Journey to Truth

EP 279 -Forest Craword: Former MUFON Investigator Reveals Compelling Evidence Of UFO Crash Retrieval

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Forest Crawford:
Forest started his life-long journey as a UFO/UAP investigator at age 10 when he witnessed a saucer shaped craft land in a farm field near Hardin, Illinois. By age 13 he began collecting books on the subject and at age 18 he gave his first public presentation at the UFO Study Group of Greater St. Louis on "Propulsion Theory and Detection Methods". He went off to college on a Navy R.O.T.C. scholarship as a Physics major. He later got involved as a Field Investigator for MUFON. He continued as a State Section Director, Assistant State Director and ultimately as MUFON State Director of Illinois where he served for 11 years. Forest was also appointed to the MUFON Staff position of Computer Specialist where he created the first computer database to collect and analyze MUFON's vast UFO reports and data. He also served as the Midwest Director of the Center for Crop Circle Studies. He is an award winning Certified Hypnotherapist and has worked with many experiencers to help them better understand and remember their close encounters. He holds a BA degree in Organizational Leadership with a minor in Psychology from Maryville University. Forest has presented on his research at conferences and group meetings all over the country and has been heard on many radio shows and TV programs. He has appeared in several documentaries and was a technical consultant for a made-for-TV movie about abduction experiences. He is currently acting as the Master of Ceremonies for the Ozark Mountain UFO Conference held annually in Eureka Springs, Arkansas.

Duration:: 1h 34m
Broadcast on:: 14 Jul 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

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Once again, the Early Bird Sale just ended, and we're really excited to see you guys out there, but if all the information for the event is at rebelswithdisclosure.com, and the live stream tickets are available this year, and all the in-person passes come with a live stream ticket, so that's really cool. We hope to see you guys there. And don't forget, we have new promo code for Hopewell Farms CBD. If you guys are looking to try a new CBD, I highly recommend Hopewell Farm. They're one of my favorites. The topical ointment is just as good as the CBD oil, and they have 15% off all of their products with promo code JTT. Thanks through December 3rd, so take advantage of that, that link is below as well. So as some of you may know, I spoke recently in Springfield, Missouri at Xcon, a conference put on my Margie Kay, and one of the presenters there was Forest Crawford, our guest tonight. I was unfamiliar with his work until that event. He's a former Mufan investigator, UFO researcher, and he told us about a case, a UFO crash retrieval case that contains so much information and so much validity. There's so much to it. You know, we always hear these stories that are told. We interview a lot of people, but there's so much tangible evidence to grab onto with this case, and the thorough investigation that you guys did, I thought was absolutely profound. And it's one of the wildest stories I've heard, and I can't believe that I hadn't heard it before. So what we're going to do tonight is we're going to turn this over to Forest and give him a chance basically to re-give the presentation to our audience. And we're going to ask questions along the way, but it's such an intriguing story, and it has to be told in its entirety to really appreciate what's going on here, and the bigger picture of how the government and maybe some of these shadow groups will step in and kind of manipulate disclosure and the information that they want coming out, which is really interesting. So welcome to the show, Forest. Well, thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, your presentation blew my mind, and I reached out to Margie right after the event. I was like, can you please give me his contact? I want to interview him and talk more about this, because it's so frustrating to be in the audience and not being able to ask questions. I'm an interviewer, you know, so I like to ask questions along the way, and I'm really grateful to have that opportunity. So I guess maybe just to give our audience a background on how this case came to you and how the whole, how that whole thing started and what your involvement was. Okay. Back in the 90s, man, that seems so long ago now, back in the 90s, yeah, yeah. I was, I was very involved in, in your phone, your phone investigation. I was a move on state director for most of the 90s and into the 2000s and did a lot of Missouri for, well, no, actually for Illinois. Oh, Illinois. Okay. And then Illinois, right by St. Louis. Okay. And so I live in St. Louis now, but I, yeah, lived in the greater St. Louis area my whole life, basically, except for a horrible stint in upstate New York for five and a half years, but that has nothing to do with the story. Right. Yeah. So anyway, I was really involved in investigating and how we came to be exposed to this case, if you will, or get involved with it, actually had to do a Stanton Friedman. Stanton Friedman was in Florida at a conference or giving a speech either at a conference or like a local group meeting, whatever. So, and of course he's talking about crash retrieval stuff. Somebody approached him afterwards at his table and says, Hey, I live in a town where one of my neighbors claim to have been involved in a crash retrieval when he was in the military. And so Stanton, you know, obviously wanted some more information. And the guy basically told him the name of the town and the guy's first name. And that's all Stanton Friedman got from this guy. So Stanton called Bruce Woodaman, who was the state director of Missouri at the time, God rest his soul, and Bruce called myself and two other investigators from the area that, you know, work on things like this, and told us what the information he'd gotten from Stanton. And Bruce and one of the other investigators went to the small town in Missouri and it's north of St. Louis about an hour to an hour and a half drive, kind of out in the middle of nowhere, very, very rural surroundings. And they went to the town and there's like one gas station in the middle of town and they went there thinking, how are we going to find this guy? All we've got is the first name. And so they went into convenience, Mark, figuring that in a small town, everybody knows everybody, right? So they approached the clerk behind the counter and they were talking to him. And they were basically kind of getting nowhere in this other person that just happened to be in the store. Now, I want you to think, as I go through this story, how serendipitous or synchronicistic or weird, even that is. There was one other person in the store at a random time when they showed up. That person approached them and says, Hey, I think I know who that the guy is that you're looking for. And I'll take you up the street to his house. And so they followed the stranger up the street to this random house and banged on the door. This guy comes to the door and they tell him the story and he goes, well, I'm not, I'm not the guy you're looking for, but I might be able to help you find him. And so he came out of the house and sat down and was talking to him and basically kind of interrogating them. And after 15 or 20 minutes, he admitted, I'm the guy you're looking for. Actually, he says, I'm just, didn't, you know, really want to invite him to know, you know, who I was. Right. And so that's how we found him. So then Bruce called myself and the other investigator up that was involved in the case and said, you need to come up here and meet this guy. So we all went up there. We met his, we met the guy we met and his Oscars is his first name, right? So we went up there and met Oscar, we met Oscars mom, got to see where he lived and basically, you know, established a sort of a relationship. We told him we want to come up and, and, you know, investigate what he experienced and he was like, okay, but I don't want anybody to know who I am really. I don't want anybody to know where I'm at. And you can't bring anybody else up here except the four of us without his prior permission. He was really, really guarded about his identity and his location. He said he didn't want any, any weird stuff happening to his family, you know, so we're like, okay, we agreed, no problem. And so that started a seven year long investigation of this case. And myself went up there a lot of times, more than one of us group of four would go up there. And then over time, he also allowed us to bring a few other people into the circle, so to speak. But most of the time, at least two of us would go up there at a time. I don't, I, I never went up there by myself. Let me put it that way. And so over seven years, three to four times a year, I would go up there and visit him. He didn't have a phone. His mother didn't have a phone. And when we ask him about it, he says, I, I basically have never had a phone. And so we're like, well, how can we get in touch with you? And he goes, just show up. And so we literally was like, and I lived in, at the time I lived in Collinsville, Illinois. So to drive to this, it was about a two and a half hour drive to get up there. So I wasn't something I could just pop into, you know, it had to be like, okay, let's go see Oscar today. We had a plan ahead and yeah. And so we drive up there and he was always there whenever we went up to see him, okay, with one exception and I'll tell that story in a minute, he was always there. And no matter what he was doing, he would stop and sit down and talk to us as long as we wanted to talk to him without even acting the least bit put out, his wife would come out of the house and bring us drinks if we were sitting outside when the weather was nice. And so his story is this, this is, this is the story that he, that he told. He was in the military. He was in a Delta Force group that was responsible for crash retrieval. And whenever you say crash retrieval in