Game of Crimes
155: Part 1 - Steve Metelsky - Sinaloa Cartel, Hell’s Angels, and Asian Gangs in Canada
[music] Hey everyone, welcome back to the Game of Crimes with Murph in the Morning. You come to the right place if you want to see and hear some of the best true crime content anywhere. Now, this week's guest is a repeat, meaning this is his second appearance on Game of Crime, his name is Steve Matelsky, and he was our guest on episode 21 back in November of 2021. Wow, that's a ways back. It's not that I'm running out of new guests to bring on the show, but Steve is from Canada, has a ton of experience in law enforcement, and with that comes some fantastic stories. I'll tell you a little bit more about Steve here in a few minutes. But first of all, let me say thanks to all of you for listening to and watching now the Game of Crimes, and if you're watching this on YouTube, do me a favor right now, just click on that subscriber button, it'll only take you a second and it doesn't cost you a thing. This show wouldn't be possible without your support, I know that, and the fact that you keep coming back not only astounds me, it makes me wonder if maybe you might need a little professional counseling. Honestly, I do appreciate you giving me your time and I just can't thank you enough. I also want you to know that I do read your comments and I've received several comments about the introductions being too long. I'm always trying new ideas here to shorten this up a little bit and so I'll cover the housekeeping items at the end during our debrief rather than now during the introduction, so that'll save us a few minutes. And a quick disclaimer to get us going here, this is a show about crime. We talk about bad people doing bad things. We talk about bad people doing bad things to good people. I do take these stories very seriously. What's wrong with us having a little laugh about some of the crazy things the criminals do and what the cops have to put up with? And having said that, it's time for small town police blutter. Okay, let's get started here. I've got two stories for you today coming in from North Carolina and Kansas. So the first from North Carolina, a man arrested in North Carolina may have stashed, a 38 caliber revolver in his rear end according to police. He reported that the unloaded 10-inch weapon was not discovered until after the suspect had been booked into the cell at the county jail. I mean, he's already in the jail cell. Okay, so they missed it when they logged him in. His name is Michael Leon Ward, a 22-year-old Georgia resident. Go dogs, he was arrested after a trooper spotted him speeding. Ward, of course, he resisted arrest was subdued with the help of a stun gun. Now that's the video we need, right? A subsequent search of his vehicle resulted in additional charges of possession of marijuana and drug paraphernalia, no shock there. But it was only after Ward, who was a fugitive on a murder warrant out of Atlanta that sheriff's investigators discovered what else he possessed. According to the cops, Ward summoned Taylor to a cell claiming that someone was trying to kill him and that he discovered a gun inside his cell. The weapon was found in the toilet where Ward claimed he tossed it after finding it in his bunk. Now, if there's nobody else in the cell, how was somebody trying to kill him? But that's another story. Sheriff's investigators say they are investigating how Ward got the weapon into the jail since he had been stripped searched prior to being booked into the cell block. Ward was taken to a local hospital for possible injuries that may have occurred to his rear end where it is believed he may have concealed the revolver. The gun was test fired and found to be operational. I got to tell you, I saw a picture of this gun. It's a revolver with a six inch barrel and then you got the cylinder and you got to handle a total link 10 inches. How in the world do you do that? You know, I wonder if he had a concealed carry permit? I don't know, but it certainly brings a whole new definition to hosting your weapon, doesn't it? Okay, second story and we're in Kansas. A Kansas man was charged with lewd and lascivious behavior for his attempted attempts to have sex with the tailpipe of a parked automobile. We need to bring Morgan back on the show to find out more about what goes on in Kansas, don't we? Well, this article continues. It's Ron Malik. He's 23 years old. He was named in a criminal complaint, accusing him of exposing himself with the intent of a rousing or gratifying sexual desires. Okay, according to the cops, Malik was intoxicated. There's a shock when he was sought to when he sought to trust with a vehicle in Newton, Kansas, a city 25 miles north of Wichita. Local cops responding to a 911 call about a man beneath a vehicle. Discover Malik and daring to place his penis into the tailpipe of a car parked outside of an apartment complex. I'm sorry. Malik Newton resident was oblivious when initially contacted my police. I guess he was focused on what he was doing. His blood alcohol content was later measured at more than four times the legal limit. He continued trying to have sex with a tailpipe in the presence of the officers. Cops subsequently tased Malik. Well, that just take the iron out of you and pencil on it. They took him into custody and transported to a local hospital for treatment. The criminal complaint lists six witnesses who repeatedly saw Malik trying to have sex with a tailpipe. The leaked rap sheet includes arrest for marijuana possession and aggravated assault. Now, after I found this article and after I stopped laughing, I read some of the comments and I thought these were very appropriate. The first one I bet his experience was just exhausting. Okay, second, he thought it was a good idea, but it backfired. And last, forevermore, he'll be known as the bumper-humper. I hope you enjoy those stories. And again, that's just to put a little levity into some serious topics we come here. Plus, the criminals, they never cease to amace us. You'd think they'd learn from the mistakes, but that doesn't ever seem to be the case, does it? As I mentioned, today's guest is Steve Matoski, a retired 21-year veteran of the Halton Regional Police in Ontario, Canada, and also of the Combined Forces Special Enforcement Unit of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Steve specialized in organized crime, informant development, and undercover operations. Currently, he's a professor at Mohawk College in Hamilton, Ontario, where he teaches criminal psychology. He's also the author of a book called "Undercover," and he's doing a few other things that we'll hear about in the interview. If you wonder why I'm bringing Steve back, well, we all know the reputation that Canadians