Americans love using their credit cards, the most secure and hassle-free way to pay. But DC politicians want to change that with the Durban Marshall Credit Card Bill. This bill lets corporate megastores pick how your credit card is processed, allowing them to use untested payment networks that jeopardize your data security and rewards. Corporate megastores will make more money, and you pay the price. Tell Congress to guard your card, because Americans lose when politicians choose. Learn more at guardyourcard.com. This Wirecast podcast episode is brought to you by Wild Olive, where we host game-changing conversation about literature, culture, and the Bible. I'm Jennifer Bird, a biblical scholar. And I'm Jean Petrol, a literature scholar. If you want to change your Bible reading game, you can try reading the Bible as literature. The way writers such as Emily Dickinson, Octavia Butler, Ursula Le Guin, James Baldwin, or Tony Kushner do. Every other week, we let modern writers give a fresh take on a familiar Bible story. Tune in to Wild Olive, wherever you get your podcasts. Today is the final day of "Quire Week," right here on "Honoring the Journey." And today, you're actually going to hear a little bit from me about my upcoming book. It is with prior publishing. It's called "Honoring the Journey," the deconstruction of Sister Christian. And it's kind of like a memoir, but also a lot more than that. Because I also kind of share some of the insights that I have. What I've learned in this journey of deconstruction, what brought me here, and how I have handled it. It's been quite the journey. And I can't wait to share really what all I'm going to do is read the introduction to you. It takes about 15 minutes or so. And then after that, Rachel Wonderly is here with me today. And she's going to help me answer some questions that have been sent in. I love doing the Q&A's because the people are just curious about certain things that are going on in my heart and my life. And also in Rachel's. And this is a chance for us to just sit down and kind of riff about some of the things and questions that people have. So I can't wait to share this episode with you. Thank you so much for being here today. And thank you for honoring the journeys of so many choir authors this week. It's been so much fun. And I hope you've enjoyed it. And without further ado, let's go with today's episode, the very last one of choir week on honoring the journey. Hi and welcome back to honoring the journey. I'm Leslie Neese, your host. And today I am sitting down with my friend Rachel Wonderly. You may remember her from episode 15 and also episode 19 here on honoring the journey. Hello, Rachel, welcome. What's up? Can't wait to be back or I'm excited that I am back. I'm excited you're back because now you're like a mom. You gave birth to a child. My goodness, a human and it was a wild experience. How are you feeling? How's everything going with it? I feel great now. It took a minute, but now it's it's lovely. Oh, yeah, it's a lot of work. Pregnant, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, see, I loved being pregnant, but I don't like telling people that because most people don't. Personally, I loved it, but that's funny because I feel like I'm the oddball out and everyone else is the ones that loved it. And I'm like the one that's like, okay, screw that never again. Yeah. Oh, no, it was fun. Well, congratulations. Thank you. So cute. Oh, I've just loved the pictures you're posting and all the little stories you're sharing. It's it's really fun. It's, you know, like it helps me remember being a new mom for the first time and how magical it was and exhausting and horrifying and wonderful. It's like everything all at once. So anyway, I'm so glad. Yeah, he's so cute and like I never thought that I'd be able to have my own kids. So this is all a surprise and all blessing and it's he's great. Oh, I'm so excited for you. And I'm so thankful that you're with me today. I've missed having you around. Yeah, I just keep roping your in guys. I'm like, come on, Rachel, let's go hang out on on microphones and talk about stuff because you're so good at riffing. You're good at like when I have a, I'm like, I want to do this, but I really don't want to do it by myself. And I think Rachel would bring such a fun, you know, younger perspective because I'm a little bit older and I'm like, it's just really, we have a good, I think we have a good little chemistry going. So thank you for joining me for the Q and A episode. And it is the end right now. This is the last day of choir week. And I hope that you have been listening and enjoying the really, really incredible and diverse interviews that I've had this week from people who write books through choir publishing. And I'm actually in the process of writing a book. It's, well, I finished my part. Now they're doing their part as publishers. Yeah. I know it's so exciting. So exciting. Congrats. That's a cover the other day. I sent it to you, Rachel. Remember? Yeah, the cover looks amazing. I showed my boyfriend immediately. I was like, this is so cool. Real. It's a, it felt very real. I almost like almost felt. I don't know. I kind of felt like I was going to throw up for a second because it was just like, wait a minute. This is really happening. This is not just, you know, a thing that's going to happen one day. Like it's really happening. So yeah, you're putting a lot out there and that's like a vulnerable place to be. And it's, I'm glad that you're doing it because you're paving the way the rest of us. I don't, I would love to write a book, but like, what am I going to say? I'm going to read yours first and really it's just being, being honest about where you're at and just, it didn't start out as a book. It really didn't. I kind of just started writing about my deconstruction process really because when I write, I learn. It's weird. And, and I know when I've written two other books before, which by the way, please don't look them up or buy them because, you know, they'll publish not very. Yeah, I don't know. Well, my second one wasn't bad. It's just a very different view than what I have now. So any who I digress, but like in writing those books, I just remember when it was over, I was like, man, I just want to write another one because that was. It was just such a great experience learning what I believed and in my perspectives and how they had changed over the years and the things that I learned from my past and could pass on to my kids. It was just really a powerful experience. And yeah, what type of audience or do you think is going to like connect with your book the most side from people who are like, I don't know, who have listened to this podcast before. Yeah. Well, I think, of course, the deconstruction community, I think you'll find a lot in it. It's not just like a memoir, even though it is, it's also a place where I talk about the things that I've learned through the process of deconstruction and how it challenged me emotionally, mentally, spiritually, even physically at times, you know. So it's, it is my story, but it's also, I weave in a lot of things I've learned about, you know, hell and, you know, evil and Satan and all the things that used to scare me. I, you know, I talk about fear and love. I talk about permissive versus restrictive faith. I talk about the underbelly of ministry and how difficult that was for me. So there's a lot in there that I think people who are deconstructing are going to appreciate and relate to. But I also, I have a hunch, hopefully, maybe some people from my past who don't want to talk to me right now because they don't know what to say or they're afraid, I'll, you know, send them to hell or whatever. I really hope that they'll read it and see my heart and understand why I've come to the conclusions that I have and why I've taken this journey and why I had to start talking about it. A lot of people are very upset that I've started sharing my journey and, and I get it, I do, it's, it's, it's hard to break away from something that feels like your purpose and your, your life and the reason for your existence. You know, it's hard when somebody pushes up against that. And so I hope that they'll read it because it's a way that they can kind of understand where I'm coming from without having to talk to me, which it's sad, but. No, it's not only sad, but it's like, I remember being in that exact same boat with one of my best friends who left the faith, I guess like baby two years before me. And I remember like, I was hanging out with her with my ex who passed away and we were both still in the faith and she would just, you know, make comments here and there. And I remember like that we never stopped being friends. I never like pushed her away and think she's still one of my best friends to this day, but like I do remember feeling this fear. And now I look back and I'm like, well, I was afraid that what she was saying was going to make sense. And if it made sense, then I'd have to look into it a little more. And if I looked into it a little more than I was afraid of what I'd find. And at the end of the day, it's like, that's such a scary thing that we totally need to acknowledge that's good to acknowledge that it's like we get it that this is going to be a scary experience. But if your faith is, you know, based in truth, I guess then, the truth will reveal itself regardless of what the outcomes that you thought it would be. That is so true. And I also, I want to encourage people like, don't be afraid to listen. Don't be afraid to learn. If your faith in God is as strong as you say, and if you believe that God can be trusted, then no matter where I'm at in my walk, you can trust God with me. If that is, if that is your fear that I'm a mess and that I'm this or whatever, trust that God has me. You know, my whole purpose in this wasn't to run away from God. It was to know God better. It was to understand who God is not from an interpretation or indoctrination or, you know, somebody else's opinion. I really wanted to find out, like, I came out from underneath of indoctrination to try to find who God is to me. And I think, I think that can sound a little scary to people because it's like, well, if you're not trusting this or if you're not following this way, you know, you're going to get deceived. But I have just decided I'm jumping in and I'm trusting that God isn't going to let me drown. And he hasn't. Yeah, I mean, if anyone's listening who's like me, I would start to think like that a little bit and then what would stop me from