Trevor and Christiana are joined by Jody Avirgan, one of What Now?’s Executive Producers. In the wake of the July 13th assassination attempt on Donald Trump, they discuss people’s fascination with how the event “moves the plot forward,” the impact of the media’s need to feed the 24-hour news cycle with “developing story” updates (both accurate and inaccurate), and whether the greater issue at stake is actually America’s self-image and a failure to learn from historic moments.
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imagine going to a restaurant where they don't give you the meal they just keep giving you like one ingredient as you're sitting at the table and so when you sit down you're like oh I'm having rice oh no wait wait I'm having a rice stew oh no wait I'm having rice stew with beef oh no wait I'm having a rice stew with beef and also some chili oh no wait I'm having that's exactly what they do with the news you're listening to what now the podcast where I chat to interesting people about the conversations taking over our world this week we're talking about the story that has been on everyone's minds the assassination attempt against Donald Trump and now we're here asking will this change the way Americans votes will this change Donald J. Trump and will America learn from its past will just continue the story of American exceptionalism now the only thing I love more than peeling back the layers of a story is doing it with my favorite thinkers so once again I'm joined by writer journalist and professional hater Christian embark where Medina and one of what now's very own executive producers Jody Abagn. Do we want a game plan? I am reporting on my side this is what now with Trevor Noah. This episode is presented by Lulu Lemon. Everyone has those moments where they say not today when it comes to fitness I mean I know I do well Lulu Lemon Restorative Gear is made for those days days where you want to max out your rest and not your reps Lulu Lemon's new campaign features Odell Beckham Jr. and DK Metcalf in their buttery soft breathable restorative wear designed to keep up or kick back with you visit lulu lemon calm for everything you need to bring it tomorrow rest day is the best day Apple card is the perfect cashback rewards credit card burn up to 3% daily cashback on every purchase every day then grow it at 4.40 percent annual percentage yield when you open a savings account with Apple card visit apple.co/card calculator to see how much you can earn Apple card subject to credit approval savings available to Apple card owners subject to eligibility savings accounts provided by Goldman Sachs bank USA member FDIC terms apply this episode is brought to you by Ricola I think we can all agree that having an irritated throat is one of the worst feelings thankfully there's an easy solution Ricola cherry drops it provides the soothing throat relief you need and even better it's packed with flavor so you can make every day more delicious and still feel great try Ricola cherry drops now to find out where to buy it near you visit Ricola calm happy podcast day everybody happy podcast day happy podcast day this is this is a this is a fun one yeah there's a there's an extra voice joining us we've got a Jodi who's usually running the back end of everything I don't even know what you do Jodi I think you just have a bigger computer than me yeah I like to keep it that way an air of mystery this is this is fun having you on Christiana how are you I'm hanging in there got back from London I hate British Airways just want to shout them out they lost my buggy but they got it back to me but everything's good everything's good nice nice everyone everyone back and look at all of us we all came back to the United States at the the most one of the most interesting times to come back to the United States let me ask you a question where were you when the shooting happened I was where I always am in my house with my kids I'm doing anything I love the most boring life Trevor I believe I was texting with you at around that moment but I don't know I may have I may have broken the news to you or at least said something like hey have you are you seeing this Trump news and then you I think responded with oh God this is bad this is bad this is bad or some version of that literally it's funny the two people I was speaking to about when I was speaking to you like like literally around when it happened yeah and I was speaking to Josh it was so crazy that you know like like all the people I was talking to are the people that I speak to around the podcast and the conversations we have so in an assassination attempt the first thing everybody said was huh Trump's gonna win he's he's gonna win now in most places in the world when a well-known figure who yes is political is the subject of an attempted assassination the first thought in most people says wouldn't be about the politics the first thing people would think about is the human being oh no how hurt is the person was somebody else shot next to them who was shooting is everyone okay it was amazing to me how the shooting happened there's a picture of Trump like he's he's grazed by the glass I guess from the bullet fragment flying or whatever it was and a lot of people their first reaction was oh well now he's definitely gonna win and I was like damn so is everything is everything in America now about politics that's what I found myself wandering like even coming into this this this podcast like is is this the end of America not in not in like a doom and gloom way but can a country function in a meaningful way if everything in that country is always reduced to its politics do you know what I mean yeah and but I say like my observations as an outsider I think