this sense, you really mean downed aircraft, not necessarily UFOs, okay, it'd be like, so if a fighter jet crashes, his group would be the security force that would go out and cordon off the area so people couldn't get in while the mess was cleaned up. He was stationed at, he was in a group called Turner's Rangers. That was the nickname, because they were led by a Colonel Turner, I think it was a Colonel Turner. And they were, he was stationed at the Countrypack Submarine Base in San Diego. When was this, what years? Late 50s, okay, so 1957, 58, somewhere in that, in that timeframe. And he said, he got the call for him and his group to depart for mission, if you will. And he said, so what they did is they went down several stories below the Comtreypack submarine base to shoot the tubes as the term that he used. And they, what he describes as the tubes were, it's like an underground shuttle system. They're told to take all of their jewelry off. Anything metal that they're carrying has to be taken off and put in a box before they get into this tube shaped shuttle. And this is like three or four stories below ground under the submarine base. They get into the tubes and it would take off underground. And in this particular case, he said he, he left his wristwatch on because he wanted to see how long it took them to get to wherever they were going. So later, he could figure out where that was, because they didn't even tell him exactly where they were going, okay? So it took 20 minutes to go from San Diego to what was something near my not Air Force Base in North Dakota, okay? So if you do the math, that's 4,000 miles an hour, a tube shuttle underground, okay? In the late 50s. All right. So it's like, what, you know, Maglev trains don't do 4,000 miles an hour. So like there's a whole bunch about that that doesn't, you know, by the way, by the way, that does correlate with a few other whistleblowers that have come forward talking about the speed of these trains, actually, Billy Woodard specifically, he was, he worked at the, he was in the Air Force, worked there in 51, he specifically said 4,000 miles per hour. And other people have said 3,000 miles per hour, but either way, that, that does correlate with other testimonies. That's interesting. Thank you for sharing that because I hadn't heard that a particular thing. I just did the math. Oh, yeah. No, yeah. That's actually like specifically the number Billy Woodard used and he was told when he asked how fast is this going and they told him 4,000 miles per hour and I'll, since we're talking about that right now, I'll add this later, you know, as these conversations continued with Oscar over the years, we, you know, try to get him to talk more about the tube system in the shuttles and he said they run all over the place and, I mean, all the way across the continent, basically, and he also later found out that they don't necessarily, all of them don't necessarily travel, travel linearly between one point and another, that they accelerate and then they're actually jumping through a, you know, portal, if you will, that a portal is opened up and they jump through. So that speed can be, you know, either they're really going that fast or they're transverse in that distance by doing some kind of a little interdimensional jump. Right. It makes it even more interesting if you think about it. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, so they get out of the tube, they're in this facility outside, why not Air Force Base, his crew goes into this hangar where there's an intact saucer shaped craft and by his description, basically, it looked like what Bob Lazar, who describes his sport model, you know, a really nice looking flying saucer that was intact. And there was a guy with a bunch of electronics. His name was Dr. Bear, that's what they, that's what they call them anyway, was Dr. Bear. And his job was to work the physics and try and get the thing open. He used ultrasonic sounds, a certain combination of ultrasonic sounds. And Oscar said the side of the ship, like, started to ripple like, like it was liquid. And then it opened like in an iris, you know, fashion to the inside of the craft. He was the squad leader. So he was the first one in to the craft and his team, you know, of armed guys followed him. And when he went on the inside of the craft, he said on the inside of the craft, you could tell that the interior had buckled was the way he put it. It was like when the thing impacted the ground or whatever, the outside stayed intact, but the inside shifted. And when it did, there was a seat like bench-like seat on the side of the craft where there was an alien sitting. And when the interior buckled, it pinched and pinned the leg of the alien that was on board the ship. So he immediately approached this being, which was completely human in appearance. And the being started communicating with him telepathically. And it turns out that Oscar was able to communicate with this being better than anybody else. So he got assigned to be like the liaison between the scientists and the alien. So there was a conversation between the two of them, including where they were from and what kind of distress the alien was in. They came in and they pride the alien's leg loose and took them out. And Oscar looked at the control panel, and there was a star map on the control panel, which he had a hand drawing of that that he had shown us, and that the two primary systems that they were from were touseti and epsilon aerodyne. So we'll get to those two in a minute because that turns out to be significant in the whole story as well. So they took the alien out and the guy who was in charge of this whole project was Frank Drake, according to Oscar. And he did not like Frank Drake. He said the sky was mean and nasty. He treated the alien very, very badly, including, even though the alien, they gave the alien morphine based, you know, painkillers, the typical stuff, did not ease the discomfort of the being. But so even though they couldn't anesthetize the being, they still went ahead and did exploratory surgery. They would just strap the alien down and do exploratory surgery on them anyway. All the thing, well, the being screamed in pain, right? Wow. So he was not real fond of Frank Drake. And so what ultimately happened there within a fairly short period of time, since Oscar was sort of, you know, the liaison, if you will, between the being and everybody else, he was in the room with the alien most of the time. And one time they came in to get to get the alien, which by the way, he nicknamed Hank, which apparently means troubled spirit. So the aliens nickname was Hank. And so they came in to get Hank to take him and do some more experiments on, and Oscar had had enough, and he drew a service revolver at the scientists and said, that's it. You're not going to hurt this being anymore. Get out of here, and as you can imagine, he was removed from the project rather immediately. And he was shipped to a military hospital out east and where he went through three months of very aggressive deprogramming is what he said. When they released him, he was nowhere near the end of his military career, but they honorably discharged him and sent him home. And he was very surprised that they honorably discharged him after all that. So what kind of deprogramming or debriefing did they do? Was what they're like, I think you mentioned, like, electroshock, like torture and sleep deprivation and like a lot of things like that. Yeah. And chemically induced hypnosis and, you know, repeated, like you said, sleep deprivation interrogation, all kinds of stuff, just yeah, I'd be more akin to torture, but they're basically trying to reprogram him and to not believing what he had experienced, if you will, kind of hard to get that out of your head. So it didn't work, obviously. Yeah. Trauma-based mind control, basically. Right. Right. What, what did the alien look like? Was it like a gray type of alien or what? No, it was a completely, yeah, I guess for lack of a better description, it looked like a Nordic, you know, I have a picture I can share the screen real quick. Yeah. I do too, but it'd be easier for you if you want to pull that up because I can talk about the picture too. Okay. Let's do that really quick. Share screen. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. So that's what you look like. Human style haircut is what the way Oscar described it. So it was just sort of a crew cut, short blonde hair. And again, look, you know, human in every way, you wouldn't be able to tell them apart from somebody on the street. Now this is an actual photo, apparently, of the actual being, right? Right. Right. He had, he had, was able to sequester a photograph out of the facility before they, they removed him. He had, he had put it in his personal gear, whatever. And they didn't search it very thoroughly when they sent him away and haste. And so he had the picture. So and there's, there's some controversy behind this picture, which I can, I can talk about also, I don't know if you have the, the other pictures from the magazine article. No, this is the only one. Let me talk for a minute about something. So that's his basic story. So the ongoing part of that is after, after he was released, the race of aliens continued to stay in contact with him. And as far as I know, to this day, they certainly stayed in contact with him as long as we were going up there and investigating and I can tell you one weird story after another, which I will. But they stayed in touch with him. And he also had experiences when he was a child. So there was, there was probably some kind of a connection between them before he actually, you know, was involved in this crash or trouble. But it, one of the funny things, and I'll, I tell this story because I got a kick out of it, I guess, is like, because I asked him one time, I says, well, you've met me once. I came up here and we're talking and like, you know, how can you possibly trust me? You don't know anything about me. And he goes because, because of your UOBs, the following is a high five moment from high five casino.com. I want private, put down your phone. This is the army. So it's high five casinos. It's a social casino. Done your phone goes wherever you go. I win three spins, cash prizes, three down the rewards, over 1200 games. I won again. platoon present cell phone, high five, high five casino, when did high five casino, high five casino was a social casino. No purchase necessary. We're having to play responsible conditions apply, see website for details, high five casino. And I go, what? And he goes, you got connecting earlubs, just like the tau sedians. Oh my God. Okay. Yeah, you're one of them. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Apparently, I don't know, distant relative, I guess, I don't know. Right. Yeah. No, I just said that is interesting, though, that that's why he trusted you. Yeah. Right. Right. And because at one point, you know, fairly early on, I asked him, I said, look, and I write an article about your, your case because one of the other researcher at the time, actually, this was, you know, early nineties at the time, there were only two other researchers out there with tau saidy epsilon erodony cases. They were very, very rare. One of them was Colonel Wendell Stevens, and one of them was Bill Hamilton. Each of them had had investigated cases that involved tau saidy aliens at match the description of Oscar and the taxonomy. Everything was the same. So Wendell and I and Bill Hamilton and I exchanged notes on all these cases because at the time, those were the only three out there that I knew of. And Wendell at the time, he was putting out a magazine for his organization, and he asked me if I were to write an article for it. I go, well, I got to ask Oscar. So Oscar says, yeah, yeah, you can write an article about it. That's okay. Just don't, you know, tell them my real name or where I'm at. And I'm like, oh, I'd never do that, right? So I wrote the article and I took it up to him before I sent it to Wendell and I said, I want you to read this and make sure that every word of it is, you know, approved by you. And he goes, oh, it's okay as is. And I go, you didn't read it. He goes, I don't have to. He said, he said, I know it's, it's all true. And later we came to determine that he actually couldn't read. We were pretty sure that he was, he was very, very illiterate and didn't want to read it because he couldn't. There was never any written material in his house or anywhere in his, in his vicinity. Not even a TV guide, right? It was just, you know, but I'm like, okay, you know, it's, and so we talked about the possibility of there being negative ramifications when that article was published. And there were some. So I sent it to Wendell. Wendell published it shortly after that. He was visited by a couple of obvious government agents, if you will, that had a lot of questions for him and kind of harassed him a little bit, but ultimately didn't, you know, harm him or his family in any way and they went away. But it did cause a rather immediate reaction and, um, prior to that. So what I wanted to, what I want to talk about now is some of the things that we did to verify his story because it's such an incredible story. Just because Wendell and Bill Hamilton had similar stories doesn't mean it's real. It certainly makes it, um, you know, more credible. But so, um, we looked into, um, Frank Drake's military record, Turner's Rangers. We looked into Oscar's military record. We were able to verify that he was in the military during the times that he said we were not able to verify what units he are, where he was stationed and that sort of stuff because it was all secret stuff. Other than we were able to verify the existence of a group called Turner's Rangers and a Colonel Turner and that he was assigned to the unit that Colonel Turner was in charge of. We were able to verify all that. Um, ultimately we were able to find, uh, could, one of the things he said about Professor Bear is he really liked Professor Bear, um, the guy who was the head scientist, if you will, on the, on the thing, um, he said he had a really weird background. He had like a PhD in psychology and a PhD in physics and an engineering background and like a really unusual mix of academic achievements, right? Right. We were actually able to find, um, a Professor Bear as in, you know, like, not Bear as in her, but, you know, German spelling of Bear, uh, who had that kind of a background that had been stationed at like Los Alamos and a couple of other places. We were able to verify that this was in fact a real person and he would, it was stationed in places that would have dealt with things like this. So that was pretty interesting. Um, Frank Drake for a long time denied his, his military career. So I was never in the military. Well, it turns out he was where we were able to prove that and, um, he was on this particular thing. He was supposedly was a civilian contractor, but he was in charge of the whole operation, which is a little unusual. The operation. This is a guy the Oscar didn't like, right? Frank. Right. It's, uh, it's the infamous Frank Drake that everybody out there has probably heard of. Right. Um, he, the name of the project that that all of this was under was called Project Asma. And originally it was OZMA and I maybe get this backwards. Oscar said it was actually OSMA was the real designation, but it was people called it OZMA. And again, I might have the SMZ clip here. One was real and one was sort of a mistaken identity, but that was the project that the government had for searching for extraterrestrial intelligence prior to SETI. So Frank Drake turned over, they, they took the OZMA project. They went public with it, turned it over to Carl Sagan and rebranded it as SETI. That's the same project. Okay. Interestingly enough, does anybody want to guess what the first two stars were that SETI looked at when they went public and announced all of this stuff with, you know, with Carl Sagan. Carl said, yeah, no study in Epsilon, Aradani of all the stars out there in the sky that they can pick to look at. Um, those were the two that oddly enough, those were the two that they picked, right? So we were able to verify those sort of nuts and bolts details behind everything, which and we were also able to find which hospital he was sent to out east and that it was in fact a military hospital that had sort of very special use, not just like, oh, you got shot in battle. He was sent to this hospital, it was more a psych hospital where he was debriefed. So did you, you also, I know you mentioned you verified the submarine base and just recently as a matter of fact, I mean, I don't know that it was ever a secret that that was there, but the fact that there was an underground structures underneath it. The person that I verified that with was someone who was actually had actually been stationed at that base and was unaware of the, of the submarine operation when he was there and that would, that would have been in the last 15 years and also verify the underground structure of it. Right. So. And you also mentioned bringing photos to Oscar and having them go through and I didn't. Oh yeah. Yeah. Thank you. That's where I was going with that. Yeah. Because again, it was one of these he was so isolated that, you know, it wasn't one of these like you could rattle off names of popular people and he would have no idea who they were. Right. So we took pictures up there one time and one of the pictures in the stack was Frank Drake. And then there are a bunch of other pictures of other UFO researchers and TV celebrities and just, you know, random folks, if he will, and we handed in the stack of pictures and we said, please go through these pictures. And, and if there's anybody in here that you recognize, tell us what you know about them. Right. And so he went through the stack now, now, and when he got to Frank Drake's picture, he, the, his whole face changed. He got visibly upset. He threw the picture on the table and he goes, that's the son of a bitch that was in charge of that project. That's the guy that ordered all the surgery on Hank and I was Frank Drake's picture. Sounds like, okay, all right. And I can also tell you after, I don't know if I mentioned this at the Xcon, that after that article was published in Wendell Stevens magazine, I started getting some mysterious calls from people who were like, Oh, yeah, that Frank Drake, that son of a gun, you know, I, I want to, I want to, you know, embarrass him and I want to hurt him, you know, what else can you tell me? And I was like, that's all I know, man. I don't, you know, just what was in the article, that's, that's it. And after, after the second phone call, I got like that within a couple of weeks, I, I basically put, put out some, you know, inquiries to some folks I knew, especially in California because both these guys were from California and, you know, what I found out back from some of my UFO colleagues was, yeah, well, those, both of those, those people that you told us about are actually on Frank Drake's payroll and they work for him and they're very, very close friends of his. And I'm like, Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. So they were like his minions sent to get information, see what you knew about him trying to see what else I knew, if there's anything, you know, hard evidence that I had that could make, you know, Mr. Drake look terrible, you know, acting like they didn't know who are they. Yeah. Hey, we hate them too, you know, yeah, yeah. And so yeah, I might look down, but I'm not right. So after, after his three months at the hospital, the military hospital, and he gets back home. So what happens after that? Well, for the most part, he went on with his life, but one thing that he did was he had told his father everything that was going on. And his father was like, Hey, well, let's go out there and see if we can find out, you know, what happened to Hank. And so they went to North Dakota where they knew this facility was and they hiked into the area and knowing full well that if they hiked into this secure area, that they would be picked up by security patrols, which they were. And Oscar, of course, knew the security patrols because they might even have been guys