This Crowdcast podcast is brought to you by the book "Sitting in the Shade of Another Tree." For too long, people of faith have focused more on pointing out where other religions get it wrong. But what have we decided to focus more on all the ways those other religions get it right? This path might end up leading us into deeper understanding, connection, friendship, and peace. Sitting in the shade of another tree from choir publishing and pathios, available now on Amazon. [Music] Welcome to Choir Week on Honoring the Journey. So glad you're here and this is going to be such a great week. Today, we actually have Matthew Desafano, who is one of the co-owners of choir publishing. And we get to hear his amazing journey before I bring him in. Now, I just want to remind you that if you're interested in getting some community while you go through deconstruction, I do have a sort of a group coaching experience coming up this fall. Right now, I'm in the middle of the summer session of Religious Rehab. But it is coming up again in the fall. And if you'd like to be a part of it, I would love to have you join us. Just give me an email, LesleyNiece@gmail.com. Let me know that you're interested in being on the waitlist for the fall session of Religious Rehab. And you can find out more about what I do as a coach at LesleyNieceCoaching.com. And also, if you want to come hang out at Theology Beer Camp in October, I would love to see you there. You can save $50 off the registration fee by using my code "Journey2024". And all of that is going to be in the show notes. Alright, let's get started with Choir Week right here on Honoring the Journey. First up, Matthew Desafano. Welcome back to Honoring the Journey. I'm LesleyNiece, your host, and I'm here today with a friend of mine named Matthew Desafano. He is actually one of the co-owners of choir publishing, and they are the people who are believing in me enough to publish my book, which is kind of cool. But you know the thing about choir that I love, because I think Matthew is just super creative. Not only is he a writer, he's written award-winning books. He's actually just came out with a brand new book that I can't wait to talk about. But not only is he that, but he's super creative, like multimedia. He's trying to make choir kind of like the tree, and there's all these branches coming off of it. You'll see things like multimedia, a blog network, podcast network. I can't wait for you to hear his journey, Matthew. Welcome to Honoring the Journey. Thanks. Keep gushing. That's cool. I love it. Okay. All right. He's got really cool hair. No, shut up. Shut up. You really do. Thank you for having me. Yes, thank you. Wow. That's the Mediterranean in me. It must be. Is that what it is? I wondered what you were. I wonder what his nationality is. A lot of people wonder. I'm going to keep them wondering. People are like... You're going to keep them wondering. Yeah. I'm kind of a mutt myself. One time I was like an event, and they were like, oh, it's so cool that there's so many different kind of people, unique people. And he was like, ah, there's a black, you know, black family there, and there's, you know, some Latinos down there and blah, blah, blah, blah. And he got to me and he was like, and whatever matters. I was like... I think it was a compliment. I hope so anyway. Now I'm going to ask a random question. Like, I didn't prepare Matthew. And I'm going to do this just kind of just to get to know you and who you are and your personality. So the question I'm going to ask you, Matthew, is what is the most embarrassing song that you have in your playlists? That was a good one. I like that question a lot. Where's my phone? I got a feeling that you would like this one. I love it. That's a good one. Okay. So the problem with this is that my daughter shares these likes here. There's a lot of... I would have to say, I mean, there's a Taylor Swift song that features Kendrick Lamar. So I have to put the caveat in there, but I really do kind of like Taylor Swift. So I would listen to the song even if it didn't feature Kendrick. Oh, you're such a cute dad. I love that. I would totally be at a Taylor Swift concert with my daughter. Would you really? My daughter went to it last year. She said it was the best concert. And she wasn't even a Swiftie. Well, she hasn't been to Beyonce concert, but yeah. Well, and my other daughter is obsessed with Beyonce. And so when you were talking the other day about Beyonce's new album and you were like gushing, I was like, this is the guy I'm working with at choir. And she was like, he's cool. I love him. Yeah, she's obsessed with Beyonce. So anyway, so what kind of music do you normally listen to then? Well, it's hard, like on the day to day, it's probably a lot more hip hop than anything. Yeah, but I am one of those people who I will listen. Like I'll listen to Kendrick Lamar and then I'll play Stardew Valley and listen to like a 32 bit indie video game music soundtrack. Like, and then I'll listen to Howard Shore who wrote the score for, you know, the Lord of the Rings films. Oh, so very eclectic, I see. But yeah, when I'm just driving and stuff. Yeah, generally I'll be listening to hip hop. I did kind of wonder if you listened to the Lord of the Rings soundtrack. Matthew, if you know Matthew, he loves his Tolkien. He loves his Lord of the Rings. He loves all that fun fantasy kind of, you know, deep, like means a lot more than it says kind of stuff. And that's even what you've kind of written your books about. I think like the wisdom of the hobbits, unearthing our humanity and then mimetic theory and Middle Earth, which I haven't had a chance to read yet, but I'm excited to learn a little more about it and get it in my library. So that's pretty good. Tell me a little bit about that. Like, why do you love these guys? Well, for being six foot forward is odd that I'm in love with, you know, a race of fictional characters who are like no taller than three feet. Yeah. I think it's also odd that I'm like, I'll listen to Kendrick Lamar and run the jewels and kill her Mike and, you know, and then go be a nerd about Lord of the Rings. So I'm probably definitely the most hip hop, hobbit out there. So don't put Matthew in a box. Don't do it because he's not going to fit. Maybe in the corner. Yeah, it's hard to why do we like the things, why are we gravitated to the things we're gravitated to, why do I have a love for gardening and to the point where now I'm going to start a farming business like. I have, I don't know, I don't know how to, I don't know how to answer that like. It's a great question. But sometimes it's making you think a little deep. It's making my thing a little. Yeah, like where do you are. Where do these passions come. Did you read a lot as a kid. Did you have a parent who did. Did you watch the movie at an impressionable age. Like, what got this going. I know Matthew. Well, I got to know too now. I mean, I read the Hobbit in seventh, no, in eighth grade, I read the Hobbit in eighth grade. I read and I enjoyed books. I really liked. All quiet on the Western front catch 22. I liked where the red fern