Digging Up Dillinger
4: The Fillmore Report: Part 2 The Ears Part 2
(upbeat music) - Infamous Indie presents The Digging Up Dillardier Project. Featuring the Texas crime travelers and Travis Thompson. I'm your host, Jill Maloney. In the annals of American crime, few figures loom as large as John Dillardier. A mastermind of bank heists, his name became synonymous with brazen robberies and daring escapes. Two questions of whether he escaped an FBI ambush and the whereabouts of his buried loot persevere. History offers one account, but there are whispers that tell us many more. Join us as we go Digging Up Dillardier. Hey, welcome back to The Digging Up Dillardier podcast. I'm your host, Joe Malillo, and with me, again, the team. Travis Thompson, Stuart Fillmore, Todd Hiles. We're all back for part two of the Fillmore Report, as well as the ear discussion. We were just talking about the discrepancies between the autopsy pictures, pre-optopsy pictures, as well as known pictures of John Dillardier, including profile shots from when he was arrested in Tucson, Arizona, that Stuart put together in a report that ultimately was going to be presented in court as a piece of evidence to kind of add to why the family wants to go and do an exhumation in Crown House Cemetery. So if you missed all that course part, go ahead and go back to episode three and listen to that, but for right now, we're gonna continue with the discussion about the ears. It's one of my favorite discussions. I can't believe you put this together, Stuart. This is insanity that you did this, and then it just is so obvious when you look at it, when we left off, last episode, we were talking, it kind of does from an outsider's perspective, and not an expert's perspective. It looks like John, like it looks similar in a lot of ways, and you could just like kind of make up buffer things that would be an excuse for, okay, maybe you're right. You know what, the pictures weren't that good, the cameras weren't that good. It was a crazy day that day. Transported is another one. He had facial surgery, so we've kind of done all this, but one of the more interesting facts that we can bring up on this podcast because we're so special, 'cause we are, this part is-- - We are, definitely. - Is because we have Travis, he has the family knowledge from like literally from past down from his dad to him. So Travis, I want you to jump in and tell our listeners and viewers, what's the official story from your family about that day that he was killed and ultimately when your grandfather? - Yeah, grandfather. - Great grandfather. Saw John's body for the first time and what was that like, what's been told? - Yeah, so back when I was in high school, I was doing a book report on Dylan Dross in the Indian history class. So I was doing a book report on my great uncle. So when she was sitting with me, when my grandmother's framed this for everyone, she doesn't know, when it came to that point in my report, she stated Audrey, her oldest sister, had went to Chicago and identified the body first. Now she said, yes, it was him with no hesitation, right? My great grandfather showed up in first thing out of his mouth said, "That's not my son." And at that moment, FBI agents grabbed him, they escorted him to a next room. No one knows what was said in that room. You know, just him and the agents. And then he walked back out, went up to the bodies and said, "Yes, this is my son." - And who was listening to him say, "Yes, that's my son." Was that like the odds? - Oh, yes, they're the odds people from Cook County and then all the agents that were on scene were there, my understanding. - Sorry, go ahead. - Well, my grandmother said, I'm pretty sure Pervis was there. Can I remember her saying that several times that Grandpa had to actually face-to-face conversation with Melvin Pervis. And he was one of the agents that went to the side room with my great grandfather. - And at the time, Stuart, right, Melvin Pervis is the agent in charge of Chicago, right? - Correct. Melvin Pervis was head of the Chicago FBI office. He was head of what was called the Dillinger Squad. He'd somewhat been usurped in his power because Jager Hoover was unhappy with him by a guy named Sam Cowley. Cowley's later killed in a gunfight with baby-faced Nelson after the Dillinger killing. But for all intents and purposes at that point, Melvin Pervis was the man in charge. - Also something else that comes to mind that just because of what we're talking about and all the discrepancies and mysteries and FBI's involvement, then in what we talked about in the left episode, their involvement in this still, back then, my great grandfather could not afford the $50 to embalm him and bomb John Dillinger. So he had to get money offering from the church back home to pay for that. So again, if he couldn't pay for the $50 to embalm him, he sure could not have paid for two feet of concrete, put over the grave. - Yeah. What did your grandmother say how the Dillinger family was notified that he had been killed by the FBI? - Trying to think, actually think a reporter from Chicago contacted the family because that same week, we have actual original photos of when John was put into the patty wagon before he was taking it to Cook County more. That reporter, I believe, I don't know his name, most often ahead, but I believe he was the one who contacted the family. - Okay. - And for inside knowledge about journalism, do not do that if you're a reporter. If you're not supposed to do that, you're supposed to let law enforcement officials tell the family that their loved