Digging Up Dillinger

3: The Fillmore Report Part 1: The Ears

The Fillmore Report as we call it was put together and written by our own Stewart Fillmore. It is the basis of our arguments about if John Dillinger was shot at the Biograph Theater on July 22, 1934. Stewart will explain why he wrote the report and go over the first of the major arguments.

Duration:: 43m
Broadcast on:: 22 Jun 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

(upbeat music) - Infamous Indie presents The Digging Up Dillardier Project. Featuring the Texas crime travelers and Travis Thompson. I'm your host, Jill Maloney. In the annals of American crime, few figures loom as large as John Dillardier. A mastermind of bank heists, his name became synonymous with brazen robberies and daring escapes. Two questions of whether he escaped an FBI ambush and the whereabouts of his buried loot persevere. History offers one account, but there are whispers that tell us many more. Join us as we go Digging Up Dillardier. (upbeat music) Everybody, welcome to The Digging Up Dillardier podcast. I'm your host, Joe Malillo, and we're here on episode three. And with me are my friends and cohorts, Travis Thompson, Todd Hiles, Stuart Fillmore. Hey guys. - Hey, what's up? - Hey. - Hey everybody. - Cinco de Mayo. - Today is Cinco de Mayo. - We are. - So. - Yes, you're coming right out. He wants to celebrate right away. Couple of houses to keep in things. First off, thanks for joining us and listening again. We're really excited to bring this to you. We're looking on this over multiple weeks, multiple months. And we're spending a lot of hours together, this crew that you hear on each podcast. And we talk about a lot of things. There's a lot of facts and figures and things that we think you should know as our listeners that we can't wait to share with you, but we have to do it in a very orderly fashion, or else, right, it just turns into kind of a lot of info, but not a lot of structure. And so one of the main things that we love to talk about is this report that we're gonna present tonight, at least the first argument of this report. This report we call the Fillmore Report. And if you can take a guess on who wrote the report, Stuart was the author. This, he's gonna tell us the story about how this report came about. And also, we're gonna go into maybe one of the major question marks on whether or not John Dillinger was killed the night at the biograph. These are the kinds of things that we want you to hear. You make your own determination. We're gonna do our best to give both sides of the story, both arguments, whether we think Stuart's report just brings up questions. Or Stuart's report answers those questions. We leave it kind of up to our listeners and our viewers to decide. So again, Facebook, TikTok, YouTube. That's where we're at. We also have a Patreon account. And we're also, we're gonna be obviously all the podcasts. But go follow us there. Especially the YouTube channel. We'll have the visuals that you'll probably hear about today. So if you wanna go see pictures and stuff I'm gonna be sharing the screen as we're kind of talking about this report. And again, the reason we're doing this is we want to have a following. We wanna have our community support us as we go through possibly an exhumation or an autopsy again. So that's kind of, I've always said that. Patreon is really important. We're gonna need followers and people who believe in our cause to help us out financially. Eventually, right now we're just asking questions and creating conspiracies and talking about that stuff, which is the great stuff. But we could use your support eventually one day. This isn't like another podcast either. I think we said it to each other on how many times, guys? Like three or four times this week. - Yeah, stay alone. - This is a different kind of podcast. We are legitimate in many ways, but I think one of the most important things is that Todd and Stewart are both licensed private investigators currently and are working currently on their own cases. Stewart told me this week, some of them have to do with autopsies, which is what we're talking about tonight. It just happened to be an autopsy from 1934. And then Travis as well. You're a law enforcement officer as well. So here we go. We are legitimate. I'm a former TV reporter. I'm looking for facts. I love investigating. So here we go, folks. Episode three, Stewart. This report that we reference. - Yes. - I show it to people because it's to me, it's the most visually appealing thing that makes sense to me on why John Dillinger not being buried in Crown Hill and somebody else was standing in that day. Is legitimate, that theory could happen. - Yeah, it's certainly a legitimate question to ask without a doubt. - And it's just, I think you laid out, like we were going to court. - Just like a... - You know, and I think I said, you know, the last podcast that just as a habit, if you will, of being in law enforcement where the standard of, you know, winning a case is beyond a reasonable doubt, you end up formulating all your investigations with the mindset of, you know, does this piece of evidence or, you know, does chasing this lead, is this