that were on his squad. I mean, you know, they were, you know, that was his job was to hold security around place like this. And so they ran into security and security knew him and he says, look, you know, I've been, I've been removed from military service. I just want to know what happened to Oscar, I mean, what happened to Hank, sorry. And the guy told him, well, about three weeks after you were removed out of here, he died. And as a consequence of all this experimental surgery. And so he's like, okay. So a side channel on this whole case is years later, I had talked about this case before at conferences back in the 90s, I was approached by another researcher who lives in that part of the country and had researched some cases up there. And they knew somebody that was at that bay, they had investigated a case of somebody that worked at that base also knew about not so much about Oscar specifically, but about Hank and about that crash retrieval case and had a whole nother side to this story. And that that side that what they told me was that that the Tal city aliens were pissed off that we had acquired their craft and also when the thing originally craft, there were two dead aliens found outside the craft and then Hank found live on board the craft. So they had three bodies. The Tal city aliens came down to the base up there and met with the military and said, we want the bodies back. And the military refused to give the bodies back. And they said that there was some sort of a forcible altercation between the aliens and the military and the aliens acquired the bodies back and left. So that's another very wild story to go along with this. Right. And it's amazing that you got that. I mean, there's no coincidence here and there's no, it's no accident that all this information found its way to you and you're telling this story now, because there's just so much to it more than halfway through like there's a whole other part to this like I'm excited to get into. Yeah, that we're, this is sort of the nuts and bolts of the story, the really odd stuff. Let's see what story should I tell first? Well, yeah, these synchronicities, I don't think anything happens by accident anyway. So can we talk about the other was this the case of Jill that was that who you're talking about that there's another case. No, so that yeah, I guess we can talk about that now before we segue into the latter half of this. Yeah, sure. Yeah, that's a good idea. So I was Illinois State Director at the time, and I was investigating some cases in Springfield, Illinois. And one of them was a woman named Jill that had abduction experiences, had like ongoing abduction experiences. She had some men in black kind of stuff going on, you know, it was a pretty interesting case, but it was pretty atypical gray interaction until she told me this one story. So like we went through in detail the sort of these, the trigger signals when she knew she was going to be abducted. And one of the things they did with her is she would get these signals and then she would know to get in her car and drive to this nearby like city park in Springfield where they would land and and abduct her and do whatever they were doing. But it was typical little graves. And and she said, she said, except one time I went out to the park, I had the typical signals that I went out to the park, but a different kind of spaceship landed. And these beings got out of the craft and they didn't paralyze me and drag me on board and they looked just like you and me and they they invited me on board to ship and they explained to me that they really, really don't like what the grays are doing with us, especially like the forcible interactions and that sort of thing. And they asked her how did she felt about it and she goes, yeah, I don't like it either. And they go, well, we can we can tell you how to sort of ward them off. So they'll leave you alone and they explained to her this meditative technique where she needed to be able to picture some figure that was really, really influential to her. You know, it could be a religious figure, it could even be a sports figure, just somebody that she really is, you know, holds in high regard and then first thing is think of that person who inspires her and then imagine this energy field, like an egg, if you will, encompassing her whole body. And so like when she gets these trigger signals, she would go through this process is what they told her to do. And then if you do that, they're not going to be able to penetrate that mental field, if you will, of high inspirational energy. And so I said, Oh, I said, well, their craft looked different. They looked different. What it looked like. So she described the typical, you know, sport model kind of craft. And she said, well, they looked, she's, and she used these words too. She said, they look kind of like Romans. And she said, they had sort of like an olive colored scan. They all had these short crew cuts. And they looked, she said, they looked bulkier than a normal person, like not fat, but just like really solid, you know, linebacker kind of really, really fit, you know. And so she she described that and I go, well, what did they tell you anything about who they were or, you know, that sort of thing. And she said, they told me they were they were from, but she says, I don't know anything about astronomy. So I don't know if I'm saying the star, the names of the stars, right. And I go, what were they? And she said, tauci tie. I go, tau cetti, she goes, yeah, yeah, that's it. But she would say tauci tie because of the way it spelled or whatever. Right. So it's like, okay, well, that's interesting and matched everything about them match the description of Oscar and the picture. And again, if you take and draw a straight line from Springfield, Illinois, straight across into Missouri, you're not very far, it might only be, you know, 50 miles from Springfield to the town where, where Oscar lived. So they're in the neighborhood, just decided to go help this lady, you know, which was very interesting. Right. So yeah, yeah, yeah, nothing happens by accident, right, how am I going to happen to. So let's talk about, so Oscar continued contact, he maintained contact with the taucettians, right. And there's a whole, upon, you know, your seven years of visiting, you discovered that he was still in communication. And there's some really interesting stories along the way. And even a child that that might have been like a hybrid child or a taucettian. So can we, you know, go into some of that? Yeah. Yeah. Because that's a pretty, you know, there's one claim like, yeah, I was in the military, I was involved in a crash retrieval. That's all still very nuts and bolts. But to have somebody go, yeah, the aliens are still in contact with me, you know, regularly. It's like, okay, well, I want to see some proof of that for sure, right? Right. Well, I can tell you after going out there for seven years, I have absolutely no doubt that this man was telling the truth. Not only just because of everything else about him, but every single time we would go out there, something weird would happen. We would see things. We would have weird synchronicities happen. And we would, you know, cite UFOs for that matter. So let's see. And there's, there's a bunch of these stories. So I'm trying to remember the ones that I told at the conference, we can. You told one, you were there with another person and you guys both saw something. But when you compared notes, you saw something different. I think, yes, so you can tell that. Yeah. I'll tell you that one. Yeah, it was one out there was meeting with him. It had gotten, we were sitting out, a lot of times we sat outside. His house was really not a pleasant place to go in. It was not well kept. You did not want to use the bathroom. Okay. This was very, very poor rural living, you know. So most of the time we would sit outside if we could unless it was just freezing cold. And so myself, one of the other researchers, we were sitting out the back of his house and his backyard basically was kind of a junkyard, his backyard, like, went away from the house for several acres and it was like wooded, but there were lots of old rusty cars. And then there was a tree line in the back of his, his property. And so we were sitting facing him, he had his back to his backyard. And so we're looking at him and we're talking to him and there were, there was a lot of conversations that were had over the years where he would be asking us questions and kind of testing our response to different ideas or different possible experiences. And this was one of those kind of things, one of those kind of conversations. And from the tree line in the distance, it had to have been at least a mile away, maybe a little bit more. This bluish white light, just very iridescent blue white light came up from behind the trees in the distance and just stopped in the sky. And this object was, you know, five or more times as bright as Venus on a good night. It was a very, very bright, like significantly brighter than anything else in the sky. Only thing that could have competed to it with it if it was up would have been a full sun. I mean, it was just really, really bright. And it just stopped in the sky and, you know, it's like, oh, what, you know, is that one of them? And, you know, I set that into Oscar and he looks and goes, yeah, that's, that's them. And I go, well, tell them to come closer so we can, you know, get a better look at their craft or whatever like that. And he goes high five casino high five casino is a social casino with real prizes and big as hits at high five casino dot com the hottest games right from Vegas and all winnings go straight to your bank account hundreds of exclusive games free daily rewards and come back to get free coins every four hours only at high five casino dot com. High five casino is a social casino. No purchase necessary void. We're prohibited. Play responsibly terms in addition supply. See website for details at high the number five casino dot com high five casino. You know, their outcome closer if they want to or or not, you know, they're really just kind of testing your