it's because like violence is so ambient in America but I think and I say this as a mother of a young son I think this is a deeper story about disaffected young men and I think they normally hurt women but this one hurt one of the most powerful men in the world I think to me that's the biggest story I'm like how was this kid in his parents house and they missed that he was gonna try and kill a former president and that's kind of been lost you know mental health and young men I think that to me is a more concerning thing because I think there are a lot of young men like the killer and perhaps they will not harm a presidential candidate but I think they're gonna harm the people around them oh damn like America has had other presidents assassinated it's had other recent attempted assassinations I think Obama had like a bomb intercepted to his house sent in like 2018 so it's just like I think violence and America are hand-in-hand so that wasn't like the peculiar thing about it I think for most America Americans the peculiarity is that it actually happened in election year because I think with Reagan it happened like three years before he was running yeah and so I was just like well there are some sort of stakes and America is a country that just runs on plot and vibes so people were like what does this do to the plot yeah so I just think they were just like business as usual in the business right now is an election but your your notion of it as what does this do for the plot I mean gets it the way that we've turned politics into this kind of spectacle and reality show and so this lands as like a plot twist right it's like okay now what what does it mean as opposed to asking these more fundamental questions that you're getting at Trevor but I mean I'm curious for the two of you like since you don't have to cover the election day to day do you get the space to think about what this really means at a bigger level and not immediately have to go to okay what does this mean for the next plot point when I when I was watching the news coverage on this I realized that we are deep in the depths of experiencing every single symptom of having 24 hour news like when I was growing up I don't know about you we used to see the news when the news came on right it was it was both concise and abroad at the same time they they did their research they covered things I don't know if you tried to watch the news when this was happening these people planted the seed for every single conspiracy theory you can imagine I mean every single conspiracy theory and I go how do you expect a country to interact with their reality when their reality is constantly being shaped in like micro moments and changes and you know it's somebody he was shot there were multiple shooters there were five shooters there was two shoot there was one shooter it goes back the secret service saw him they didn't see him the police were with him they weren't with him and I was just going like like what do you think this is gonna this is gonna lead to other than chaos that to be honest with you that's probably my the thing I'm in enjoying most now is that in my life I get to just pause for a moment to think before having to do or say and I man I wish America gave itself that luxury because after an event like this the thing that people need the least is speculation and conspiracy it doesn't it doesn't make the situation any better like all it does is you know leave people in a space where like a week later you have every every single idea about this shooting out there you know the government did it Biden did it Trump did it to himself I felt that like just journalistically the news did a good the best job it could possibly give given it's like a ever-changing situation what I found exhausting was the analysis machine and I think Trevor that's what you're talking about more like the hot take machine that seems to be part of right now that's exactly what I was watching Anderson Cooper is like it's developing and then every time they would get something that was verified I think CNN everyone's verification was very good on this I think but I'm but I'm saying even the developing is not necessary we've been we've been lulled into this this idea that we need to see news developing and we don't I would object I would say this is like a former journalist I know you don't I'll be I'll be honest with you this is where maybe like we'll fight with a bunch of people maybe we'll disagree you don't you surely this is a big enough story Trevor now Jodi it doesn't change your life it doesn't affect your world it doesn't again I'm not saying like now you can undo the news you know maybe I'll save that for for one of our episodes of if I ruled the world but like I just I just I don't think that it helps anybody because here's the problem if it's always developing it means that you leave each viewer and each listener at a different state or in a different place of knowing or not knowing because that's what they got at that time as opposed to just saying hey this has happened we'll let you know when we have concrete details look Trevor I feel like what you're getting at and I completely agree is that cable news is built to take every story and make it feel as big as something like this right it dials everything up to an 11 but then so that way that but then some stories are an 11 and this it was an 11 but because everything has been flattened at that height it's hard to kind of know what's real what's not and so forth but I mean this feels like you know top five stories that we've lived through this kind of rises to that bar no but actually to Trevor's point because of the nature of the American US news cycle in this country there's just so much plot in this