have, right? They're some of the nicest people in the world, and that's true. That really is true. But we also know there's a criminal element no matter where you go in the world, don't we? Steve knows I'm always interested in a good drug-related investigation, especially when it involves the Mexican cenoloa cartel. And you know what? It seems like almost any drug case these days can be traced back to El Chapo and his banda demons, right? So that's what we're going to talk about today. So it's time to go. It's time to get in, sit down, shut up, and hold on. Welcome back to the biggest, baddest, most dangerous game of all, the game of crimes. You know, we're just sitting here catching up with an old friend of mine, Steve Matowski, and we're, I guess we're getting old because we're talking about our health a little bit, going to the gym and working out, and the weather, and how hot it is, and getting in the swimming pool to cool off. And I thought, well, let's just talk about this on the show because it's, I think it's a sign of our age, Steve. What do you think, man? Absolutely, Murph. Yeah, I was just telling Murph that I'm up in Canada, and I'm only 45 minutes from the Buffalo New York border. And you know, we've been 90 degrees, 100 degrees the last two weeks. So if your listeners are out there, we get some pretty hot summers up here. Yeah, it's, I was just showing them, it's what I say, 83 degrees here now in Orlando. We're going to go to the mid 90s, but you guys are actually hotter in Canada than we are. And what does that have to do with today's show? It's just two old friends catching up. That's what this is about. And it's an honor to be back. Thanks so much for having me back, Murph, it's a real thrill. It is, and everybody, let me introduce you to Steve Matowski. He was a guest here on episode 21, back in November of 2021. One of our very first, let's see, you are our 21st guest on the show and we're in our fourth year now. So you're, you're almost a plank holder for Game of Crimes here. We were able to push Morgan on out a little bit, you know, so it wasn't his age. It's his hair. I just couldn't put up that damn hair anymore. And you don't want to talk about it. Well, I wish I could comment. I have, I'm wearing a hat. So you're, you know, to prevent the lining your YouTube viewers with the glare. So and we appreciate that. So just to give you a little bit of background, I'm Steve here. He was a 21 year veteran of the Halton Regional Police. Is that in Ontario, correct? That's correct. Just outside of Toronto. He retired as a sergeant, but he also worked with the combined forces special enforcement unit of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. And he specialized in organized crime, informative development, and undercover ops, man, informants just got blessed for putting up with them. That's, that's the bane of drug undercover work, isn't it? It's a 24/7 job because, you know, with these organized criminals, it takes a lot of time to get your craft down and to really work and hone on that. And I like using hockey analogies, Murph. I would always, you know, you're never going to score if you don't shoot, but you know, you would develop a diamond in the rough, whether it's an organized crime associate, an organized crime guy, a biker. And they're, believe it or not, when you develop that trust and rapport, you know, they would, they would call me over the holidays about sometimes even relationship advice. Like that's how, how much time you spend with these guys. I'm serious. It's like, it was great work. It was adrenaline inducing, but it really was time consuming. It was an investment. Yes, it was. It was. And it was the best evidence you can get like, and for this, you know this. I'm not trying to teach you something, Steve, but for our listeners, when we use informants, especially if they're meeting with bad guys, one of the things you want to do is get them to introduce a police officer so you can cut the informant out because there's always questions about their integrity on the stand and then they're lying about everything. They're lying to get out of charges. They're lying to make money. They're lying to take out competition. They're lying to get revenge. There's a lot of motivators for informants. It's always an uphill battle, it seems like they, they'll, even the good ones, they'll work for you, but you know they're running scams on the side. And as soon as they get caught by somebody else, the first thing to stay is, I work for Steve Mattelsky. And then they call, they call you and you're like, I didn't have a clue about this. But it's about jail. It puts you in such a jam. And you know, you have to give them so many rules and regulations. And probably one of the first and foremost ones is, you know, you're not, you're not an employee of this agency or this police service. And there's a long list of grosser items of things they can't do. And that obviously committing crimes. But you bring up a really good point, Murph. It's the motivating factors. And those can always change. They're never fixed. You know, it could be, they're giving you information about another organized crime group to seek revenge. So, you know, other investigators go out and do warrants and arrest them. And then it opens up the territory. Most times it's, it's drugs, it opens up an opportunity for them. So it's, you always have to assess and reassess their motivators and why they are meeting with you and a partner in a hotel room. And just to set up, like some of these, to give your listeners an idea of how much goes into sometimes setting up a meeting, especially if it's a high echelon informant, you know, we'll put them under surveillance. Obviously, they don't know they're being followed just to make sure they're crew, because they're all hyper paranoid or another crew. If somebody's trying to kill this guy, that they're not being followed. And typically what we would do is we would say, if next week you would just pick a day, are you free that day? Okay. Keep, you know, 10 till 2 p.m. open. And what we would do with our undercover ID, we would make sure we would go well out of the jurisdiction of where that informant lived. And we would rent a hotel room using our undercover ID and our undercover credit cards. And then the day of, we would literally have them under constant surveillance. And I'd be on the phone with them and basically would say, maybe an hour before the meet, be in the Toronto area. And they would be in the Toronto area. And then it would follow up. Okay. Come to the hall at the end. So you don't want to give them too much, because you never know if they're going to try to set you up as well. There's so many floating factors, Murphy, and you would know that as well. It's just, it's