[phone ringing] Tim, do you think about Deathmunch? Death? Um... I'd say no. I don't really think about Deathmunch. Um... Doesn't cross my mind. Why do you ask? Well, our guest today uses this idea of Memento Mori, the Latin for remember that you have to die, as a way to live a better and more fulfilling life. Memento Mori reminds me of my Catholic education and in Ash Wednesday, in the Latin Mass, when I was really young, they would just say Memento Mori, when they're putting the ashes on your forehead. But later, they would use English and they would say, "Remember, man, that you are dust, and to dust, you shall return." Good times, really. [laughing] [laughing] Okay, Kurt, I'm gonna turn the question back to you. Do you think about Deathmunch? I don't know if it's much. It's always lurked... probably somewhere in the recesses of my head. I mean, my dad died when I was 22, and he was only 66 years old. And so I've always viewed life from this perspective that my dad's life got cut short and that my life could just as easily be cut short as well. And so you have to kind of make the most of it and that death is lurking out there. Well, I would say that is right in line with what our conversation is all about today. Yeah. [upbeat music] - Welcome to "Behavior Grooves," the podcast that explores our human condition. I'm Kurt Nelson. - And I'm Tim Houlihan. We talk with researchers and other interesting people to unlock the mysteries of our thinking and our behavior by using a behavioral science lens. - Okay, so Deathmunch, it feels a bit morbid to talk about. - Yes, but Tim, this conversation is anything but... - Exactly, like we had the pleasure, true pleasure to speak with Jodie Wellman about her book. You only die once, how to make it to the end with no regrets. And I have to say the conversation was far from morose, far from morbid, not downtrodden, nothing. It was a fantastic upbeat conversation. And Jodie exudes a very irreverent and almost joyful perspective about using the idea of death to positively make an impact on our lives. - You said it. I mean, this book may be the most fun and insightful book that we've read this year, definitely fun. So for listeners, Jodie has, away with words, very getting into her head space almost and just fun made me laugh out loud a few times and still achieving our gold status, Tim, of many, many, many dog-eared pages and underlying quotes and various different things throughout, so yes. - Yeah, that is the gold standard, absolutely. And Jodie didn't disappoint in person either. She was a wonderful guest. She's a clever writer and she brought a lot of fantastic real world insight on how we can improve our lives by remembering death or grim, as she likes to call him, as we live our lives, yeah. - Yes, yes. So we talked about how measuring out how many Mondays you have left can inspire you to make sure that you just don't let them slip away into La La Land and we need to make the most of them. - Yeah, and why Mondays? Well, you're just gonna have to listen to that. Now, we also talked about the dangers of just focusing on efficiency and productivity and daily life, like the need to prioritize self-awareness and action and taking life a little less seriously through humor and storytelling. - Yeah, and we also talked about the dark side of habits and routines. You know, we talk about how great habits and routines are. Jodie brings in this concept that, hey, they're not always so great. There's a dark side. You can lurk their luke, you know? Anyway, and what near-death experiences can teach us about living our lives to the fullest. - So grovers, we want you to sit back with a cup of dead-eye coffee with three shots of espresso and enjoy our conversation with Jodie Wellman. (upbeat music) Jodie Wellman, welcome to Behavioral Grooves. - Oh, I am so excited to be here. - Oh, we are two, we are two. - So let's just figure out right away, do you prefer coffee or tea? - Oh, coffee. I mean, we really don't have time for tea. Take two. (laughing) - And are you, do you drink the dead-eye? Do you do that three shots of espresso that you mentioned in the book? (laughing) - I wish I was cool enough and brave enough to have that many shots of espresso. - Because I love the name. - I'm gonna invent a new lighter touch coffee drink called like the Gentle Skull or something. - Oh, I was like, maybe instead of dead sleepy-eye. I don't know, just kind of, you know, there. Yeah, three shots of espresso in a cup of coffee. I don't know if I could handle that either. Okay, Jodie, second speed round question. Would you prefer to have dinner with your favorite musician or your favorite actor? - Yeah, I think I would say actor. And I'm trying to decide if I have just disappointed either one of you by answering that, 'cause I've heard you all. - You did, yeah, not me, I don't care. It's either way, there you go. - I'm crushed fallen. - All right, who might do you have a person or somebody in mind? - Yeah, you know, okay, so I'm just, my answer's always gonna be Oprah. Like, I just feel like that's just a default answer, 'cause, you know, I think we should be ostracized from the planet if we don't pick her first. But, so her, and then I'm gonna do a creative twist just 'cause like, he's in a lot of movies. And I know this is gonna be so corny, but so I am. He, like, the Grim Reaper. - Oh! - Like, this is our whole topic. Like, he's like, like, I wanna talk to anybody who's related to or has played death. I want all the insights. - I would be very interested in knowing when was the first time the Grim Reaper was depicted in a movie or some show, right? And how did they depict in the classical robe? No, you know, I know, like, well, you look back at a Christmas tale, right, or what, right? And it's the, the dick and the story. - Oh my gosh. - Yeah. - The Christmas, yeah. - Yeah, I can't remember anything these days. - I was thinking like, Boris Karloff, Vincent Price. I'm, you know, that's kind of where I'm going with that. - I hear I see you. - Yeah. - Okay. Third speed round question, what if you knew, you knew for certain that you were gonna live for a thousand years, what would you change about your life right now? - This is the best question I've been asked. Gosh, I'm gonna start asking. - That's 52,000 Mondays, by the way. Just for me. (laughing) - Thank you. Thank you, speaking my language. What would I change? I would, this is gonna sound like I've got everything figured out, and I sure as shit don't. But I think I would stay the course because I'm already living now like I have a deadline. And in a way, all those extra years and Mondays, you actually illustrated something that I think is problematic for us. It's like, we like the idea. Anatoly France has this quote, "The average man does not know what to do with his life, "yet wants another one which will last forever." - Mm. - You know what I feel a little bit like, I and we are still trying to figure this out. Like, well, we gotta do like all that many more years of delaying my goals and dreams and hopes. No fail, like I'm just gonna keep trying to chip away at what things that matter. - Okay. - Yeah. - I love that there. And Tim, you're gonna appreciate this. Sorry, never do a speed round. - This is speed round. - We don't have a speed round. I don't know why we even called this. Anyway, Jason Isabel has a song, "Vampires." And I don't know if either of you have heard it. - Yeah, it's a great tone. - It talks about if we were vampires and we would live forever. And it's a love song for him and he's talking about, I only have 40 years potentially with you. And that makes every moment that much more, you know, important. And if we were vampires, I wouldn't care. I wouldn't hold your hand. I wouldn't do all these other things. And so it reminded me so much of what you were talking about in your book and kind of, as you said, we tend to think, well, we have so much time and different things. And we kind of put that time limit on it. - Yep. - That changes things, so. - It does. I just wrote that vampire song down. Thank you. - Okay. - Yeah, Jason Isabel, it's a good tune. - All right, last speed round question. Agree or disagree with this statement. Just because your breathing doesn't mean you're living. - Oh, I totally agree with that. - That's good. Could you wrote it? (laughing) - That's a trick question you see. - Yes, it was. We were hoping to love you up there. - I don't know, I've had a change of hearts. No, no, I completely radically agree. We need to tattoo it everywhere on our bodies. Yes. - Yeah. - Because, you know, we go through the motions. And I suspect we'll talk about that together when we're beyond the speed round. Look at me slowing our speed round down. - Yeah. You go right ahead. - We savor. We need to savor every moment, even if it's in a speed round. There we go. (laughing) - Yeah. - Okay, we are talking with Jody Wellman about our new book. You only die once. And we want all the groovers to buy a copy. And we want them to read it. And then we want to all laugh and learn together because it's such a delightful book. So Jody, why is feeling alive so difficult? - You know, I dare to find any adult who is going to a job or has commitments that has gotten into this, talk about a groove. Okay, behavioral groove is like a routine, a pattern, and we get into this autopilot zone. And we think we're so efficient. And okay, we are in like, I highly value efficiency, which is a risk, it's a trap, right? 