What is up plant people. It's time once more for the plant apology podcast. The show we dive into the lives and careers of some very cool people to figure out why they do what they do and what keeps them coming back for more. I'm Vikram Beliga, your host and your humble guide in this journey through the greenest of sciences. And as always, my friends, I am so excited to be with you today. Y'all I got to talk to my friend again today. And I was so excited to do it. So I've been trying to plan this episode for a little while and actually my guest was also trying to figure out how to get on the show for a while. We talked about that a little bit in the episode, but I had the pleasure of talking to my friend Ashley Bray of the get out alive podcast today. Now you may be thinking if you're a listener of get out alive. No, Ashley is a wildlife biologist. She's an animal person. And yes, that's true. But it turns out the lives of animals and plants are inexorably intertwined. And the balance of one greatly affects the balance of the other. So we talked about that a lot today. We talked about how deforestation and changes in plant communities cause encroachment by animals and causes shifts in the population of animals. We talked about how plant service habitats for animals and how animals help spread plant populations, things like that. We had a great conversation about everything from butterflies and insects to bears and science communication and trees and plants and all kinds of things. It's wonderful. It's great. Ashley's great. And I think you're really going to enjoy this episode. So just up front. If you don't already listen to the get out alive podcast, go do that. Go subscribe right now. And then as soon as you're done listening to this episode, go listen to get out alive because it's fantastic. So without any further delay, get yourselves ready for episode 110 of the plant anthropology podcast, habitats, invasive species, and possibly antagonistic bear interactions with my dear friend, Ashley Bray. Hi, Ashley. I am so excited to talk to you today. I'm also so excited, Vikram. Thanks for having me. Thanks for putting up with my terribleness at scheduling and doing all that stuff and just like being cool because I wanted to have you on the show for a long time. And then somehow it's now what mid 2024. And I'm like, oh, that's fine. Well, it's it's time. Yeah, you know, it was a career goal for me to get on this podcast. And I was like, how do I get on a podcast about plants as someone who knows next to nothing about plants? So thank you so much for having me. Oh, yeah, no, it's going to be great. I'm so excited. So I think probably a lot of my listeners know who you are. I think we probably share a fair amount of audience. I don't know how much it's always hard to know that. But for those that don't go ahead and introduce yourself, tell us about you, where'd you grow up, all the, all the fun things. Yeah. So my name is Ashley Bray. I am a board and raised New Englander currently in New Hampshire. And I don't really have like, so in terms of my background, I'm a wildlife biologist for those that don't know. And I don't have like a defining moment of like, I'm going to be a biologist, because this thing happened to me. I just like, when I was growing up was like, nope, this is what I'm going to be. I was the kid who like asked for like an animal encyclopedia for Christmas and stuff. I was a nerd and which no shame in being a nerd, still am. And I just like was always watching animal planet and whenever an adult was like, what do you want to do when you grow up? I was like, I want to be a conservationist, which no one knew what that was. Everyone was just like, Oh, you like animals, you're going to be a vet, which I did not want to do. So I told everyone I was going to be like Steve Irwin. So that's, that's kind of where I'm at. I don't exactly, I'm not nearly as cool as him, but I am on my path to that. That's see, that's so cool, though, that like, you knew, like, this is what I'm going to do as a kid, this is what I'm going to do. You know, my son from time to time either wants to be a firefighter or a ninja or like a space alien. So I don't, I don't know how the like job applications work for those, but you know, one of those three things is maybe practical, possible, but just to know that, Oh, I want to work with animals. I want to teach people about animals and go out and do conservation. That's so cool. Yeah. And it wasn't a linear path either. Like, I know, well, if you're someone who wants to like get into the wildlife field, there was no set path. So like, I initially, when I went to get my bachelor's degree, I went to the University of Vermont. And I originally went for microbiology because I was like, I want to make money. And I'm good in a lab. So cool. But then chemistry happened to me. And I was so bad at it. So I was like, I can't keep doing this because I needed like four years of chemistry. So I was like, okay, cool. I'm going to pivot to wildlife biology. Because I know I love that. I just know that I will never make a lot of money. So I have settled with that, which is fine. And I've been really lucky because I mean, it, you have to like fight for your life in the wildlife biology field and you are fighting for like pennies. And I've been lucky enough to have some jobs where I'm like, man, it does not even feel like I'm working. There is a lot of privilege in being able to work those like lower paying sometimes seasonal jobs. Like I'm lucky enough that I'm in a spot right now where I can pop around to different low paying jobs that are like really fun. But it is definitely not for everybody. So yeah, no, that that makes sense. And a lot of field work is like that. And you know, and listen, I understand the struggle, I'm a horticulturist. And when med school was not going to be a thing anymore, I was like, how about plants? Yeah, my parents were like, okay, big pivot. But here we are. And no, that's cool though. And there's there's a lot to be said for like, I don't know, getting to live your dream. And, and like, there's so much like joy and satisfaction in that. And I think that you do a good job of like wearing it on your sleeve, you seem like you love what you do. And it's like super infectious. And I think that's cool. Thanks. I feel like people feel the same way about you too. I mean, I think you said people have gone to that university just because they were like, I want Vikram as a professor. That's so cool. It is, you know, it's funny because like, we definitely have people like transfer into our major, like for sure. And there was one person that was like, Oh, no, I, you know, I started looking at the college because of that. And that's like just the craziest thing. It's just the craziest thing. But, you know, and that's one of the cool things. I guess as communicators and science communicators that we get to do is like talk to a lot of people and just be excited and happy about what we do. Yeah. I kind of similar, although maybe not so similar, I got a job last year and I was talking to one of my new coworkers about podcasts. And I mentioned, I usually don't talk about like the fact that I also do podcasts, but I mentioned the podcast. And she was like, Oh, what's it called? I'll look it up. And I mentioned the name of it. And she was like, Oh my God, I've been listening to you for like a year. And me and my husband listened to you together. And I was like, Oh, I've never expected to meet somebody in the wild like that. It was crazy. Well, the funny thing about that is like you'd already had that like she, you were looking at this person and it doesn't like it doesn't always click right away, right? You're out of context. Yeah. That's really cool. That is really, really very cool. So, you know, you're talking about how you have always wanted to be in the field that you're in, but like you spend a lot of time outdoors, like you spend a lot of time in nature being with nature. Like, is that something you grew up doing? Were you always like camping and hiking? Were you an outdoorsy kid? I am, I walk a fine line between being an outdoorsy kid and also loving video games and like sitting inside and reading. Like we were talking about before we recorded, I live in New England. It's not very nice here outside all the time. So on days where it is sunny, like today, I will like we New Englanders are like, if it is a sunny day, we need to get out there and make it happen. We need that vitamin D. So, I am happy to like kayaking stuff, but as a kid, my grandma, my parents were kind of just like, yeah, go outside and play and we'll see you around dinner time and don't get hit by a car. And that was it. So, I did spend a lot of time outside, but like we didn't really go camping much or anything. And I do hunt, but I didn't really start doing that until I was in my 20s. So, but yeah, that was a long, I don't know if I accurately answered that question, but it was a long winded answer. I don't think so. No, I think that's, that's interesting because I, okay. So, I have a rant. This just popped into my head. So, I'm just going to throw it at you. You have to think about how to phrase this. Okay. As a Noah Khan fan, how accurate of a picture does he paint of life in New England? Oh my God. I am, you know, I'm so happy you asked this. I've been waiting to be a consultant about Noah Khan. I also just want to throw, I played rugby with his cousin in college, which was really, yeah, and he was like an up-and-coming artist because I was in Burlington, Vermont, where he's like from. Anyways, it's very accurate. We're sad. It is rainy and cloudy all the time. And when the leaves go away, it's, I mean, I don't want to say it's not beautiful when the leaves go away, but like also, it gets pretty depressing here sometimes. So, that's so funny because like, I, I, I got love his music and I listen to it all the time. And I'm like, this can't be like, like, it's okay. Okay. Well, if it makes you feel any better, I grew up here out here on the prairie in the middle of nowhere. Like