grows. I liked. Animal farm was really good and impactful, but, but I read as much as anyone else and, you know, I was in honors English and whatever, like, but it wasn't. Yeah, it wasn't like a passion and I don't have like my. I don't have my like origin story with Tolkien. I mean, obviously was reading the Hobbit in eighth grade, but it didn't like sit with me where I became like a nerd that day. I was like, oh, I got to dive in deeper. I didn't read the Lord rings so much later. And it's like, it's like a, it was like a slippery slope into being a total out and out hobbit in all but size. So I don't really have that like romantic. No, you don't need one. No, I know, I know it's cool. Yeah, yeah. People have that like first date where I remember. I remember the very first time I read this and I remember the very, I don't really have that. But do you, I've been lured by the call of the ring, I guess. Yes. Well, you know, I love that. That's perfect. So do you think it has anything to do like, did you realize when you were reading these books in middle school? Did you realize how deep they were? That is something that maybe happened in your faith walk and then maybe that's why, you know, because to me, it was just a movie and a book until I became a Christian. And then I was like, whoa, this is like, and then I saw, you know, a spiritual analogy and everything. So thanks token. I, you know, I can see a spiritual analogy and Superman and all the other like even silly like dumb and dumber like I can see a spiritual analogy everywhere because of that. So I don't know that you think that has anything to do with it. I think actually mine would be like the opposite, not the opposite, but kind of mine was after after I deconstructed my Christian and I no longer think of myself as a Christian. So now that I don't have that lens and filter to have to look through and I don't have to go searching for those things. Now I can see them for what they are. I can see them like, like I always compare like the line to which in the wardrobe and that kind of allegory type of storytelling versus like the Lord of the Rings, which I think are just kind of like archetypal universal truths. And so when I'm not going searching for like making things fit into a Christian narrative or whatever, then I see the spiritual truths a lot more, but I see them in that I see them in the flowers and the trees and. And that maybe that's why I like Tolkien so much like I don't, I don't like to have to be rushed into anything particular. Maybe that's why I like gardening like I love I love planting trees I love planting something that in five years I'll get some fruit from. Oh wow, that's unusual most people are not that patient I'm definitely not right. And in Tolkien's prose, he might, he might make you read four pages before you get around the bend in the road, you know what I mean like go on and the way yeah and he described that with such detail like you feel like you're smelling and actually experiencing that moment. Yeah, no I agree that's good. So tell me about you mentioned that you deconstructed your Christianity you no longer Christian. Can you maybe explain a little bit where did that happen. What happened. It was kind of like the slippery slope except instead of slipping into slipping into something enjoyable like Tolkien it was like slipping, like things were slipping away from me unraveling. Put them up to the test of like vigorous questions and questioning, and the questions were there from like childhood but they weren't very complex. They were complex for a child like about, I was thinking about hell and all those kind of things because that's where I was told people are going and I didn't live in a like predominantly Christian family, even though we were Christian but like my grandparents were like marginally Catholic like all Italian and Portuguese people. Yeah. I say that as your hair. So, but but in the evangelical model like hey those people don't make it. You're not born again Christian so unless you're this right right so I had those problems that I, you know, tucked away under the rug for a lot of years. But when you grow up and become an adult and you know you start to think about things and I don't mean adult like necessarily your age I just mean you start thinking like an adult like you have to, you have to really test your faith and I don't mean like test it like like a lot of Christians do I mean like you better get down to the tough stuff like really get to the hard questions that you don't really feel comfortable asking about God. To the point where you better ask about God's very existence you better ask the tough questions like why not like you. When you do that welcomes that I really do I think exactly where the one fortunately the church doesn't but yeah God definitely does I think that's when my journey really really began. Well I believe that now yeah and that's what I mean by being an adult is we start to learn to ask those questions. And when we do we have to, we have to put aside the childish things we once believed no matter how important they are to us if they if they don't stand up to scrutiny. They don't stand up to our direct experiences. So what do they like they stand up to a certain rigid reading of the Bible. Can I ask a question though because I can guarantee you if there's somebody listening who's still evangelical their argument to this would be. And I just know because I can still I speak both languages still bilingual. And I don't say to offend anyone. Oh no I know I but I want I want you to address this because I think it's important. What about where it says come to Christ as a child like those you know you can only enter the heaven when you come as a child like what about. How do you say you know because that's what they would say would they would say well you're not supposed to be an adult you have to say a child or you know what I mean. But then Paul ups the ante and says well you know you got to put away those childish things and you got to start maturing and eating some steak you know. You got to eat some food. So I found that a lot of a lot of seemingly contradictory things are true in the universe and I think we have to get to the point where we where we can consider two things to be true at the same time. And there's not a lot of there's there's mutually exclusive things but not as many things that are mutually exclusive so you can have child like wonder and not be childish. You can have you can have a because children will have a natural inquisitiveness and a curiosity. So that doesn't mean we should ask childish questions when we become an adult. We can continue to have the child like wonder and ask adult questions. So that's curious, which I think a lot of times in religion we we shut that down. We're like I can't be curious because I don't want anybody to challenge what I believe. And I don't want to hear anybody's ideas if they're different than mine because they're wrong and they're stupid. And I'm wondering I've talked to people who say, you know, I do want my kids to come up to the, you know, to make their own mind up. And