a very, very time consuming job and really. It is. It is. And the benefit also is if you, we used to do the same thing, especially when I was in Miami, if you had a day when you were not really, really swamped with paperwork and other deals and so forth, we would go follow our informants just like you're talking about. And it, as long as they're, you always, if you, if you catch them doing something, you got to take care of it. You know, I mean, not take care of them, but you got to take care of business. Absolutely. When you saw them doing what they said they were doing, legitimately and legally, then that always helped to build the integrity. Because if you're in court trying to establish the, the integrity of your, your informant on the witness stand, you know, the prosecutor can put you up there and say, well, did you do this? Did you do that? And what did you see your informant doing? And it just kind of lends credibility to the guy. So, and for our listeners there, that's your, that's your undercover class 101. That might even be bonehead undercover. I'm not sure enough about me. No, no, no, no. I'm not finished. Talk about you yet. Now, Steve is not only, what year did you retire? Oh, 16 and oh, yeah, oh, 2016. Okay. So you've been out eight years, but Steve is also a professor at Mohawk College in Hamilton, which is also in, in Ontario, where he teaches criminal psychology, but he also provides lectures on organized crime at Queens College. And he teaches justice programs at the University of Gelf Humber and Seneca College. Did I get Gelf Humber right? Guelf Humber. Yeah. And Queens University. That's right. Excellent. So it's not like this guy sitting around his butt and, you know, and sipping margaritas out by the pool. In addition to that, he's author of a book called Undercover. He graciously sent me one because he mentioned me a little bit in his book. And you know, that's always good for my ego. But typical Murph's law, you know, you guys hear me talk all the time about how much I read here to, you know, if our guest has a book, I want to read it. I didn't read this much in college and I'm not complaining. I love the stories. But of course, today we got Steve on here and I can't find his book anywhere around here. I've looked through every books I've gone through all my bookshelves behind me. I went to the ones out in the family room. And I know as soon as our recording is over, I'll find it. I'll trip over it somewhere. It's right there in plain sight. That's what I call Murph's law. You're using it as a big coaster. I know you're using it as a coaster for sure. Well, you gave me a great idea before we started recording that. If our washing machine or dryer gets a little bit unbalanced, I'm going to take that book and slide it. You said it's a perfect width for that. It is the perfect do-it-yourself home remedy. You know, it's a quick fix. I have to say, I have to throw this out for your listeners. And this is like in the world of drug work, undercover work, intelligence work. You know, when I started to do this book, it's very similar to the mob. You know, you get vouched if a mobster vouches for another guy, then that other mobster is like, "Okay, I'll take your word for it. You're vouching for this guy." That aspect was no different. And I remember reaching out and speaking with Jay Dobbins and interviewed Jay. And then it was Jay said, "Do you want me to connect you with Lou Volosi?" And you've had Lou on your show and a great guy as well. And interviewed Lou and then Lou said, "You know, Steve Murphy." And it was like, "I didn't know you, but I'm not blowing smoke." But like anybody who's done that work knows about you and Javier and the Escobar file. It's just, it's still incredible. So when Lou said that to me, I was like, seriously, like Steve Murphy, the DA agent, and that's really how it started. So it was an honor to have all of you and many more as part of that. For me, it was like sitting at the front of the biggest roller coaster ride, listening to these stories. It was just awesome. Thank you, brother. And I tell you what, when we finish the interview, I'll go buy 10 copies of your book to help you out for you saying that. That's my payment to you. I was not prompted to say that and that's from the heart and it's genuine. So for all my family members, you know what you're going to get for Christmas this year? A big poster. There's going to be a book called "Undercover." That could be used for many other household purposes. There you go, there you go. And I'm not seeing your praises yet either because Steve is also a writer. He writes articles for various periodicals, including "The Hamilton Spectator." Is that a newspaper? That's a newspaper, that's. And the Metroland Media, now what is that? That's a media company and they have a number of different newspapers underneath sort of that general production banner. All right. And then "Blue Line" magazine. I know that's a law enforcement magazine and also "The Hamilton City" magazine. So when you're not good, Lord, you're busy now in retirement. And you were when you were working on a job, it sounds like. I am. I'm off in the summer from teaching, but during the school year, it's extremely busy and writing has always been a passion. And it's really cool, Murph. You know, been there, done that. We've all been there. I'm very thankful for the law enforcement career I had. I crammed probably 30 years worth into 21 years. What do you want to go back and do it? You know, the men and women that are doing that job today, I bow to them, I thank them because it's probably the toughest era to do this type of work now more than ever. Not just with the technology, the criminal element, various aspects and areas of society have become violent. You have, you know, 3D printed guns. And then you have just the general consensus. Unfortunately, law enforcement, the view of it, has taken a bit of a bruising over the years. And in some regards, I have to say, I can understand why. Every once in a blue moon, a bad apple gets into the barrel. And unfortunately, that stigma and stereotype, everybody gets painted with that same brush. So the men and women that are out there slugging it away in the front line and the trenches, I take my hat off to them. I don't want to take my hat literally. I'm using that as an expression. I didn't do my hair today, Murph. But hey, I can actually say I have more hair than you. And that's pretty bad because I don't have a whole lot left. No, that's a nice set of hair. I would trade that in a heartbeat for a couple of books. And not to make light of what you were saying there, but the DEA Training Academy brings Javier and I to speak to the basic agent trainees a couple of times a year. And you know, you're telling