one has been killed or died, you're not supposed to call them at their house and be like, "Hey, by the way, you know, John, he's dead." Let me ask you one more thing, Travis. So that when, how, where was John's sister when they found out they were home and then had to drive three hours? - Yeah, well, again, yeah, Audrey was much older. So she had married, had children who was living out of her own. So she was contacted and then went up there first and then, you know, back then we didn't have cell phones. - Sure. - So it was harder to get ahold of my great grandfather. I mean, to my knowledge, I think grandma said, he was actually working in the farm or outside doing normal farm chores at the time when someone actually had to come from the town and had to go out there to him. - And tell him? - Yeah. - So he was in the field? - That's what I'm understanding, he was out there. At that time, at hour at night, I think he was prying milk and cows or feeding them or, you know, doing whatever farm chores he had at the dude. 'Cause he was, again, alone doing work in the farm himself. And he, and John was killed at night, right? - Yes. - And then, so that would have been probably the next day. - How I understand, he was notified that night. - Oh, he was notified that night, interesting. - Yeah. - And then I just, to me, so Audrey went up by herself or went with your great grandfather. - Well, she was there first, so she went up there before he did. - So she just drove and got up there first? - Yes. - Was she the daughter? - And I think Hubert brought my great grandfather, which was John's brother, because, you know, John's senior, if you ever watch any of the old videos of him, you can tell the whole Dillinger ex-capade with his son, with wearing him down. I mean, you can tell emotionally he was in the video, which is great, we have audio of it. So I don't think he would have been emotionally able to drive from Morgil and Deanna to Chicago. What I've understood, why I believe Hubert drove him. - And your grandmother was there, too, at the autopsy, or at the body identification, or no? She was too young. - No, no, she was too young. Yeah, I don't think they would have brought her or Doris up there, they're too young. I don't think my great grandfather would have wanna expose them to that. So I'm not really sure. Grandma really never went in detail where she went or what had happened, but the story, like I told you, relayed, that's what her father told her, what happened. - Yep, they went into a different room. Something was said, and all of a sudden he changed his mind. Now, that's my son. - Yeah, and there's more to that later on during this podcast, once we get in front of the ring to it, what my feelings are after the fact of what the family did, but. - Sure, sure, yeah. We'll go into this. - Just run down the family members again, and I'm sorry. We have John Dillinger Sr., right? Your great- - Yes. - Grandfather. And then you said Doris. - Audrey was the oldest- - Okay, so Audrey- - Audrey, yeah. - Audrey and John were full siblings. Then it went Hubert, Doris, and my grandmother, Francis were half-siblings. - Got it. - Your grandmother had two older siblings that were half-related to John Dillinger, and John had two younger siblings that were Audrey and Hubert. No, no, I'm sorry. - Audrey was the oldest, so Audrey and John shared the same mother and father. - That's it, that's right, man. - Yeah. - Audrey and John's mom died when I think John was three years old, four years old. And then John Sr., remarried a few years later, and then had a family with Francis Doris and Hubert after that. - Yep, just wanted to make sure, 'cause I sometimes get confused sometime on that stuff, so I'm gonna make sure the listeners are following along in terms of the family tree line. - No, you're not the first one to ask that, I get asked that a lot. How many fill in the names, so? - Yeah, yeah. - Hey, I had a quick question for Travis. - Yeah. - So you mentioned you did this for your senior high school paper. - Yes. - What grade did you get on this? - Oh, I got A plus plus plus. - Oh, it had to be. - What was great was, I was a freshman in high school when I took this class, and this was only a senior, junior senior class. But the history teacher wanted me in that class. (laughing) - The other one. - While I was in school, the school was he, that Mr. Imberson was the teacher's name, he made a policy that no one else could do during the report while I was in school. (laughing) - Did he keep the original, your original report, does he still have it? - Actually, I do, my dad has it. - Dude, go get it. (laughing) - Go get it right now, get up and go get it. No, I'm just-- - I wanna read a copy, I wanna read a copy. - Yeah, me too, 'cause that's first-hand account, knowledge from your grandma. - No, yeah, my grandma was set there in word for words. I was listening to her type. I wish I would have recorded it, but you know, hindsight, everyone else is gonna be like, you had that first-hand knowledge, you should have recorded it, but that's my grandmother. I would have, it was just a family thing. It wasn't, to me, you know, like if you all had a famous, you know, family-- - Yeah, like all of us just have famous relatives, you know, that we just, like, you know, wanna interview. (laughing) - Yeah, I had some famous relatives. - It was great, and it was a lot for grandma to do that, 'cause there was a lot of motion, memories coming up, so we'd have to take breaks. - Interesting. Travis, thanks for sharing that, 'cause I think we're in this autopsy report