then but but I always say but then conclude like you right like if you're in the evangelical church like you don't really want them to conclude like atheism if you believe in hell for instance like you definitely want them to conclude like you. If there's a hell if there's like an eternal hell let's say as an example. You can make the argument that I don't want people thinking for themselves if that's the high risk game we're playing like. Oh yeah, good right like it seems like there's an argument to be made that we need to actually brainwash people so that they do pick the right because your eternal souls. We don't understand eternality. It's like trying to understand the size of the universe. I'm playing devil's advocate I don't think we know I love this. No, I love what you're saying and I think you're right and I don't think we realized though like when I was in evangelical Christianity and I was crying every night because my kids didn't or one of my children specifically didn't believe exactly the way I did and I was afraid he was going to go to hell and there was this just constant anxiety and fear of losing him you know and to the point where I would cry every time he would come around and he told me one time he's like mom I'm just not coming home anymore because I'm breaking your heart and I don't I don't want to do that to you and so I was like what am I supposed to do you know and I just started treating him as if he was already where I believed he needed to be realized in that process that he was where I needed to be like he was already in a place of peace with the fact that he didn't have the answers. And and he's you know he loves God he tried to live like Jesus probably more than anybody I've ever known but he just didn't buy into the whole dogma doctrine of the evangelical Bible Belt Christian church that we were in you know and I was so afraid for him and now I just don't have that fear so to me that was very freeing do you have any experience with that did you when you let go of that fear of hell or were you ever afraid because it sounds like you were questioning it from the beginning I was afraid yeah I had nightmares I had I had all sorts of fear and anxiety growing up yeah yeah that was the first like I really had to answer that question when I started deconstructing a universalist of sorts like I still have I have a universal more pluralistic universalism probably yeah but if Jesus is involved great I still love the teachings of Jesus I mean that was like the first thing that had to go because like how can we live a life oriented to and being aware of what's in front of us if we're just soaked in fear everything is a fear fear fear and we still hear it from the pulpit we hear it from a lot of like right wing news sources everything is afraid be afraid be afraid and it's like hell when I go a wrathful God when I go all that it was like it just became a life where it's like what do I want to do with my life and without like I don't have to fear some big bad God in the sky everything to them just yeah well I read a quote the other day tell me what you think about this I thought it was so good I don't even know who this woman is Mindy Gladhill do you know who she has never heard of her not on Twitter she said perhaps the grandest theft is when an institution takes something that already belongs to you your soul makes you think it's not yours then sells it back to you for a price oh yeah that's a playoff and Alan Watts quote where like the greatest theft is stealing a man's watch and selling or fundamentalism is steering stealing of hands watch and selling it back to him I'm thinking that you offered some truth, yeah that's that's so much of people's church experience and that's not to discredit a lot of church I mean right yeah but there's just so much of it that is so damaging that I mean it's obvious how much they're afraid like the people who rail against deconstruction on their YouTube channels and stuff it's like hmm you know if you weren't so afraid you wouldn't really care too much right but at the end of the at the end of the the rainbow is not a pot of gold it's like burning in hell forever so the rainbow is not a pot of gold it's like burning in hell forever so yeah it's obvious you're afraid I've been there I get it to an extent but same yeah no I definitely have been there and I remember praying for my kids to be miserable like I would pray that my kids were miserable because I felt like if they were miserable here on earth that meant they were looking for something more and they would find God and he would make them happy and then then they would go to heaven because it was all about the next life it wasn't about this one this one was just kind of we were just passing through you know like who cares you know this is just the world whatever it's we're not even supposed to love this world you just wait till you get to heaven and to me now in deconstruction I can look at that and say alright so that's the case it's like God gave us this amazing gift of life and we're like no thanks but thanks for the next gift you're going to give me you know it's like come on like can we not just live for right like what is that so wrong to enjoy the gift that he's given us that's been revolutionary for me yeah the only life we have is right in front of us and whatever comes after we'll work itself out if God is good then yeah we should be fine we should be fine yes exactly yeah and that's it's a hard one but yeah so you started to deconstruct how probably first it sounds like well I think hell alongside well alongside the Bible the an erancy of the Bible went pretty quick but I didn't even know I was in something called deconstruction this is yeah I don't think people do though you know this is before the term became something other than you know from Jacques Derrida meaning something something slightly different but yeah the big one that I was questioning was hell and then I would put it to Bible studies and pastors and I quickly learned how not curious the church is and how very dogmatic they are when you really step on toes and then being my personality I'm like alright let's spar and then it just has to escalate from there and I decided to go right but I was like alright y'all want to do this I guess alright a bunch of books about this and start blogging and go right for pathos and see yeah you know and I yeah I'll show you and I think that a lot of times I mean I actually went through a phase like that for sure like you know the anger phase of grief you know there is a grief process that you go through ind deconstruction for sure I mean you're losing your identity you're losing your community you're losing the thing that I don't know if you've read Untethered Soul by Michael Singer so good but there's I think it's chapter 14 he talks about how we hold on to our beliefs you know for dear life because whatever it is it makes us feel grounded it makes us feel safe it helps us make sense of the world and so when somebody comes along and they challenge that by saying that they believe something different it's as if they're tugging on us to