I'm so glad you said the word freedom, because I think that part of that shift in paradigm is realizing that success is not equal freedom, which is what was sort of trained to believe. And the truth is that, in fact, you can feel more restricted than you did before you were quote unquote successful. You have more obligations and less ability to say no, and more feeling of burden on your shoulders that you're carrying. And so actually realizing that true freedom is making your intentional conscious choices in life and creating your life from an inner authority almost like, oh, like that's the hit I was looking for. Introducing the Vixen voice, a podcast for ambitious women entrepreneurs ready to move into their feminine essence, live their truth, and unlock their full potential. I'm your host, April Roberts, and each week I'll be interviewing inspiring women who decided to take a leap of faith to pursue their dream, women who believe that they were born for something bigger. Hi, and welcome back to another episode of the Vixen voice. So today's episode has been about a year in the making before we even launched, because I met our guest, Danielle Sunberg via LinkedIn, about a year ago, and we communicated and have been following each other. So it's so exciting to get to talk to her in person today. I am going to warn you that you're listening to two reformed attorneys today, so please forgive us, but we'll share our journeys and we're going to have a little bit of fun. So what I'd love to share about Danielle is she's a multi award winning author and TEDx speaker. She coaches high performers and advises social impact organizations on authentic leadership. And what's really cool is after a huge success, but unfortunately it led her to burnout, Danielle left her law firm and traveled six continents exploring the question she had never been taught to ask, who am I? And this culminated in the publishing of her book, Atlas of Being. So Danielle, welcome, glad to have you join us today. Thank you, April. It's a thrill to be here. I love it. I love it. So it is your first time on the Vixen voice. And my question I like to ask first timers is, you know, obviously you've had a journey, yours literal through six continents, right? But we've all had our journey and we've had different pivotal moments during that journey. And it's made us, you know, the amazing multifaceted women we are today. So what is one of your pivotal stories that sticks out really to bring us to today and this amazing woman sitting in front of us? Oh, thank you. That's very sweet. You know, leaving my law firm is definitely one of those cornerstone moments. And, you know, it has layers to it. In part, it's not just having left a law firm because you can do that and then go in house or go do something else with the law, but I left the field entirely. So there's the professional layer of the pivot. But deeper than that, it is a pivot out of a paradigm that I had grown up and lived in for 30 something years and hadn't realized that there was another paradigm available to how we can live our lives. And, you know, the paradigm I was living in was basically the equation that success equals money, prestige, power, and that you needed to gain those three things in order to be successful at all costs. So oftentimes there's a minus mental wellness, emotional wellness, relationships, hobbies, right, those things. And both my parents were attorneys. So it grew up in this soup of you will be successful if you're an attorney. They modeled it for me. And so it became really obvious to me as the path to go down. If I wanted to prove myself, then this was like a clear shiny brass ring to grab. And basically I did achieve success in all the ways that were taught, but then I also had all the things that were minuses. And like you said, I burned out. I was diagnosed with depression and generalized anxiety. And ultimately the decision to leave my firm was the first decision that I made as an adult to choose my inner authority over societal authority. And it took a while to get there a couple of years of swimming around in the depression. What do I do? What do I do? But when I finally got there and to the place of trusting my inner authority that I need to leave and I don't know what's next and that the unknown of that is less scary than what it would look like to stay, that sort of an addictive feeling of following your own authority of realizing how powerful you are that you can create your lineup with your own compass, right? So that's what I was like, oh, this is where I need to be focused. And I don't know where it's leading, but this is the path. And that's what led me on this journey across six continents and asking who am I? Who am I in this place and who am I in that place? And in this culture and all of it is just sort of, it's my drug. I love that. And I got chills as you were talking because it's so funny. I just recorded our hundredth episode and I was kind of ruminating on the year, you know, what brought us to the hundredth episode. And my two big things that I'm championing now are number one that we all have freedom of choice. And this is a hard kind. Like you get it because you chose and now you're addicted to choosing, right? But I can't tell you how many people I love and are very close to me and clients as well that want to argue this point. No, I didn't have a choice in that. No, you always have a choice. You might not like what you choose to choose or what you have to do with that choice. But like, I just think the ultimate freedom comes when you understand we always have a choice in everything we do. And I mean, including this is extreme, but I might choose to die over doing something else, right? But I have that choice. Like you're still choosing, okay, I don't want to die. So I'm doing this, right? And like you just said it so beautifully when you said, you know, as your first decision as an adult, because I remember picking my law firm and stuff to go to, which my first decision as an adult. But what you said was, you know, to choose your inner authority versus societal authority. And it's so