Being a growth-minded leader can shift your association into a culture that is both value-driven and authentic.
In today’s episode we’re honored to talk with Tracy Folkes Hanson, CAE, President & CEO of CSAE. Join us as we dive into what it means to embrace a growth mindset as our host, Christine Shaw, discusses with Tracy the significance of mentorship, including reverse mentorship, and how aspiring leaders can benefit from surrounding themselves with diverse teams. Tracy highlights the evolving nature of member engagement and the imperative for associations to remain member-centric and innovative.
Tracy also emphasizes the power of listening, community values, and giving back as the cornerstones of effective leadership. Her advice for rising executives will inspire you to lead with grace, understand your strengths, and use your platform to uplift others.
You’ll learn:
- How to drive corporate culture with vision and strategy.
- The impact personal core values have on the workplace.
- How having a growth mindset influences innovation.
- Why it’s important to be community-focused.
About the guest:
A visionary thought leader, Tracy Folkes Hanson, CAE, is known for her success in developing and driving corporate culture, collaboration, and strategy. Tracy joined CSAE as President & CEO in July 2017. Prior to joining CSAE, she held senior positions for numerous leading brands both in the private and non-profit sectors, including the Ontario Chamber of Commerce, MasterCard International, Kinark Child & Family Services, and The Arthritis Society. A small stint in politics, Tracy was elected to Whitby Town Council in 2010 as North Ward Councillor. She continues to be an active volunteer and community leader.
Resources:
Recommended reading: We Are All The Same Age Now
Explore more on Leadership.
Visit: https://www.naylor.com/
Connect with CSAE & Tracy Folkes Hanson:
LinkedIn: @csae, @tracyfolkeshanson
X: @csaeconnect, @tracyFHanson
Facebook: @associationexecutives
Visit: https://csae.com/
Connect with us:
LinkedIn: @NaylorAssociationSolutions
Christine Shaw: christine.shaw@naylor.com
*Please rate us and leave us your thoughts and comments on Apple Podcasts, we’d love to hear from you!
I think growth is at the heart of everything because there's growth in retention, there's growth in recruitment, and it's not just about bringing in new members. You know, it's easy to bring in new members, much harder to keep them. Hi, I'm Christine Shaw, CEO and president of Naylor Association Solutions, and I'm your host of the Association Advisor podcast. We'll learn from successful Association executives, partners, and clients on Haddock Road membership engagement and non-dos revenue to create a thriving, prosperous, and value-driven association. I invite you to join me in keeping informed and, most importantly, keeping your association profitable. Our goal is to leave you feeling inspired, more confident, and more knowledgeable. This is the Association Advisor podcast. Hi, and welcome back to the Association Advisor podcast. Brought to you by Naylor Association Solutions. I'm your host Christine Shaw. In today's episode, we'll be exploring what it means to be a great leader, the impact that having a strong sense of personal core values has on the workplace, and how having a growth mindset will keep your association innovative and focused on community. Joining me today is Tracy Folks-Hanson, the president and CEO of the Canadian Society of Association executives. Tracy is a visionary thought leader, and she is known for her success in developing and driving corporate culture, collaboration, and strategy. She is also well versed in the art of leadership, communication, and change management. I know this is going to be an inspiring and vibrant conversation, so let's get started. Well, as I said, we're so excited about this episode, so let's give a big welcome to Tracy. Tracy, thank you so much for being here today. Welcome to the show. Thanks, Christine. Thank you very much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Excellent. Well, let's start by giving the listeners a little bit more about you and your journey towards becoming a CEO of an association. Sure. The road has not been linear by any shakes, and I think that that is one of the things that makes my journey for me anyway somewhat interesting. I started my career in marketing and communications in advertising. I cut my teeth in at agencies, and then I switched to the client side, and the client at the time happened to be financial services, so I spent a lot of my career in the for-profit sector in financial services. Most of that time was with MasterCard International as their vice president of marketing and communications stakeholder relations, so I always say that's where I grew up. I had an opportunity to switch back to my not-for-profit roots, which is really where I started sort of halfway through my career at this point or more than halfway now. And it was just really a time where I felt that it was right to make the shift, and I was able to do so. Thankfully, I was fortunate enough to be able to do so. I often quote Kathy Black by saying that I spent the first half of my career chasing success and the second half chasing significance, so. I love that saying. Well, just real quickly, we have something in common then because not only did I start my career in the ad agency world, but I also worked in financial services, so how about that? Yeah, so let's talk about a little bit of your community values that you've developed as part of your upbringing and your career pillar, so we want to talk about that and the importance of giving back, and I also learned that you served in local politics on your town council for three years. I did, so I would be totally remiss and any of your listeners who know me would be like she didn't mention where she's from. I'm from rural Ontario. I grew up in a small town. I grew up in a town that had 1,100 people in it. My parents were very involved in the community. As a result of that, my siblings and I were involved in