This choir cast podcast is brought to you by The Choirlings, a private Facebook page for people going through deconstruction where each month we go through a book together, not only discussing it with each other, but also with the actual author of the book. It's a great way to connect with other people going through deconstruction and also connect with the author of books that are going to encourage you along your journey. If you'd like to join us, find us on Facebook. It's choirlings, QU, O-I-R-L-I-N-G-S. Hope to see you there. Today, we're honoring the journey of the lovely April Adjoi, a former worship leader and Christian nationalist whose life has taken a huge turn after deconstruction. And now she's a content creator, podcast host and author of a brand new book coming out in October called Star Spangled Jesus, leaving Christian nationalism and finding a true faith in its due out in October. But you can pre-order it now. We'll share more about that later. Before I bring her in, though, just a couple of quick updates, religious rehab is coming up this fall, and if you'd like to join this group coaching experience with me and several other people, there is still time to get on the waitlist. I'll be sending out an email on August 15th with details of when it starts and how long it is, so try to sign up before then. All you have to do is shoot me an email at LeslieMies@gmail.com. Say you want to be on the waitlist for the next religious rehab. And don't forget Theology Beer Camp is coming up in October. If you want to attend and save $50, you use the code "Journey2024" when you register. Theology Beer Camp is a unique three-day conference happening near Denver, Colorado, and it brings together theology nerds and craft beer for a blend of intellectual engagement, community building and fun. I'm going to be there. My guest from a few weeks back, Kelly Strickland will be there with me, and you'll get to meet folks like Trik Fuller, who is actually going to be our guest next week here on the podcast, Tom Ord, who was a former guest here, and dozens of other folks that you may or may not follow online who are helpful. It's a great opportunity to make human connection face-to-face, while learning, growing, and just having a ton of fun, so all of that information will be in the show notes. Alright friends, here's my interview with April Adjoy on honoring the journey. Welcome to honoring the journey. I'm Leslie Nees, your host, and today I am joined by someone I actually am super excited to hear about her journey. Her name is April Adjoy. Is it Adjoy or Adjoy? You could say it either way. It's actually my middle name, and I say Adjoy. Adjoy, okay. April Adjoy. I like that because you're Adjoy, and you really are, so it fits very well. That was why my parents named me that, by the way. They had like this premonition. She was going to be Adjoy. Anyway, April is an author, she's a content creator, a podcaster, and here's the cool thing. She has a book coming out in October called The Star Spangled Jesus, and Leaving Christian Nationalism and Finding True Faith, which I don't know, April. I think there's going to be a lot of people that can resonate with. We see waves of people leaving evangelicalism whenever there's a political season. So I have a feeling we're going to have another wave at the end of the year, but anyway, I'm so excited to have you here, April, and hear about your journey. Welcome to honoring the journey. Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm super excited to be here as well. One thing you've been doing recently, too, is you've been hanging out with him over at the New Evangelicals doing, like, is it like a weekend sort of update? Yeah, it's very Saturday Night Live-esque, everyone. Yeah, it's called the recap, and we basically just recap whatever happened in the previous week. So they drop on Fridays, and it's just from the previous episode to that. Yeah, we try to keep it light, hearted, because a lot of the news is really not really heavy. You know, and obviously there's some things that you can't laugh about, but yeah, yeah, you know, we try to find humor and the chaos. Yeah, I like the feminine voice, too. I think it's good. You guys have good chemistry together. It's fun. Oh, I'm glad you're doing that. It'll be fun. And so what I like to do when I start my podcast off is I like to ask just a random question about your life and get to know you as a person, not as the podcaster, the content producer, TikTok, or whatever. You're, you know, doing, but like as April the person. So I was like, I have three that I was trying to decide through, but I think, I think I'm going to ask you this one. What challenge in your life shaped you the most and why? I know there are probably a lot of them. Yeah, there's probably a lot. I mean, the, the one that I can think of where I feel like I have the before this happened, and then after this happened, it was a clear. Change and I don't challenge may not be the right term for it, but when my dad passed away, because we were, I was 23 and it was in 2011. And so I was raised very Pentecostal and so we believed in faith healing and that, you know, as long as you have enough faith, God will answer your prayer. And so my dad was diagnosed with stage four non smokers lung cancer in May of 2011 was given six months to live, but we were like, no, no, that's where we don't accept that God's going to heal him. And yeah, so, but he passed away four months later. So we didn't even make the six month mark. And so that honestly, I would say that was probably when my deconstruction or, you know, just kind of reimagining faith and my beliefs and ideology. It really started because I could not have had more faith that he was going to be healed and he wasn't. So then I was suddenly faced with like, okay, we'll just God not answer prayer. If you have enough faith, like, do I have any control in this, you know, all the questions or just like, God, why would you do this? Maybe God doesn't answer prayer. So that kind of kick started. I probably deconstructed like more charismatic Pentecostal beliefs first. Yeah, yeah, that