This Choircast broadcast is brought to you by Morning's with Schleiermacher. Conservative devotionals are rule-oriented, they focus on a Bible verse a day, and they're often made of the opinions of a Mika Church pastor. How is morning different? It's idea-oriented, it focuses on experiencing God every day, and contains insight from the Father of modern theology. Morning's is a progressive devotional made by progressives for progressives. Check out Morning's with Schleiermacher today. Today we're going to honor the journey of marriage and family therapist Molly LeCroy, but before I share this fascinating interview, I just want to mention a few things. For one thing, if you're interested in leaving a voicemail for me about honoring the journey, or if you even have a question or something you just want to say or share, please go to the show notes and click on the link to do so. Your voice actually may be used on the podcast just to heads up, but I will not mention your name if you don't want me to. Also, if you're interested in a group coaching experience with others who are going through deconstruction, my program called Religious Rehab is coming again this fall in September. I'll be sending out an email mid-August with further details, so if you want to be a part of it, just send me an email, LeslieMies@gmail.com. Let me know you're interested in religious rehab. I'll put a link in that email address to the show notes. And if you want to be a part of theology beer camp coming in October in Denver, Colorado, make sure when you register, you use my code journey2024. You can say $50 on that registration fee. Thanks so much, everyone. Here's my conversation with the lovely Molly Le Croix on honoring the journey. Welcome to honoring the journey. I'm LeslieMies and I am your tour guide through another amazing journey that we get to honor today. And today I'm super excited because I have been reading about Molly for a while. And Molly, I see your name on line. Le Croix, is that right? Is that why you say it? Okay, Molly Le Croix, I've never said it out loud or heard it saying Molly. I'm reading about Molly because she likes to help people on their journeys. And so today, not only do we get a treat of just getting to know her on a personal level, but we also get to hear some things and how she's helping other people through their journeys. So Molly Le Croix is a, she's a licensed marriage and family therapist, and she actually really specializes in internal family systems, which I want her to touch on a little bit in the second half. I think that'll be fun. And then she's also, she's from Oregon, she likes to hike and she likes downhill skiing. So Molly, we already have so much in common. Good. I live in Utah, so I love to ski as well. Awesome. It's a love-hate relationship. I didn't put skis on until I was 49. And then, oh goodness, yeah, I got to see her, you know, the fear of death, you know, it's there. She deters into them, Molly. But Molly's also written a couple of books, one of them called Journey to Shalom. And I love this subtitle, Finding Healing Holness and Freedom in Sacred Stories. Oh my gosh, I got chills again. Every time I read that, I get a chill because there's something so, so, so special about hearing somebody's story. And I know I don't take it lightly that people really do get vulnerable on the show. And I appreciate that. And so, treating them with such a sacred, I don't know, I just love treating a story as sacred is beautiful. So, welcome to Honoring the Journey, Molly. How are you doing today? Well, thank you. I'm doing great. It's a beautiful day. Here's up and down. So, to kick things off, Molly, I've been doing something fun for season two. I did not prep you for this. So, but it's just a fun little question to get to know you, to get to know you as Molly, the person, not the family therapist, not, you know, the writer. But here's my question. It's a different question for everyone. So, what did you want to be when you were a child? And why? You know, I wish I had a spectacular answer for that. You don't need, but I really didn't, I wasn't one of those kids who had a, I want to be this when I grow up, until maybe high school. And then I wanted to be a doctor. And I was pretty good at science. And I worked at a lab. A medical lab when I was in high school. Back in the day, I'm sure you couldn't do that now, but, you know, they trained me to be a phlebotomist. And I ran some lab tests and I thought, I know, I'm sure these days that they can go to school for that. But I don't know. So, I did start out in college pre-med, but I rather quickly shifted gears. Yeah. So, basically what you're telling me, what I'm reading into this, is that you've always wanted to help people. Yes, that was fair. And I recognized, I was, I was still drawn to health care. You know, I don't know if we're talking about my previous professional life yet, but I was in health care administration for 10 years and, and loved it. I loved being in a clinical setting. Most people say, ah, I don't want to ever go in a hospital. I actually worked and wanted loved it. So, well, that's good. I'm glad you liked it. I do want to tell you, I do have some dogs. I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do with them. They do their thing. And sometimes they're my co-host. So, I apologize. I try to keep them as happy as I can. Okay. So, if I hear them, just, just so you know, folks, they're in another. Thankfully, my office is secluded from where the dogs are. This is as secluded as I can get from my dogs right now. But anyway, yeah, I think I may have to at some point take them to doggy daycare and schedule all my interviews on that day, because they've been, they've been a little into being my co-host lately. So, um, anyway, yeah, like they want to share their stories. Yeah. We want to, we want to share our stories, mom. Can you honor our journey? Um, well, anyway, okay. So, did you grow up in Oregon or where did you grow up, Molly? No, we moved all over the place. Uh, my dad was a, an engineer with Procter and Gamble, but it was