stuff, and it's important to hear people that there was question marks about your great-grandfather's reaction as well. So, and take it for what it is, folks, right? Stuart and Todd backed me up on this, but second-hand knowledge, third-hand knowledge, at this point, I mean, how reliable is it? I mean, I know, Travis, it's your story and you know it, but in terms of witness credibility and stuff like that, I mean, is it, it's not something that we could take wholeheartedly as fact. It's just something else, a story that's been brought up, right guys, I mean, backed me up on this? - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry. - Yeah, I mean, you know, there's nothing like getting first-hand accounts from someone that was there. I mean, you know, we can, you know, we can study books and read that stuff, but you know, there is absolutely nothing like talking to the people that were actually there. - And just weighing it, but weighing it through telephone, through 90 years of telephone with Travis, right, 'cause he heard it from his grandma, who obviously heard it from somebody else in memories and time and, you know, human nature wanna change things and just, it's an interesting tidbit to add to this pot of just craziness, so. - Yep. - Thanks, man. We really appreciate this, we have- - Oh yeah, I don't know, just blood on the, I guess it's insane. - Oh, I love it. I mean, these are stories that I will be sharing with all the listeners and you three as well, that have only been in our family. Not a lot of this has got out, this is stuff. My grandmother's stories never changed the entire time, you know, I was with her. So she was a very, you know, the donor thing, Bob Lottik said a lot of bad memories. So with her talking, when she did, you listened because it was, you know, it wasn't really asked a lot of questions about 'cause she would just start talking about it if she felt like doing it. - And this is awesome that this is the only podcast that you're gonna hear Travis's stories on. - Absolutely. - Yeah, exactly. - Yep. - You, your grandmother and the stories, and obviously we're trying to get Mike Thompson as well, your dad on the podcast eventually, we will. We'll have to go there and take care of Mike and let him tell you because let's face it, he's got story, more stories than you, Travis. - Oh, he's definitely gotten more specialist since he got the hangout with Hubert and the other relatives and hear their first-hand accounts, which is more amazing 'cause during our endeavors, Stuart, with me, when we were going through all the other TV series, dad would just start talking. There's a lot of story that I had never heard before that, you know, something would just trigger that memory. - Great, great. Well, let's get back into a little bit more detail from Stuart on the ear discrepancies from the autopsy report. If you're watching, congratulations on YouTube. Thanks for watching on YouTube. You got into the right place for this episode because it's a very visual episode. But we're trying to do our best from a podcast perspective too. The ears, they look weird. They just look different. You can't attribute it to the lighting, in my opinion. You can't really attribute it to the autopsy procedure of peeling a face down and taking out the scope app and then replacing it because one of the pictures we're looking at is pre-autopsy photos. - Correct, yep. Stuart, where else do you think we need to go to let people know about the ear discrepancies here? - Well, I mean, to me, it just jumps out at you. So now, Joe, you pulled up. This was the initial picture that I saw where I'm looking at it and I'm thinking, what is different here? Obviously, when someone's dead, it's nobody looks good when they're dead, right? But something kept jumping out at me is like, what is different here? What is different that I see? This is supposedly Dilager. This is a picture obviously taken of him in the morgue. How can I reconcile what's different? And then eventually it hit me, look at the ears. Dilinger had somewhat kind of protruding ears if you look at him front on, from face on. And if you look at the corpse, again, those ears are more pinned back. They do not protrude near as much. And that is actually, this is the very first photo that I looked at where I thought, huh, what's up with the ears? Why are the ears different? And so then I started trying to find any pictures I could of, you know, when Dilinger was alive, when Dilinger was dead and compare those photos of the various angles and shapes of the ears. - So Stuart, the ears on the autopsy, is that pre autopsy post shooting? - So it's hard to tell on the one that's on the screen right now, whether it's pre or post autopsy. Obviously he's been cleaned up. The, you know, the, you don't see the dried running blood, you know, on the face. You clearly see some of the, I think on the left side of his face, there's some scratches underneath his right eyes, actually where the bullet that killed him exited. And then so along the top of the screen, you see three different photos of Dilinger. One is from, the one on the far upper left is Dilinger in 1924. The one in the middle upper is Dilinger in 1934. And the one on the far right top is Dilinger in 1934 and the, in July after he was killed. And the photos on the bottom are just close ups of the very same photos at the top. And if you look at the, the first two at the bottom, you know, the left and the center picture, that's from 1924 and 1934, those ears look, you know, pretty much the same? - Yeah, no, I mean, you literally go back