pursuing the actual search of like what do I believe personally was this idea that I was not as capable of finding truth as like my pastor because my pastor went to Bible school and has so much Bible knowledge, specific to the school that they went to in that interpretation, but yeah, but I digress. Yeah, I started just not looking into as much because it's exhausting. It's a daunting experience. Like, it's like this long hold that you don't know when it's going to end and you're like, I, I didn't even want to start because I'm like, well, if my pastor's telling me that this is true. It probably is and he did all the work and went all the school. You don't have to be super educated in the Bible to pursue within Christianity what you believe yourself. And I think like if anyone's listening who doesn't want to look into something because they don't, you don't trust that like you don't have the capability or the brains to do it or the education to do it. You do. You do. You absolutely do. You're a human. Yeah, you're a human being and you have a perspective, whether you like it or not. Yeah, who was at that? Oh, it was. Oh, I can't remember which of the interviews this week on choir, choir week. We talked about how like everyone, it was probably Eric Rayton. We talked about how everyone has a perspective, whether you like it or not. But anyway, I, so today we do have some questions that have been sent in to the show to me personally from friends, a lot of them evangelical friends who like I'm so appreciative of people who go, okay, I don't really get what you're doing, or why you're doing it, but I love you. And I, so here I'm just going to ask you some questions and listen, come to me with those questions. I am not afraid. And I will even have a conversation with you if you want. It's just that a lot of people don't want to talk to me. Or they think I'm too far gone. And that's fine. You can think that I, like I'm so far past all that. But we're going to go into those questions here in a minute and I'm going to, I'm going to answer them from my perspective. Rachel's going to answer them from hers. And the thing that's so cool is you'll see like a lot of times I think Rachel and I really at this point have very similar, you know, beliefs or whatever, but there may be things that she sees different. And I'm not going to be like, well, dang, you don't see it my way than off of my podcast. I want you here. I want to hear everyone's perspective. And I want, because the more I'm exposed to it, the less fearful I feel. And the less intimidated I feel about hearing a new perspective. And, you know, I just think it's really important. So that's kind of why I'm doing the podcast. But before I do that, I wanted to read a little excerpt. This is the introduction to my book. And I think it kind of sets the stage. Yeah, you know, everybody buckle in. Here I go. Can we just acknowledge the fact that you just said the introduction to my book. Like, I know I'm going to grow up again. Stop it. No, it's called honoring the journey. I was thinking of calling it honoring my journey, the deconstruction of sister Christian, but I was like, this is my podcast. This is kind of. I want to honor the journey. I don't care whose journey it is mine yours. It's the journey. So I'm going to honor my journey by writing a book and. And it really is about my deconstruction. So. All right. I'm going to start. It's a few pages and I'm sorry if it's too long for you, but hopefully you'll enjoy it. And this will be what you'll hear because I'm going to be. I'm narrating it myself. The audio book. Yes. It's so fun. I know. Again, I might throw up. But anyway, all right, get out your popcorn, people. Yeah. Get comfy. Here we go. It's story time with Leslie need. All right. I'm not sure when the questions began about my theological beliefs, as long as I. Okay, wait, I got to start over because I already messed up. Hang on. This is going to be an interesting audio book. I'm not sure when the questions about my theological beliefs began as I look back in my old journal entries. I see the questions began a long time ago. But I would dismiss them and even ask God to forgive me for doubting. It felt like as hard as I fought to stay on the road I was on. It didn't matter because I was going down the deconstruction road, whether I liked it or not. And I didn't like it when it first started, not one bit. The questions and doubts may have started when I worked in ministries and saw the underbelly of what I thought would be a wonderful place to be and work. I had such visions of grandeur. I honestly felt so honored to be part of a ministry that would help people find out more about God, Jesus, and all the things I felt so passionately about. I realized fairly quickly that my thoughts about ministry being such a sacred and beautiful space to serve were not the actual reality of how things work, though. The underbelly of ministry is not something you can unsee. It's disillusioning. I get it. We are human beings. We're not infallible. I don't expect perfection. I think I just had bigger expectations for a system that claimed to represent God. After all, the Bible was pretty clear that if you're in ministry, you're held to a higher standard. The doubts and questions intensified when I was a contestant on Survivor China in 2007, where during my journey, I realized quickly how the world perceived Christians. It was the first time I left my protected Christian bubble in South Carolina, the buckle of the Bible Belt, and I lived among other religions, cultures, and lifestyles. Eventually, my questions and doubts grew when I started wondering about how we could be so cruel to people in the LGBTQ community by insisting that the Bible says they are going to hell. We would say we accepted their, quote, "lifestyle," unquote, and would invite them to be a church member, but would draw the line by insisting that they can't serve God. Oh, but we'll accept your tithe, of course. In my research, I found the word homosexual wasn't even an actual word until 1868. How did it get in the Bible, a book that was written over 2,000 years ago anyway? There was also the whole doctrine of hell. This gave me tremendous pause. For years, I tried so desperately to understand how God could send people who don't believe in him in the way that I was taught to believe, to hell for eternity, and why he would ever do that if he is, as we've been told, the definition of love. Then again, perhaps the questions really amped up when I moved from the evangelical Bible belt to Utah and lived as a minority among a completely different religion, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Hearing the life journeys of other people from a different religion really opened my eyes and my heart so much. No matter when the questions really started, I feel like the first one led to the next one, and so on. The questions just kept coming. I found answers, but the answers weren't at all what I expected. I really expected to find that everything I had believed was true, every bit of it. I really expected to end up back in the evangelical pew at some point. I'm more shocked than anyone that I ended up leaving and never planning on going back. Seriously, I'm the last person on earth who I thought would ever turn away from what I'd come to believe with all of my heart was the absolute truth. I was always afraid to tell people in my past evangelical circles that I was struggling with doubt because I knew what they would say even though I knew the correct and incorrect answers to their questions. Here are two specific things that I knew I'd be asked if I talked openly and publicly about my doubts and questions. Leslie, are you in fellowship with other believers? Translated. Are you getting theological teaching from an evangelical church surrounded by evangelical Christians who all agree with what is being taught? If not, you're being deceived and you were probably never truly one of us anyway. Which, by the way, I get that a lot. Leslie, are you in the word? Translated. If what you say doesn't line up with the interpretation of the Bible that I have been taught as truth, I refuse to listen to you anymore. You are being misled and are backslidden having gone down the slippery slope, and you've clearly been deceived by Satan. If you want truth, that's where you find it. Nowhere else. Both of those questions are the very first things Christians and evangelicals ask me, at least the ones in my circle. I know this personally because I was one of those people. I used to ask the same exact questions to people who wrestled with questions or doubt. The problem is, that is how it keeps you believing those theological "truths" when you have zero exposure to any other thought process. Of course, you're going to continue to believe what you've been taught over and over again. That's human nature 101. Before we proceed, I want to let you know, I do still believe in God. I believe in Jesus. I'm not an atheist or even agnostic. I believe more now, more than I ever have. It just looks different now, and it feels different. One of the main reasons it feels different is because none of my beliefs are rooted in fear anymore. We will get to that a bit later, but I wanted to mention it because I know that feeling some of you who may still be an evil person. You still be in evangelical circles may have as you read this book. The fear that makes you worry for my eternity. The fear that makes you put me at the top of your prayer list and call your accountability partner and tell them all about my "deception" unquote. And perhaps even mention to them that she was probably never really one of us. But I really was one of you. I was all in, completely surrendered, fully immersed. There may even be a fear that you won't discuss out loud. The fear that maybe if it can happen to me, it could happen to you too. I actually understand every fear you may have because I felt them all. I think we have got wrong on so many levels in the American evangelical church. Perhaps if you think there may be some truth to that, this book is for you. If you think what I'm saying is misled or deceptive, this book is still for you, but it's going to be difficult at times. It's difficult because some of the things I will share will go against your core beliefs, the beliefs that define you, that make you feel secure and feel absolutely right and true to you. Please know I'm not trying to change those beliefs at all. I'm just trying to be honest about how I see things now, my perspective, my journey. Truthfully, I'm certain my