these stories, especially the story about Escobar. They all want to know that. They've all seen Narcos. I tell you what, it just encourages me to keep doing what we're doing because these young guys are really interested. But then we tell them at the end that we broke procedures, policies and rules every day that in Columbia. But we never broke the law and that's the whole point. But the other thing you've got to get across to these guys is in today's environment and today's time, you can't do that anymore. We were ordered not to leave the police base there in Medellin. And we went out every day on operations, but you know, the way I always and everything we did, we wrote it up. You know, we'd send teletypes to Washington. Our bosses knew what was going on. And nobody ever had, you know, an issue with it until, you know, like they're towards the end right for Paula was killed. I think somebody ratted us out to the deputy chief of mission, which is number two guy in the embassy. And he threatened to kick us out of the country. Second time he said there are no more warnings. And that was just about a week or so before Pablo was killed. But it's just funny how things have changed. The funded police movement didn't help us any, but you're absolutely right. You get one or two guys who make bad decisions or go bad. And you know this, Steve, even when Morgan was on the show, one of the things we used to say regularly is nobody hates a bad cop more than a good cop. And I still feel that way today. And if you don't feel that way and you're in law enforcement, you need to go find another profession, another career. Because if you're tempted, get out, get out. You just, it's so devastating what it does to all the good law, law-binding police officers out there whose main goal is just to help people. 100% Murph. Yeah, I can totally relate with that too. Seeing, you know, being eight years out of, out of that work. So much has happened in reality and obviously shown in the media, whether it's a crop cop or excessive use of force that leads to serious bolly armor death that we've seen tragically, it makes me sick. It makes me sick to my stomach. Even though I'm not doing that job anymore, I did do it. You did it with most of your guests that you have on. It's, it just leaves you with a very, a big pit in your stomach when you see that. Because it smears the reputation of the people not only doing it now, but I'm highly offended by these people. It makes me really upset with some of the stuff that's gone on. Like there's just no place for it. And you know what, does it exist in other occupations? Absolutely, but policing is like, I would say if you're, if you're, if you're pushing a police cruiser down the street, you are a driving billboard. Like you, you know, the decals, you are identifiable. And nothing makes newspapers or six o'clock news. Then, then a, you know, a crop cop or a major incident where somebody's gone way over the line. And it's, I just want to tell your viewers that 90, you know, I never worked with anybody that showed any signs of any of those things we, we spoke about. Everybody signs up for the job for the agreement. And it's not to be tacky or cliche. It's true. You want to make a difference. You want to put really bad people behind bars off the street. And talk about the work you've done, Murph, you know, guys like Jay Dobbins, Billy Queenbrop, a good point in the podcast you just had with him that it's 24/7. And you're working most of the time for free. And Billy, I love what Billy said. He says, I was doing it for my country. I'm patriotic and I'm Canadian, but I do the same thing for up here. And the men and women in context, I've made over the years with people in the United States, like yourself and some of the other men and women, a lot that have been on your show. Been awesome. We just have that unique bond, especially in this type of specialized work. Yeah. And you know, and that's a good point to bring up just because we're in different countries, crime doesn't know boundaries. They don't recognize state lines. They don't recognize country lines. You know, you got the Columbians producing cocaine. You got the Mexicans producing all the other crap. The methamphetamine and the fentanyl and all of that comes through there. And plus transporting the cocaine into the United States. Yeah. Weeds still, Mexican growth weed is still an issue. And not only does it bring it here, but they're trucking it right on up to Canada. No, it's a worldwide problem. So we seem to in law enforcement and it seems like we hamstring ourselves somewhat because we want to define boundaries. And I'm not talking about legal boundaries. I'm talking about like city limits and the county borders and our state borders. Am I proponent of a national police force? I don't know. I think it would be so unwieldy. I'm not sure it could be controlled. And I think you might lose the personal touch that you get, especially in small towns where everybody knows the police officers. But man, we're getting off on some tangents here. This is things that we need to plan to talk about. So this is all good stuff. I will say really quickly, I would love to borrow the American's Rico statue because that's got some teeth. And our laws up there. Just to give you a quick thing. And I tell students this from teaching an organized crime or a gang intelligence course. As a former intelligence supervisor, I was part of the criminal intelligence service of Canada. And just in 2020, like four years ago, they released the public report that estimates presently in Canada. There are approximately 2,000 organized criminal groups and gangs operating in this country. There are a lot of reasons why Murph and I don't sugarcoat it. I speak from the heart and I'm just honest, our laws are really lackadaisical. Our version of Rico is the anti-gang legislation criminal organization. It's never fully even been taken for a major test run in our Ontario Court of Justice Riemann, the Supreme Court of Canada. The Rico statue, what it did to the mafia just in the state of New York, back in the '80s and '90s, it got all these high ranking mobsters to flip. And mobsters were sent to jail. That statute that was developed by a lawyer in 1970 and other agencies really used it to their advantage. Well, we had Rico and then we also had the CCE, the continuing criminal enterprise. And man, if you could get those charges and their specific elements that you have to meet to qualify to charge somebody with that, but they carry some serious time. It's a very serious time. So that's all good. I wanted to ask you, have you ever met Patrick O'Donnell? He's a retired sergeant from Milwaukee, Wisconsin Police Department. No, I haven't, Murph. He was a guest here on Episode 