like being in the military. So roughly every three years or so, we relocated all over the country. And then we lived in Germany. I was in Germany for junior high and part of high school, which was a fantastic experience. And then we moved back to the States. So, wow. Well, I can kind of relate. My dad was in the military. So we moved and I lived, I went to high school in Okinawa. So yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting experience. It does. And, and we all, I embrace change, which I think is both my personality and my experience. And also, my most difficult season of life was after one of those moves. So it's, it's a lot for a child to constantly relocate and be the outsider. And usually it worked pretty well, but not the time we moved in the middle of high school. Oh, that's really hard. Not a good time to have to move. Yeah. Oh, I can't imagine. Yeah. We actually moved to Okinawa, my, you know, the right before my ninth grade year. And when we were there, my dad got an extension so that we could graduate from there because we were like nice because I mean, it was so scary to move to another country right as you're starting high school. But then when we got there, we loved it. It was like, don't be able to, you know, and so it was nice. So you mentioned you had a hard time, a struggle. What was, what happened, Molly? Well, you know, we moved after my sophomore year of high school. So I'm smack dab in the middle of high school. And we moved, the culture could not have been different from the intern. It was, it was technically a department of defense school that we attended because we were in bond, which at that point was the capital of West Germany. And it, but it functioned more like an international school because all of the embassies were in bond. Most of the embassy kids came to our school. So we had 32 nationalities represented among 400 children kindergarten through 12th grade. So it was an incredible experience. We traveled constantly because traveling in Europe, everything is very close to close by the other car. And we were five hours from Paris and two hours from Brussels and, you know, and then we moved back to the Midwest and, and which is fine, you know, a lot of people love living in the Midwest, friendly people. But I just, it was such a culture shock. And, and of course, kids had been together their whole life. And while they were, some of them were polite, they were really interested in, in bringing someone new into their, into their lives as far as being close friends. And my strategy from a very young age for adapting to change was to identify a special friend. And the earliest memory I have of doing that was when I was three and a half. And my younger brother and sister are twins and they were born. And I had a five year old sister. So she's five. I'm three and a half. My mom has twins, my poor mother. So not surprisingly, there wasn't a lot of her left for me. And that young age, I found a woman who lived on the cul-de-sac near our house. And I would coddle over to her house by myself and visit her. Her name was, her name was Minnie. And so when my first grandchild was born, I now have four. I decided to be Minnie to my grandchildren because that woman was such a special person to me at a season of life where I just needed that nurturing that I have a wonderful mother. But, you know, you only have so much. Yeah, I mean, she's busy. Yeah. And so my strategy every time we moved, as I reflected back at one point, I had a special friend every place we lived. And when I came back middle of high school, I never had that special friend in that season. It just, it was just a tough season of life. And so my primary adaptation wasn't available to me. And, you know, lots of, you know, those are hard years. I don't care what's happening here. I don't care if you're in this same place. Yeah, yeah. So who knows? Some of what I went through, I might have gone through anyway. But it just, it was a tumultuous time. And I didn't have the, as, you know, with most teams, you don't have the wherewithal to understand what's going on inside of yourself. And so it was just a tough season. Did you, did you grow up in church at all with your family? Or was that something you were introduced to later? Good question, because I was about to say, and I didn't have that spiritual resource to worry on me. I did not. My family was nominally culturally Christian, but we didn't even go to church on Christmas and Easter. So I however, see a thread from an early age, friends who, who did, you know, some of my good friends would take me to Sunday school or, and at one point when I was in high school, somebody gave me one of CS Lewis's books, "Mere Christianity," and I was intrigued. And so there was interest there. Yeah, there was interest there. I saw it out of church when I was first in college, and I was struggling still, you know, still processing all those changes that I experienced. And so I didn't come to faith until I was an adult, but it was a, it was kind of a gradual process of God being with me along the way. Yeah, and you recognizing that? Yeah, with hindsight. Yeah, and the hindsight, you see it the time you were like, I don't know what's happening. Well, that's interesting. So tell me a little bit about your faith. Where, where do you stand now? And has it been something that has always been with you since you, I guess, came into it? Or is this like, is it getting stronger? Where are you at with your faith? Yeah, well, I, I have long recognized that there are obviously pros and cons to not being raised in the faith, but given what I now know of how much spiritual wounding has occurred in, in some church spaces, I'm very thankful that I wasn't in an environment that was harmful. Yeah. And I coming to faith as an adult, I, I had a lot of questions. I already had certain perspectives, and I went to a church. It was only the second church I tried. I went and they had a female pastor. So it was a Presbyterian Church USA, PC USA, so they have firm women in leadership. And I had tried to talk to other male