beliefs will change even more over time. I'll probably read this book in a few years and think, wow, I've changed some beliefs since then. I wrote a couple of other books self-published when I was an evangelical and I don't regret those books. They were all part of my personal faith journey. However, I can say many of the things I wrote about are not how I see it now. It's what I believed about faith and life at those times in my life. One was written in 2003, one in 2014. I was at the height of my ministry in 2014, having been on Christian radio creating and producing podcasts, speaking at events, writing, even taking a televised stand for Jesus in 2007, on survivor China, where they called me sister Christian, while over 15 million people worldwide watched. I have zero regrets about where I've been, but I will tell you, I honestly thought I had all the answers then because everything I taught was from the Bible. If the Bible said it, I believed it and that settled it. Everything else was deception. I felt sorry for people who didn't have a biblical worldview. I felt superior. I felt right. I felt sure that everything I believed and was taught was the absolute truth. I had the Holy Spirit and the Spirit leads us into truth. If you weren't a born-again Christian like me, you didn't have the Holy Spirit, so you didn't have truth and I didn't respect you. I didn't listen to anything you had to say because of that fact. I used to believe the Bible was the only way God spoke to us and I only knew it according to the translations, commentaries, and interpretations of my evangelical teachers and pastors. Those leaders taught me which teachers to avoid and which teachers to embrace. I followed their guidance to the letter. I welcomed John MacArthur, James McDonald, and other high-profile pastors. Let's not talk about how cringe these two have become in recent years. I was careful not to read or listen to Rob Bell, Rachel Held Evans, or Jen Hatmaker. They were heretics, I was told. Their ideas were from Satan, some said. I never even gave them the time of day. I would see their names in shutter. I didn't realize until a few years into my faith transition that what I was going through is actually called deconstruction. I thought I was the only one going through it until I heard someone discussing it on a podcast. I'd never loved the term deconstruction because it sounds an awful lot like the word destruction. I don't feel like I'm destroying my faith at all. I feel like I'm just solidifying it. I'm taking it apart, looking at each of the important theologies I was taught, studying where they came from, who initially taught the theology, and holding the teachings up to the way Jesus taught and lived his life. Deconstruction for me is really just an untangling, a weighing, a deep dive, and an honest look at everything I was taught in the evangelical church. I simply want to be sure that what I was taught is actually what I believe. I'm just trying to clarify my faith, not destroy it. I still consider myself a woman of faith. Here's something foundational that I've discovered through the past seven years of my faith transition. When I finally realized this, things got so much clearer for me. We all live in the same world, the physical world anyway, but each of us has our own inside world. This world is composed of our beliefs, personality, cultural influences, experiences, values, convictions. I feel like so many times we bump up against each other because we're trying way too hard to bring everyone in our outside world into our inside world. We want to be understood and we want our beliefs to be affirmed. When someone believes something else, instead of stopping and listening to them to understand them better, we have one-way conversations that basically consist of us feeling offended that they don't believe the way we do. Our outside world doesn't really change much on this side of death, but our inside world can change often as we learn, grow, and evolve as humans. That is, if we let it. The process I've been through over the past several years is like being born into an inside world. Physical birth can be a traumatic and painful experience for both the mother and the baby. That's how I describe what I've been going through the past several years. The contractions, the doubts, questions with no solid answers. I experienced, almost took my breath away at times. Sometimes the questions and doubts came closer and closer together causing me to feel disoriented and honestly a bit scared. I was afraid to leave my safe, comfortable, theological quote, womb, unquote. But things were beginning to get serious when I entered into what is known in physical birth as "transition." This is the time when the mother is delirious with pain, completely exhausted, and the contractions are piling one on top of the other. You can probably recall this very well. Oh, yes. Sorry. Sorry if I'm triggering you in anyway. Okay, sorry. I digress. All right. Eventually the baby is born into the world during this time and there is no going back. The baby knows instinctively that it's time to let go. That's exactly how I felt when I finally realized that my womb was no longer where I belonged. The world got bigger, more mysterious, more expansive, more beautiful, and a lot freer. I was not going back and I knew it. The world I used to inhabit in my heart and mine no longer existed the way it did before. This process was incredibly painful, incredibly lonely, incredibly unexpected, and after some time, incredibly freeing. I remember the day I gave myself permission to explore my questions and my doubts about theology. I told myself I was just going to look around a bit, but I'd go right back to where I was before at some point. I just knew it. I prayed so hard. God, please don't let me go anywhere. You wouldn't want me to go. I believed wholeheartedly that my faith was strong enough and that there was nothing that could ever change my mind about my theology. But in my heart, I knew I needed to explore these questions or I'd never feel quite right. My heart in my mind didn't line up with so many beliefs that I was taught in my faith tradition. There were so many things I'd been taught that I understood in my mind, but I couldn't wrap my heart around teachings that were exclusive, cruel, and even contraindicated to what I knew to be true about God. I had to explore those questions and doubts. Actually, I felt like everyone should. One of the main reasons I decided to pull away from attending church in 2017 was because initially I wanted to protect my brothers and sisters in Christ from me. I was scared of the questioning, the doubting, and the thoughts that I was having. I didn't want that to rub off on anyone else. And I honestly felt like I might be a heathen or a heretic or possessed by a demon or something, even though I was taught Christians can't be possessed just oppressed. I didn't want to confuse anyone else with my questions and doubts. And honestly, there didn't seem to be a space for me in my community because everyone was just trying to pray my doubts and my questions away, not face them. And if theology works for someone, why complicate things for them? Just because I was having these doubts and questions didn't mean I wanted others to go through what I was going through. I didn't want to be a negative influence. And honestly, after all I'd been taught in evangelicalism, I knew I was on what they would consider a slippery slope. But I had to go. I felt I didn't have a choice. I remember talking with a friend when I first stopped attending church, and she said the evangelical church could represent the boat the disciples were in when they saw Jesus walking on the water. He called Peter out to the water with him away from the boat. Perhaps that's what Jesus was doing with me. But he had been calling me out of the boat onto the water for some alone time intimacy. And at some point, perhaps he and I would get back into the boat. And then things would go back to normal. I truly believed I would find the answers I was looking for and then get back in the safety of my boat. I never felt him call me back to the boat. And I definitely didn't feel like he was going back in the boat either. As a matter of fact, I felt like he was showing me all the people around me who were drowning because they were leaving the evangelical church for various reasons, but they were not keeping their eyes on him. I was overwhelmed that so many were leaving and just giving up on God completely. They were either hurt or then injured by the theology of the evangelical church or so disillusioned by the questions that didn't have solid answers that they were giving up on everything. As I look back at the boat, I realize the evangelical American Christian church was made by men, not by God. It was built with hands, not hearts. It was not going to withstand the storms of life for much longer. And before long, the boat would be underwater completely if something didn't change. I knew then that Jesus was always going to be a part of whatever I was headed toward, even if it may not be that Jesus I was taught about. I needed to trust that my relationship with him was going to be solid enough with or without the evangelical boat, which to me seems to be sinking at an alarming rate. I guess you could say I followed Jesus right out of the church so I could get to know him personally. And newsflash, he's amazing. There are, of course, some great things I learned from my time in American Christian evangelical spaces. For instance, the importance of community, the importance of connecting with God, the beauty of Jesus and the study of Scripture. It was all so wonderful for me in so many ways. Those are not the parts I struggle with in the least. The parts I struggle with are the dogmatic interpretations, extreme judgmental attitudes, beer-based theologies, misogyny, patriarchy, the political bend and the us versus them mentality that is so prevalent in many church communities. There were also some pretty wonderful people with big hearts, open minds and a lot of love. Underneath of it all for me was an underlying fear. Fear of disappointing God, fear of hell, fear of God, fear of the enemy, quote unquote. Fear of other people who believe differently and fear of backsliding, which is the Christian term that they use when someone begins to sin and their life slides back into the worldly ways they came from prior to becoming a Christian. The fear was enveloping and it was so much to carry. And even though I was taught to, quote, give it to