get us off of our belief and then we get angry and we get frustrated and so I feel like you know going through that I had to tell myself just let go for a second you can always grab it again you can always grab it again like you don't have to just let go and see what people are saying listen research do the work and see what happens and in doing so I realized that the freedom isn't found in clinging to something specific but into embracing the mystery of not knowing like it's like it's okay we don't have to have the answers we just have to love we just have to be in this moment you know and appreciative of it yeah we find this the true spiritual nuggets when we have our palms open with the yes with the thing in our open hands not clinging to something yes yes it takes letting go of that thing to realize it is terrifying at first it is hard and then you once you let go it's not like you immediately have this freedom that's where the grief process comes in like I just let go of something that defined me that that gave me a solid foundation and now I'm kind of free falling and until you kind of get your bearings and start to realize you're not really free falling you're just kind of experiencing life in a different way it can be really scary so right yeah I am more of at this point I don't know Matthew maybe I'm crazy but I feel like I need to in some way be a bridge to help people who are still deep in religion and evangelicalism or whatever understand why people do this because I think they're only listening to people in their camp who are you know fear mongering and stuff yeah I think yeah I think so many people are in a bubble they don't even realize it's a bubble because it's like is it a scene from finding Nemo where it's like the fish in the fish tank thinks that they're in the ocean or something yes like if you swim just a little bit further you're going to run into some glass and all these people live in this bubble and they don't even know that they're in a bubble wow that's a really good point yeah and I feel like I know that the problem is most people aren't even going to listen to my podcast who are still in that camp you know what I mean you got to go pop their bubble I know I'm not sure how though like I'm trying that's but a big ass with a big ass needle I don't know I don't know it's so scary when your bubble is popped you know and it's no I know I'm just playing but it's harder I don't want to burn those bridges I'm trying to build them and so I don't know if I'm delusional I can't let go of it I work with a coach and I was like okay so she's like are you trying to reach people who are deconstructing or are you trying to help the people from your past faith tradition you know and I'm like I don't know I think I'm trying to do both she's like I don't know if you can do that I don't know if you can do both and from what I understand about like the wisdom of it would say that the you know the student will find the teacher and that seems to be true and so people already have to be willing to look into something you're not going to drag them out of the bubble they have to they have to Tim from the new evangelicals uses the analogy of a basement I believe yes you can't drag their ass up out of the basement if they come out of the basement you're there for right I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out how to do you know how to do I don't want to be cynical I don't want to be angry I'm I'm kind of all past that I think I went through that for sure but like yeah I am trying so hard to keep this soft heart and I don't know if there are days where I wake up I'm like I think it's gone I think I'm mad today but is that something I mean I guess you you've just admitted that you do but like how do you handle that I think a tough skin is two things can be true at the same time tough skin and a soft heart so what's sad is that I realized this for a while ago because people would ask me why you so this way so that because I can be pretty abrasive I'm like if you want like a nice bourbon after dinner for dessert some people don't like that they need something sweeter and I'm like now give me a bourbon and a cigarette be honest with you I'm with a kind of soft hearted people still get shit on like they get like they get Adam Erickson comes to mind he's like the sweetest nicest kindest most sincere pastor at a UCC up in Clackamas I believe it's outside of Portland he's famous for all the signs he puts the signs up and they go viral and he's taken so much rap and grief from people so it's it's not just the people who are salty like me so whether you got a soft heart or not you still gotta get you gotta you gotta be like alright for me personally the people that I have found are most willing to learn they've already have a they already have softened there they've let go of their poll or whatever they're clinging on to yeah yeah and but you can't grab you can't drag anyone off of that yeah I don't know that I even want to like people in a MAGA thing you can't what are you gonna talk about that stuff it's like they have to already beat you know what I mean well in their belief I'm realizing because I have a lot of family members who are very MAGA very you know evangelical very strong in their and so I just don't talk about this with them because to be honest what they're believing even though I believe it's harmful and my whole thing is I don't care what you believe just don't do harm but like their beliefs are doing harm but if I come at them about that and try to change them when they're not you can't take somebody someplace they're not ready to go if I do that then I'm harming them like because they're literally in a place right now where they can't let go like they don't know how they're terrified to let go because they're convinced that what they believe is right and so I think what I'm trying to figure out is how to instead of having people be angry and afraid of people who believe different just listen to them just shut your mouth and listen you know and hear their stories because they're not scary they just believe different I don't know why that freaks us out so much you know I mean well I think you're doing a great job with this podcast is just bringing people on and if you know we're getting someone that listens to a different thing like you know I mean like so again I think the person who listens to the person who honors someone's journey has already honored enough of their own to go on one and people who like stay in that same camp in that same mindset have never gone on a journey themselves they haven't even honored their own journey like they're not going to honor someone else's that's true you know so and I still struggle with like I struggle with my family too because a lot of them went MAGA they're not they're not LGBTQ affirming and I'm bisexual so I'm like how do I hey how do I have a relationship with these people and B do I want to I'm 41 years old like I got a 13 year old daughter I got a wife I got two businesses do I have time do I even have the band with to have a relationship with people who can't even like celebrate anything