country it's hard to keep up the half-life of stories is so short that this story already feels almost old because like yes it does he's got the patch on his air he looks like a gangster by the way you know I mean it's just like always recovering pretty well he's picked a VP pick and we're discussing JD Vance now more than the fact that Trump got shot yeah I think you know to your point Jody I'm not saying the thing isn't an 11 but I'm saying you know when when we think about the purpose of news I would assume and now it's a business but the purpose of news should be to inform people if you were if you were flying in a plane and a pilot told you about every micro moment of what he was possibly experiencing that would not be a comfortable that's my dream flight I love information Trevor I'm so anxious yeah I want to know what you want to be overwhelmed mean oh yeah no okay so I'll give you guys a story I was on a flight once and it was a small plane and we were flying back from I think it was like New Hampshire one of these places and we we were in a storm and it's one of those flights where you pray to every God you've ever thought existed and you you you you lament every mistake you've made you you atone for every sin you've ever even considered in your life and this plane I mean we shook for at least 20 odd minutes which is a long time in that kind of weather we land we're fine and when we're disembarking I stop and I asked the pilots I say hey how bad was that and the pilot said I'm gonna be honest with you for a second I thought it might be it might be over for us the events still happen Jodie this is what I'm saying nothing changed in my life but what the pilot prevented me from experiencing was the up and down of him developing in the imagine him saying mid flight I think it's over I don't know if we're gonna make it okay maybe we are gonna make it it's gotten really bad the wings the the strain on the wings okay guys I think I've got this thing oh we're all gonna die call your families actually no I think I'm gonna say that's not necessary and I get what you're saying it is developing it is factual these are things that are being verified but for the passengers and that's what people are in a society that's what people are in a in a country you are the passengers and so to the point that you're making you then walk out on the other side with people who are more terrified than they should be less terrified than they should be you know because now when the plane lands some people walk off going like ah just another day in the air and you like no no this is one of the craziest things that's ever happened a former president of the United States in an election year a few months away from an election was almost assassinated it is not another day yeah but Trevor can I say that like most people are like me they're like give me the information they actually don't care if it's wrong that's the dangerous thing they just want to be satiated they want information I hear you even someone like myself who I consider myself quite informed and measured I'm like okay did Trump get his shoes like where my shoes which I know that was amazing can I just say can I just say about him so relatable he was just like I need my shoes I need my shoes that's if I've been to Trump issues no you know it but it's just like it's such a stupid little detail but like you just fixate on something and you want there's an information vacuum and I think the media just plays to our lowest selves like and I admit that's my lowest self who just like wants to know if Trump has his shoes you know where was Melania this you know you're you're about to start another conspiracy theory which can we just talk about that for a second how how is it that everything is conspiracy now and in the and I mean what I mean by everything is I don't remember living in another time or another time in my life when everything was conspiracy like every and I mean everything you know even if you take a step away from this Trump like coronavirus everything was conspiracy yeah you know the election everything is conspiracy in this shooting I know people personally who think that Trump did this himself he set this up because he wanted to show that he's stronger than Biden that's what I know some people have said I know some people who believe that this was the Secret Service doing this to Trump to stop him I know people who think that this was Joe Biden and the deep state coming for Trump because they realize it's inevitable that he wins do you think Biden could remember an assassination attempt like I just think he would think yeah what a scary will to live in where everybody is witnessing the same thing and nobody believes it yeah from from every angle nobody believes it that my friends give me Trevor I'll just point out you know it is in the same environment that you highlighted earlier where there's more news than ever and yet somehow less certainty than ever and that I think is the real toxic moment we've reached to where it's just like we're swimming and information but it's been degraded to a point where no one knows what's real or can sort of actively choose to believe anything and believe nothing at the same time but did you to me at least this specific incident the conspiracy theories coming out of them just didn't feel like they had the juice like I just felt like people were going through the motions of doing the conspiracy theory thing which is a problem in and of itself but I felt like a lot of those just kind of got dispensed with pretty quick I will say what kind of concerns me is how many of my same friends think it was staged really still yeah like people are still I was like hey wait you're my smart friend you're the person