and forth and they look exactly the same, that those two ears. - He looks really, he's a handsome looking young man though. - Absolutely. - What is that picture on the top of the left? What is it from? - His prom. - That, that, you know, I'm not actually sure, Todd, that you mentioned that, what that's from. You know, he was arrested in '24. That's when his, you know, he had attacked the grocer in Frank Morgan, in Morrisville. That's what started him, that's what sent him to prison. That's when this whole Odyssey really began. So I'm assuming that that is a mug shot, mug shot from that time, but to be honest with you, I don't, as we sit here right now, I can't tell you exactly where that picture's from, but that is Dillinger in 1924. - Yeah, I mean, his hair is impeccable. First of all, that haircut, his style is in now. - Oh yeah. - Like, you know, everybody wants that, that left. He's got the bow tie on, he's got that, that dang smirk. (laughing) Yeah, yeah, you know. - He knows. - Yeah, he's, but the ears, they are identical. - Yeah, so if you look at the close up from, you know, '24 and '34, those ears are, they're spot on. They're exactly the same. And then you look at the ears and the morgue in 1934, and actually the red lines that are on there, I did those, just to show how far the ears actually protrude from the side of the head. And you can clearly see on the far right, lower right, that the ears just don't protrude very far from the, you know, from the head at all. - Todd, what do you think when you see this? - Yeah, I agree with Stuart. There, I mean, there is a difference. And in those pictures now, when you do look at the pictures, I mean, he sure aged a lot in 10 years from '24, 1934. - Yes. - But like Stuart says, he aged a lot, but those ears, the mouth, the nose, it did not change. - Yep. - Knowing that ear, that ear shape and how they protrude out the family trait. - Right. And so again, the picture on the top right, you know, where the morgue photo, you know, obviously, we know that he's had plastic surgery. He, you know, he had actually dyed his hair black. I think the eyebrows are trimmed or shaved somewhat to be a little different. - He's lot, dude. They look very pretzels. - Delinger had the distinctive cleft in his chin, which actually Travis right now has a beard. You can't see it, but Travis actually has that very same cleft in his chin. - I do. - And that was one of the things that the plastic surgery altered. So you see that the corpse doesn't have the cleft in the chin. So all that was changed, but again, it's one of those things when I was looking at it, I just like, something still doesn't look right. What is it that I can't quite make this look like, Delinger and what, for me, it ended up being the ears. And so like I said, this was the start for me about, about, you know, okay. So what happens to ears in an autopsy? What happens to ears when someone dies? Ears are, you know, mainly made of cartilage in the few hours from when Delinger was shot to when the autopsy was done. The cartilage in the ears, they're not gonna change at all, frankly. They're not gonna change one bit. They're not gonna, you know, start decaying in any significant fashion that's gonna change the overall shape of the ears. So what is it that causes those ears to pin against the head, you know, are not protrude near like they did when Delinger was alive. And so that's what kind of began this thing to me where I said, holy cannoli, maybe there is something to this imposter theory. - Stewart, I have a question. - Yes, sir. - Going back like the side pictures here, I was showing the ears, John's ears of the top and the bottom, he might be the angle towards the front of the head, you know, the both do. Now pinning the ears would not change that, right? Would not change the way they are shaped for going forward. - Well, again, I don't know Travis. I mean, but again, I don't know why, why would they pin the ears of any way again? So if you look right now-- - John was self-conscious about it, Stewart. He wanted to, you know, he thought that about his sticky out ears that would happen. So during the facial surgery, right? This is, he pinned them back. I mean, it's a simple answer, Stewart. - And again, Joe, I know you're doing that in kind of a playful voice, but I actually had that thought because, you know, I'm trying to figure this out any way I can. And that's when I found the FBI reports of the doctors that did this surgery, so-called surgery, you know, this plastic surgery, as to, you know, exactly what they did. And the FBI went into great detail about what was done in these procedures, and nothing was mentioned about the ears. Now they did, actually, there was some kind of incision that they talked about that was made in front of the ears. So, you know, maybe it's possible that the skin, when it was healing, could have tightened a little bit, that it would have maybe pulled that ear in a certain way. - That would be painful. - Oh, absolutely. But what Travis is pointing out here is if you, okay, so let me, let me again- - You want me to go back up? - No, no, leave it there, but let me explain what we're seeing. So again, the earlier picture we saw, Dillinger wearing the bow tie from 1924, this is actually the, these are the side, the profile pictures of those same pictures we just saw. So, upper left is Dillinger in 1924, and then the bottom below it is a blowup of that picture. It's just a zoomed in version. And the middle is same thing, Dillinger in 1934, the one in the middle bottom is that zoomed in ear, and then the