literally we are six hours from everything and like in the middle of nowhere. And so like growing up, we would go, we'd have to drive to go do nature. And that sounds weird. No, I get it. But like it's hot and it's windy and it's dry here. So we'd have to drive four or five hours to the mountains or, or something else to like go outside. So like, I grew up outside, but like in the garden, if that makes sense. And so like not doing like nature stuff, but still like looking at bugs and looking at leaves and all those kinds of things. Yeah. Now that you say that, I'm like, I don't know why I'm like forgetting my childhood, but yeah, it was the same thing. So like I grew up in a, I mean, it was a town. It wasn't like a city by any means, but we would have to drive to get towards like mountains and we were always either an hour away from mountains or an hour away from the beach, which is really a great thing to have. But yeah, we spent a lot of time in the garden too, which is funny because you became a horticulturist. And I was like, I, I still don't really know much about plants and I grew up in the garden. So so that was actually my next question. That's a good segue. Because I actually, as the years have gone on, I've had more and more like not plant people on the show. And I kind of love it. Because, you know, as we get into this episode a little bit more, what we're going to talk about is relationships between plants and animals and habitats and ecosystems and all that. So like, you're not a plant person. No, like you don't, you don't do plants. You know, I try my darndest having a garden every year. And I feel like every single season, I'm like, God, I have so many questions for Vikram. Like, when do I start these plants? I'm not good at plants, which is, I don't understand how it happened. Like, I feel like as a biologist, I should inherently understand how they work. And I don't. It's the okay. So that is such a good point, actually, because it there's, there's so much of like breadth in biology, that like understanding one system, you're like, Oh, yeah, no, I understand biology. And then you meet this weird thing. And you're just like, because like, if you ask me questions about like animal biology, I don't know. Like, I know a little bit. I know they have like legs and stuff and faces sometimes. And yeah, sometimes. And you know, I know about animals in so far as they like live in my house with me or interact with plants, but that's about it. And so like some of my animal biologists, friends will say things to me. I'm like, what really? Like, that's real. That gets a real thing. My wife studied wildlife science in college. So it's funny, like going to the zoo, because I will literally walk away and stare at trees. Like I'm that guy, actually, like there could be a lion. And I'm like, look at this tree. And she's just like, you're, you're the worst. Why are we here? Like, let's go to a park. Like, you know, there's trees there. But it's cool getting to see some of these intersections, which I think is like really what we're gonna get into talking about, because this comes up a little bit, because we had we're talking about ecology and sort of environmental sustainability in my class right now. And this is such a cool time to record this, because we were just yesterday in class talking about the sort of overall balance of an ecosystem. So like if plant populations are good, then the sort of related animal populations can be good. And then there's this ebb and flow and balance between plants and carnivores and herbivores and everything else. So as all of these organisms have evolved, we have these intricate close relationships. So I wanted to have you on to talk about that and talk about like, how do plants serve as like animal habitats and ecosystems, and how do like changes in plant populations that we're seeing from climate change and all kinds of things, like effect animals, which a lot of times get much better PR than plants. And you know, I don't know. So I think that that's really what I'd like to start diving into. So I know you said you did like a lot of research for this, which I'm very impressed by because I'm not good at that. So let's talk about like some cool relationships between plants and animals. What examples do you have? Yeah, I have so many. So the first one, I think is really obvious. And I think one that everyone is aware of giraffes and acacia trees. Yeah. So as we've, if you haven't seen a giraffe, take a moment, look it up. But it is the thing that has four legs, a long neck, lives in Africa, and they eat from acacia trees. And so for also at any point, feel free to stop me. I deep dive in a lot of weird ways. So okay, I'm excited. I'm looking forward to this. So they giraffes first came into being in the Myocene epoch, which was like 23 to 5.3 million years ago. And ever since they have been in an evolutionary arms race with the acacia tree. So they have those long necks to eat from acacia trees. They also evolved with like other herbivores that eat like lower down vegetation. But so they specialize in eating higher up vegetation from trees. So the leaves of the acacia tree are really high in protein and nutrients, which makes them the giraffes like favorite food source. So in response to this predation, you could say from giraffes on their leaves, the acacia trees grew thorns in an attempt to deter them. And then the giraffe was like, I'll do you one better and grew like a longer, more flexible, like prehensile tongue and then thick lips. So that way, even if they get stabbed by a thorn, they're not bothered. And so it is funny you say that because we were at the zoo last year and I was not looking at animals this time. Their tongues are like upsettingly long and and dexterous. It's weird. Yeah, it is so they can get around the thorns to grab the leaves because they can eat 29 kilograms of acacia leaves and twigs a day, which is a lot. One giraffe. So if you have a herd, that's a lot. It's a lot. So the thorns in the acacia tree are like eight to 10 centimeters long and are very sharp. So they, you know, got the lips got the tongue to get around all that damage. So the acacia tree was like, all right, great. So that was no longer working for them. So they, I almost had decided, obviously, that's not how evolution works. But for the sake of this, so the acacia tree evolved to release tannins, which taste awful to the giraffe. And they also inhibit digestion because they make the plant material like difficult for the giraffe to digest. And even cooler, which I thought you would like because plants, if a neighboring acacia tree is being eaten by a giraffe and releases tannins, the nearby trees will also release tannins to deter giraffes from the entire area, which is wild that plants can do that. It's so cool. And just to, I'm going to shoehorn in more plant facts. We see this in like tomatoes and stuff too. Like lots of plants communicate in this way. So like tomato plant, have you ever smelled a tomato plant? Like they have a very, very, like, I don't know how to describe it, but it's a very distinct smell, nothing else that I can think of smells like a tomato plant. It's kind of weird, like not even things in the same genus, like peppers and eggplants. But so they have these like little, calm tricomes, so the little hairs with like a bulb on them that produce these volatile organic compounds. So when a caterpillar or whatever starts feeding on it, they'll release these VOCs and other tomatoes have receptors that kind of like the acacia, they can like smell it. They don't not smelling. Yeah, I was going to ask how that works because I did not understand how that works. So they're just these little binding sites in some of the cells on the tricomes and on the leaves. And it signals through the plant to like release defense chemicals to make the leaves more bitter or to release some of these VOCs themselves. So some caterpillars don't like the smell of it. It'll like drive them away. It's like a real kind of acrid. Like for a human, it's not terrible. But if you're, you know, this big and there's a lot of it. But what's crazy is like there are predatory and parasitic wasps and birds and other predators that have evolved to detect the smell as well. So when caterpillars start feeding on tomatoes, they like call in reinforcements from the predators of the caterpillars to come eat them. Wow. Well, that's a great position because I found, in this case, very similar, there is a species of stinging ant that have figured out how to make a home within the thorns of the acacia tree. Like they hollow them out and live in the thorns. So when the giraffes come and try to feed on it, the ants will go sting the giraffe to get it away from the tree. Oh, that's nightmarish. Yeah. No, this is like an awful, awful plant to live around, but they love it. Like giant needles full of ants. Yeah, ants that sting you. Yeah. And I was curious too, like, so the acacia tree is releasing these tannins. And I'm sure like, you know, it could be the same with other plants, like the tomato plant in this sense. So they're releasing the tannins, but like how long do they stay like in the leaves? If that makes sense? Hmm. You know, that's a good question. I don't actually know that answer. I know that a lot of times with different trees and different plants, like as stuff deposits in the leaves, it takes a while for it to metabolize out, like leaves sort of have a couple of specific jobs and it's producing sugar, you know, producing carbohydrates. But they also respire. They're also processing and like processing out waste products from the plants and things like that. So sometimes they can hang around for a while. I would think on an acacia tree, something that lives in like dry climates, it would hang around for a while, because they're not moving a ton of water and they can't like flush it out super quick. Yeah. But I don't know. That's an interesting question. Yeah. Sorry to spring that on you, because obviously like, education is not around here, but I'll cut in what