'Cause it's that look how fast, look how much I'm getting done in my day, but it's not really living necessarily. We're checking boxes. And that feels really like a reassuring, productive boost. But all of a sudden, do you ever do this thing where you're like, what date, like what week is it? Or it's Thursday, but you're like, it's indiscernible from Tuesday, and you feel like you are, here's the words that make me shudder, like going through the motions. - Yeah. - And every now and then, it's punctuated by, ooh, you know, ooh, we went out for a dinner, or ooh, we went to a concert, but then you're really feeling at the end of like a month or a week or a year, like, it's time just passing me by. And I believe that many of us, those of us who have any desire for, you know, love and joy in our lives, so like a vast majority of us, are have that sneaking suspicion and we're kind of afraid of it. So we get into the motions and we're efficient and productive, and then we become these highly functioning zombies. And we come by it honestly, what do you think? - It's interesting, Jody, 'cause I do a journaling practice every night, I've been doing it for a number of years now. And lately though, one of the things that has been missing is I actually skip some days, not on purpose, for whatever reason, and it's very interesting if I go back and try to think like, what did I do three days ago? And sometimes it's really easy to remember because you have those moments. And then other times it's, I don't know what I did on Monday. And that is scary when you think about that. I can't remember, nothing stands out from my Monday or Tuesday that I can remember. And thus, is that really living to your point? - So you're making me think about, you know how when you're on a plane and like our first mission is to never speak to the person beside us, you know? (laughing) Clearly I'm any social- - Open the book, put the headphones on. Yep, there's a lot of language, yeah. - Well, on one plane trip, I got suckered in and I'm so glad I did. This lovely woman, Allie and I got talking and she was very clear. She's like, I just don't want to get to the end of my summer and have nothing to show for it. And it sort of struck me that idea of, 'cause I think sometimes like, I think I'm okay, Kurt, to let like a Monday slide. I'm not a Monday in my world, we got 4,000 of them. Those fuckers have to count. But I think it's okay for like the odd day to get kind of like put into the hopper because otherwise, you know, there's too much stimulation. - Yeah. - But when you look at things, I think in bigger blocks, like the long weekend or like the summer or your vacation where you are off, you're going to, you know, rally to check, you know? Or it could be a very key year of your life. Like these discernible moments, I think, are opportunities for us to stop and say, how do I want to look back on? You know, like for example, the summer of 2024. And those are chances I think to be more deliberate. Like that's what we're talking about is going, do I want to have something to show for it? And to be clear, not show for it, like, that's going to make all my friends jealous because it's going to look so good on Instagram. No, you know, it's not about the outward optics or like, oh, show for, like, oh, it's got to be glitzy or expensive, 'cause no, that's not it either, usually. It's just like making yourself feel like I showed up this summer to live. You know, like I did stuff that actually savored the summer or fall or long weekend or last weekend with the kids before they went away or, you know, fill in the blanks. - You know, you bring up this idea of intentionality and disruption and intentionality sort of live for me as dual themes throughout the book, right? That there's both this need to disrupt but there's also this need to be intentional. And both of those are really hard for human beings. Like, we're not very good at it. And so what's your best tip for sort of snow globe shaking up your life? - Yes. - You know, how do we get to that point where we start to go, okay, this is how I want to remember the summer 24. And then I'm going to do it, it's-- - Do yes, okay, I love where you're going with it because in addition to what I hope is, you know, baked into the book deeply, is this idea about, yes, there's like a becoming aware. It's the awareness first. So I look at it like, you know, a friend of mine who read the book and she's so cute. She actually did a PowerPoint presentation about her take on the book. I've never had, I mean, she, wow, like great a friend. - Good friend. - I know. And she said, she helped me see, she goes, what you've done is you have like awareness and then intention and then action. And that, oh my goodness, it's encapsulating everything. It's like, so this is our life, right? Awareness comes through this pre-mortem. Like, how's your life going? What's working, what's not more importantly? What would you like more of and less of? Like, what's the stuff that makes you feel alive? What's the stuff that would make maybe just go back to our example of this summer feel kind of cool or excellent or bring you joy? Like what, sometimes we just lose the plot about what we even want. Again, because we're on the treadmill or we're looking after other people, damn them. Or we're just, you know, we just don't prioritize ourselves. So first step is to fathom what would I actually want? You know, and many people, they say 72% of Americans at least have a bucket list. But, you know, they're kind of dusty or like having a little bit of like a running tally or running menu of options of, this is the stuff that I like to do that brings me joy, that I could do in a quick 10 minute increment, like getting clear on what would be good. 'Cause sometimes in the absence of having an idea, then you're not really gonna do it. Look, I met with someone yesterday who was saying, I love to, I love music. Hello, Tim. 'Cause I love music and I love concerts. And so I will now do a thing he's making this a new priority this year. He's like, I am planning, I take a band and I will travel to a city I haven't been to and I will go see the band. Yes, you know what I'm talking about, right? Yes, yes. You do that? Oh yeah, I've done it for years. Yes. Like I invented that movie. No, not at all, but yeah, absolutely love that. Right, I mean, I realize I guess fans have been doing this for years. Okay, but this is new. Like you've made this decision, like you were aware and then you made the intention and now you're putting it into practice. Yeah, this is this gentleman doing the concerts in particular. But for the rest of us, it could be, wait a minute, I realized that I really want to go and try more restaurants in my town or like I would love to go and pick up my music routine that I used to do or I wanna get fit 'cause I don't feel energetic. What would that look like? Like tuning in and I, my language of course 'cause we all have to bring it back to death is like diagnosing the dead zones, you know? Like where in your life are you feeling flat line that you might want a little, I don't know, like CPR. And then that's the awareness and then it's about, well, holy crap, like now I actually have a thing in front of me that looks and feels exciting. And now you have the choice point, which is do I hold it as a dream to hope in a cool thing, I might want to schedule or a thing that would be good that I know might widen or deepen my life. And now it's like, okay, now's where the rubber's gonna meet the road 'cause now to be super honest, I think this is where it gets hardest. This 'cause now we're usually afraid to pull the trigger on it. - No, yeah. - Well, you tell the story in your book too about you and Staples kind of, I think going through this very kind of process, you want to share a little bit of that? - Yeah, very happy too. So I was sitting in my corporate job. I've been there for 17 years and, you know, it was supposed to be great. And it really was great until it wasn't like everything in life when, well, it wasn't Hemingway that many things, well, he says bankruptcy. It happened really gradually and then in a hurry. I think our careers can sometimes feel like that. Like you get the itch and it's feeling