one on the upper right and bottom is Dillinger in the morgue. So if you look at the first two ears on the bottom, zoomed in very, very similar. The shape is the same. The top of the ear kind of points in the same direction. It's angled relative to the head in the same way. Whereas if you look at the other, the picture of Dillinger in the morgue, that ear actually angles back. So I would think if somehow there was an incision made on the face, somehow to do a facelift of some kind, if anything, it would pull that ear more toward the face and it would angle more toward the front, but instead it angles back. So again-- - So we say angles back. What do you say? Explain that to me. - Okay, look, if you look at the very top of the ear and so I don't know if you have the, if you have any kind of a pointer or anything, but what I'm looking at right now is the ear that's all the, you know, of the body and the morgue on the bottom right. Yeah, on the bottom right. - Yeah, yep, yep. - And if you look at the very top of the ear, there's a certain point or a crowning to that ear at the very top and then the structure from there just seems to point up or backwards versus the other two photographs. - Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah, like back towards the back of his head. - Correct versus kind of like almost like an elephant ear, like it's kind of like-- - Yes. - He's got more elephant-like ears on the younger pictures. And then the other one kind of goes back, I see what you mean by back now. Okay, and obviously folks, we're sorry. If you're listening to this and we're just talking about like random ear shapes and stuff, like we understand. Follow us on YouTube. We'll put some stuff on TikTok and Facebook, but also we're gonna give you the opportunity to see this report and download it for yourself, but we'll get to that later. So, shape very clearly, elephant ear, not elephant ear. - Absolutely, so it's very different, very different from, you know, like I said, if you compare it with photographs taken 10 years apart that look very, very similar. - Yeah. - You know, versus the one that was taken roughly six months after the one in the middle, the middle picture and the picture to the right, we're taking roughly six months apart and the ear is just drastically shaped differently. - I, it wouldn't be difficult to fix like, 'cause we see how there's similarities in the face stuff. Maybe I'm getting a little too deep here ahead of myself. But like the eyebrows, like we talked about the clef and the chin, stuff like that. - Yeah. - Could possibly be changed. Like, could you, could they after the fact, make the imposter look more like John, versus us trying to figure out if John, if that's John on the table? Do you know where I'm going with this? - I, yes, I've been through the same process in my mind. And actually, I think Todd has probably read this, the stuff, the background of this stuff, the most more recently than any of us. But the doctors, and I use that phrase very loosely in this context, but the doctors that actually did this plastic surgery, I think one was a known alcoholic. The other one was like, you know, a serial felon in and out of jail. You know, I think to do what you're talking about, Joe would have taken, you know, very skilled surgeons, plastic surgeons to do this kind of thing. And these guys, I think, barely had the skill to, you know, drink a glass of whiskey. And, you know, obviously they, you know, this was, this was, Dillinger and his buddy were trying to, you know, hide from the law. This is why they had these, these procedures done. So the doctors that they found that would actually do this were really not the most reputable guys. So they're obviously not the most qualified to do what needed to be done. So I don't think anything related to changing the shape of the ears would have, I think that would have been way beyond the skill level of an alcoholic and a serial felon. - I have something to bring up. Can you scroll down one, Joe? I know we're talking about ears. - This one? - Yeah. - This one. - Yeah, go back up, go back up one, right there. Okay, so, you know, we've been sitting here talking about the ears. I have to bring this up. Look at the nostrils. Look at the top picture of-- - Somebody else said that to me too, today. - The top of that nostril point, the opening goes up. The body, the, the supposed Dillinger, the nostril opening angles down, the opening goes down. - Yep. - Absolutely. (laughing) (laughing) Yep. - That you, you make a great case, Travis. - I've not really looked at these pictures this closely other than probably one other time I've ever got to see a support. - Somebody, something else that gets me, and I'm gonna play devil's advocate pretty hard here. Something, something that gets me is the, crow's peak, is that what we call it, the hairline. - Yeah, whittles. - So like, the hairline is very, like this thing, and I don't know if this is like a piece of hair that's like falling down 'cause it does, it feels like the hairline also, this is a bad angle on the right hand side with the autopsy photo, but it's kind of not as prominent, the widow's peak, that's what it's called. The widow's peak is in his prominent on the body to the right, or to the left. The other thing is, the sideburns, if we go up, I'm gonna go back up to the other photos with the sideburns, and I'm sorry. The sideburns, yeah, the sideburns are, I know, again, they're haircuts and all that kind of stuff, but like the where the sideburns kind of end or like the missing hair pieces, you guys have