[MUSIC] Hey there, my name is Shane Kraddock and this is The Interage Podcast where I share a different take on how to lead and live a sustainable high performance life. Over the course of different episodes, I'm going to challenge the belief that tension, stress, and struggle are essential to success and creativity. My experience is that there's an easier way, there's a better way, and indeed there's an essential way that we need to explore for the times that we live in. So let's go ahead, let's jump in and explore. [MUSIC] Hello there and welcome to a special episode of The Interage with myself, Shane Kraddock. When I say special, I guess maybe there's two reasons for it being special. One is, as you know, if you're regular listening to this particular podcast, you know that the majority of the episodes are short, easy to digest, maybe nine to 13 minutes. And I've done it that way because I think that's mostly the way that I like to do it. I like to get things to digest quickly. Every now and again though, even for me as I'm listening to podcasts, like we only have a certain amount of time, my podcast has increased in special interviews. But every now and again, I like myself to listen to a long form interview. And we have a longer than normal episode today because it is an interview with somebody that I consider a friend and also who's a colleague and somebody that I admire and respect. And I've kind of made a decision to interview a few more people over the coming time, people that I find interesting, and hopefully because I find them interesting, maybe hopefully you'll find them interesting too. They're not necessarily always globally well known, like a lot of interview people, but I think sometimes the most interesting people are not globally well known. People doing great work, making a huge impact on people's lives and businesses. And this particular person is doing all of that and has done it for over 30 years. So you've got a huge amount of experience. Her name is Susan Taylor. I first met Susan through, I was actually online during the pandemic. And Susan is the CEO of a company called Genron International, which she co-founded with a guy called Joseph Jowarski. And I had been a long time fan and follower of the work of Joseph, a pioneer, on what you would call the inner game of leadership and life. And I suppose I initially met Susan and then was introduced to Joseph. And then I interviewed Joseph actually on this podcast, which actually is one of the most popular episodes that I've ever done. I think it's about episode 80. And again, that was a longer form interview. And actually at the end of that interview, as we were talking with Joseph, Joseph shared a story that he hadn't told many people. And it was a story about being in Scotland and trying to find this particular place where there was a high energy concentration. And I at the time was thinking, oh, I'm very much into that kind of stuff. And I'll probably be talking more about that stuff when we go along. Because some of it's scientific, some of it may be not yet. But it's very, very interesting to me. There's the energy of things, the energy of people, the energy of organizations. And the energy actually in the world in general, a lot of it in the unseen area. Anyway, Susan was the person that Joseph referred to in the story. And I put that story at the end of the podcast after the credits. And I said at the end of the, you know, the podcast, I said, listen, there's a little bit of a left to feel story at the after the credits. It mightn't be for everybody just to give you a heads up and warn you. I find it interesting. We put it in there. But what was interesting to me was that I've had a lot of people email me over the last two years since we did the interview to say that they loved that story. So if you liked that story, this is the person that the story is about. Now, Susan is somebody who I guess you call herself a transformational coach, facilitator, and she's has worked with some of the most renowned thought leaders in emotional, spiritual, leadership, intelligence, all that area. It's a very well-known names as she works, you know, now with entrepreneurs and business executives. And she's very much, I suppose she's her own approach to helping leaders gain clarity, shift, limiting mindsets, and maybe take a more purposeful approach to their work and their life. She's very also much skilled in what's called "Bomian dialogue." And she's just an all-around great human being. And so I think if you wanted to kind of get the most out of this interview, which we're about to go into now, I'll shut up in a second and you listen to Susan more than me, it would be no harm if you haven't listened to the Joseph Jorsky interview. I think as I say, it's episode 80. Listen to that first sense of the work of Joseph, because very much Susan was a co-founder in that business and a driving force with it as well. And then he mentioned Susan at the end with that story. And then we flow into this conversation with Susan. We cover quite a lot of grand, a lot of different areas that are of interest to me and also we explore a different way of looking at energy in particular. So I'm going to loop back at the end for a quick sum up as to some of the things that struck me from having spoken to Susan. And I suppose I should add in that I've been lucky enough to work very closely with Susan and with Joseph. We worked together on a project, a collaboration in 2023, where we kind of ran a program for 12 months with a group of leaders from around the world. Phenomenal experience to work up close with Susan and with Joseph. And so as I say, I think they know me well, I know them well. And hopefully that comes across the interview. There's a very relaxed conversation with me and Susan. And I'm also exploring areas that I'm genuinely curious about to get her perspective on. And from my point of view, this is a high, high value piece. So I hope you're listening to it all. And yeah, let's jump in. Susan Taylor, welcome to the inner edge. Thanks, Shane. It's good to see you again. Yeah. Likewise, it's great to have you. And it's great to have you in this context on the podcast. Obviously, I've known you for a few years now. And I thought for the people listening to the