uncomfortable until it really just feels like it's an agitation. So I was at my desk one day and I was stapling pages together as executives too. And I ran out of Staples. So, okay, I've got a solution for this. I go to the store room and I refill my stapler and it's not a common event. So I was just looking at this row of staplers as I was putting it into my stapler, and I said, I better not be here by the time this row of Staples is done. And, you know, I felt so good. Like I left that store room with a spring in my step 'cause I was like, I'm like, game on. But there's the thing, I did nothing about it. So fast forward a year later, I'm doing my thing again. Just as disenchanted, I mean, I gotta say for the record, like nobody knew I was disenchanted. I looked entirely engaged, but I was just really wanting something different, but I didn't know what to do. I didn't know how to get it. I was afraid to look around. I just wanted to be saved to be super honest. Like I just wanted to be headhunted and plucked out of my malaise and, you know, brought into a new job. But so, yeah, a year later, my stapler ran out and it was like a disgusting moment for me. And so I went and like, it was this sad moment of refilling my stapler again with another row. And it was like this sad, pity voice of like, better not be here by the time I'm stupid and get it again. So, you know, I'm grateful to be super honest that I had that kind of ass dragging lesson about like, oh, honey, like you had to learn that life, a good life doesn't happen to you, usually. You have to make it happen and take risks and do scary things like leave your job or maybe a relationship or your town. So it always doesn't have to be big life changes. It could just be minor stuff, but we're in the driver's seat. That was my takeaway. - I love that story. The book is clearly written in this the most lovely irreverent style, which again, we just found super charming and really fun to read. And so for those people who are sort of natively irreverent, it's gonna hit them with a happiness pie square in the face. Don't have to worry about that. But what about people who are in no pun intended, maybe just deadly serious about how they live their lives? How do you, how does the message get through to them? How do you, how can we help them take life a little less seriously? - You're wording right there. I'm just gonna capture. 'Cause so many times I'll talk about how, oh, for example, we need to count how many Mondays we have left to have that sense of urgency to take life more serious. But it's funny 'cause then some people will correct me when I say that and say, or less seriously, like depending on your issue, I always want to make room for that 'cause I think I'm glad you brought that up. But to actually answer your question. I mean, you're super right, just tonally, you know, not everybody is as interested in irreverence. And, you know, I'm sorry about your luck, but you'll need to go out first, you don't want snark. No, but I hope that in other forums and fashions, like I'll do, okay, here's an example. I do workshops kind of for a living in like keynotes and I work with groups and teams and for like their annual meeting or whatnot and it's motivating and I can't typically, you know, swear on stage and be as much of a goofball as I can be if I get to write my own book. And, you know, so I recognize there that the tone, I still think when we're talking about the idea of our mortality needs to be, like I need to tread carefully. 'Cause it's really one of the most off-putting topics that you could fathom, right? So I do find that making a little bit of fun of it makes it more accessible. Doodling the Grim Reaper makes it even more accessible. Having there just be this a little bit of a almost like, hey, we're in this together. My goal is that even for the hardest nut to crack is that there's just a little bit of a softening there about, okay, yeah, you know what? While I may not appreciate your flippancy, young woman, although no one's called me a young woman in a while, but I'll never, they like can still like it, thank you. Oh, we miss, not ma'am. But it's like, oh yeah, you know what, at least I hear ya. I can accept now. And even the most reluctant person, maybe in the group or listening to your podcast who's gonna calculate their Mondays will be like, I may not like it. I don't like it either, but I'm gonna maybe be grudgingly put my arm around the idea of it. And then maybe that can just be even the subtle nudge that that one crusty curmudgeon needs that day to be able to say, okay, fine. I'm gonna go and register for that Learn to Speak Turkish class that I've been putting off for seven years. - About damn time. - Damn, it's time, get on it. It's only so many Mondays left, which I have to ask this question for my wife because I was talking, I was sharing the book and was talking with her at the dinner table. And I mentioned your Monday exercise. She goes, Mondays, why would I count Mondays? I wanna count Fridays. And I'm like, go on, I don't know. So I want to ask why, and you said it earlier, it's like Mondays need to count, right? When we were talking about that. So what is it about Mondays? Why is it Mondays? And why isn't it Fridays, or the weekend? Or some other more fun day than most people associate with Monday. - Oh my gosh, first of all, I really like your wife. 'Cause yeah, like what's the weekend going? I totally get you. And this was a totally thought out thing because Fridays are already fun and easy and Saturdays and Sundays. And so the goal, partly of this exercise, I'm gonna be super honest and it's not a good PR move, but it's about discomfort, right? Like we're counting backwards our timeline to the end. It's not like how long has your illustrious life been so far? You, it's how much is left. And Mondays are just way more visceral. Like Mondays will illustrate, like especially if you're still in your working years, like me knowing I have 1,814 Mondays left, that for me, I mean, I hope I should knock on the melamine here, but like that for me is the, Mondays are gonna determine whether or not, do I want, am I doing work for example, or am I looking forward to my week in a way that's going to light me up? Or is it a bit of a dragon? Is it making me feel like I'm maybe in the dead zone? So there's just way more of an experience of potentially volatile emotions on a Monday. Fridays are like, yeah, I don't care. Well, more Fridays the better, at least Fridays. It's fun no matter what, I don't care if I have 12 Fridays left. Let's rock them out. It's too easy. I want to jump back, if I could, to this disruption and intentionality part of the discussion. Because you created, you talked about something called the habit continuum. I thought it was a really, really insightful way of looking at habits, because researchers tend to say, well, there's, you know, it doesn't matter if it's a good habit or a bad habit, it's just a habit. But you kind of said, well, you can be pejorative about this. You can be judgmental about it, right? Yeah, I'm a little bit fierce about habits. And I feel strongly about them. And I will soften slightly, you know, after, you know, I'll start hard and then I'll soften slightly. I think habits are the insidious things that rob us of aliveness, and it's our routine. So let's just conflate habits and routines. Like the things we do when we put the blinders on and just go through the emotions in a robot voice like that, like they are the things that a lot of philosophers over the years have said the lines, like it dulls the edges of our lives. And I feel like, I feel a response to that. I feel like I don't want dull dungeons. And the idea that if we can flick the autopilot switch on, that yes, it can help us. And yes, of course, there are some habits and routines that just, we don't always need to be extra alert and savoring every moment of life, you know, like flossing and rinsing and all those things like that. I don't need to be grateful every time and present and delighting in my life when I'm doing my teeth. So that's okay. Like, and we need to switch off sometimes just to handle the cacophony of the chaos of life, right? - Yes. - But when we are back to the idea about like letting life carry us through every day and we're doing the same breakfast and then the same kind of meetings and the same agendas for meetings and then the same rotation of dinners, which is our issue right now. We've got like, you know, six on rotation here, which we need to shake up. And then the same date night or the same Saturday morning thing you do. That's, these are just chances to say like, well, what if we took the snowball of Timmy mentioned, like what if we just shook it up just a touch? And I'm not trying to wreck anyone's life really. It's because I recognize some people that love habits feel defensive