that got me to do the vaccine what do you mean you think it was staged like and what's behind that I think it just feels so surreal perhaps maybe that's it Trevor can I can I also okay now here's something that I'm gonna throw in as well sometimes in a moment you're experiencing the culmination of many small events that have led to this this moment it does not help Donald Trump's cause that he's the same guy who held a press conference with his tax returns that was stacked like like little skyscrapers on a table and it was all blank pieces of paper those are actually how he files his taxes Trevor just blank pieces of paper I mean to shame our friend actually yeah it doesn't help that Donald Trump is the same guy who held a press conference when Hillary was like winning you know in one of her primaries and he had Trump stakes and Trump water and Trump and none of it was actually Trump stakes or Trump water or any of it he had taken stuff and just put a Trump label on it I'm not saying I'm not saying that he wasn't shot at I'm not saying but I'm saying that like Trump also plays into the theater of things you've watched a magician do a thousand tricks yeah why would you not think this is a thousand and one I get where these people are coming from even though I don't agree with it I get where they're coming from but now I will also point out that next week the two of you are having a conversation with a disinformation expert who I think will be able to pick up a lot of these ideas but yes like we've reached this point where no one knows what to believe and I would say that is actually the project of this information misinformation is to completely destabilize what you think is true rather than sort of plant a specific wrong idea in someone's head and so I mean I'm just curious for the two of you if you feel like there's a way to unwind any of that and whether a moment like this which brings out all the conspiracy theories in theory could it be a moment I'm not even believing this as I asked this but in theory could it be a moment where people kind of take thought why am I asking this question you were trying you know it was admirable watching you actually you were you know when Joe Biden says lower the temperature gosh there's there's still that part of me that says maybe we can if you had asked me this like a year ago I probably would have given you a different answer but now we're in like an AI world because funny enough that was one of my immediate thoughts when people were sending me you know the photo with the blood and he's got the stuff I was like oh this must be in it because it was such a great shot pun unintended I was like there's no way that like this is real I was like this must be the AI version of the thing that happened and then people telling me know it's real it's like an AP verified image yeah now we're in this world of AI I just don't see how we put the genie back in the bottle because it's like so much that is true feels like disinformation and disinformation looks like the truth you know it's interesting Jody I don't know if I'm gonna answer your question or maybe I'll ask a question back to you does it matter and here's what I mean by that this event I'm gonna be honest with you I don't think it shifted anyone in any direction this is a crazy statement I know I'm making a crazy statement but I don't think it shifted anyone in like I know some people go like ah Trump's definitely gonna win and I'm like okay who who who's gonna you know they're like oh well Elon Musk he now came out and he said please Elon Musk was a closet Trump supported the whole time and he wasn't even doing a good job of like hiding in that closet like Elon was like I will remain neutral and I will no longer participate in the yeah but we all knew Elon we all knew you know what I mean quacks like a duck walks like a duck come on Elon so the question I asked is like does it matter like in terms of elections I think election the activities matter the you know what's happening matters but even with all the AI Christiana even with all the it feels like America is now getting to a place where its politics is so metastasized that there is no movement there is no surprise French election in America anymore there is no surprise South African election in America anymore there is no surprise UK election in America anymore no Americans are like hey we are 50-50 Democrat Republican and then there's gonna be a few hundred thousand people who decide who the president is but otherwise we don't switch we don't flip and until the population itself changes I don't know if it matters to be honest with you don't go anywhere cuz we got more what now after this this episode is brought to you by Ricola I think we can all agree that having an irritated throat is one of the worst feelings thankfully there's an easy solution Ricola cherry drops it provides the soothing throat relief you need and even better it's packed with flavor so you can make every day more delicious and still feel great try Ricola cherry drops now to find out where to buy it near you visit Ricola calm this episode is brought to you by the podcast tools and weapons with Brad Smith you know one of my favorite subjects to discuss is technology because when you think about it there are few things in the world that can improve or destroy the world like the technologies that humans create the question is how do we find the balance well one of my favorite podcast that aims to find the answers to these questions is hosted by my good friend Brad Smith the vice chair and president of Microsoft from AI to cybersecurity and even sustainability every episode takes a fascinating look at the best ways we can use technology to shape the world follow and listen