true because I and I love that you use the term prestige. I use the term status a lot and I mean the same thing as prestige. But like, you know, we grew up from baby boomer parents. And that's what they here was the model. Like you go to the best college possible, you come out and you get the best job possible, making as much money as possible. So I too worked at the largest law firm in Atlanta. They paid me six figures when I was 25 years old. Who was I the question working 80 hours a week, right? And like, it was like normal until we woke up one day and go, hold on, something's wrong with this equation. So walk us through. What was that moment for you, Danielle? Well, I just wanted to touch on them. So let you said the word freedom because I think that part of that shift in paradigm is realizing that success is not equal freedom, which is what we're sort of trained to believe. And the truth is that in fact, you can feel more restricted than you did before you were quote unquote successful, you have more obligations and less ability to say no. And you know, more feeling of burden on your shoulders that you're carrying. And so actually realizing that true freedom is making your intentional, conscious choices in life and creating your life from an inner authority. I was like, oh, like that's the hit I was looking for, okay? I love it and I love your enthusiasm because this is why so many people are like, why do you work with Gen X female entrepreneurs? And I mean, I don't, you know, I have millennial clients. I have baby boomer, but I focus on Gen Xers because it's that time in life that women kind of have piled on all the layers of responsibility. They're a mom, they're a wife, they have a successful job, right? And, and, and for some reason, we most of we women aren't able to say, no, but I'm going to put myself first in my inner authority, right? I love the term inner authority that you're using. But at the stage Gen Xers are at now, they start realizing, okay, there is something outside of like this box I've created, whereas you and I for whatever reason, you know, I was 27 when I realized this and I'd love to hear how old you were. And it's so funny, I look back and I realize now what a blessing that was for me. It doesn't mean it's the right path. Like we all have our different paths, but that happened for me for a reason. So I could do the work I do today, like inviting other women to have this realization and really design their business around the life they want to live. So I love that. So I'm curious, when you had this aha, you know what? I can break out of these chains and go do whatever I want. That's what I'm going to say. You say it so much more eloquently, but it is like, how old were you when that happened? I was 30. So walk us through that because even though I'm sure you had a moment and it sounds to me like you had what I call a two by four moment and I had that when I had to leave my ex-husband where it's kind of like, you know, like you have whispers and then it speaks to you and like you kind of know something's off and you ignore, ignore, ignore. And then you get the two by four in the forehead and like you kind of can't ignore anymore. Because when I left my marriage, I was really mentally, physically and emotionally broken. Like I couldn't function, like it almost wasn't a choice, right? And so that's why I strive now. I'm like, okay, let's not get to the two by four moment. Like let's listen and make the choice sooner. So I mean, because you talk about burnout and depression, so I imagine you had a similar situation, right? So walk us through what happened leading up to your decision to leave the legal practice. You know, for me, it felt kind of, you know, the story of the frog in the boiling water you boil to death, you know, essentially there's, you know, you put a frog in a pot of water and you turn on the stove and as the water heats up, the frog gets accustomed to that temperature and then ends up boiling to death. Whereas when you say two by four, for me, that feels like, okay, did someone, if you just turn the fire on to boiling point and you drop the frog in, the frog's going to jump back. And I feel like so much of my leaving the the law story is more like a slow burn to death. You know, it's like, how much can I take? How long can I hold on until you're literally holding on by one little fingernail and you can't hold on anymore? And so, you know, maybe that moment of the two by four is the thing that happens that just makes that fingernail fall off. But it was actually the success of winning that that trial. So as you mentioned, I was defending a client against a six billion dollar judgment. And so I basically made an agreement to myself to stay through the end of the trial. And so no matter how I fell and no matter how much I might have hoped that the metro and the way to work, I was in DC, the metro and the way to work, my crash and I would end up in the hospital so I wouldn't have to work, which is obviously, you know, you're there's something to work with there if you're having those thoughts. But I was like, okay, I'm going to keep going and push through until the end of this trial. And so once the trial ended, I felt like I had done my duty to the firm and was leaving them in a place that they could, you know, bring in the next associate, fill my spot really quickly. And they wouldn't be at too much of a negative place from my leaving. And how did you, I mean, at that point, where you just like, good, I'm done. I mean, because the responsibility of leaving somewhere is tough, right? Like it can feel lonely making that decision. Just how did you feel at that moment? Or did you just already know? When once I have a decision, I am so fully committed to that decision. And I want to make that decision and act on it like right now, like waiting feels awful for me. But it can take me a long time to get to that decision. But, you know, from the perspective of the law firm and my colleagues looking at me, having made that decision, I got, you know, stairs that they thought like, maybe I'm contagious and they're going to catch