gonna prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt? And so that really is always in the back of your mind is how, you know, this thing will play in court. So it's just how I wrote this thing and how, you know, how it came about. - It was for a purpose. You were, you thought that this might be used in court. Well, because Travis, you guys went to court. - Yes, that's right. - Well, when you guys went to court, were you able to present the report? - No, I mean, unfortunately, never got to the stage of presenting any kind of evidence, any kind of argument as to, you know, why we were seeking the exclamation, the way that the request for this exclamation was filed, simply allowed the cemetery Crown Hill in Indianapolis to just deny it outright with no reason, no justification, no nothing. They could just say, oh, we choose not to do this and we don't have to tell you why. And that's exactly what happened. - Exactly. Yeah, we didn't get to the part of even presenting evidence at all. So this piece of it, yeah, arguments only and then being told denied. - Well, no, Joe, I mean, there were no arguments. The only argument was Crown Hill, do you consent as, you know, as the cemetery to this exclamation? They said no, the judge frankly kind of berated them, you know, for their decision, but said legally, there's nothing I can do. - What do you mean berated them? - You could tell that the judge was not happy with Crown Hill in this whole proceeding that he felt that, you know, the family or at least, let me put it this way, the next of kin, there were some dissenting family members, but at least the next of kin wanted to do this, but the judge himself even couldn't take it to the next step of at least listen to why they want to do it. He just had to say, Crown Hill says no, and so we're done, that's as far as it goes. - Yeah, and another interesting thing as soon as court was over with Crown Hill attorneys ran. They got, I mean, they went out of the side door, they went down, they didn't wait for an elevator, they took steps down. Me and my father, Mike Thompson, leapt out with Stewart and we were met with a room full of reporters in Crown Hill's group left. - Yep, that's absolutely correct. And in fact, you know, over the course of a 29 year career, 29 year career with the FBI, I was involved in, I really couldn't put a number on how many times I was in various court proceedings, trials, hearings of all kind, you know, with attorneys from both the government side and, you know, the defense attorney side. And I've never seen lawyers more nervous and more uncomfortable being in a situation that the lawyers representing Crown Hill that day, that they looked so, they looked scared, they looked like they would rather be any place on the planet than where they were. And there was a, an in-camera hearing that was, meaning that there was a, the lawyers and the judge talked outside the courtroom prior to the hearing. When they came back from that hearing, from that meeting, you know, in private, you could tell the judge was not happy, you could tell that the Crown Hill lawyers were uncomfortable and just, I think the judge was just, frankly, flabbergasted, as were all of us, as to why don't we at least hear, you know, what's behind this, but because of the way that our attorney in that case filed it, this request for an exclamation, under the law, that's as far as it went, because Crown Hill could just say no, we had to have the okay of the cemetery. - Was the lawyer just-- - Okay, didn't have to go, that's as far as it went. - Was your lawyer just incompetent and just didn't know there was another route to take that was not involving Crown Hill, wouldn't let Crown Hill say? - I won't go so far as to say incompetent, but just had not really looked at it the way, I think it should have been looked at, which I think, if you read the various ways you can request an exclamation, it should have been requested as an autopsy. You can request an exclamation for various reasons, one of which being to move the body to another facility, and then for an autopsy rather, I forget the exact proceeding or what code it was under that our lawyer requested, but it was the one that she chose was the absolute most difficult way to have it done, and her argument was, if you read the statute that she filed it under, you only really had to have the request of the next of kin, but for whatever reason, she felt that we needed to have the entire family on board, and the Dillinger family is like any other family, people have their opinions, and so you never actually have 100% agreement on anything. So it was a fool's errand to begin with, thinking that everybody in the family was gonna be on board with this thing to begin with, and I don't even think the judge would have been swayed by that, frankly, because you could tell that the judge actually was put out with Crown Hill and did not understand why, why won't you guys do this, or at least let's get to the next level of talking about why there are family members that wanna do this. - And this, we never even got to that. - And just for the listener's sake, this was worldwide news, it was national news, people were really