Jesus, unquote, I wasn't sure what that looked like practically. How do you give fears away? Fear has its own heartbeat. It has its own life. And the strange thing is I didn't even realize I was so afraid until I was able to step away and look at things from a new perspective until I was able to let it all go. And this took years. My desire is not to demonize the church or some of the people in it, but to share what I've been through and why I personally left. I realize there are good wholesome things about some evangelical spaces. But there is also an underbelly that too often gets swept under the rug by churches and ministries. I'm not sure if it's an effort to protect God, to protect the people involved or to protect the church system. But I know the reasons for not exposing things are not founded in the scripture the church holds so sacredly. It's actually in complete contradiction to those very scriptures. There were good times, hard times, deeply spiritual times and I want to bring honor to the journey I've had and I'm still having by acknowledging that. My purpose in writing this book is not to convince you that what I believe is how you should believe. I'm not trying to deconvert or lead you anywhere you don't want to go. I realize you can't take somebody someplace they're not ready to go anyway. This book is my desire to share my experience and honor my journey. I honor yours too, whatever it may look like. Every life journey deserves to be honored. Listening, really listening to someone's story, to understand them and to know them better. Not to judge them or try to make an argument against what they believe is so important. I wasn't taught that in American evangelicalism. I was taught to listen so I could defend my own beliefs, not to try to understand someone else's. But honestly it's impossible to make an informed decision about something until you've heard all sides of the story. This is my side of the story. This is how I see things now. I'm not sure if you're aware but there are a lot of people leaving evangelicalism right now and many of them are leaving God altogether. It's so important that we all learn to listen to them, not judge them. One of the worst things you can say to someone who has left the church is, well that's just not my experience. My experience has been nothing but wonderful. Saying something like that to someone going through a very difficult faith journey is so invalidating and goes along the lines of gaslighting. Instead maybe just say, I'm so sorry that happened to you and then listen. Perhaps my story will give you a bit of insight into those in your life who have also followed Jesus right out of the evangelical spaces you may believe are so safe and secure. And if you're the one who's considering leaving, I'm so glad you're here. This process is a difficult one and it's not for the faint of heart, but it's been one of the most freeing and important journeys I've ever taken. I hope you will see that you are most certainly not alone. Wow. Wow, well you have a great audio book voice for starters. Yay, good. That was very like I could have kept listening for hours so I can't wait. Well you will if you get the book. Well I can read it specifically for you if you want, but yeah, I don't know. I think they want to have the book finished and edit it, you know, all of that, you know, before we release it. Well, I mean, it's just the foundation of my, so amazing. I like, I mean, I wish I could have written down every single nugget in there, but I loved, I loved how you wrapped it up because I feel like that's so relatable. You kind of pulled everyone back into it like everybody who's experiencing any type of anything. And in the beginning, when you were saying like your fear and talking to people, you didn't want to do that because you knew their response would be up, up, up. The fact that that response is so accurate and I can sit here having gone to a different church and say that that is the same experience. And I hope that that registers to some people and the fact that you call on people to listen to someone else's experience instead of just trying to figure out what you're going to say to prove that your beliefs are true. Like, I mean, that's so important. I mean, people's experiences are the most real thing we have to go off of. Right. It's more real than most of the stuff in the Bible that we don't have proof of like someone's experience that they're experiencing right now is so, so valuable. And the fact that you can see what I also can see now so clearly which because I did the same thing, which was not really listened to other people's experience or story. It was just kind of like, how am I going to get them to then think that what I believe is true. It gets super powerful to the listening end. So I'm so pumped for everyone who's going to be able to listen to this book because I think so many different phases of the journey are going to gravitate towards your experience. Well, and, you know, it's my journey. Listen, you can argue with me if you want. I'm not going to argue back because I'm done with all that. I did that long enough. I was taught how to do that in in arguing classes. I mean, apologetics class. You know, and I took a lot of them and I was really good at it, but the problem is I missed so much of people's genuine humanity, because when I would have a question or when I would talk to them about things, I would pretend to care. But really my brain was just the whole time thinking what am I going to say to this person because they're, they're deceived and they're down the slippery slope and they're dumb and they're, you know, I have all the answers. I know everything. I have the absolute truth, you know, so right. It was, it's been a very humbling journey, I might say. For sure. Yeah, you're like, oh, so I don't have all the answers. Yeah, it's honestly like it's, that took me a while to feel like that was the freeing part of the experience, because I thought that it was freeing to feel like I did have all the answers. But now I'm capable of going into any and all conversations with anybody and with confidence, because I'm okay with saying, I'm not really sure there. Yeah, I don't have the answer to that one. Whereas before when I was essentially almost a pastor, I'd meet with people all the time. And I'd always have this pressure kind of in the back of my mind of like, okay, gear up, make sure you have an answer that's going to be the truth for everything. Make sure you know it has to be a scripture, because they can argue with scripture. Right. So, yeah, I mean, that that is now super freeing to just be able to be like, oh, actually, that's a great thought. Let's explore that more. I'm going to explore that on my own. This is like, I don't know. It's fun. It's fun. I mean, I think that's what life is all about is, is just, I mean, other people are put in your life for a reason, and it's not to turn them into you. Exactly. Wow. It's to help you become a better, more loving, more aware, self-aware, and other people aware person. You know, I mean, I was none of those in evangelicalism. Like, I really thought people loved hearing what I had to say all the time because I was always right. But I was only talking to people who wanted to hear what I had to say. And if I talk to people who didn't want to hear what I had to say, I was delusional and thought, well, they love it too, because it's truth. Yeah. You know, and now that, you know, I'm kind of away from all of that and, you know, having real relationships with people, people are being honest with me. Like, yeah, you were freaking annoying. That's so funny. I'm so sorry. I really am so sorry. It's what we're taught, you know, but anyway. Well, Rachel, we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to get into these questions. We got some doozies that people have been sending me. So thank you for hanging out with us guys. We'll be right back. This podcast is sponsored by TalkSpace. You know, when you're really stressed or not feeling so great about your life or about yourself, talking to someone who understands can really help. But who is that person? How do you find them? Where do you even start? TalkSpace. TalkSpace makes it easy to get the support you need. With TalkSpace, you can go online, answer a few questions about your preferences, and be matched with a therapist. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You'll meet on your schedule. Wherever you feel most at ease. If you're depressed, stressed, struggling with a relationship, or if you want some counseling for you and your partner, or just need a little extra one-on-one support, TalkSpace is here for you. Plus, TalkSpace works with most major insurers, and most insured members have a $0 copay. No insurance? No problem. Now, get $80 off of your first month with promo code space80 when you go to talkspace.com. Match with a licensed therapist today at talkspace.com. Save $80 with code space80@talkspace.com. Welcome back to "Honoring the Journey." It's Leslie and Rachel here with our question and answer component of this episode. I've gotten a couple of questions. I'm going to ask you first, Rachel. There are questions kind of directed at me, but I also want to know your perspective on this, too, because I feel like it's important for people to hear that, "Oh, my gosh. They can be friends and have a different perspective. What on earth?" So, here it is. I know. They actually get along. So here's the very first question. You ready? Yeah. All right. Now that you're deconstructing, how do you find purpose in life? I feel like the world got pulled out from underneath of me. Yeah. I mean, super relatable. The world was completely shred to pieces. My worldview was shredded to pieces when all of this started. So I think self-awareness is so important because when you are indoctrinated into any type of belief system that you haven't questioned yourself and kind of found your own opinion of it yourself, you're not self-aware. And I didn't even realize that this was the case. So I'm frolicking about life in religion and thinking that I'm totally self-aware because I was in certain ways, but I wasn't self-aware of what keeps me grounded, what actually brings me peace, what actually brings me joy. I just kind of chalked it up to like, well, of course, worship music does that. Or, of course, God, when I pray, like, okay, the typical primary answers. But one thing that I've really had to do, and this is like a practice. It's like learning how to meditate. Meditations really hard. But one of the things I've