reaction to them being there right now and we're like, oh, that's really cool. And the object started doing like in UFO investigative lore, we call it that team maneuver. This is something that was been very commonly reported over the years where the object goes back and forth like this across the sky, then it goes down and it comes back up and it goes back and forth like this. And that goes on for 15, 20 minutes and we're talking about this thing. The other researcher was sitting a couple of feet to my to my right and eventually it went down, blow the trees and didn't come back up and it was like, well, okay. And so then we kind of wrapped up our conversation with Oscar, we get in the car to leave. We're driving back and I turned to this this other investigator and I go, wasn't that cool that that blue light that we saw in the sky and they're like, what blue light? And I go, you know, the thing that came up from behind the trees and was doing it, you know, and I go, I didn't see a blue light. I'm like, what? And I go, no, it was a very large, very distinct disc shaped metallic craft and yeah, it was glowing, but it was a flying saucer classic, you know, and so I'm sitting two or three feet to the to the left of this person. And I all I saw was an iridescent blue light. So I felt a little cheated. Okay. I got the earlobes. Why didn't they? Let me see. So, you know, but by Oscar's rendition, that's basically it's like, you're they're going to let you see what they think, you know, you can handle, so to speak, and so, uh, and you know, I've heard, I've heard that more than once from from, uh, some very experienced investigators as well. And so including speaking them at all, because a lot of cases where multiple people are in the same area, only one or it's only certain of the people will actually see the craft. Yeah. Right. There there. And that's one of those data points we can extrapolate from this story is they have the ability to manipulate our perception. Absolutely. However, they want and, uh, and there and at the same time, they're able to measure our reaction to that perception and then alter it accordingly. Right. Right. I've heard very similar stories from Bigfoot researchers. Um, and I had a conversation with Dr. Harley Rutledge back in the day. If you're if you recall, Dr. Rutledge was very involved in the Piedmont UFO stuff and I had had some sightings when I was a teenager and was camping in Missouri, um, where it became obvious to me that the way I put it to him was they knew we were looking at them. And this is a physics professor says, I'll, I'll give you one better. You're not going to see them unless they want you to. That was based on his experience spending many, many hours down at Piedmont, watching UFOs. Exactly. Yeah. So when you were talking to Oscar, I mean, did he explain to you what his interactions were like with these beings after, you know, after he's been back home and, and how he would, how he would interact with them. What was that like? Was he leaving and going on their craft and coming back like can you extrapolate on that? Yeah. I, I, I did not get the impression ever that he was going on the craft very often. If he did, it was rare. Um, I do know of one occasion where what he said led us to believe that he was on the craft and came back and, uh, most of the time it was just, you know, telepathic communication, if you will, maybe out of body stuff, but, um, they're, I'll, I'll tell the dowsing story in a minute about, um, you know, where he would go to be in touch with them, but one of the, one of the times we want to see him, and this was a really, really interesting experience too, was myself, Bruce Wooderman, and, um, this woman named Debbie, which is the, um, the primary subject of the dowsing story that I'll tell on a minute. Actually, maybe I should tell that one first because she's not in the picture until after that. So let me rewind. I'm sorry. I'm trying, trying to keep it a little tyrannological. So Oscar, um, and actually this is perfect, uh, lead in to him communicating because he told us how he had come to live in this house, which is also a really weird story. He said, heaven is, heaven is wife and is in his kid, but kids, kid, he had a son, I know, they were living on another house nearby, these, these people came to his house and they said, Hey, um, we live in this house over here and we want to give it to you. And he's like, what, why would you give me a house? And he says, because we were told that you're supposed to live there. You know, it's like what? And they're, yeah. And he went over and he looked at the piece of property and even though where he lived there was nothing glorious, it was better to where he was at, I guess. And he's like, okay. And they signed the deed to the house over to him and disappeared and he never heard from him again. And so the aliens explained to him that he, you know, needed to live there because it was easier for them to get in touch with him in that location. And that was because there were lay lines on the property. There were three lay lines that intersected. So there were three intersections that formed a triangle on his property and that that intersection of those energy lines made it much easier for them to interact with him. And we're like, Oh, that's interesting. Well, where, where do these lay lines run and he took us out in the yard and he goes, well, there's an intersection right over here and there's one down there and then there's one over there. And then the place that I go to contact them is through that tree line. There's a little pasture over there. And I go over there and I sit in the grass and we talk, well, okay, that's interesting. So this other case that I was, I was working on in Granite City, my lady's name is Debbie. And she was having pretty classic gray experiences. There were a little, there was a bit more going on than just that with her. And she told us one time she goes, Oh, yeah, by the way, after I started having these experiences, I realized that I could dows, let I know I'm a really good dowser. Okay. And so I got, I got this crazy idea. I know where there's three intersecting lay lines. And I've got somebody who's claiming to be a really good dowser, let's put them together, right? Right. So without asking Oscars permission ahead of time, I took Debbie up there one day and it was the only time that I had gone like during the week and in the middle of the day, usually we'd go, you know, on a Saturday afternoon or something. And I just showed up at his house, knocked on the door, his wife came to the door. And I explained, you know, I, I, I, oh, let me premise this, Debbie knew absolutely nothing about the Oscar case. She knew nothing about Oscar. She had no idea. I said, bring your dowel rods, we're going to go have some fun. And I did not tell her where we were going or what we were up to when we got there. So his wife came and I said, this is somebody I wanted to introduce to Oscarsy here. And she's like, no, he's at work, you know, and I go, Debbie is a dowser. Do you mind if we walk around the property? And she was like, no, go ahead, you know, whatever you want to do. And she turned us loose. And so I just told Debbie, I just said, dows, this is what am I looking for? And I go, do you tell me what you find? I mean, I was keeping it as abstract as I could get, right? And so she gets her rods out and she goes, oh, there's a lay line here. Oh, there's an intersection. She nailed all three of the lay lines and the three intersections without problem at all. And then we started cutting across the property to go to the back lay line. And she walked out in through the trees into this sort of pasture, a glade area. And again, remember, she knew nothing about Oscar or what we were doing there. She walked in the middle of this field and she lowered her dowsing rods to her side and she goes, my God, this is where he comes to talk to the aliens, isn't it? It's like, what did you say? Yeah. And she says, I'm standing right here. She says, I can, there's this open portal and just information just coming down right here. And it was in the exact spot where he said he went out there to contact the aliens. Well, that's confirmation right there. Right. That's amazing. Oh, yeah. But double confirmation. Yes. She's a good browser. And yeah. So next time we went up, we took Debbie with us so she could meet Oscar and vice versa. And so we went up. It was nighttime and was Bruce and I and Debbie, we went up there and we pull into his house and the house is dark. I mean, like dark, there's no porch light on. You can't even see any lights through the windows, not so much as a coffee pot light is on the house. It's like the power is off. Right. And I'm like, oh man, there's no cars in the driveway. We're like, Oh, dang. So first time we've come up here and he's never been here, you know. And um, Debbie was like, he's here, go up there and knock on the door. I was like, no, he's not. Nobody's here. And she goes, just go knock on the door. He's here. I know he is. Like, okay. So I go up and I'm banging on the door. And a couple of times, a couple of times, banging on the door. She's like, keep knocking, knocking on the door. Finally, after about five minutes, he opens the door and he goes, Oh, hi. He says, let me get a, let me get a shirt on. I'll, I'll be right out. And so he throws on a flannel shirt and he comes out and in the meantime, while I was knocking on the door, Bruce and Debbie are sitting in the car in the, on the driveway right up by the house there and they see this glow inside the house and basically it looked like a, um, like a glow stick kind of glow that, that kind of pale green, just real soft light that it just appeared in one of the, the windows, which is probably a bedroom and then it moved through the house. You could see it go from like window to window and move around and then right before he opened the door, I could see it in the, in the window next to where the door was and, but it was just kind of a glow and he opens the door and so he comes out and he sits down. And so now we're questioning them about, well, it didn't seem like you're home. He