other than hetero do you know how boring that is like have you no soul have you know you know I mean like I just do it's so alienating it's so I mean like it just puts you us versus them again you know like I don't know to me I'm at the point where in my in my walk whatever faith walk I'm just like if it if it instills fear if it instills division I'm just not going to go there I'm just not going to do it because I don't feel like I have the time or the energy anymore and I it is there is something about aging I will tell you Matthew because I'm 55 now and I can tell you everything changes when you get older and you start going okay that's really not that important yeah matter perspective right yeah yeah you're just like yeah I'm not gonna I'm not gonna do that I don't think I'm tired of living my life feeling like I'm better than somebody or that I'm I have all the answer you know I think that was kind of what I mean I hate to say it and I remember people saying Christians are people who go around saying I know something you don't know and I was like no we don't we don't do that but we do you know what I mean like it when you really sit back and think about it and look into it you realize that's exactly what we do and maybe that's why so many of them fall for conspiracy theories it's almost like you get that insider knowledge now you got some secret knowledge that no one else has and it confirms what you already believe exactly you know so isn't that what you're isn't that what church is though yeah you have someone tell you have pastor tell you that what you already kind of know or what you're kind of believe right and it's the same stories over and over again neuroplasticity just kind of doing its work you know and it's funny you don't even realize how psychological all of this is until you're on the other side of it you know and then you're like oh man I see that that was a I kind of knew because I was a musician so I kind of knew that what the game was to kind of like if you want to pump them up if you want to roll them up if you want to bring things down before the before the money play goes out like there was like yeah you play in a minor key and you play this you know what I mean like there was that I was like oh this is this is wild. You know it's amazing to me how many people I've had on the show not even intentionally at all who were musicians in the church. You know and I think that's very interesting to me that a lot of people who are very artistic and try to make sense though like yeah because when you're artistic like you think outside the box art like true art really makes the comfor, what is the quote makes the gives comfort to the aggrieved and makes the comfort makes the comfortable uncomfortable or something. Like it's so real art like kind of shakes us from our from our you know comfort system compartment comfort zone. We're already thinking different we're already thinking outside the box we're already trying to come at it from a different angle and when we do it's like, this line up so good. That's what I mean like for me like I was bisexual and I was told all these horrible things about LGBTQ people and I was like none of that's true. So you know what I mean like so I was already on a on a path to deconstruction set up by the church because the church set it up like, God is God is God is their God doesn't make mistakes guy you're not this you're not that this is how God designed you and I'm like, nope nope none of that's true like to have an experience that sorry cannot verify I do have many notes here. And so they're already setting you up to like not trust either a their opinion or the Bible, or be your own direct experiences and I'm like well, if I don't trust my own direct experiences then nihilism right then my epistemology goes out the way. Pure existential crisis like, oh yeah, so the church set me up to throw out the doctrine of, you know, anti LGBT stuff because I'm like my like my experience is not this so I gotta get rid of that. Do you do you find that people it's hard for them to really understand unless someone they love is going through. And I because I think about my son, you know him never buying into the whole doctrine, you know I'm not saying he's the reason I deconstructed, but I am saying, he opened my eyes a little bit because I'm like this kid is amazing, like, do I really think God is going to send him to hell because he didn't say the prayer right and because he believed a little different than other people, you know, and I think it started the questions and then I was on survivor and one of my tribe mates was gay, and he was like a kid to me he was like my son. And so I loved him and I was like wait, you know, what do I do, you know what do I do with this happening, right, so the questions and I don't know if I would have been open to letting go of my belief in the way that I believed it. If there wasn't somebody who I loved, who was challenging me to just just listen, you know. Yeah, I think that that's the contact hypothesis is that we when we're in like mediated relationships of some way in this, you know, if it's our kids are kid if it's, you know, a coworker if it's a friend if it's some sort of relationship like that where we have some sort of bias against that group of people. And then we get to know them, that's when our minds can really be changed because then we, we do have more empathy we we realize I think that the narratives painted of this group of people will certainly aren't true of this one. Right, so maybe how many of these narratives are also untrue about other people and maybe this whole narrative is really untrue maybe maybe gay people aren't this terrible stain on society, they're all not all and doing terrible thing. Oh my gosh, they're just like us, they're just like people like the gay agenda is literally like grocery shopping and pain drills and driving your kids to school and and dance. They just want the same rights we have that's all. That's all right. That's their agenda and better interior design it's. Oh yeah, so much better. That's great. Yeah, but yeah but for a lot of people it does take direct contact and relationality to drop those biases and some people still double down. Unfortunately, I know. Well, and it makes, they don't know any different and I recently I guess David Archuleta, I don't know how to say it's last thing he was on American Idol like a billion years ago well he recently came out as gay. And you know he was in the Mormon community, and so he wrote a song called held together, and it was based on a conversation he had with his mom, and she basically when he told her who he was you know this is who I am and I have to live who I am. She didn't shun him she said well if you're going to hell I'm going to hell with you basically, and so we're going to go to hell together and I thought that's every mom, who is faced with a child. I remember oh my gosh Matthew I'm embarrassed to say it but I remember thinking the worst thing that could happen is if any of my kids ever told me they were gay, because I would have to do tough love, and I would have to make sure