whatever I've got and they're going to have to lead to. And like they just, you know, far away. I was, you know, just exiled, right? Because that is so far a field from what you quote unquote should be doing climbing the corporate ladder and getting to, you know, partner and all the things that you can achieve. And so whatever I was doing was like sick for them. So you literally kind of burn the ships and moved on, right? Because it sounds like not a lot of people stayed in touch. Oh, I mean, people stay in touch now and everything is fine. But you know, the last two weeks in the office after you give your, your notice, people are walking around like tiptoeing around you. It's not, it's a wild experience to, you know, have your two weeks notice in a place like that because obviously I wasn't getting new work. No one needed to talk to me. People were taking work away from me. Like everything is about removing me like I'm an ulcer, right? And that's just the vibe that I had to like kind of, but it was great because I was like, no one needs me to be here. I don't need a bill any hours. I'm going to go to the gym. So yeah, you're like making it easy for me. Thanks. So when you left, I know you talk about and you've shared a lot of your journey and your book, right? But when, when did the depression and burnout come up? Obviously, you're experiencing the burnout while working because if you thought, Hey, if the metro crashes, so I don't have to go to work today, I'm totally cool with that. I can relate. I almost got hit with a bus by a bus when I was in Milan, Italy, like living with my ex. And I remember thinking, that wouldn't have been so bad. And that was what like snapped me out and said, okay, I need to make a change. Like this is not normal. And you know, I think many of us, I've talked to a ton of my friends have been in this place. And it's not something we say out loud. So first kudos to having courage to say it out loud and to write a book about it. But kind of walk us through that that process. Like, how did you realize you that it was burnout? You were experiencing that you did have depression? What was your journey going through it? You know, there's there's this inner world going on behind our eyes that we do our best to ignore. And so it was in so far as I stopped ignoring it. And then it became unavoidable to look at. And that inner world being one where things weren't lining up. And I was having thoughts that, you know, why isn't my life how I expected it to be like those kinds of things that don't seem very insidious. And we all have them from time to time. But we tend to like swap them away and not even acknowledge that they're there. And that's what I was doing for a long time until I couldn't anymore. They were just so in front of my face at that point. Like, for example, coming into work and not caring to, you know, check in with the partners that I was on cases with. And you know, the first thing that you do it as associate, you run into your office, you hope you're the first one there so you can like have this invisible badge of honor that you're working all the time. And then you check and see who needs me, right? What partner might need me? What can I do right now to prove that I am worth that insane salary that you're paying me? And so, you know, that was that was how I started my career as an attorney. And that really fell away, right? I was delaying it. I was like, Oh, I need to go get a coffee. I need to like whatever, like do something that was just a procrastination. So that was my first sign. My hair started going completely gray. Wow. I had no ability to, you know, meet with friends, do the things that seem also at some point like things that we're willing to sacrifice, like our social connections. But as we learn through the pandemic, connection is actually the best medicine that we have. And not having it during isolation was the biggest issue that we had to face. So, you know, not knowing that because this is pre pre pandemic, but losing all those connections, losing all those wet, the web of grounding and feeling supported and loved and seen and all of that was gone, right? So I'm just floating through the day in an office where I don't want to be there, like that at some point you can't avoid. And it has an impact. Yeah, no, it's a lot to just feel lost. It's interesting. This memory came up for me when I was working in the huge Furman Atlanta doing litigation. So like you, like very fast pace, right? And I remember, you know, some of my college friends also lived in Atlanta. And one was a banker. And I think the other was an engineer. And they met up with like my law friends and I for a drink. And it was like we're over here like, like, I mean, a million miles a minute talking lingo that no one understands. And I just remember sitting there going, we're speaking like a totally different language than my friends. And it was so interesting because I didn't necessarily feel the isolation you did because I had started with so many attorneys my age, but you get sucked. I did have the opposite. My whole social life became people at work, right, which I think is also dangerous, not having those outside connections, because it's like normal for you to go have dinner at nine o'clock at night or, you know, two. And I mean, one, one harmful side effect for me was my friends and I were drinking all the time we weren't working. I mean, you know, we're 25, 26, 27 years old, making six figures like working 80 hours a week. So when you're not working, you're traveling or you're out with friends or you're just like, you know, kind of like, Oh, I got to have a lot of fun really quickly because I don't have much time. And so yeah, there were so many like toxic negative things that happened. So talk to us about when you left, how did you decide you were going to hit six continents? Like, where did this idea come from? Oh, I mean, I never did decide that. It just is what happened. You know, so I actually got married about a month after I left my firm. And five days after our wedding, I think five, we left the US and we packed up all our