pastors, but she was the first one that actually was patient with me. We just kept meeting. She, I'd have a question. She'd answer the question. What do they think about this? And so that was super helpful to me. And, and, and I have, for the most part, been in PC USA churches. I don't adhere to what people think of as traditional Presbyterian doctrine in terms of Calvinism. I'm in a very progressive Presbyterian Church at this stage of my life. I did, I have sojourned into some fairly conservative spaces. I didn't stay long because my leadership, my gifts are leadership and teaching. So, you know, if I'm in a church, you're not going to find any place. Yeah. No, that if their attitude is women eat candy, then the ushers. I mean, why would I stay there? Right. Right. I've been relatively fortunate to be in healthy spiritual communities. Now, my personal understanding of scripture has evolved over time that puts me in a pretty liberal to progressive stance at this point. Right. But I really benefited from a season of being, for instance, the Presbyterian Church that I was in when I came to faith, had a very robust adult Bible study. And, yeah, so I didn't know anything. I didn't know any of those stories. Yeah. Well, of course, you know, blah, blah, blah. I think, well, no, I don't, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. When you're raised in the spaces, you assume everybody knows. And, you know, I have a friend here. People being shocked that, yes. Wait, what? You weren't, what? You were raised in the church. I thought everybody knows the story of Jonah. Are you kidding me? You know, if, yeah, we, I assume people know it all. And I have a friend here who was raised without, like her mom was kind of a hippie and was like, I'm just going to let you do your thing and find what you feel most comfortable with. And so that's how she was raised. And when I tell her some of the things about my past or things that I've learned or stories from the body, she just is in complete shock. She's like, what? And I look at her like, what? You didn't have done this? And she's like, yeah, I don't even understand. Like, you know, I told her what we believed about hell. And she was like, I cannot believe people have that kind of imagining imagination about what's going to happen when they die. Like, that's horrifying. And it's funny, because I don't think I realize how horrifying it was until I stepped away. And absolutely. We, you don't have the perspective of, especially if you're raised in it, it's, it's the waters you've always been swimming in. Everybody and authority around you from parents to pastors is telling you the same story. That's the only story you're hearing. And, and so you, you don't get the perspective until you step out of it. I'm, I'm very grateful. As I said, I've really never been in churches that teach them more harmful. Yeah, the scary stuff. Things. Yeah. And honestly, having come to faith as an adult, if I, if I was exposed to that, I would have dismissed it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it is funny, once you see it, you can't unsee it, you know, like, but I, it took me a while to see it. And then I was like, Oh my goodness, I can live my life and not believe that. Like the amount of weight that I lost off my shoulders. And it's like, I didn't even realize I was carrying it, you know, and to me, it's just, I don't know. Yeah. And how about patriarchy for another example of a way on your shoulders? Oh, yeah. It's all just kind of falling off little by little and as it falls off, I'm like, wow, Leslie. And I didn't even realize how much fear I was living in and how much just dread and anxiety. It just was all on me. And I didn't even know, didn't even know I would have called it freedom. I would have called it freedom because because I was, I had a get out of hell free card. I asked you a sin in my heart. So I was fine. But the problem is when you're an empathetic person, the way that I am, it's you're not ever fine, because all you think about is other people and they're going to go to hell. And it's just a horrifying way to live to imagine that. So yeah, yeah, letting go of that was a big deal. I'm glad you never had to make it up. Good for you. Okay. So tell me, all right, tell me about your life now. I know that you are a marriage and family therapist and a writer, which I cannot wait to hear more about all the good things that you offer. But tell me a little bit about your home life and your husband. And what do you do for fun? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So my husband, I've been married 42 years. And we have, I know, amazing. We have two adult children who are married and parenting. And they both have two. Our daughter has two girls. Our son has two boys. Very symmetrical. Rounding it out. Nice. My grandchildren, I tell you every cliche you've ever heard about being a grandparent is true. It's the best thing ever. I'm obsessed with that. Oh, I bet you are. But not so obsessed that I stayed where they are, which is in San Diego. We're in San Diego for 38 years. That's where my husband's career was. And when he was, we just decided we wanted to spend time elsewhere on the West Coast and discovered Bend. We live in Bend, Oregon, which is central Oregon. It's a mountain town. And I, you near Mount Bachelor then, right? That's 20 miles away. Yes. Now, when do you like skiing? Yes. Yes. Here I am sitting in my office. I know. Right. Uh, where, you know, but, um, yeah, we just, I wanted to be here sooner, but he wasn't ready to come until he retired. So he retired five years ago. He's seven years older than I am. So he's a little ahead of me. Plus, I'm pretty sure I won't retire anytime soon, but too much joy. Even though our kids and grandkids are in San Diego, we love, we love being here. Oh, I'm glad. We start our days with a hike on the trails almost every day. We have two dogs, a San Bernard and an Australian shepherd. Oh my god. So we're out on the trails. You're like a Norman Rockwell painting in real life. The American dream with the same Bernard and an