interested in this, and they really wanted to hear from Mike and Travis about why, and that's what we had an opportunity. - Yeah, well, I mean, just leading up to the court case, remember Crown Hill was on board, me and Paul Lima, which was a producer when we were working with the History Channel with Kinetic Content and trying to get the show going. When I had a meeting with them, they were completely on board 'cause they're like, we do ex-humanations all the time, we move bodies, there's not a problem, and the argument was they were afraid they were gonna disturb other plots around John's, but if they do it all the time, why is there a problem also Crown Hill hired private investigators to investigate me, Stuart, my father, which was kind of odd. And again, this is after the proposed that FBI showed up and took copies of the folder and documents they had on the Dillinger grave. - Yeah, so Travis, you're alleging there's somebody involved with the FBI that was involved with Crown Hill during this time period. - Yeah, so I don't know the exact date, but I know what day was on a Monday, suppose my person I was talking to was High Crown Hill, which basically disappeared, they're no longer working there, said that the FBI, a one FBI agent showed up, identified himself as such, was badge and identifications, asked to see the records, they took him back, he copied every record they had in the left. On that Tuesday, the following day, they were no longer working with the project and we're gonna fight us too for now. - Yep. - Is there a possibility to refile this through court again? - Yes, we can still do so. - Yeah, wait, just, Stuart, would you say, you think the same thing that Travis is thinking or is there another? - Well, I mean, what Travis said is exactly how it happened. Crown Hill was cooperative, they had been spoken to by the producers, we had the proper permits that needed to be done for this, and then supposedly Crown Hill got visited by an FBI agent who requested what Travis, all their files or something, every file they had, you know, relating to Dillinger, and then after that, man, it's when everything changed and there was no more cooperation, that's when we found out, you know, not only is there no cooperation, but hey, we're ready to go to war over this, we're ready to go to court and fight this as far as we need to fight it, that this will not happen. - And this isn't, oh, sorry. - Oh, sorry, was the agent who went there, was it J Edgar Hoover, the agent? (laughing) Well, it'd be kind of hard to do 'cause-- - It might have been his ghost. - In May of 1972, but hey, man, you never know. It may have been as, like, Travis just said, it might have been his ghost that once they got paperwork. - Well, let me ask you, Travis, and Stuart, what were in those files that you think that they looked at? - I have no idea, I can't imagine what kind of files that the cemetery would have, other than maybe who owns the plot, you know, and maybe when the burial was, I just can't imagine what kind of files the cemetery has. - Also, did they, go ahead, Travis, sorry. - Well, the employee that worked there said there was quite a bit of files, which is odd, but when we had our meeting, none of these files were ever brought to us. - That's what I'm saying. - We never looked at this out and talked about it. I mean, they knew that it was, there's two feet of concrete poured over top of the vault. He was buried in a vault. They knew all of this information, but the one thing they couldn't answer is who put the concrete there? - Yeah. - Now, maybe the documents. Now, the documents, how I understood the president who I was having the meeting with had access to the files, but none of that was brought up. They knew this, you know, this new this in advance so we're coming to have a chat with them. You would have thought they'd have brought that to the table. - Yeah. - And just, just so the viewers maybe have a, just a little insight there. Travis's background is from that day right after the court hearing. That's out in the lobby, just out from the courtroom talking to the reporter. - Yes. Also, this isn't the only FBI involvement we had of them trying to stop something. On the exact same case that we're talking about going to court on, my father had to have filed with the Indian State Department of Health, the exclamation permit. We had a fine statement sent to our attorney, stating that the FBI had reached out to them multiple times, asking them to stop issuing of permits. - Yep. - So, what if the FBI had involved a wirey willingness to kill that? - Why don't we just ask them? Hey, Stuart, what do you think the FBI do? Listen, no, I'm from a real question perspective. - Yeah, I know, I'll give you the same answer that I gave Travis and Mike back three years ago, however long ago it was. I can't imagine at all what jurisdiction it would be, how they would legally be able to even do that. We're talking about an 85-plus-year case that when someone goes out and applies for this permit through the health department, which is one of the requirements to do this, which is any citizen's right to do, especially a family member, how the FBI would have any