to look at the pictures. That's what it comes down to, if you listen to the podcast. But that's a discrepancy too, I'm just kind of like, that looks a little different, but also-- - Yeah, you know, again, devil's advocate, you could say that the widow's peak, that's easily solved, you know, he could just take a razor and just cut his hairline straight across, and also the autopsy report is very specific that the scalp hair was a medium brown color that, and the rest of the hair was dyed black. So, I mean, whoever was on the autopsy table was clearly trying to disguise his identity, which to me hints that this was Dillinger, okay? And if this is the body that they're talking about right here, again, now we have to explain, well, okay, I can understand, you can shave that widow's peak, you can cut it, the sideburns, you can easily change, but how do you change those ears? How do you explain those ears? And that's what I have wrestled with, I've come back with over and over, Joe. - What's the other thought about this? Yeah, it could be John trying to hide his identity or it could be somebody else trying to look like John. - Yes, yes. - Right, 'cause he's dyeing your hair black. I don't know, it's just questions. We're just asking questions, that's all this is about. And again, this is why I say, if I had been the case agent assigned to this, these are all the kind of questions I would want answered. And I would not close this case until I had these answers. - What definitive answers did you get? Have you gone out to anybody Stewart and asked anybody, like an ear experts or pathologists or somebody to get kind of their take on this? Have you talked to anybody outside of the research that you did? - So, as Todd knows, I'm a very avid tennis player. I play a lot of tennis and in the course of playing tennis, several of my regular tennis buddies are doctors. - How convenient. - Yeah, one's a radiologist, one is an emergency room doctor, and several others. So, I've bugged them time and time again, probably to where they don't even want me asking anymore. And I've shown them these photos and tried to explain basically what I'm seeing in these ears. Why don't these ears match? Is this something that the autopsy could drastically change? Is there, could the plastic surgery drastically change this? And the answer I'm getting back is no, they're as baffled as I am about what I'm seeing here, what we're presenting on the screen. - I'm stomped on this, and this is the first one we've got. We've got a couple other ones that are really interesting, but we also, I mean, our thought is to bring experts on the show. - Absolutely, yes, and again, if there's a logical answer to this, I want it. - Yeah, let's find it. - I want to know, because like I said, a lot of these things, there's specific little things on the hairline and the shape of the nose, and the overall shape of the face, that to me says, "Hey, that's Dillinger." If I look at that and go, "Hey, that's him." You got him, case closed. But when you really hone in on the slight, tiny little details, that's where this really starts getting funky, and I really start questioning things. - There's this thought in my mind about, let's try, in my mind, travel back to 1934. And let's think about this. And obviously, the time period of the publicity that John got and everything that was going on at the time, people would have taken this autopsy, I'm talking about FBI agents, but also the person doing the autopsy. They would have taken this very seriously. This isn't just something. Oh, and here's another criminal. We gotta do this quick and get some pictures and stuff. They were probably like, "This is very serious. "We need to like, up our game tonight, "and make sure that we're doing everything to code, "and to, but were the codes and the procedures "and the things as strict about documenting this stuff, "or was it kind of like, lackadaisical, "because in my mind, 1934 is so long ago." Like, everybody was just like, you know, gun slingers and, you know, riding horses, and just, it doesn't matter as much, right? - Yeah, so I know exactly where you're going. So in 1934, yeah, it was still somewhat of the old of the Wild West, but they had also, they were somewhat had moved into the modern world. There's a lot of documentation about the Dillinger case. And, you know, the Bureau documented a lot of this stuff. So, the cutting edge of technology in those days for identification of who this body was would have been fingerprints. And one of the things that the Bureau, at least, I know when I went into the FBI in 1987, you know, the thing that the Bureau pride itself on is how well it documents everything. You know, that, you know, if we go out and do something, you know, we document this to the hilt, so that there's no question about what happened and, you know, it's all recorded. What's interesting about this is that the FBI, for 90 years now, has said, you know, we got Dillinger or we got Dillinger based on the fingerprints. It's the fingerprints. It was a positive identification through the fingerprints. And I can't find any documentation anywhere in the FBI file that says the name of the agent or the examiner who actually looked at the dead man's fingerprints versus the original, you know, the known fingerprints of Dillinger and said, oh, that's a match. And here are the matches. I have never found that document that would show, you know, which highlights the things that they found that said, oh, without a doubt, that's Dillinger because they said-- - Would it be in there and then just redacted? Then