Australian shepherd, two of the best dogs, I think, some of the best breeds, but that's so fun. Well, good for you. I'm excited. So we're kind of neighbors then. We're not too far away from each other. Yeah. I have friends in Bend, and I think it's absolutely beautiful. So pretty. Yeah. If there's another state I would live in, it would probably be Oregon, I would think. Yeah, because I'm definitely not going back east. We moved from... Yeah, we've been in South Carolina all these years and it's home. Yeah, I love it. All the mountains, and there's so much to do. Yeah. Well, I am going to take... We're going to take a little bit of a break, and when we come back, I want to delve a little more into what you do, and also kind of... I want to pick your brain a little bit about maybe somebody who might be carrying a little bit of religious trauma, because unfortunately, I think we have some people listening who may have had some, and I know I'm one of them. So we can maybe talk about that a little bit, so we'll talk about that to the break. Welcome back to "Wannering the Journey." I'm Leslie Nees here with Molly LeCroy, and we are having a conversation what we were talking about, of course, her amazing life, her Norman Rockwell painting life over in Oregon with her St. Bernard and her Australian shepherd. But it's been really fun getting to know you, Molly, and I can't wait to dive a little more into... Molly, I don't even know where to start. You're a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I know you have... You've spent time working with people who have had some religious trauma, and I would love for you. I don't even know what I would ask for you to touch on in this, but I know that we have a lot of people who listen to this podcast who are listening because they need to know they're not the only one, and they want to connect with a story, a sacred story, and they want to feel understood, and I feel like it's kind of hard to do that, and deconstruction, which is what we call it. Not sure I love the term, but it is what we call it, which are going through a faith transition of sorts. It can be really lonely, and it can be really, really difficult, so I don't know. What would you say to somebody who's listening, who's going through, you know, maybe licking some wounds from religious trauma? Yeah. Gosh, I have so much to say, but the first thing, I want people to know that at their very core, they are beloved, that the messages that they heard that contradicted that, that instilled fear, that instilled perfectionism and screw velocity, because there was this notion that you're never good enough to please God. That's all simply untrue, and we, God is love, and we are created in the image of God, and at our core, we possess, we reflect God's image, we have God-given resources, and those can't be damaged by whatever happens to us in life. So that's the other thing is to understand that, yes, these adverse experiences that people have, that are on a spectrum from things that are hurtful, like spiritual bypassing and inappropriate advice-giving, and being told they need to pray more, and they just don't believe the right things, all the way over to trauma. Wherever on that continuum, that affects us when we have those experiences, and we carry burdens from them, and then our system is, again, has a God-given ability to adapt. We adapt to whatever experiences we encounter as humans. That is a gift. If we couldn't adapt, we wouldn't survive. But those adaptations can constrain our best functioning. So again, being in a high control religious environment, one adaptation is perfectionism. So this striving to be good and this fear-based protective strategy hijacks your life, and constrains your ability to do what God tells us is most important in the great commandment, which I call the great vision. Great vision of our lives is to love ourselves and others and God, in this beautiful, reciprocal flow of loving energy. And that all gets constrained by the ways we have to adapt to adversity. And that happens whether one is in a spiritual community or not, all humans experience a diversity, we all adapt. But I actually am in a doctoral program, a doctor of ministry program, and my research, my project, is about spiritual abuse. And so I've been knee-deep in the research this semester. And it is clear that while trauma is trauma, and the good news is that we know a lot more than we used to about treating trauma. And so someone that suffered religious trauma, they can be treated. And it's clear that spiritual learning is different. There is something profoundly damaging when someone is taught by their spiritual community, that community where they're supposed to be safest, and most loved, and hell, when the message is, you're not good enough, and you're never going to be good enough. And if you are good enough, you're going to hell for eternity. And hell is not some benign place. And all those kinds of twisted messages that people have heard, there is something about that that provokes some pretty profound distress. And I think it can affect, I mean, not even just your mental health, but just in your physical health, and your relationships, and how you perceive people. I mean, one of the things that I've really had to work on since deconstructing, and really kind of coming out of some of those thoughts, just really learning to trust my intuition and my voice, and learning that I am actually not this horrific person created by God to be hated, or not really hated, but avoided because I was a sinner. But now that I've asked Jesus, I'm okay. And now he covers me. And so God looks at me, he sees Jesus, and that's supposed to make me feel peace. Like it, it always kind of just confirmed the narrative that I had, you know, as a child, like, I'm not enough. I need, you know, I was my dad left when I was six months old, and you know, my mom was married a few times. And so it was hard to find that connection. And then to find that I do have this father in heaven, who is God, you know, yet another father, I'm like, I'm not sure I trust