77 and Patrick and I have stayed in touch. He has his own podcast called Cops and Writers. He's an avid writer as well. I think he's got some contracts to write some multi-episode books, like three book series and so forth. Oh, very cool. That's somebody I want to introduce you to, because I think you two would probably really hit it off, not only from the law enforcement angle, but also the writers angle. And he's fantastic. Oh, I'd love to. Yeah. He's referred a lot of guests to me and Morgan as well here on Came O'Cryons. You mentioned Billy Queen. And before we got started, we were just talking about Billy. And you said you got a good story. So tell us, tell us what you know about Billy. Yeah, at first, I really enjoyed your interview with Billy. And it was about 15 years ago, I was working in an intelligence agency. And I went on the et la motorcycle biker gang course. And it was the OPP and just for your viewers, listeners, OPP's Ontario Provincial Police. They kind of police the entire province. And then we have municipal and RCMP working every province. So we went up to the headquarters about two hours north of Toronto. And we knew Billy was going to be the featured speaker. And it was a very dark auditorium, no windows. And I was sitting near the back and they pitch black and a big screen comes down. And they showed Billy's 20 minute interview when he was on ABC's 2020. After that, the screen goes up and the room's completely pitched dark. And you're anticipating Billy's going to go out on the stage at the front of the auditorium. I'm not kidding you about five feet from me, pitched dark. Some guy comes in from the back to top of his lungs, screaming some tribal chant. We all did like that. I'm not, I don't get startled easily. But I was like, gee, like did somebody break into this place, you know, and has a gun? Like we didn't know what what the heck was going on. Well, even in your eyes get acclimatized to the dark, I noticed it was a guy in all leather wearing a full patch Mongols patch. And I was like, what the heck is going on here? And he's yell on this tribal chant. It gets on stage and it was Billy Queen. And I'll say a couple of things. I've seen in my policing career in an academic world in general. I have never seen a more crazy and compelling opening. And his presentation was fabulous. But for your listeners, at that time, 15 years ago, Billy, there was a leak somewhere and the Mongols, there was a contract. The Mongols wanted to murder him. Absolutely. He came up to Canada even with that viable threat. There was a leak that he was going to be the week before somewhere in the United States. So he came up to Canada with two armed marshals or deputies. And not only did he do the presentation, Murph, it was a small group of about 20, 25 of us, all intelligence. He actually came out with us and socialized and had a few beers with us. And it was just such a kind, just humble guy and just an incredible undercover journey that he did. So that's always really stayed with me. So I really was sort of living vicariously of the time I met him while I was listening to your podcast. Yeah, he's just a good old country boy from North Carolina. In fact, I wanted to promote what he's doing now. But he said, you know, let's don't. So I didn't. But he's running for sure, if I won't say where. But, you know, all you got to do is look online and you can find it. That's awesome. Yeah. And the thing I like really, I think there's a lot of common sense there. His interview was challenging for me. As far as editing his Wi-Fi, we had some issues with that. And it didn't record both of us at the same time on video. Somewhat. But it still ended up in an excellent interview. So hats off, Billy. I've actually gotten some emails from our listeners about his interview. In fact, I just answered one this morning that they were concerned about his safety. What happened afterwards? And you heard him say he had to go into hiding for a couple of years. They moved into East Texas. I think it was Alpine, Texas, where nobody knew him. And they had the ATF SWAT team was assigned to me full-time. And armed guards everywhere he went to go to court. You know, there were special security measures in place at all the courthouses when he would show up. These are some main bad-ass people. I mean, just can't take any of this lightly. And for your listeners, once again, Billy brought up a great point that you don't do this for extra money because there isn't any. You're doing it because only if select fewer cutouts today. And I never did anything near what you or Billy or Lou Velosi or Jay Dobbens did. But regardless, you're still putting yourself in that risk category. But people think, you know, when the court case is over or the operation finishes, that's it? No, it isn't. Like Jay Dobbens house got firebombed like three or four years after he retired. That's unsolved. So you can speculate who probably did it and was probably the criminal element. And, you know, Joe Pastone, when he finished the Donnie Brasko operation, there was a half million dollar bounty on his head for years and Billy Queen the same. So it just because an operation stops, that risk can linger in it. It's a difference between actual and perceived. When there's an actual threat, that's very volatile. That's a real thing. And that's scary. And right. But the perceived is sometimes just as dangerous, like what you perceive may happen in your mind, even when it's not nothing tangible is actually happening. So, you know, it doesn't end when the court case is over it and the UC plays done. Yeah, you're right. It's I'm kind of smiling here to myself because Lou Velosi just called me. He just popped up on my screen here while we were talking. See, I guess he's a place wired up. He has your place wired up, I think. I wouldn't put a pass to you though. I love catching up like this. It's it's a lot of fun. You and I have communicated back and forth on email or text messages. But it's good to see you again, brother. Glad to have you back on the show. It's a true. I know you're extremely busy and just getting on your schedule. I mean, we had to do the interview in the summer because you just don't have the time any other time of the year. When you were writing some articles, you had contacted me and it was about we talk about cocaine and coming out of Mexico and did it make it to Canada. A lot of people always ask us that. I mentioned to you back to the end that I thought NAFTA, the North America Free Trade Agreement, was one of the worst agreements that was ever agreed to by three countries, Canada, the United States and Mexico, because it was allowing tractor trailers to come out of Mexico that were bound for Canada to go straight through without inspection. And I'm