This choir cast podcast brought to you by bros Bibles and beer. What's up friends? My name is Zach and I'm joined with my friends and podcasts host Jeff and Andy and we'd like to have serious Conversations on faith and culture while not taking ourselves too seriously on any given episode You'll find us talking with authors and pastors from around the country local community members are impacting their churches So join us every week on YouTube or your favorite podcasting app where bros Bibles and beer grace piece Cheers Today we are going to wrap up season two of honoring the journey with Gary Alan Taylor He's the host of the holy heretics podcast You've probably heard me talk about that podcast In this one just because it was such a a big help to me when I first started deconstructing But before I share a conversation, there are a few things that I just want to let you know about first of all I am officially on patreon. I am a one-woman production here I don't hire out anyone to do any of the work for me But having a podcast still costs money for production editing Distribution and recording software and of course I don't mind one bit that I've been paying for it out of my own pocket But I do think it would be a great idea to like maybe if you want to have a chance to help me cover those costs Just be a patreon subscriber It just starts at five dollars a month or you can give more whatever you feel like giving and as a thank you for anyone who joins My patreon. I'll be offering some exclusive content like interviews with some of my survivor friends A place to share and ask questions with others in the group and also a monthly get together on zoom So I'll put a link in the show notes for you if you're interested in supporting me on patreon also religious rehab is just around the corner starting in september this group coaching experience is online Once a week for six weeks and we chat about different areas of deconstruction It's also a chance for you to connect with others who are going through this experience And so if you're interested in being a part of it, please just shoot me an email at Leslie needs at gmail.com Let me know you want to be on the waitlist for religious rehab and I'll be sending out an email August 15th for all of those who want to know more about it. So all right. Well now's the time Let's welcome my friend Gary Allen Taylor and honor his life and faith journey here today on honoring the journey Hey friends welcome back to honoring the journey so glad you're with us today And I'm super excited to introduce you to Gary Allen Taylor and if you don't know that name I just want you to know it's one of the first names that I found in my deconstruction journey It's funny. I didn't even know that's what I was doing and I just I don't even remember what I searched on Apple podcasts, but holy heretics podcast came up and I kind of giggled at the name and I thought I wonder what this is about and I listened and Then started binging it just started listening it because everything that was being said was stuff that I was like Oh, yes, that's exactly what I've been thinking. Oh my gosh. I'm not the only one It was bizarre all of a sudden and so Gary Allen Taylor is the he's the host of that But he's also the founder of the Sophia Society Which I can't wait to hear more about and I think you had a co-host at the time Melanie Yep, who yeah you two were talking about things that just blew me away And I want to get into that a little bit in the podcast, but welcome to honoring the journey I feel so honored to be able to honor your journey today. Oh, well, thank you. Thank you It's great. It's you know as as we both are podcasters It's often we don't often get to be on the other side of the mic and so it's kind of fun to do this So thanks for having me. Yeah, of course. No, I'm excited. I think one of the things that really drew me to you for one thing you just have a Like a kindness and a calmness and yet you're strong in what you believe and that's really nice I think a lot of the voices that I was hearing were like angry And I'm just not that kind of person I mean of course I've gone through the anger phase and I still go through it, but but for the most part I'm just trying to be calm about it all and I felt that with you and I also felt a weird connection because I know you used to work for focus on the family and I was in Christian radio and so I did a lot of work with focus on the family so I kind of felt like here's somebody who's you know kind of been in what I've been in who has somehow broken free and now has found his voice and Yeah, it was interesting to me because I I had always felt like once I got to a certain point I would start talking more publicly about what I was going through But I wasn't quite ready to do that and I reached out to you. Do you remember this? I do yeah I was sitting out in my car in in front of the house and I think we talked for like an hour or so Yeah, we did I was so like I hung up the phone and cried because it was like oh my gosh There's a person in the world that I can talk to you know, it was just nice and I think it's the only time I talked to you I appreciate it. Yeah, I think so, but I needed I just needed a friend It was so lonely going through this and I think that's why I do what I do. I think it's why I started a podcast I think it's why I am a faith and life transitions coach I think a lot of what I do today is because of the empty sad loneliness that I felt going through deconstruction and I'm realizing you don't have to you don't have to go through it alone There are people even if you're just like the and I call it the invisible like listening to the podcast and just soaking it in But anyway, I could go on and on about how much I appreciate what you do But I want to hear from you now So I'm going to start out if you don't mind I like to get to know my my guests on more of a personal level And so I ask a question just about your life and one of the questions I well the question that I think I'm going to ask you is What can you think of a defining moment in your life where you were like, wow Things are never going to be the same and it doesn't have to be about deconstruction We can talk about that later if there was something that happened in your life where Like it felt like everything sort of stopped and you had to reevaluate even if you were young Oh boy, that's a really good question. Um I don't know that I have a perfect answer for that. I think perfect. We don't go for that here Okay, good. So the you know the thing that comes to mind is really the start of my deconstruction journey Which may not be the answer that you're looking for. No, it is. It's fine if that's it I wrote about this on our sub stack the other day. It was back in I think it was 2011 when Osama bin Laden was Captured and killed by navy seals and I was just starting in the blogging space Rachel hild Evans had sort of become famous that way and that was like, oh, this is what I want to do And I had so many thoughts. I had not yet begun my deconstruction journey. I had just left focus on the family My family and I had moved back to tennessee And I was working for milligan university my alma mater And I wrote what I thought was this brilliant sort of piece on justice and punitive justice and the wrath of god and all these things