the community. I grew up with that sense of giving back, paying forward, being more of a citizen than a consumer of the world, and so I really, I try to live my life in that way, and look, I can't separate my professional life and my personal life. I'm one person. They're both very much a big part of who I am. Those early years were really about learning how to be part of a community. I hope that I've instilled that in my own children. They're both volunteers as well. My husband and I are still very much involved in our own community. I think a lesson that I learned from my parents that I carry through with me is if I didn't like something, then my parents would always challenge and say, then you can change it. You have the ability to change things in your world and in your sphere and if you don't, then you have no right to complain about it. You just go forward and live with whatever so you can accept or you can try to bring about change. That's largely positive change. That was always about making the world a better place. I think that was not only instilled in me but is very much part of who I am. Well, I think your parents served you well with that advice. Kudos to them. Let's talk about how that shaped your leadership experience and style now as president and CEO of the CSA. It comes with me wherever I go. It's just part of who I am. Setting our values at CSA was really important not only for the organization but for the team of the organization, for the board, the leaders of the organization. When we went through that process several years ago, it was really about, I always look for places that align to my own personal values. If there's a misalignment there, and I had a mentor tell me that years ago, that if there's a misalignment on what it is that you're doing and what you believe in, then it becomes really challenging to feel less sense of belonging and a sense of ownership and a sense of pride. So our values at CSA resonate very clearly with my own inclusion and diversity and overall sense of being kind, honesty and integrity, and probably my most favorite of the CSA values but also resonates really much with me as collaboration because I'm one individual at a table. But when there are a lot of different minds at the table, that's what leadership to me means. It's about recognizing what I can bring and also embracing what comes to the table as well. So that's been a big part of my journey, and that's a big part of my leadership style too. The other piece, it's all about being your true authentic self. So if you can be who you really are, that's the best place to come from. There's that great quote, do what you love and love what you do or vice versa, however you say it. But I think that's a big part of where I come from and how I tackle the whole leadership approach. Tracy, thank you for that. And I think what was important about what you just said is a few things is you can't really separate yourself from work. I think so many I feel the need to try, but when you allow them to be collaborative because you're one person, I think it allows your core values to show up in your leadership, which is great. And the other thing I loved what you said is you had a mentor. And I think it's so important to have mentorship as well as sponsorship in a career. So that's amazing. I would love to talk a little bit about the CSAE and the center of your goals for the association and how you keep these efforts connected to the why. So I think again, I always go back to our values. We have a vision, we have a mission, we're working on a new member value proposition statement, which is all of those really truly fundamental things that you need. But the bedrock of the foundation or the bedrock for the team are our values. And we use them as guideposts always. So it's sort of the filtered. And when something's in Congress or in contrary or a contravention to those things, we just don't trade off on our values. I think that for CSAE, for the team, for the members, for our volunteers, for everybody involved in the association, we look at it through the lens of providing value to our members. That's fundamentally, for our values or what we believe in and how we do it, then we make sure that our members really realize the value on their investment or on their membership. I guess in the corporate world, we would say return on investment. I think in the not-for-profit world, it's more value for your investment. What are you getting? Because it's a nuanced, ever so slightly. But important. Absolutely important. For us, it's really about being member-centric. It's really about understanding what our membership wants, what our membership needs. More importantly, needs. And sometimes we don't know what we need. We think we would know what we want, but we don't always know what we need. A lot of that is listening and tuning into what our members are saying from all different perspectives, not just through survey, not just through dialogue, but also through other channels that we communicate with our members or that our members have an opportunity to engage on and exchange with associations, connect, or the marketplace, or even when they're at an event. That whole piece around value for membership is really critical for CSAE in terms of how we build and how we develop programming products and offerings at CSA. But I love how you talked about the importance of listening to your membership, and it sounds like you have several ways in which you do that. So surveys, just probably annual meetings, things like that. Any other suggestions you could give to other association executives about best practices around that? Oddly enough, one of the best practices is just making yourself available. And inviting the members in, we're an association, we're a member-based association. The members actually own the association. I'm in the fortunate position along with the team to steward the association on behalf of those members. Making yourself available, making sure the team is available, making sure that there is a willingness and a