him anyway. And then to find, Oh, well, that makes sense. He doesn't want me either. Right. Then it's just weird. Like, you, it was very difficult. Very confusing. But the mess, when you sort of, it's like a piece that you have when you're in it, when you have asked Jesus, you're like, Oh, I'm good. But like, when you step out of it for a second, and you think about it, you're like, my though, like, I just never had, it was like a surface piece. But the internal piece was was missing. And that's right, top. It is, it is. Yeah, very difficult. Yeah. And so when you, when you talk to people who've got religious trauma, and especially in this project that you're doing, which I'm so like, wow, that's amazing. I can't wait to hear more about that. I don't know if that's going to be public, but I can't wait to hear more. But just like dealing with the people with religious trauma, do you find that? I don't know, are there, is it similar? I mean, do people come to you in different ways as far as like, I don't know, somebody maybe insecurities or like, what is the main way that people come to you? And they're not even really sure what it's from. And you're like, oh, okay, as we peel the onion back, I'm realizing this is stemming from, because I think sometimes we're experiencing things and we're not sure what's happening. Right, right. Yeah. I just really been around a lot for that question. Well, I want to be clear for your audience that professionally, as far as my work with clients, I have not specialized in treating spiritual abuse. What's interesting is how recent all of this is in terms of even the terminology, high control religion is a relatively new term. Laura Anderson's book, When Religion Hurts You, I want to credit for her research. And she speaks of adverse religious experiences. And as I did my research and you Google those terms, those are new terms. So what I originally saw, I went to a seminary to get my master's in marriage and family therapy. So I've always had a lot of clients in my practice who identify as Christian. And early, early on, what I saw were things that I didn't even have names for. But a client who was her story is in my first book, which she graciously gave me permission to share, she was born a twin. And as so often happens with twins, one of them struggles, because just in the process of the birth, sometimes that's not that unusual. My younger brother and sister was the case. Her brother was fine. She was in the NICU. And the story that she was told while she was growing up was that her parents prayed over her, that if she were going to be a good Christian, that God would let her live. That was the narrative she was told as a child. So you can just imagine. So this is a client I had in my case, load years and years ago. And when I was first getting a sense for the kind of harm that was being done in some kinds of Christian communities. And again, before I ever heard the term deconstruction, I was wrestling with this. I was in a group practice with other Christian therapists, and I said, you guys hear a stories like this? They're all shaking their heads, yes. And I wrote my first book because I wanted to bring a resource to the church to help people understand what happens in us when we're confronted by vulnerability. So the model that I use in my work, you mentioned earlier, it's called internal family systems. And it's a very helpful way to understand human functioning. And that is this idea of multiplicity. When we turn our attention inside and start paying attention to what's going on inside of ourselves, we often notice that there are multiple voices, there are different emotions, there are different perspectives about things. It can be quite chaotic and confusing inside some days. In there, somebody says, do you hear voices? And I just want to go, no, because I know if I say, yes, you're going to think I'm crazy. But don't we all? I don't know. Well, and that's the thing, this concept of multiplicity has been pathologized. If it isn't pathology, it's actually human functioning. And for me, as I was learning this, some years after specializing in treating trauma, for one thing, it really described what my clients were telling me. And for another, I found it quite congruent with Christian spirituality, because after all, we worship a God who is multiple. And we're created in God's image. So why would we think we wouldn't be multiple? And yes, a different way than God, but still. And there are a number of things, one of the things about this model that's profound, because it's a secular model, is that in the course of developing the model, Dr. Richard Schwartz, who developed IFS, discovered that no matter what had happened in someone's life, no matter how adverse their experiences, how profound their trauma, they had an undamaged core that they possessed healing resources. And that to me was so congruent with me being created in God's image. After all, what could it mean to be created in God's image if we didn't have God-given resources? That we could bring to bear on our life and others' lives. And he helpfully named those as eight sea qualities like compassion and curiosity and clarity, courage, creativity, connection, calm. I'm going to forget one of the seas, but anyway, there are eight of them. And you get the idea. Yes, you get the idea. And so that we have both this undamaged core, for lack of a better term in the model, we call it self. Some people like to call it true self or the soul or whatever language works. But we also have different members of this internal family. Now, in an ideal scenario, they just bring wonderful qualities and traits that make each of us who we are uniquely meant to be. But life also happens. And so some parts of us get burdened by wounds. And other parts of us have to protect the system from those wounds because the wounds are our vulnerability, which is perceived as risky. And vulnerability is risky sometimes, but it's also yes, how we connect. It's always risky. And it's how we connect. So it's this profound paradox at the center of who we are as