about um bringing this person to justice Um from a kind of biblical worldview perspective And it hits end it went out into the, you know, blogger universe. I think four people probably read it Um, but but one of them was my former professor Phil kennison at milligan university and he stopped me and and i'll make this short, but He said basically, hey, I read um, what you wrote. I thought it was um, you know, very well written I I just happened to you know disagree And at that moment in his I think kindness and in his ability to invite me into something deeper He introduced me to non-violence and to the fact that in my opinion, um, the god we serve is non-violent and the god we serve is best expressed through the life and teachings of jesus And not the punitive wrathful colonizing version that we often see in in scripture and from there It awakened me to a whole other version of christianity that I was never exposed to Growing up in white conservative republican evangelical spaces. Um, and so for me that was A turning point. I can still remember standing on Sutton lawn at my alma mater and having this conversation with him and it then Turned me to then asking more questions. Um, you know, what what happens with this and that and the other? So I would say that is a seminal moment in in my life. Um, And I look back on that and I do kind of wonder What would have happened if I would have responded to him defensively or um, arrogantly or In a way that pushed him away Um, the way you were taught. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like hey, we were taught to respond Right like, you know, and I think that's what happens in in our conservative religious spaces We are taught to be combative. We are taught to fight the culture war We are taught to resist any kind of pushback or alternative understanding of god And for whatever reason, I think it was mostly because of him and not me Um, I trusted him. I knew him to be a scholar I knew him to be a person who was following Jesus and I knew that he walked his walk And I realized he was further down the journey than me and maybe I should listen to him. So yeah That's the story. I'm sticking to it. Yeah. No, I love it. That's perfect I think I mean, I just didn't want you to feel like we had to go there right away But if that was your defining moment, then I honor that. I think that's beautiful And I honestly, I would say my my defining moment was that too, you know, the deconstruction But there's so many others before that that I would have thought we're defining but really we're just Refining, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, um, but yeah that that pivot. It's a tough one It's a little disorienting. Um, you get a little dizzy when you When you first do it, uh, and you start looking into things but like if somebody Is listening in there. They're like, oh my goodness. I am at the beginning of this. I just started Deconstructing, I guess that's what it's called. I don't know. I'm just asking questions and I'm looking outside of what I've been taught to look in What would you say to that person? What's the first thing you would say? You know, I would say continue to be curious. Um, sort of Ted lasso be curious not judgmental I mean, it's kind of a cliche at this point, but Trust I would also say to trust your gut We were also told in evangelical spaces not to trust ourselves not to trust our instinct and that is just Flat wrong and so listen to where you are being led. Um, trust your instincts and And find people that really are further down the road from you One of the things that I did practically is I I started asking people that I knew Um, were smarter than me and and more spiritually mature than me. What are you reading? What books are you reading and what should I read in order to kind of You know get a glimpse into your world And I began doing that. I did it with um an Episcopal priest in dallas I was working on a work trip Happened to call on him because that was my job and through the process. I was like, hey, you you seem to be Uh following Jesus in a in a radically different way than me I'm very intrigued What is one book that you would have me read to kind of move toward a more Scholarly understanding of the spiritual journey and he grabbed a book off his shelf and said I think you can I think you can handle this I went home read it and that was another one of those seminal moments Um, that probably should have been my first answer is it it changed my entire perspective on who Jesus is And uh, what it means to be a christian by reading just that one book from that one question that I ask him And it was like a what book was it? Do you mind if I ask? Yeah, it's a book by ched meyers ched meyers is a I would say a post-liberation Theologian We actually had him on our show for holy heretics and the book is a strange title. It's binding the strong man and it is a Political exegesis of the book of mark and what he does is he goes through and says well first of all the book of mark was the first gospel Um, it was written About the very earthy Human Jesus. It's radically different than the book of john, which is you know, the eternal christ universal price perspective more emotional. I feel like a john was like and mark was like to the point Like he wasn't he clearly didn't have add the way But right. Okay. I'm sorry any any wrote. Yeah, and he wrote it's it's one of the only books in antiquity that was written to and for poor people to and for a colonized group and it reframed my understanding of jesus as someone who isn't just here to Allow us to escape into eternity He was here to bring about his kingdom on earth as it is in heaven And and what does that look like socially and politically and economically and and he framed it in a way where jesus was Very much and I believe this was very much in opposition to the religious establishment and the political establishment and that's why he was killed and so It really reframed my understanding of christianity as something that was sort of gonna happen when I died Opposed to we're just passing through. Yeah. Yeah, we're passing through and it doesn't really matter And and that's actually easy for privileged white people to believe because we don't want our Perspective or our position at the center of society to be questioned and I think jesus questioned all of that He sure did and you're right and I I do I think Finding something that really connects with the kind of learner that you are is helpful too because your book was more You know and exegesis like a very intellectual, which I see that a lot in you Which is what I like because that's not really who I am But I need that you know what I mean, but the book that did that for me was faith unraveled by Rachel held Evans. Yeah, I think the story. I mean if we're gonna be specific the story She told about the muslim woman who had spent her whole life in abuse and then they publicly kill her um, I can't even remember what the woman did but it was like did something immoral or something according to the religion they publicly kill her and she said I watched this and I thought to myself How did this how why would god let her be born to be abused? To be mistreated and then die and she's going to hell Why would this like it literally I I sobbed I sobbed when I read that because I thought That is