sure there's inspectors in Canada. I don't know how you do that in Canada when they come across the border. But it's not like a 15 minute drive from the Mexico border to the Canadian border. There's thousands of miles that have to be traversed, excuse me, through our country. And the opportunity is there to stop and unload loads of cocaine as well as taking cocaine into Canada. So I've just never been a fan of NAFTA. I do understand that you do need free trade and things like that. So I'm not condemning that. But just to me, it just kind of lends credence to we talk about the war on drug. We've never had a war on drugs. It's what I'm saying when how many and I are speaking to audiences, it's the biggest misnomer that I think I've ever heard come from the government. Because you go back and look, we were going after the biggest manufacturer and distributor of cocaine in the world who at one point were responsible for 80% of the cocaine. And what did the United States send to guys? Yeah, it's not a war. I know. And I couldn't agree with you more, Murph. I stopped actually calling it organized crime a long time ago. It's transnational. And because these groups are all working together. And in my law enforcement career, especially working in intelligence, there's been a couple of big, big files, the one I wrote about that we're going to speak about had tentacles directly to the Sinaloa cartel when El Chapo was their supposed ringleader there. But just a quick side note, just to give you an idea of how connected Mexico and still is, there's a lot of turf wars in Canada fighting for the geographic control of territories in Canada where Mexican cocaine and fentanyl come into. But as a journalist, when El Chapo was extradited to the United States, and I believe it was in Brooklyn, I had exclusive access to his trial. And there was a lot of Canadian connectivity that came out during that trial. You know, if he has a number of different, at that time, a number of different Sinaloa members living and operating in Canada, because you need somebody at the back end. And they were very close with a lot of their criminal groups in Canada. And the Hells Angels were at the top of the list. And part of that court disclosure, the wires and the wiretap evidence, was if even a nickel or a dime went missing, El Chapo was reaching out to not just his men in Canada. But if somebody needed to get whacked, he was reaching out to the Hells Angels, because they were acting as the enforcers in Canada. And this is the Canadian Hells Angels. So whether it's Italian mafia, Asian organized crime, these groups are all in some shape or form connected and working together. They are. And not to change subject to you, but I just want to mention to everybody, your book undercover is available on Amazon. So if you're interested in that, and I'll post a link on the Game of Crime's podcast.com website. And I'm going to get the, but listeners can go to underworldstories.com. That's, that's my official web page as well. Thanks, Murph. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's the least I can do to, you know, thank you for coming on the show here. When I didn't get a chance, when you said some kind words there, thank you as well. It's always great. This is how we talk even when, before the recording button is pushed. So it's, Murph's the real deal. He's a genuine guy, and it's an honor to be back chatting with you again. Brother, it's, there's nothing special about me. I'm just, I've had some special friends, and I'm not talking about the kind of rather short yellow bus either. So, I love it. I've worked out for 38 years. I love the brotherhood and it still astounds my wife that I can meet somebody for the first time. And within 10 minutes, it's like we're old friends. Absolutely. And it's not my personality. It's just the culture of law enforcement between the men and the women of law enforcement. That's the way it is, regardless of the agency. So, so anyway, you had written a four part series, and I'm looking at, is that inside Halton? Is that the name of the organization that you're writing for? Inside Halton. Yeah, I don't write for them now, I write with a couple other places, but that was a, uh, about a year and a half ago, I wrote a four part series, and I have to preface. I wasn't boots on the ground investigator, but I was an intelligence supervisor. It was a drug file and typically up here, and I'm sure it's the same way where we commence as the intelligence support with these big files. If surreptitious cameras need to be installed, we have our intel texts, listening devices, informants, undercover operations. So we were, I was kind of on the periphery. I wasn't a drug investigator, like I said, with boots on the street work in the file, but something that makes me extremely happy. I love being on the other side of the fence now. I'm not going to, I'm not going to pull any punches. Nothing makes me happier than writing about these crime stories. You know, I would never reveal informed information or hold back evidence that could jeopardize a future prosecution of a case. The integrity is still there as a writer, but I do think the public, and this is my viewpoint when I write, I get people like yourself who went on record, you're willing to be quoted in a story and a love. The public does have a right to know about what's happening in their communities, especially when it involves gangsters and the potential for massive amounts of violence and drug infiltration in their communities. What you're saying right there is exactly why Morgan and I started a game of crimes to start with. It's all about promoting law enforcement in the positive light so that we can highlight the bravery, the commitment, the dedication, the duty, the ability to focus on a mission. The willingness to put yourself between innocent people and violent criminals out there and the public needs to know that because it's easy to sit back and get very contemplative and these pundits get and they have their ideas and they love to voice their ideas without any practical experience. It's like when I went through college and I was majoring in criminal justice administration, my favorite professors were the ones who had been law enforcement officers because they'd been out there and done it. The ones that were academics, yeah, they're very smart. I mean, they could tell you about Pavlov's laws and, you know, the pavilion principles and, you know, all the things, but there's just not that practical application. So this is an opportunity, just like you're talking about, you're putting out to the public so they can learn what it takes to be a cop. It's not, first of all, it's not for everybody. The second of all, our people, our culture chooses to become a public