podcast, it'd be great to get an opportunity to kind of get a perspective from somebody like yourself, who's got such incredible experience and also insights into how to be a better leader. And also how to live better. And I think we're going to hit in some topics here that we haven't really hit on before with the podcast. And I kind of thought you'd be a perfect person to, to drive into. So the first thing that I want to talk about is, because you and I would often talk about this is the word authenticity. And before my Irish listeners maybe rolled their eyes and go, here we go. Because the authenticity word is, I think to a degree, overused, but still it's critically important and becoming much more important. So let's start with this one. What does authenticity mean to you? Trust me, people in the US will probably roll their eyes as well. So I think it's a global eye rolling. I think it's, I think it is overused. And yet, at least for myself, what I mean by authenticity is what it truly means to be genuine to oneself. So what do, what do I feel truly passionate about? What are the things that I feel that are unique to me, that I bring to the world in a way that I can practically apply them in my life and work? And I think it's maybe sometimes easier to talk about. Inauthenticity, because I think for me, at least it's something that we feel in our body and that's kind of the litmus tests or the way to gauge when I'm being more true to myself, let's say, versus when maybe I'm doing things or interacting in ways that feel counterintuitive to my authenticity. Yeah, so for me, when I'm really in that space of genuine, authentic, I guess, state of being, oftentimes, for example, I'll get like goosebumps or I'll feel a sense of joy and excitement. Oftentimes I'll get into flow. I won't feel like my work or whatever I'm doing in my personal life is a chore. It's more like a get to instead of a have to. Very good. Whereas the inauthentic feelings, I think are somewhat the opposite of that. Maybe I kind of get that feeling in the pit of my stomach or I wake up in the morning, I look at the calendar and I've got the first three meetings scheduled and I kind of get that, you know, I don't, I don't feel like doing this today. When did you, when did you first come across even what you're describing? There is a feeling when did you, when did you come across there? Was that something that you've learned over time that distinction between the two? It's definitely a both and I knew my sense of purpose when I was really, really young, really young. I was a child, but fast forward into, into my adulthood. The first time it really, really became something that I just could no longer ignore was when I was 28 years old and I was on maternity leave. My first daughter had been born. This was back in 1993 and up until that point after graduating from college, I had worked in the corporate arena. And while I was on maternity leave and I had this young child and for the first time I felt, wow, like I got to get it right. This little tiny creature is completely dependent upon me getting it right. And in that kind of way of thinking, I realized that something was missing for me in business, in the corporate industry that I was working in. And so during my maternity leave, I actually started my own business. And my own business was based in Raleigh, North Carolina. It was a bricks and mortar to start. And we, I got a business partner. We rented a penthouse and basically it was for people who are traveling to the Raleigh Durham Chapel Hill area, which was a very, very, very busy travel base, especially for a lot of medical industry people. Yeah. It was a place they could come for whatever it was they needed, whether that was a place to just take a reprieve or a conference room to hold a meeting or secretarial or administrative skills or so long story short, it was kind of like offering a physical version of a VA before VA's even existed. And that's how it started and the whole underpinning the intention that was present for me, which I think is more important than what it was, why it existed was because I wanted people, especially when they were traveling on business and they were away from their family members and those that they love. I wanted them to have a safe space where they felt like they would be human. So for me, linking it to my experience in corporate, I felt like what was missing was that human condition, that way of interacting in human ways, that way of really intentionally creating spaces to slow down and being more human so we don't get caught up so much in kind of that, you know, automatic pilot overworked, overwhelmed feeling. But it was a, it was a sanctuary, a space of reprieve where we could just, you know, help each other out. A last sentence on this, I think for me, innately within us is the desire to help each other, to be in service of one another. I mean, think about when a big disaster happens, like a hurricane on the east coast of the US, for example, the first reaction we all have really is to kind of run to give help, to give support. And so that's how it started for me way back 30 years ago or more. I haven't heard you tell that story before. So I mean, it's interesting to say that the vein of interest in being human and helping other people to be human, because obviously I can see how that stayed with you and still with you more than ever in terms of what you're doing in the leadership and business context. It's really interesting. Okay. So if we're looking at authenticity then in that context, what do you consider to be the biggest obstacles to, to be in that? I think that's a great question. And frankly, I think it begins in our childhood when we start, you go to school, at least here in the US. I don't know, at least going through the public school system, like I did. I don't know of many areas in education where there are spaces for children to just be who they are as children and kind of have a say in the gifts that they feel they bring or what they feel called to or what makes them feel happy, what gives them passion. I think it's, it's in a way socialized out of us because we have to meet certain criteria and it's a very structured way of meeting that criteria. And I think the school system kind of