to tools and weapons with Brad Smith on Spotify now do you guys want to laugh I text Trevor I was just like I hope the shooter is not black and what did I say no way yeah there's no why let me tell you something zero zero chance let me tell you that made me laugh like we don't do that shit my friend you are gonna text me a message when a former president someone has tried to shoot them with a rifle from a rooftop somewhere and you like I hope it's not a black man I was like there is you Christian I didn't even say I hope so too I was like no no no there is no way let me tell you something there is no chance that a black man is climbing up a building that the secret service is in or around me careful now yo yo yo yo let me tell you something let me tell you some I'll say this first of all on a human level I was really happy that Trump was not shot I was I was sad that somebody behind him was shot like just it's like it's not fun in any way do you know what I mean but I know I saw some people who were saying like they were like oh man I'm not gonna lie I'm a little sad that that guy missed I'm a little and I was like genuinely I said to these people I was like you should thank every lucky star that you can think of that that did not happen because I don't know about you but I do not think I would be as comfortable after Trump had been shot and kill yo Trump's people after seeing their guy in many ways think about it like think of think of like how much Obama inspired hope and change in black people and young people and then imagine like if he got taken out before he was gonna be president or before his second term or whatever the ground swell of hopelessness that could then calcify into revenge I don't think I want to be I don't want to be I don't want to be witness to that I I was so happy first of all just on a human level I was like man thank God okay it didn't happen great all right didn't happen but then I was like yo thank thank goodness for a lot of people it didn't happen because I really feel like America could very quickly become a tit for tat in this place yeah where it's like every other politician would just have to cancel all their public speaking events you know yeah I mean that's like you know World War Civil War level stuff if someone gets killed and yes I will always be glad that we don't go down that path but the vengeance retribution martyrdom angle is really interesting because Trump was already playing that card a ton already and I'm just curious what the next few months are gonna look like with him now dialing that way way way up and then seemingly also Democrats really being unsure how to criticize the man while still trying to play the civility politics in this moment and I just feel like we're gonna get you know like really asymmetrical soul searching the next few months he can't bring it up too much because I think like whatever you think about Trump I think he's like a brilliant political animal with great political instincts and he knows that if you talk so much about that type of harm you look weak so I'm I'm interested in about when he will deploy it and why because I don't think he's gonna he's not gonna wear the patch on his air forever like he's not gonna be vanguard forever right he's gonna know like I need to stop at a certain point and I'm just curious about how he will deploy it because I don't think he'll exploit it constantly because he's just like it's also a picture of you on the ground with blood on your face even if you have your fist right you're in a weaker position I yeah I also think you know that there are there are times in life where we can forget that the people we disagree with are actually human beings yo say what you want about Donald Trump if somebody tries to shoot your head off and a bullet flies past your head like you did you see that shot by the way in the New York Times where the bullet is like right behind his head incredible let me tell you something there is no human being unless you are really crazy there's no human being who does not have a little bit of their life altered yep by the whisper or the introduction of your instant mortality yeah that moment there like yeah you go like oh he raised his fist and guys adrenaline is a mother don't even play games like yeah I've done things when I have adrenaline in me where I'm like yo good yeah and then you know what comes after adrenaline shock yeah and you know because because I'll tell you now if Trump was as maybe callous is the wrong word as callous and calculated as people think he is like only on that level no this guy would have put out a video quick quick going like hey donate we're gonna beat the Democrat they try to kill me come on but he's been uncharacteristically quiet about it all even at the Republican convention you know when people were clapping for him and when they were he smiled in a sheepish way that you don't you don't normally see Trump and now please I'm not saying that now all of a sudden Trump is gonna turn around and be you know all kumbaya and whatever but I I think on a psychological level we should never take for granted that this human being has experienced what he's experienced and now the question will be how does he respond to that experience also to add to that does he does he think it's less of a game because we remember everyone still thinks it's a game everyone is like let me tell you what this means and we're gonna do oh and the polls under this yeah but for the person where the bullet was coming for them it's not a game they're the person who goes damn if if I'm divisive do I do I get shot in am I gonna get shot in the head yeah also Trump has always spoken like someone that's never been punched in the face like I can tell like