I'm editing. I'll cut it. I'll look it up and put in a tag there anyway. Good for you. You know, all right. So another fun example of convolution that I have is the buff tailed sickleback hummingbird and the quote lobster claw heliconia flowers. Am I pronouncing that right? Yeah. Cool. Great. So they're in the tropical Americas and if you look this bird up, so that's the buff tailed sickleback hummingbird and sickleback is one word. Who names birds? Like who said? I wish I knew it. Some of them are pretty wack, but if you look this bird up, it has a very distinct bill shape that perfectly matches the flower of the heliconia flowers. And when you see them side by side, it is like startling how similar the shape is. And it's so that bill can perfectly fit into these flowers to get the nectar from it. I'm looking this up right now. I'm listening to you. Okay. Because now I have to see it. Oh, you are not kidding. Right. That's so crazy. Yeah, it's reminding me of like Darwin's finches. If people are familiar with Darwin's finches from the Volapagos, but like they are so specialized to this plant that they went all in on this one plant. And from people who live around them, they say that these hummingbirds are rarely ever found away from these flowers because they check the same flowers on a regular repeatable sequence every single day. Like it's their job. Oh, wow. Yeah. And luckily for this hummingbird, the heliconia flower are fairly common throughout the neotropics and are used as well as an ornamental in gardens. But you can imagine how quickly and devastating it would be if this plant for some reason was to be affected by like disease or climate change, it would wipe out the entire species because they would have no time to adapt to a different plant. So yeah, and that's and that's such an important point too. And I think this is a good time to maybe just throw in a quick discussion about thinking about ecosystems in general. You know, when we talk about resiliency in an ecosystem, there are some that there's tons of different options, right? We've got generalists and specialists. And in this case, like this relationship between the which is Bufftail. Bufftail setback. I love that so much. And this heliconia are it's like there's no resiliency there. No, it is. It is like one thing. This is this is the only thing. And it's almost like they got lucky that the plant that they rely on is like favored by humans, you know, and that it hasn't been negatively affected by climate change. So yeah, that's that's wild. It's such a cool little bird. I'm going to have to look at more pictures of that. There are other species that are like pretty similar, but that one I was like, this one is so distinct. But and then another example I have, and I really wanted to touch on because it's local to me and I think it ties perfectly back into my line of work, which is normally like a human wildlife conflict stuff. So the Whitetail deer, they're everywhere. I think Texas in Texas. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we have we have Whitetail and Mule deer here too. Nice. Yeah. So in the northeastern US, we just have naturally, we just have Whitetails and they are everywhere in urban areas. They can also be really overpopulated because there's no hunting. So a lot of people love Whitetail deer is rightfully so they're precious and a lot of people feed them. And I'm not talking like bird feeders. I mean, like people like obviously deer will eat out of bird feeders, but some people intentionally put out food for deer and here in the northeast, when it's wintertime, people who may think that their well meaning will put things out like corn for the deer to help supplement, right? However, this is not great for the deer and might be like killing them with kindness, so to speak, because they have evolved four specific plants at specific times of the year. So in the winter, their gut biome actually changes due to what is available. So throughout the year, they're eating brows, so like leaves and buds in the end of twigs and stuff in some woody plants. And then they'll also eat like fungi and like in forms, nuts, berries, grass, and then sometimes because there's never like a true one size fits all thing in nature, sometimes they'll eat protein like baby birds. So which is very disturbing, we don't have to get into that, but so they can be pretty picky like in normal warmer seasons, like spring and summer, but as it gets closer to winter and things like grass and nuts disappear, they need to shift to eating mostly brows, which is not really nutritious for them. So they've evolved to survive these winters in the northern part of their range by having a gut biome that slows down and gets ready to digest these low quality foods throughout the winter months. So if you give them a huge pile of corn that is really high energy and they're like, well, this is great, I'm just going to get a belly full of this, they don't actually have time for their microbiomes to adjust to that type of food and they can literally die from starvation, from not being able to like get the nutrients from the things that they're being fed. Wow. Yeah. Wow, that's wild. And again, just we'll throw this in a few times, don't feed the wildlife. Yep, that's not encouraging them alone, just leave them alone. Yeah, I think if there's any point to be taken from this, it would be that, it would be leave them, they know what they're doing. They're mostly okay. So. Yeah, well, yeah, and again, I like what you say to about people being well-meaning in this, because I think most people genuinely like, oh, they need food like that. We think like, you know, because we struggle in the winter, sometimes, or as a species, you know, because food is more scarce and we're adapted differently. It's one of the, if you're cold, they're cold things, right? It's the same kind of deal, like, don't bring the mountain layer in your kitchen. They're not cold. And we see this on the plant side too, because there are a lot of like, well-meaning people. And I, you know, I don't like like calling specific people out unless it's like five-minute crafts or whatever. All bets are off there. But there's, there's someone on social media right now that people are calling like the modern Johnny Appleseed. And he's like going around, essentially in wild areas, like saying, oh, these like landscape plants are bad, turf grass is bad, and some, there's some truths of that. But just like planting vegetables outside and like throwing vegetable seeds out and throwing things like that out, saying, oh, we should have food in these wild spaces, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, okay, I get where you're coming from. However, these are non-native plants. These are not adapted to the ecosystem. They are probably not great for the wildlife. They're going to force out. So we do things that I think a lot as people trying to be like, oh, because this makes sense to me, this is a thing that I should do when there's so much science and so much intricacy in this that it can be, it can be problematic. Yeah, I also love that people are calling him like the modern Johnny Appleseed. It's like, do you know that you could also just forage native plants, like people, people used to live here and live off of the things here before there was tomatoes thrown in the ground. So like there actually is stuff you can eat if you know what you're looking for. And kind of a lot of it. Yeah. Like throughout the US. Yep, absolutely. I think that's that's such a good point. I like that. I don't know. I like the way you approach that thought of, look, I know you're trying to help, but maybe helpless or different. I don't know. Maybe helpless. That could be applied to so many things that we're going to talk about today. So yeah, yep. So as we sort of talked a little bit about it and your example of the hummingbird, I think was a good one that as we lose ecosystems, as we lose plants, like especially specific plants, you know, we hit we lose some of these relationships. How does this affect? I mean, I think there's a clear relationship you've already talked about, but on a grander scale, what is this due to our animals if we start to lose some of our important native plant species? Yeah, so I'm going to be a broken record. I have examples for everything because as you're aware in biology, there's not like a one size fits all thing. So generally, I can say things like, you know, logging destroys wildlife habitat. And that is true. And although it can be done sustainably, often companies that are clear cutting are not like replacing with the diverse species that they took. So it is like, for example, where my family hunts in northern Maine, they've cut down a ton of the forest there, and they just instead of replacing with what was naturally there, they just have been planting like perfect rows of spruce trees. Oh, and I'm like, first of all, things need more than just pine cones to live. And second, like God forbid, like a fungus or some other disease comes along that affects spruce. And then there's nothing for anything, things like that are things to think about. But we've already talked about a few examples of like animals that rely heavily on certain plants. So like you said, you can imagine what would happen to them if they just disappear. But when I think of creatures affected by climate change and like changing plant communities, the first creatures to come into my mind are butterflies. Okay. I am by no means like an insect expert, but I do know a little about these species. So two that come to my mind, first of all, because I love Lupins are the carniv blue butterfly here in New Hampshire, and then the mission blue butterfly in California. And although they're on opposite sides of the country, they both heavily rely on Lupins and the Lupins in New Hampshire, the native ones anyways, are different from the Lupins in California, of course. But specifically for the mission blue in California, the looping that they need was threatened by a fungal pathogen recently, and it's