Digging Up Dillinger
9: The Mystery Turns 90 Years Old
(upbeat music) - Infamous Indie presents The Digging of Dillinger Project, featuring the Texas crime travelers and Travis Thompson. I'm your host, Joe Malilla. In the annals of American crime, few figures loom as large as John Dillinger. A mastermind of bank heists, his name became synonymous with brazen robberies and daring escapes. He questions of whether he escaped an FBI ambush and the whereabouts of his buried loot per severe. History offers one account, but there are whispers that tell us many more. Join us as we go Digging of Dillinger. (upbeat music) - Hi, welcome to Digging of Dillinger on this special episode on the anniversary, the 90-year anniversary of John Dillinger's supposed death. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughing) - Okay. - We're in Todd Hiles to her film, where the gang is here on a day. We pushed yesterday's recording to today, and it just didn't click with all of us until today, that this is actually the day for a very long time. I mean, 90 years today. - It was a weird chain of events that caused us to push this, but yeah, it ends up being really a very cool coincidence. - Yeah, Stuart likes today, because he likes to say it's been 90 years that his agency was created today. (laughing) This was put on a map. - Yes, this shooting was put them on the map. - The FBI brand. - That's the greatest chain of the world. - Yeah, the FBI brand was born 90 years ago today. - Isn't that great? That's, I mean, that's such a cool thing that we're together. We got Blood of John Dillinger with an FBI 90 years later, and we're still chasing the same freaking actor. (laughing) Please help us. Please help us. - Yes. - I would also say that, you know, what time, do you guys remember what time he was shot and killed? Do we know what the official is? - I think it was around 10.30. - Yep, that sounds about right. - 10.30 Central time. Yeah, 'cause Chicago's Central time. - Yeah, so we're about 45 minutes away. You know what, at this point, I don't even have to look, I'm pretty sure our timer will end on the exact moment, because that is exactly where we're at today. We always seem to work in this case. - This is the exact moment the imposter was killed. (laughing) - The imposter. We have a lot going on. And in fact, this episode is being recorded, and I'm gonna release it today, because I think it's that special that we're together, and I think our listeners who love John Dillinger, I've seen some posts on Facebook. I've seen some posts on Instagram. A couple of guys have said, "One person I saw said nothing was going on "at the biograph today, or tonight." But that person went and lit a candle. I saw that at one of the groups that we follow in the alley, John Dillinger. It's just an interesting part of our American history, right? And that I think that's what the legacy is to this day, is remembering this enigmatic figure that lived. And we talk about it. You guys listen to us talk about it all day, and why he's interesting, but there's a lot to it. And I think today is just something we've been talking about for a long time. Now it's officially 90 years. We're 10 years away from it being 100 years old. We're running out of time to tell this story and to figure this out. So we're glad you're here with us. - Absolutely, yes, very significant. - Okay, before we jump into it, please just have Travis mention what's behind his head. - Yeah, Travis, please tell us. - So, right behind my head is the wooding gun that was given to my great-grandfather by John in April of 1934, when he was at the farmhouse. And I'll move my head so y'all can get a good look of it, but that is the one that we believe is the real one. And then it was sold in auction in Texas. - Was it a piece of wood that was chipped off like the bench, or was it some other piece, where did that piece of wood come from? - Came from the top of a washboard in the jail. - And he chopped it off, basically, and then started whittling it away. - Whittling it and used the shoe shine to get the black on it. - Shoe shine was just readily available in any kind of prison? - Well, I'm guessing back to India. - Yeah, I still think that's interesting. We have some good stuff, too, so Travis, that's awesome. You know, artifacts will come into play for this podcast soon as well. We have a lot of updates from our perspective on what we're working on for the podcast. There's a couple of things that we're working on. One, the town of Mooresville is hosting an event to celebrate their history. Is it Travis display? It's