goes, well, I wasn't well, you came and answered the door, right? You know, he goes, yeah, well, I wasn't really here when you guys got here, but they put me back real quick so I can meet with you. Okay. Put me back. Yeah, they put me back so I can meet with you like, okay. Yeah. All right. Well, that was nice of them as we drove all the way up here. Right. So, so we're sitting at a picnic table. I'm sitting directly across from, from Oscar Bruce is sitting next to him, Debbie is sitting next to me. So if you keep that significant for the, for the, some of the parts of the story here. So while we're talking to him, now it's pitch black more like, well, there's no lights and goes, yeah, he says, my wife forgot to pay the power bill and they shut it off. It's like, and this, this was fairly typical of these guys, you know, just stuff like that. Like, oh, yeah, we don't really care about anything normal. People carry about to the point where they shut our power off. Right. Right. So we're sitting in, in the dark and it's a nice star field so we could see each other, but not, you know, it wasn't bright enough where you could read, but you could see each other, you know, okay, in the starlight, if you will. And at one point, where while we're talking to him, I'm looking at him straight on. What I see is the best way to describe this is if you took a projector and you projected the image of somebody's face over the top of Oscar's face. So it was, I can, you know, and this is three feet in front of me, looking at his face and it's a different, I can still see his face, but it's, there's this, and it was this sort of pale green glow, but it was a different face. And while I'm, so at first I don't say anything, I'm just going to watch them and see how this goes, right? Then the faces start changing as if you had a slide projector and you were just flipping changes to a different face, to a different face every couple of seconds, it goes through about maybe six or seven different faces and then it repeats the same faces over and over again. And so I look over at Debbie and I'm elbow and hurry and I'll go on, but you seeing this and she's like, yeah, and she's like, yeah, I can see it, I can see it. And Bruce is like, what are you guys talking about? And I go this green glow over, over Oscar's face and Oscar's just said they're chuckling, right? He knows. Right. And so Bruce is right next to him. Bruce is looking at him and he's like, well, I'm not seeing any faces. He says, but I do see this weird green glow like in the air right in front of Oscar's face. So like if we're looking this way, you could, you could see an image, but from the side, it was just a little like, you know, sliver of glow, green glow or whatever. And so we're like, what, you know, what's going on and Oscar says, well, that's the, that's the crew members on board the ship that I was on. And you know, they're interacting with you basically, it's sort of like their way of saying hi, you know, and you could tell that was a male, that was a male about 55. That was a male about 40. That was a female. Now, you know, it was male and female. I think there were two female crew members and, and maybe four or five male varying ages. It was that clear of a, of an image that you can see. Well, about this time, all of a sudden, and if you've ever, if you've never felt this, it's definitely one of the creepiest things you'll feel we're out in a country. Okay. And there's crickets and frogs in every manner of outdoor sound, you know, just this cacophony of animal sounds, I'm going on all the time while we're sitting there and all of a sudden dead silence. All the critters stopped making all noise. It was deafening silence. And then within a few seconds of that, every dog within 50 miles of this place just starts going crazy. I mean, just barking like, you know, somebody's trying to steal your baby, kind of just, just angry, violent barking going on in every dog in the neighborhood, if you will. And then we hear this sound coming from the sky. And it was, this is the best way that I can describe it. It was like, so it kind of sounded like a, like a jet, but not really. It was a much sort of deeper, broader sound. And it was coming from this part of the sky. And so like, I look up to where the sound is coming from, Bruce turns around and looks up to where the sound is coming from him and I can't see anything, so you can, you know, you look up there, you think you should see something because you can hear this big sound coming from the sky. Okay. And we're like, what's that? He's like, well, that's, that's a ship. And I was like, I can't see anything, you know, and he's like, sorry. What to tell you? You know, you can't see anything. And Debbie's sitting here and she's like, I can see it. I can see it. She gets real agitated. And we're like, well, what does it look like? And she goes, I can't even describe it. She said it's massive, it's huge. It looks like a floating city. And later, she pulled the drawing out of, I think it was Lisa Dusenberry's book, where she had done a bunch of drawings for, you know, different experiences of the things that they saw. She's an artist. So she, and one of them, it was it, and Debbie, we're like, well, what do you mean it looks like a plank city? She goes, it looks like Detroit, but it's flying in the sky. So we nicknamed it the Detroit ship. And she later looked at a similar drawing from somebody else and said, that's what it looked like. And basically, if you took like a downtown cityscape and turned it upside down and it's flying across the sky, and whatever it was was, she says, I can't even see both sides of it. It's so big. Cross love. All right. Well, that was interesting. What have the many experiences we had when we go up to see Oscar, right? I mean, that's just proof that like these massive mothershifts can be right before, you know, and I know we just talked about that. But to have an experience like that, we're, you know, all of you, all of you see and experience something different, but it's that massive. I mean, I don't know, it's very fascinating to me. So what happened with the child that was there in the time you visited? Okay. Yeah. That was interesting. Today, summertime we go up there, we're sitting outside again, right out there in the yard. And this, this kid, very fair child blonde hair, you know, blue eyes kind of a, and I want to say the kid was maybe, you know, four or five somewhere in that, in that age bracket, three four or five somewhere in there boy comes sort of out of the house and was, was playing around comes over and jumps in Oscar's lap and starts talking to Oscar in a language that I have never heard, I don't claim to be a linguistics expert of any kind, but we've all heard dozens of different languages. It sounded like nothing I've ever heard before. But, and you think, well, it was just a kid, he was just making up some words, you know, it wasn't that because he was forming sentences and talking to Oscar and Oscar started answering the kid back in whatever this language was. And the kid would get up and play for a little bit and come back and sit down in his lap again and listen to us and then ask some questions or talk, you know, and we, we ask him, like what's, this is not your kid, right? You know, you babysitting and he goes, well, kind of, he said, they asked me to, to, you know, foster this child for a while and teach them some, some, you know, earth ways, if you will. I go, you know, are you, are you saying that this is an alien kid and he's like, yeah, that's what I'm saying. And we're like, okay, that's pretty weird. I mean, and then we, we came back later that same summer. So it was, you know, maybe a month or two, we came back and the kid wasn't there anymore. And we're like, Hey, what happened to the kid? I guess, oh, they came back and got him. There's not so much. Yeah, just matter of fact, like, yeah, that's what, that's one of the things I do. I mean, imagine if you're living a lifestyle like that and you're going up on these craft and you're communicating with another race and like, who knows what the visuals were like, who knows what he was seeing. But I mean, no wonder you wouldn't want to clean your house like, like I've got screwed, screwed that cares about this, right, yeah, it would, it certainly would shift your priorities, wouldn't it? Yeah. So, I guess it's not worried about getting sick. Yeah. Um, so this leads into the whole, uh, story where he got hurt at work and, and this is kind of where I want to end on that whole story. Cause I think it's actually the most significant part of the story. And it kind of shows what's actually going on in the field of mythology and disclosure and how it can be infiltrated. Yeah. So, yeah, he had a regular day job, I mean, the, I think the whole time that we knew him, he worked at like a tractor, either assembly or repair business, you know, up in that area. And he was at work one day, he was on a ladder. He fell off the ladder by his, his, you know, recollection or whatever, he only fell from a couple of steps. It wasn't like, you know, a 12 foot ladder. Um, and minor injuries, kind of a thing, but since he was older and, uh, he, you know, complained that his hips hurt or whatever, they said, we'll just lay there. We're going to get an ambulance. He's like, I'm fine. I'm fine. They call that an ambulance anyway. The following is a high five moment from high five casino.com. I won. Yeah. I got him. And they took him. They didn't take him to a nearby hospital. They took him all the way into St. Louis, um, to this specific hospital in St. Louis. And the way we found out about this accident was his wife called us. They had, they actually did have a phone installed for about three months and then they wouldn't pay that bill. And they shut that off too, but she called us and she was frantic, um, that they've taken Oscar, you know, and I can't get into seeing him and it's like what? And so we, um, we actually met with her and tried to go and find out what was going on with them. They had taken him to this hospital. The first odd thing was minor injuries, right? For falling off of a ladder that would