about them because they give us the control that we need in an uncontrollable life. I totally getcha and I am a control lover. But what if it just meant like, what if you usually do a certain dinner on Friday? What if you tried a different one? You know, or what if every Saturday you've got a routine where you get up and you do the laundry and you go to the gym and you do whatever. What if you totally shook it up and just went for a walk and did it like a breakfast picnic in the park? And then you did the routine. What if you did take the long way home? You know, so habits are the continuum. It's like, it, it flicks us into the unthinking zone, which is what the benefit of it can be. I'm not thinking, I just know I go to the gym on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. You know what, that sounds like a good healthy habit. And even within the confines of that automaton routine, what if it meant that, okay, but what if Wednesday, you totally just did a different kind of workout? You know, you did like the, I don't know, aerial yoga that everybody's doing. - Yeah, oh, everybody's doing it. Yeah, everybody should get on to, what the hell is aerial yoga? - Ribbons, if they go the ribbons, right, isn't that? Yeah, everybody's doing it. Tim, aren't you? Come on, come on. - Damn. - All right, well, there's, we interviewed Michael Norton, who talked about, this is interesting, 'cause I thought about this one when I was reading the book, Michael Norton talks about rituals. And there's a difference between rituals and habits and routines. And so the same coffee-making habit that you do in the morning, for one person might be a ritual where there, this is, this brings joy to them. It brings, it's like this, I am brewing this cup. I'm savoring the moment of doing this. And I think there are different parts of what you're talking about where those can be beneficial. And I think then what you're talking about though, is that the dead zone habits where you're talking your robotic voice and you're going through it and it isn't. And I like the difference in what, how you're talking about those. And I think it's a really important point for our listeners to discern, is that look at your life and look at where you can, as you said, disrupt some of those that are robotic in nature. So. - Love that. - One of my favorite chapters in the book was chapter five, titled "The Ultimate Wake Up Call Brushes With Death." Not because I want to have a brush with death, but with that on our listeners or anybody here, right? - Just wish. - Yeah, but you bring up these 10 great insights that can help us. We've been talking about savoring, about savoring our life and living that life to the fullest. And when we can do that even without having a near death experience, would love your thought? Do you have a favorite? I know it's like children of those and that, you know? But, or even just a couple that you think about, that you can share with our listeners about, what are these insights from these near death experiences that people have had and what the research shows around that, to help us live a more full life? - Oh, it is one of my favorite topics too. And I am a little bit envious just for the record about people who've had the gift of almost dying and then not dying. I wouldn't want that for myself either and I'd care for what you wish for. But I do agree that they have access to something we don't. Like it's this awareness, this perspective, this is maybe the best word. And I know psychologists call it the roar of awakening and I love that phrase so much. It hurts, you know? I want a roar, don't you want a roar? Like a famous roar and like a medication-free roar of awakening, which again, I think actually, just to underscore this, like awakening is really what I think we're talking about, is like waking up to life in a more conscious way to be like, "Oh gosh, there's so much more to savor while we're here." So the of the benefits that come out of research, and I think I see this just so often in the work I've done even anecdotally with people who have come back from the brink, like a rough diagnosis and now they're in remission, or maybe they, you know, almost drowned and thankfully they're back home. One of the most attractive ones, and this just could be personal 'cause I think I struggle with this one myself, is how they just are so much clearer on what matters, like not just what to prioritize. Like, "Oh, these are my priorities "in my work and life and business," and so on. But more importantly, like they know what to eliminate. They know the clutter in life. It just really no longer matters. The trivial stuff. And it's almost like they just, and I'm painting a broad paintbrush for everybody who's ever had a brush with death. So someone listening might be like, "Well, that didn't happen to me." And that might make sense. - But even the hint of this idea, like, I almost died and I've got it at a hospital. And here I am, and I don't care about your stupid request for me to come. And, you know, I don't know what would be something like, you might be asked to be on some kind of a extra volunteer committee. And you don't want to do it. You don't have time to do it. But the old you would have said yes 'cause of obligation or like a pleasing mentality. And now a lot of people who've emerged post-death brush are like, "Yeah, I know how I have boundaries now." And I'm not going to be a dick about it. I'm not going to, you know, disparage your incredible committee. Just like, you know what, I'd love to, I don't have time. 'Cause I literally, that's the thing, time. I don't have time to do the thing. Whatever that is, I don't want to do. Go visit grandma. I don't have a grandma, so I can say that, not be like, blasphemized. Like, I don't have time to go and do anything that you don't want to do in life that normally many of us just feel. I don't have time to maybe worry about the emails that I'm letting clutter up. Because I just, I'm prioritizing my time differently. I see now that it's maybe more worth it for me to go and spend time brushing my cat. Maybe more than going and doing whatever the thing is that I used to before I almost died, feel obligated to do. - Yeah. One of the terms, thinking of greatest hits and favorites from the book was you have some really just all-star phrases and comments and terms. And "Alivalicious" is one of my favorites. You asked the question, you posed the "Alivalicious" question is, I feel most alive when, like, and I'm curious how connected you are to feeling "Alivalicious" all the time. - Oh, yeah, okay. So I'm gonna be super honest. I work at it every day. And I think it's, I think I'm so attracted to this topic and love talking about it because it's the dose of medicine I need every day. So my inclinations are as follows. And then maybe some of you will relate, and I'd love to ask you two both too, 'cause I'm so curious about your answers. A, about what makes you feel alive and if it's easy for you or not. Like, I am a homebody. I just love being at home. I love the comfy comforts of the couch. Like, give me a blanket and I'll be under it. I love, I'm a bit of an introvert. I mean, I love to yap and gab and put me on the stage and you wouldn't know it, but I just really love to hunker down. And so I, it takes extra effort for me to participate in my life. And I will be also, I value productivity and efficiency. So I'm a prime candidate to just, all of a sudden get stuck in a routine of working, working, working. And then all of a sudden I'm like, I don't know, I feel like I'm in the shining, like I'll work in no play. (laughing) I'm like way less murder, way less. - Good. - Yeah. No access in my home. You all know what I'm talking about? - Yes. - Yes. - Yes. - Sorry if I had to deliver that. - We are of that generation that understands and sees the shining. - Which we were reminded of recently with the passing of Shelley Duvall. - That's right. - Gosh, rest in peace, Shelley. So I, my answer is this is a work, a daily work in progress. So I have all the skulls and all the reminders and I kept my Mondays to be the thing which is, oh, honey bunny, like time's ticking, like you still do the thing. So this is a range of things from do the fun things that you know add life to your life that it's just easier to say no to. It's easier to not accept the invitation for dinner. It's easier to not go and see the matinee or the show or go and do the lessons or classes. But so do it 'cause I know I feel better if I have a steady dose of vitality and meaning, of course. But also my inclination is to maybe feel fear about going after some goals too. I come by it honestly. Like my mom died early in her late 50s and she had just a bunch of dreams that she didn't execute. And so that actually was the impetus for me starting a lot of this was this, oh, I do not want