jurisdiction whatsoever to call about this, to inquire about it, to do anything about it, is beyond my comprehension. I have no idea what, under what authority, that call would have been made. And Travis, as we sit here, I actually kind of forgot about that, but you're exactly right. It was documented with our attorney that the health department had been contacted by someone claiming to be in the FBI and requesting that this not happen, that they disapprove the permit for this exclamation. - Yeah. - So again, I said then at the time, there's no jurisdictional way I'm aware of that they would have to make this call or this request. - And what's odd is some of the local reporters, even down Louisville, Kentucky, that I was talking to, had reached out to the Chicago field office about this, why are you, why the FBI looking into the donor case? And they said, this is what the reporter told me, and it was never published, but that the FBI will not comment on an ongoing investigation, which is odd if it's on, how's this an ongoing investigation? - Right. Yeah, I've got my watch here, and I'm about 90 years old here. That's how long we've been going. - Exactly. You know, the thing is, if in fact, you know, they got their man, and it's a solid case, then what is there, why not? I've said this before. If this were my case, if I were the case agent on this case, I would, if there's any doubts about it, I'm wide open to doing whatever it takes to definitively say, absolutely, we got Dillinger, and here's how we prove it, okay? Again, any doubts about it? I'm wide open to any modern testing. Let's do the most modern testing we can. Let's get the most definitive answer possible. - I completely agree with you, Stuart. - Yep, that's funny. You know, the darkness has nowhere to hide when you shine light on it, right? The truth is the light, and like you said, why not just, if you have nothing to hide, then why not just prove it? - Prove it. - You think you guys know, prove it. Let's go. - Exactly. - Yeah, like I said, if it's my case, I don't want any doubts about it. And if I made a mistake, if it's wrong, I wouldn't know that. And if I can use the most modern techniques available, because science and those kind of things are always advancing. Let's do it. Let's open it up to the most modern techniques we can. - Definitely, and I have no ill will towards the FBI, even though they supposedly try to railroad this. Let's just, I mean, I personally don't have a data against them. I just want the truth to come out. I mean, one. - And are they worried about just because of the lure around Jager and some of the dirty stuff he did? Are they worried that this is just another thing that could come out? - Who cares? He's dead. - I don't know, 90 years, who cares? - And they're established. I mean, they have their funding. - And think about this. If you test it and it turns out it's right, then wow, that's a bragging point. And, you know, I don't know how everybody feels about what's going on currently in our country, but it seems to me the FBI could use all the positive public relations they could get, at least from half the country. And, you know, man, if you're able to reach out and say definitively, you know, with the most modern techniques available, we got Dillinger back in the day, you know, and shout it from the rooftops. That's great, let's do it. - Everybody's bad, we get shinier. - That's exactly right. - That's E-men. Todd, do you have anything to add to this that you think from your perspective? - Well, I mean, I spent all this time with Stuart and he's convinced me of this. And so I'm kind of excited now to get into the Fillmore Report here. - Yeah, we've really dove into kind of background of the Fillmore Report. I think for me, that was when you guys were going through, I wasn't allowed to really talk to you 'cause you were all under NDAs. And I just remember from an infamous indie perspective following along from the outside and calling Travis and Mike every once in a while, they're like, "Hey, you guys doing it?" And it's like, "Can you talk yet?" 'Cause I really want you on my podcast 'cause I was just itching to get the story out. But when you got denied a court and then the NBA ran out and then we did Villengers 1, 2, and 3 on the infamous indie, that I think a lot of people were interested in what happened and why you were doing it. And that was the number one thing I wanted answered was why are you guys going after court? Like what is the reason for the exhumation in court? And to hear also your experience on this podcast, just gives more insight on what was going through your head 'cause I wasn't communicating with you guys at that point. I didn't know what you guys were going through. So I really appreciate your experience. It was a rule of cost for rides. Definitely a rule of cost for rides. Big time, yeah. Yeah, and it cost money too, right? Absolutely. Well, at that time, that was still the production company that was footing the bill for that stuff. That's what I meant. Yeah, it got somebody money. Yeah, but eventually, the folks that wrote the checks for that just said, "This is going nowhere." So they quit writing the checks for