how I used to believe and I realized in that moment. That's not what I believe anymore I don't see it this way anymore and when you start questioning things like hell and you start questioning things like You know other religions, maybe, you know, maybe god would honor them trying to seek him in their own way, you know Right. What a concept. Oh, right? It's very I mean everything feels shaky When you start doing that because you're like, oh, this is the slippery slope. I've been warned about Here I go You know, I'm going down the slippery slope, but um But it to me it was like I think a defining moment like realizing that okay I have the strength in me to take this journey and I trust god enough To let me go on it Right and to see for myself for once, you know, right? So Well, tell me about you're growing up. Did you grow up in the church and what was your family like? I did. Yeah, it's a Gosh, that's four podcast episodes. I would think Let's go. Let's go. We'll do a part two a part three. Yeah Grew up. My dad was a pastor in a non-denominational church Grew up in arkansas very conservative bible belt Had some religious trauma and sort of family trauma Around that that I will probably stay away from just to protect the guilty But it was a lot of awkwardness there with my dad being a minister and just a lot of brokenness in our family and That I think that that was the impetus for all of this is really looking at What I was being told on sunday morning and preached on sunday morning and how life was lived throughout the week It just did not add up to me and so uh, you know had to work through a lot of that in my 20s and 30s a lot of scars a lot of trauma from From that experience and and unfortunately it did have a negative impact on my faith journey because I put them together And because they were that they so intertwined But yeah, and then from there went to milligan university as an undergrad Yeah at the time milligan was a pretty I would say subversive christian university. It's kind of pre-tramp pre-magical christianity pre-christian nationalism And although I was still very conservative at the time It introduced me to other ways of being and seeing and in other ways of being christian I can remember I had a sociology professor that was a democrat and he was the first christian That I had ever met that was a democrat and I just thought that that was an athema Like you can't be a christian and i used to think the same thing same thing. Yeah, and so I i'm very grateful for very small Windows that were open to me and I wasn't completely pushed out of the out of the nest too too soon But there were people and places in my journey that awakened me to the fact that my world and my view of christianity was was really small And then from there I finished a master's degree in holocaust studies and that was a whole other kind of Consistential faith crisis because we we kind of wrestled with you know, what does it mean to be human? and what does it mean to Believe in a in a good god Who allowed eight million jews to be you know murdered and and annihilated and so again That was another step toward me questioning this sort of very easy peasy um, you know Easy bake oven kind of christianity that was given to me that god is good Your life's blessed. God is you know Your your life is in his hands and he's going to direct everything and everything's just going to be great And i'm like well, it wasn't great for these people. Yeah, um, and it doesn't seem like he did anything So what does that then mean? Um, so yeah, I think there were other, you know journeys like that unfortunately I then went and worked at focus on the family for Well, I won't say unfortunately I I at the time it was what I was just I was doing the next thing like Yeah, I mean that's a big deal in the christian faith. I mean to be that's like working for like billy graham You know what I mean? Like that's a big deal. So yeah, and it was you know, it was interesting because I was young I was given a huge platform there traveled the world with the truth project which which was their christian worldview curriculum And I can I say the truth project That like if you think about it their main their main thing was to say that jesus came To testify to the truth. Yeah, not to save the world from their sin But to testify To the truth that was the main theme and I will tell you I was still deep in christianity when I saw that And I thought to myself well, that's interesting. What truth was he testifying to? Well, yeah, right. Well a very white reformed conservative republican truth I mean that's that's really what it came down to and well for them, but for me. I thought to myself That's a very broad Like what does this mean? And now that i've deconstructed and I see jesus in such a different light. I'm like, of course That is what he said those were his words. I came to testify to the truth. Sorry. I didn't know you had anything to do with that That's amazing. Go ahead. Yeah, no, it was And and that was I think another one of those Glimbers of of opening or awareness. We were Literally traveling the world and I was a part of that team that trained small group leaders and one of the lessons in the truth project Is about american exceptionalism now we didn't call it that but it was I can't remember what it was called But it was very much We are god's people. We are a blessed country because we are a good country And we are unique. Yeah, no, absolutely. Right. Yeah, that's why we're blessed And and and that was I think the first lie that I kind of woke up to and evangelical christianity Because I knew that wasn't true. I had worked on a PhD in colonial american history and I I knew who we were I knew we are an empire doing what empires do then and now Um, there was never a time when america was uniquely good There was never a time when america was a christian nation. We have enslaved people for 400 years We committed genocide against the native Pop indigenous population prop two nuclear bombs on civilian pop populations in japan I mean you can go on and on and on and on and on yeah in on and and it doesn't mean we have to hate america But it does mean that we have to be honest about who we are And so when I kept hearing that I sort of raised my hand like hey This isn't true. Um, because i've actually done the work in this you guys haven't And if if this is a lie then what other lies are you telling me and as you said then the you know the unraveling began from there You know and I think that that is one of the I've heard that so many times and I remember having that experience of Thinking if they lied about this, what else are they lying about and that's what really opened The door for me to look and seek and I didn't ever feel like I mean, I I tell the story. I've said it before on the podcast But I'll let you know like it's like I I got out of the the boat with jesus Um, you know, we were walking on the water hanging out. He was like it's going to be okay You know and I thought we were going to get back in the boat when we were done with our little conversation He was going to answer my questions but We never got back in the boat because the boat was thinking because the boat was made by man Not by the hands of god and the boat the boat was the church for me the evangelical white You know christian church bible