was, I'm so sorry about your, yeah, thank you. Sorry, I mean to start on such a downer. No, it's, but you know what, it's, it's, it's a life changing moment when you lose somebody that you care about. And especially when you've, I mean, if anybody is listening and have been in evangelicalism, you've probably been faced with that whole, like, why didn't they get healed so many times? And, and it is very, very difficult. And, and you know, the answer is always the same, you know, when you start asking questions, they're like, well, God's ways are not our ways. So, you know, just deal with it. It's okay. He knows what's best. Yeah. And it's like, wait, how is this best? This is it. And there's also like kind of a toxic positivity to where I'm like, my sadness wasn't like there was some empathy, but for the most part, it was like, why should you be sad? He's in heaven. He got his ultimate healing. You'll get to see him one day. And it's like that's not what I was praying for. Yeah, exactly. So, so fervently. Yeah, when I was on Christian radio, I remember I had some, some health issues and wound up having to have a hysterectomy. And, you know, I'm talking about, I'm very open, always have been. And so I would talk about my, you know, I'm going to be getting this hysterectomy and people would call it. I don't know why they felt like they had authority over my life, I guess, because they listened to me on the radio. I don't know. Yeah. And they would say, you know, you, you really just need to pray for healing. Like, why are you getting hysterectomy? And like yelled at my husband for not, you know, leading me in the right direction. Like she needs healing, not surgery. And it's like, do you not understand that like surgery can be healing, right? And I'm like, why do they care if you still have your ovaries? It was insane. It was so insane. And so I just remember that was probably, I mean, there were so many things, but yeah. Yeah, that whole faith, just name it and claim it. And, you know, just then you're like, what is my faith broken? Am I broken? Why didn't that work? It should be working, you know, and in hindsight, I realized that people were saying a lot of those things to me because it was a defense mechanism because if they couldn't just accept that God just didn't answer my prayer, because then they would also have to ask the same questions that I was asking. And it's, you know, it's a defense mechanism to keep your beliefs intact. Wow, that's so true. That's a good, very good observation. So you were in evangelicalism apparently for a long time. And I think you led worship didn't you or something or well, not led because you're a woman, you, you were under a leader. Yeah. Well, yeah, I was not the worship pastor, but I was a worship leader at several different churches from youth group all the way to an adult when Beecher and I, my spouse got married. So how, how was that transition? I know you say you started asking questions in 2011 after losing your father, which makes complete in total sense. Uh, when did it start to really pick up? Yeah. So I think there are, there are a couple of things that happened along the way. Um, like in 2015, my, one of my brothers came out to me as gay. And, you know, we obviously believed it was a sin and just make a choice, bud. Right. Yeah. Like it was a choice. It was either, you know, demonic possession or demonic oppression or demonic influence. Like there was a demon involved somehow. Of course. Yes, of course. Um, so I instantly started questioning theology around that because my brother grew up in the same kind of homophobic household that I did. And I know that there was no way they would choose that. Um, you know, and they had told me they'd cried, they knew since middle school. He had cried himself to sleep every night, like begging God to make him straight. And so I honestly, it was kind of an instant, like, okay, some, I don't know exactly what I believe, but I know what, what I'm being met with now is, is not adding up with my ideology. Um, and so, you know, but I still, what, I mean, I wasn't like affirming right away. I remember when he first told me, I mean, he's balling and I, you know, and I hug him and I, and I feel like for where I was, I responded well, but I did hear myself say, well, we know what the Bible says. Oh, yeah. I did that too, just so, you know, I mean, I think a lot of us did. And I do think it's very hard to come out of that until you love somebody. Who is going through it. And then all of a sudden you start to question because you're like, wait, this doesn't make sense. This person isn't making a choice. This is just who they are. And why do we have to exclude them from, from eternity? Because it like it makes no sense after a while. But honestly, I don't think I ever asked a question until there was somebody I loved who was a and then all of a sudden, I think it can start that ball rolling for a lot of people because when you realize how convoluted the translation is in the Bible for that word homosexual, which wasn't even a word until, but 1868. Um, you know, it's like, how did it get in a Bible written 2000 years ago? And then you start going, wait a minute. Okay. This is if it's wrong about this, what else am I being taught that may not be a hundred percent. And I think that starts a lot of people's journeys. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, totally. So in like, yeah, there, there was a, there was a bunch of other things too that kind of kick started like my spouse, Beecher. Um, they are out now non-binary, but we didn't know that when we got married. Oh, and so do you want going through like their gender, uh, journey to figure out who they were and, you know, and, and like we would go to marriage, like church marriage conferences and the, the speakers would be like, Oh, husbands do this and wives do this. And like even, I mean, I'm, I'm cisgender woman, but I didn't fit in the stereotypical wife boxes. Like I tried really hard to fit into those boxes, but it didn't, it never felt natural and it always felt like I wasn't being myself in that. And the same thing went for Beecher. And so we would go to these, these, um, these marriage events and, you know, trying to be the best Christian married couple that we could, but we just left feeling weirder and more isolated because we weren't, there was no one we could talk to you about what was going on. You wouldn't judge you or try to put you in a box. Yeah. Right. And we had no, like we were really ignorant too. Like we didn't know what gender dysphoria was. We didn't have any language for what was happening other than, well, if it's not, you know, heteronormative or, you know, it's, it doesn't, it's probably, um, demonic, you know, so, um, I mean, yeah, right. And I literally have with consent, like as a pen, as the Pentecostal in the marriage, like I laid hands on Beecher and tried to cast the, the demons out of them. So it was like, we can laugh about it now, but we've kind of been going through like the last few weeks, just kind of reconciling with like how not okay. How traumatic. Yeah. Right. It's really traumatic to believe at one point that, you know, for Beecher, that they had demons and that was out of their control and for me to, to believe that my spouse or, you know, or the person I loved had that and like be okay with it. But also like we got to get rid of these, these demons, which we never saw. Um, yeah, you know, but apparently they were there, but they weren't. So yeah. So that journey. And then, and then honestly, Donald Trump was a huge, was probably the catalyst that made a lot of things and hindsight start to make sense that I kind of had tucked away for a while, but then when I saw a lot of my Christian leaders that I had respected my entire life, like the Franklin Grahams of the world, um, who had taught me like under Bill Clinton, that character mattered that, you know, we couldn't have a president that had affairs because if he would cheat on his wife, what would he do to the country? And then suddenly with Donald Trump, it was like, Oh, well, we're not electing a pastor. We're electing a president. You know, like, Oh, now, now, like it's been about power this, this whole time. I just, um, so yeah, that, that was, that was really the, the big thing that made all of the other things kind of come to a head and start reconciling those things. I have to agree with you on that one. And in my journey as well, it was, there was a lot of things that, you know, started the ball, but I think 2016 and 2020. I, yeah, I was like, whoop, no, you know, it's again. It's that whole like, okay, if, if they're teaching me this and I know this is not right, what else am I believing? That isn't true. And is it possible because you just, you put so much faith and trust and what you're being taught and what you're being said that the, or what they're saying that the, the Bible actually means by certain things. And you do, you believe it and you teach it and you sing about it. And it's, you know, it's, it's reinforced and reinforced until one day it's like a glitch in the matrix. And then you're like, whoa, wait a minute, and then you have to choose, am I going to take the blue pill or like a red pill? And once you take it, there's no going back. I mean, that's, it sounds like it's such a, it's such a familiar journey to a lot of people, but it's so, it's so painful and so difficult. So you're, um, did you, were you leading worship when all of this was happening? Were you injured, you and Beecher? Yep, we were in church. Um, so in 2016 we, um, actually had moved, I was working for, um, uh, the CBN 700 club. Oh, at the time, uh, yeah, my, my evangelical street cred is top notch. Top notch, yes. Um, but yeah, so we, we had actually moved that year from Virginia Beach, which is where CBN is, uh, to Cleveland, Tennessee, which is Church of God headquarters. Cause Beecher took a job at Lee University, which is a church of God school. And we, and I was pregnant. So we were moving to be closer to family and Beecher's family lived in Georgia. So, so we moved there and, um, it wasn't, I pretty much got involved in a church pretty quickly. Like, you know, we were just at that point, we believed, you know, good Christians, good people go to church. So, and if we didn't go to church, we had that guilt of like, oh my gosh, you know, we're, we're, we're opening the door for Satan. Um, um, get a foothold. Right. We didn't want it. We didn't want any foothold. So we were, we're going to slam that door shut. So we started going to church. I got involved in the choir. Um, we didn't go to that church for very long though, because the week, the Sunday before the 2016 election, the pastor of that church got up. Um, and this was in Dalton, Georgia. So this is the same, we like drove 30 minutes to go to church. And Dalton, Georgia is the same district that Marjorie Taylor Greens from just for some context. Some context. Got you. Yeah. So the pastor got up and this is probably a thousand member church. It was not small. And he said, now here at this church, we're not going to tell you who to vote for in the election. Well, we will tell you that you just need a vote for the candidate that is the most biblical that will hold biblical values. That is, um, anti abortion, pro life, pro Israel. I think he said pro gun, um, pro biblical marriage, like basically, like listed all of the things that, okay, we know he might as well have said in rhymes with rump, because we knew he was talking about Trump. And I was like, I was fuming at the time. Oh, yeah. So, like, I think that the Christian nationalist aspect of my evangelical beliefs was like, I was realizing it in real time, how political my faith had been the whole time. Um, but it was making me mad like at the system, but also at myself for not seeing it sooner. Um, but yeah, I was like, I beach and I looked at each other. Like we're not coming back to this church. So then we found another church that was probably problematic in other ways, but not in that way, like not, yeah, not Christian nationalist and just a little more, like a, a chiller version of mainstream evangelicalism. Yeah. Mm, interesting. Wow. Okay. So when you guys