it. And then since then, Travis and Mike and I have stuck with this thing. We've tried some things on our own. We've advanced it somewhat. But there are a few things that are still roadblocks for this thing, ultimately getting to the real truth of it. So this was good background. I think everyone, I really enjoyed that conversation. Let's go into the questions and findings regarding the death of John Dillinger. That's the name of the report that you put together. Yeah. We are going to go, I'm just going to, I mean, we know the background here on this podcast, but I'm going to share it with everybody. So let me get my share up here. Let's get the share window. Oh, God. That looks like literally, this is fun production. This is fun production. All right, got it. It worked perfect. Okay. So we have the, if you're watching on YouTube, the questions and findings regarding the death of John Dillinger report on the screen. I think I can zoom in a little bit more. Yep. Okay, big time. Stuart, where do you want me to start? Do you want to just start up here in the background? Well, yeah, I mean, if you want me to, why don't I tell you how this report actually came about and what, why I ended up writing this thing? So I think we've touched on some previous episodes that we found this map buried on the Dillinger farm in a mason jar. It was a map of the United States. It had this weird route drawn on it that really didn't make sense as a route. We believe that it's some kind of a code, that it's actually some kind of, it sounds really corny to use the word treasure map, but we believe that it is some kind of map leading to some other artifact, if you will, something else that's buried in this case that we just don't know about at this point. And history does not know about this map. This is really something that's been unexplored. And honestly, it just finding this map was so exciting. We really all felt, you know, we're gonna have a TV show, we're gonna talk about this real artifact, we're gonna investigate it, we're gonna do all the modern technology to try to find fingerprints, DNA, all the things about it, we're gonna have code breakers. And then when ultimately when this was presented to the networks that maybe would put this on as a show, they just were uninterested, who's Dillinger? You know, we don't care, that's boring. Blah, blah, blah, blah, it looks like you guys fake this thing. But lo and behold, there's this other theory out there, the Dillinger that, you know, that he was not killed, it was an imposter killed by the FBI in 1934. We like that theory better than this, whatever this map is. So when the producers came back to me about, you know, that's how the network felt. I just, thinking as an investigator, trying to solve something the most efficient way possible, I said, well, if it's an imposter, we have the family cooperating, so we can do DNA, let's just go do an exclamation, we'll dig the body up, do DNA testing, that's gonna be-- - Big Go Pango, that's it, we're in. - That's it. - Yeah, well, that's Dillinger in the grave. So we'll put that theory to rest, and, you know, we'll go on, and now we'll be able to solve this map, because that was my mindset. And so I started putting together, you know, I started looking into this, a deep dive into this so-called imposter theory, and I started finding things that I couldn't find answers to, that these anomalies and discrepancies about his identification that was different from his known characteristics that were identified in the autopsy. And then along the way, there were several other factors that came about. I found that there was an author named Jay Robert Nash, who had done a couple of books about this very thing, about this Dillinger posture theory in the late '60s and I think early '70s, and read those books, and actually I ended up getting in touch with Nash, talking to him about it. - Is he still alive? - Yeah, he's still alive, very sharp guy. - Go hit him up, we need him for the podcast. - Get him out of here. - Yeah, so, you know, so I just started thinking that, man, you know, there's a whole lot of unanswered questions on this, and I've said this before, like I said, if I, this were my case, I wouldn't want these questions out there. I'd want to answer these questions and use whatever techniques I had available to me. So, eventually I just had so much information, I just thought, you know, I've got to compile this in some way, so I just wrote a report much since I would write, you know, in the FBI as what we would call a prosecuted report, you know, something you give to a prosecutor in the case that, you know, outlines a case you may have against somebody. So that's how pretty much I wrote this up. But the most significant thing I found of all the discrepancies regarding Dillinger's, you know, these various things that didn't match from his known characteristics to what they found in the autopsy, for instance, one of the big things is that the autopsy said he had brown eyes and Dillinger was known to have these vivid, really unique gray eyes, which, you know, I think someone that has gray eyes, I would describe that as maybe like really striking black, blue eyes, you