistency even when he was bowling, maybe a little bit flatter, when he was trying to rely on the bounce, maybe, rather than trying to rely on turn. So that evolution has been, in my mind, what sets him apart. We all know that he thinks a lot, right, but to have the ability to execute, you know, a variety of skills on the field. So the first, the basic, you know, building block is just you need to bowl that length consistently in test cricket. What they talk about in the book, which is there and thereabouts, right, you need to be there in test cricket, and he talks about it. So when you bowl outside the or stump, there's no way you should bowl full enough for the batter to cover drive. If the batter wants to cover drive, they have to reach out for it. Now this skill of putting revs on the ball while maintaining that four to six meter length, which is a good length in the tests, maintaining that for a long time is key. That is the basic key. Now on top of that, the skill, so the thought process to experiment with your scene positions, with your overspain, with your sidespin, with your angle, with your pace, with your trajectory. And the skill to execute it in a test match sets them apart. I think doing that is what basically gets you higher up there. It was the same with Shane. Right? Shane Warren could put so many revolutions on the ball while always bowling that good length and never, never, you know, going too short or too full. So that is the basic crux of bowling and that is what he does so well. In addition to thinking so well about the game, right? So if you don't get turned in Australia, he will exploit the pace. He will exploit the bounce, he'll bowl with more overspain and he really thinks about this. So I think that really makes him some, you know, like a bowler who's really different from all other bowlers because usually people don't think this much intricate. They know what to do and they do it well, they're very, very skilled, but they don't think this much. So this marriage of skill with thought process is what makes Ashwin who he is. And I can tell because I've heard stories from people who work with the team that he is extremely curious about how much side spin he's getting, how much dip he's getting, what pace he's bowling at. So he checks all these things regularly. So he really thinks about the game and he had the skill to match it. And that's very, very unique. I think. Well, so let's kind of get back into the book because all of this, I'm sure, you know, this growth in cricket, I mean, it all had to start somewhere or kind of had to be developed somewhere. Right. Especially young cricket, they need the right kind of guidance, the right kind of coaching, the right people around them to help develop not just their skills, but just their temperament. I'm assuming Ashwin talks about, you know, mentors or people who have helped them along the way, did any of these kind of make note of any worthy people that he mentioned kind of guiding him in his early years? Yeah, I think WV Raman definitely stands out in that regard. He's obviously coaching Ashwin at a young age. He's at that point trying to break into the, the, the men on the team and then be a regular there. There's, there's already a spinner who's established and he initially thinks they have a relationship so I may not get picked, things like that. But that some of the things that him and he's just mentioned, you know, not being driven or cut, that was ingrained into him by Raman. And there's a lot of other things that he talks about in the book, you know, being there and thereabouts, making sure the margin of error is less, also helping him understand that as he goes higher and higher, Ranji cricketers will, even if you're bowling, you know, there and thereabouts, there will be days when they'll just dispatch the good ball. So things like that, which WV Raman is always challenging Ashwin, always guiding him. That's a really enjoyable read. I think it's, you know, I mean, not that I've accomplished anything in life, but I feel like the things that I do good at, I've always had a good teacher. I personally think that that makes me more, very more interested in the subject and, and I'm not sure if Ashwin feels that, you know, feels the same, maybe he was always, you know, cricket nerd, but I'm sure his journey into off-spin, because remember, he was initially trying to be a batsman, but his journey into off-spin, you know, it takes a big jump when he starts interacting with Raman. So that's definitely a relationship that's very enjoyable to read. And the other aspect, which is worth commenting, as Himanish mentioned, you know, not a lot of spinners or not a book players think as much about the game, the best person to sort of, you know, give the best person that suits that description is his partner, Ravi Jereja, who is obviously extremely skilled. He's always there and thereabouts and Raman's words, you know, very accurate and he knows exactly what to do. But, you know, he's not thinking too much. He's just, he knows he's what he has to bold, he has to be accurate, he has to be, you know, a person of economy, just manages economy and then make sure he creates the pressure. So it's very interesting to see them and I'm really looking forward