finally pulled away from church, like, how was that? Was, did you have a lot of the guilt? Did you feel that initially or how were you just ready? Yeah. So I, I spent several months really, like probably 2019 leading into 2020 kind of feeling, you know, like I would be worshiping with these people in the auditorium on a Sunday morning and then I would see what they posted throughout the week on Facebook. And I was having a really hard time with the idea that we were worshiping the same Jesus because my Jesus, my understanding of who Christ is and was, was not pro-Trump or pro-gun or anti-immigrant and, or, you know, all of these things, it just felt very opposite of what we were supposed to be doing as Christ followers. Right. So I found myself like just being angry at church, which was not healthy, but I would be like, oh, we got a good church, but we would go to church because, you know, church guilt. Um, well, and also did you think if I leave, I'm, I'm contributing. This is how I, this is why I stayed as long as I did. If I leave, I'm contributing to the problem. I need to stay and fight and try to make things better. You know, yeah, totally. And, and, you know, it was, it was a conflict. It was a constant back and forth of I need to stay because I want to make this better. But also there was a little bit of, am I the crazy one? Cause everyone around me seems to be all in on Trump. Um, you know, and they would look at me like I'm being deceived by Satan. You know, I had people tell me, cause I didn't vote for Trump ever. I was a, I was a one of those never Trumpers. Um, but in 2016, I hadn't deconstructed enough to vote for a Democrat. Cause, you know, in my head, they were still, you know, baby killers. Yeah, deconstructed that later. That's a big deal. I'm why that was it, man. That was the thing too. And if you didn't, if you didn't, if you saw it any other way, you were a baby killer. Yes. And so you really didn't have a choice. You know, right? I mean, I was called a baby killer for just not voting for Trump. And I couldn't even, I was like, well, I can't vote for, you know, in my head of like, if I vote for a Democrat, all the aborted babies, bloods going to be on my hands. Cause that was things that, you know, those rhetoric that's what was that. Yeah. It's regularly said, so you just believe it. Everyone else around you. So there, there was like that, like, I kind of felt like I was constantly being gaslit, but I didn't really under, I didn't know what that term was. I was like, am I like, I remember praying, like God, if you want me to vote for Donald Trump, I will, but you're going to have to make that so obvious. Like you're going to have to make a sign that's like April, vote for Trump, love God. And thankfully, like no sign ever came. So I did not do it. But I was like that wanting to do the right thing so bad. And like, I don't understand how everyone around me is thinking this way. We're reading the same Bible. We're praying to the same God, but we're coming away with two completely different things. So that was that for a while. Um, and we didn't start, we didn't stop going to church until the pandemic made us. Really? So it was 2020 when we stopped going every week. And even then, we still live streamed the services for probably a couple of months. And then we kind of like, where's one Sunday? Beecher and I looked at each other and like our kids at that point were two, maybe two and no one, one and three. And it was just chaos. It was like, we're not, we're not getting anything from the sermon. I'm just like, no, no, no quiet. We're watching TV like trying to be good Christians. And at one point, we were just like, why are we doing this? Let's just stop. And so then we stopped and then we, when the, when they started the services in person again, we just didn't go back. Um, and I do think there was a lot of really hard, but needed, um, just space to think for myself without having that weekly dose of indoctrination. And it's not like it was overt, but you just hear these subtle things. Every week, after week, after week, after week, that kind of keeps you from being able to think for yourself. Um, and, and there wasn't that guilt and there wasn't that shame and there wasn't that pressure to have to think a certain way. Um, and so it was also during this time that Beecher started really questioning, like, or like actually looked themselves in the mirror and was like, I'm going to figure out who I am. What, what is my identity? Cause we were too scared to ask the question before. Um, and so it was kind of this perfect storm of we were stuck at home. And all we had to do was think about everything and, and we did. And it was existential crisis for sure. Um, but it ended up, you know, being good in the long run. But yeah, it was, it was a lot. It is so much when you go through it. And, and you, it is, I talk about this a lot on the show because I don't know if people really understand like scientifically neuroplasticity and the way that your brain is wired is exactly what you were just talking about. Like the subtle messages that keep feeding your neuro pathways. Like, Oh, this is true. This is real. This is good. This is my foundation. This is it. And the minute something like that, you know, the minute you start thinking other things that go against those neuro pathways, scientifically, your brain rewires itself and you realize, wow, that's why when you leave, they say, well, are you in the word? Are you in fellowship with other believers? Are you going to a Bible believing church? They, they want to make sure that those neuro pathways, they don't know. That's what it is. But like it is so scientific. And when I realized that it, it just made so much sense because I was like the more information that I was getting as I was learning to think critically, which nobody teaches you that, you know, in evangelicalism. Um, I was feeling more and more free of the fear that held me that. So, wow, I mean, like, I'm kind of blown away by how much you guys had to handle going through this, though. Like with Beacher trying to figure out who they