receptiveness to listening and hearing what our members have to say. Because it's not always perfect. We don't get everything right for human beings. We'll try anything once. So if a member says they want this, we're willing to try it. It's also taking what they're telling us and building on what we can build based on what our members are telling us. So I think best practices are taking a look at how often do you engage with your members? How often are you soliciting them for information? And using other ways, many other ways, rather than just a traditional survey, because we're all a little bit surveyed out. I think there are a lot of really innovative ways. Polls will do it. You can ask one question on a poll and you can get some pretty directive information, things like that. Yeah, no, that's great. Because I always say, if you're in doubt, ask your audience. Usually people are willing to express their opinions in a productive way. So I love that you stitched that into how you operate at CSA because it is truly important. Any noticeable trends you've seen, especially coming out of COVID and now that we're back to a new normal, any trends or needs changing in the association world that are notable? Yes. We recently conducted with the help of Gerald Graham from Ram Research and Membership Trends Report. The Trends Report has been really valuable for our members. It's also been for associations. That's what the information was pulled together for, but somewhat selfishly, I also use it for the association that I run, which happens to be CSA-E. And there are a lot of different trends that we have to continue to be aware of. We have to continue to sort of look to how are people growing? What are the things that our members are looking for? And I would say, member engagement comes to the top. People will often say things like, if we're looking at trends or if we're looking at challenges, people will say, well, the economy is a real challenge right now. Of course, it is. But I don't control it. Neither do you. Neither do any of our associations. We have to manage through it. And it's that engagement piece, that connectedness that members feel to the association, which I think is the reason why they join. And that's a trend that most associations are starting to lean into. It is certainly a question that I get often. Growth is one of those things that we're all looking at. It keeps us up at night because it's growth from a revenue sustainability perspective, but it's also growth from the more members you have or the right members that you have, then those are the folks that stay with you. So I think that any way that we can serve our members in the way that they need us to serve them, they'll engage because they need something. They've got a problem and you have a solution. In our case at CSAE, we're fortunate that we've got the accreditation or the certification of the CAE, the Certified Association Executive, which is sort of a gold star, the pinnacle, for association professionals. We've got an abundance of knowledge and resources that are credible and reliable. And that's a big piece of making sure that the information that you're imparting is sound because associations look for information all the time and also recognizing the levels in your organization. So one of the things that we've been working on over the last few years, I think a lot of people have been, is an EDI, which is trending. Although I think it's less of a trend and much more of a requirement is EDI work. So we have at CSAE, we with the board developed an EDI action plan, and there is now an EDI advisory at CSAE, and we've really leaned into making sure that we are a more inclusive organization. And a lot of that work, you know, when I think about it, when I think about membership growth, the more inclusive you are, the more people want to belong because they find themselves in the organization and they find their people and they find the people that they need to connect with, they find the resources that they need. I think that's a huge trend in terms of that's an example of something that you can do, but I think the trend of that connectedness and wanting to be a part of. Yeah, that is so important. You know, one of your peers, Michelle Mason from the ASAE, that's a lot of the pillars of how they operate there too. And you see how important that is not just in today's members, but in future, the next generation pulling them in and creating that space and having that inclusive environment and collaboration is so important. The one thing, you know, I don't know if you've noticed this, but you use the word growth a lot, which is really important for a CEO in your position is having that growth mindset. And I believe, but I'm going to ask you, is it that growth mindset that really forces you to pay attention to your members directly, looking at this feedback, the member engagement piece of it, do those two play a direct role with each other? I think growth is at the heart of everything, because there's growth in retention, there's growth in recruitment. And it's not just about bringing in new members, you know, it's easy to bring in new members, much harder to keep them. So it's that balance around the engagement piece. And again, that connected piece that is really important. It's that focus around, again, I'm going to use the word member centric. It is that piece around why are members coming to you? What do they need from you? And making sure that there's a match there and that they understand that match. I think that growth mindset is fundamentally a part of that. I would challenge and say that our mindset is much more an engagement mindset. How do we engage? How do we make sure that our members are engaging with their association in the way that makes sense for them? And again, it goes back to developing programming, developing offerings and services that make sense for the member. And we look at all of that through the member lens, right? All of the programming is done through that piece of value for membership. And speaking of