to the second book where he talks about that partnership as well, because I think that will be a great partnership to read about, to great spinners with their own methods, with their own thinking and still both extremely successful. Does Sashrin talk much about Jereja in the book? Not much, you know. I think he mentions him once or twice, but not in the context of their partnership dedicated, because the book ends at the end of the World Cup in 2011. So we haven't really reached that phase of his life. But he mentions him in passing because he's played a few matches against him or with him somewhere. So, yeah, one of the things that really struck me, like we know this, but it really strikes you because fortunately he's talked about how he built his career up, right? So the importance of club cricket in Chennai and there's a big culture of that in Chennai as well. So the hard yards that he put in for jolly rovers and I think it was Alvar Pate, right? So these two clubs where he bold a lot is the real sort of substance that makes you what you become. So we always look at cricketers coming through the IPL and then going to the international team. We don't really know what goes into making them, right? So the hard yards you put in club cricket where you bold like 40-50 hours a game is what really makes you. And the fact that he chose to talk about his time in club cricket is a very important component of what makes him who he is. I think not a lot of cricket focuses on that, but we should. Yeah, it's interesting that I think I was reading one of the, I can't remember which book, but somewhere I was reading and one of the theories that to make a good test cricketer, you have to have eight to 10,000 balls of first-class cricket, some stat like that. And obviously these are just different ways of saying, you know, like, there's this theory that if you do something for 10,000 hours, you become, you're in the top 3% of, you know, people doing that. So there's all these theories which, you know, different people, different professions have. And it's, it's kind of like that with us, and he's, he's just obsessed with what he's doing. And so initially when he was a batsman, he was the same, he was always thinking about the field and this and that, then he's been told that, you know, that they see him more as an off-spinner than a batter and then he starts working that same level of detail with the soft spin, trying various things, you know, and, and just some people call him, you know, as a joke, they call him a scientist because he keeps trying these things, which in my mind is actually not an insult, but, but it's, it's funny because, you know, that's how trolls on social media work. But even within, when he's close to the India setup, he's always trying different things. There's a situation where he's playing for, I think, India A or India B, and he's been captain by Yerad Singh. And he bolts to Yerad in the nets and Yerad says, I couldn't recognize that was you, like the reaction is completely different. And so he explains how he tries to keep the batters and domestic cricket guessing by, by trying different actions, seeing, you know, how it affects the revs on the ball, his wrist position, things like that. So just that level of, just that level of, you know, being open to experimentation is very, very interesting because often, and this is true for, I think, majority of sportsmen, once they find how they've gotten success, they're very, they try to stick close to their rhythm. You know, they will try not to change anything. And that is, as that goes to, as that level of detail where they will always put the left pad first or whatever, right pad for something like that, you know, they absolutely have a rhythm with which they go on doing things, but Ashram doesn't seem to be like that. He's always looking to try something new and all of that. And that's what makes him, you know, more fascinating to read because I think if somebody like Sachin Tendulkar wrote a book with a lot more detail and he wrote a book, but I'm saying if he wrote a book like this level of detail, it may not have been as exciting because he was a man of just habit. This guy is not like that. He obviously works a lot, it works hard a lot, but he's not necessarily trying the same things, he's trying five different things. And one other piece that stood out, not from the book, but from one of the recent interviews I read was Vikram Rathor talking about Ashram's stint and his, you know, his mindset. And he said that if any of the coaches suggest something to Ashram, he will first argue why that needs to be tried out. And then if he's not convinced, then he'll go to the nets himself and try it out. And that is what makes Ashram so interesting because a lot of other cricketers would just be like, I prefer this method if the coach is asking me for a tweak. Okay, let me tweak it. And he will challenge that he will not be sure until he's seeing the effect himself. And then he'll be satisfied and then he'll go for it. Given all of this, was there anything that you felt like was missing from the book or something about the book that you thought was kind of like not great or kind of like the downsides to the book? Was there anything that, you know, made you