that they, you know, I knew that what they were doing was sinful and I wouldn't be able to go to their wedding and I was so afraid of that. And I, like now I'm just like I can't believe I was already like I was pre meditating Lee hating, before it even was a reality. I can tell you I would, there's nothing I wouldn't do for my kids, and I think in realizing that and you know you've got a daughter and you know there's just something so amazing about having a child and knowing that they are literally a part of you. There's just nothing you wouldn't do. I feel like that's how God looks at us. Yeah, I hope so. I've told I made a TikTok I think last week I was like, a lot of these Christians better hope the God they worship is not as vengeful as they say because if you're on the other end of it, if you ever find yourself on that other end for whatever reason. And there are plenty of biblical passages that put Christians right in that other you ever read Matthew 25. If that's about anyone it's Christians Matthew the people go to hell or Christians the goats are Christians like come on have you read the story that's why I was so terrified of it. Those passages are there for us Lord Lord and we and then we don't make you know all those past years in our Bible still. Yeah, so you know if they're doing things in his name that means they're Christians. Yeah, so you better you better be careful of on who you're condemning in which communities are condemning because really the Bible if it speaks to anything. And I think I would know this better than anyone because I really test not better than anyone, but you know what I mean like you know it well I was really looking for the scriptures that condemned me like I was like terrified of it. I was thinking about them all time. You can find most these are all no they're no they're they're all about us. Oh, I mean with my with my evangelical lens. Oh, got you okay now now I have a much more mystical approach any scripture I'm like oh there's so much truth behind here. And we actually missed the real truth behind where we're going to literalize everything. Oh yeah we literalize and historical lies. Yeah, but, but with that lens in there yeah there's plenty of warnings and none of them are about the communities that Christianity seems to not like all of them are for the people who claim to be the people of God. And like that's what it's all about like it's really all about hypocrisy, if you break it down further because it's about what do you claim and then what do you do. And if those two things don't line up Jesus got some things to say to you to sort of to complete the rhyme. That's a very, very good, very good summation I guess you could say. Yeah, I actually remember when I was in ministry and I was doing speaking engagements and on the radio and I remember thinking the reason I get out of bed every morning and do what I do is that Matthew is it 721 where they say I did this in your name and this and cast out demons and he said I never knew you get away from you know you who do evil and I'm like that's the first that's the first passage that I use in learning to float. It's the opening. I was really the one that got me because, and it one time I remember talking to my mom about that and she was like yeah we just, she reached out to me and was like yeah we just covered that and she even she was worried and I was like, see, I was like y'all live just all this flinging around this fear they even got you worried about if you're going to go to hell and they're flinging around this passage just. Yeah, and it's just fear fear fear fear fear and yet the Bible tells you what that. Post to. Not supposed to. God is love and perfect love. Exactly if God is love and perfect love casts out fear. Why are we so afraid of everything. And we don't realize that's what it is. We feel like we're not afraid because at least we said the prayer and we are not going to help, but if you're really honest. That means people you love are going there. And if that doesn't scare you, something's wrong with you. You're whack if you think well at least I'm okay. You know what I mean like I'm good. I don't think I really honestly don't believe half of them believe in eternal hell. There's no way. Shouldn't it paralyzed me. Like it was paralyzing fear. I honestly believe in it so I think some people do honestly believe in it. But I always laugh now. I'm like okay so you guys all believe in hell and then when I started asking questions, you didn't come after me very hard. Yeah, like wouldn't I be the great backslider to come back into the church. What a testimony that would be on Sunday. I know. Y'all gave up quick and I'm going to hell forever and you're mad that I just like called you guys assholes or something. Well, you know, it's interesting that you say that because I'm. I didn't say that. No, no, no, but you want to do. You thought about it. It's funny though. I remember thinking I'm going to get a phone call from the woman who was my mentor. She'll call me. You know, she'll want to talk to me and I'm ready. I'll talk to her when she's ready. You know, and you don't want to call them because you know, they've got to process a lot. So you're like, I've been waiting and waiting. Nothing. Nothing. Not even an acknowledgement. And I keep thinking, was she going to just not follow me now on Facebook or whatever. She does. She just keeps following me and I'm like, why are you following me? I know I'm driving you crazy. Like, and I don't know what to do. I don't want to not follow her because I don't care. But like, I mean, I care, but I don't want to. I don't want to be the one to say, I don't want you in my life. I just, the only reason I wouldn't want her in my life right now is because I don't want to hurt her. I don't want to make her scared or, you know, I don't know. It's just so weird. I really thought more people would come running after me. But it is, it is the friggin sibling of the prodigal son. You know what I mean? Like, like, they're just mad that, wait, she just lied to us that whole time. You mean, she wasn't really one of us, you know, and it's like, no, I really am. I'm like, like, if you came. That's the story. I'll tell you now, though. I know. I'll say that I watch on all these prominent decont, anti deconstruction channels. I heard Sean McDowell say that the other day. Wow. That if you deconstructed you, you might, you might not have been a Christian to begin with. And I was like, hmm. I had a lot of customer. No. How much. Yeah. You can spend this. Like. I spent so many hours. I was the utility guy, you know, in baseball, the guy who plays all the positions, not a starter, but all the positions. I've played every Wednesday and Sunday, basically, because I played every instrument. Almost so. I was on every team. They need a bass player. They need a guitar player later. They need a drummer. Mmm. And I was at that church for like, I felt like eight years straight. Mmm. 25 years as a Christian grew up in the faith, had the nightmares about hell. Went to church, got baptized. Did the Bible studies. Well, did you surrender your heart to