to die with just a bunch of dreams stuck inside me, like taking them to the grave. My dear sweet mom, you know, all the business plans, all the manuscripts and ideas that she didn't act on. So it sounded like a really sad answer, but I will tell you because I prescribe my life, like in a way where I'm really conscious and I do disrupt it on purpose. I will say I've been having my granola cereal a little too many days in a row tomorrow morning. Waffles, like I have to, I have to crunch as we do that. You should all have waffles tomorrow too. - I mean, I, you know what? That doesn't, my wife is going away for the weekend and me and the kids are having waffles. There we go. - Yeah. - We're doing Saturday and Sunday. - Saturday and Sunday. - Saturday and Sunday, waffle, waffle breakfast. Here we go. - Well, I was just curious for you guys. Like, do you feel like, do you need to, I guess be encouraged to live? Does it, does it come easy for you? - I find for myself is that it isn't easy, right? That there, that I get stuck in the what I need to do as opposed to what I want to do. And I do find myself looking and trying to be more purposeful about taking the time to go and have that dinner with friends that it just, I don't have time to find that. And so trying to be more purposeful about it as I've gotten older and just again going through your book and reading in some of the upfront pieces about, you know, what are the activities that you like to do? What, where do you like spending time with which people and various different pieces? And just kind of looking at that going, all right, now I need to put, you know, I take that awareness and move it to an intention and now I have to act upon it, so. - Mm-hmm, I love it. - Well, thanks for asking, Jody. I know that I'm very much aligned with how Kurt answered, that it's easy for me to get stuck in certain routines that aren't necessarily life fulfilling, but they just keep the tractor moving along at a slow pace. And I know that I have been separated from my guitars for a couple of months, almost three months. And because, yeah, so like when I started on this journey of finding a new place to live and finding a new job, I packed up all my guitars with the exception of one and put them in as, you know, gave them to people to play. I don't want them to sit in storage, but I put one in storage 'cause it was just too damn much of a hassle to drag around. Then I had a gig in St. Louis. And so, and I realized, oh my God, my strength in my fingers is deteriorating and my calluses are weakening. And I was like, I cannot be separated from an instrument for two months. It's just too much. That was soul sucking for me. - Oh, I love, I hate that you had, that you're experiencing this and had to, and I also love that it is such a poignant lesson to learn. - Oh, yeah. - That this makes me so undeniably alive. I need it. It's part of you. - And I think it's interesting, Tim, that you talk about that because that was, I would anticipate that you would not have packed. Like if I would have, if you would have asked me, what did I pack and what didn't I pack, your guitars would have been one of those things that I would have said, nope, that is coming with me, at least a couple of them. I know you have multitudes, so there are different pieces there. - How many guitars are there? How many are we talking about? - I'm a little embarrassed to say, but 13. - That to me is like, you're maximizing a hobby. (laughing) Awesome. - Well, I wanted to tie into that, right? So there is this aspect that you talk about in the book about vitality and you now quote here, vitality isn't a fixed disposition. We have the ability to change it. And so I love that because I think it brings out this fact that you talked about at the very beginning of this. It is the element that, hey, a good life doesn't come to us, we need to go out and get it. But how do we change our vitality? How do we go about making sure that we have that sense? - Yeah, well, vitality, I always find helpful 'cause some people go, wait, what? Like, vitality, what is that again? And so the definition that has come up in literature around academic literature is like the positive health of spirit, which I like the sound of, but I still think it's confusing. And it is, I find using lots of descriptors can help. So I think of life, like this is the widening life part with vitality, which is associated with like zest, participating in life, having fun, pleasure. It's what people will traditionally define as happiness. It's like, ah, the experiences, the things that are live in you, it may or may not involve your body like doing something physical. It could just be like, you know what floats your boat could be, yeah, Tim, like going to a music show or it could be like going to a new restaurant in town or traveling road trip, whatever it is. So it's about zest. And the first step in many people's lives, if you wanna expand your vitality. And by the way, my research is very clear and it mimics other people's research. It's that this is the bigger issue, is that people want more vitality in their life as opposed to its opposite spectrum of wellbeing, which is the deepening life with meaning. It's not that we don't need and want more meaning, but it just, many people have identified, they say, well, I might have enough meaning in my life, but I'm a little bored. I need a little more of the fun or I need a little more of the action. So the first step, I think, is eliminating the things that might be deadening you. Sometimes we just, you know, we have things that are dragging us down and like could be the Debbie Downers. Then so that sometimes that's just a conscious effort to back to the idea about people who've had the near death experiences, they find a way and they're not jerks about it necessarily, but many of them find a way to just kind of spend more time with people than live in them and less time conveniently with people that kind of drag them down and we all know who those people are. So that's one of the- - Yes, sorry, Tim. - Yeah. - Yeah, sorry. I'm gonna have to just kind of limit our interaction, man. I'm sorry. - It's been nice knowing you heard. Well, so, Jody, can you just tell us a little bit more about deepening and widening? - Yes. - Because both are important, right? But how does the book and how do you address those things? - Yeah, yeah, the framework, I think, could be helpful to just aid to assess your life right now at any given time and a way then to be able to say, okay, which spectrum do I need to maybe do a little bit more on? So, yeah, the widening of life is about this vitality aspect we're talking about, the Jwada Viv. You know, it's like all the experiences you may or, you know, may not have in life. It's the, in the well-being world, scientifically, like the science of positive psychology, it's called the hedonic aspect of well-being. So, it's the fun stuff, it's good, and we need it. And then its counterbalance would be the deepening life aspect and I think of that as like the y-axis, you know, and that's with meaning. It's got here are the other big heavy words, purpose, connection to other people, maybe doing good versus feeling good is kind of the comparison between the two. It could involve spirituality that matters to some people more than others. It could be using your character strengths, your virtues. And so this is the eudemonic dimension of well-being for those, you know, well-being nerds out there that know and care about that. And both are important, you know, and some of us have predispositions where we want more fun than other people who want more purpose and there's no right or wrong formula. But I think, yeah, yeah. And, you know, I think the back to the awareness and then deciding like, where are you right now? You know, if you were to even take your vitality, the width on a scale of one to 10 and then your meaning on a scale of one to 10, that's just a great starting point to say, okay, is there one where you might want to nudge it up a little bit on the scale? - I loved, yeah. - Oh, I'm sorry. I loved in the book where you were talking about the deepening part of that and you were talking about some of the clients that you work with and various different things and they're struggling with it because they're thinking that I need to cure cancer, I need to do something huge and big and you bring up a really important point that meaning isn't always about those large things. It can be smaller things of, I'm raising a child who is happy and content and I am doing something with my community or even just I'm learning for myself in various different pieces. So I love that part. Can you expand on a little bit on that? - Yeah, I'm glad you asked that because I think meaning and purpose, purpose is one of the words that makes people feel, I think, pressure like that. Am