humans. And as as organisms, we are, we do adapt and we adapt primarily to survive. And our brain is constantly assessing, is this good or is this is this not good? Is this safe or is this a threat? And so when something is perceived as a threat, it is adaptive for us to have parts of us who will take on jobs. It's like putting on a uniform, they take on a job of something like being your internal critic. Because let's say you were shamed in some situation. And it happened enough that you're now carrying this burden of shame, the sense of I'm not good enough. And so a part of the system says, hmm, that's risky. I don't want to be shamed again. I don't want that pain to surface. So I'm going to criticize you before somebody else can. I'm going to make sure that you stand in front of that mirror and you critique yourself an extra 10 minutes before you leave the house. Because then somebody outside the house isn't going to find fault with you. Or if they do, it'll just match the narrative that you already have. Well, sure. Then the challenge, if you're criticized anyway, then up comes this well of pain and shame. So these protective parts of the system take on these jobs. And so pretty soon, what we've got going on inside is we have this undamaged core that we like to talk about as the leader of the internal family. Because that's ideally what's happening, like a director directing an orchestra. The director is directing and all the musicians are playing and this is harmonious blend of beautiful music. But instead, what happens as life unfolds is some of those musicians are wounded. And so they're feeling broken and they're holding pain. And others are playing too loudly and at odds with each other because they're trying to mask the pain. And pretty soon you have chaos and cacophony. Instead of this beautifully flowing dynamic that again, we're meant to exhibit all of these wonderful qualities. See, I love the way you're explaining this. I love because I'm just now starting to understand the false self versus the true self and trying to step into that and trying to understand who I really am. Because I think for so long, being in religion, I was conditioned to be what I was supposed to be. But like, some of that wasn't necessarily who I really was. But I fell into that, so the hardest thing for me in deconstruction, I think, has been stepping into my true self, letting go of the false self, which is the thing that was trying to be everything for everyone. And really, I think there were people that didn't really like me for who I really am. They liked my false self, and they're just kind of mad at me for not continuing in that. And I even see understanding that Jesus was here to show us this is what it looks like to walk in who you really are, your true self that is connected to God that has the leader you know, this is what it's like. And this if you live like this, you're going to be free. And the truth is you, I mean, yeah, there is freedom in that, but you know, getting to that place when you walked in a false self for so long is incredibly difficult. There's a mourning process, there's an anger phase, there's all the things, you know, that's a tough thing. But like, now understanding it even from a psychological perspective makes total sense to me. Yeah, so there are some, there are some nuances of the way IFS views all of this. Yeah, that might be helpful. So one of the things that I do try to avoid is the language of false self. I understand the point of it, because it's that inauthenticity, it's that pretending to be what people want you to be. Yeah, right. In this model, what we do is let's say one of the very common inauthentic, so-called false selves for women in the churches to over function, to do everything for everybody and to not have a self. To not have a self because you're not allowed to, you're supposed to be this over functioner. I'm never going to do anything for myself, et cetera, not healthy. So it makes sense if you're in a culture that values that, that a part of the system says, well, this is what's valued. This is what's going to keep me safe. This is what's going to keep me on the inside because that feels most safe to us as humans. So you have a prominent part of your system whose job it is to over function. So in this model, rather than ejecting that part from the system. Goodbye, yes. The process of healing is to connect with her and to hear her sacred story, because she has a story to tell about why she's doing what she's doing, how imperative it was to take on that job, to keep you. To protect you. To protect you. To keep in some cases, the roles they play are survival. And when she tells her story, part of her story is about when she took on this job. And that is sort of the doorway to the one who's holding the wounds. That part of you who's still stuck in a particular time and place where adversity occurred. And that part also has a story that we want to hear. And it's the process as those stories unfold in the presence of a loving witness, this leader of the internal family. Again, accompanied by the Holy Spirit, creating a sacred space for these stories to unfold. That's how healing happens. And so we ultimately, I talk about linking arms. So this part of you that may be over functioned has a lot of great qualities that when she knows it's safe not to over function, she can still bring wonderful qualities like compassion and concern for others to your system, which are qualities you want to possess. So it's a nuance, semantically. But the healing happens when we bring love to those parts of us. And sometimes that fall off language can set up more of a hostile side of them. Yeah. You're right. And I don't think that I was hostile towards my fall off. I've literally just gotten to the point. And I shared this before. So I apologize if you're listening and you're hearing this again, but I'm going to tell Molly. Yeah, I used to be known in my circles as sister Christian. And, you know, that was my nickname because I was such a good Christian woman who loved Jesus and I wanted everyone to know