starts us there and then we finally get to university and all of a sudden it's a bit of a shock, right? Because we get choice, we get so much more choice and maybe through that feel like we have more freedom at which point then we're kind of pressured with, well, you have to know what you're going to major in, but we're 18 years old. You know, so again, I think there's not a lot of room to play generally with regard to those things that that call to us. And then, you know, if you just continue kind of as planned, I think there's a lot of what we're supposed to do and how we're supposed to be. And that kind of gets in the way, especially in our early adulthood years after going through our education. And then we're once again in a structure where there's a right and a wrong, where there's a way to do something and this is the way to do something because that's what my boss is telling me and that's the way I have to do it. And there isn't a lot of room, there isn't a lot of safe space to maybe challenge some of those things or be able to speak to things in a way that feel more in tune or more genuine to who I am. And I think that stifles some of our ideas. I think it puts us in a box, so to speak. And so as we then advance, I think we've been on the continuum. And then for me, I'll just say it's become even more important than ever before, because this is the last year that I'll be 50 something. So as I enter my sixth decade next year, I just feel like I need to really be putting my energy toward those things that light me up more so than the things that drain me. OK, there's quite a bit in what you just said there now. So I could pick money avenues to go down here with you. So let's see. I mean, I think first of all, I would agree, I think on this side of the pond, I think the way the schooling system is set up is, you know, it's going to be slightly different, but ultimately at the core, I think it's the same thing. And it creates the same problem. And I think that that is so that we think that's there in common. Suppose what I'm what I'm imagining is somebody listening to this. Who maybe is getting an intuition or feeling thinking, you know, this is striking the core for me. I don't feel I'm living my authentic self life, for whatever reason. It's a feeling, something's just striking a chord. But what does a person like that do from your point of view? How do they start? So I think the first strategy we need to consider is linked to mindsets and you and I both do a lot of work in that area. In other words, you know, what are the things that I am believing to be true? That maybe contribute to a certain emotion that I might have, whether it be something that feels very joyful or the opposite of that, something that might feel very unpleasant. And so I think it's important because if we want more of the former, then we have to first identify the mindsets that we believe we're holding and ask ourselves the question once identified. How is that mindset continuing to be in service to me and how I want to achieve my goals? Is it is it propelling me forward toward my goals, my vision, my dream? Or are they or or a particular mindset kind of, you know, holding me back or limiting me from those things I say I want to achieve? Because once we identify the mindsets, then I think we get to notice them more because we've kind of like been explicit about them. We've spoken them out loud, perhaps, or maybe we've journaled about them or maybe we've just simply thought or reflected about them. But once they're identified and we start noticing them, then we can do what what we know to be reframing, reframing those mindsets. And so how can I take something that I've just I've identified and then noticed is limiting me and turn it around in a way where it can fuel me, where it can link to that, that more genuine, true space that I have in myself. So I think there's something there about the mindsets in particular. I'm not saying that that's the only thing and that we should just turn all negative mindsets into positive. I'm not saying that at all. I mean, if I hold the mindset that I put my hand on a red hot stove and it's going to burn me, I should probably hang on to that mindset. I'm talking about the limiting beliefs that we could shift from from limiting us to actually creating limitless potential. And when I'm in that space of limitless potential flow where I feel free, where I feel joyful, where there's excitement and enthusiasm and passion, I think that's again, the thing that links to the authenticity piece that we were talking about a little, a little earlier. Okay. Well, I mean, I think, look, I think there's a couple of words I want to introduce here, kind of maybe to take what you said there and go a bit deeper with you on us, because I think you, you know, you said earlier on about your interest in being human, which, you know, which could sound silly almost because we are human, but the end of the day, I know what you mean, because in a way, at times, it seems almost like the world is becoming inhuman at times, especially with the advent of technology and business and people go more and more to their mind. So I'd often say to my clients, look, there's four dimensions to be inhuman. There's the physical side, there's the mental side, there's the emotional side, and then there's the spiritual side. Now, up to date, I probably haven't talked too much about the spiritual side, even though I'm hugely interested in it. And, you know, you and I were joking before we went live, say, Oh, you know, the certain areas of baby, we have us like concerned about mentioning because of severe reaction, but hey, we have to be brave. So let's, let's bring out the real us more. So I know for you that, you know, that's one of the reasons why we connect, we'd have similar interests or maybe values in that area. You'd often use the phrase, you know, doing what your soul feels called to do. I think more and more people are looking for that, that they're resonating with that. I know that you want to help entrepreneurs and business owners who maybe are spiritually driven. Now, maybe they don't feel comfortable saying that, but maybe they feel overwhelmed by digit life, but they have some sort of a calling, which I think connects to what you've