become more prevalent like that pathogen as the climate warms and kills more plants. And then also as the climate warms, the seasons shift. So the plant is adapting to the shifting of the season and the butterfly, its life cycles falling out of sync with that plant's new life cycle as the climate changes. And then here in New Hampshire, similar but kind of different problem. So the carniv blue butterfly lays their eggs and then the caterpillars hatch on the Lupins. And the only thing that those caterpillars eat is the wild blue Lupin leaves. But these Lupins here in New Hampshire need fire or regular disturbances to create open patches for them. And we suppress fires here because we generally think fire equals bad. So it actually ends up harming this Lupin that we're not letting these fires happen or we're not disturbing the areas in the correct ways. So the destruction of that and then pine barons are like a type of ecosystem that has also been deforested here in New Hampshire, which would allow for that plant to grow. We've seen losses of wild Lupins here and then also the loss of this butterfly. So there's like a reintroduction program happening here in New Hampshire to try to get them out and we're trying to replant Lupins, but it is very, it's tough. Yeah. And you know, I think people that have been listening for a while are like probably getting the picture talking about fire and how fire is like important to pretty much every ecosystem on the planet. Like it's a natural process. And yeah, I get it like we're flammable and our houses are flammable and stuff. So like controlling it makes sense. But you know, it's only more recently that we're really being better and more thoughtful about prescribed burns and taking care of that particular part of ecosystem management. We had a couple of episodes ago, I talked to a restoration ecologist in plants and we have had huge fires appear in my part of Texas, something like one and a half million acres burned over about 10 days. Oh my god. It was maybe a little bit longer. Maybe it was like, but still, it was crazy. Huge grass fires. But we talked on the backside of that as horrible as that is like how many species will sort of get rejuvenated and get another shot to establish and things like that. Talking about the lupins in your area and that close relationship with the butterflies. Again, it feels counterintuitive, but but fire is not bad. Fire is like kind of a good thing. Yeah. And I think it goes to show there's a trade off. So, you know, not everything can survive together at the same time. And sometimes some things need to blip out of an area so other things can move in. And it's a cycle that we have disrupted that was going on for thousands of years before we got here. Yeah, didn't need our help. No, definitely didn't. That's a good one. And it makes me think too about, you know, monarchs. We're kind of in the path of the monarch migration. We're a little bit on the western edge through Texas, but and there's a lot of conversations now about specific species of milkweed that are getting planted. There's a tropical and there's a bunch of them, but a lot of the tropical ones stay flowering longer into the season. And they actually hold the monarchs in place too long in some cases. So when they should be heading south, the native species have already dropped their leaves. They've already finished flowering. That forage is gone. And that host plant is mostly gone or on its way out. So the monarchs take that as a sign as well. We should move on. Yeah. But again, being well-intentioned, we're like, Oh, milkweed is milkweed. And we plant it and it lasts too long. And so there's again, these tiny little things that we can do to be more ecologically minded, I think. Yeah. And especially butterflies, I think are such a good example of how fragile things can be and how things have been timed together for so long. And we are just figuring it all out. We don't really know or have a good understanding of how it all works, but we're trying. We're getting there, I think. Yeah. So, okay, you had texted me beforehand with a topic. You're like, I don't know if this is too controversial, but we'll go into it a little bit. Let's talk about spotted owls. Yeah, you know, man, so I feel like I've garnered maybe like a reputation of talking about controversial things. So we're just going to get into it as best as we can. So spotted owls are very controversial right now in the wildlife conservation field. And I'm not here to like convince anyone that there is a right or wrong answer, but I just want to explain the situation as it's happening. So the spotted owl lives in old growth forests in the Pacific Northwest. And these forests had had, because a lot of them are gone, but had multiple layers of canopies and animals like spotted owls needed these like decaying, bigger, older trees for nesting cavities. And then they needed the multiple layers of forest for varying food sources. So over the last 150 years, heavy logging of the areas have left only 10% of these forests intact. And yeah, and most of that is on federally owned land. And that land is federally protected, but it is very fragmented. And from 1995, which was just five years after these spotted owls were federally listed as like a threatened species, and up until 2018, their populations have declined by 65%. Wow. That's that's a big number. It is that is a very large number. It's very close to 100. And there are only a few thousand individuals left. So I don't want to get us two into like wildlife law, but sure, I would be remiss if I didn't mention. So the spotted owls only existing on federal land also means that the government has like a ton of control over how they manage these owls, which is kind of correct to the problem that we're going to talk about. Because it's on federally owned lands, technically the federal government does not have to take any conservation measures if they don't want to. So that's complicated. And it's a story for another day. But they have also acknowledged that the owls warrant further protection. And they have been put into this category called quote warranted, but precluded, which means for animals listed on the Endangered Species Act, this essentially gives the federal government like an excuse to not change anything. They're acknowledging like, we think that this species needs more, but we just don't have the time or resources to do anything about it. So they don't. And there are a lot of species in that category, which has led to like a ton of litigation, which just makes the problem worse, because they're stuck in litigation. And I'm not saying that that's not, you know, suing isn't a valid thing to do. But it just, it makes the problem worse. So it's just, it's a very messy problem. But beyond habitat loss and fragmentation, the spotted owl is now in competition with a species that they hadn't encountered before. And that is the very visually similar barred owl, which was originally just found in the Eastern US, but they've started moving west and they are more aggressive than the spotted owl. So they will outcompete the smaller spotted owl and push them out in either into less suitable habitat or just straight up kill them, because that's how raptors do stuff. So this is where the controversy comes in, because the US Fish and Wildlife Service has within this past year proposed to lethally remove 470,000 barred owls in California, Washington and Oregon over the next three decades. Wow. Yeah, six figures worth of barred owls that it's a lot. And there is literally no other program in the country that lethally removes a bird that is covered under the Migratory Bird Treaty Act, which is pretty much most birds. So naturally, animal activists and other people who love birds are calling out this program saying it's choosing the survival of one bird over another, even though the source of the problem was humans logging. Interest. Yeah. Oh, that's so complicated. Yeah, because it's like, well, obviously we need to address the logging and we need more old growth forests. But like, this killing of barred owls is like a quick band aid, because they're like, oh, this other thing popped up. So it might as well just wipe them out. I mean, and barred owls by no means are like about to go extinct, you know, like there's plenty of them here in the Northeast, but it is an interesting problem because you are choosing one bird survival over another, but the difference is one is like a species being lost forever. So it's very nuanced, but. Wow. And and I think what that drives home or what that should drive home to a lot of people listening is how complicated conservation can be. Because I, you know, as humans, we want things black and white, right? We want it. Here's the right answer. Here's the wrong answer. This is what you should do. And there's so much nuance in that. And there's so much, just unfortunately, like uncomfortable gray area. When we talk about plants and animals alike, you know, an interesting example, just on the plant side is is dandelions. And this, this sounds weird, but like the dandelion that everyone like loves and, you know, the cute little flower that pops up in the spring, whatever, you blow a little thing. Like, it's not a native species to North America. It's a European species that was introduced, but they're, they've been here a long time. They're naturalized pretty much everywhere. They're, you know, pretty, they've been here long enough that they still serve as pretty good early season forage for a lot of pollinators and things like that. But they're not a native species. And so there are people that, oh no, we should get rid of all of them. There shouldn't be any dandelions here. They're not, you know, native and they're, there are advocates of that. And then a lot of people are like, well, hold on, like they're well adapted. They're not really invasive. They're not like really causing any harm. Probably they're a net good, you know, overall. So I think when we have these conservation and ecology conversations, like there has