I doing enough and according to society, the answer is always no, so just accept that. - It is usually for most people, it's like a collection of things that make us feel like we are in some way mattering or meaning and it could be like, I'm a really great cat mom, like don't freaking deny it and that's a purpose thing. And we know, we know this is true because if something was to be gone from your life, you would feel a whole not just because of grief and losing it but it's like, there's a purpose there, right? It could be a collection of them. There's someone in a workshop that I just did who he was describing and he's quite a bit older, he's retired and he said, I am finding just so much meaning and purpose in doing, are you doing a full on life review? And it's a really thoughtful exercise. I have one on my website but it's this exercise where like you really go back and you contemplate and you capture the essence of your life, the highs, the lows, the joys, the lessons learned and it is a very contemplative process goal and it's something you can leave for other people beyond you. So that for him is like a legacy building thing and it's helping him to look at his life that feels really meaningful. And for other people, it's just their purpose again could be as I use the example that will always strike me. I use this in the book of a woman who was struggling with was it big enough? And then she landed on something about her purpose was to be the person who lit up a room and made every person she interacted with in a day just feel a little bit better, like brighten their day, lighten their load. So she had a busy office job and she was like coming across a lot of people in the day and she's like, that's my job is to be the ray of sunshine. And like that to me is, I mean, that's doable for a lot of us, not that that needs to be your purpose, but it could also just be something that's a little bit more character driven rather than starting a nonprofit in a third world country. - Now it's a lot more attainable, I think, that's for sure. I want to segue just a bit here by starting with the autopilot assessment, those 52 questions, which by the way, just a comment, the book is full of lovely assessments and tools and quizzes and fill in the blanks and all kinds of things to kind of get you into that acting mode better and more into the doing stuff, I think, really nicely. But one of the questions, question 34 is, I like my usual rotation of music versus, I like to listen to new music regularly. And Ms. Jody Wellman, little miss Jody Wellman. - That one's for the few, really. - How does that apply to you? Which do you, where do you stand on? I like my usual music rotation or I listen to new music regularly. Okay, I'm glad that you're testing me on this one. I'm going to pass this test. Here's how. I'm going to like, I'm going to get like an average grade. I'm not going to get any class. - You don't have to, you don't have to get an A. - Well, you know, you know, keener. - Just show up. - So the olden days was interesting 'cause there was this thing called the radio, remember? And you would listen to like, you'd be like, what song is that? I don't like it, or you'd learn about new music, but now Pandora, Spotify, whatever, Apple music, you're just getting served your same old shit. And actually it's delicious when I'm like 90 cents, rock. Yeah, pop, yeah. And I'm like more to Peshmo, but like at some point, like you got to shake it up so deliberately. I do a very goofy thing, not hard for me to be a goof, but like if we're doing a cuisine, my husband and I just like to cook again 'cause we're home bodies. And if we're doing, if I'm making like tacos, I'm going to find on Apple Radio, like a random Mexican music station. - Yeah. - And I'll play it. And then last week we did, well, it wasn't last week, the week before I did like a Hollywood, Bollywood things. We were making some Indian dinner. So I will try to do it like, that's my cue, is like to stack the novelty on top of things. Like, oh, different cuisine. What could the music be for that? But every now and then what that means for me with shaking up the music is like letting, sledding, not doing the annoying thing in the car. Like we've got, was it Sirius XM radio, whatever the satellite is? - Yeah. - Like, you know the stations and usually you have a visceral response. I hate that station, right? Hate that. No, to be like, you know what? I will let you play this bullshit for this car ride while we go to the grocery store intersection of that bad, or it's interesting. Or I like that I'm listening to something that is just not my thing because it may be also it makes your thing better. Do you guys listen to different music? - Well, it's only 10 minutes to the grocery store. What the hell, you know? - No, it's not. - Which, it's only a couple minutes for the grocery store and my daughter has to control the radio, that you have to connect her phone and put her music on in the car for those two minutes. And I have come across, I actually appreciate Taylor Swift a whole lot more than I ever thought I would. So there you go. - Just tell them there, yeah. - Yeah, okay. So if you were stuck on a desert island for a year, just you, and you get to take two musical artists with you to actually their catalogs, not just the key catalogs. - Yeah. - Everything that they've recorded. - Yeah. - Which two musical artists would come along with you? - Yeah, well, you know, I'd want the range. This is so interesting 'cause I'd want the widening. - Well, no, novelty. - And I'd want the melancholy. You know how like melancholic music is like, you guys know what I'm talking about. It's instrumental. Do you know the stats in fact, by the way, non-sequitur, but on point. Do you know the stats about how we love melancholic music? - No. - There is research, and I'm gonna bundle it up, but I will tell you Susan Kane, she wrote a book called Bittersweet about how we just really love the down parts of life. And she says that on people's playlists, according to research, we listen to the downer tunes, something like 750 times more than we do the upbeat tunes. There's something about music that's like it's so like, we want the melancholic. We wanna, you know, feel the feelings that maybe our ours or the-- - We just like to know that there's other people who are feeling the shit a lot deeper than we are. - I think you're right. I think it is a reflection of like the human condition. Yeah. Okay, so to answer your question. Oh, this is so painful, and I'm gonna take away you. I'm only balancing, I'm only liking you because you asked that good question earlier that I liked, and this is now what I hate. And I can't choose like a genre. You have to choose an artist. - No, don't, don't, don't push out. - Don't push out. Okay, fine. - Just come on, you can do it. - All right, for the width and the, well, no, there's no one calling there. Doesn't matter, okay. I'm going old school. I'm gonna go the cure. - Yeah. - And I'm gonna go Dave Matthew's band. - Oh, so, nice variety. Good, but I actually like the cure because it was your thing about the Melonkine. The Cure, one of my favorite albums is mixed up, where it is literally there's a Melonkali song and an upbeat song. Like they're almost every other one on that piece. And, I mean, it's so, Robert Smith is such a great, you know, he sings some of the best downer songs you can ever have. And yet he has happy green cars or whatever that song is, right? You know, thank God it's Friday, you know. - Yes. - Do you know what my husband calls it? Slit your wrist music. (laughing) - There are some, there are some of those songs within that, within that mix. - The Smiths, like, hello, I actually would debate, maybe I would do the Smiths, same thing. Fun and happy, end your life. If you had to cry live, it would be really interesting. (laughing) - Oh man, that just really threw me, but you're right. Yeah, okay, well, with that, Jody, we are so grateful to have you as a guest. And thank you for being with us on Behavioral Groups today. - Thank you guys, time is well spent with you too. (upbeat music) - Welcome to our Grooving session, where Tim and I share ideas on what we learned from our discussion with Jody, have a free-flowing conversation and groove on whatever else comes into our dead brains. Oh, that was the easiest one I've had in a long time. Yeah, that was super easy, but our brains aren't dead. (laughing) We, our brains are alive. They are brimming with activity. - Dead-thinking brains? (laughing) - I don't know, you're right, we are alive. And this is the part that I love about Jody. This concept of let's take this big scary idea of death that we try to avoid, that scares the live and begeters out of many of us and use it as a way to motivate and inspire us to live more intentional, more fulfilling, more