been talking about in terms of that deeper sense of purpose, Bill. So the two words are soul and spiritual, right? So let's, let's take the first word. So what, what does soul mean to you? Well, I think for me, it, I want to just take a step back for a moment and mention this word human, because it is kind of silly that we're talking about it. Because we are human beings. And yet what came to my mind immediately, as you, as you said that, Shane, was, if you look up the word nature in the dictionary, you will not see human as part of that. Interesting. It's really interesting to me. It's fascinating. It's everything that is man-made and human beings are not considered part of nature. Wow. So why am I even saying that? Because for me, that's what links to the soul, right? It's that uniqueness that, that really unique, genuine thing that each one of us has that is our own that makes us who we are as a human being. And it's natural. It's natural as not something we have to force. It's not something that we have to pretend to be because that's again linked to authenticity when we will feel inauthentic, right? So for me, it really links to nature and it links to what I believe it means to be human, which is to tap into the natural gifts that we bring and use them in service through our work, through the way we live our lives, to actually contribute in ways where we feel called to contribute, where we feel called to contribute. So when I link that to the soul, I think the soul is kind of the messenger, if you will, to keep us on track. Because if I link it more practically to maybe how I feel when I've been working really, really hard for a very long time, long days, long hours, in a very complex kind of automatic pilot sort of way. Sure. Oftentimes, I think that's what we link to burnout. We link like the hamster wheel, right? Always being on 24/7. I think there's another component to burnout because I don't believe that anything is any one thing. So for me, yes, if you're overworked physically linking to your four cues, if you're overworked physically and intellectually, that can be contributed to burnout for sure. And the other side of that fence, right? If we're looking at this from a place of wholeness, the emotional and the spiritual piece is, if I'm doing all of that, and those activities are things that don't align with me and my uniqueness, that's ultimate dream. And that's where I think spirit declines, right? That energy, that intangible kind of energetic life force that we have, that lights up. And we know it's there when we feel that that moment of passion or that enthusiasm, I think, is a really good way to describe it. And we don't feel drained. We feel energized. We feel like we're in flow. So I don't know what the real definitions of those words are, but if I had to summarize it, it really is again, linking our in, linking our authenticity, those unique gifts that we bring that are directed to us, if you will, by our soul, right? The thing that was natural to us in our uniqueness in ways that light us up, ignite us, give us the fuel, give us motivation, inspiration. And I'd rather work in a way that feels like inspired action. Because when I feel inspired in my activities, in my doing, when I feel inspired in my doing, I know that I'm tapped in to what my soul is calling me to be, because it's naturally linking to those fairy things that are, again, are unique that I bring to the world. And there's no forcing. There's no convincing. It's just natural. It's as natural as breathing. I don't know what the official definitions are, but I think I'll go with yours because that sounds pretty cool. So do you, do you see the soul being connected to the mind? Or do you see that has been different? Or how do you see that? Oh, wow, that's a deep question. We're going to go for deep here now. We have to go. I guess it depends how we're defining the mind. I don't think it's an intellectual thing. Yeah. Here's here's something I just came up. You and I talk about what I call the four cues a lot. It's the intellectual quotient, emotional, spiritual and physical, just like you said. Yeah. When all of those are in sync, when all of those are in harmony, that's when I think the soul has been engaged. When any one of those things even are off kilter, I think the soul informs us and tries to put us back on track with being in harmony with oneself. Now, whether that comes from any one place, I don't, I don't think so. Yeah, I don't know. But for me, if I link it to kind of like this three dimensional experience that we're all having in a more physical way, it's going to take all four to be in harmony. So that's the best way to enter the into the fourth one there, the spiritual quotient or spirit quotient. So again, again, just to help somebody who's listening to this. And by the way, what you said there for me resonates as well, very much. So what the spiritual quotient or what what does spirituality mean to you? Because I know it's like your dad, like I just want to know what's your definition of that for you. My definition is it's it's the thing that's larger than me that cannot be defined. So I might call it the divine. I might call it God. I might call it source. I might call it the great spirit. But it's, it's that thing that is bigger than me that I know I am somehow interconnected with even though I can't see it, even though it doesn't present itself in ways that might feel tangible. But I know it's there kind of like oxygen. I know it's there because I certainly know how I feel when I'm not connected with it. And it's not that I'm ever disconnected with spirit, right? But I can certainly tell when my spirit is being drained, kind of like the battery is getting low. Yeah. Yeah. And again, I feel it in all four of those areas kind of at the same time, it's not just the spiritual quotient, so to speak, it's all four of them kind of at the same time. And I guess for me, it's like oil and water. The feeling of not being connected to spirit is oil and water. But for me, again, that that thing that's larger. It links to service being in service, being here, not just for oneself, but you know, being here for myself in a way that's going to be helpful and be in service to other. Because that's just how I think we we all