to be a little bit of flexibility and grace that we extend through it because, again, right, we're trying our best. Yeah. It's hard. It's everyone's first time here. Like we're all just trying to figure it out together. But, you know, that's interesting too about the dandelions because the, I would say the biggest difference between my field and your field is if you want to get rid of an animal, you can do that. Like you can physically find that animal and kill it. How the heck do you get rid of every single dandelion? That seems impossible. You pretty much don't. Yeah. And then that's, and that's like when we talk about like invasive species in plants and getting rid of that. I mean, it's possible, but a lot of times the is the remedy for that worse than the problem they're causing. Like, yeah, we could go out and spray herbicides and do all kinds of things and get rid of them, but like at what cost, you know, and so no, it can be tough. And because of how quickly plants evolve, how quickly they can adapt, it can be really challenging. Yeah, which also like point one to plants like good for them, you know. Yeah, you know, I always say that plants always win because they evolve quickly and they're just waiting us out. It's okay. Yeah, they really are. One thing I was curious about and as we sort of, because I want to talk a little bit more about like ecology and plants, but I also want to talk about some of the communication stuff you do. And I want to hear about your podcast and I want my listeners to hear about your podcast, but where you live in the Northeast, like what ecosystems, and you mentioned this a little bit, you know, with, I guess, logging companies going back in with just like rows of spruce or whatever in the ecosystems where you live. And as in your job and in your life, like what changes have you seen in, and I think you've answered some of this already, but in like animal populations, practically for you, as someone who does this, like how have you seen the impact of, you know, species lost and habitat loss on your animal populations? Yeah, I mean, so, you know, I've lived in New England my whole life, and I've lived in some relatively rural areas. And just where I've lived in this few small towns, I've seen so much deforestation, which I think is generally the trend throughout the US. And it's definitely causing more and more wildlife to have to move into urban areas. So it's causing a lot more human wildlife conflict, because the wildlife has really nowhere else to go. And not every species of wild animals necessarily decreasing population. So it makes it really complicated. And so one big example that I used to have to deal with a lot is black bears. So this is generally true throughout most of the US, but their populations are increasing, not decreasing. And they're coming more and more into conflict with people as they move into urban spaces, because they love eating bird seed and also garbage and compost and literally anything else, they're omnivores, they can do it all. They can hunt, they can forage, they can do whatever. So honestly, good for the black bear, but they're also a bear. So generally people who have not been used to living in wild spaces are not comfortable with a couple hundred pound semi carnivore living around them. And it's complicated for me because on the one hand, of course, I want more wildlife. But on the other hand, there's so many of them that they're becoming accustomed to people. And especially post COVID, so many people from urban areas move to more rural areas. And they just like seem to not inherently like understand how wildlife works. So there's just like a lot of intolerance of people for these issues. And then yeah, so anyways, long story short, a lot of animals are being driven into more human spaces. And it seems like we're butting heads a lot. And especially for animals like black bears. And there's obviously more bigger, scarier ish animals in the US like grizzlies, like it is warranted for people to be afraid of that kind of conflict. And it is like those conflicts are increasing. So I think that's why it's important to have conversations about like, hey, how do we live around black bears? How do you secure trash and like what plants do they normally eat? And you know, if you have a whole row of blackberry bushes in your backyard and you're afraid of bears, is that really the best choice for you for your garden? You know, so stuff like that. Because they'll eat pretty much anything, right? Oh, yeah. Yep. I think about like the, yeah, I don't know, I think about my part of the country where technically, technically, we are not outside of the extended range for a black bear. I was looking at a map the other day. You're not going to see, I don't think a whole lot of bears like roaming the prairies out here. But like, technically, they don't have to be too far. We've got some canyons and stuff near here where they could be. But like, you know, I have a fox wander in my backyard sometimes and get it or a possum and get into my trash or whatever. And the thought of that being a bear is just, it's, and then you see like videos on social media of people like, come here, bear, I'm going to pet you. And I'm like, that's a bear. What are you doing? Yeah, that's the other flip side of this is people just like are just so out of touch with how to appropriately deal with being around wildlife. So yeah, there's a lot to it. But yeah, deforestation has led to people enough being as comfortable with the animals that are moving in because they don't have places to go. So oh my goodness. Yeah, that's, that's, again, I'm just thinking about opening my back door and having a bear look at me and I'm like, yeah, no, I don't want to. Yeah, because I've had so many people reach out from places that don't live like they don't have bears or black bears. And so many people are like, oh my god, I can't imagine what's like going in the woods. And I'm like, I never, for all the times I'm in the woods, like by myself in the middle of the woods, you know, like off any sort of trails, I've never once been afraid of encountering a black bear. And I think that's important because like when you're in the woods, they can get away and things are normal and how they're supposed to be. But if you encounter a black bear in your fenced in backyard, there's only so many places for it to go. So it can get very icky or not icky. That's not the right. It can be very scary, very fast. Yeah. Well, also could be icky. I've listened to your podcast. That's a good point too, that like out there where they live, like they know what they're doing. They can, they don't really want to mess with you. Like, I can't imagine most of them want a whole lot to do with you. Yeah. Yeah, general. I mean, there's hundreds of thousands or whatever. Exactly. Yeah. There's hundreds of thousands of black bears in the country. And like they, yeah, they know what they're doing. They would prefer to not be with us. So this seems like a pretty good time for a break and an opportunity to reflect on how bears don't want to spend time with us. We'll be right back. We'll hey there. Welcome to the mid-roll. How are you doing today? Are you enjoying this episode? I know I am. We're going to talk about bears more in the second half of this episode. So buckle up for that. How are your house plants? Tell them I said hi. I hope they're doing well. Thanks again for listening and being a part of what we do here at Plantapology means the world to me. Thanks so much to the Texas Tech Department of Plant and Soil Science for also being a part of the show and for letting me do it and for being so supportive. Thanks to the Davis College of Agricultural Sciences and Natural Resources as well. But again, more than anything, thanks to you, the listener, for being a part of this. If you want to support Plantapology, there's a lot of ways to do it. First off, connect. Get on social media. Look up Plantapology on all the different platforms. Look me up. Personally, the Plant prof, I'm all over the place too. I like it when people reach out and say hi. So do that. You can send me an email at plantapologypod@gmail.com with thoughts, comments, information, whatever, potential guests, anything you want to talk to me about, shoot me an email, hit me up on social media. You can also support the show by rating and reviewing anywhere you can on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or any of your podcasts listening apps. You can do it on social media. If there's a way that you can leave a rating for the show, it would mean the world to me. But the best way to help the show grow is always by word of mouth. Tell your friends about Plantapology. You have a friend that likes plants. You have a friend that should like plants. Tell them about the show. Also, you can financially support the show if you'd like to at buymeacoffee.com/plantapology. And for the price of a coffee, you will buy me a coffee or you can go to plantapologypodcast.com and click on merch and find all kinds of good stuff. I wanted to tell you today, though, about something really, really, really cool. I had the opportunity to partner with the Lubbock Arts Alliance. And if you know, I live in Lubbock, Texas, spoilers, and the Lubbock Arts Alliance is a group that I've worked with in different capacities over time. But they reached out a while back and asked if I'd helped them promote a new art exhibit. And when I say art exhibit, you're probably thinking about something in a gallery, which is awesome. But this is a citywide art exhibit. So the Lubbock Arts Alliance has something called the PDA collection, the public display art. And it has a large sculptures and art pieces along the highways all over town. In fact, it's a collaborative project with the Texas Department of Transportation, Tornado Industrial Arts, the Lubbock Arts Alliance, and several other civic organizations. But this new exhibit as part of the PDA collection is called delightful fantasy flowers by artist Glory Heartsfield from Stella Missouri. And these things are so