belt, which was all I knew And um, you know, and I do think when you get to that point where you're like wait The thing the the question for me was Of when trump when they started basically worshiping this man Um, and I could not In good conscience figure out what the heck is happening. I felt like I was losing my mind I'm like, what is how do you really and then I was like wait? Okay. Wait if they are this deceived about this guy What else have they taught me right that is bullshit? I just was so upset and I I literally and like I I really thought I was going to find answers and end up back at church and everything But like the the answers that I found them like they've been lying about a lot and I don't think they're doing it intentionally It's all they know they're they're literally their heart is in the right place. They think they're doing the right thing Um, it's just passing down tradition instead of actually doing the work and figuring out what do you believe? What do you really believe? What what is true? And the only truth that I can find is the life of christ the the love that he showed to people That's the truth for me. And if something goes against that then to me, that's not truth I mean, it's just me so simple. I like I said, I'm not a scholar. I'm very very emotional and relational And so for me that that's how I've kind of Come I don't know. Yeah. No, I I 100% agree if you know if what we are doing doesn't look like jesus I don't why are we doing it and it doesn't make any sense to me either. Yeah Well, yeah, and I see that in your life. So you were asking the questions and you were like this cannot be true So you're at focus in the family What happened? Why did you leave and like what did they want you to leave? Yeah, no that That's another job. They did want me to leave and I can tell that story, you know, if focus this was back in 2010 Um, the economy was, you know in the crapper Focus was going downhill really fast and we were sort of at the end of this truth project run And I kind of saw the writing on the wall like this is not gonna last and I was also just uncomfortable I didn't have any language for it, but I just knew I can't be in these spaces anymore or at least I can't be in this really really conservative space And so I got an offer to to go back to milligan university and and work there Um, and then my wife and I and our kiddos came back to colorado and I'd say really the more interesting story is deconstructing as the main content person for a small nonprofit here in coloros rings whose name is axis a xis and I joined them in 2014 right when I was beginning to unravel and and and deconstruct although that the word didn't Wasn't around at that point. Yeah Um, and they kind of positioned themselves as the kind of cooler version of focus on the family They were a team they are a teen Parenting organization and do actually do a lot of good stuff. There's some wonderful people there So I want to couch all of this with with grace and um And some humility and yet At the end of the day when when trump the trump train came down the track they were Moving more and more conservative in in my myself and melony mudge who helped me found the sofia society in here and holy heretics We were moving in the opposite direction. We were asking questions about why the church is homophobic We were asking questions about christian nationalism We were wanting to talk about white supremacy and every time we would create something and produce something We just received so much backlash and I finally got to a point um where I was really the resident heretic and and I don't think I handled that very well I was kind of in the anger stage of my construction. That's so And it was also a really toxic organization at that point um to Individuals that were leading it that I think meant well, but we're not really prepared Theologically and emotionally and and and spiritually to lead an organization and it was a very patriarchal um ministry Right, right and and all you know all the white men were in charge and all the women were in Subservient roles seen but not heard and don't be seen too much. Make sure you have that button up, you know Yeah, yeah, exactly and so I was I was basically dismissed from from that organization in in a in a really um Unfortunate scenario. It was a great great thing for me. I I had been praying for about eight months. Lord get me out of here And you know, he said all right. Okay. Fine. I know you're you're good um And then that kind of that was right before covid And went through a really spiral stage Emotionally behaviorally spiritually for just a couple of of years You know, I was out of work for about a year Um, and when you have lived your entire professional life and evangelical Christianity and they kick your ass to the curb It's very hard to um Remake your image and and rebuild yourself because this is all you've known and you know when you apply to places They're like wait you worked at focus. You must be a wacko And it's like no, no, no. I that's why i'm not there anymore And you know, and I think that's another one of the harmful things within evangelicalism. It is Uh, it functions like a very loosely knit cult, you know, we we all go to the same schools We go to the same churches. We work at the same place We marry the same people and we live in our little enclaves and and when you are thrown out of that You know, I I like to say with evangelical christianity you get in by belief and you get out by belief And I was very much kicked out by belief and so just trying to find some footing Um, not only spiritually, but just professionally, you know, where do I work in actions and community. I mean, it was all Everything gone shot to hell like in an instant. It's so so disorienting and difficult And especially in this town, you know, cholera springs where where we live. I would continue. It reminds me. Oh, yeah I think I call it the mecca of evangelical christianity and I would see, you know, former Friends and co-workers at both axis and focus at starbucks or at the gym and you know, they look at me like I've lost my mind and You know the the the flip side of that was like no I'm actually for the first time thinking for myself pursuing jesus for the right reasons And i'm on the right path here and but you're just a pariah you know, you are You are the scapegoat that is sent out into the wilderness and and we don't really want to be near you because you might infect us as well Absolutely. Wow. You're like describing my life right now. That's how I I mean they didn't really kick me out. I left Um, I left honestly my initial leaving was to protect them Isn't that just so twisted? We are so indoctrinated to think that everything is our fault that even my own questioning I was like you need to protect these people from you So I left courage so that I wouldn't infect them because I thought I would I was like something is wrong with me whatever and now i'm just like, oh no I think I left to protect myself. It felt like I was doing something self-righteous But in reality, I just needed to get out so that I could learn to think for myself You know, it's that that neuroplasticity in that in those spaces Is so so intense and you don't even realize it until you get out of it because like the first questions people ask you Like are you in