feel that way? I personally thought that the World Cup could have been covered in a little more detail. So by the time we get to the end of the book, like where you have the World Cup, it's a little formulaic in the sense that you're going through a diary of a cricketer who's going through all these games. So I think they could not have done better with it, but it was a kind of an underwhelming sort of ending. Apart from that, I would have liked a lot more technical discussion of the game, but I completely understand why they didn't go for that. No, I agree, I was hoping a lot more for the 2011 World Cup and it's funny because you read, I was reading on my iPad and on the Kindle app and I was reading, it was like the book was on 80%. And I was like, okay, we've got 20% of the book left for just the World Cup. This is perfect. And it turns out the last 15% is just photos. And I was a little disappointed to see that it ended so quickly. I mean, I get the aspect that one, he was not a senior player and two, he did not play all the games. So his emotions of the World Cup were probably not the same as Sachin Tendulkar or you're about saying who had participated in multiple World Cups, I'd get that aspect. But yeah, it definitely felt a little rushed. He mentions smaller things like he mentions the only saying at the toss that Ashwin is mentally stronger than Pierce Chavla and he mentions how he liked that or I can't remember his exact response to that, but he mentions those little details without going into the game enough. Otherwise it felt like he was just sort of describing the scorecard. So a little underground in there, but otherwise overall a very, very good balanced book. We have another book coming up, right? So hopefully that will give us- I don't know, I'm going to come out. I think that just started, but yeah, let's hope it comes out in a few years. Yeah, but I quite liked the narrative structure of the book where they went sort of like from his childhood to his clap cricket days and then Ranji and then international. Yeah, I was- I liked that. And I think it was a good mix of, you know, narrative and technique and, you know, describing the cricket. I don't read a lot of biographies in cricket, so I don't know how much cricket they describe actually. I have no idea how much cricket they talk about, but this book had a good balance. I personally would like more of the technique discussion, but yeah, that's how it goes. I mean, most books, even documentaries for that matter, you know, to kind of sell or to kind of publicize for marketing, you know, they focus on controversies, right? And I think Ashun has had this fair share of controversial incidents, you know, quote-un-quote spirit of cricket, quote-unquote, "monkey day," all of that. Does he get into any of that at all in the book or at least related to those? I think he mentions that his dad or his grandfather, I think one of those people used to talk about marketing and they used to tell him to go for it because the batter can't steal around, right? So I think it was ingrained in him from a very young age that, you know, this is within the laws and this is how you do it. So he does talk about that, but he refers to how his dad taught him about it. Otherwise, I think it's mostly, and again, because it ends in 2011, like majority or I wouldn't say majority, but like the key portion why we can know him as a champion trigger is test-tricket and he was just starting test-tricket at that point. So that's why there's a lot to go in that second book. But the one other piece that I found very interesting was his relationship with Gotham beer and it's an interesting thing to note, not just because the beer is the Indian coach, but because I don't know if I really understood this aspect of or expected this from Gotham beer. So he's he's captaining the Indian cricket team, the beer is while Tony has been arrested. They play an ODI series against New Zealand and they win 5-1 and he goes on to tell us when that, you know, he deserved the matter of the series award and how his ability to bowl and basically any phase of the ODI innings was giving him immense flexibility and that was a key reason why they succeeded. It's a very interesting insight and because, you know, come here seems and this is all based on like Patty Upton's autobiography for that matter, where Patty Upton being the strength and conditioning and mental coach for the Indian cricket team back in the 2011 World Cup used to say that Gotham Burt was the most insecure person in the world. He was always questioning himself, he was always unhappy. If he was ranked number three in the world, he would be like, oh, I'm not a great player and things like that. And so for that person to step out of his zone and just be very, you know, constantly providing feedback to a youngster, that was, I don't think I expected that. And he did that not just when he was captain, but even in the nets when Ashwin was not playing and the extras, you're constantly telling him you're on the verge of breaking into B11 and things like that. So they have a very good relationship. Now what you should make of that as he steps into coach, I don't know, but yeah, it's good to see that, you know, that man management aspect of come here