you grew up in an environment where you could say what you want but there was never a threat of like yeah from South London listen you say the rock they wait there's a thing we say chat shit get banged which basically means that if you say then wrong thing someone may slap you or tump you up chat shit get banged but it's like I think this is probably the first time he has been attacked in a very visceral way because he's always been like guarded and protected from that and this took for that to happen at his age it's definitely gonna take a psychological toll but it could just be fuel for more insanity which I think he may use it for that because I think he he thrives of fear and trauma in a dark way Trevor I agree with you I think I want to agree with you that this will be but I will just point out people have been asking the will this cause some soul searching for Donald Trump they've been asking that question basically every three months for the last eight nine years and it still hasn't happened and so maybe this is different yeah but I'm saying like to those people I go I don't understand why they were asking about about everything else you know and I mean this honestly I just go like why would he soul search and what would he be soul searching for no I agree but I'm just saying that there's a little bit of ongoing sort of wishful thinking about Donald Trump's capacity to do that kind of soul searching I also agree that if there's anything getting shot at it's like so crazy like totally I will also point out the other dynamic though which is a little bit more of the sort of politics of it but yes Trump has been restrained and maybe that is even he realizes at a person on a political level that's the sort of right mode to be it but you know a lot of Republicans Donald Trump Jr. included their first reaction was look what the Democrats have done they tried to jail us they tried to kick us out now they're trying to kill us we got to get after them and Donald Trump just picked JD Vance who was the most forceful senator on that line you know coming out right away saying this was the Democrats that did this and he picks JD Vance to be his vice president so maybe he's tactically you know playing this game where it's okay I'm gonna surround myself by people who are gonna say the thing that I don't you know feel like I'm in a position to say yeah I don't know as somebody it's funny as somebody who has spent way too much of their time and life like studying and and watching and learning about Donald Trump like I you know what I mean I've spent I've been in the doldrums of Trump I agree with Christiana first of all the man's never been punched in the face and secondly people take for granted how much of a showman Donald Trump is like how much he thinks of politics as a game so there's there's this element of Trump that yes you're right Christiana uses fear uses anxiety uses anger uses those things but oftentimes he's not using his yeah he's not using his he's stoking your fear yeah he's using your anger he's using your anxiety but he's not the one who's being shot at and I'm just saying I'm not saying that this will or won't be soul-searching time I'm just saying you you you I struggle to believe that on a human level this man because we don't live in like a crazy like country in the world where people are getting assassinated all the time I think it is it's hard for me to believe that this person will not be moved one way or the other by this now he could become like you know he could go I'm it's not a show anymore actually which might to be honest scares me a little bit you know Trump might come out of this thinking you guys want you actually do want me dead and actually I'm coming for you it might turn into that or he might go man you know maybe I temper myself or maybe I I don't know but I I struggle to believe that this type of thing believes you walking away emotionally unscathed yeah and I think Donald Trump is human enough that there will be some sort of like effect or ramification that's I mean yeah that's how I see him as a person I agree Trevor like when I say he's a political animal but like like a political animal he's been wounded and he's traumatized like there's no way you get shot in you're not traumatized how he metabolizes that remains to be seen but I don't think he's the idea that he's just gonna be it's Trump as usual that I think that diminishes his humanity and not in a way like oh he's so human I'm like he's still a human being this is not a god it's a human being that went through a very human experience and that's gonna change him now Jody if it's like I don't think it's gonna be a come-to-jesus moment but I think it be it be diminishing his humanity to act like this yeah this isn't gonna have like a really huge impact on his psyche because gangster at is not a joke at all we'll be right back after this short break this episode is brought to you by Bogata Hotel Casino and Spa in Atlantic City you're perfect getaway immerse yourself in the style and sophistication of Atlantic City's number one gaming resort where elegance meets entertainment and luxury awaits at every turn if you're ready for an unforgettable experience visit the Bogata.com to book your stay today must be over 21 to gamble gambling problem call 1-800 gambler Apple card is the perfect cashback rewards credit card but up to 3% daily cashback on every purchase every day then grow it at 4.40% annual percentage yield when you open a savings account with Apple card visit apple.co/card calculator to see how much you can earn Apple card subject to credit approval savings available to Apple card owners subject to eligibility savings accounts provided by Goldman Sachs Bank USA member FDIC terms apply can