a bible believing church? Are you surrounding yourself? Are you in fellowship with other believers? I call that the f-word because it just drives me nuts Well, then bible believing it's such code. It's such code for if it's not in the bible in a true Well, if it's not in english in literal Like in my view right the way that we say it means which every denomination is so different and I don't know. It's just so It was very disorienting for me and um, and I I I can't even imagine because like i'm not the the main You know, breadwinner for my family or by any lack of you know, whatever, but If if that would have been me if I would have been like, you know Responsible for keeping my family alive after doing that would have been very very difficult for me Yeah, it was I it was not good, but in many ways It it was a wonderful thing for me because I needed to deal with a lot of shit that was still in my life and You know sometimes when you fail and when there is nothing left Okay, I got to deal with this now and Yeah, I you know, I never like to say oh bad things, you know, that was God's will and and see look how much better you are I don't believe that I do believe that there are moments in your life where you come to the end of who you are And it's time to to you know, it's death and resurrection um for me I In many ways died during that time and and and I needed to die there were so much of me That needed to die in order to be reborn and to move forward So in a weird way. It was good for me. You know morning. Yeah, there's a mourning period Yeah, I I just finished my book. It's called honoring the journey the the deconstruction of sister christian Because that's what they called me. Thank you That was what I that's what they called me on survivor when I was on survivor They called me sister christian and and I was known, you know, it was the christian radio host, you know, jesus loving Pollyanna, you know, I was just always sharing the gospel I was such an evangelist because I was terrified for people like oh my gosh You're gonna go to hell if you don't do this. Oh my gosh. So like how do how do christians? Not do that like I can't like if you really believe that there's a hell you should never shut your mouth about it You know what I mean? And that's how I felt and that's it was it was it ate away at me Because I felt like I'm it was never enough but so like but I do describe in my book how I had there was a point where I had to sort of like have a Just almost like imaginary funeral service for sister christian Because it's just not who I am anymore and that's okay And I used to I I say I used to stomp on her grave because it just kind of angered me how naive and how Pollyanna and how like dogmatic, you know, I was but But since I've dealt with a lot of the the feelings that come with deconstruction, especially the grief process um now i'm leaving her flowers, you know and thanking her for Teaching me what it's like to really love somebody a hundred percent with your whole heart and how to surrender to something and how to you know Fight for what's right. Yeah, she taught me a lot, but she's not who I am anymore. And that's okay, right? I think what you bring up is something really important that I have struggled with and I see a lot of people struggling with is We are so raging against our former selves and our former community that we we haven't yet unified that experience that There's In many ways, I'm very thankful for that early container of Christianity because it got me to the second stage and How do I take where I am now and where I was? And and bring them into a holistic understanding of of the journey as opposed to just You know pooping on everything that was there because it's not all bad, you know, it's not it's not all bad And it feels like it for a while. Yeah, and and I think that A healthy perspective and it takes a long time to get there and I'm there I'm there some minutes and not the other but a healthy perspective Brings it all in together and says this is my story um And I can be grateful for the parts of christian evangelicalism that shape me in a beautiful way And introduce me to things that I would have never experienced of I didn't have that And like, um, you know someone who needs to graduate from kindergarten I moved on and But i'm glad I had kindergarten because it gave me a foundation and that's that's kind of the way I'm hoping to to experience it and and talk about it more As opposed to just burn it all down because I just don't think that that's healthy Well, and when you burn it all down, you're also burning bridges with people who You know who you love and who you know, maybe they're deceived or maybe they're doing you're believing something that might be harmful For other people but they're never going to come to you if they feel like you're just angry all the time And you're not going to be able to have a conversation And so that's kind of what I do here on honoring the journey is i'm trying to honor every journey and i've had people Who are evangelical christians? I've had people who are more men. I've had people who have left both of those religions I've had you know Islam like I just want to hear because I feel like that's the The place that that has been so satisfying for me In deconstruction is hearing the journeys of other people without feeling like I need to make them believe exactly the way I do Right. Yeah. Yeah, and I Oh, no, and and I think that that's another temptation within, you know, the deconstruction spaces Well, I've figured it out and so I need to tell you and and I struggle with that for me I I realized that i'm still a zealot in many ways You know when I find something to be true for me I think everyone should find it to be true for them and and I have that is so much a part of my Evangelical upbringing, you know, and and I have to let that go You know, I might think uh non-violence is the way to go I might think that being an episcopalian is the way to go post evangelicalism I might think x y and z that doesn't mean that everyone else that's what their journey is and so I really have been convicted by that Recently of like, okay, you need to stop being Prescriptive and how you talk about the faith deconstruction journey because it's not the same for everyone And some of us go radically different ways and you know what that's all right. God's in that with them Yeah, it's your journey like and I I was just talking to my dad the other day and you know, he's very Evangelical christian even very different than I am but he listened And he was very kind and I said dad if you really really trust god You have to believe that he's got me You know that god has me or she I didn't say that to him because he would like roll over Yeah, but but like god has me and and Says that he's not going to give up on me until the day of completion. So like i'm okay It may look different, you know, and I think at the end of the conversation He was like, you know, I'm not sure I agree with everything but but I I'm gonna trust and it felt really good because I You know, it's just so hard to have those conversations with people who you love who are still You know in that that thought process, which is fine But it's it can be difficult. Do you have people in your family that are still? Oh gosh. Yeah, I mean My my mom and dad think