a hundred year anniversary of Mooresville? - No, 200 years. - 200 years, wow, okay. - 200 years and me and my father and Joe will be at the Mooresville Library on August 3rd. I think it starts at three o'clock. I'm not 100% sure. - Yep, yep, so only a couple of weeks away. So if you're listening and you wanna come out, we're gonna be there talking, and you guys can ask us a bunch of questions, and we're not even the real stars. Mike is really the star. - Oh, yeah. - I mean, he's got the personality. He's the one. You guys don't even know him yet, but we're getting him. We'll get him on eventually. He's got so much stuff going on. We wanna make sure he has at least a couple episodes to be with us, but so we're doing that. We've had a couple of conversations. We're not holding our breath, but we have had a couple of conversations with some of the production companies out of a couple of major networks. We'll leave that for what it is. We've gone through that route before. We can go ahead. We can have conversations all day, right, Stuart? - That's exactly right. We've all learned not to hold our breath on these things, because you'll most likely suffocate. - That's why we have brought it to the people, because nothing has panned out, and we decided to say this story belongs to everybody, and it needs to get out there. So that's why we are here, and we appreciate you guys joining us. - Exactly. - Yeah, thanks to-- - Well said, Travis. We have speaking of our viewers. That's what this episode's about. So not only is it the anniversary of his death, a supposed, a legend, but we also have been getting a ton of comments and emails, and specifically questions from viewers that we want to answer right now, that we think that the guys have not seen these questions. I'm the only one who gets these emails. Big surprise, they don't go to all four of us. I usually forward them onto the team, so if you're sending emails to worry, we see 'em, we read 'em, and I forward 'em onto the team, and we read through 'em, and we see if there's any nuggets that can help us, and I tell you what, there's been a ton. We've talked to one lady on the phone, Amy, about her grandfather, who was a bootlegger, and a car guy they called a wheelsman. That's what she said, he was a wheelsman, he was a car dealer, and she was part of his grandfather. Her grandfather had connections to the Tuigang. So we talked to her on the phone, Travis, and I did. She sent us a bunch of emails, so we're gonna go over some questions. Are you guys ready? You are under oath, and you will have a phone. (laughing) And you know, I know how well you do under oath, Todd, at the Secret Service, okay? (laughing) And the-- - Enough said there. Enough said. - Yeah, enough said. No, we, we, you guys haven't seen these, right? Do you haven't seen these questions? - No, we have no. - No. - Okay, do you guys want me to share them so you can like read while I'm doing it? Like while I'm reading it out loud? - Sure, sure. - I guess as long as it doesn't have people's information on it. - Yeah, no, I took all the information out. - Okay. - So we'll do the first name, last initial. So speaking of Amy, that's gonna be the first question is from Amy, okay? So Amy, again, Kentucky, hold on, let's see. I'm trying to get, here it is. Let's see, can you, let me know if you guys can see this. Yep, okay, yep. - Yep, got it. - Okay, so Amy, E, message to us tonight. This is a long one, so stay with us, okay? But there's some nuggets in here. This is the kind of stuff that I think you all would be interested in. What about pharmacies as hideout/a home base? They were frequently used as a network to bootleggers at the time. George Remus owned an entire network of drug stores and soda shops, maybe a Capone Remus Dillinger connection, question mark. Have the hideout addresses been cross-referenced to the city directories at the time. In the back of some older city directories, it lists street addresses and then the residence names, like an index for streets. Might be a fast way to see who was in the neighborhood. In my case, the bootleggers always had multiple houses in the same area to hide. By the way, Amy, like I mentioned, is the one investigating like the Tuigang and her grandfather being the bootlegger, continuing here. In our talk before, you said Dillinger picked up a car in Lexington, Kentucky. I cost her major bootlegger from Eastern Tennessee frequented that area. He was associated with the Tuigang and later Capone. Costner and the Tuigang from Chicago pulled the Charlotte, North Carolina mail truck robbery, November