you just can't see it? - No, no. The only thing redacted in the Dillinger file are the names of informants that they would have talked to back in the day. Everything else is wide open in that file. So why isn't there something in there saying, I, as fingerprint examiner or whoever, matched so many points and found this, this, and this with Dillinger. There's nothing specific about how they identified. They just say they did it. - Is the coroner mentioned? Like is the guy or the guy who does the autopsy, is he named? - Oh, absolutely. But now you have to understand, Joe, that that's not the coroner's job is to look at the fingerprints. That's a little beyond the scope of what he's doing. - Sure, no, I was kind of kicking back a little bit. So yeah, I see what your point was about the fingerprints, but I was saying, was the guy who actually did the autopsy or the coroner also mentioned, or was-- - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. - Absolutely, no, there's no, the autopsy's documented, the entire autopsy report is in the file. It's all there. All these kinds of things are documented. It's very, very thorough. - And there's no blemishes on the record of the person, like ever before, having messed up on an autopsy previously. You know what I'm saying? Is that something we could look into? - Nope, not at all. No, as far as we know, the doctor that performed the autopsy was straight up, was of reputable character. There's no question to, there's no reason to question his findings in this thing. It's straight up, it is what it is, it's what he saw, okay? So there's never been any issues about that. But what I'm saying is, the FBI has prided itself, ever since J. Edgar Hoover took over about how well cases are documented, and the things that we do are documented in our reports that we turn in. And I know how thorough it was, and I know how the supervisor scrutinized that kind of thing when you turned it in, is how well it was documented. So the fact that there's not specific documentation about these specific points of identification that we're found in the Dillinger fingerprints, and this is something else that we're gonna find in the report that I wrote up, that's gonna talk about the fingerprints, that's a whole 'nother subject we're gonna get into, because I just, I know the Bureau has relied on that for 90 years if the fingerprints tell the story, but I think there's more to it than that. - We can handle the truth. (laughing) - Can't believe it. - It was the damn truth. - At the time of the autopsy, was there any personal property that was released to the family? - Yes, yes, and actually Travis, you could probably speak to that better than I can. - Yeah, so the shirt and pants was released back to the family. Back in the '70s, my grandmother took the bloodied bullet-ridden shirt out of a trunk, it went in the backyard and burned it, because she was cleaning out the attic and came across it, you know, again, this is a sister, not an outsider. So this brought back a lot of bad memories. So, yeah, we did have the articles. An Audrey gave the pants that Stewart tested to the Dillinger Museum in Nashville, Indiana. So, yeah, we had all the articles. I think we even had the hat at one time, but dad didn't get passed down, and it was something Audrey had. - But there was no wallet or anything like that? - No, the total report was, which I think odd, that he had a little change, more like a little purse that was inside the pants. He didn't like Kerrio, had a wallet on him. So, he had money inside like a little chain, not like a change person. I figured, you know what I'm talking about. - Yeah, he had $7.70 on him. - Yeah, and if you're taking a, if you're going to the movies with your date, and John was very, you know, flashy, dressed well, he would have had a lot of money on him at the time. - Yeah, do you think he would carry around wads of cash? Like that, like just? - Yeah, 'cause he could think about it. This is the days before ATMs. So, you know, he's living with, you know, a prostitute. And so, you know, is he necessarily going to trust that he's going to leave his stash of money? You know, where some, you know, where she can tip off somebody to come in there and get it. - Yeah, right. - Now, I'm going to keep that money on myself, right? You know, so. - Yeah, or-- - I mean, if he was going, if he'd go to the movies, he'd like to eat and go out and wind and dine his girls. So, if they'd go to the movies more likely, they'd have went to a dinner. - Yeah, but everything is $0.10. $7.70 could get a kid go really far in 1934. - Yeah, yeah, no questions. $7 went a hell of a lot further than it does now. But I agree with Travis in that that even for 1934 standards, that's a, that's a paltry amount of money that he would have had on himself. - So that's what was found. So what else was found on him? - Trying to sink. - The Derringer, right? - Yeah, the Derringer was on him, but they didn't list it. They didn't, I don't think they listed the Derringer in the reported day story. - Well, yeah, they did, Travis, only because, you know, one of the issues about it was, I think a lot of people said that, you know, the FBI just basically executed him, but there were witness accounts of Dillinger on the run that he reached into his right pocket. And it was later revealed that he actually had the gun in the right pocket. And there's actually some corroboration of that. You know, when we examined the pants to show that, that, you know, that he had, you know, the gun was in his, in that right pocket. - They did, I mean, it was listed as the Derringer, not, 'cause I, you know, some conspiracy theorists, you know, they've reached out to me to be like, I don't believe John had a weapon. I'm like, what are you talking about? He's public in any number one on the run. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I honestly don't remember that it being a Derringer that was in his pocket, but I'm open to whatever it was, I just don't remember at the moment, but nonetheless, he had some type of a small handgun in his right pocket. And what I believe happened, and maybe I'm getting a little ahead of this on the subject, but when we examined the pants, there is a large blood stain in the right pants pocket. And so that, to me, corroborates what the FBI said, what some of the witnesses said, that he was reaching in that pocket, and that's when the agents decided to shoot, because they believe that they're more than likely, he's reaching for a weapon. And so what that tells me is, I know that the fatal shot was one that entered at the base of his neck and exited his right eye. I mean, he would have been out, the lights would have gone out instantly, and he hit the ground hard. And when he did, if his hand was in that pocket, I believe that that gun probably pinched his hand against the hard pavement and caused some level of bleeding, because he didn't die instantly. He was still alive when he was on the ground. Very, you know. - Suffering, very... - Yeah, absolutely, I mean, he was near death, but he was still alive, which means that the heart would still have been pumping, which means that if he had an abrasion to that hand, it would have bled in that pocket, and that's what explains that. So that's something that a lot of people had never seen, you know, that have absolutely no clue about, that's not described anywhere in any of the official reports. - Also, he had a pocket watch that was on him. - Exactly, so it could have been the pocket watch that could have, you know, nonetheless, I think his hand was abraded when he hit the ground, and it tells me that his hand was in that pocket. - Was he wearing a ring or anything like that? - Don't know, don't know, possibly. - No, at that time. - Does he like to wear rings, Travis? - He does like to wear rings. I like to share this with all our viewers who are watching on YouTube. I'm actually wearing John's ring. I'll take it off. This is what he was wearing at the time of a little Bohemia Lodge, and it was left on the nightstand and was sent back to the family. - I can't believe they kept sending them the family stuff. To me, that's incredible, like we found this. It's John's, here you go, like, anyway. So, do you think they sent it to the family after he was killed? Or, or? - No, it would have been sent back. How I remember they gave the articles to his father, my great-grandfather at the time, he was in Chicago. - Sure, sure. Well, I got one piece of information that I looked up while it took me a little bit here, you know, it's not Wikipedia, but it's also not, you know, the most source thing. But, according to DaveManual.com, inflationary movie tickets, movie tickets in 1933 were like six, a movie ticket was $6.14. By 1937, this number had dropped all the way back down to $3.97 because Americans were struggling to go out. So, six... - I'd be shocked if that number is right. - That's what I'm saying. It doesn't sound six dollars for a movie in 1933. - But I think this website is trying to adjust for inflation. That's where... - Oh, okay, maybe, maybe, maybe. Okay, that costs... - And you got to remember, the only reason why John went to the movies, one of the huge movie buff was, this was in July, it was, Chicago was in a very, very intense heat wave, and the Biograph Theater had actual air-conditioning, and that's why they went there. - 1950, I got a more reputable website. It says 1950 cost of a movie ticket was 40 cents, so... - Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So, that sounds more right. And Travis, just for our listeners, can you, just a little trivia question, can you name the movie that Dillinger saw at the Biograph? - The Manhattan Melodrome, yeah. - Manhattan Melodrome. Guys, we're two minutes out here from the end of the podcast. Thank you, everybody, for listening. This has been another treat, another... We saw a ring, literally saw Travis Ware, a ring that was John Doleger's on the podcast. So, this is really cool. Guys, we're gonna keep going. Next episode, we're gonna keep going down the Fillmore Report here that Stuart put together. It'll lead to more discussions. - Right, we're just trying to get you all caught up into why we think this is worth your time. That we, if you really think that this is something you wanna help us out with, please like, follow, subscribe, and share, comment, call us, email us, and really sign up for our newsletter stuff. There'll be opportunities for you all to get involved, but our main goal here is to continue this historical investigation that's developing. It's one of a... - History breaking. - Yes, history breaking. Oh, we'll love it. Any last parting words, folks? Join us next time. - Yep, keep digging. Stay tuned, 'cause we're staying on this thing. We've been on it, we're staying on it. - Meet on the bone, baby, still meet on the bone. (laughing) All right, everybody, have a good day. The Digging Up Dylinger podcast is produced by Joe Malillo and Grace Hotz. The theme music produced by Eddie Banders. Follow us on TikTok, Facebook, and YouTube. Until next time, keep digging. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)