i'm nuts. They've I think they finally come to an understanding that I'm just on a journey that they will never understand My sister and her my her my brother-in-law is an evangelical pastor And so I know there have been times that it feels like i'm attacking him And just being in the space and and sometimes I was, you know, it's just being an asshole And Yeah, and and now i'm trying to recognize, you know, this is really awkward because I am questioning So many things that their entire lives are built around and Learning to do it more gracefully learning to do it in a way that isn't personal While also I can't help not talk about this because I do find it to be incredibly You know incredibly harmful And so yeah, it's it's not easy. It is really hard. The balance is difficult, but Well, um, we're gonna take a very quick break and as soon as we come back I will talk to you a little bit more about Kind of what you're up to these days and Sophia society. I want to know a little more about that The direction holy heretics is going in. I would love to just discuss a little bit more about what's next for Gary allen Welcome back to you honoring the journey. I'm here today with Gary allen taylor the host of holy heretics podcast This podcast is the first one that I found when I was deconstructing and didn't even know that's what I was doing Um, I wish man Gary allen. I really wish I could remember the word that I put in and searched And your your podcast came up. But you know, I I think I don't think I want to know Questioning faith or something. You know, I'm like there's gotta be somebody who believes this way Um, but anyway that one of the first little series that you all did you and melony was about the unholy trinity And you know what it was like i'm getting chills right now It was so impactful For me that I thought I can't have you on this podcast and not have you just talk a little bit about that. Do you mind? Oh, yeah, you know and and we I think that was our first episode or second episode. Yeah, it was very Yeah And we honestly we had no idea what we were doing. I mean I can remember we're looking back in terms of podcasting But we felt both melony and I both felt like that there was this unholy trinity that um was the bedrock for all of white evangelical uh christianity and it was um purity culture A power and patriarchy and how all three of those work together in sort of a hierarchical cascading way to center and to create systems of domination and oppression and When you look at it, evangelical christianity is a movement of purity and not just sexually it's you have to all believe the same things And so there are levels of being centered and there are levels of being marginalized based on the fact that Are you white male cisgender and heterosexual? Well, if if you are if you tick all of those boxes then that you are at this center of evangelical christianity And so for for us It just kind of made perfect sense when you step back and look at the hierarchy at the structure at the beliefs of evangelicalism and frankly it's gotten even worse and I think that it is Personified itself in the presidency of donald trump. He is a patriarchal misogynist He is all about consuming and protecting his power And he is creating a vision of america that truly is a vision of purity culture And there are levels of being in and in levels of being out based on you know If you are a person of color if you are a person of a different faith if you are an lgbtqia person and and there are kind of stratospheres of alienation that take place so so that was I think kind of our first aha moment that all of these work all these work together To create I think a dominator version of religion And there are winners in that system and there are a whole lot of losers in that system and most of the losers are women In anybody who doesn't really fit that, you know that that scenario. Yeah, right? No, it was Very very powerful. So I highly recommend Um those episodes. I mean all the episodes were good, but that those were the ones I think It was probably one of the first ones I listened to where I was like oh my gosh people are saying things that everything you said I was like Because it was stuff that I had already thought. I didn't know how to put it into words I was like what is happening in my heart right now? Um, and it really really made me um I don't know it gave me such a set I just cried because I was like it is so Powerful when you realize you're not insane because that's unfortunately You know You're taught if you feel this way if you start to question if you start to think the way that I was thinking if you're reading Rachel held Evans or rob bell you definitely have a demon. You know like you are you are going down the wrong path and so And even though I knew that wasn't true There was that it's like the angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other literally I feel like evangelical Leslie or sister christian is on one shoulder and then like My true self is on the other and they're both just constantly trying to help me Navigate my life and sister christian was just out of control and all this started. She was like girl No, you're going to kill people. You're going to send them to hell like it was so hard And then finding your podcast. It was like the first time I could just breathe And I don't even know if you even realize the impact that What you and melonie did and and when she left I cried. I was like, no, wow, I did you know She's just so great. I mean just so she's very she's a lot like me very emotional very um And like really just wants to love people, you know, and and I loved you don't get me wrong But like like I said, you're you're more scholarly and which is great But the balance was so fantastic. So but anyway, I agree good. I was to you melonie way to go. I know yeah We were such a I drove her crazy, but we were such an amazing team because we we didn't step on each other We were on the same journey But we were taking kind of two parallel tracks and and paths and we just we had a blast, you know Creating this and sharing that journey because we had been together Working at at access at this former evangelical community Our organization and so it was kind of fun We kind of looked at each other was like I think we can create something that's what we wanted to do there But they wouldn't let us do right and let's just try it. So yeah, it was it was a it was a lot of fun It is so hard to redefine who you are when the definition of who you are is basically wrapped up in theology and dogma um And so who does to you all for finding your way and and also showing that it's possible to do that I think I was scared too. I think I you know and being known as sister christian very much into bible studies. I wrote bible studies. I taught bible studies I was always speaking and doing the thing and so like coming away from that I'm like who even am I anymore and do I even have a purpose and is god gonna This was scared me to death and tell me if this ever crossed your mind is god going to take my gifts away Because i'm speaking different than what I was taught And I was so afraid of that Yeah, I didn't think that I actually looked back and was remorseful for Using my gifts to harm people Yeah, I didn't know I was harming people and you know, I can remember standing