because I don't think I've read enough about him at KKR for that matter to have a strong opinion either way. You know, that's actually a good way to lead into, you know, what do you, I'm curious to hear both of your thoughts on what the future holds for Ashwin, the KKR, obviously he's, I think it's fair to say that he's at the end of his playing career. But it doesn't seem like, you know, he's going to kind of fade away. I think he still has at least a couple of years left in him at a minimum. But especially with the winds have changed in Indian cricket, like, you know, new coaches and, you know, other players of his, you know, players that he has played with over the last decade kind of slowly retiring from one format and probably will also be leaving the game in a couple of years. What is your take on what the future holds for Ashwin, how he's going to fit in this setup and what else he can accomplish before he is, before he hangs up his boots. I think when it comes to T20s or ODS for that matter, the thing is that because he can bat, he's always around the edges of selection. So people are always discussing him for a spot because if you need a bowler to take the ball away from the left hander and you need someone who bats seven, eight, he's someone who can do that. Washington Sundar hasn't really evolved his hitting to that level yet. And when it comes to bowling also, Sundar is not as good as Ashwin, I think. So he's always there and thereabouts, but it's hard for him to get selected in T20s or Mondays is what I think because people are looking to the future now. In tests, I think he'll always, you know, like be there and like, I think he has three or four years left in him. If you look at the numbers, he tends to over pitch a little bit now. And he tends to do that when he's getting into a series. So I think fitness and, you know, getting into the groove are sort of challenges for him now with his age, obviously. But I still think he has three or four years remaining. And in that time, India should look to groom someone like Sundar in his place for test cricket. Of course, cool deep as someone who is already at that level, but he can't bat as well as Ashwin does. So having Ashwin and Georgia in a test 11 in India is like a double cheat code, right? So replacing will be a hard task for India and we shouldn't expect people to replace them soon. But yeah, I think, I think he can still service India for three or four years in test cricket, although he's getting a little tired, which you can see in the data as well. Yeah, personally, I think at least a couple of years, I don't know about three to four, but I do definitely see him walking into the test 11 at least for two years. And then obviously fitness and all those factors will be key. In general, I do feel that under job at the team started transitioning like the move to Go-Go, if Amishan, Sharma, and Omeeshia, all of that was starting to say, hey, we're going to like start trusting the younger team members because we see there's enough debt there. Obviously, it's not going to be easy to replace an Ashwin, but called deep has shown good signs and then yeah, there's others that can be groomed. So yeah, definitely a couple of years of more test cricket for Ashwin, but I would really be interested to see him be on commentary, because I think he's a good speaker and although his YouTube podcast is in Tamil, but it would be fun to also see him speak in English and talk about insights because I do think he'll be a different commentator than what we are used to. He will not be really shaded and all of that and he'll make sure he talks a little more technical, a little more detail or strategic at times than some of the usual suspects that we listen to. I think coaching is obviously another thing that he would always think that somebody with this much amount of experience can probably be a good spin coach for the Indian team or maybe one of the junior teams to start with. But I think that aspect is still to be found because I don't think every player makes a good coach and an uncommon player was probably a good example of that. So that probably still depends on how he manages people and manages egos and all of that. I'm actually genuinely excited about Ashwin's post cricket and career, post playing career that is because I really see that he can be good at any one of those he chooses. I mean, you mentioned commentary obviously based on his YouTube channel. It's not just having the channel and talking to different people or just sharing his opinion. The way he does it, you see a facet of him that you don't always see on the field where he's humorous, he's deeply insightful. He actually shares his reasoning, his logic. So he's very articulate and I think we don't have a lot of that among Indian commentators. We have a lot of them who we don't have a lot of insightful commentators. And I think he would be a good fit in that coaching, you know, like again, he probably could be a coach of one of the IPL teams and do a lot. But one area that I would like to see even though I've been, I feel like we have been burned by other people that I will not name is like cricket administration. Not all, you know, like you said, you know, not all players make great coaches. I don't