of 1933. They hid out at the Rose and East High Street. Also, connections to Dun pharmacy as well. There were also a car salesman, Alex C. Ray, that was caught in one of the costner liquor chases. Can you tell me more about the car they got in Lexington and what were they doing there? My grandfather was a transporter bootlegger back in those times. He was also a used car salesman and provided cars to bootleggers. He escaped the chain gang twice and it ended up in Lexington with associates of costner. He said, he did say he was robbed of his new watch by the Dillinger gang on the way to the world's fair in Chicago in a bar. No info for the year or location. The circles that he ran in probably overlapped with Dillinger and the movie Thunder Road, but that's a whole nother story. Asheville, North Carolina, Newport, Tennessee, and Kentucky and up to Cleveland, Ohio. Was anyone in the Dillinger gang in Leavenworth, Atlanta, Penn, I'm assuming she means penitentiary? - Yes. - And then did Dillinger have specific liquor he drank? I cannot find an article video of costner's daughter specifically said his father supplied Dillinger with liquor and that is why I think there may be a connection to all of this. I apologize for so many questions. I have a researching for a year and a half and amazing to hear other niggin' into the air. I keep up the good work, Amy. - Wow. - Wow. - Man, that's good work, Amy. - Yeah, that's right. - Man, that's some very detailed work, very impressive. - Hey, before we get into our answers, let me just ask Stuart a quick question. In the FBI file, was there ever talk of Dillinger and Capone together? - Not specifically of Dillinger and Capone, but there was, when she mentions Lexington, Kentucky, and I'm going off the top of my head, but I do remember seeing reports about Dillinger in Kentucky. I think maybe a stolen car, exactly as she's referencing. I just don't remember the exact details of it. So she's definitely onto something there. - Yes. - Great. - And Capone was in the Atlanta pen, right? - Yes, he was in Atlanta before they moved into Alcatraz. - Right. - So what is your thought, what are the first things that pop out here? I mean, I know the first question is really a pharmacy or using a pharmacy as a hideout or a base. - Yeah, so using the pharmacy is kind of a meeting point or a collection point is new to me. I haven't heard that, that's interesting. Certainly is logical and reasonable. I do know that there were in the Chicago area at least, and in St. Paul as well, there were some known bars that were, I guess it would be almost like a bulletin board of gangsters, where the gangsters would check in as to who's where and they communicated that way. But yeah, I guess pharmacies could be just as logical. I just had never heard of that before. - No, yeah, I've not heard of that one either. - It's could be kind of weird 'cause they don't stay open at late at night, you know what I mean? I think something would have to be open later. - No, I feel it was a pharmacy that had kind of like one of these quote unquote doctors that they use to patch theirself up with or get medical. - Exactly, and there's no doubt that in the underworld, they knew doctors that they could use because I know that from the FBI file because Dillinger was shot, well, he was shot in St. Paul. He was shot when was the other time Travis, I'm forgetting, but Bill, oh, in Mason City, Iowa. - Yeah, Mason City. - Chicago, even the theater. - Well, yeah, but in about 27 minutes. - Yeah, okay, in Mason City, Iowa and in St. Paul, both times, he visited an underworld doctor. So by, with Amy's investigation, that actually, that's a pharmacy, that would make logical sense. That would be, that they would know these doctors that would treat them and not report it to the police. - Well, I'd like to, when we get into the address book, if any of this kind of coincides with that. - Yeah, absolutely, yep. And actually, I wanna say maybe Joe, it's another email of Amy's that you had passed along or she suggested looking at when we go through the address book, which we haven't done specifically because we were kind of holding that for TV to have an organic investigation into it. But since we're gonna delve into it, Amy brought up the point of looking at the old city directories, which city directories, it's like a phone book, but it's also, you can cross-reference an address versus a name or a phone number, so you can look it up various ways. So if we see an address in the book, but maybe not necessarily a name associated with it, we can go to the 1934 