Jesus? Yes. Because that's what they're going to say. You just talked about everything you did that you didn't talk about your. I did. I did. I did too. Actual repentance. I pushed away my bisexuality. I said, that's just, I'm not going to address that. Yeah. I put that whole thing away. I repent of everything. I continually repented. And how dare you not say I was a real Christian. Because I deconstructed and don't conclude what you conclude now. See, that's where. How do we have the conversations when they're not even listening to when we are having the conversations? Yeah. We're talking about our, our deconstruction and you're not listening. You conclude, oh, you might have not ever been a Christian. Right. Whoa. You weren't. So now. We're deceived. So everything we say is a lie. Everything we say is because we're deceived. And that's, that's why they're not listening. Because they don't think we have anything of value to add to a conversation. Because it doesn't line up with their agenda and their belief. Well, then they get, they'll get passed on by. And that's what, maybe that's what they're afraid of. That's why they got big platforms on YouTube and all this stuff. Because if enough people walk away, then eventually they're not going to have, they're not going to have mega churches eventually. Right now they still got all the power. I don't even know what they're worried about deconstruction. I mean, I know that nuns and nuns are. That's probably what they see. They see down the road, not enough. They're mega churches and their mega platforms aren't going to be around any longer. If you look for a deconstruction church or even like a progressive church, there's like 20 people there at some UCC or, or, or, or some ultra liberal Methodist church or, or, or, or a Piscopalian. You want to know where the churches are, where the numbers are, where the podcast numbers are. I mean, you know, I look at this stuff from a business standpoint. Millions of followers on evangelical podcasts, millions of dollars coming into mega churches. But they do see down the, I mean, so they're, they, that, that's a nice lifestyle they got. And pastors, you never heard of podcasters. We never heard of the big in the Christian world though. And if there's enough nuns and nuns and enough people deconstruct guess, guess where those people go. Well, not their church, not their podcast any longer enough people walk away. These podcasts are, you know, basically essentially. Firming up the thing they're already believing in. So of course they're going to listen to it because that is the literal humanity. One on one like we want to feed the neuro pathways that make us feel safest. So of course that's going to happen. And I guess my, I was laying in bed the other night just like, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? Like I am like one little teeny middle aged woman trying to fight a system. An institution with an agenda. You know, what am I doing? And then I thought, you know what? I'm, I am even if one person can listen and hear my heart. I'm really not trying to be. I'm not angry. I just please think, use the brain that God gave you and think through. Do you really believe that or were you told to believe it? And if you were told to believe it, is that really what happened? Is that really what God said? And I don't mean that like how, because as soon as some, you know, any evangelical hears that. They're like, well, that's what Satan said in the garden. God really say, you know, it's like, no, I, but literally like, please think, please use your brain. Does that sound like because to me, Matthew, and I know you'll agree with me on this, if God is sending people to an eternal conscious torment, because they don't say the prayer, the way all the people in, you know, in Christianity say it. That means the majority of people in the world are going to hell. Right. And if, if he's that kind of parent or she or they, whatever, if God is that kind of parent, that kind of parent would be in a lot of trouble in the legal system. That we have in this world, if they were sending their children, no matter what they did, to go burn for all of eternity. And yet we say, he's so good. He's so loving. He's giving us an opportunity to get out of hell. Well, if he was giving us an opportunity to get out, why is he giving us an opportunity to get in it in the first place? You know what I mean? Doesn't make any sense. Yeah. Well, they would say you have. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they, they, they all have the free will defense for hell, but it doesn't get away the fact that. Who would go to who would choose to go to that? Like, come on your skin burning off for all of eternity. Nobody is going to choose that. It's called coercion anyway. Sorry. Yeah. I get upset. I get upset. Not because I'm mad. I'm just like. You get this harmful because it's so harmful to me and to my children. What's frustrating is they're not listening and they don't. Like, my argument for universalism, let's say, is not because I was afraid of hell. My argument, I wasn't, I didn't know universalism existed. I didn't know that was a doctor. Yeah. The church did not tell me the actual church history. Right. Chocking. Right. When I found out that for the first 300 years, it was like a predominant doctrine. I was like, really? Y'all didn't? Y'all didn't? That doesn't mean it's right, but you could have told me. Yeah. So, but my, my, my abhorrence for hell is not based on like my personal, like, being afraid of it. I'm, I'm glad that doctrinally some other option was there. Yeah. But at least listen to us when we're telling you this. You can still believe in hell. You could still believe in the inerrancy of scripture, but don't sit here and say why we're deconstructing or what you think about the fact that we're deconstructing. Who cares what you think about it? You're not doing it. Right. It's not happening to you. So it doesn't matter. Why do you, why do you have all these platforms to talk about what's other people. Because they feel like it is happening to them. They feel like it is a personal attack on the church. And they feel like it is, and that's why they're doing it. Right. And that needs to, that needs to point back on them. Why are you, I'll give you an example. I mean, why are you being narcissistic about this? It's not about you. The same thing happened when I came out by my in-laws made it about them. And I was like, how on baby Jesus has got greener that you make this upon you like. Well, it's yeah. Like, are you diagnosing narcissistic and, and, and I say that as a joke, I would never diagnose it. No. I don't have to. I mean, but we do tend to create narcissistic tendencies in the church. We make it all about us and we say it's all about Jesus and all about that. But, but really we make it all about us. We make it all about like we use the church to kind of feed ourselves, to make, to make ourselves feel better. We want to go hear the truth to validate what we already think and it's, but it's just, it's all me, me, me, especially in the Western church. Yeah. It's about my salvation