I ask the two of you a question about the people who are were worried about Trump becoming president the day before he got shot and are still worried about Trump becoming president and how they now lodge those same critiques I mean from my eyes Democrats are having a real hard time finding and owning that language what do you see you know it it's it's actually funny you say that whenever whenever I think about that the baby Hitler paradox I always think about like what makes it a paradox is you know people simplify it and you joke about and you're like oh if you could go back in time and kill Hitler as a baby would you and some people like of course you would and then you're like but you're killing a baby who hasn't done anything and they're like yeah but that doesn't matter you know what they're gonna do and in this case if Trump is showcasing many of the traits that could lead to a country a republic or whatever where people have their right stripped away people don't have free speech people are you know terrified of the government I think people are not wrong to highlight the similarities of that person to historical figures who have led their countries to a similar place I think to be honest with you too much time has been spent on vilifying Trump as a character like other politicians as opposed to like what Cristiano was saying which is like focusing on the issues that affect the people you know when you go like this man is an evil man and he's he will destroy the country and it's like yeah all of that is it's populism and it's like okay I get its messaging but to Cristiano's point if you really go to people hey this guy and the people he's coming into power with firmly believe that women should not decide what happens inside their own bodies and so this is what your reality is gonna be I still think you're able to to have a thrust without making the person the devil and so I think if democratic politicians are unable to find thrust now then I go then you're not a good politician and you're not you're not good at messaging because it's not just about Donald Trump the same way it's not just about Joe Biden by the way you know that the in the same way they're having the argument where they're like yes I know he's old yes I know he stumbles but remember it's about the administration and look at what he's Justice Department is doing and and look at what he's done for the environment and look yeah yeah all of that is true so by that same logic then why are you only going after Donald Trump why aren't you going after the ideas why aren't you go going after the liberties that people may lose why aren't you going after what his establishment would essentially mean for people so I think if if your only line of attack is him as a person and how vile he is well then you you also don't have like a good game plan that's not enough to get people mobilized and to keep them mobilized people want to know how does it affect my paycheck how does it affect my gas tank how does it affect my body how does it affect my health care how does it affect my children these are the things that most people are actually voting on and so I think like vile or not vile I actually I don't know Jody I Christiana do you yeah I think it's probably like our foreigners being kind of like anti-cult of the personality charisma politics yeah maybe like I think when you come from a country where people tend to vote more for the party than the person who's running that party at the time it kind of creates a different matrix through which he like view the political system and I think if you say to Americans forget Trump think about the Heritage Foundation think about the fact that they are reintroducing Bibles into public schools think about bodily autonomy that messaging has actually worked because the red wave never happened if we look at all the midterms when they've just been like to women hey this governor wants to make sure you can't have abortion the Republican have come out and been like nope nope that like that's a step too far for her so I think if the Democrats are able to talk about that and less than Trump himself that to me is a lot more effective because you know Trump you you know where you stand on him if you like him you like him if you don't you don't I don't think there's swaying people either way but I agree when you talk about the economy when you talk about women's bodies when you talk about what's happening schools and I guess as a parent I know the school's thing is so fraught right now and I think if Democrats can focus on that I'll make a big difference you know well this is where it comes full circle back to you know this thing we started with on oh this is clearly gonna help Trump win but you know I think not so fast and I think anyone who's saying this is gonna change the election result in this way or this way is just really doesn't know what they're talking about I mean we've learned over and over that like the best you can do as a journalist or a thinker or someone who cares whether country is just sort of assessed the present because it's about all these underlying things you just highlighted and all the people who were kind of deciding this election on whether they like Trump's style or not have probably already made up their mind you know and and I think I think for me when I wrap it all up I think of it like this it's like one of the things that makes America one of the greatest countries in the world is that its story is punctuated with near misses where they come out victoriously you know it's always near misses pour a beer and if he didn't see them then this wouldn't have happened and and oh and almost and this almost happened while that's great for a movie I don't think it's a