think all players will make great administrators. But I think he has some good ideas when he talks about the world cricket, you know, like the game at a global level, you know, he talks about women's cricket, associates cricket. He has some good thoughts, some good ideas. So it would be interesting if given the chance that is to get into administration, I think he would be impressive. So I'm actually genuinely excited to see what he will do once he is retired from the game. Before I wrap up, do you guys have any other thoughts from the book itself? Not really, but I'd like to talk about, you know, Ash himself because I had the meeting a month in Florida like a couple of years ago. And he read my article. So I met him and like he was sitting, he was talking to someone on the table and within that five minute span, the amount of cricket that he spoke. I was almost about to cry because I was realizing that I'm sitting here and this guy is just exploding with knowledge and that's, that's I think the unique thing, right? Because there are three things. So there's playing cricket, there is understanding it on a broader level and then there's communicating it. So a lot of cricket, because they're very, very skilled and they know how to do that. But to understand the game and to communicate it is very rare, does that. And I could tell that from those five minutes where I sat with him and he was just the amount of detail he went into with his scene positions and his wrist, he was just generally talking about breakfast, right? This is not not a meeting of any sort, this is just randomly talking. And I was just about to cry at that time because the amount of knowledge he just threw out there in a five minute period was astounding. And I think that's why he'll make a great commentator, he'll make a great coach. And these are things not many people can do in crickets. Fascinating cricket or fascinating individual by all accounts, especially from people who have interacted with them, including yourself in the niche. But let's give a final verdict on the book for people who are listening, who are probably considering, should I give this book a try? Because there are a lot of cricket books out there, a lot of autobiographies. Not all of them are great. And sometimes it's easy to just dismiss a cricketer's book saying what are they going to talk about? They're going to say everything that we already know about. So both of you just make your case for or against the book in terms of people giving it a try. Absolutely for. If I had to rate it, I would say nine and a half out of ten and the half point is only for the 2011 World Cup. I wish that was a lot more detailed. But other than that, it's a really great book where he's jumping from how his routine and his surroundings shaped him, then jumping into some technical details. So it's a really great mix of on-field cricket and things around him that shaped the individual or the cricketer that he is. So I would say probably, to me, it felt like a very authentic read. The last book where I felt that was probably Marcus's stress-cautics autobiography, where he was very open to being vulnerable about his insecurities, things like that. Ashwin doesn't go into that same level of detail about insecurities. But nonetheless, he's very authentic and, you know, he's always questioning the system if he thinks it's, you know, if it's, if he thinks it's not right. Yeah, same sort of rating, I think nine out of ten. And like, the thing with most biographies is that they tend to be sanitized for public consumption. With Ashwin, you get the real deal and it's very well-written. It's a nice, easy, breezy read. And you get a lot of nuggets about the cricketer and the man behind the cricketer. So I think definitely, you know, get a copy and, yeah, dig in. Perfect. For my part, I'm going to finish reading the book. That's my first goal. But again, Him and Yish, thank you so much for your time today. I know you've had a lot going on in your life and some exciting things up ahead. But appreciate your time. And don't wait another two years to come back on our pod. Now I'll be a lot more free to come, so yeah, we should do more. We should schedule more frequent appearances from you. I'm sure our listeners would enjoy that. And Mike, thank you as well for joining in today. To our listeners, you can check out, "I Have the Streets," a critique-ricut story by Ravi Ashwin and Sid Moonga. The e-book is out on Amazon and probably other bookstores where you could get them. And as I mentioned earlier, the hard cover should be out in a few months. But yes, once again, go give this book a try. You will not be disappointed. Thank you for listening to an episode of The Last Wicked. Do check out other episodes on your podcast app of choice or at TheLastWicket.com. This podcast is the Cricut Guys production, featuring your hosts, Benny and Mike. And if you enjoyed this podcast, do let a friend know, rate, and subscribe on your platform of choice. Follow us on your social media feeds and leave us a voice message. If you would like to share your thoughts with us, thank you again for listening, and from all of us here at The Last Wicked, stay safe, stay healthy. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [ Silence ]