and my atonement. Well, in Judaism, that's foreign, like, yeah, we talk like in Judaism, from my understanding, atonement was for the, like, the Hebrew people. We weren't talking about my personal salvation. I'm going to go find my personal Messiah. Like the Messiah was for Israel, like, right. We've made it also very, very personal, a personal Jesus. I dated a girl who was like basically dating Jesus. I was like, how am I supposed to compete with this dude? It was like, that's, it's like Jesus is my boyfriend type of thing, like, it's so narcissistic and we breed narcissists in the church. Yeah. Oh, that's a really good point. Wow. Wow. I feel like I can bring in Lord of the Rings. Like when, you know, those scenes where they're like creating the rakai out of the gross, it's like kind of what we do in the church, like create these, like, monstrous sort of that wouldn't be there otherwise. We just, it's like, it's just there like, that's why there's so many abuse scandals in the church. All swept under the rug and everything. Like how many freaking narcissists says we have we created? Right. Well, and they, they don't want to talk about it because they want, they don't want to make the church or God look bad. It's like, um, if I'm not talking about it, you're making the church make God look like you're making a little hours, buddy. Yeah. I know. It's insane. I could probably talk about this all day. But I want to be respectful of your time. So, um, thank you. This was been, I mean, it's been great. I, I don't really, I hope I got enough of your journey. I feel like we just kind of really riffed a little bit, but I love riffing. You know, that's my thing. Riffing is fun. I'm a musician. So riff and school. Yeah. Um, but anyway, how can people get your book? What tell me a little bit about your newest book? Yeah. Real briefly. Um, so it's a first of its kind. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. It's just, it seems to be a true thing and I've verified that with some Tolkien scholars, um, that my medic theory in Middle Earth, untangling desire in Tolkien's legendarium is the first book, the first full book that, that takes a look at my medic theory, which is a theory of human behavior and uses Tolkien's literature as kind of a teaching tool. So my medic theory was, that was originally developed through literature by characters behaving certain ways that our desires being, my medic and triangular and imitative, our behavior being imitative. And then René Girard realized, oh, our characters are that way because we are. Um, and, and the Christian story, not proper, not understood by evangelicals, but properly understood from an anthropological standpoint, really sheds light on kind of a different way of telling our stories and Tolkien's stories kind of follow, follow in that pattern without being allegorical. Um, and so there's a lot of really good stuff with desire and the ring and symbolism and how Saruman is an imitation of Sauron, who's an imitation of Melkor, so I talk about all of that, but I really try to bring it back to like practical and like, okay, so what? And the so what is, yeah, so what does this mean for me today? Mm hmm. And for me, it's like, okay, then we also have positive my Mises, we have loving acts, we have creative my Mises, we have, we have anti sacrificial rituals, um, that we call community and we call tradition and these are all very good things. So let's not be so negative about my medic theory, let's also be positive and, um, even though we imitate each other, that's also how we learn, like, how do I think my daughter's a great dancer? It's not by reading a pamphlet, like it's by copying and imitating others who came before her. Um, so I, I, I get into that and like, well, what can we find in these stories of this kind of love for others and Sam and Frodo, we see that and Frodo and his love for his community, the Shire and Aragorn and how we can compare him and Boromir and how we can compare Boromir and Feromir and how does desire and desire for power play into that and my God, um, desire for power, we see in so many, we just started talking about the church for so long, like, um, so that's what I'm trying to do. I think I do a good job in the book, uh, it's a first attempt in all of literature from what I understand. So that's exciting though. How fun. You have to revolutionary. Hey, you know what, I'm just here to make sure that's awesome. Well, that's awesome. Okay. Well, I'll put a link in the show notes so people can get your book that way and, um, and make sure if you read it, you leave a review because the reviews really help the authors grow and get their name and the book out there in people's hands. So, yeah, and can I just mention one thing before I go? Yeah, of course. I think it would be a really cool you and I, we've, you know, we've now partnered with choir. So we have this new thing called choir leans and it's a Facebook group and it's, so it's a really cool, it's a book reading group in a way, but the books are tailored for people who are deconstructing and are challenging their faith and are struggling with the repercussions and this and that. So our books are going to be centered on that. They're going to be people's stories. They're going to be books about theology. There's going to be books about heaven and hell and atonement. And then there's going to be books about deconstruction and how do you find God through that? And so it's just a, but in addition to that, then there's a community of people who are also reading the book. And so you're going to have great conversations and people you'll become friends with online and things like that. So. Well, it's also fun. We talked to the authors themselves that just the depth that people are going and connecting and just really understanding that we are so, we are all going through so much. And it can be very traumatic, but I think community and connection can really help get you through those difficult times. And so yeah, let's invite you, please come be a part of the choirlings. The only cost of admission. There's really not much. All you do is put a review at the end after you read the book, review the book. That's it. And you even get to read the book. We provide it for you. There's a link you can read it right there. So yeah, please, it's called the choirlings, Q-U-O-I-R-L-I-N-G-S and yeah, I'm actually. And that's a play off the inklings and you can go look that up. It's related to Tolkien. Of course. Of course. Yes. And I get to be a realist. Yeah. Yeah. Leslie's running that. So I would just encourage anyone who is a bookworm, who wants free books and who wants to connect with other people who are going to the same stuff that we're all kind of going through. It's like it checks out all the boxes. So go do that. It's on Facebook and we'd love to have you. Yes, we would. And Matthew, thank you. I honor your journey. That was amazing. I appreciate the conversation. Actually, I'm like, "Dang, we need to do this more often." Yeah, we should start a podcast. Have a great day. Thanks so much for joining us today. [music] [music] (upbeat music)