on stages and saying stuff and i'm like You arrogant so be you had no business Talking about this to anyone. So I think for me it was just a moment of Of remorse and sadness that I had been a part of a system that had also harmed people And I don't know how to go back until those folks. I'm sorry. Um, I think you're doing it by what you're doing Gary Ellen I really do and I and and honestly, that's where I met today But when I first started this process Evangelical ugly like I said she was very loud and obnoxious and like, you know And so but now I'm now that I've put her to rest I'm like, okay, how can I make it better? How can I how can I take what I've done? You know, the voice that I had that did bring You know oppression and harm and and shame to people How can I redeem that not to use a churchy word, but that's what it is And so that's why i'm doing this and that's why you know when my book is released at the end of the year I'm going to read it myself. They were like, we'll have somebody read it and i'm like, I can't It needs to be my voice because I have said enough things That I think have have put Um, the handcuffs on people. I'm ready to sort of unlock those And so that's where I'm at but so tell me a little bit about so Sophia society. What do you what are you there for? What do you guys do there? Yeah, you know, we created it Kind of sounds corny now, but really a safe sacred space for spiritual misfits for people who were longing to um Take a deep dive be introduced given language for what they were experienced and and also do it in a way one of the things that We were both very adamant about the word Sophia was kind of the foundation of what we were doing And Sophia obviously is translated to be wisdom And I never saw a lot of wisdom in evangelical christianity I saw a lot of winning and I saw a lot of apologetics and I saw a lot of facts But that just doesn't get you very far. And so we wanted to introduce and invite people into a more um A deeper stream a more mysterious stream of christianity A more ancient stream that had more to do with Unknowing than knowing And and and so for us the name and the brand and you know everything that we were trying to create was Invitational and open-ended and there wasn't necessarily a direct path And and I hope that you know, we've been able to continue Well, I say we or we it's me I hope that i've been able to continue to Just offer a place that's like hey, I have no idea where this is going myself Because i'm on the journey as well, but I do know that I want to do it. I want to walk humbly Um lightly And with an air of wonder and and mystery to what's next as opposed to inviting someone into a very Prescriptive path that we have laid out for them that they just have to walk and right so that was kind of part of the process Everything that uh christianity was for me was just Check this box. Check this box. Okay, you're good. You know, you said the prayer. Yay. You're saved. You know, like boy. That was easy Yeah, and it's done, you know, and it's just you just hang it on and it's not really But no, it's done But then like you just kind of have to like suffer through this world because it doesn't matter. It's not our home and then eventually you'll be you know In the in the presence of god and it's like no, we're actually in the presence of god all the time Right and the presence of god is in us all the time. Yes, knowing that mystery I think that I love the word mystery right now the with those those words you said like mystery and Triosity That just makes me it makes my soul feel like there's a fresh cool breeze going through it You know what I mean? Like yeah, that just feels so right to me and and it's fun to actually have feelings now and not stuff I'm away because they're dangerous and they lie, which is what I was not Don't have feelings. It doesn't matter what you feel. It doesn't matter what you think and it's funny I know there are a lot of times in this podcast I will say well, I think and I'm like as soon as I say that my evangelical friends are going to turn it off because they don't give a crap What I have to say right because it doesn't matter what you think. What does the bible say? You know, right? Yeah, and it's I think Oh, and you know, we've robbed personal experience from our spiritual Formation we we think that god speaks from a top-down god only speaks in the bible and That's just you know, one that's a historical. I mean Christians for the last 2000 years have not believed that they have believed that personal experience and Divine encounters of the sacred are just as important if not more so than what is in a text. Um, and so just allowing yourself to Experience the the sacred or the divine or whatever is comfortable. You know calling that in nature in a flower on a hike is just as critical. I I saw something yesterday on social and I will butcher it, but it said, um, I was Waiting to talk to god Um, and I was waiting for words and she spoke in flowers and I missed the conversation And I thought that was such a beautiful way of introducing the fact that God is with us as you said all the time. Um, God is often better found outside of of a flat text and And being open to that is is part of it. I think this journey as well And it's beautiful and and I feel like at this point in my life. I'm like wow. I really You know, it's it. I don't regret where I was. I don't I like I said, I've learned to kind of accept to that was part of my process Um, but I I've really just I I'm able to really enjoy Every moment now in a such a deeper way because I don't feel like oh gosh. Did I do something to make god mad? Oh gosh is he like I remember someone preaching this once where like every sin you commit is like a brick You know, and and you're like building this wall between you and god and then you're like Did I commit a sin and I just don't remember and like you're just so stressed out all the time Like I gotta get this right and god's just like no, no, no, no Yeah, I'm good. I'm always here. You're I your loved my child right where you are, you know, and Freaking life changing, you know what I mean freaking my changing And I would never go back. I just wouldn't and I don't think I don't think anybody who's tasted Like what it means to actually have the freedom that jesus You know gives like who's ever tasted that is not going to go back to you know the The dogma and the bondage. It's just too much. Yeah, too much. I agree totally agree But I do feel a little bit like we're kind of like the dragonflies that hover over the water To tell the the nymphs in the darkness that they can be free to Like we don't want to go too far Because we want to we want to let them like look at our wings. They're shining guys. You like you can be free too Yeah, you gotta bust out, you know, come on. Come on And it's not that I think I can convince anybody But I do want to be there for somebody who realizes it on their own I want them to know that there are people that they can talk to you and I I have felt very welcomed and and very seen I saw your I saw your wings scary allen. I saw them. They were shimmering and I was like I can be free. This is this can happen. So Yeah, thank you. I don't even think I might even cry like No, it's well, I It's it's very humbling to hear and So I I really appreciate that. I I feel