bags. We left our apartment and we put everything in storage and we just decided to start traveling and see where it took us and for how long it just happened to be that we traveled to six continents. You know, the seventh is obviously Antarctica. And someday I will get there. And it took about two years or so to move through all of that travel. I love it. Yeah, Antarctica is on my bucket list. I really want to take that cruise down there. So you hit the road, you head out, you don't know for how long. So share with us some of your favorite stories of the journey or why don't we hit each continent and what you learned? Because you talked about who am I here? And you know, I know when I lived in Italy, like being in a country where English wasn't my first language and I had always been an exceptional communicator, that was very challenging to my concept of who I am. Like, I really had to dig in there and find other things. So what were the lessons you learned about who you who you are along the way? I really learned, okay, so I would say that there are three buckets of laws, okay? And one bucket is being a lawyer, right? Are the laws of society, social laws, you will go to jail if you do acts, right? And then there are natural laws, like the laws of physics. But then there are the, you know, metaphysical laws that they translate to, which are these are laws that essentially are self enforced, okay? So there are not laws that society can change. Like gravity is going to always exist. And 100 out of 100 times if you drop a glass, it will fall, right? That's gravity. That's a law of nature. So metaphysically, law of nature would be something like you think of thought and then you feel it. Like that's just the way our human system works. Our feelings are triggered by our thinking. Then the third bucket of laws are our mental laws. Those are what we now talk about as self limiting beliefs or just beliefs. They don't have to be self limiting, but that's sort of when we tend to look at them. They're the things that we've been taught to think, the programming that we've been given by our parents, society, authority figures, that sometimes we don't realize are the framework for how we view life and how we show up in it and how we create dynamics and relationships. And so I would say that the traveling through the world gave me exposure and allowed me to move really out of needing the laws of society to work and operating my life based on those and becoming a master of them because, you know, I thought that would help me create a really successful life. Anyway, moving from that bucket into these other two buckets and giving more attention to them and realizing the power that comes from mastering the inner laws, the natural laws, and how working with them gives us that true power and true freedom. One example of that to just give you a story when I was sailing in Greece. Yeah, so my husband and I and three other couples rented a catamaran for a week to sail the Aegean Sea, which is, you know, one of the best adventures that I ever had. And one day, this is about five days into the sailing, my girlfriend is seasick the whole time. And she's had seasickness patches. This is also a chapter in the book. She's had seasickness patches on. Fifth day, she's run out of seasickness patches. The captain of the boat says, I'm going to take you to this little tiny island that we get to have all to ourselves. And it's just going to be beautiful, serene. There's dolphins here. This is the best little remote spot and we're all like, great. And so as we start sailing, this storm comes. Now, my friend who gets seasick is like, oh no, but a different word. And she starts cowering in her boyfriend's lap and pleading for her life more or less, right? The storm is coming in. We're starting to rock on the boat. The rain is falling. It's become so grand hazy that you can't tell where the sky and the scene meet. My husband, Ted, on the other hand, is from Florida. And so for him, hurricanes are just a season. And he's just like having a great time. He throws on his windbreaker. He's howling into the sky. He's beating his chest. He's doing rain dances. And so I'm watching these two people have these completely opposite experiences where nothing external to them is different, right? They're on the same boat. They're both mortals. We're going to the same place. We're enduring the same storm. So why are there experiences so completely different? And I knew it had to be whatever they were thinking, right? And I don't know what they're thinking can't get inside their heads and say this is what they were thinking. But it was obviously their thoughts in their head that were triggering feelings of fear or of joy of celebration of excitement. And that allowing them to create a certain experience for themselves. And we do that through life every day with everything. That just happens to be a nice illustration of a really extreme example. But we're always creating life right from the inside out. And so that was something that I spent a lot of time in a lot of places reflecting on. Yeah, I agree because, you know, we always hear the stories of how anxiety or fear and excitement are just two different sides of the same coin, right? And so which way do you see that moment? It's really interesting. We're going to Belize next week for our retreat. And when we land, there's a puddle jumper. And I go down to Honduras all the time and take a puddle jumper. Like, I love puddle jumpers and helicopters. Like, I just think they're so relaxing. I don't know. It's like you're floating in the air versus the big commercial planes. It's just a unique experience. But I mean, I'm used to it. And I was like, I was like, oh, okay. I was like, and someone was explaining, oh, I'm a little like fearful about this, you know, getting on a small plane. I was like, oh, well, like, it's actually really amazing. Like, it's really a beautiful experience, right? And I was just trying to say like, you know, it's not really scary when you get on it. Like, it's no big deal. And she was like, yeah, but April, you believe in God and you believe