vitality-filled, purposeful lives. And I think it's just wonderful the way that she does it and takes this big scary thing and makes it not so scary. - Yeah, so in the introduction we brought up, like do we think about death? And is it a big scary thing for you? - You know, I don't know if it's a big scary thing. So I don't know if we've talked about this on the show, but for listeners, so I recently was diagnosed with cancer and had surgery to remove that cancer as prostate cancer. So luckily they caught it very early. So men out there who are in their 40s, 50s, 60s, make sure you get your PSA tested 'cause if prostate cancer is caught early, it's pretty treatable. It's one of the better cancers to get if you want to get a cancer. And so- - It was still major surgery. - Still major surgery, major, different things. But even just the fact I knew that it was pretty operatable and the likelihood would be good. I still don't know if I'm cancer free yet. We'll go into get those labs done in a week or so. But with that, there was this element of thinking about your own mortality of all right, this is cancer. This is something that can kill me. If this doesn't go well or if this had spread, again, at the beginning when the diagnosis first happened, there was some, I was actually working away from home and being kind of alone in a hotel room was, yeah, there was a lot of thinking about what that meant and the fact that our lives are not endless, that we don't get this opportunity to live for more than some people, 50 years, 60 years, 70 years, wherever that is. And it kind of puts a perspective on life and yeah, what have we done? I was thinking like, what have I done in my life? What would be the legacy that I leave? And that's to the point that Jody makes is there's an aspect of that that can spur you to make some changes. - Absolutely, actually, in some ways, that's great. I mean, this supports Jody's thesis, right? That you can lead a better life. It can be beneficial to you to change your relationship with Grimm as she calls him, right? The Grimm Reaper, right? This actually could work to your advantage and I have to admit that the conversation with Jody also kind of got me thinking, maybe I'm not focused on Grimm enough. Maybe I'm a little too remote. Like I've avoided it not intentionally but subconsciously thinking and talking about it. - Well, I think that's part of what she's saying is that we need to bring this idea of death more into our lives so that we do constantly remind ourselves that I only have so many more Mondays left. I only have this, that my life is not extended on forever. We do not live like vampires and Jason Isbell's thing. And that because of that, we have to focus on our loved ones more, that we have to appreciate those sunsets. Not have to, that we have the opportunity to focus in on those more important things in life overall. So I think that's really it. And the book and our conversation with Jody, there were just a ton of lessons, right? In the book, she talks about this thing that we didn't talk about here but this idea that Memento Mori, this idea of remembering that there is death, can also lead to the other Latin thing and I'm gonna mispronounce this. - Memento Vivere. - Memento Vivere, remembering that we must live. - Yes, yes. - And that is just amazing, you know? And what I love about this is this is something that we can just start incorporating into our lives, that we can bring in this idea of, you know, thinking about death, our own death and others and how that makes the life that we live is that much more special, so. - Yeah, I also found that in this idea of sort of confronting how death can be scary, was this idea that we need to be aware. Like, and this is, I think this is part of our theme and when we think about how you find your groove, awareness is a really key part of it. Now, granted, we're gonna, I'm gonna quote Lori Santos here and that knowing is not even half the battle but it's not a bad start. It's not a bad way to get started with awareness, just as some of the questionnaires in Jody's book are really great at, maybe they're not like, I don't know, they're not bone chilling, you know? But they really got me thinking about, oh wait a minute, how am I spending my time? - Right. - Just start to be aware of how I'm spending my time, what am I choosing to do, what are the habits? You know, what are the deadening habits that I'm sleepwalking through life with? It was good. - Well, and also just this being aware of what brings you joy, what brings purpose to your life? What are those facets that you want to enjoy more of? You know, for me, it's ice cream, right? I want more ice cream in my life, right? Is ice cream a big P or a little P purpose? (laughing) I just want to go. - I don't know, it makes a big B in my belly. I don't know if that's part of it, but yeah, there's, it is interesting though. And I think one of the things that we know, right, from our work on finding your groove in different things is that self-aware part is actually really difficult to do. And you have to set your life up so that you do stop and take some awareness of how you're feeling, what you're doing, what is going on, the savoring of that breakfast omelette that you are just woofing down. No, slow down, be self-aware about this. And a variety of those factors. So how can you set up those triggers that will go, oh, I need to stop for a second and set something up. And so listeners, it's like, try to, like every day, figure out some triggers that when this happens, I am going to just do breathing exercise and be aware of how I'm feeling and what's important to me and where the rest of the day needs to go. So yeah, I want to come back to that in just a minute because I'm thinking about intentionality and I want to get to that in just a minute. But first I want to ask you about the near-death experiences stuff. - Oh, one of my favorite chapters in the book and we talked about it with Jody. But this I thought had some of the most, just simple things that we need to remember that are these elements that people, insights basically from those who, as Jody says, those who have seen the literal and proverbial light, right? Again, the way that she words this is fantastic. But number one is reshuffling priorities. Number two is this idea of elevated gratitude for life. Three is dismissing expectations. Four is deeper immersion in life. Five, embracing the mundane. Six is rekindling connections. Seven, maximizing mindfulness. Eight is creating meaning and growth. Nine is this idea of a spiritual awakening and 10 is reburthing aliveness. Now we can't talk about all of these. And Jody kind of-- - We could. - We could. - We could. - We could, it would go on forever. But I've actually used, I've talked about this, this chapter with both my wife and clients and various other people to really get them to think about different things and for myself as well. But Jody already talked about rekindling or reshuffling priorities. This idea that, hey, we need to think about what's really important in our lives. And as she states in the book, when a person looks death in the eye there to do list and day to day bullshit becomes less and less consequential and they begin to hyper focus on what really matters. Like what? - Yeah. - Like the people in their lives actually worth hanging out with, interests that captivate their souls, the work that makes them feel fulfilled and any of the opportunities that intoxicate them with possibility. Oh my gosh, I mean, if we could just all do that in and of itself? - Yeah. - Rockstar, that's a big, you'd talk about finding your groove, you would be in your groove if you could be doing that. And I lost that she, she emphasizes this idea of saying yes to things, it's like, say yes, a little bit more than you're saying no. Like move more towards that, I'm gonna give that a try, I'm gonna, but she doesn't ignore the idea that we have responsibilities. - Right, right, that we have important things to do that are, you know, and sometimes those responsibilities can give our lives a larger meeting. So it's not just about like going off and being, you know, a complete, you know, bozo and not thinking about how you're using your time, be intentional about it, be aware of what, how you're spending your time now and be aware of what it could be if you were to say yes to some other things, if you were to reshuffle those priorities. - Well, and there's a part about that, but living above like that email to your boss, you don't, you know, your boss sent it to you at 10 p.m. tonight, you don't have to respond to it, right? In the big scheme of things, like putting things in their proper places and there's this element of living above life and not that, I mean, I remember coming back from when I determined that I was gonna start the lantern group and I had made