like we you know in what you are doing and it's very similar We're we're just here because we have such a passion for I think a bit a bigger more beautiful transformative path and We long for others to experience it in in in their own way and Yeah, just to to hear that is I don't it kind of gives me goosebumps to know. Hey, we we made a difference, you know, and That's beautiful. That's just one life and like how many lives can I now? Yeah, because of that like it's we're we're all in this together. I think in the more the more of us who Find the courage to break out and hover above the water the more of us who do that are going to be, you know I don't know. It's it's keep thinking. It's a scripture like Freedom for the captives like yeah, there is freedom to be had in deconstruction and it is not destruction You know, I hate that it's so close to that word because I know right. Yeah, it it is such the opposite of that I feel like I'm finally I feel like I'm rebuilding something that was destructive and And it's beautiful. Yeah, you know, I I don't really like the word deconstruction anymore either I think it was helpful for a while. Um, I I just did a podcast this this Season on rewilding and I feel like the rewilding my faith is a lot more Inspirational than deconstructing and and maybe that's a part of it too is like, okay I have to tear down the bad, but then I now I don't just want to rebuild from a pragmatic perspective I want to open myself up to the fact that there is no building It's just wild and free and and let's walk together through that So that's kind of a word that I've been gravitating to lightly Um as opposed to even the word reconstruction because that just still feels very Nomadic to me and very like a lego set like it's already been predetermined and you just got to rebuild Yeah, like no, I want to rewild because wild is fine mine. I want to find what's mine Yeah, I don't want to I feel like if you reconstruct you're doing you're putting it back together the way So yeah, I don't know like finding it for yourself Figuring out what it is that works for you and and that used to be a scary thing for me to say or hear You know, like my truth. I would be like, oh, there is no my truth That's got you know, it's one truth and that's it and it's like well. No, but some things can be true for people You know, it depends on everything about their personality where they were brought up what their values are what their family was like You know We're all just so individual and I think being able to just be that individual instead of trying to fit into a A square pet, you know a square peg in a round hole. Just go ahead and be yourself like pour the mold in Right, you know, don't try to shove something that's already molded into something that's just not going to work But um, wow, this has just been so great and I I knew it would be I knew I'd love this because I I do appreciate so much what you what you bring to the table like the just the depth and the the time that you spend In researching that, you know, you're not just like spitting stuff out You're really you're ruminating and thinking through a lot of this stuff and And I appreciate that as somebody who has a hard time with the you know more Scholarly And i'm not trying to say i'm stupid because i'm not i'm very i'm smart and I do my I do my studies I do my thing, but i'm also very I I would if I was to write a book about deconstruction, which I did Um, but I would probably have to call it. No, you know, like deconstruction for dummies Like I want to I want to make it something Easy for you know people on the sixth grade level, you know to yeah You to understand that's just who I am but in order to be that person I also need people in my life like you and you know so many other oh my goodness So many great people that have been on this show like tom board. Oh my word. Oh my gosh, right? But I mean, I literally I could have talked to him for like all days. So good Um, you know, just people who are willing to offer Just there wisdom, which is great. So Well, I Absolutely and and before I go, I have to give credit to my wife for being the spiritual Leader in our home for always being out out in front of she's always been out in front of me Um, she was always seeing things that I I just couldn't see based on my ego or Blindness and so much of this is because of her she went down a very mystical spiritual journey and I just sort of you know Bread crumbed along behind her and would pick up books that she was reading and so I I give all the credit for to her and for her journey for not giving up on Christianity herself For and for not giving up on me when I was ready to give up on all of it. So It sounds really corny to say but she definitely has is the impetus behind all of this And and she does it all very privately. She does it all outside of the You know, I've I've deconstructed and reconstructed very publicly and a lot of times that's Just been frustrating for our family and she's done it all very gracefully and graciously and very privately Um, so yeah, you should have her on at some point. I was getting ready to Show a lot better than me. So I was getting ready to say, okay. Gary allen. Um, no offense, but Yeah, yeah, I think you need to talk to your wife now. You need the a team on. Yeah, you don't need me. I'm serious Like what will you ask her if she'd be willing? Yeah, I will. I would love love to hear. I love the mystic Um christianna. I think it's so beautiful and so it just speaks to me Yeah, and such a depth. Yeah, I'll talk to her. Okay, that would be awesome. She'll probably say no, but you know, oh Maybe if I was very proud, I said pretty please No, I if she doesn't want to try to get it, but that would be really cool. So thank you so much And if you want to find you online Gary allen. Yeah, oh gosh. I'm terrible at this so Sophia society.org is kind of our main page and then holy heretics Is the podcast we also have a sub stack? I've kind of migrated a lot of our written content Content and our digital stuff over to sub stack because it's just easier to deliver. So that's holy heretics.substack.com Is where we're going and we are going to launch Season five of the show in october So right now kind of on a little bit of a a summer break. I realize we have to be evergreen here, but we're um Gonna gonna launch season five in october. So that's exciting. Yay Do you have a game yet or are you just gonna? You know, I don't I I'm sort of still ruminating on that um and and trying to figure out what's next so but yeah, but Leslie Thank you so much for for letting me be here. Thank you for your work and for your show and for your voice Um, it's it's just great to bump into each other and realize that we're all we're you know I think what I love about the deconstruction space is we're not in competition with one another we're simply here to serve an audience that might find us or gravitate to us and We're all kind of doing a lot of the same things, but we do it in our own way and and I think that's what's so beautiful about it all I totally agree and I I could not wait to introduce my listeners to you. They probably already know you but in case they don't Well, you have a great day. Thank you so much and gary allen. I honor your journey. Oh, thank you Thank you so much You You [MUSIC PLAYING]