you're always going to be fine. No matter what, like, the rest of us don't feel that way. And I was like, oh, my gosh, how did you get here from what we're talking about? I was just trying to explain, like, it's usually a pleasant experience. It's not that big a deal. But like, you just see how differently people see different experiences, right? Because I'm like, oh, yeah, we get to get on a puddle jumper. And then I realized, oh, not everyone thinks like me. I better check in and make sure the rest of the group is like, okay, or how can we make this easier for them and a better experience. But you know, we also know that by testing the boundaries of what scares us, we overcome it, because at least for me, I feel that do you feel that way? Because I know I never loved open water. And now that I go down to Honduras all the time, every time the boats in the middle of the open water, I force myself to jump in. And now it's like one of my favorite things, like swimming in the open water, whereas before, you know, when I was younger, I was totally fearful of this, but I went through the space where it was like, if anything scares me, I'm going to do it because I don't want to have fear. I want to enjoy life. So on your trip, I'm curious, did you face anything that maybe was outside of your comfort zone before that you had to overcome? Hmm, yeah, definitely. So we spent a month in Columbia in this tiny little rural town on the edge of the mountains that overlook Medellin. And when we arrived, it was nighttime, you know, like getting off the plane. It was nighttime. It was raining. You can't tell like what's happening really and we're exhausted and jet lagged. We take this car ride up to this house and, you know, of course, I'd seen pictures of the house. I rented the house. I knew what I was getting into. And yet somehow, you know, the intellectual knowing of what it is versus the actual physical experience of something sometimes don't match up, right? So I go into the house and I'm like, okay, I knew what this house was. It was really super rural. There were no creature comforts. There's no buttons that you can push for, you know, changing the temperature. There's no microwave. There's no laundry. Like everything required doing it. And there were bugs like they're in the middle of the jungle. So anyway, go into the house and I fall to my knees and I start crying. And I'm like, I can't do this for a month. This is too much. I'm already exhausted just thinking about it now that I'm here, right? And all I wanted was like sushi and Netflix, like somebody, please. But, you know, like, what's cool is how we acclimate, like as humans, we are so resilient and so agile if we give ourselves a chance to prove it. And so I committed just staying there for the month. And, you know, there are like three weeks later, I remember waking up to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night. And I'm sitting on the toilet and, you know, my eyes are like bleary and I'm kind of running them open a little bit. And I see dangling right in front of me on a string is this big black spider and it is in mid battle with a big black scorpion. Oh my gosh. Now, three weeks ago, I would have ran out of that house. Like, yeah, I tailed it. And I just saw them and I flushed the toilet and I got back into bed and I wished good luck to the spider because I knew the spider might be a better companion than the scorpion. And like, that's it. And then I woke up the next day and I was like, huh? Okay, like that was no big deal. And I also feel like we don't really give ourselves credit in exploring the unknown or things that are uncomfortable for us and actually being able to rise to the occasion because by the time we've risen to the occasion, it's normal. It's known. It's something that we're comfortable with. And so we don't even necessarily see it. Yeah, no, I agree. That's a good point. And often when I'm working with my clients, because a lot of them have left corporate careers and now they have their own business, very much like you and I have. And you know, it's like, you were successful over here. Let's focus on like the skills and the traits and everything that made you successful here. And let's think like, okay, how am I using them in this new career when I feel lost or in my business? Because it does, you know, and you work with high performers. So I'd love to hear how this relates to your business today. But it is off kilter when you've had this level of success. And then suddenly you make this like courageous, bold decision, okay, I'm going to go start my own business. And you really do feel like a 12 year old who's lost your footing for a bet. And you have to regain. So I love the way you talked about how you just acclimate over time. And like just letting letting women know, hey, you're going to acclimate to this, it's going to become the norm. I mean, even with, you know, podcasting, I used to have a TV show, but that was a little different. So I remember when I first did podcasting, I was like, okay, I'm only going to do three episodes in a day. Like I don't know what my voice is going to hold up on what now I can do like six episodes in a day if I have to. But like you don't start there, right? Like you build up that capacity muscle. And you're talking about a different thing with acclamation. But it is over time that we build these muscles. And and one thing I always share because I'm a certified high performance coach is high performance don't stop and reflect on where they were and where they are now. And when you reflect on that journey, I love what you said, you have to like celebrate and realize how you've acclamated and how you've changed over time. Because I'm not a huge fan of looking backwards either. But sometimes we want to look backwards to say, okay, I was there and now I'm here. All right, let me give myself scooters and keep going. So I love that. So tell us about how the tapestry of this journey and all the decisions you made kind of culminated. And I'm sure I know you're still evolving. But how did this like culminate in the work you do today? You said