had to do as a practice in my deconstruction is be super still and aware of my self-awareness and what helps me. So, like, right now, for example, I know for a fact that if I get outside, unless it's scorching hot, but if I get outside and it's fairly nice outside, I know that I'm automatically going to feel a little bit less anxious. Even if I don't feel like I have anxiety in that moment, like, if I get outside, I'm going to feel like a little less anxious. And so I'm like, okay, well, I don't need my religious beliefs for that. Like, that's a coping mechanism. It's the coping mechanisms that you want to find that help you like bring yourself out. So if you can, like, be self-aware enough to learn, because you probably don't know what they are yet, but learn outside of the typical, yeah, praying helps and worship music helps or whatever. Like, what brings you joy, what brings you peace and add those things, be diligent about adding those things into your daily life. Like, then that's going to help the process, because for me, I really, like, I still struggle with having lost kind of worship music as my realm of, like, I just turned on and automatically feeling good. But there's a lot of things that make me feel good, soaking my feet in the shower, the sound of the shower, the feeling on my feet. I've done that technique since I was 16, and now I just do it more, because I know that's worked, and it makes me feel in touch with myself. And as many things as you can bring into your life where you're like, "Oh, no, that actually helps every single time. That helps me keep doing those things. That's what helps me survive daily." And you'll find so many, but you have to, like, be aware, have repetition in your life so that you can kind of learn like, "Okay, maybe I thought that worked, but now I've done it three times, so it's not really doing it for me." Yeah, and you have to try. Yeah, it's like finding a new therapist. You gotta be like, sometimes, just because they say they're a therapist, doesn't mean they're the right one for you. You gotta find your own coping mechanism and your own things that bring you peace. Meditation might make you annoyed. It makes me annoyed because I can't do it. So, when everyone's like, "Well, just try meditation." It's like, "No, I can't do it." So, it pisses me off. So, find the things that work for you that bring you that same level of, like, peace that certain things within your religion do. And I think the more you bring those into your life, the less absence you'll notice of love. I love it. Very good. So good. Good advice. And for me, you know, now that I'm deconstructing, "How do I find purpose in life?" It's so funny that you ask that because I feel like my purpose is so much bigger now. Like, before, I mean, I felt I actually felt like the other one. It felt like a lot more of a purpose, but I felt like I always felt short of it because I was the mouthpiece of the God of the universe. You know, I had the message of salvation. There was so much pressure to have that purpose and everything I did. I mean, I remember when they interviewed me for Survivor and they said, "Why do you want to be on Survivor?" I was like, "Well, I mean, no matter where I go, whether it's the grocery store or church or survivor, I am a missionary. I am taking the good news of Jesus Christ with me." I literally, everything I did was to bring people to Christ. And so my purpose, yeah, you talk about the world being pulled out from underneath you. Like, all of a sudden, it's like, "Well, if that's not my purpose, then what the heck am I here for?" And so finding what that purpose is outside of that has been huge. And I feel like my purpose now is so much, I don't know, it's so much more about love. It's so much more about listening. It's so much more about connecting. It's so much more... It's just deeper. Even though it felt like what I was doing was so important and so deep, it felt flat because it wasn't backed up with action, like love. My way of loving people was to be desperate for them and try to get them out of hell. And you're trying to convince somebody, you are about to get run over by a train and they're like, "Babe, there's no train. What are you talking about?" And so now it's just in the moment. Every day, my purpose is what... I mean, it changes daily. Today, my purpose is to have this amazing conversation with Rachel and to wrap up choir week with honoring the journey. And there's so many different things that now... I think I would look at those things as things that got in the way and now they're important to me. Do you know what I mean? Oh, totally. No, I feel like I answered the question weird because I was kind of giving coping mechanisms. No, but that's a big deal, though. Such a big deal. As I'm listening to you, I'm like, "Well, I can see your purpose easily." So a few thoughts that I had while you were talking is like, if you have people in your life who you trust unequivocally, they just know your heart, ask them. In those moments where you can't figure it out yourself and you're exhausted because this is an exhausting experience, any type of deconstruction, or just change of a worldview, it's exhausting. So trust the people in your life who you know love you to your core and ask them, "I need help seeing a different perspective of what my purpose is." Because yours, I mean the book that you're writing, it's so obvious that obviously one of your purposes is helping people in transition because you've been through so much that you don't even have to go learn new things to help those people. It's just your experience alone is enough so now that you're adding learning new things into that too. It's just going to skyrocket and I can't even begin to fathom the amount of people that are going to be helped by this podcast and the book. But that's obvious to me because I'm looking from the inside out. When I asked somebody this, I asked one of my best friends who has been with me through this whole journey who went to my old church. And she would probably say like, "You're so good at making people laugh." And I forget how valuable laughter is when you're dealing with pain, when you're dealing with grief, because laughter, if you're laughing, like in that moment, you're not thinking about anything else. Like, that is, it's so powerful to me. I think comedy is just the best. And so if I can make someone laugh every single day, then that is fine with that. I'm fine with that being my purpose. Oh, I love it. Well, and you're going to be doing more of that. I can't wait until your podcast comes out. We were really going full steam ahead and then she was like, "Oh, yeah, you know, I'm going to have a baby." And maybe we should just focus on that for now. And we'll get your podcast out eventually. So I'm excited. Yeah, no, I'm excited too. Because I can think about that. Enjoy this first few months. You know what I mean? Like, there is no rush. People can wait. You know what I mean? Like, he is only this age for a little bit. But I do know what it's like to be chomping at the bit to like get that going. Because I get your passion. Yeah. I mean, entertainment. I love entertainment. I love music. I love making people laugh. If I could combine those two, that would be the dream. But it did take me a while. Like, I mean, I was working for a church and I will say still, that is the best job I've ever had. Because I was helping people. I was also entertaining people. And I was also doing music, which is my biggest passion, all roped into one. And it aligned with my paycheck, which is so hard to find. I feel like nowadays it's just like aligning your passion with your paycheck. But if you can do that, I mean, like, simplify it down, get the people in your corner who you know love you for you and ask them. I need a little reminder of what is my purpose in life, because it was never, I guarantee those people are never going to be like, well, I only thought you had purpose when you were in your religion. But now that you left that, you don't have, like, no, you're nobody to them. That's why you're in their life. So ask them. Like, and my friends, I know would just be like, well, you always, you know, know what to say to make me laugh. And it's like, okay, okay, I can brush that off like no big deal. But laughter for me is so healing. So I shouldn't brush that off. Right. Fine purpose and don't make it be like, you have to save everyone's life. Like Christianity is like, get people out of hell. Like, that's pretty heavy. We can dumb it down and simplify it a little bit. Why does she make them smile? You know what I mean? Make it smile that day for crying out loud. Compliment your, your barista, like in the drive in the drive through like stuff that I was actually told to do as a Christian that I did more, I will admit, as a Christian, but that I realized I was doing it for the wrong reasons. I was doing it because I'm like, I want to feel like a good Christian today. So I'm going to compliment my barista. Like, no, what is this? What if I'm the only Bible this person ever reads. I need to act just like I need to, you know, I mean, yeah, everything I did had a motive behind it. And it was all, you know, get this person saved. And even though I know my heart was right in doing that. I know. I know my motive was completely legit. Right. It's just very misled. Anyway, so yeah, purpose. I think we all have it. You don't have to be, you know, the mouthpiece of God to be to have a deep and lasting purpose. And honestly, if you're breathing, you have purpose. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. You can't write that one off just because of deconstructing. Right. Right. Okay. The next question. And we're going to go over an hour. Are you okay with that? Rachel? Yeah. Okay. We've got all the time in the world. I'm baby free to babysitter. All right. So how do you find community outside of church and where are your kids going to get married and where will you have funerals? Somebody literally asked me this. And I was like, well, I giggled first because I was like, wow. Oh, no, this, this is. Okay. I have very practical like, let me hear your, let me hear you exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, all right. Wedding funeral activities. Okay. Community. Let's start there. Rec League sports for adults. You're getting outside. You're having some fun. You're meeting new people. Like, and it's a commitment that's not too long. It's like usually every rec league of like softball or something is like three months long. And it's once a week, but it forces you to kind of get out of the house, which I feel like humans and nature need to have some type of connection at some point throughout the week. And, and then you're meeting new people and it's not too big of a commitment. If you have social anxiety, like get a friend to do it with you or something, but, but you're not committing to like a lifelong or even a year thing. Right. I did rec sports forever. So that's easy for me. But if that's not something that you like doing, then I'll have to come up with a different answer for that one. But yeah, there's other things. There's other things, but think of outside the box in those ways. Like, that is something that just for me helped, but maybe that will trigger somebody else to think, Oh, I have this thing that I would have never thought about. Or this one person from this job who I really loved who I wish I could reconnect with. And like, do something with them. And one person could give you five other friends. Like you come friends with them or deeper friendship, then you become friends with their friends and so on, whatever, but you got to get outside the box. And if you're an introvert, find an extrovert like me and Rachel. Yes. Yes. If you're an introvert, you've got to find your butt out. We'll get your butt outside swinging those bats. But it's like, think outside the box. It doesn't, it's not going to look the same way that it did in church. It's not going to always be. But like, because church gave you that guaranteed gathering every Sunday at a certain time, rec sports for me was super beneficial because it gave me a specific guaranteed gathering every single week. And it was short and fun. And, you know, church was short and fun. So it kind of like checked all the boxes. The wedding and the funeral thing is hilarious, but it's also super ironic that I just had this experience. I'm going to start with the funeral one, because I in the span of a year attended a Christian funeral of Mormon funeral and an atheist funeral. Wow. And it was my boyfriend and my grandma, then my uncle, and they were all like completely different experiences. And I will say that the atheist funeral was my favorite one by far. Because what we did, he was a skateboarder, and we went to like a skate park that had a, like an indoor building. It was a park that had a building that was kind of like a picnic table, stuff like that like it was like the size of a basketball court. Probably was this building. And we got everybody together and you pick certain people to do like music numbers that he would have loved and entertainment and then stories about him. The whole focus was more so on the celebration of his life and who he was as a person. And there wasn't anything that you were also trying to make it. So like I went to the. So it wasn't like a covert evangelistic. Right. It wasn't like my ex boyfriend's funeral, which was a Christian one, which was like, you want to see him again. You have to be a Jesus. My God, I kid you not that's what it was. It was really like they had a pastor who was his pastor when he was younger like fly in for it. And he was like one of the only ones that spoke. And, and they had some people like do a musical number and I'm thinking to myself, none of you even know him like he would have not wanted half of these people on the stage to sing the song for starters. And when it comes to this pastor that they brought in, his sermon was literally a sermon. It had nothing to do with the person who passed away and how amazing he was and how amazing his life was. And a celebration of that it literally felt like he was just proselytizing to the whole room and going, Oh, this is my chance. I'm sure he had friends who weren't Christians and they're in this building. So now it's our chance to sucker them in. And it was like, well, yeah, they don't mean to do it that way, but that's really what it is that I really think their heart is in the right place. They're like, I got them right where I need them. Because now they're faced with tragedy. That's like a Christian's like, it's like sugar and flies, you know how flies are drawn to sugar. Christians are drawn to people who are in in a suffering situation, because they know they're very vulnerable. And this is when they'll finally say yes to Jesus, you know, that's so weird. It was like, I mean, I was so traumatized in this moment. So honestly, it's a fog, but I do remember talking to like my my best friend who was there and my parents who were there and I was like, this was weird like at the end of it, they asked who wants to accept Jesus into their life and it's like no one's thinking about that right now really they're they're greeting their friend. And I thought it was really weird. But anyway, what I loved about and then my grandma's was kind of in between the Mormon funeral was like, we did have parts that were she would have just loved it and we did everything. She did die as a very devout Mormon. So she would have wanted the funeral to go down exactly the way that it did. So it's beautiful. I think one thing with funerals is you want to do and weddings. You it's about that person. It's not about you. It's about that person and what they would have wanted. Or your agenda. Yeah, yeah. So with my ex, his funeral was nothing like what he would have wanted. So that was just disturbing to me. Then you go to my grandma where it's like, I wasn't believe a believing Mormon when I attended this, but I knew she would have loved every single second of this service. So I'm like, okay, that's great. And then for my uncle, who wasn't religious at all, who was just like the best guy in the world. That was the most special experience for me because it was so catered to just this big reminder of who he was and you saw everyone else who had for him and the impact that he had and all the people in the room. So like, there are places that you can cheaply rent out that are in, you know, parks. I've never experienced a celebration of life at a park, like in a public place. It's always been in a church. So this was such a cool experience because it was spacious and you had what you needed to set everything up and get pictures of him everywhere and whatever you want to do. But there are other things like think about what that person would have wanted. Because that is really what it's all about when it comes to weddings and funerals. It's like everyone wants to make it about them, but it's just not. It's about the bride, the groom and the person who passed away. What do they want their day. And like, I think that'll ultimately give whoever's the grieving closure because it's like, yeah, I have more closure with my grandma's funeral and my uncle's then I do my ex boyfriends because I'm like, they would have loved that service. Yeah, that was great. Even though with my grandma's, you know, I wasn't a Mormon anymore. Well, it's funny because back when I was in evangelicalism, I remember thinking if I was ever knew that I was going to die. If I was ever in a situation, I would make a video and like big people to please ask she's into your heart so that I can see you again. Like, I really had planned it. I was going to be an evangelist, even in death, like that was going to be my life. And in the coffin. Right. And it's funny though, like not funny. Something that really woke me up. I guess it was in 2021. A very close friend of mine passed away and she had kind of gone through a deconstruction of sorts. I don't know if that's what she would have called it, but you know, she just. She was she was expanding her view of God. Let's just say. And she asked me to speak at her funeral. And I'm not a pastor and it wasn't at a church. You know, it was at a place that they rented when she passed away and, and the guy who played music used to lead worship but he had deconstructed. And it's like, she said, the reason I want you to speak is because I feel like you speak both languages. Like you understand people who are going through like the grief process and, and need for me to like share the gospel, you know, they, they're like, it's all about like we all want to see Donna again. So we got to do it this way, you know, she said, but you also know that what I'm trying to shoot, she was, she had so much peace when she died, like more peace than anybody I've ever seen in my life and she said to me, she was like, it's only about love. It's only about love. Like, I don't, I can't even tell you how many times. So like my speech was just all like Donna wants you to know this. Like, it's all about love. It's only love and her, you know, if we can remember anything from her, please remember this, you know, and it was just so beautiful and I think in that moment I realized funerals don't have to have a pastor they don't have to be at a church they don't have to be, you know, in a way it almost life giving to celebrate her outside of the thing, you know, that felt a little bit oppressive near the end. Do you know what I mean? Like it was just really nice. And so to me, it's not about having, you know, services in a church. I think it's like you were saying think outside of the box when it comes to having coping mechanisms. I think we need to also think outside of the box when it comes to celebrating a life or celebrating a union, you know, where would my kids want to get married. I'll tell you, they probably want to get married outside somewhere. And you know what, they probably want somebody they know close, maybe one of their siblings to officiate the wedding. Like it's, yeah, it doesn't have to be the way it used to be. And that feels scary at first. And I understand where that question came from. And where do you find community outside of a church? Well, I'll tell you right now. You can find it anywhere. Like people, you really can. I am a connector. Connection is my jam. So it doesn't matter where you drop me in the world. I'm going to make friends. I'm going to make community. I made it in my neighborhood. I go to a gym. I lead classes, outdoor classes here in my community. We do all the different things because I don't go to church anymore. I have time. I have time to hang out with people. Right. I was always at church before. And, and though I loved my church family and it was really great for, you know, that season of my life. Don't get me wrong. They were great. It's not where I want to be now. And that's okay. Like I have, I have finally stopped feeling guilty about that, but it took a long time. Like I would. And then I realized, I think I feel guilty because I feel bad for people that are