cool. So cool. I've gotten the opportunity to see these in person. They're like 13 feet tall, they're colorful and whimsical. And they are reminiscent of a lot of really cool flowers that you can grow in your garden. Lots of wildflowers from zinnias to marigolds to columbines and several others. But these delightful fantasy flowers are named after sort of facets of happiness, jolly, jubilant, joyful, and cheerful. So parts of what it means to be happy. So if you're ever in Lubbock, Texas, go drive around, go find these. I'm going to post a link to a map of where they can be found, as well as some pictures of the flowers themselves on my social media and in the description and everything else. But if you're around and you want to check these out, I would highly recommend it. They're very cool. Support public art, support your arts alliances if there's one where you live and just be involved in the community because plants and art go hand in hand and they are powerful ways to make our communities better and to bring us together. And speaking of bringing us together, let's talk about why we should stay away from bears and stuff. Let's get into it. I think what you do in your science communication role when you again, you do such a good job. I love watching your videos and seeing the stuff you post on whatever Twitter is now and listening to the podcast. Your show is genuinely one of my favorite podcasts. Just as a side note, I'm grateful for this show and your show because it's gotten to connect me with so many cool people. We never would have met. We wouldn't be friends if it's not for that. I think it's cool. I never think about when did we meet? Someone asked me recently, "How long have you known Vikram?" I was like, "I have no idea." I have no idea. It's been several years at this point. Several years at this point, I don't really know. I started doing this kind of seriously in 2020 when again, the world was, again, I don't know. I didn't know what I was doing with my time. So maybe that year, the next year, I don't really know, but it's been a while. Yeah, well, I'm happy we're here. In a minute. Yeah, no, me too. So how did you get into science communication and podcasting and all of that? Because you have a lot of the outdoor experience, the subject, matter, knowledge. What made you decide I want to get on the internet and get on the podcast space and tell people about it? Yeah. So really, my science communication started back in 2018. I was an intern at the Squam Lakes Natural Science Center in Holderness, New Hampshire, and I was terrified of public speaking. I was in college at the time, and I had taken those pre-rec communications classes where you give presentations to your class, but that's not real. No. So I was giving public presentations to maybe 100 or so people with a live animal. And public speaking gets a lot easier when you're holding a paragon falcon or feeding an opossum, because even if you're just blabbering on or stuttering, people are looking at an animal. And that's really what they care about. So it gets much easier to talk to a bunch of people that you don't know when you have a cool animal with you. And so normally, I was connecting with people who were like really excited about wildlife and they wanted to learn more. And then after college, I moved into a job where I responded to calls from people experiencing problems with wildlife. And they were, yeah, very rarely happy to be speaking with me about what was happening to them. And now I'm somewhere in between. So like, for podcasting, like getting into that, so I really started listening to podcasts when I was in college. And I was listening to a lot of true crime podcasts, because everyone did and has at some point, the problem is I listened to them so much that I got so anxious about being murdered all the time. It's not what you want. No. And I was realizing like, when you hear those stories of like mostly women being attacked, I'm a woman, identifies a woman. So I was like, well, this sucks. And no one's telling me what to do to stop it. Like, I just have to live in fear, you know. So I was like, okay, let's pivot away from that and move on to like, what about animal attacks? Like, are there animal tag podcasts out there, right? And I could not find a podcast that like ticked off the boxes of like what I was looking for. And I also just genuinely like wanted a podcast where I could learn more about human wildlife conflict and like the scariest ones, because people were saying to me, like, you know, if they were having an issue with a bear, they were like, well, if you don't come take the spare, like, if it kills me, it's your fault, which is a lot. Yeah, that's a lot. Yeah. So I wanted to be able to like, know how, know what to say to people and be like, okay, well, here's the actual frequency at which they attack people. And you know, here's all the info. So I couldn't find a podcast that did that. So I was like, you know what, screw it. I'll just like make one. And I, yeah, it's just been nice because I like can say what I feel and want. And I'm not, you know, trying to sugarcoat anything for people. Because yeah, these conflicts do happen. So like, let's talk about it and be honest about it. Yeah, that's super cool. And so something I always like to get like a feel for when I talk to other communicators, podcasters, or whatever is, you know, you made you made a point earlier, you said that, well, I've become known for talking about controversial things. And I was, I started, I've been thinking about that as we've been chatting. I'm like, it's interesting, because I see, you know, I see a lot of what you post and what you talk about. And I don't feel like I don't see the controversy in it. But I think it's maybe because I know a little bit about biology and ecology. And I think with a lot of things from God help us outdoor cats to to, which I know is your favorite thing, to a lot of the other stuff we deal with it. No, that could be like controversial. It could be the first time someone's hearing, Hey, maybe don't feed the bear, maybe putting corn out for the white deer is not, though the white tail deer is not the best idea. Like, what is that been like for you? What is the experience of like sort of putting this information out there been like for you? Yeah, I mean, so, you know, when I was doing those public talks, I love doing it because it was like interacting a lot of times with kids who were so pumped about it. So I was like, man, this is like what it's like to jumpstart a kid's career in conservation or wildlife. Like it felt so great. And then the flip side, I, you know, I normally like to think I have like a thick skin. But when I was talking with people about issues they were having with wildlife, and if they were like, well, I just want to kill this bear. Like I would take it so personally, because I was like, it's literally just trying to eat your trash. Like, I don't understand why you need to kill something that's just inconveniencing you. So it's been nice podcasting because I can say the things I'm feeling, and I have an hour or really however long I want to explain why I think that way. And I like to think that I, you know, halfway through a master's degree right now. So I like to think I'm pretty qualified to talk about wildlife and like, sure, I would think so. Yeah, like I like to think I know what I'm talking about. So it's been really nice to connect with people this way. And especially like because I talk about some hard topics, I've had quite a few people reach out and be like, I was terrified to go outside, and now I'm less scared because of your podcast. And I feel like if even one person said that to me, I'd be like, that's a win. Like I could stop podcasting and I would have won if one person felt better about going outside. So that's super cool. Yeah. No, I love that. So let's talk. I think a little bit about the show specifically get out alive, which is again, so good. It's so good. It's so much fun. By the way, and you know, this will be, I always have to think about, okay, when is this episode coming out and what is relevant? I don't exactly know. It won't be too long. But like, as we record this, you just came out with a new logo for the show, which is like a guy standing in front of a bear, like a mountain path. And I love it. Like, rest in peace to that guy. But like, yeah, it's like an homage to our original logo, which like kind of, I mean, I do love our original logo. It did look like clip art a little bit. I did pay an artist to make it. So it wasn't. But yeah, so it's like an homage to our original, but like just beefed up and more professional looking. So yeah, no, I love it. So, so, you know, you talk about on the show, like actual animal encounters that were usually, usually didn't go great. Like, usually it's like animal attacks or whatever. And I like that on the show, your co-host Nick kind of plays the straight man and is like, is like, I don't, I didn't know about that. And like the amount of times he's just shocked by something you tell him is so much fun to listen to. So, so in putting the show out there, do you have like a couple of stories that are things that you've learned through it? You think that'll stick with you? Like, what's your, what are, and I know it's hard to pick because I've been asked this question too. But like, do you have a couple of like most notable stories or things that you think are like your favorite things you've talked about? Yeah, I mean, the episode, and this is probably a recency bias, maybe not. But the most recent episode that we just had came out was with this man named, I call him Rajiv, his family calls him Rajiv. So repels, I called them that. Yeah, but his full name is like math and math views. And so he is a human-wide life complex specialist in India. And he responds to people that have been killed by animals. And like, so I'm just for a little more background, I guess, on me. I'm halfway through a master's degree in wildlife forensic science and conservation. So forensic science, that is dealing