city directory of whatever town we're looking for, and those old city directories are usually in the local libraries, and we can look up that address and it'll tell you who was living there at the time. And usually in those days, it also included their occupation. So that could be some great lead value when we actually hit the road with this. - Definitely. - And this is what we're talking about with people being involved with us. I think who would have known if pharmacy could be a possible lead for a gang hangout. I didn't know that. - Absolutely, yep. - So now we can see, oh, guy who lives on one, first street was a pharmacist, okay? - Yeah, exactly. - We're kind of like looking for that. So that's awesome. - Amy, so far, you're 10 out of 10 here on your questions. - And as far as Amy asking what whiskey drank and the dillinger drank, I'm having a little whiskey myself tonight, hell, we might have to have shots for them. - And when we went through the trash pile at the, well, we didn't know what it was, but we were surmising that it was the trash pile at the Dillinger Farm, when we started digging into that, we found several bottles, a couple of them, most certainly probably could have been a whiskey bottle, but any labels or that kind of thing is long gone. But so the short answer is we don't know specifically maybe what brand that John Dillinger liked. - I'm like, I'm never heard that pass down or what he really drank or didn't drink. - Yeah. - I'm looking up popular, what was whiskey, 1934. Let's see what comes up. I don't even know, but golden hills, rare vintage, straight, where from whiskey. And you know how he could have been drinking, I mean, the stuff from Tennessee. I mean, he probably just went down, picked it up anyway in bars down. - Exactly. Well, by 1934, that, I mean, prohibition had stopped, but I guarantee you, there were still a lot of people that lived out in the country that were still making their own moonshine, so. - And that stuff will knock you on your ass, right? (laughing) - So we don't know that, ended up in Lexington. What's the significance to Lexington, do you think? - I'm not sure about that. I don't know of any specific connections of anybody in the Dillinger gang that was from Lexington, but again, I do recall from the FBI file that there were numerous sightings of Dillinger in Kentucky. You know, I want to say Lexington as well, but I'm stretching the old memory to do that, but without a doubt in Kentucky. - Yeah. - How about this one? I love this part. So we talked to Amy when Travis and I talked to Amy on the phone, I called Travis right away. I patched him in, I was like, "Hey, we have a fan." She's asking questions about the old gold pocket watch that John had. And I said, you know, she asked me, was there a gold pocket watch that Dillinger had? And I said, "I don't know, I'll call Travis." And so Travis picks up and I'm like, "Travis, did he have an old gold watch?" And she's like, "Yeah, he did." And so what did we tell her? Because she's asking about this pocket watch that was stolen from her grandfather. - I'm actually, hold on, you know, that brought, I just remembered. - John, do you remember? - I'm going to see if I have a photo of it, because I probably do. - So what did it bring in? - One of the things we liked about that question was it kind of, it's just kind of funny, because it all of a sudden puts into perspective, shit, a lot of this stuff could not be John's. You know what I'm saying? Like a lot of the stuff that Travis, it may be owned by, you know, have in possession by John, but he stole it. - Yeah. - And I think Stuart, you mentioned before that Dillinger did attend the World's Fair in Chicago. - Yeah, absolutely. Amy references the World's Fair. It was in Chicago, at least I know, and I don't know the exact times, but I know it started in 1932, and because Dillinger would have been in jail, he got out of jail in May of '33, he and a girlfriend, Mary Longnaker, went to the Chicago World's Fair, and Dillinger, as a joke, had a cop take a picture of he and Mary. And so we know that Dillinger was at the Chicago World's Fair. So Amy's on, right on that one as well. - Coach Travis, is it behind you? - So, yeah, so that is John's hunting suit, and two of the shotguns, and an automatic that was his. That Paco watch is the one that was on the supposed body in Chicago when he died. - And that pocket watch, you don't have anymore? - No, we don't have any of those artifacts right there. That's the hunting suit that he had a little Bohemia that the FBI sent back to the family. But