about him. So they wouldn't go to hell. I was very evangelical. I was out there. And so I feel like she's gone. Like she's it's not that I'm not a Christian. I'm just not a highly functioning doer anymore. Like I'm I'm a lot less determined to show what a great Christian I am and more determined to just be one, you know, and well, exactly. And isn't that what a great distinction. Yeah, because because those protective parts of us are the there are different types of them. But one one type we call managers because they're managing people's perceptions. They're trying to control how we show up so that we can earn other people's favor. And when they relax and retire, then they in their heart of hearts, they care about other people. That's what motivated you to do what you were told was the right way to hear. And now, instead, you're loving people in a way that you've found to be healthier and actually more life-giving. So still there of compassion and care. It's just take off that uniform that never felt very good anyway. It was scratchy polyester. It was heavy. It was heavy. Well, and I do say, even in my book, I wrote a thing. I said, you know, sister Christian, I feel like she is she's gone. Like she's dead and gone. But whereas I used to stomp on her grave, and I used to be so mad at her. Now I bring her flowers. And I spend time thanking her for teaching me what it was like to fully give my heart to something 1000%. For teaching me how to love deeply, you know, without abandon, you know, how to, you know, showed me, okay, this is what life is going to look like if you don't have any boundaries whatsoever. Is that what you want? I'm sorry, sister Christian. I had to go through that. I'm so sorry. I love you. This is not who I am anymore, but but I love you for what you taught me. And I don't regret that phase of my life. I don't. I appreciate it. Like it's such a bringing place to you. It's part of who you are. It's, you know, it's a chapter in your sacred story that you've come to honor, which is beautiful. And you just the space that you described when you wanted to stomp on her grave is really common because what happens inside of us is we have polarities. We'll have a part of the system that does a particular job and another part of the system that really hates the job they're doing. So for instance, for some people who have experienced religious trauma or any other kind of trauma, there's a lot of pain. And so we have strategies to numb the pain. Some of those strategies get us into trouble. They hijack our relationships. We can't show up and do the work we need to do because maybe we drank a whole bottle of wine last night, said one glass or right. Other people are engaged in extreme exercise that's actually harming their body. All these strategies to numb our pain, some are socially sanctioned, like over exercise, some not so much. But whenever there's a part of the system that's doing something heroic in service of the system, but it's causing some damage, there is another part of the system that doesn't like them or is afraid. So sometimes parts of the system carry rage, which anger is an adaptive instinctive response to injustice. It's a God-given response to that. Thank you. Thank you. Because I think sometimes we put anger in this like, it's such a bad thing category. And it feels kind of naughty, honestly. I mean, I'm just not an angry person, but going through my anger phase of grief when, you know, sister Christian was fizzling out of my, you know, that was, I turned into somebody I didn't even like, like it was like, what in the world? Where did that come from? Like, I never get road rage. And here I was, like, constantly at every one, you know, and I think I felt safe in my car, because that was, you know, nobody could hear me. I wasn't looking people in the eye. One of the harmful things in these, in these over controlling communities is people are told that certain emotions are unacceptable. Yeah. And it could be any emotion, sometimes playfulness. It's unacceptable because it's kind of messy. And so in these high control spaces, emotions are usually not fully welcome. And especially for women, anger has not been welcome. And you get called names if you exhibit anger as a woman. Oh, yeah. But these are, again, there's neuroscience here. We have seven primary affective circuits in our brain, one of which is anger. And so it is a God-given resource. Our emotions all give us information. They give us energy to take action. And the idea is that we bring this leader of the internal family, the self that bears God's image, to work together with the part of us holding some emotion, to say, "Tell me more. Tell me what this is about. Help me understand. Tell me your story." Then we can say, you know, this part in the sense, well, I'm angry because of this message I'm being given that I am not worthy to teach and lead because I'm a female. That makes me angry. Well, it should make you angry. That's in practice. And so we take this and say, "Well, thank you. Yes. Now, what am I going to do about it?" And so we partner with and when we lead from self, then we can be calm, but also courageous. We can be compassionate, but also confident and lean into justice issues. I love this. This is so good. Now, when do you love your job? No wonder you're never going to retire. This is amazing. Good stuff. Well, I'm really a huge fan of this model. It's been transformative. Like you imagine. I've been kind of doing that without even realizing it, Molly. That's so funny. As you're talking, I'm like, "It's interesting. Yeah. Your body, I think you naturally go through it. I just didn't know what to call it." Right. Yeah. It's kind of like when you go through deconstruction before you know the word deconstruction, you just start hearing things and you think, "That doesn't seem like Jesus. That doesn't seem." Let me pull that to the side and see, "Is that really what I believe? Is that really what should be?" You know, and finding that and just being able to find my voice again. So crucial. And as you said, connecting with your