sustainable way for a country to exist because it then unfortunately means that the country doesn't necessarily have to learn because it keeps believing in its own exceptionalism in every moment you know so like this is this is another instant because Trump didn't get killed because Trump didn't get assassinated is America going to learn anything from this lesson or is America going to now sit and say yeah more punditry and more fighting around it and more it's like no no no but but okay but what would you have done if it happened would you then have just turned it into this game would you have what would you have learned and and it's so hard you know my mom used to say this to me all the time she'd go life will keep teaching you the same lesson until you learn it and the lesson will become more and more and more impactful each time and she was like it will start with a scratch and it'll end with death until you learn that lesson and the thing like as a kid I didn't really understand it but over time I've come to realize what it means is like you really want to try and fix these things when it is just a scratch you want to figure out how to speak to disaffected young men disaffected young white men who have been told that they have no future everything's been stolen from them it's all gone to shit what whatever it might be how do you reach them before they grab their parents rifle and go and try and shoot you know a presidential candidate or former president you you how do you have conversations about guns before somebody is is shot like this you know I mean because people forget yes they missed Trump but they killed somebody yeah yeah you know and and in the story it's weird how like the person who was killed behind the person is almost like yeah who oh man how can I guess we it's like okay but why why is the bullet in that guy's head yeah less meaningful than the bullet in Trump's head and I don't know it's yeah president etc but I still go like yeah but we should we should still be learning the lesson but the lesson doesn't get learned as much because it was near misses or it almost hit the president yes but indeed they've lost a father they've lost a brother they've lost a friend and I know that guy politics and whatever don't get me wrong I've seen his tweets I've seen yeah but still who cares but still yeah like you know it's still yeah so so I I don't know Jodi it's like it's it's it's it's really tough you know I think of 9/11 and how when you read through the 9/11 report most of the things that could have stopped 9/11 with tiny little changes small little things that they could have done along the way lock a door here a little check there a person responding to an email and 9/11 doesn't happen but then what does America do it responds to the planes smashing into buildings by going and killing a million innocent people in another country in the Middle East do you get on yeah and so it's like once again I feel like we are witnessing a moment where a lesson may not be learned because it just grazed America's ear I mean instead of actually impacting it that's that's a very depressing thought chair I mean look I the last eight years or so for me have been largely speaking one in which I've seen this country kind of the the veil of American exceptionalism get get pierced you know in this country realize that like the stuff that can happen in other countries can happen can happen here it had not occurred to me until you just said it Trevor that the idea that there was just a near miss here could somehow in a twisted way reinforced American exceptionalism because it wasn't an actual assassination it was a near-assess that is a deeply twisted and depressing thought yeah because because I've seen so many Americans say yeah this is why God saved Trump and look at how strong he is and you can't take this man but I don't see enough people saying man I live in a country where the most powerful man in this country and yeah the former president let's say one of one of the most powerful people in this country also had to drop to their knees for fear that somebody was gonna shoot them yeah if that is happening to the top person I mean the like it's former president former like if that is happening up there man what hope is there for you and your your kid in the streets and your yeah who that's a that's a really really rough one for me so so I think in in that regard I go it it's a shame that America's exceptionalism will sometimes mean that it does not learn a lesson until it's too late yeah Trevor there's nothing to say to that it's perfect you're right well a ghost Spain in the euros yeah I don't know yeah well feel free to invite me back on anytime you have a light-hearted topic and I don't need to do that well this was you know what it's a it's a it's still it's look good conversation and I hope as an American we didn't we didn't depress you with our non-American thinking I hope we may be inspired you this is the perspective we need all right I'm serious we'll we'll we'll we'll make sure you're on for fun one as well we owe you one now we're not gonna bring you on for pilot we're just gonna have a fun conversation about you know candy Halloween episode huh best candy Jodi's joining us again you know they put razor blades in that candy Trevor well I tried that tried what now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions and full-well 73 the show is executive produced by Trevor Noah Ben Winston Sanaz yameen and Jodi Abigail our senior producer is just tackled Claire slaughter is our producer music mixing and mastering by Hannah's Brown thank you so much for listening join me next Thursday for another episode of what now you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you