are and then you trying to figure out, like, what do I believe? Like that's a lot. And then to have two little kids at the time. Wow, April, no wonder you have a sense of humor. No, well, humor is how I cope. And actually during the, during 2020 was when I downloaded TikTok. Two started making content because I was just like, am I the only one? I remember it was May of 2020 that I made my first, um, kind of like video that I would still make today. And it was to a trend at the time, uh, on TikTok where you like pick a, you pick a, the title of a song, um, and, and you basically like reenact whatever the album cover is for that, that title. And so like on the first slide, it's, it's words that match that title. So mine was when you're a Christian who doesn't like Trump, you get kicked out the club, which is a song. Um, it's a rap song. And so, but it went like it got, oh, it was super viral. It got almost a million news, which at the time was, was huge. And I would, I was surprised at how many people were like, Oh my gosh, I thought I was the only one. And it was the first moment where I realized, Oh, I'm not alone in this. Cause I felt alone for so long. Cause I had no one to talk to, um, you know, I would post on Facebook, but that's like my personal friends. And that was, you know, people I knew from my dad's old church, you know, and I had people tell me and rest of my family too, that like my late father would be disappointed in us cause we didn't vote for Trump. And so, but seeing like, Oh, this is, I'm not alone. Like there's, there's like so much healing and just knowing you're not alone. Like just that alone. And so that kind of started, I started making more TikToks. I, I, I started impersonating Trump supporters with my kids. Um, it was a, it's actually a ladybug Easter basket and I would flip it upside down and that would be my MAGA hat. Um, and so I still have it. I ordered a couple more in case one got lost. So like three little ladybug baskets now that are my official MAGA hats. Oh, I love it. That's so funny. Yeah. I, you, you posted one not too long ago. That was like, um, somebody saying, I'm a Christian. And I don't go to gay weddings because I don't support sin. And then another woman, you know, which was you in a, in a wig, you know, would say I'm a Christian and I won't vote for Trump because he's a bad guy or whatever. And the person can't say that. Yeah, I can't support sin. I laughed so hard. I thought that was so funny. And I was like, that is, and, and yet it's so sad. Like, you know what I mean? Like it's hilarious, but it's also very sad because there's so much truth in it, which makes it hilarious, which is weird. But, um, well, the hard part is they can't see it. Like the, the cognitive dissonance that you constantly have to hold. Yes. Is exhausting and you don't realize it until you're out of it, though, because you're just trying to hold all of these things that really don't go together. No, they don't. And when you, when you say something, like one of my very best friends in South Carolina, I moved to Utah, I guess, five and a half, almost six years ago. And when I moved here, I decided I'm really going to start taking this seriously, like really start deconstructing, even though I didn't know that's what it was called. And so I started posting things that were very anti-Trump, um, not pro anything else, but just like, hey, guys, we're really hypocritical. Hey, guys, um, do you see this? And like, nobody saw it. I had a friend write to me and say, I am absolutely stunned that you can't see that he is God's chosen. And I, I lost her. She was one of my best friends. She's like, I've stopped following you. I've stopped because you are clearly deceived. And I thought to myself, is this what's going to happen? If I, if I stand up for literally what I believe Jesus would stand up for, I don't understand. It was, it was the most bizarre thing. I was just talking to, um, actually, Tim and Sarah the other day. And I was telling them, do you remember the movie left behind? I'm sure you probably have. Oh, yeah. I read all the books, the kids. Well, you know, the end of, I think it's the first one where they're all in the boardroom and Carpathi is there and like, um, whatever his name is, Kirk Cameron goes into the bathroom and like asked Jesus into his heart. And all of a sudden he can see what Carpathi is doing. And everybody is just in trance and he's like, Oh, do they not see? I was like, that's who I feel like with this whole Trump thing. I'm like, how do you not see this? What is, how is this? Okay, you know, so anyway, sorry, I get a little pumped up. No, it's, it's so true though. And like, I see people too, like I don't think your average, um, like, I get a lot of comments from people that are like, there's no way anyone believes that Trump is God's chosen. Like you're making that up. I'm like, no, I have the DMS. I've got people like real life people. It's not a small, it's not a small number. And if even if, and here's my thing, the problem is I do think. The majority of Christians in America are probably not Christian nationalists. They, they, they are probably more apathetic politically because most people are, um, but the problem is, is these churches, the majority of evangelical churches, make room for Christian nationalism. They're not calling out, like you must vote Republican to be a Christian, or you can't be a Christian if you vote Democrat, they're like, those people feel comfortable going to these churches. And that's like the biggest problem is because I think Christian nationalism is like sneakily kind of rooted in a lot of American evangelicalism. It hides itself as evangelicalism. So you can't see one from the other because I don't know about you, but I was taught that like to be a good Christian. You love God. You love people. You vote Republican. Because yeah, because Republicans, they have God's best interest, um, that American was founded as a Christian nation, that we should be a Christian. Yeah. Yes. A biblical worldview, Judeo Christian worldview. And you don't realize how intertwined your faith and your