expand. Okay, a few questions there. And it just occurred to me as well that your definition of burnout earlier. I mean, I would agree with you 100%. I don't think it's just down to working long hours and things like, because I know myself, for myself and for other people that when you're connected in that way that you're talking about to spirit or source or, you know, you, as you said, you're you're you're lit up. It's almost like that kind of energy in a way doesn't get diminished. Whereas when you're not connected to that kind of energy or source, it's much easier to get burnout. I think that's the burnout that a lot of people experience it, which is why I think even talking about the subject is quite interesting. Because as you know, if somebody could be listening to this thing, it'll hang on. I've pulled back my hours. I've worked on my exercise and my nutrition. But I'm just not feeling kind of in the zone or something missing. And this, this is I mean, I know this is something you've experienced I've experienced. That's why we're doing what we're doing. So it's kind of to kind of realize, Oh, yeah, so I think that makes total sense. Actually, just as an aside, I don't know if you know this, you probably do, but the word enthusiasm, the root word comes from entusos to be made, which means to be filled with God with the Greek word entusos, which I think is interesting. Yeah, so I think I think I could give an example, maybe that might be a bit helpful because it's it's really hard to put words to these things, right? Shane, soul, spirit, human. Yeah, without without also getting a trigger reaction from a lot of people thinking, Oh my God, what are they talking about? Indeed. So maybe to take it down a few notches, right? As you were just talking about, you know, sometimes how it might feel for some of us in business in particular, I, I started thinking about energy, I started thinking about energy and linking to the burnout conversation we were just having, I think oftentimes, in addition to long hours and, you know, just the complex, you know, dynamics we have in our in our companies and organizations today, it also links to putting energy into things that don't resonate with us. So for me, that links to the authenticity piece, which then links to the soul piece, the unique gifts that I bring that maybe I'm not tapping into in a way that brings me more enthusiasm and joy, which then links to the spirit piece because the energy gets drained again, like the battery. So somehow there's like a connection there for me around how I can't tell you how many people I've spoken with senior leaders, business executives, entrepreneurs, who say, you know, Susan, I've done it all. I made it to the top. I climbed the corporate ladder. I have everything I should. There's the S word. I have everything that should bring me joy and happiness. And yet I feel empty. There's no time to reflect. And I feel unfulfilled. Yet I've checked off all these boxes. And that's what I mean by what we're talking about here, putting energy toward the things that light me up in ways where my soul is nurtured. And my spirit is ignited. That's the missing piece. That's the missing piece that I think a lot of us kind of get caught into this trap, not just again, of overactivity. But I'd say the responsibility to be checking in with ourselves about whether I'm putting my energy again toward things that fulfill me or things that drain me. Because I can work just as hard on things that fulfill me. And I probably wouldn't burn out. I'd feel more energized. I'd feel more enthusiastic. I'd have more enjoyment in my life. Probably work smarter, not harder. We've heard that term before. Versus kind of the other way, right, where I'm putting the same amount of energy hours, time, it's effort. And I feel like I don't want to get up in the morning to go to work. I feel tired. I feel like something's missing. So those are kind of the two. I think that's a very practical way of looking at it. I can totally relate to that myself as well. I think, but to just with the example you're giving of, I've encountered this myself with, you know, somebody who everybody has things. Wow, look at them. They're so successful. I wish I had their life. And yet, to your point, they might say, listen, Susan, I've ticked all the boxes. I've got all my shirts, but I'm just feeling hollow, empty, unfulfilled, fit in the blank of the word. So for you, what's the solution for that person? So one thing I'd like to say about that, and I'm so glad you brought it up. I think it's human nature in a way, because of how we've been trained through school and business to compare ourselves to one another. And here's the thing. I think what we're comparing is not apples to apples. I think we're comparing kind of our behind the scenes shit to what we perceive this other person has, which is like the highlight reel, right? There's a quote out there that I've heard about something along those lines. And so that's interesting to me, because A, if I'm in a, if I'm in alignment with what feels authentic to me, I wouldn't be comparing. There's no need for that. So I think it's interesting how we do. I think we give a lot of power away to different people or different situations, simply because of how we choose to label them or the belief or mindsets that we have about those people's about, sorry, about those individuals or about those situations. You're all the same. You're all path. True to you that resonates for you. But I suppose in the authentic way we're talking about the inclination is to be less comparative is what you're saying. Right. I mean, if I'm in flow and I'm feeling, you know, for the most part, like, I mean, I get up in the morning, I look at my calendar and I'm like, wow, look at all these things I get to do instead of look at all these things I have to do, right? I'm living the dream at that point, right? I'm in flow and all these kinds of, I'd say more positive emotions are really present. And I think at that point, I want to help others create that for themselves instead of trying to compare myself, like what would be the need, I guess? What would I have to believe to be true to compare myself in the situation where I'm feeling like completely fulfilled? I don't think it could exist