yeah, so that Paco watch there, the back would open up and you could put a picture inside of it. - So one of the things that Amy said to us, Todd and Stuart, was that they had a picture or an engraved thing. I got the impression it was an engraving of like a log cabin or a home, a log home. And that was her grandfather's log home. And he was so excited to have this goal watch, and then he goes to the World's Fair, and he gets it stolen by the Dillinger Gang. Could that be the watch? That her family, you know, was her grandfather's. Which is kind of crazy to think about. - I tell you what, I wouldn't rule it out. I would not, but this is the kind of stuff that's popping up when everyone's listening. We love these stories. Give us more of this. - Absolutely, yep. I love it. - You know, connecting him in a bar, it gives us character details. It gives us, you know, movement details. - It's just opening up so much more, so. - To me, the thing that I've found, you know, in hearing these kind of stories and learning this stuff along the way of this odyssey that I've been on, on Dillinger, is it really, to me, brings history to life. It just, you know, 'cause you actually realize, you know, we're talking about real human beings here that lived life and, you know, had ups and downs, and, you know, needed to watch, stole the watch, and, you know, all those little things to me just bring it to life, and it's fascinating. - It's like Travis always said, "This is history-making." - Yes. - History-breaking. - History-breaking, yeah. - Yeah. - This is great. How about the next one? You guys ready to tackle another one? - Yes, bring it home. - Bring it home. - This one I won't share because it's shorter. But Ryan W, from Indianapolis, says, "Love in the Projects" podcast. Pod talks a lot about the FBI had a report from the doctors that Dillinger had plastic surgery, but was that even verified by friends or family or in pictures that it actually occurred? So we covered this a little bit, but, you know, that's a good question. I think-- - Yeah, it did actually happen, yes. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah, it's actually very thoroughly documented in the FBI file. They interviewed the two doctors, and I use that term loosely, because they were basically alcoholic criminals who at one time, I think, had a medical degree from, maybe the prison medical school. But they did interview those guys. They very, in detail, described the procedure, and it sounded like it would have been painful, gruesome, and basically ineffective, because when you see the picture of Dillinger and the morgue, actually, there are a couple of photos where the resolution of the photograph is really pretty good for 1934, and you can actually see some of the scars from the plastic surgery on his face. I think there was a slight facelift, and some moles removed and stuff, but you can definitely see the one scar about it, so. And also, the fingerprints were obliterated in probably the way it was written in the report sounds just like torture to me. He had, like, the tips of his fingers were cut open, and then in the cuts, acid was poured. It just had to be brutally painful. - Amos has been drinking a lot of water. (laughing) - Yeah, he had some old granddad going there, or whatever that was you meant to go. - This might be, then related to Amy's question about the pharmacies, 'cause they might have been getting narcotics and stuff like that from pharmacies. - Absolutely, the pain and. - Yep, that completely makes sense. Well, in those days, for an anesthetic, they gave ether, and I'm not exactly sure what ether is, but it either puts you out, or definitely puts you in La La Land, and apparently, the doctor that applied the ether to Dillinger, Damner, killed him, because Dillinger apparently started swallowing his tongue, and had some kind of a seizure that they were actually able to bring him back from, but yeah, these guys were not the cream of the crop as far as on the doctor mountain. - Well, there you go. I mean, we covered it slightly, but, you know, hey, and honestly, maybe we haven't, now that I'm thinking about it, because we're releasing this before the next one, so. - Yeah, actually, we do talk about this detail in another episode, and. - Yeah, so. - Yeah, yeah. - This is good, though. - This is good. - Okay, cool. - Joe, what was the, what was the, the comment, the commenter's name, what was his name? - Ryan. - Ryan. - Ryan, okay, so. - Ryan, okay, so. - Yeah, so Ryan just hasn't had the benefit of the other one, where we go into detail on this one, but that's