it a little bit too. You know, I'm working with high performers, we're driven to excel and we're people who are used to hitting marks. And so doing something that's out of our comfort zone, we may not hit the marks immediately. And that's really frustrating for us. Oh my gosh, it's so uncomfortable, especially, you know, you're talking about your, your audience are mostly Gen X women. And Gen X women grew up with the, the notion of sort of a linear life in the, in terms especially professionally of like you become an expert, you go to school, you become your expert in your thing, and then you deepen your expertise until you retire. And that's just really not the way that our world is anymore. Like no one has the 50 year lifetime achievement award at general motors, right? Like we swing into different professions. It's, it's way more of what we see in today's world. And so the idea that that was going to require doing something new and starting fresh and being uncomfortable is something that we're as an idea, at least getting comfortable with, right? I'm wanting to make this pivot into something unknown. And that idea feels good in my body to do that. And now I just have to do it and get comfortable with it along the way. Yeah, no, I totally agree. So when you came back from your trip, how did you decide what's next? Or did you start working as you were traveling or did you all stay completely free? I actually agreed to help out my husband's company. He, so he and I met in law school, but he also left the law. And he was doing an entrepreneurial pursuit. And I agreed to help him with that while we were traveling so that, you know, it was just, it made it easier for us to travel together. But when I came back to the US to put down roots, it was because we decided to start a family. And when that was like in 2019, and we also started a health and wellness company, a CPG company that has since been acquired. And I also decided to write my book. So we also decided to get pregnant. And we also decided, right, I was also doing my own coaching. So like all these things just blew up as soon as we came back to the US, there was like a cosmic like we're open sign, you know, that was now here happening. And it was a lot. It was a lot. And even through the pandemic, it was a lot like nothing really slowed down for us. And right now I'm actually in one of the biggest transitions from probably that moment of coming back to the US, which is being more comfortable with full time mom. I mean, talk about doing something that scares you in order to grow, letting go actually of more of my professional time, and really just saving like a little corner of my life for the couple clients and couple things that I really want to do. And really giving most of it to my kids and my family is so uncomfortable for me, because I grew up, I'm sure a lot of your listeners grew up this way, of believing that myself value is so intertwined with my contribution to society. And motherhood, because it's not financial, the contribution is invisible, and therefore there's just real, you know, sticky, messy understanding of what does it mean to be a mom and what's my value here. And so it really scares me to say I first and foremost am a mom today. I hear you and it's interesting because I'm not a mom, but I view being a mom as the most valuable job on earth and also the most difficult job on earth. So there, but I understand what you're saying, it's not measurable and all the other. We've been trained to measure our success, right? But what you do every day is extremely hard work, but there's no like, oh, I, I reached this goal, or I made this much money, because yes, one thing I learned about myself is I measured success by the amount of dollars coming in, which is one measure of success, right? So today, one of my biggest measures of success is what's going on in my client's life. Like I have a client who's publishing a book next month. So going to her launch party, like I have a client who's promoting her book, you know, I have someone speaking at something. And so like, I really love that. And I know as a mom, you get to see those things with your kids, but it just amazes me that in today's society, so many of us struggle with it. Because trust me, I would always say, oh my gosh, I don't think I could be a stay at home mom. Even though I do think it's the most valuable job and the hardest job on earth, like it's not a lack of value, but I was just like, I don't think I'm cut out for it. So like, I totally understand where you're coming from. But like, what have you done to overcome that? And by the way, congratulations on the courageous decision, because it's, it's an extremely important one. Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that. And I appreciate you saying that it is a valuable, difficult job because, you know, it is. There's no denying it. It's, it's many, many, many things. It's my biggest teacher. And in truth, if I zoom out far enough, what I see is that it's, it's the biggest catalyst for me being able to level up what I do vocationally. You know, my kids and my husband, my family life, the way that we show up for each other, the way that they teach me and I teach them is just the biggest sandbox for experimentation and learning and growth. And I know that the more I invest in that, the more I'm really investing in myself, and my ability to hold more for clients. Yeah, no, it's beautiful. I love it. Yeah, the other thing I like, I have to give kudos to parents today, because the other thing, as I joke, I was like, God on purpose didn't give me kids because we'd be living under a dome somewhere out growing our own food and I'd be homeschooling. So I'd be too busy to have a job anyway. Like I'm so fanatical about things that I can't even imagine if I had children to take care of the level of fanaticism, like what it would go up to. So I know you've taken a journey that not many people take. I mean, the world is evolving, but a lot of people are still in the success treadmill, right? So do you find it challenging? I'm sure you have, you know, you talked about the three