growth and member engagement, an important part of that is your strategy around non-dos revenue. So I'd love to share how you develop your strategies to generate non-dos revenue and what that looks like. I feel that we're incredibly fortunate at CSAE to have some really formidable and fabulous business partners and business members. So we have two categories in our bylaws, our association executives and our business members. And we work really well with our business partners. What's at the root of that though, again, is listening to what it is that they need. So I've often said, most of our programming is targeted to our association executives or association professionals that our mission and our mandate is all focused on association professionals. Without them, we don't exist. So and then without them, neither do our business partners. So understanding what our business partners have to offer and as association leaders, we all need support. We need consultants on governance. We need to build strategy. We need communications expertise. We bring a lot to the table as association professionals. Often, we need to go out and check in with actual experts. We need to host meetings and events in certain places and we need to travel to certain places. So all of that pool of business partners is really important. Understanding what it is that they're trying to do and creating the intersection between association professionals and our business partners is at the heart of developing a solid partnership and sponsorship relationship. So the whole idea is that the business needs to get something, the association executives need something and CSA can be the conduit. We have a thriving online community called associations connect. We've had it for the last six years. It's been absolutely fantastic. We just recently introduced what we call the association marketplace. And the marketplace is again, replicates that online community where association executives can go in. It's like an online but in real time buyer's guide. So our business partners, they can share valuable information or knowledge that they have. So if it's an insurance offering, they can talk about the benefit of being covered and having all of the things that you need. And association executives can go in and find the resources that they need. It's quite interactive. It's quite progressive and forward thinking. It doesn't eliminate the need for a trade show, which we do every year in Ottawa. But it certainly augments and supports that interaction and that intersecting of where do I go as an association leader to get the information or to get the product or the service that I need from our business partners. So Tracy, I'd like to get your perspective on technology. AI in particular is having its moment. We cannot start a day or end a day without talking about AI, seeing AI, listening to the impact. So as a leader, how are you navigating both the opportunities as well as the challenges that this new technology is presenting? Technology now changes every 20 minutes. And AI is certainly having a moment. And I think it will for a long time. And it's not just now, it's been around for quite a while. So I want to start by saying technology is not new. The concept of technology is not new. For my parents, technology was a multi-line telephone, right? Like the old black phones with the little buttons on the bottom, you can put someone a hole, pick up another line. That was technology at some point in time. For me, it was fax an email. And for my kids, they have the world at their fingertips and have, right, that's just the way they live. So I think the important thing, and I'll circle back to AI specifically, I think the important thing is everything's always evolving. And technology is an enabler or an enhancer to the things that we do. It's a tool. It should be used as a tool. It's not something to be feared. And it's not something that we should be afraid of. I think it's something that we should embrace and be curious about. That said, something goes wrong on my laptop. I'm yelling for everybody else to fix it. I don't need to know how it works. I need to know how I can make it work to enhance the lives of the team that I work with and the association that I work for. So that's sort of my philosophy around technology. I also think that as we go forward, the next generation and the next generation of association leaders work very differently than I did when I started my career. And I try to keep up from a tech perspective. I think the next gen though, when I think about my own kids and a good chunk of my team as well, and a lot of my membership, they expect seamless, immediate, intuitive, you know, everything I said earlier, they're going to expect their association. They're going to be part of an association. They're going to want their association to do the same in their own digital platforms. So I think that's important as leaders that we understand how we can embrace and use technology. AI is one of the new things on the horizon, not on the horizon. It's one of the new things that's here right now. It's a great way to look at it because I agree. I mean, being a CEO myself, you know, it's one of the things we have to tackle. But if you think of it as the enabler and not the challenge you can get on board with embracing it, I will say recent stat I saw was that AI is the quickest adopted technology in the history of technology adoption. So if you think back to all the evolutions of technology, this is the one that's come at us the quickest in terms of adoption. And I think when it comes to AI, one of the most important things is looking at every piece of technology or everything that we do, it can be used in a really positive way. And maybe not so positive. And it's incumbent upon us to understand how to make it work for whatever it is that we want to make it work for for the betterment of our associations, exactly, for the betterment. Yeah, because I do believe the technology as the enabler allows us to do that, it allows us to be that much more