intuition, which again, one of the things that's been a false narrative in certain Christian spaces is this dualism that's platonic, not biblical, about body and soul being separated, that we are embodied. We are embodied creatures. The body is just the intuition that you feel in your body is just as vital information as anything else. Those goosebumps mean something then. Yeah. That's right. That's right. I mean, usually it's funny when I feel those, I'm like, "Oh, there's something really powerful going on right now that maybe I can't even see or even understand." But I pay attention to that stuff now, whereas before I thought it was hokey, I really thought it was hokey, new age stuff or whatever. Well, that's the thing. And again, I like to emphasize, because I don't want people to, it's very easy to get into judgment. Here we are. Yes. That's all I ever used to do. That's not a posture we want to be in. When we understand that these high control religious spaces and the damage that's being done, they're rooted in fear of vulnerability, that we want power and control as humans because it feels safer than love, because love is vulnerable. But if you look at Jesus' life, I wrote one chapter in my first book about how Jesus' whole life, from conception to the cross, redeems vulnerability. Everything about his life was vulnerable. And there is a profound message in that. That this is what it means to be human in its highest expression. But we have an innate fear of that, and so we have to work with that. We have to meet that with grace and with love. Yeah, I love that. It's beautiful. And it's true. He was very vulnerable. And it wasn't well received in the institutions and systems that were established in the world at the time. So, and they're still kind of around, you know, reality and religion. Yeah, the question of power is still with us. Interesting. That thread, it kind of went all the way back there. Yeah, it is interesting. I'm sorry, Henry is, I think somebody's delivering something outside. That's always gets them going more than anything. I know, I'm like, I should put a sign out on my door. We're recording. Please don't know. But anyway, this has just been literally, I love it. I could talk about this stuff all day, but I know I want to respect your time. So, I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you go. But I do want to give you an opportunity to let people know how they can contact you and where they can find your book, all that good stuff. Yeah, yeah. So the easiest thing is to go to my website, which is mollylachroy.com. And you can learn about my books and connect with me. And I'm on social media, mollylachroy.lmft on Instagram and Facebook. So, and I, I'm getting, I send a monthly email to people, just kind of helping them think about these things, practice these things. And I'm getting ready to shift from an email format over to sub stack. So I'm gonna do that next month, but I'll, I'll have links to that stuff. Yeah. Nice. It's nice. I think it's a good place to be, just to keep offering people this new way of understanding themselves. And then eventually my doctoral project will, I think probably what I'll be doing is a group curriculum for people who are recovering from spiritual abuse, because there's been such a loss of community and so much isolation and loneliness. Yeah. And a group process really helps meet those needs. Yeah. It's a place to be able to, I'm actually working right now on a thing called religious rehab. It's just like a, it's just a group of people meeting and, and I can facilitate just some topics that we can just talk. I mean, it's not, it's not going to be therapy like you, but it will be just a place to, you know, just connect with people who are going through what you're going through, because the isolation and the loneliness can be a little overwhelming. Yeah. But maybe I'll, maybe I'll have you come in and say hi to them at some point. I'd love to. That'd be great. Yeah. So, well, thank you. I appreciate your time. And I just want to say, I think there's so much more that we could even like talk about. This is just beautiful. I think the thing that really gets me excited about what you do and, and teaching people to get to know themselves is that I think in, especially, specifically in religious, high control systems, when people are brought up, they are taught not to focus on themselves, that they should be last, you know, Jesus first others and then yourself. And so, and then then you'll have joy, you know, and it's like, you know, you know, how could that, how could that be when, when Jesus affirmed the great commandment, right, which people often drop off the loving yourself part of the great commandment, by the way. But again, I like to call it the great vision, because it really challenges that narrative that somehow you're not worthy of love. Yeah. Well, and you know what I was told Molly, and you're going to cringe when you hear this, but I was taught that when he said, love your neighbors, I to yourself, it's already assumed that you love yourself a lot. And that's why he doesn't say you need to love yourself. Because you're so selfish. It's just assumed because you're so selfish and self centered. So, this feels very weird when you first come out of religion to do therapy and, and to do this kind of work. But I'm telling you, it's okay to focus on you. You are lovely and you are precious to not only God, but to the people who love you and need you in their life. And, you know, you getting to know myself has been one of the greatest gifts that deconstruction has given me. So, this sounds like an amazing way to do that. So, anyway, Henry says hello. That's Henry. Hello, Henry. You are an amazing gift to the world, Molly. Thank you for being here and for your time for generously sharing your wisdom with us. And I look forward to seeing everything you're going to do because I know you're not going to retire. So, no, apparently not. Yeah. Well, thank you, Leslie. Thank you. I honor your journey, Molly. Have a great day. Thank you. You too. [BLANK_AUDIO]