not allow any visitors, including his immediate family to see him or talk to him for over a month. They kept him in isolation in this hospital until he got out. We had no idea what was going on, but she was freaking out to no end. Of course, finally, after a month, they release him and, um, he, he says, yeah, well, he says, they weren't real concerned about my hip once they got me in there. He says they did all kinds of crazy stuff to him, which included, you know, giving him all kinds of different drugs and interrogating him and all kinds of stuff like that. And he says, I know they scrambled my brain was one of the things he said. And we're like, Oh, we hope not. Uh, but he goes, I know they scrambled my brain and he, he was trying to act normal, but there was definitely something different about him. Um, interestingly enough, one of the original four investigators used a data girl who was a nurse at that hospital and he contacted her and she pulled the file and made copies of some of Oscar's, um, files and gave them to us. And it included this giant list of psychoactive drugs that they gave him, including lithium and other stuff, um, you know, sodium, penithol, you know, whatever, just the stuff that you would never give anybody because they bruise their hip, right, a bunch of these psychoactive compounds. Uh, and then, uh, that investigator also was able to find out through his contact inside that hospital is frequently used by the government and by the military for, you know, special psychological, um, treatments and stuff like that, that wasn't something that the general population knew about that particular hospital. So that was, uh, that was disturbing. Can you share which hospital it was or, um, I don't, I don't have notes in front of me. Okay. I can, yeah, but it's in the, yeah, it's in here in, here in St. Louis, um, it's not one of the big ones that you would be able to, you know, think of, it's not like Barnes or anything. Yeah. Yeah. I'm saying Luke's are barn. Yeah. No, it's. Yeah. I, uh, like I say, I got, I've got some of the copies of that stuff in my, in my file. I just don't have it in front of me. So I'll let you guys know, you know, what that is after the fact, um, but, uh, so yeah. So anyway, one of the interesting things about that was so we're like, well, okay. So we start, one of the things we did with him over the years to be good investigators is we would over time ask him the same questions that we did maybe two years ago to see if we got the same answers from him. And he was always 100% consistent over time with the answers he would give to different questions. And so now it's like, well, okay, wait, we know that he's, they scrambled your brain. So what about this? What about that? So we started going through some more questioning with him. And he was answering a lot of the questions very, very differently than he had for the past seven and a half years. And one of the things was he always, like I told you at the beginning here, he always wanted to remain in total isolation. He never, cause we, you know, I was the state director of Illinois Mufan. I had a monthly meeting and every so often I would ask him, Hey, will you come in and talk, you know, at my monthly, uh, Mufan meeting, he's like, no, absolutely not. I will not speak at conferences or meetings or anything. I will talk to you guys here at my house. And that's it. And he refused all invitations from all of us to, to speak out elsewhere. And without us even asking, he goes, Oh, by the way, I can come and give talks now. And we're like, what? He goes, yeah, you guys always wanted me to come and give a talk at your meeting. Well, I would gladly do that now. And, uh, I was like, Oh, okay, cool. So we scheduled, you know, meeting come up next month. We went and got him. We brought him into the meeting. We've been talking about this case at the, at the Mufan meetings for years and people love to hear updates on it, right? And I go, guess what? We finally got to get Oscar here to talk, man. And so we packed them in and we brought them in there. And I stood in the back of the room and I listened to him talk with my mouth hanging open because he, um, contradicted like some of these key philosophies and tenants that he had, that he had stuck by for seven years. He was just very, very erratic in, in what he was talking about and how he was talking about it and what was important. And, uh, I mean, it was, it was very, I mean, there were people that were there that had been hearing us talk about him for years that were literally turning around and looking at me at the back of the room, like, yeah, I'm just like, I couldn't believe it. I mean, it was, it was horrible. So like what just like, like, was he paying the ETS in a different light? Like was saying that they were negative? Was he changing his story? He was, he was painting the, he was painting the ETS in a different light. He was painting the government in a different light. And also the things like he was very, very much a, I love everything and everybody kind of guy. Okay. I mean, he, you know, he had a weird way with animals. We'd be out there talking to him and deer would just come out of the woods and walk up to him. Okay. Raccoons. I mean, it was just he had this magnetism with animals. Right. He wouldn't, he would not, he wouldn't smash a tarantula if it was on his face, right? It was just, and as far as humans were concerned, he wouldn't allow anybody that went up there to talk badly about any race, creed, color. He was very, very much, we had one of the investigators that went up there, or lack of a better way to put it was kind of racist, I guess, and he would, he would regularly make off color comments. And if we would just go, oh, no, because when he would do that, Oscar would stop and give this guy a 20 minute lecture about everybody on earth is beautiful and we're all the same and we're loving creatures of, of the creator and what, you know, I mean, and whenever he gave this talk, he said more than one very disparaging thing about different races and creeds of people in, in that talk, to the point where we were flabbergasted, we just couldn't believe it. So whatever they did to him at that hospital, they definitely scrambled his brain. And that was also when we stopped officially investigating his case. We went up one last time to try and talk to him and he had moved out of the town he originally lived in as the house burned down. That was also under mysterious circumstances. After all this, it had come to light. I don't even think I said that at the ex-con thing. No, that's wild, but they were, they were away one day and they came back and their house was completely destroyed in the fire. And there, there was investigations of arson. And I don't know that they ever pinned it on anybody, but he had to move. And so we, we went and we found where we thought he lived. And this, this is a real interesting little aside. We weren't sure. We drove around this neighborhood where, where he had told us at least we think we had found it. We weren't positive. So we went back to this, you know, like a convenience mart next to the highway where the exit was to go up by his neighborhood or whatever. And we went in there to talk to the, to the clerk, you know, that's where this story began, right? So we figured, well, that guy will probably know, especially if somebody new moved into the neighborhood from a neighboring town, they would know that. So we went in there, we're talking to this guy and a, a cop, a local cop comes in, he comes up to the counter and is over here in us having this conversation with the clerk and the cop goes, I know that guy you're talking about, he just moved into town not very long ago and he's a neo-Nazi. That was the cop's response to us. It's like, he didn't really know who we were talking about, but he, you know, that's, that was, that was his, that was his response. And whenever Oscar had got out of that hospital, he said that that's what they kept calling me while I was in there. They kept telling me that I was a neo-Nazi. What does that mean? Right? Like they were programming them. Right. And then when he gave a speech at our UFO group, I would go, yeah, that's the kind of stuff that was coming out of his mouth that you would expect a neo-Nazi to say. So it was like, so they programmed him to be a neo-Nazi, basically. Yeah. Yeah. And they put out the word to the local magistrate there, that, that's what he was and to watch out for him. So the whole thing, you know, yeah, you want to know what, what they're capable of doing, or at least what they were. God forbid, I hope it's changing now. Yeah. I still, another long story about why I think this, there are different factions inside of our government. There's a faction that wants everybody to know what's going on with aliens. There's another faction that doesn't want anybody to ever know what's going on with aliens. And there's some that don't care, they're just trying to make money. And then there's some that are on the fence in between those factions. I believe still exist within our government, even though disclosure is happening now, there's still going to be opposing forces within our own government to all the whistle-blowing and all of the efforts. High five casino high five casino is a social casino with real prizes and big Vegas hits at high five casino.com. The hottest games right from Vegas and all the winnings go straight to your bank account. Hundreds of exclusive games, free daily rewards, and come back to get free coins every four hours, only at high five casino.com. High five casino is a social casino. No purchase necessary, boy prohibited, play responsibly, terms of addition supply, see website for details at high the number five casino.com. High five casino. People like, you know, Lou Elizondo and Sean Call Hill and these guys, and Grudge, you know, there's going to be people that are going to try and stop that while they're, I hope, that the effort to get it out is bigger, that the people that want it out are more powerful than the ones that don't. Yeah, that's, I mean, you're always going to have that in any situation. But, I mean, what a