know, you know, there's a, people have a lot of theories as to why that's zero. - Yeah, before we roll down, the eye theory, is we're going into the next episode, but this episode, let's stick to the ear theory. - Yeah, yeah, so it's always going to say. So, you know, that's just one of the things that's out there that has been previously, you know, pointed out and talked about and discussed, but as I looked at it, I looked at several pictures of Dillinger that, you know, when he was in the morgue. And something, I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Something's not right. What am I not seeing here that doesn't look right? And it suddenly occurred to me that the ears don't look right. The ears do not match. So, I did a deep dive on John Dillinger's ears from every angle I could find. Any picture that I saw of him, either dead or alive, I studied the exact features of his ears and there's without a doubt, without doubt, the ears do not match. There is just absolutely no question about it. Now, some people may say, well, you know, the ears are going to look different depending on the angle of the camera, the distance of the camera, all these other factors. What's the cameras? They weren't high definition cameras either back then. It's not high definition cameras, but I'm telling you they are good enough that, you know, if I don't care what the position of the camera is, the age of the camera, the distance, I don't care what it is, if you take a picture of somebody that, you know, a known person, you can tell that that's that person. Now, they may look different slightly in picture, you know, in just different pictures, but it's the same person. So it's the same thing with the ears. There's a shape, there's a formation to the ears. And I'm talking the internal structures of the ear, the shape of the outer lobe of the ear, the tragus, which is like the big meaty part right there, you know, that, you know, that kind of protects the ear canal, all these things, the angle of the ears as it sits on the head was different. - So let me ask you this, Stuart, let me just pause you. When it comes, 'cause I'm gonna, what I'm gonna do is I'm actually gonna pull up the pictures now of what we have. - Yeah. - And then you can kind of go in depth on the pictures. I'll try to use my mouse as best as possible to showcase it. But something I want you to address before you really hit that there's reports that he had facial surgery prior to the biographical six weeks prior. - Yes. - Was the ears part of that facial? - Well, it actually wasn't even six months, Joe, it was from May to July, so it was just a couple of months. He had facial surgery. I think he had a couple of moles removed. He had a dimple in his chin that was worked on. Some other maybe minor facial characteristics. He had his fingerprints obliterated so that we'll get into another episode about how the fingerprints or how that actually works. But in the very tips of your fingers, there's either a loop, whirl or an arch. And that is like the beginning point of how you do fingerprint identification. And Dillinger and a buddy of his had the very, very tips of their fingers mutilated so that it would prevent fingerprint identification. And this was done just a couple of months before the Biograph Theater. And so it could be argued that that's one thing that certainly was different about them. There are accounts that his friend that was, his name was Homer Van Meter, that Van Meter, some people joked to him about, "Man, you went through all this pain, misery and cost to have this plastic surgery, and I can still tell it's you." So the plastic surgery did not do anything drastic that you couldn't look like a completely different person. It was very, very minor as far as the facial stuff went. But there's no indication that I've read in detail the surgeon and it's a stretch calling them a surgeon. But the physician that actually did the plastic surgery, the FBI located him and did a very detailed report. - Who was he? - As we're sitting here, I'm talking the name. It's in the report. - It's in the report, there's two or two doctors. - Okay, yeah. And he gave a very detailed account of all the procedures. There was nothing indicated that the ears were involved in any way. In fact, actually, I'm not aware that there's any type of plastic surgery involving the ears. Maybe there is, but certainly nothing that would, beyond just a very drastic surgery in case there's a real big deformity of some kind of the ears. - Not to this level that we're looking at here on the screen. So, okay, so these guys aren't really plastic surgeon, the physician that did this, it still looked like them. So it didn't touch the ears. That's what I'm hearing you say. - Yes. - I mean, frankly, for me, on here, at first glance, it does look like John Dillinger on the right-hand side. I mean, at first glance, if you look at the face, if you look at the overall, the face, the nose matches, the eyebrows, the shape of the eyebrows match, the mouth, the chin, literally everything matches, the hairline, but when you look at those ears, they just, they don't match. They don't lay on the head the same angle. - What are these