still going. You know, like your entire Sunday is gone. You know, and like, I've been making lazy breakfast with my family. We usually, you know, do something together. I mean, it's just so life giving to have time to spend with the people that are in my life that I love. And so, yeah, there are all kinds of ways to find community if you're intentional. And if you struggle, it's like I said, and I'm not even kidding. I find somebody who is outgoing and just say, Hey, listen, I don't have the outgoing thing that you have. I would love for you to introduce me to say, you know, I'll just, I'll just sit here quietly, you know, whatever. But the thing is, once you get comfortable around people and once you start to see that not everybody's out to get you and not everybody's out to save you, you know, it's, it's very easy to just be yourself. I don't feel like you have to be something in order to be accepted. So, I don't know. I hope that answered that question. And thank you for these questions, by the way. And if you ever have questions, Rachel and I will do these periodically because I just think, I don't know, it's, it's important that we talk about it. And this is what people want to know. And I want the podcast not only to be encouraging but also informative and to help people understand, you know, just because we're deconstructing or deconstructed or because we think different, it doesn't mean that we're not still human beings. Oh no you need people in your life. Listen, like if any, if this does anything, then if listening to these episodes does anything, hopefully at minimum, gets you to think outside the box like I need other people to riff off of when I'm like struggling, especially when I'm struggling, even when I'm when I'm not struggling, but when I am struggling, I would have not thought to even like do the rec sports thing which did help me find more community. I mean I'm struggling right now because I just moved to a different state in the last year and I have no friends here so it's like okay how do you find a community if I had church, I would have already had a community right now. Oh right. Yeah, built in, and it had a lot of letters. Right, right. Yeah, the meal trains. So I'm already like okay I need to take my own advice like I need to find if rec sports is what it is then I need to find that here. And I need to my boyfriend's cousin invited me to a grief group, because it was my ex's death anniversary two days ago and she invited me to this group group and if my baby had an event a giant menace that night. Then I would have gone, but yeah, but like you know it's just committing to certain things getting out of your comfort zone getting but like listen to the podcast like this just to get your brain thinking in a different way get those perspectives. So important. And you know what I didn't even mention this but this is a great way to find community is online. I mean, I have a religious rehab group coming up in the fall, if you're interested in being a part of that and that is people who are going through this construction who, you know, just need to talk through some stuff where I'm in the middle of a while we have one more meeting, the religious rehab for the summer, and I'm not even kidding. The love I have for these people, I can't even stand it like I literally had a headache and couldn't do the meeting one week and I was so sad, like I don't know what made me more sad that I couldn't meet with them or that I had this horrible headache. And so, you know, I took my medicine went to bed and, but then I woke up and I was like, man, I've got a way to hold another week to meet with the, you know, you can really get some great connection online and if you want to be with the fall group of religious rehab. All you have to do is send me an email Leslie niece at gmail.com and just say, hey, I want to be on the waitlist for the fall session religious rehab and you'll meet people that way, you know, and they'll probably continue being friends. I mean, of course they will, like, even after the actual, it's like a group coaching experience once that's over. You know, there's still a connection. These are people that have been through hell and they're like, they're for each other. It's, it's really, really great. So that's a good option for the introverts. It's a great option online. It's not as intimidating. You don't have to go anywhere. You don't have to speak. If you don't want to. If it's a zoom, you don't even have to put your camera on, but feel it out. And then, you know, find the people within those groups that you feel like, okay, I could vibe with them and reach out to them individually and start there. But you got to start somewhere. And it is hard. That's not me trying to say, it's easy. Figure it out. No, it's so hard. I'm still struggling with it. And I'm three years out. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, um, okay. Well, we have time for one more question, I think. Don't you think one more? Yeah. All right, let's go. I had someone ask this question, which I thought was kind of rude, but that's okay. Talking about my Facebook account, they said, why is your account mostly about your deconstruction now? I feel like you've changed a lot. Okay, I get it. You're like, wait a minute. Why are you just talking about? And I'm not. It just seems like that because you're sensitive to it. Number one. Um, it is funny, though, I will tell you the contrast on my Facebook page now. Um, if I post anything that doesn't have anything to do with deconstruction, like a picture of my, my backyard or my dogs or my family, anything, like hundreds of likes. If I post anything about deconstruction, hardly any. I feel like the way that people are telling me we don't like what you're doing is by not liking. It's like they see it. They go, I am not going to like that. You know, and I'm fine. It's fine, but it's just so funny because I'm like, Oh, you are still there. Oh, okay, there you are. Yeah, I just had to post something besides that, you know. So if it seems like that's all I'm posting, it's because, um, I mean, it's what I'm going through right now. If it bugs you, you don't have to follow me. I get it. You know, I, you can block me. I don't care. It won't bother me at all. People love to trigger themselves though. Yeah. I mean, being an online presence, they love to put their comments in there. I'm like, you realize that you commenting on my stuff is just going to feed your algorithm more of my stuff. Yes. Sorry. Yeah. So I feel like the reason it may seem that way is, yeah, of course I do talk about what I do because it's my podcast. I'm writing a book. There's, this is, I'm starting to be more vocal about where I'm at. And I feel like I'm just trying to be true to myself. And, and in a way, this is going to sound bad. I talked about this with Kelly Strickland, you know, on the podcast. If you heard that episode, you know, when people get a tattoo. And sometimes they get in a place where everybody can see it so that they weed out the people in their life, who are going to judge them for it. Right. Because they realize quickly, they're like, oh, they're not going to talk to me. Okay, cool. I don't have to deal with them. You know what I mean? I almost feel like if you don't like what I'm writing and it makes you uncomfortable. And, you know, then, then maybe, maybe our time as friends, it's okay. It's okay to move forward. It's not going to hurt my feelings. And I feel like everybody's like afraid. I have one lady say, everything you do makes me want to throw up. But I just can't, I can't, I can't find it in me to not follow you because I love you. And I'm like, okay, that's contradictory for one thing. And for another thing, I said, you know what, I'm going to go ahead and block myself so that you don't have to see my stuff because I don't want to bring this out in you. I'm not trying to do that. You know, I'm trying to show love. I'm trying to open hearts, not close them or make them scared, even more scared than they already are. So, yeah, I said, I'm going to block myself, but really I had to block her, but I didn't do it to block. I love her. I don't want to block her, but clearly I was making her feel uncomfortable. And if that's how you feel when you see my stuff, you can unfollow me and we can even still be friends. It won't hurt my feelings. So, that's right. Yeah. Yeah, that's hilarious. That's, I mean, I had to go through that whole, a whole purge phase of I even made myself a new Facebook because I'm like, it's going to take me way too long to go through all these people that I've had as friends. So I don't even know like Facebook friends, just to delete the people from my old church who I don't even want to have to deal with them reaching out to me like I am too traumatized at that time to deal with it. So I just made a new Facebook and then on Instagram, I just, you know, I blocked the people that I'm sure we're talking shit about me. And I was like, yeah, I'm just, I don't need to deal with that. And what's funny is some of them who I didn't block, but I had, I kind of forced them to unfollow me like I unclicked them as a follower or something, have tried to follow me back multiple times. And I'm like, you ditched me as a friend. You completely like threw me to the wolves what I was dealing with my biggest trauma ever. And then when you claim to be so Christ like, I don't know why you would want to follow me. But now it's laughable. I'm just like, okay, nope, goodbye and delete again and oh you're back. Oh, here delete again. A lot of times trigger themselves. I think some people and I really, there are some people I'm like, I cannot believe they haven't like blocked me on, you know, like that they're still my friend. Yeah. I'm like, why are you still here? And I'm like, oh, you're probably trying to keep tabs on me. You're probably trying to what, or maybe they think one day she'll come back to Jesus and I want to be there when it happened, you know, not that I've left Jesus, but they think I have because I don't believe in hell and, you know, there are certain things that I don't believe in anymore. And I don't go to church. So I guess I'm a heathen in their eyes but, but maybe one day, maybe one day I'll come around so they want to be there when that happens but, or they just want to have, you know, a fresh perspective for the next prayer meeting. You know, this is how we get on Leslie this week, which is fine. Well, the sad part is we know that that's happening because we were in those. When someone else would leave or have