shame. Like, I almost wonder if somehow they even manipulated the fall, so they could take them to the hospital. And those circumstances, like, you know, it's illegal, essentially, you know, what they did. And, and for him to come back a different person, and then the house gets burned down, he's forced to move. I mean, what a way that silence such a beautiful case, you know, such a beautiful person. And it's a shame. It's a shame that that's what happened because, you know, we see people in this field. We've been interviewing people for five years. And we see a shift in people sometimes. And people will change their story. And like, wait, that's not the same guy that we heard at the beginning when he started coming out. And that's happened with a number of people. And this is, this is one of the cases where it's provable. Like, you can almost prove that that's what they did. And they do this to people. So why wouldn't they do it to other people? And they might have more sophisticated techniques now where you don't have to be in a hospital, you know, who knows what they can do. But I think it's crucial to point that out. And I think that's one of the ways they're going to try to control disclosure. But like he said, hopefully, they're not doing the going to such extremes like they were. Yeah, I hope not either. Because I think a lot of things that they've done in the past are just flat out cruel, you know, and I'm in mind control. And my manipulation is, you know, sort of a violation of every right we have as an as a sentient being, you know, but, you know, there's, there's, there's ways to do it, I guess, are less invasive. But this time around, I have the feeling, and I've had this conversation with, with my buddy Sean, that, that what's different this time about disclosure. Okay, would they still do this to Oscar now? And I even asked the question is like, if if Carl Sagan and Frank Drake were alive today, would they jump on the bandwagon and talk? Or would they, you know, continue to, you know, lie and stay in the background? I'd like to think that they would talk because things have changed, you know, but I think this time is different because I've always contended that the government is never going to tell us what's going on unless they have to. It's not their job to scare us or to tell us about something they really can't control or explain. So we should have never expected the government to tell us anything unless they have no choice. So if that, if we play that thought out, what has changed now, where they have no choice, they have to get us ready for something open contact. I think it's coming. Yeah, I think that that's what is happening now. And I think that's why the cat can't be put back in the bag is because they've got to get us ready because the aliens are changing their agenda. And we have to be ready for it or, you know, it's very clear that something shifted and either their hand has been forced. I mean, no matter what, like all of a sudden the subject that they've ridiculed for decades is just all of a sudden real. So something shifted. And I agree with you that not that they want to do it, but they have to do it for whatever reason that is. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. Is there any last words you'd like to leave us with or let our audience know where they can follow your work or anything like that? I think that was good a word of wisdom as I can give you now. And I don't really, I don't have a website or anything like right now. I've been, I did a lot of, you know, presenting and some writing and stuff back in the 90s and then it have kind of got away from it. And I've got 12 year old twins right now. So if you want to know what I'm doing, they're in the other room being quiet because I told them to. They're wonderful about their crazy UFO dad. So I don't have a website or anything like that right now. But, you know, I mean, I can, I can give out my email address if you don't have to do that. I'm just curious. Oh, really quick. This is something I wanted to ask you. So the picture of Hank, there was some controversy around it and it showed up in some other like magazines and stuff. Can you tell that story really quick? I forgot about that. Yeah, I can. So yeah, we got the picture and then after that, that was published in Wendell's article. And so when that went wide, people contacted us and said, Hey, did you know that that picture was published in a UFO magazine in Australia years ago? And we're like, no. And so they actually sent us copies of some of the pages of the magazine that had the picture on it. And it was claimed to be a death mask of an unknown body that was found on a beach in Adelaide, Australia. And the the implications was that it was a dead alien that was found on the beach in Australia. Okay. And so it's like, it was obviously exactly the same picture. But if you examine the two, you can see that the magazine picture, and it actually showed up in two different magazines, as it turns out, the magazine picture could not have been used to make Oscars picture. But Oscars picture could have been used to make the magazine picture. And what I mean by that is that, you know, there's borders, there's there, you can see all the way to the edge of the picture on Oscars version, the one in the magazine, those borders are cut off, and there's writing, and you know, some stuff like that. So right. So in other words, Oscars picture couldn't have come from that magazine. It would have had to be the other way around. Now that doesn't that doesn't validate, you know, either of those two stories, it just says, well, if I'm going to pick a side, the evidence would say that Oscars picture is genuine, or Oscars picture was the original. And anyplace else that had appeared came, you know, after that fact. And, you know, one idea is if you want to draw people's attention away from North Dakota, Adelaide, Australia is about as far away on the globe as you can get to draw people's attention. Right. It's like sending them on a wild goose chase. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. So, well, thank you for sharing that. And thank you for joining us today. This was honestly, it's one of the most fascinating thorough cases that I've ever heard. And you know it inside now, and you tell it well. So thank you for doing your due diligence and providing us with all the information, you know, and I think it's fantastic story. And there's a lesson to be learned in this story too, as far as what can happen, what can happen to people, you know, in some of these experiences. So Aaron, is there anything you'd like to add to that? I do have one closing comment I thought of. Okay. NASA's board. Remember I mentioned this in the X-Men? NASA's board to investigate UFOs, you know, they put together a board of people to investigate UAPs. Yeah. And they listed, you can look it up and see the list of the people that are on that board and what their credentials are. There's one person on that list that when I read the list didn't make any sense to me. There's a person who has a journalism background. So it's like, well, okay, unless that person's going to write some public statements or whatever like that. Everybody else on there is like a data scientist or a physicist or something like that. But one person on there that doesn't really have, in my opinion, credentials to be on an austere council like that for NASA is Natalie Drake. Yes, Frank Drake's daughter is on the NASA team. Isn't that interesting? I mean, that's not a surprise. I'm not surprised at all. So it's like, in you almost wonder what her actual role is in that on that board. I mean, we can only speculate, right? But she has inside knowledge. She doesn't just randomly make her way into that situation. So very interesting. Yeah, that was a great final note. So yeah, thank you guys for having me and I enjoyed meeting you and, you know, yeah, absolutely. And thank you guys all for tuning in tonight. We love you all. And until next time, have a great evening. Good night. Yo, what's up, everyone? Hi, you guys doing today? You guys feeling those vibes? Hey, you know what it is? So check it out. So May 13th to 16th, Grafton, Illinois is Rebels of Disclosure Conference. Yeah, I'm pumped. It's going to be my first time in the States, first time going to a conference, first time seeing any of these speakers live. And the first time I'm going to get to meet hundreds of people that I've been chatting with and interacting with on Facebook and Instagram. And I'm so pumped. I did just check they have the website up and running. It's looking really fresh. It has all the information on tickets, meal plans, the schedule when the speakers are going to be speaking, information on all the speakers frequently asked questions and where you can camp or your lodgings for the weekend as well, information on where the event is going to be at and it looks dope. I do believe that this is going to be the best year yet. I may be biased because I'm going this year, but this is from a vibe. But yet, if you haven't checked out the website, go check it out. It's looking really good. I'm super excited, man. I've been following Tyler and Aaron for a long time. I really love their podcast, know the people they bring on, and the lineup this year looks so sick. So, and if you're going, I'm super excited to meet you. I'm going to give you a big hug, a big star seed squeeze, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Anyway, you guys, I hope you guys have an amazing day today, sending you guys lots of love and man, I can't wait for this conference. Big ups, Aaron, Tyler, and yeah, you guys have a great day. Peace. High Five Casino is a social casino with real prizes and big Vegas hits at highfivecocino.com. The hottest games right from Vegas and all winnings go straight to your bank account. Hundreds of exclusive games, free daily rewards, and come back to get free coins every four hours, only at highfivecocino.com. High Five Casino is a social casino, no purchase necessary, void work prohibited, play responsibly terms in addition supply, see website for details at highthenumberfivecocino.com. High Five Casino.