with dead things or dead people. So ideally, like in my mind, I want to help in like either wildlife trafficking or like literally responding to situations where animals have attacked people. So he does that. Like he responds to people that have been killed by animals. And he sent me, I just got the chills. He sent me some pictures of bodies of people who have been killed by elephants and sloth bears. Like the sloth bear victim, I couldn't even tell it was a person. Like it was like a lump. It was awful, big room. So that stuck with me. And he, just the way that he like responses so many of them, because in India, elephants, tigers, and leopards kill 400 to 500 people a year individually. So each species kills 400 to 500 people a year. Oh, wow. That's a lot. A lot. I mean, there is a lot of people in India, but like when you think about the US, that's what happening. No. Yeah. And obviously, like totally different habitat styles, totally different country, like different animals, whatever. But that, just like the way that he talks about it all. And he seems like a little jaded really stuck with me because I was like, man, like in the US, if a mountain lion kills somebody, it dies. Like we try to find it and kill it. And that is not the situation that happens around the world. So that was one story where I was like, man, that is a good reality check that like we, there is different stuff going on all over the place with some animals that are like really serious, like can be really scary. So that's one. And then the other one that really always will stick with me is we spoke with Jeremy Evans, who is a survivor of a grizzly bear attack. He was attacked three times in one day by the same bear. They just like couldn't get away from each other. And he like his face was gone. He also sent me pictures of a selfie. Oh my gosh. Yeah, I get really graphic stuff. There's part of the fun of talking about animal attacks, I guess. But yeah, he, I mean, his story is crazy. Like highly, he has a book called mall lessons learned by a grizzly, after a grizzly bear attack. And he highly encouraged you to check out him and the episode that we did with him. But it just, you know, when we're talking about animal attacks, it's very easy, I think, to forget. And especially, you know, talking about true crime, like I mentioned earlier, it's easy to forget that the podcast that you're hearing is about a person. Like, yeah, it's about someone who has a family, possibly children that are out there still like friends. There are people who responded to those calls or cases. And it is such a nice reminder that like you are hearing stories about real people. And it is not like fun or cool to listen to, you know, people being attacked by animals, like I do it to be educational. But like, this is a serious trauma people are going through. And it is not an easy death to be attacked by an animal by any means, unless it's like a tiger, and it kills you in like a second, because it bites your death. Yeah, it's still awful. You know, not broke. Yeah, but in the grains, different. Yes, it's different than being like mauled by a bear who's just like being defensive, you know, so I yeah, I've had some of those stories stick with me where I'm like, man, when you hear stories on podcasts, like you're not just hearing a story, like you're hearing about a person who was alive. So yeah, and one thing I think that you all do really well, and this was in my notes to actually say, because as people hear this, like, yeah, it's like, there are a lot of true crime fans out there. And, and I think that a lot of these podcasts, and this is not again, you know, this is not supposed to be a knock against anyone. But it's like, here's this horrible thing that happened. And then here is an ad for, you know, a mattress or, you know, like, it's just this weird disconnect. I think one thing that you all do well is like, there is a lot of humor in the show, but you do a good job of not, like you're not making light of the situation. You're not making light of like, I think you do a good job of like humanizing the stories of like paying sort of that respect that it deserves. But also, I think that what you're talking about too, of needing a little bit of like levity in the situation to keep it from just like, ah, all the time is, is important. And I think y'all strike that balance really well, which I think is, is hard to do. I think that that's something that I think y'all should be proud of, because I think it's really cool. Thanks. Yeah. And you know, like, the show is going through some really big changes right now. For example, Nick hasn't been on the show in a while. He, it's just like, podcasting isn't like a thing that you ever get taught. Like, you just kind of, everyone just starts doing it and you figure it out. And I think he just was like, this is it. I don't think I'm built for this. Like, I don't think this is the right thing for me, which is totally fine. Like, you know, we're still friends and whatever. But yeah, so it's been a lot of just me lately or like me with the guests, like the people I was talking about. I have some other friends like I'll talk to you sometimes too. But yeah, I always want to make a point of like, we're all people, you know, and yeah, I don't want to just like fully depress everyone all the time. Like I want you're listening to a podcast to be entertained. But I also don't want to like, make you question your life choices, you know, like, there's going to be a fun balance of like you're being entertained. But also we are talking about the serious thing. Yeah. Well, and again, I think that's that's that's again, a tough balance to strike and you do you do that very well. I wanted I'm looking it up because I wanted to get the episode number. Okay. This is this is a deep cut from in the way back when one of my favorite episodes because it caught me off guard so much is the episode about beavers. Yeah, I know you're gonna say that. Okay, because for one, this sent me down a rabbit hole of how freaking enormous beavers are so there's 65 pounds. That's a lie. I had no idea. Yeah, that's a large dog. Yeah, yeah, that's like it, you know, and we have, you know, I'm thinking about like the large carnivores we have around here and not the beavers like that, but yeah, you know, a coyote ways, an adult coyote ways like I had a 50 60 pounds, maybe a little bit more and some beavers should not be the size of coyotes. Like that's just that doesn't feel right. You're absolutely right. That does not feel right. No, it doesn't. That one caught me so off guard. Yeah. And like, I've listened to it a couple of times because just I was just like, did she say that like 65? Yeah, no, it's weird. So that was that was one of my favorite episodes because again, I know that was like three years ago looking back at my podcast player. Yeah, but it was so interesting. So just as we we sort of wrap up a little bit because I was looking at the time we were over an hour, which is fine. As part of, you know, doing podcasts and getting the word out about your podcast, like you have to sort of tie in other communication outlets, whether that's Instagram or Twitter or whatever. Do you have a favorite? Has that changed over time? Does podcasting count? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I would say that podcasting has been my favorite just because I am allowed to say what I want to say with like no tie to like, oh, I'm, you know, I'm representing this certain entity. So yeah, okay, very honest. But like, it has been nice because like, you know, the old adage, I don't know, I'm saying it's the old adage. But like, when we're talking about bears, have you ever heard the saying, if it's brown lie down, if it's black fight back? Yeah. Yeah, that's like not really accurate. And great. Yeah. But like, when you are, for example, like the National Park Service, there's no way for you to get out like the nuances of like, possibly antagonistic bear interactions in like a pamphlet. And you know, you can make a thread on Twitter, but like how many people are going to read through that. So I love podcasting because like, for an hour, we can sit and talk about, okay, should you actually fight a black bear? Should you actually, if a grizzly is coming at you lie down? So it's like the perfect medium where you can have really nuanced conversations about that kind of thing, and get at the heart of like these interactions, and what we should actually be doing, that you can't really do on other platforms, per se. Is the answer to both bear mace? Yep. That's it. That's really it. Okay, I guess it doesn't need to be nuanced. It could just be brown or black bear mace. Bear mace it. No, I was just curious because I was like, you know, I've always heard that I grew up hearing that. You know, we spent a lot of time in Colorado in the mountains and New Mexico in the mountains or whatever and that well, if you see a bear, this is what you're supposed to. Oh, okay. Like, and and I can probably count on the on one hand, the number of times, like as a kid hiking around the mountains with my brother, how many times we were actually like prepared for anything? Never. No. Like, like, if we see a bear, we're just going to get eaten by bears. Like, that's, I don't know. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. I appreciate it. It's it's on my resume. I have not been eaten by bears. And I think, you know, and we've kind of addressed it. I have one, like, more like content question than I want to hear just, you know, I have a couple of wrap up questions at the end, but with stuff like that, the misinformation that's out there, I feel like a lot of what you do through the podcast, a lot of what you do through social media is, and this is maybe a very specific question in some ways. Try to combat that. Like, what do you do if you see a bear or outdoor cat? I keep bringing that up. I'm sorry. That's like a raw. Yeah. Yeah. Or how door cats. Okay. Like, as someone who also does that a little bit, they're probably in different veins, like, how, how do you keep doing it? Because that can be very thankless, right? That is a that like getting in fights about that kind of stuff is probably pretty exhausting. Like what what keeps you going through your communications and all of that? Yeah, you know, it I once again like to think I have a thick skin, but sometimes that stuff does bother me or like if people are like, actually, your cat's depressed because she's stuck inside all the time. She those who are listening can't see, but Vikram can see that my cat is sitting behind me perfectly content to just be happy. Yeah, she actually doesn't even like going outside. So like, I don't know, certain things like do get to me, but especially a platform, like a podcast, it's really intimate. Like, we're in your ears right now. And if you haven't ever seen this before, you're like making up an image of us in your mind. And like, if you're binging my show or Vikram show, like, it feels like you really know us. So when, for example, maybe today, I say spotted owls are endangered next week, they're not, and you get like really mad at me about it. And you take it really personally, because you feel like this platform is, you know, so personal. We can't really, I mean, we can go back and edit things with new information, but like you can't do that with every single episode, every time something changes. I mean, like the Beaver episode, I don't remember everything I said in that episode, it was years ago, you don't remember every conversation you have every single day. No, so it can be a little nuanced to just like remind people, hey, I was having conversation with a friend. And maybe I said something that I like wasn't totally educated about, but like, I'll be better in the future. So, you know, for example, like in my podcast, some early episodes, I describe bear hibernation incorrectly, because I had been told bears don't actually hibernate. And then some bear experts reached out to me and they're like, hey, they do. Here's how it works. So in the next episode, I had about bears, I just was like, hey, by the way, I learned this new thing. And I was incorrect before my bed, but here's the new information. Now we all know more. Cool. And like, I think just easy things like that, like that can be combating misinformation. And I feel like as long as you're actively trying to have the newest and best information, and as long as you're not afraid to be like, hey, I was wrong and I'll be better. Like, then you in theory should be okay. And I feel like that's, I would rather people, I'd rather have an audience where people are upset at misinformation than an audience who just like outright believes everything that they hear. You know what I mean? I like that a lot. I have never thought of it in those terms, but I really like that. Like having an audience of people that will call you out, like, that's actually kind of great. Yeah, absolutely. Huh. Yeah, that's cool. I really dig that. And then also, I mean, as scientists, like you and I went to school, we were literally trained to seek out the most accurate information. So like, I hope that people who are like listening to podcasts or whatever kind of take what scientists have to say as like more accurate because we, I mean, if they're a good sign, if they're a good person and they're a good scientist, you know, like, sure, we've literally been trained to find scientific studies and determine if that's like a scientifically sound study. So like, I generally trust scientists. I don't know, like we learned how to do the work. So you guys don't have to, and we're trying to condense all this information. So you don't have to go look up 10 sources to figure out how much to be Ruiz. So, which again, is far more than you think it is. However much you have, however much you think it is, you're wrong. That's, that's really cool. That's, that's really a good way to think about it. I think in really a good way to think about science in the communication of it, for sure. So as we, as we sort of wrap up here, I've got two questions I want to ask you. What do you, what do you wish people knew about your field? What do you wish people knew? Just more like that was the only answer I had, which is not like a little bit of a cop out, but like, I really do. That's great. I wish people were just more connected with like the land and the things that are around them. And I wish people had a better understanding of how connected everything is. Because like, it kills me to see companies destroy habitat to build buildings for factories. And it's like, do you understand, and they, you know, complain about the environmental protection agency and blah, blah, blah, complain about people who are like up in arms about the environment. But it's like, do you know that the building you're making is literally with materials from the earth that you are destroying? Like, it, I don't know why there's just such disconnect between like us and the physical earth that we are like existing from. And you know, wildlife is so important and for so many reasons. I mean, even if you for some reason hate wildlife, but you love plants, like plants also need wildlife, like it's all connected. We all need each other. So I just wish people knew more about like the earth around them. Yeah, I actually love that answer. Just more. Just more. I dig that anything. Okay. And then for the last question that I throw at everyone, if you had a piece of advice for people about whatever, anything, what would it be? Like, what do you, what do you want to send people home with? Very similar to the thing I just said, learn more about the wildlife around you. Fair enough. I have a degree in wildlife biology. I've lived in New Hampshire for most of my life. And I literally this week learned that New Hampshire has two species of lemming. Like what? Yeah, I had no idea. So like, you can still be learning about things around, even if you've lived there your whole life, you can still learn about the wildlife around you. And it's so exciting. I highly encourage people to like check out the things around you. And I also think, which is part of the reason I made the podcast, like, we are afraid of things that we don't understand. So if you find that you're afraid of snakes or bears, learn as much as you can about them from any which platform, whether that be podcasting, books, whatever, just learn as much as you can. And you will feel so much better about going outside. I personally hate spiders. I know it's hard to be like, look up everything about spiders, then you won't be as afraid of them. Like, I get it. It's hard to practice what you've reached. But like, really, when you are better equipped and know more about the thing that you're afraid of, or the thing that you're hesitant about, or you're like, well, I don't want to be killed by bears. So I'm not going to go hiking in the woods. Like, if you know more, you will be less afraid to venture out and connect with the world around you. Yeah, that's, that's great advice. And yeah, learn more, learn more, and don't, don't stop learning. I think that's, that's really good. If they're here, they're probably already doing that. Like they're here because they like to learn. So well, that's a good point. That's a good point. Yeah, I like that. That's good thought too. And I hope that that's true. Like, I like to think that's true for sure. Well, actually, that was a lot of fun. I appreciate you coming to chat with me. I learned a lot. Where can we find you? We're all like plug all your stuff. Oh, okay. So get out alive and animal attack podcast on all the platforms that you would also find playing the apology. Also, Vikram was on an episode within the past few months about deadly points. That was fun. Yeah, it was a great time. I also learned a lot. So check us out at getalipodcast.com. We are going through a huge show change right now. Like I mentioned, Nick is like kind of stepped out. So it's really just me. I'm doing this full time right now. So we're revamping the website getalipodcast.com. So you see some changes there. New logo. Yeah, get a live pod on Instagram where we like posted about the new logo. TikTok get out alive. Facebook get a live podcast where I post like recent stories that are like relevant to the subject matter. We're on Patreon and we also have like a blog on a website and on patreon where you can fall for free and get like relevant things to episodes that I go more in depth into. You can find me personally on Twitter at the angryologist or what is formally known as Twitter that I will not call anything else. No, no, no, because that's yeah, no, never. I refuse. Also, what are you supposed to say? Like I tweeted. Are you supposed to say I X'd? What does that even know? I I can't. No, I refuse. Everyone still says tweeted. Yeah, it's Twitter because it's Twitter. It's not X.com. It is literally still Twitter.com. No, it is. It's so funny. Anyway, yeah. No, I I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm not. I refuse. Yeah. We'll not do it. Yeah, they'll have to kick me off. Take that you on. I think Ashley's advice of just do more is amazing. Learn more. Care more. Go outside more. Be more plugged into the environment. Thanks so much, Ashley, for your wisdom and your sense of humor and just your passion for the outdoors and for nature. Like I said earlier, it's infectious and it's wonderful and you are just the best. Thanks to you, the listener, once again, for being a part of plant anthropology. It means the world to me. Thanks to the tech tech department of plant and soil science for supporting the show. Plant anthropology is a recorded, hosted, produced, whatever other things by me, Vikram Beliga. Our music is by the award-winning composer Nick Scout and all the listening is done by you. So thanks for that. You know, I love you, right? I do. Take care. Be good. Keep being kind to one another. If you have not to date, been kind to one another, maybe give that a shot. It's pretty cool. Keep being very cool plant people and I will talk to you next time. [Music] [BLANK_AUDIO]