political views are until you start deconstructing. And so that was like, when I was deconstructing, I was also deconstructing a lot of like my more patriotic views too, about like American exceptionalism because it was so connected with my Christianity. Mm. Yeah. And you, you really don't see it until you step away. Cause it's, and I do, I think that there is a such thing as like, it's so close and so a part of you that you can't see it. It's like not there until you step away and you look from a more, I don't know what the word would be, but like a broader perspective where you can kind of see, okay, wait a minute. And, and I think it's okay to ask those questions. And I think we're so afraid to do that initially because the answers are, it's like circular reasoning where you, I feel like what has happened is the Bible has just been elevated so much. Like the words of the Bible, whether it lines up with what Jesus taught or not, you know, has the last say. And, um, and yeah, it scares me a little bit, you know, that we're as a country, just so blinded by this. And it scares me for people, I don't know, like Beacher, you know, people who are, you know, struggling with like, I, I really feel like I'm a homosexual, but I can't say anything about it because my parents will disown me or, you know, people who, all these kinds of things are going to become laws. And then you've, I don't know, the, the autonomy, all of it. It just really bugs me. I'm glad about it. I can't wait till it comes out. I wouldn't really get things. Yeah, that's kind of the, the point of the book, too, is to tell my own personal story. Um, you know, I mean, and we were very Christian nationals. I wrote a song that I sang on the Jim Baker show called America, say Jesus. And it's very Christian nationals. I was 18 at the time, um, but I was so confident. I was like, yes, America is a Christian nation. We need to get back to Christianity, uh, and like take America back for God. And the way to do that is to say Jesus. All the time, um, uh, it's, it's so tragic. Yeah, but yeah. So like that's my, my hope in that, cause I, I do think there, there's a lot of people calling out Christian nationalism, rightly so, but it's, it's, it can be in a very like your evil type of way. And when you call someone evil or like that, that's just a non starter. Like they're not going to listen to you after that. Um, and so, and I actually do believe that majority of people, uh, and maybe not the ones at the very top, like there are definitely some bad actors in, in this world, like the ones that are leading the charge, but the majority of people who are just subscribing to the ideology, I think are actually good people. I think they mean well. I think they have very good intentions. I think that what they, they believe they're doing the right thing. They believe they're standing up for morality because we're also taught that there's that good can only come from God, from the Christian God. And so anyone who's not a Christian can't actually be good. It's like a faux good. It's like a, you know, a satanic deception kind of good. Oh my goodness. I remember being taught that. Yeah. Yeah. You believe that and genuinely believe it because you're indoctrinated into this belief, then, then it makes perfect sense that you would want Christians to lead the country that you would want your laws to be based on your idea of Christianity. Um, but the danger in it is that you do believe it so hard. So you are harming so many people, like just because you have good intentions does not negate the harm that you're causing everybody else who does not subscribe to that beliefs, like the marginalized communities. And, and honestly, like so much of, uh, Christian nationalism is also rooted in white supremacy and white nationalism, but you don't see that when you're in it because you're just, you're just kind of viewing the world through your white evangelical lens and you, you think God's on your side. So you're not going to be like, Oh, this isn't actually racist because it's Christian. Yeah. Um, so yeah, yeah, not only is God on your side, but you are his voice. You are the voice of God for this generation. You, and you need to be ready with an answer when, when asked about the hope that you carry. I mean, it's, you know, and it, and it does it, it really does negate so much. And I, I feel like, um, it's like what we were talking about, I think initially in our conversation where when you love somebody who is going through something or being fit, you know, facing something about themselves and they're like, what do I do? And, and it's anti what you've been taught in, in the, you know, it's the love that changes stuff. That's what changes it is, is when you love somebody. And I think, um, what I'm starting to learn and it's taken me so many years. I mean, I've been deconstructing for, I don't know, seven or eight years. And I feel like it's taken me so long to go, I really just love everyone. I don't really care what they believe. You know, I'm not, they're not a project for me to fix or whatever. And I think as you fall in love with other humans, you want to stand up for them, you want to help them have a better life. And you don't want to always just, I don't know, just remind them, oh, you're a sinner and I don't know, to me, it's just so much prayer to be able to just love people right where they are. Oh, yeah. Yeah, totally. And, and to take the ulterior motive out of it, of like, you know, you can't love this person because then you're enabling sin. And then if they die, go to hell, they're bloods on your hands. Like, let's just remember that too. Yeah, it's like get rid of that ideology actually frees you up to genuinely love people. And like the saddest part too is that I know at the time that I believed I was loving gay people when I told them love the center of the sin. Like in my head, in my heart of hearts, I was like, this is love. It's just tough love because I'm not going to, but, but when you believe that they would burn, you know, alive and be tortured for eternity in a warped view that is loving to try to