servant. You know, a lot of people look at that as a derogatory term. I don't. I look at it as a heroic term. The fact that that men and women are dedicating their work lives to serve their fellow man, to serve the public. There's nothing derogatory about that whatsoever. No, it just so happens. You know, whether it's, and even with firemen and other first responders, EMTs, they go into harm's way regularly as well. So this is not just limited to police officers. I mean, heck, even the trash collectors, you know, you're working around that heavy machinery. And I can't imagine how many of them, how many of them may lose fingers or limbs, just because of the things that accompany that job, the responsibilities that go along with it. So this is a man, I'm pontificating a lot around like one of those pundits right now. Give me a second to have to look up pontificating. I'll be right back. I heard Morgan, you do one time. I'm not sure I used to ride, but it sounded good. Well, you bring up a really good point. I want to just add, Murph, is that, you know, the academic side like, yeah, I went to school and this and that and I'm a professor now, and I'm a very humble guy. I don't have any go to school bone in my body, but I love teaching students the theory, but then I'll say, okay, now we're going to actually do a practical case study, either that I've worked or, you know, I've written and researched about most of them are cases that have worked. And it's just to give them the reality, because I always say never always believe what you read anywhere. You know, you have to substantiate. It's just like informant work in an informant would give you information. And in Canada, we had three different three different types. You can't take what an informant says to you in a hotel room as verbatim, you would go after and that this was not the the legwork part of it was you might have a four hour meeting with an informant, tons of notes. And now you have to go verify. And it was unknown reliability, believed reliable, or confirmed reliable and confirm reliable makes it 100%. Okay, I can take this to the bank. What that person said is the truth. So especially now in our society, whether you're a student or you're entering into a policing or any other type of occupation, you have to do your due diligence. And don't take secondhand rumor gossip in your window and internalize that as a fact, you got to do your homework. Yeah, it's, and you're talking about corroborating what the informants are doing to increase their integrity and credibility in court. So that's, you know, I don't know why I'm telling you that because you teach this. It's been a long time since I had to mess with it and for it. But anyway, when Steve sent me this article, this four part series, I got, it took me a couple weeks to get to it. This, it's a think I'm just causing my age. I'm not as good at multitasking as I used to be. Things are just a little busy with podcast and the speaking and all the other things that we're involved with. But I finally got to it. And I'm leading this thing. And I'm what, you know, it's like, I think when you don't hear the first time Morgan, I used to say, there can't be crime in Canada. Everybody in Canada is so nice. But obviously there is. There is. There is. Nice. But there's crime. And you guys are still nice about it. But this one, this one really got my attention because when we had you on the first time, we talked about an organized crime group and the guys that were getting sworn in in the hotel, that they were right now, they made member. That was the last fall I worked with, with the RCMP. It was just really quickly was a bonafide member of the banana crime family in New York. He was very connected with the mobsters in Toronto, Montreal and Hamilton. And Hamilton is about 45 minutes outside of Toronto. Long story short, the RCMP were able to cultivate him in Canada. It's called a police agent. And what that is, is that person is an elevated form of an informant. And this this guy from the banana crime family was wired up for four years. And I have to, you know, it was, it was a joint operation with the FBI. The RCMP were the lead on that. But it was, it was part of it for a bit of the four year file. And it was, for me, it was, I mean, not that it was a great way to sort of go out of policing on that note because it was, it was a really fun file. And it was their biggest to date with the mob. Well, the thing that still sticks with me is, you know, you see the movies about the godfather and, and what goes on. And when somebody's becoming a made man, you know, they go into this dark room with mahogany furniture and a cigar smoke and might be some alcohol involved. And it's, it's the code of America, you know, they're going to swear somebody in as a made member. But not in Canada, is it? How's that? How'd that go down? Yeah, the ritualist symbolism wasn't there. They, we were able to, to get into a hotel room, because the police agent told a debriefing team, you know, guys are coming up from New York, they're opening the books and they rented a room, wired it up for video and sound. And two guys came, they turned up the TV, very loud, and with some kisses on the cheek. And from this day forward, congratulations, you're now a member of the banana crime family. And even though they didn't put the trigger finger and, you know, they were wearing track suits. Yeah, it was like, it's humorous. But I will say this, Murph, like it elevated our police agent because he had street cred in the mob in Canada and United States. But regardless of how you get inducted into the mob, once you're a made man, like that file took off after because other made mobsters now were opening up even more to him. And you know, he, he, he was running his own FM podcast underneath his shirt. So everything they were telling him, it was, it was, the wire was picking it up. So there was just some unbelievable information and intelligence about the mafia, not just in Canada. And that's how connected the other, very connected to the American, La Closinostra, and the Indragada, collaboration families, very, very entrenched with the United States organized groups. But you just, you know, you go back to the Godfather series, the movie series. And I could just picture these guys in their, in their silk crack suits or whatever they are. And then when it's, when they, they, hey, you're now a member, let's go hit the buffet. It's a quick story. I didn't tell this on the first, the first time with you and Morgan, when they were, they called it the homework phase. This is the RCMP when I say they when, because anybody can say, yeah, I'm close with the mob in Toronto. I'm, oh, now it's like, okay, you have, we have to not only verify it, but we have to