progressive and that much more thoughtful when I think of our online communities, you know, Canada is the second largest country in terms of landmass in the world. So it's pretty big place to get to people from coast to coast to coast. So and we have members from coast to coast to coast. So what better way to engage them? I spend a lot of time traveling in Canada. And I know that for a fact. It's a large, large place to travel across a large place, a beautiful place. It's beautiful. Anyway, so when it comes to AI, we're leaning in and we're trying to learn about it. We're trying to learn how we can use it. We can embrace it that way. Oddly enough, we were recruiting a new team member and several of the cover letters that came with submissions read pretty much identically. It was pretty clear, you know, chat GBT is writing pretty decent cover letters. Yeah, exactly. You started looking at it go, okay, that's fair because it's a piece of technology that's being used. So then you go to the resume and you rely on that. What are their experience? You have to now look at both and that's not a terrible thing because you should have always been doing that in the first place. But it was really interesting sort of case study to see how it can be used and how it is being used for folks that are using it ourselves included. So that's intriguing. I'm going to have to think about that as I look at incoming candidates for our open positions. So I'll make note of that. So we talked about trends, we talked about growth, we've talked about technology. Are there any particular challenges that Canadian associations are facing right now? Oh, yeah. I'm going to go back to engagement because there is that piece around, you know, when we ask this question, you know, again, things like the economy pop up, the changing pace of technology pops up. You know, I think sometimes people think they need to fix the economy and they need to build technology. You don't need to build it. You just need to use it. And when we bubble it up, what comes up in our trends reports and when we talk to members is, again, that engagement piece. So how do you engage? I think that's really the question because you can use all of those other things to engage your members. So I think that's one of the challenges that a lot of members are facing, a lot of associations are facing. Another thing is we need to give ourselves a bit of grace and a bit of kindness. I think we just came out of the great disruptor of certainly of my life. And it just isn't done because the pandemic is declared over. There's fallout from any crisis, from any global crisis. And so, you know, we have to pace ourselves and build ourselves and keep, you know, monitoring and recognizing that the world changed. And so we may have to change. And the return to normal unicorn just doesn't exist. You're carving out a new charter or a new chapter or a new pathway. We're really resetting what normal looks like. It's a new normal. We're not going back to where we were, but rather to where we're going forward. Right? Exactly. My youngest son, when he was a teenager, had a t-shirt, we had gone to a musical in New York to see the Adams family. It was the one that he had picked. He was a kid at the time. He bought this great shirt that just says define normal. He still wears it because he bought it very big. And think about how simple that is, right? Define normal. Who can? Right? Exactly. Exactly. And so I think, you know, there's this sense of we've got to get back. We've certainly experienced that or fair share of that ourselves at CSA. We have to get back to in person and we have to get back to this. Well, the reality is, here's a challenge. Nobody's coming to a lunch and learn anymore because I can sit at my desk comfortably wherever I am. And I can sign on for an hour and a half learning module and get all of the benefit that I could get actually and more because I'm not spending an hour or two hours to get to a destination for a couple of hours worth of learning. Being that in our own data, members are coming out in droves. We just sold out one of our signature events very quickly. But we're seeing that people want to come together, but they're willing to come together for a couple of days as opposed to just an hour or two. So how do you shift? And that's one of the challenges, I think, is releasing what once was. Give yourself some kindness and grace as you go forward and try things and build things. I think that's great advice, Tracy. And it's interesting because at a recent CEO summit I was at, it was said that this whole return to work is polarizing as politics itself, right? It's because there's such a split amongst what the best way is. And in my own day to day life as a CEO, it's like, you just have to think about what works for your situation, not worry about what everyone else is doing and be comfortable with that because it's about your people, your company, your culture and the humans that make it all possible. We have big problems to solve. And so I try to not take on problems that aren't going to affect the outcome of her business. You know, exactly. That's great advice. Yeah. And so speaking of advice, I'd love to leave here with what words of wisdom from your experience and your journey, which is amazing and incredible, would you give to someone aspiring to become a CEO or an executive in the association space? For me, it's about being myself. And so advice would be be yourself. And I'm closer to the sunset of my career than I am to the beginning. So if I could go back and tell myself the same thing, that would be it. Just be yourself and define it in the way it works best for you. For me, it's leaning into a values-based approach to leadership. It's about being authentic. It's about being myself, wherever I am. And that includes tears some day and some days. And it includes laughter on most days, thankfully. It also very much includes knowing what I'm good at and knowing what my limitations are. So I thought for years, my first part of my career was all built in