the choice and I came back back to, you know, where we used to work, B-I-W and I kind of had this feeling like I was floating above and I would see all these people rushing around crazy about, you know, doing this or that, then it would just felt like, it's, why are you, why are you getting so worked up over this mundane trivial stuff? And I think that's this feeling that we need to do. So I do wanna catch on a couple more of these though, besides just this one. So come some of these that make, really resonate with me is elevated gratitude for life. - Yeah. - And here's, I'm gonna quote from the book again, because I think this is, she writes this so wonderfully, quote, "When was the last time you felt thankful "to have a heartbeat, to have legs strong enough "to walk up and down the grocery store aisles "and to have the gift of being here?" - Yeah. - I mean, you know, think about just the sheer gratitude for being alive that we dismiss. We look at, oh, I have all this shit piling up on me or I feel this and it, my life could be this, it could be that, I'm missing out on X, I'm, you know, I haven't achieved Y and we don't appreciate the mere fact that life is a gift. - Yeah, I think that she is particularly adept at paying attention to what's happening in the world. And I think that she's particularly well-suited for elevating gratitude for life, but that doesn't mean that we can't do that either. It doesn't mean that if you don't have that natural sensitivity that you can't just get out and just breathe and just take in the physical world around you, if vision occupies 30% of our brain, let your eyes start. You don't have to smell or be, you know, do any other sense foraging, just start with your eyes and just say, what do I see? My gosh, look at how beautiful the green in the trees are today because it rained yesterday. - Yeah, start with your eyes, but then use your sense of touch and feel, you know, again, sense foraging the episode that we did with drawing a blank on their names, but we'll put it into the show notes and we can just take note of those things and be grateful for them. I think it's amazing. The other piece, Tim, that I really loved, there's a couple of these that I love them all, but embracing the mundane. How many times have we talked about this with finding your groove, right? This idea that, you know, everyday stuff, it goes back to this idea of this gratitude for life, right? Even the mundane stuff is a gift, this idea that, you know what? There's an ordinariness of life that sometimes we go, oh man, I wish I had more, I wish I had that, and it's like, no, no. I mean, the mere fact that I wake up in the morning and I do the, you know, simple things of getting up and brushing your teeth, brushing my teeth, it's like, you know what? There's something about that. That is actually kind of fun. Well, I don't know fun, but I mean, but there's something about that that you can appreciate. The conversations with your kids that just don't go anywhere, but it's just there, you have it over dinner and you're talking, I don't know, you know, what did they do? If I had a game today, okay, well, it was a game. Oh, it was this, it was, oh, that's cool. And you might forget it two days from now, but you know what? That's okay. - Yeah, yeah, can I do one more? I just like to talk about rekindle connections for just a minute, because, and I think, I don't remember what number it is, but when she talks about rekindle, I mean, it reminds me of regret Dan Pink's book, which is fantastic, there's a great story about rekindling connections there, but Bijote writes about rekindling connections in her book. She says, "Approaching death highlights all that we have to lose, as well as who we have to lose." And like that, like if we start thinking about, well, wait a minute, if I could die tomorrow, everyone else in my life could die tomorrow. And how many, how many things, you know, I have brothers with very serious disease states, and I think about them, and I think about, okay, so how many more thanksgiving is I'm gonna have with these guys? How many more holidays of any kind? How many more Fourth of July's? How many more summers, you know, meals on the patio? And they live, you know, 500 miles from me, but it starts to, just that awareness makes me think about, making sure that those connections don't die, as well as good friends that I've had for a long time, that I want to stay in touch with. - No, I don't want my moving around the country to be a reason to not stay in touch with people. - Well-- - And kindling connections is a really important thing. - And just this idea that we turn, you know, I'm too busy, I'm too busy to reach out, I'm too busy to, you know, oh, they invited me out to the, you know, the twins game, and it's like, oh, it's late, I'm tired, you know what, just do those things, right? - Yeah, say yes. - Yes. - Say yes, and this idea of, you know, so here, listeners, right now, pause the after, after you listen to me, pause the recording, go to your phone, look up your connections, find somebody, a friend, a acquaintance, a sibling, somebody in your life that you haven't talked to recently, and just send them a text, say, I'm thinking of you. - Yes. - Would love to find some time to connect. - Yes. - Go do that, right? Pause and go do that. (upbeat music) - Okay, now we're back. (laughing) - And if you didn't pause, do it now. - Yeah. I want to move on to, we talked about intentionality, and I think that this couples with awareness in the idea of making your life deeper and wider, which is Jody's theme, I love this idea, not just deeper, not just wider, but both. - Yeah. - And I think that a lot of that comes certainly through awareness, but intentionality. You have to be willing to wake up and go into your day and look at the world with a sense of intentionality that helps us find our groove, that helps us live a more joyful and more productive life when we have that little bit of, even if it's, okay, I'm getting in the car, I'm driving to work, I'm going to get on the train, I'm going to commute to work. How am I going to make this? How is my commute going to be? What am I going to make of it? - Yeah. And there's an aspect of this that I think too often people think about one or the other, right? I am going to, I need to go out and have more fun and have more adventures, I need to go, take that trip to Bali, I need to go climb whatever mountain, I need to go do this and have all these experiences to live my life fully, or vice versa, I need to go and make sure that I am living my purpose and that I am changing the world and I'm doing this or that. And what Jodie brings is this really nice perspective that says yes and yes, it is not one or the other. If you live too much in one of those areas, too much of this vitality of wide and experiences and this hedonic part of our lives, then we lack this meaning. And if we live too far into the purpose of the eudomonic, how do I pronounce it? - Eudomonic, yeah. - Eudomonic aspect of our lives. Then we're missing out on these other aspects. And so there's this wonderful balancing act that we need to do. And the other thing, the piece that I always, kind of, and we've talked about this before, is purpose doesn't always have to be, I'm finding a cure for cancer. Purpose can be, as Jodie said, I bring joy into people's lives that I interact with. I find the aspect of teaching my kids how to be good human beings, that's P, right? That's a little P or a big P, but yeah. - Either one, ice cream, little P, but that's okay. - Big B, very good, big delish. - We should wrap it up. - Yeah, we should wrap it up, so. - With that idea, if you have enjoyed our conversation with Jodie, in fact, if you enjoy any of our guest conversations, we just want to encourage you to buy their books. - Yes. - You know, go out and support them. Let them know that, you know what, first of all, there's more to gain, and it sort of just shows them that, you know what, this is all worth it. Like having these conversations, so that you can consume this content for free is really worth going out and spending a few bucks on their work, because it's really, really good work. So I just wanna say that. And if you did like this conversation, and after you buy their book, or maybe before you buy their book, you might also wanna share it with others in your network of connections that you are going to text and say, "Hey, I've been thinking about you because I just listened to this great podcast called Behavioral Grooves, and you should listen to it." And by the way, let's get together, right? So. - Share the love. - Share the love, so. With that folks, take this idea of Memento Mori and remembering that death is out there to provide you with some really great insights to find your group this week. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)