save them from that. But it's such a harmful belief. Um, like you don't realize the harm that you're actually causing that person. So that, so that's, that was the goal in writing the book too, is that to show like, Hey, I don't think you're a bad person. I, I believe just like you, this is what I believed. I know that you believe this. I know that you think you, what you're doing is good. I get it. I thought the same thing and like kind of using personal, like my personal stories and journey, just be like, it's okay to change your mind. Yeah. Yeah. And that's important. I think that there, there are a lot of voices in the deconstruction community that are so important for people going through deconstruction. I've, I've been trying and I can't figure out how to do it, how to have a voice to like be able to speak both languages and be able to help evangelicals see and understand why people deconstruct and what that looks like and what it isn't and what it is. I'm having a, I'm struggling because people don't want to hear it. You know what I mean? So it's hard to have a message for people who probably aren't going to listen anyway, because they're so indoctrinated. So I don't know. I hope your, I hope your book lands in the hands of a lot of people who, you know, just like try to understand. I, we're so afraid to hear other perspectives and, you know, that's the whole purpose of my podcast is so people can hear like, just listen, you don't have to believe what they're saying, but just listen to their perspective and see they're an educated, lovely human being created in the image of God. Listen, you know, and see what happens to your heart. It's amazing. Yeah. And like that's, that's like beach or nice thing too. Like when we come across evangelicals in the wild, like in our real life, like, um, like if they're willing to hear our story of, you know, especially trying to accept beach or gender identity is non-binary, because a lot of times like big, they have no clue. They, they have no understanding of it. And I don't even know what it means. Yeah. You didn't know what it meant either. So like we know how to explain it in a way that they can hear because we were that way, um, but when we find people who are just willing to listen, even if they walk away and don't agree with us, the fact that they took the time to listen, like that's all that we ask for. Like we don't have to agree at the end of the day as long as we can like be mutually respectful and not harm someone else because they don't believe what we believe. Like I can accept if you don't, you know, if you think I'm going to hell, like I, whatever, you don't have to tell me I'm going to hell. Like you could keep that to yourself and we could mutually respect each other. Um, which I don't believe in hell anymore. So it literally doesn't mean much to me, but, um, but yeah, I think so much, you know, I, I, I think it's really hard to hate someone if you have dinner with them. Mm. Yeah. And, you know, like, I think there's so much that could be solved and fixed if we actually talked and had conversations. And I know like, like my social media, like Instagram or TikTok, whatever, those videos are not really made for conversation. Like I'm hoping to ignite. I'm hoping to ignite someone to think about stuff like, because I think comedy can disarm people. Yeah. Um, but I know like that's not the best place to have those conversations. No. Yeah. So media in general, not so much. Yeah. Yeah. Face to face eyeball, the eyeball, you know, right. Right. Or like, and hopefully in a book too, like where you can actually be more nuanced. You can't really, there's not a lot of nuance that you can put into like a 60 second sketch. Yeah. Um, it's true, but it is, I mean, it's incredibly relatable and funny because it's like, wow, that's so true. It, nothing is funnier than the truth. Sometimes, you know, right. Just like shining a light on it. Um, let's take a quick break and when we come back, we'll talk just a little bit about what is next for Miss April and your family. And I would love to know a little more about your family. So stick around guys. We'll be right back. Okay. We are back. Thanks for hanging around. I am here with April, a joy. And, uh, you know, this has just been such an interesting and I don't know, really, um, thought provoking conversation. April, just hearing your perspective, everything that you and your spouse have been through and your kids. Uh, I would love to know a little bit more about you guys. Where, where are you from? Where, where do you live now and what does your everyday look like? Sure. Oh, well, originally from Dallas, Texas. Um, but right now we live in Lexington, Kentucky. Um, my, we moved here. Because my spouse teaches at University of Kentucky. It's so pretty there. It is very pretty. It's horse country. Yes. So pretty. Yeah. Um, we have two kids. I have a seven year old, almost eight. Uh, she's in second grade daughter. And then I have a five year old daughter who's going into kindergarten. So this was my, her last year. Somewhat home. Yeah. Um, how are you doing with that? Oh no, I've cried. Oh yeah. I'm sure you, yeah, I've shed many tears, but I'm. It's a being a mom in the time. It's such a weird thing. Like on one hand, you're so excited and happy for them and, and excited for the future. And glad that they're maturing and growing and thriving and doing all the things that kids are supposed to do. But then it's also really sad. She's like, Oh, the baby years are gone. The toddler years are gone. They're going to start needing me less and less. Um, well, my word. Tell me about I'm an empty Napster. So, oh, I know. I had so hard, I can't imagine. Sorry. I didn't mean to bring you down. No, no, it's fine. But we just, we just sigh, but it's all good though. My kids are, they all live close by and they're like my best friends. Love them. Oh, that's awesome. Even though I raised them very strict. We've had a lot of good conversations. They're sweet. They're good. Oh, good. Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I think it helps. Um, that I have apologized for, you know, the fear that I put into them. And the expectations that I put on to them. And I keep saying, you know, if you guys need to go to therapy, like, I'll pay for it. You know, I'm so sorry. And, and they're like, Mom, we're fine. And I think they're fine because they got an apology and they got an acknowledgement that what they went through wasn't necessarily so great. So if you're a parent and you're listening and you're like, man, I feel like I really messed up. No, you didn't just talk about it. They're, they're adults now and they're, they'll be fine. Anyway, sorry. I know, be turned out and I don't think I think the majority of kids, regardless of who your parents are, don't come out unscathed. Like there's going to be something because we're not perfect. Yeah, we're human. Exactly. Wow. So what does your, your life look like? You're, I know you've got one about to start school, but in the fall. Um, yeah, what are you going to do? Do you have plans? Are you going to like do more with what's, what's the thought? Yeah. So I'm, I'm kind of figuring that out. I've never been much of a long term planner. Things have always just kind of happened. Yeah, for me. Um, but yeah. So in the fall though, I'm trying to keep that open because my book's coming out and I've never released like a, I'm like a book with a publisher before. So I don't know what to expect. I'm like, I feel like it's going to be busy. Maybe it won't be, but I know you'll probably be on a lot of podcasts, a lot of signings, things like that. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm sure the fall it'll be all I will, I will not have a problem staying busy. Um, but yeah, right around election time, April, that's great timing. That was by design. I, at first, it's so funny when we first moved here, because we just moved to Lexington last August and the day that we moved in, I got my notes from my publisher because I had just turned in like the first, like the manuscript, the first round and, um, it was bad. Like it was like, you need to redo this. And I was so, so, so, so stressed. Um, so the majority of like the first six months of living here was just me being a hermit and not being social. And like, I'm like, I've got to get this book done. So it'll be nice that like, Oh, I'm actually done now. I can come up for air and try to make some friends and. Enjoy it. Yeah. That'll be fun. Yeah, so exciting. We shall see what we shall. What are you going to be going to any, um, events this summer or this fall that are maybe in the deconstruction community, people might be able to check you out at. Um, potentially, I don't have anything officially scheduled yet. Probably not in the summer and the summer I'm going to be recording my audio book at some point. Yay. Um, so exciting. Yeah. And, um, this, uh, June's actually, um, be sure and I is 10 year anniversary. So we're going to Florida for a few days. Um, it's like our first vacation, just the two of us, like long term, like an actual, like five day vacation since our honey, no, really, it's been a minute. That has. And you've been so busy with kids, I'm sure. So you'll have such a good time. That's awesome. Yeah. So we're excited. We'll, I will keep everybody posted though. Um, okay, I'm sure. Yeah. You may be somewhere. Well, I, yeah, we'll definitely put some links so people can follow you and get to know you a little bit better if they're not over. They probably already are because like you're, you're way bigger than my podcast. We're getting there though. We're getting there. Yeah. Name it and claim it. Name it and claim it. Yeah. That's what I hear. I hear it works. Yeah. Supposedly word on the street. So I will be going to theology beer camp in October. This is my first time doing it. Nice. I decide to go. It would be so fun to hang out. So yeah, I know Tim and I have talked about if we can go. So, you know, a lot depends on what I'm supposed to be doing with my book. And I have no idea. Yeah, that's true. I would like to go. So I might be there if that's one of the events that is potential. Yes. Yes. It's going to be finally happening. Yeah. I'm definitely going to be there. I've been wanting to go the last few years, but like it's my daughter's birthday weekend. So I never wanted to do it. But this year I was like, so what do you think? Ken, her name is Kennedy. She's like, Mom, I'm going to be 26. You don't need to be here for my birthday. OK, that's a good point. So anyway, I guess I'm not as needed, which is fine. It's fine. I'm going to be fine. But anyway, you have just been such a delight. I've loved getting to know your journey a little better and just what you're up to. And I appreciate what you're bringing, not just to the deconstruction community, but also hopefully some evangelicals who want to kind of. Understand us better will, you know, maybe pick up your book in the fall. Is there a way to get it early or are you just waiting for it to come out? Yeah, it's actually available. Well, you won't get it early. You can pre-order it now. OK, OK, yes, it's available for pre-order pretty much anywhere. Books are sold. And then, yeah, you'll get it October 1st. Oh, wow, that's so exciting. OK, well, good. I'm hoping that it will get in the hands of some people who might even around that time of year, possibly near the election, be considering other alternatives and other ways of thought and, you know, learning to think more critically. We'll see. Hopefully. A girl can hope. And anyway, thank you so much for coming on April. I appreciate your time and I honor your journey. I'm so, so thankful that you and Beacher. It just seems like you've been through a lot over the last few years. And it sounds like you've come out on top and I love that. That makes me very, very happy. You found your people and you've got your amazing little family. It's going to be awesome. So thank you. Everything. Thank you. I appreciate it. And name and claim this podcast is going to be huge. Oh, yeah, huge, ginormous. Prophecy, prophesy right here. And now. Lay hands. Yeah. Thank you, April. 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