verify your authenticity. How connected are you? And before he was even brought into Canada, this is the, the banana member, he had been extradited to Italy. The RCMP, two members met him in a hotel outside in North America. I don't even know where it was because I wasn't there. But I was told this directly by the investigator and a former colleague of mine, not making this up. They plan to meet him in this lobby in this hotel, probably somewhere in Europe. No, obviously nobody knew who these guys were at all. The RCMP or the mob guy, the mob guy is somewhere in the lobby at the bar. The two RCMP investigators walk into the hotel lobby. And you know, there's usually some kind of lounge band playing in a hotel. Yeah. Literally, as soon as their feet touch the hotel room floor, they played the theme from the godfather. You can't make this stuff up. What did they react to it? They kind of just, I won't mention names, but my colleague who was there, they just sort of looked at each other like, are you kidding me? They're like, I'm the godfather? This is just, you can't write this stuff. You can't make it up. So I thought that was, it's such a, it's such a crazy things happen when you're doing these files that you need that levity to you, right? Like, oh, yeah. To keep it light. So I thought that was a hilarious story. Oh, that's very appropriate. Did the bad guys react to the song at all? I don't know about that. But it was, he was dressed like, you know, the tan, he had the three quarter length mink for code on. Like, he kind of, he kind of looked the part. And one of my favorite parts of working that file was you listen to the wiretap. And listening to the wiretaps was like, you know, listening to auditions for a Scorsese movie, because he had the, the thick, gravelly, a Brooklyn accent. And, you know, he, you know, used the mob verbiage. And it was, you felt like you were, you know, sitting on the set of a, a mob film. But it was, it was real life. So it was, it was an honor to be a part, a small part of such a cool big file. Yeah, that was, that was, especially, we had been involved in the podcast business too long. So I still remember Morgan Kacklin over that. And we had a really, really good time with that story. I remember. Yep. So the, so the article you sent me was about an individual. And let me butcher his name here to start with, Succvir Dio. Is that correct? 100%. And now he's an Indian national. Is that right? He got self-Asian. He just set it up really quick. You know, Canada, the Hell's Angels in, in, in my personal professional opinion are one of the most powerful and structured organized groups in the world with chapters worldwide. And they go with the times they evolve. And in Canada, the Hell's Angels morphed in British, British Columbia is on the far west coast. So if you go right on the coast of British Columbia, you go right down, you know, the side of the United States and you're right near, you know, Mexico, Tijuana. So that's one of the main routes where, where drugs is coming up, whether by truck, submarine, drone, you name it. But the Hell's Angels amalgamated and joined with some Asian organized street gangs and South Asian organized street gangs to form a new gang called the Wolfpack Alliance. And Succvir Dio was part of that. So when you think of like these groups, you know, after big operations are taken down, these organized criminal groups are following these cases, whether they're charged or the outside looking in, and they get the, they get the full frank and fair of the disclosure, for the most part, and they change their ways and methods of operating. So the Hell's Angels literally created this, they tapped into this market in BC, which is a massive market for drugs connected to Mexico. And Dio was part of this Wolfpack Alliance. At that time they had, and this is talking about about 10 years ago, Murph. And that's when El Chapo and the Sinaloa cartel were at the height of their game and they were, they were directly connected with El Chapo and his cartel. I love it. It's, it is a little unusual. So when you, when I read the articles, you sent me and did a little research, seeing that the Hell's Angels connected with some Asian gang members, basically, to create this alliance. At first, I thought, that just seems like they're giving up a little bit of their oversight. But then as I read farther read more, I saw that they just use them as like underlings. They use them to go do the dirty business is what it sounded like to me. Is that that sound accurate? Yeah, I think that's a big component of it too. And Murph, like when you look at some of these groups, you know, the red scorpions, independent soldiers, these are street level groups operating in BC. And there's a lot of infighting, even as we speak in British Columbia with the unrest in Mexico has a ripple effect. But there's no doubt in my mind that the Hell's Angels looked at the drug market and went, okay, these very well connected street gangs are connected to Mexico, which is producing, as you said, like 80% up of the drugs coming into the US and Canada. We want a piece of that. So what better way instead? I mean, I don't give credit to these groups, but when you think some of these members, if they plied their intuition, foresight, planning, premeditation to the legitimate world, I think some of them would probably be successful. So instead of bloodshed, let's create a merger and come up with a new gang. And now the Hell's Angels is part of it. And they have a piece of that major drug market in British Columbia that's tied to Mexico. But they're stealing a command, right? Absolutely. Like, you know, they're, they reign supreme over a lot of these criminal groups. They're very close in Canada with traditional organized crime, the Italian mafia. And I'd say that's probably one of the few groups where they are probably operating on the same playing field. But some of the maybe lower echelon street level gangs, you know, kind of like a puppet clubs in the outlaw biker world, like they're like the farm team in hockey to, you know, the big league team or like a firm team in baseball or or whatnot. Hey players, this is the end of part one. As you know, part two comes out tomorrow on the Tuesday. In the meantime, on social media, go and check us out on on X at Game of Crimes and on Facebook and Instagram, a Game of Crimes podcast. Also on Facebook, type in Game of Crimes fan page and join us for some more fun. Our website is Game of Crimes podcast.com. We've got a lot more information there, including all our episodes, the book list, which contains the books written by our guests, Game of Crimes, Merchandise, and a lot more. In the meantime, everybody stay safe. We'll see you tomorrow for part two. [Music] [Music]