and I could be wrong, but that's just kind of a theory that I'm holding. No, I can kind of resonate with that. It kind of, for me, sparks a point around. I'm noticing kind of almost a mini trend of people getting out of businesses and that they just don't love and that they just got their, to your point, their energy isn't in the right space after a bit of reflection or maybe work with somebody like yourself. They kind of go, right, you know what, this isn't really what I want to be doing. I want to be doing something over here. So I'm going to start doing that. And I find a lot of entrepreneurs and business people in particular, I'm sure you've heard the say when they say, well, look, when I get to here and I make this amount of money, then I will do what I really love. Exactly. And I would think, well, why waste any time because you're making a lot of assumptions about even dare I say, if you'll be here, because, you know, at a certain point, you kind of go, actually, no, we can't make that assumption all the time. So why would you bother waiting for this magical moment in the future? So I think that's, I think the word that's sticking out for me so far in our conversation is the words you brought in around natural. And also that distinction, which I think is amazing, that definition of, I think you said of nature as a human being, there's nothing to do with nature. And is that what you said? The definition doesn't even have human being in it. Which is ironic when you think about somebody, the expression, even in English, you could say, Oh, look, they're very natural. They're very natural in what they're doing. What does that even mean? Because it implies effortlessness, implies somebody just in the zone. Not overthinking doing what they're meant to do, which is, I think that's quite interesting. And because you put in the word energy, I know there's, you know, a lot of people who've listened to this podcast have listened to the interview with Joseph Jowarski. And that got a big reaction, a positive reaction, obviously you've spent many years working with Joseph. But at the end of that particular interview, there was a story that came up that he shared. And it was to do with you and he were over in Scotland visiting a place, trying to find a certain location that apparently had, I think, quite strong energy. And it was quite a unique story. And at the time, if I'm being honest, part of me was like, Oh, I don't know if I can actually put this story in because it might just, it might read people out. And I kind of put it in as a kind of a bonus little section at the end of the interview, of the podcast interview after the credits rolls. But because I put it there, a lot of people did listen to it. And actually a lot of people come up and say, Hey, I really love that story. So if you were listening to that story, Susan is the person who was actually the, at the time was the unidentified star of the show. So now we have Susan here. So I guess we can hear from you a little bit about that story in terms of the energy ever, maybe from your point of view, would you mind sharing it? No, not at all. I might have minded maybe 10 years ago, if I'm honest. Yeah, again, for me, it links to this word natural. I think we all have natural abilities. We all have natural inclinations. We all have natural gifts, if you will, that that we bring. And one of mine is I'm able to really sense into intuitively different things. And in the story that you were just mentioning, we were, we were looking for a body of water called Lockmore in Scotland. And we were looking for it because some research had been done with regard to some of the energy in the land there linked to what are often called ley lines or dragon lines. There are areas on the planet and there are areas on the earth where, for example, might be considered to be an energetic vortex, or in most cases, usually a place where sacred sites are, had been built from our indigenous ancestors. So that shared, we were looking for it because we were looking to do some nature retreats out there with executives. And long story short, I actually knew where it was. And as we were doing our reconnaissance visit, and as part of that, looking around the property with the landscape architect, he was taking us to all these places. And I never said anything because I was scared. I was afraid, I was afraid to say that I knew where it was. And then eventually, as we got to the close of the trip, I just said to Joseph, I said, it's not here, it's over there. But by the way, just to give context, this was a pretty large estate. Wasn't that, I mean, how big was it? Were you talking a couple of hundred acres or something? It was pretty big. It was very, very big. Very, very big, very, very remote. And I had actually sensed that we were supposed to take a helicopter from Inverness to this property. And we couldn't that morning because it was really foggy. And so we had to drive and it takes, if you have ever been to Scotland, I think you know that it takes a lot longer to drive than it does to fly, because a lot of the roads just continually wind in these beautiful ways. But I knew it, I felt it in the car. I was in the backseat and I felt it to my right. And I knew, I knew from that moment, but I never said anything. And kind of a long-winded way to say, 10 years ago, I'm not sure that I would have appreciated even Joseph telling the story. And I certainly never would have said anything. And yet that feels so counterintuitive to everything we've been talking about and everything I feel that I represent with regard to, you know, bringing harmony first within ourselves to bring harmony, external of ourselves. And what I mean by that is we keep pretending. We keep pretending. We pretend because we're afraid to be seen for her, we really are. Or maybe we're afraid of the gifts that we have that might be considered to esoteric or to spiritual or to whatever. You know, we gravitate toward these things that are concrete and tangible and physical, like the things we can hold in our hand. And yet at some level, however we are tapped into ourselves, we know that it's more than that. And we just describe it in different ways. And so I intuitively knew where to go. I could have saved us a couple of days had I