a riff with a pastor and you wouldn't see them again like you want to keep tabs on them a little bit if you had information, because then it's like, you've got the tea. But yeah, there are definitely people who, who I continue to block because I know that they're just wanting to relay information about me to everyone else that I used to be with. And for whatever reason, am I pessimistic side is like, well, they want to continue to believe that kicking me out of the church was the right move so as long as I'm still not for Jesus, then they're doing the right, they did the right thing. Yeah, they can sleep at night. So, don't be a troll, basically, don't be a troll. And if you, and I'm not going to block people unless I feel like I'm making them, you know, unless I can tell that I'm making them uncomfortable. But I would never, I don't, I've never since this happened blocked somebody because I didn't love them. No, because I hated them. You know, it's just people who get upset and, and like, just can't let it go. Like, this isn't, this isn't good for your soul. And I don't want to be a part of that. I don't want to be a part of making you feel this way. So, you know, you don't have to follow me. It's good. I know I feel so guilty sometimes because it's people like my grandma, who's so sweet, who's still a Mormon, who loved when I was also a Christian like when I left Mormonism and became a Christian. I love having conversations with me about Jesus and we lived together for about a year, like just recently, a few years ago, and it was she, I'd come home from churches who's so excited to like talk to me about Jesus, even though it wasn't the same religion as her. But I went through a phase when I was deconstructing Christianity where I was kind of poking at the Mormons again and bringing up like, they got exposed for money laundering and blah blah blah and like Mormons, why don't you see this? And I know my grandma would see it and I feel bad because it's like, I don't want to hurt her, but also, but also, they're hurting children and so many people. Yeah, and all the pastors lately that have fallen publicly from like, and it's always like an affair. Or, I mean, one guy next trafficking children. I, who, yeah, there's nothing more than that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, I get it. I get it. I mean, there's, there's a whole chapter about, I call it the boys club about my time in ministry and how difficult it was being a woman in a male dominated patriarchal misogynistic, you know, world, it's very difficult. But you know what, it's funny. I think when you're in it, you feel like it's all you. It's your problem. You're the issue. And as long as you're willing to take the blame, they're willing to let you. Oh, yeah, they are never to blame. I don't think I ever once heard my lead pastors apologize for anything. My assistant pastors, because they were still so enslaved by the lead pastors would take the fall for stuff or me and my work partner who was my like worship pastor partner. Me and him would take the fall for every single thing that happened to anybody on our team because that was like, we were like, I don't know. It was a self righteous thing as to why we were doing that. But never once did I hear my lead pastors apologize for a single thing, even when they would kick out their own brother, who was in his time of need like, it was always his fault. It was always my fault. It was always the and now I look back at someone. There's a specific person who I will probably reach out to at some point who was on the team when I was one of the leaders. And she was really struggling with certain things and I was so convinced that her heart posture was just not in the right place because the pastors were telling me that and then I was getting. And you believe that I believed it and I was getting annoyed with this woman. So I basically had to have a conversation that was essentially stepping her down from the worship team. And I look back at that and I'm just like, she was just in a lot of pain and like wanting to ask questions and because she went about it just a way that rubbed my pastor's wrong. I probably destroyed her in a certain way like I mean I don't want to give myself that much credit but like I know I probably really really made a negative impact on her life and, and like, I still look back and don't agree with some of the things that she was saying. But I understand way better in hindsight now like where the pain was probably coming from. And she never, her and her family never attended the church again after that and she had like multiple kids who were in youth. And I'm just like, oh, it eats me alive like sometimes when I think about it too much because I'm just like, Oh, how many times did I do that? Yeah. Yeah, why didn't I challenge the pastor like in that moment or something. It's a lot. It's a lot, guys. And you welcome people who disagree with you on if you're public about your deconstruction if you're more like Leslie and I who are more outgoing and vocal about our experiences in life. And you end up doing that, you are inviting a very unique group of people into your life and like, just the trolls. I don't, I don't understand why they do that to themselves and comment and try to engage if it's so triggering for them. But you're still going to get those people and like, the best thing you can do is just re remind yourself of why you're doing it like I had to say, I am a warrior for people. You might think that I am just the devil's assistant and trying to like deconstruct everybody's faith and send them all the hell, but what I'm really doing is being a fighter for truth and a fighter for people. And I will not be apologetic about that now that I said the same thing as a Christian, but now I say that in a different way of like I won't be apologetic but I'm also aware that like if I'm ever wrong about anything now. I'm the first to like, own up to that, whereas before I couldn't be wrong, it was impossible. Yeah, it was because it was biblical, you know, yeah it was biblical and my pastor said that it was true. And they know everything. Yeah. What a great conversation this has been so good. I am. I'm going to have you back. I'm sorry. It's just the way it's got to be so. That's my favorite thing I feel like I feel like we gave people like hopefully we gave people enough out of the box ideas to kind of roll with I feel like the end of that show out of the box I feel like that needs to be the outro song to this episode is just. Yeah. The box. Yeah. What was that from? My kids must have watched it when it was literally called out of the box and it was a kid show yeah when I was like a baby. But yeah, just think outside the box guys because it's you do not have to we're so conditioned especially as Americans to just do things just because it's always been the way. But like you don't have to do that. You don't have to have a flower girl walk down the aisle at your wedding you can have your brother bring a tray of tequila shots and give them to people you know like that's like to me that is so much more my vibe and so funny and like fun. I would much rather do that then that's a very great idea. So I just saw that on our Instagram reel that was not my original idea but I'm going to use it. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. I love it. Oh, well thank you for hanging out with us today thanks for letting me share my new baby. It's funny it took me nine months to write. Oh, I feel like I'm giving birth again. Thanks for letting me share that it should be out by the end of the year that's what choir is saying so. And thanks for listening to honoring the journey this week and for, you know, honoring the journeys of my choir siblings I guess you could say the one yesterday Rachel I don't know if you heard it but it was about this woman whose grandmother passed away. She was like was talking to her through like technology after she like this one stretched me more than any journey that I've honored so far. But this girl she was so great and so sweet and so lovely and you know the whole time I'm like. Okay. All right Leslie just please don't. Yeah, I was I had to fight evangelical Leslie like I had to wrestle her down and say shut up just shut up because it is a perspective and I'm here to honor that journey and I'm here to show her love. And, and hear what she has to say and everything that she said. Did it make sense to me not really but did it. But could it be true. Sure. Why not. You know what I mean. Yeah, really powerful. It was something. Don't write it off. You know if it's something that's not hurting anybody then don't. I was the bottom line. The thing I asked her at the end of the episode I said okay so you know how has this helped you. You know in talking to your grandma and how do you feel about death now. And it was all good like peace joy. I feel calm I'm not scared at all like it didn't it didn't increase fear it suppressed it it didn't you know it didn't make her feel scared it made her feel loved. You know it's something like okay well then by all means let's let's go let's talk about it so. But it stretched me it was fun it was fun I was like look at this. Like Leslie 10 years ago would have been like oh my gosh this is all from Satan. You know. I know I would have been terrified. I would have been scared. That doesn't really add up with my beliefs that they have to like so. Yeah exactly. So anyway if you didn't hear it you need to go listen. So good. Anyway well thanks guys for hanging out with us Rachel you're the best we'll have you back soon. And you're the best can't wait to hear the book in full. Yeah me too I can't wait till it's done. And then I don't have to feel like I'm gonna throw up anymore. Yeah it's gonna be great. And then I'll just have a vulnerability hangover after all that happens. Yep worth it worth it though. Totally worth it. It will range it's gonna be epic. Oh thank you you're so sweet. Alright guys have a great day and we will see you next time right here on Honoring the Journey. American's love using their credit cards. The most secure and hassle free way to pay. But DC politicians want to change that with the Durban Marshall credit card bill. This bill lets corporate megastores pick how your credit card is processed. Allowing them to use untested payment networks that jeopardize your data security and rewards. Corporate megastores will make more money and you pay the price. Tell Congress to guard your card because Americans lose when politicians choose. Learn more at guardyourcard.com