communications. That's building brands and communications. And I thought that's where I was going to be forever. And it took me the majority of my career to realize that one of the things that I'm actually really good at is developing relationships with people. I know that about myself. I also know that I would make the worst accountant in the world. So I surround myself with people who have all of that strength. And I like to think, and here's the piece of advice as well, is that I surround myself or rather surround yourself with people who are smarter than you are. And if you really come at things from who you truly are, then people who resonate with your values and the things that you're trying to do and the culture that you've built, they'll want to join you. And they'll want to protect it. And they'll want to own it. They're going to want to take it forward when it's time for me to say it over to you. It's setting up for them. I'm very fortunate because I have a team that does just that. So what I love about what you just said, Tracy, is two things. One, believe you're not when we asked this question to Michelle Mason, she said, be your authentic self. And what's so powerful and different about that is, as you know, in our younger generation, that wasn't allowed. It was all about conformity and, you know, fall in line. There was a description and a box you needed to fit in. And the world's changed. And I think that that's great as leaders that we recognize that. And we're welcoming that because different mindsets, diverse opinions is what makes us better. So I love that you shared that as one of the top pieces. And the other part of it, which is surround yourself with people to fill in the gaps of your skillset. Guess what? The big myth in leadership is you're not supposed to know it all. That's why you have teams. We have this, like, I think a lot of women in particular suffer from this imposter syndrome because they look at a job description and they're like, oh my god, I can't do all that. You're not supposed to. You're supposed to build amazing teams that help you do the heavy lifting. And that's the wonder of leadership and the beauty of it all. So I'm glad you shared that. Now, I want to pick your brain for books that you would recommend. So listeners can continue to learn after this episode. I think this is a great question. Thank you. And it was a really tough decision. But I'm going to pick one that I don't know that a lot of people have read. And it is David Allison's book on value graphics. Some people know it. Some people don't. The title of the book is we're all the same age now. I love it. And the concept behind value graphics is one of what's important to us and what resonates with us. We're no longer in a box, right? We're not defined by postal code. We're not defined by I'm going to say gender. I'm not defined by being a woman. I identify as one, but I'm not defined by it. And I'm not defined by my age. I'm not defined. And the interesting thing around value graphics is it puts demographics aside where we have traditionally leaned into, well, this market is this and this market is this. And it really leans this book really challenges your thinking to think outside of those boxes that we've positioned for ourselves or that society positioned for us and think to what matters the most to us. Because when it comes down to what matters the most to people, that's usually resonates and is usually very similar across the board. I love that. I love, love, love that because you're right. You're so focused on demographics. But if you think about what makes a family work, what makes a relationship, your friendships, is common values, right? So why wouldn't that not apply to the work environment in an everyday life? Because as you said, we're humans. So we don't magically change who we are when we show up at work, except you did with your name, when you're Zoom, but that's normally not what happens, right? So who we are is who we are, both personally and professionally. So I love that. So how can people follow you or CSAE? Well, CSAE website is easy at csa.com. You can find me if you want to have a chat at Tracy, no Ian Tracy, Tracy at csa.com. We're all very easy to find. You can find us on the website as well. You can find me on LinkedIn. And if you connect with me on LinkedIn, just send me a little note. So I know like how we're connecting and why we're connecting. I'm always very open to making sure that people have access to my contacts so that I can be a conduit. I mentioned mentorship. We talked a little bit about that earlier. I still have mentors, and some of them are older than me, and some of them are younger than me. So, you know, I'm happy to make those connections and support in any way, but I always like to know. Well, I love how accessible you're making yourself. And the other thing about that, as you mentioned, mentors younger, because there's a whole new trend through burst mentorship, because if we want that next generation to come along, it's equally as important that we learn from them as we do giving them. Well, Tracy, I cannot thank you enough for your time and sharing your words of wisdom, trends, everything that's impacting you as a leader in your journey. This has been a great episode. So thank you so much for all the work you're doing. Thank you, Christine, for having me. It's been a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you for listening to the Association Advisor podcast brought to you by Naylor Association Solutions. If you'd like to access more resources to serve your Association needs or join our newsletter, you can visit our website at naylor.com or just click the links in the show notes of this episode. Please be sure to follow us on your favorite podcast listening app, like Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to your podcast, so you won't miss an episode. Also, I'd love to hear from my listeners directly. Feel free to email me at Christine chrystiony.shaw@naylor.com. Until next time, we at Naylor are wishing your Association success.