a great question, great, great, great observation. - Bill, thanks for reaching out. - Yeah, all right, so we got another one. Anthony V, from Long Beach, California. He wrote us, and he said, "Just wondering if you guys "have given any thought to reviewing "Ron Offens' papers from Dillinger Dead or Alive, "which he co-authored. "I would think that an experienced investigator "like Stuart Fillmore could possibly find "some interesting nuggets among the papers. "I live in Southern California and unfortunately, "never realized that Ron Offens lived in Newport Beach, "a real missed opportunity. "I emailed him once and he was kind enough to respond. "Hopefully, one of you guys can make the University of, "make it to the University of Chicago, "to the library. "Ron Offens was originally an insurance investigator, "so he likely was responsible for a lot of research. "Your podcast is great and looking forward to it every week." Another suggestion is pursuing who the person claiming to be Dillinger in 1959 and 1963 is. He's obviously dead, but there might be someone who's a relative, neighbor, acquaintance that could offer some info and a long shot, but certainly worth pursuing. Ron Offens, in his email, did state that an ad was taken out in the LA Times to try to determine the identity of the person. Perhaps a copy of the ad could be included in his papers. Wow. Anthony V. Tony. Tony V from Long Beach, California. - So the. - I told Tony, I said, I just call him Tony there. I told Anthony, I said, "You're close enough in California. "Why don't you start doing research and stuff like that?" "Yeah, you're closer than we are." "We're the Texas crime travelers, but hey, man, "there's a limit, you know?" - Yeah. (laughter) - "Living Texas." - So I have to actually, Ron Offens co-authored really the original, I guess he along with his co-author, Jay Robert Nash, or the original gangsters on this, that first brought this question up. 'Cause I think the book was called "Dillinger Dead or Alive." - Yes. - Yeah. And I have that book, Nash, Jay Robert Nash, actually then wrote a second book a few years later. I think without Ron Offens, but the original book was by Offen and Nash, it raised these questions, you know, and because Nash had somehow gotten a hold of the autopsy, which the "Dillinger Autopsy" was missing for many, many years. I'm not exactly sure how Nat-- - I couldn't put that before. - Oh, yeah. - Say that again. - Okay, so the "Dillinger Autopsy," the autopsy report, rather. - Yeah, that we've looked at? - Yes, yes. It was missing for many, many years. Now, he got his hands either on the original copy, or I'm sorry, the original report or certainly a first generation copy of it. And I think that's really what got the ball rolling for him for his book. And so, you know, he talks about the eye color. I think the weight of the body was drastically different. There were several things, you know, and so in the stuff that Nash and Offen pointed out, I certainly attributed, you know, in the report that I wrote up, that they did not find the discrepancy in the ears that I found so compelling. But without a doubt, I would love to see Ron Offen's papers on that, because I actually have talked to Nash myself, trying to see if he had any original source documentation that could maybe shine some light on what that map was. - Is that still alive? - Yes, he is, yeah. Well, this is back in 2018 when I talked to him. And I don't wanna say- - I speak a little bit about it. - He's in his maybe upper 80s, but at that time he was- - Oh, do you want some president? (laughing) - At that time he was super sharp, super sharp. But he just did, and what my main focus was if he had any thoughts or opinions on what this map was that we found at the Dillinger Farm and maybe any, you know, original source documentation that might set shed some light on that. At the time he really didn't have anything, you know, that he thought could help and he didn't remember anything, you know, in their research. But he also didn't rule it out. So maybe there is something in Ron Offen's papers that would be fantastic to see. - It's J. Robert Nash, right? - Yes. - Died, April 22nd, 2024. - Oh, okay, I did not know that. Okay, okay. - And he was born in Indianapolis. - Yeah, yeah, he was, I think he was a newspaper guy. So. - I'd like to, maybe Travis and I can reach out to the family to see if there's any documents that would be available for us. - Yeah, yeah, his, he was in his legacy. I mean, think about it, guys. We've been doing this since April. - Yeah, obviously. - He was fairly