buckets of laws, like understanding this is totally different than how most people operate. So do you find it challenging, like being a parent in the means that feels right to you and showing up, let's just say, you know, out in society, where so many people are still following the societal laws and rules? I think I used to, I might still a little bit for sure, you know, whatever, but there is the, you know, the coach in us that when we see someone so stuck and so in a blind spot, we want to like turn their neck for them. And it took a while for me to stop reaching out and trying to do that for somebody. If you're not ready to, you know, look somewhere else and see something new, then you're not ready. And that's sort of a gift I've given myself back, which is the energy that I was expending unnecessarily and in vain, you know, but I probably didn't really attract many friends or people, you know, if you don't want to be convinced of something, then like it's like, go away. Yeah, actually, my spiritual practice helped me with that because I definitely used to be someone who wanted to save the world, right? And not, I mean, not that that's not still in me, but I understand I can't do it alone. Like we have to do it collectively. But in my spiritual practice, just, you know, you talk about universal laws, and I know you're talking about more natural, but one for me is the value of our individual free will. And it's so important to me not to step on another human beings free will that I become very good at waiting for the invite. So I like to say, I don't give my opinion if it's not invited or asked. And even when it's asked, sometimes I'm like, are you sure we want to go here? But it's definitely a journey to get to that place, right? And understand, because you use the term convince and I very much used to be the same way, right? And then I'm like, what, why am I trying to convince them what they should do with their lives? So for me, that was a huge spiritual evolution to realize we all have our free will when somebody wants my coaching. Here I am. Right, right. I mean, that's exactly that's exactly right. And I think the difference is remembering where I came from and the, you know, the mental paradigm I used to live in and feeling empathy for it instead of disgust for it, right? Like, oh, I'm so past that. And like, I'm so much more conscious than that now. I can't believe I actually ever used to be stuck like that, right? Instead of being like, wow, that that girl is still in me somewhere. And she still shows up because that pattern isn't completely gone. I still come up, come up and deal with it in certain contexts. And so I think that, you know, the spirituality part of it is so interesting because a lot of people want to have coaching, but they don't necessarily say they want it to be spiritual. You know, I don't call myself a spiritual coach. But in fact, a lot of what's happening is we're taking their everyday problem that's going on at work or with their family, their boundaries, their ability to, you know, create balance in their lives. And we're helping them improve it. But behind the scenes, what someone like you and me are doing is actually saying this is how you operate in life at a different level of consciousness. I totally agree. And I do spiritual healing as well, which again, when invited in, but sometimes I'm in situations. Interestingly, this doesn't happen to me when I'm coaching or consulting because I'm very good at meeting my client where they're at and like appreciating it and like guiding to the next level. But it was coming up for me in a couple of podcasts and some other things that I'm like, go away, go away. You know, when this thoughts just drop down and like, it'll come to me like, Oh, it's so much easier than this. Like the path could be so much easier, right? And like, you just really like often I find myself wanting to show people, but there's an easier way. Let's take the easier path. But so that I do still fight on myself only because I want everyone to live a joyful life and live their best life and just be totally human. So yeah, that's that's still the part of me that wants to save the world. So you're right. We never completely break that pattern. I remember my husband and I had a good friend who he would bring around boyfriends and we would meet them and we would consistently, you know, after he left my husband, I would be like, two thumbs down, right? And we would tell our friend, you can do so much better than this. Like you are whatever, right? Like you just have so much more to offer than you're receiving from this partnership. And my husband and I would talk about it because to your point of what you're talking about, letting people live their own lives and, you know, getting to that place where they can make the shift from within is so much more powerful than, you know, let's say my husband saying to him, I'm going to introduce you to someone who is better for you and I want you to go on a date with him and kind of forcing it as opposed to my tact of, you know, he needs to kind of burn this pattern out on his own and he'll get there when he gets there. And maybe he needs another relationship until he suffers enough in it to realize, I can't do this anymore to myself. And now he's engaged to like the man of his dreams and it's wonderful. Oh, I love that. And what a celebration the wedding's going to be. Yeah, definitely. Love it. No, one thing interesting that I learned along my path of healing is sometimes you can actually get healed from something, but you still have karma to burn. So even though you're healed and not triggered, you still have to go through that pattern a couple of more times to like continue burning the karma. So I think that's when sometimes we want to fast track like things for people we love, it's just not the time for them to be done with it, right? And it takes a lot of learning patience, which if you're a high performer, we're not great at patience. That's the challenge. Yeah, I mean, I learned that one of, you know, talk about the inner inner laws, like one of mine has been