just been honest with myself and not been afraid to share that authenticity with the client and Joseph. So you could have saved the trip a couple of days by actually saying, hey, no, no, it's over here. Well, yeah. And is that I'm assuming that that sense ability in terms of an energy kind of a context has been with you since you were a child? Yeah, I've known my purpose for a very long time since I was five, which is a bit unusual. And at the same time as we're talking here, you know, for those of us who maybe are thinking about tuning out at this point. I just, you know, I just want to remind us how we can even think about bringing this down a little bit to a more practical level, even through people that maybe we trust like Einstein, who talks about the rational and the intuition and how it's not an either or it's it's a both and and or come into these conversations in ways where I think you said it earlier, I might not be explicit that I'm spiritually motivated, but I'm certainly curious about it. I'm certainly curious about these other dynamics that we have as human beings and would like to, you know, explore them a little bit. So curiosity is something that's coming up for me as well. And even linked to the Scotland story, it's one thing to have a knowing. It's another thing to be attached to whether that knowing becomes something that was right or wrong. Right. So I think curiosity at least allows a space where I can play and I can experiment and I can say, you know, hey, Joseph, it's over there and we go check it out and I have no attachment to whether it is the place or not. Yeah. Right. You just expressed an opinion or you've expressed something and okay, I'm not attached to whether it's right or wrong, which is the best way. Okay, so let's take the lead on your point about being the practical side of us. So okay, we kind of moved gently around certain words like nature and soul and spirituality and energy. And hopefully people are still with us. Okay, we might have lost a few, but hopefully not, right? So now let's go into practical and say, okay, somebody listened to this could be a busy business owner, a busy leader, somebody who's got competing demands for their time and their attention. And we're talking about being more authentic or, you know, to your point, you know, okay, let's improve in my energy. And we talked about the four quotients, what are on a practical level for you? What would you say to somebody today to much to improve all of that? What could they do in the next 24 hours? Slow it down. Slow it down. I mean, just like anything, too much of anything is too much of anything is not a good thing. So to the person you just described, who maybe has a back-to-back calendar, where are there the moments for reflection? Where are the moments in your schedule, in your day, to rejuvenate, to refuel? I mean, even think about it in terms of, you know, our computers, right? They need to reboot. We do too. And it's not even about managing time. It's about, again, in my opinion, managing energy, right? If I have to do things that are continually creating a space where I'm putting my energy into things that don't resonate as much as other things, how am I going to actually take a moment to kind of self-care? Because those things need to get done. Let's make it real. I am not a big fan of doing my tax returns. It takes a long, long time, right? And yet it has to get done. And so in those moments in particular, how am I building space around myself so I can bring my best self to the tax return and getting it completed? So let me push back on behalf of some people listening to this or thinking, that sounds great. I just don't have time. And anyway, like reflection, I mean, look, I'll reflect in six months time when I do that yoga retreat. I'll reflect then. I just have time to reflect now. So what would you say to that person? Why is reflection important? I would ask that person if they do the same thing with people that they love. Maybe they have children. Maybe they have a spouse, partner, those colleagues, friends. And I would also suggest that we can do this in microbursts. Everybody has at least five minutes. Everybody can choose to have five minutes. What would it be like if you just put a five minute break in between every single meeting or call on your calendar? Just as a way to even take a breath or grab a coffee or get a breath of fresh air or take a bio break. I mean, everybody has five minutes. And for me, it's cumulative because we're kind of rebuilding a habit. We're rebuilding a habit. And so I've just gotten into for myself a space where I started with 15 minutes between my meetings, especially when we started doing a lot of work on Zoom after the pandemic, because that's screen time. It's just, I mean, you can Google and find all the research in the world about how unhealthy all this screen time is for us, right? So why would we keep doing that hour after hour after hour after hour? And what do you do, Susan, for that 15 minutes? Yeah, well, it's and it's moved to 30, by the way, but I'll just say I started with 15. I don't do anything. And I don't want to like create a space where we talk about being and doing a separate things are always being and we're always doing. But for me, those moments are more being moments for me. It's intentionally incorporating time for reflection, time for just being, time for not, you know, time for rest. I think that's a good word. And what I do personally, most often is I just love being outdoors. So I go outdoors. And I'll take a short walk or I'll sit in my backyard, which I've made kind of my sanctuary with things that I love around me, different plants and water and what have you and and just sit quietly in silence and reflect or not. That's what I like to do, get outside. And coming to the end here, I mean, I think, you know, I think I was sharing with you before we went live with this, that somebody who runs a busy business, you know, what I what I mentioned about some of this stuff around reflection and maybe being developing their energetic side of their spiritual side or that they just said, listen, there's no point get into that while I want to business. I'll do that when I retire, or I'll do that after I sell my business. What would you say