reclusive. And I actually apply using, you know, maybe a couple of the skills I learned along the way, I actually, he was really impressed that I found him. So, you know, so, but we had several conversations, you know, about this, this topic. And I know he still was very much a believer that, you know, it was an imposter that was killed. - I love this. Travis, you and I, we're gonna go to Chicago. That's an easy, easy run. I mean, I was in South Bend today, so. - Yeah, I'm just saying. - Yeah, you guys gotta get up there and check this out. I didn't, you know, I didn't realize that that was available. That's a great resource. - Don't worry, we'll do the traveling, guys. You guys just say it like this. - But my relatives usually don't do good in Chicago. I'm just saying this. - Not, and you know what's funny, guys? We were joking around that the podcast is gonna end, like the timer on our podcast is gonna end on the exact time it is. It literally is gonna end on the course. What do you guys think? Let's go, let's go. I like Matthew T. I wanna ask, I wanna read this one, okay? - Go ahead. - Hello, so ever since the episode of Expedition Unknown was shown in Canada about the map, found buried on the family farm, I've been mentally paralyzed by something I saw on the map. - Oh, oh, wow, that's intriguing, okay. - That's your dramatic effect. Perhaps it's just my imagination, but did it not seem to indicate that John traveled as far north as my hometown of Winnipeg, Manitoba? Would it be possible for you to verify for me so I can stop losing sleep over this? I swear the map shows a circuit up north to Manitoba. Anyways, great podcasts. Appreciate learning more about John Dillinger as the show progresses. In the future, maybe you guys could take interest in the international pre-world criminal, John/Jack Craftchenko? Craftchenko? He allegedly was behind robberies in North Dakota, Minnesota, New York and overseas in Milan, Italy. He has quite the story, mythos to him, and I'm closely associated with this family. So again, history, family's connecting here. Crime, crime, family's connecting, but there you go. So the question is Manitoba, Winnipeg. - Okay, so I'm looking at it as we speak. It goes, yes, the map has a line or a route, whatever you want to call it, 'cause we don't really think this is a route, but anyway, there is a line and a star in Winnipeg, Canada and it's March, July 19th. So we assume that's 1934. - I'm starting to feel like this is more and more like a plan that he had, because I mean, July 19th, he's made days from being dead in Chicago, and he was probably in Chicago at the time. - Yeah, July 19th. - Well, when this map was done, we know it was in April of '34. - Right, yeah. - So, yeah. - So he's absolutely correct. It goes all the way to Winnipeg. It's very difficult to get this entire map into one picture that is clear and has good detail, but absolutely, he's correct. It goes up to Winnipeg, and from Winnipeg, it goes out to Great Falls, Montana. So it makes like a kind of a big, there are two or three points on the map where it looks like it's an arrow pointing at something. I still think the map was sitting at a table and several people were looking at it and then somebody's drawing on it. And so I think that's why those paths are kind of, as if we're gonna say, "Hey, we're gonna be here," and then we're gonna go up here on this date. - Exactly. - How easy, real quick, how easy was it to get over the border in 1934? - I mean, I don't wanna, I don't wanna, yeah. I can't say for sure, but I'm betting it was probably nothing to it. - Yeah, I was gonna say, well. So like today, Google went passports were created. Google that, when passports started. - K-tod, who's the host of the show? You start the end. - You got your goon right there. - What am I googling? - Mr. Google. - When, when were passports first established or used? - e-boomers. (both laughing) - Go out there on the world like that. - History of a passport, circa 1900? - No. - Reflectionary. - 1920. - 1920. - But, you know, for driving across the border in 1934, I'm betting that if they even stopped you, all you had to do is say, hey, I'm going into Winnipeg for a hockey game, the hockey game, exactly. - Sure. - The hockey game. - I love it. - Yeah. - Well, maybe, maybe Matthew can research to see if something was happening on July 19th. - Yeah. - A quarter of that year. - Yeah, what would have been going on in Winnipeg? - What would have been going on up there? - Yeah. - The money train was coming through there. - Yeah. - Or around April of 1934, which