efficiency, like make it all as efficient as possible. And if it's inefficient, then there's something wrong. And taking why there's actually a chapter in the book about that, where I talked to this guy who I knew not very well, but we had met once or twice. And he was like very spiritually minded. And we ended up meeting in Texas where I live now at a barbecue. And he and I get to chat and you know, I'm eating my brisket. And he's telling me how he found one of the most enlightened ways of becoming, you know, better as a person, as a whatever. And I'm like, what is it? And he was like, well, I am a vegetarian, because meat keeps you too grounded. And I need to give up meat so that I can ascend. And everyone, not just me, everyone needs to do that. Like that was his dog not was vegetarian was for more enlightened people. And I'm sitting there chewing on my barbecue, my brisket, I'm like, okay, I don't agree. But what I felt in that moment was pity, that he was so trapped in a dogma that I could see so clearly wasn't real and was therefore inefficient for his spiritual journey. And it took me years, years, April, to come out of that realization and step away and say, actually, I was trapped in my own dogma too, because look how I was judging him. We all are. And that's why we have to, yeah, I love, you know, just think about having a conversation with other people and being curious about what's important to them and why without judgment is such an important thing to develop. And like you said, it takes years and years, I can remember at one point, I was like, okay, I feel I need to be more compassionate, please send me more lessons in compassion. Oh my gosh, that painful, like I failed like six times out of 10 when the lesson came, right? But then I could look back and like laugh about it and be like, Oh, there was the lesson and I failed. But like, it was so painful, like the saying be careful what you ask for is so true. But but you have to go through that pain to come out the other side. And now like compassion is my normal mode of being. And it doesn't mean it's 100% because to your point, we're human beings and we're perfectly imperfect. Like, you know, if I were a compassionate 100% of the time, this lifetime would probably be over and I wouldn't be here anymore. I mean, I'm not in a hurry to reach perfection because, you know, that that's kind of it. So no, I love it this fun. I love that you're eating brisket while you were having this conversation. And really, only those of us who have lived in Texas understand the power of brisket. So a funny story is during the pandemic, when they were, you know, limiting, it was HEB, which is a Texas grocery store. I'm sure you guys have it there in Austin. Anyway, they had a sign up and it was like limit two rolls of toilet, you know, two packages of toilet paper, two paper towels, two briskets per customer, like brisket was listed at the essentials. And I just I think I was like, only in Texas, only in Texas. So no, I love it. Well, thank you so much for sharing your stories today. I know you have so many. So if you're listening to this and you've enjoyed, please, please check out Danielle's book. The links are in the show notes. And if you have not subscribed to the Vixen voice, subscribe and that way, all of these amazing resources get delivered to your inbox. So you could just click on the link and order Atlas of being instead of going to search for it. So go to Vixen gathering.com and subscribe to the Vixen voice. So going forward, you have everything at your fingertips. So Daniel, it's been so fun to finally get to chat with you live. I want to turn for our last two questions. I know you've listened to a bunch of episodes, so I'm sure you know what's coming, but I love that you focused on motherhood, because I do like to talk about women focusing on their feminine energy. And again, I'm not a mother and I can tap into my feminine energy all the time. So I'm not being assumptive here, but you know, you are making a choice to be a bit more in your feminine energy than the masculine driven energy. So I'm kind of curious, when do you feel your most feminine at the stage of your life, like the feminine energy is flowing through you? That's a great question. I think, I think right now, it's just when I have my feet in the grass, just being in nature and feeling connected to the world in that way, the, you know, the heat of the Texas sun on my skin, feeling that physical sensation of the world and feeling it through a sense of exhale. It feels feminine for me. Yeah, it's no, it's beautiful and it's totally true. I love that. What color would your feminine energy be? Oh, I know this for sure. Love it. It's this eggplant purple color. Yes, nice. I like it. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for today. I always like to end by reminding our listeners that the world needs more love and challenging you. How can you show up more in love today with those around you, with yourself, even to with strangers on the street? So Danielle, what's your final message that you'd love to leave our audience with? I think that my final message here, considering what we were chatting about is that you have way more power and way more potential than you could ever possibly realize. Yeah, I love that. And 100% agree. Well, thank you so much for joining us. I can't wait to talk to you again soon. And for everyone listening, I will talk with you soon and don't be a stranger. You know that we love to hear from you. We'd love to hear who you'd like us to interview, what you'd like us to talk about, what's relevant in your life. So again, don't be a stranger, reach out and let us know. Have a great day, everyone. Thanks again for listening to the podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to hit subscribe so future episodes are automatically downloaded directly to your device. And if you want access to today's show notes, including links to all the resources we mentioned, visit fixandgathering.com/podcast. Thanks again for listening and I'll catch you next week for another episode of The Vixen Boys. [Music] [BLANK_AUDIO]