to somebody like that? Well, we talked about this earlier, this idea of why wait, I think to take it to a a deeper level and maybe maybe drive at home from a different angle. You know, I hear a lot because I work with a lot of busy people and have for the last 30 years, Joseph and I, for the last 30 plus years. And oftentimes, actually, more often than not, I hear people talk about their family and how important their family is to them. But how much energy are you actually devoting to your family? I won't even talk about it in terms of time because that's not fair. We spend 75% of our time at work. Okay, as adults, I'm talking about it in terms of energy. If that is something, for example, that feels truly, truly important to me authentically, then why am I not putting more energy into the thing I say that I want and into the thing that I say is so meaningful to me? And so if you've got something that feels meaningful to you, why would you wait to act on it? Why would you wait to try to bring it to fruition or manifest it into your life? Because we don't know how long we have that six month retreat, I might get hit by a truck before then, then I don't even get to go on the retreat. So a little facetious there, but I think it's just important, again, when we can slow it down and take a moment to really reflect on what feels important, most important to us. That's where we should be placing 80% of our energy. Okay, super. I suppose what's sticking out for me from this conversation, ultimately, again, go back to that word is the natural word. And I think as you've been talking and we're having a dialogue, I guess it's almost like the intention of creating a more natural version of ourselves, which brings us up to a higher level, really, it's a more natural version of it. So we started talking about nature, maybe we close it there. Susan, I know you do a lot of work, one to one with people in the coaching capacity. And also, as you mentioned, everyone, you've worked with organizations. What's the website for your business? So we're at jennoroninternational.com. Okay, so I'll put that in the show notes. I'll also put your contact details in us. And I think also a program that's current right now, which is reignite your spirit, we put that up there in the show notes that people are interested in, want to check it out as well. Thank you. Very generous of you, Shane. I deeply appreciate you. Well, thank you for giving your time. And thanks for giving your provoking conversation. Absolutely. I came to please. Well, listen, thank you very much. Thank you, Shane. Appreciate it. So that was Susan Taylor. And I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. There was lots more I could ask Susan, but I guess I was keeping it too within a certain time limit. Just my own thoughts on things, perhaps resonated with me three in particular. One was the, this was very practical advice Susan gave when I asked, look, what can somebody do in the next 24 hours around living a more authentic life in business and their personal life? And she said, you know, taking time, making time to slow down and to plant it into your day. And that to me is very practical. I can relate to it. It's something that I would talk about with my clients. And a lot of people in my field, I just haven't got that time. And I think if that's your reaction, which I think will be for a lot of people, I think it's worth stopping and going, hang on a second here, you know, when will I have time? And usually that's never because the world is getting busier and busier. And I know because my clients are telling me that they'll use me in a way to force reflection, to force slowing down. But as Susan says, and then she says to her clients, it's about bringing that space into your day in between meetings and not waiting. So I think that was the first thing that really struck home. The second thing was around, you know, as part of that reflection, creating space is to make time to look for your own natural, unique gifts, your own naturalness, your uniqueness, and the things that light you up. And again, there's a huge amount in that I can relate to it hugely in my own life. I've seen it with people that I work with, I've seen people around me. That is something that's real. And I think that connects to this soul area, you know, that spiritual area, the path that you're perhaps born to take. Very often, when we get into our heads, maybe to taking out what other people think we should do, or what society says to success, we very often lose connection with that. And then we lose that, it's a feeling as we kind of know we're off our path. And I think that's becoming more common as a thing to talk about now. Certainly, I hear it more, and I talk about it more, and I probably will be talking about it more. And then the final thing that probably stuck according in relation to that is that there's definitely a lot more to us than perhaps we might realize. You know, that there are those four functions, the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. But ultimately, as Susan said, you know, it's about connecting with our humaneness, bizarrely becoming more human. And I think I certainly relate to that. I see it a lot in terms of when we get into our heads too much, it blocks off perhaps that authenticity and that spiritual side, that soul side. And when we can kind of connect with that side, though, it brings in a depth and a richness and avoids falling into that trap that she talked about where a lot of, you know, so-called success with people would say, I've got it all, I've got everything I should have, but I feel empty. And I hear that a lot. And I think it's out there, it's not necessarily spoken about. A lot of people are suffering with that in silence almost, yet there is a solution. And sometimes a good starting point for that solution is to maybe listen to something like this, or to talk to somebody in that context to start a conversation, to go through the pain barriers you're uncovering. Anyway, there are my little takeaways. And if you've got any sort of nuggets that really struck court, feel free to email me and maybe have a question as well, because I'm curious about how you think or how you see this area. That's it for this week. Ciao for now. [Music]