was this one, the map would have been created. - That's true. - Yeah, true, true. You don't think they would know, they would know events. Maybe they did know events or got leads on events. - Yep. - Yeah. - And at Well said, Todd, that's homework for Matthew. You know, we need all our friends in all these places to do, you know, to help us out with it. - Yeah. - I got one more, and then we can keep going. This one is from the Gorby brothers. - Okay. - Okay. - The Gorby brothers. - The Gorby brothers. - The Gorby brothers. - Zack and Ryan. - Okay. - That's what they want to be called, the Gorby brothers. Hi guys, podcast is growing great. I was wondering if I can get the Fillmore report. So of course I sent it to him. My brothers Luke Zack and myself have been fans of John for a long time. We have questions like you do. One question my brother Luke has is to steward. He wanted to ask if the FBI did shoot the wrong guy that night, would they make some kind of deal with John Dillinger or would that be crazy to ask the FBI at the time? My question is about, is also about if you guys will talk about the lookalikes John had. I saw three different names. Alf Alsmond, Frankie Carpenter and Frederick A. Weber. Thanks from Ryan Luke and Zack, the Gorby brothers. - I feel like they're the right. - I'm out. (laughing) So as far as, I think what he's asking is, was there some kind of a deal made out? - Yeah. - You know, okay. So one theory that, and this is not my original thought, and it might've been yours Travis. I know it's something that we've talked about along the way. Was it possible that, you know, that maybe Dillinger was a, I'm dropping the word, a protected witness. No, a protected witness. Witness protection. - Yeah, yeah. - You know, was Dillinger in the Witness Protection Program before there was officially such a thing. And because, you know, that's not too outrageous of a thought because once Dillinger was killed, the rest of the gang was run down and killed pretty quickly. So it was, you know, let's say Dillinger did cooperate and, you know, whatever deal was worked out. Was it something where, you know, then he turned on and gave information on where everybody else was? 'Cause they ran him down pretty quickly. You know, like I said, that's not my original thought, but it's certainly a consideration. And so. - The second question was about lookalikes. Those three-- - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah. - And Frank Carpenter and Frederick Weiber. - Yeah, the Ralph guy was arrested. I don't even know how many times because he looks so much like Dillinger. If you see a picture of him, he's, you know, that there is a resemblance, you know, and so without a doubt, there were lookalikes. In fact, we mentioned the Ron and often Jay Robert Nash book, Dillinger Dead or Alive. There's actually a picture in there of a guy that is supposedly Jimmy Lawrence, who was the name that Dillinger was giving when he was living with Anna Sage just before the Biograph incident. And, you know, the guy does have a, maybe somewhat of a resemblance to Dillinger that, you know, so without a doubt, there were lookalikes. There were lookalikes, some of them, in the case of the Ralph guy, you know, being so close that he was arrested a number of times. - Here's one of the pictures of Ralph. - And Stuart just mentioned the Biograph incident. And again, we're coming up on the-- - I mean, he really does-- - The hour. - Yeah. - It's really weird, dude. - It is, it is really weird. - Yeah, we're one minute away from exactly the moment he was shot and killed allegedly. - Allegedly. - So right now, Melvin Purvis is lighting a cigar and Charles Winstead is pulling out his 45 automatic. So with that said, you know, we understand where we're at and we'll wait till it actually turns 11.30 here for us. But, you know, I think one of the main questions we're getting a lot is, why are you glorifying this? And we're really, I think we're after the truth and justice of something that maybe didn't happen 'cause today wouldn't have happened like that. So there's a lot of questions. We're just looking for the truth. And it's fun, it's fun, it's a puzzle. So 11.30, guys, I wouldn't have been more, couldn't have picked a better crew to be with. - Yup. - Keep digging. - Keep digging. - And guys, we'll be back. The Digging of Dillinger podcast is produced by Joe Malillo and Grace Hiles. The music produced by Eddie Bandis. Follow us on TikTok, Facebook, and YouTube. Until next time, keep digging. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) [MUSIC PLAYING]