two pictures? Explain to people what they are. - Okay, so-- - That we're looking at. - Okay, so the picture on the left and the one on the top left corner and the one on the bottom left corner, the bottom left is just a zoom in of that, the one on the top left and same thing on the right. Okay, so the one on the top left is from a mug shot, a profile mug shot from an arrest of Dillinger in Tucson, Arizona in early 1934, January '34. The one on the top right is in the morgue in July '34. So just really, literally a few months apart. And man, if you just look at that in general, I'd say that's the same guy, without a doubt. I mean, very much alike. But man, when you zoom in on those ears, the ears just don't match. - No, if in for laymen's sake here, the outer part of the ears are thinner than the outer part of the ears on the mug shot. And also, the blood is still on his face from the shooting. So this is an autopsy picture it looks like from before they cleaned them up off after the shooting. - Yeah, so one thing that I had pondered about this was, so just to be graphic for a second, I hope some of our listeners are not put off by this, but as far as how an autopsy works is, if there's a trigger warning right now that, you know, if you don't wanna hear what the trigger, if you don't wanna hear some graphic details about autopsies right now, I'd probably fast forward a couple of minutes here. So the way it works is an autopsy and incision is made really from maybe just in front of the ear all the way across the top of the scalp, the, so basically the scalp is cut in half, then the front part is peeled forward just above the eyebrows. And so, in the back is peeled back to expose the skull cap. And then using either a handsaw or an electric saw, a cut is made in the top of the skull cap that exposes the brain that they can do what they need to do from there. And in this process, I thought, you know, maybe in stretching and pulling that skin off of the skull that, you know, it could have be the explanation for why these ears don't match. But, I mean, we're talking- The tendons and ligaments, right? Stuart, like when you pull- Yeah, I mean- We could imagine you're pulling. Yeah, yeah, you're pulling facial skin off the skull on the top, and like you can imagine, especially when you're making incisions and such in the skull cap itself, that maybe the ears just don't snap back into place after. Exactly, so I mean, you know, that, for me, that was one explanation, but here's the deal. So, you actually don't have to pull the skull or the scalp that far down to where it would involve the ears. And what we're seeing here, the picture that's on the bottom that the viewers can see right now, the picture on the bottom, that's actually pre-autopsy, because in the sequence of how an autopsy's done, that, you know, there's an external examination of the body as it is, and, you know, nothing's cleaned off. So, but by the time they get ready to make incisions and to actually, you know, study the internal parts of the body, they're going to clean the body off. So-- Even back then, they wouldn't have made a mistake with him and done the autopsy right now, like with his face still bloody from the shooting. No, because there's actually pictures of him cleaned up in the morgue before, that clearly where an autopsy has not been done. There are some actually some pictures of him that we know from in the funeral home. So, clearly, that would have been post-autopsy, where he, man, he just doesn't look right. It's just not him. I know he's been in bomb as well, but, man, there's a funkiness to it when they, you know, when they just put him back together, it just didn't quite look right. But, yeah, this is going to be before that any incisions were made, you know, on the, anywhere near the skull or the ears or anywhere. - I can't believe this, I have to say this, but if you guys want to hear more about the ears, stay tuned for part two of this episode, which will be episode four coming up here in just a minute. If you just keep listening, we're gonna continue this conversation here on episode four. So, Stuart, I'm gonna pause you, because we're gonna take a break and we're gonna let the listeners kind of digest. There's been a lot discussed today. As you heard Travis, I also want Travis next episode. I want you to, the first thing to tell us is what was told to your grandfather and what your family experienced when it came to seeing John's body for the first time, what you've been told through your family timeline. - Definitely, I'd love to share that. - So, we're gonna pause, but we'll be right back. If you just want to keep listening, just go to the next episode. And we really appreciate you all here. We're so excited, this is a dream come true for a lot of us, all of us. So, thank you. Todd, you want to come back too? - Yeah, I'll be there, I'll be there. - This is great. All right, everybody, you stay tuned and keep digging. The Digging of Dillinger podcast is produced by Joe Malillo and Grace Hodge, the music produced by Eddie Bandis. Follow us on TikTok, Facebook, and YouTube. Until next time, keep digging. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)