Game of Crimes
154: Part 1: Tyler Schwab - From small town kid to fighting against child exploitation and human trafficking
(upbeat music) - Hey gang, welcome back to the next episode of Game of Crimes with Murph in the Morning. You're in the right place to see and hear some of the best true crime content anywhere. This week is episode number 154 with my friend Tyler Schwab. I'll tell you a little bit more about him in a few minutes, but I will tell you this right now, this interview is one of the most moving and emotional interviews I've ever done, so stay tuned. If you're a new visitor to Game of Crimes or whatever regulars, thanks for tuning in. I can't do any of this without you and without your support. None of this would be possible. I truly appreciate you giving me your time. I'll do my best to bring you the best guests I can find and today is a special one. Now I'm working to shorten the introductions here, so let's get right to the housekeeping. Do me a huge favor, go to Apple or Spotify and hit those five stars every week. And on YouTube, go ahead and click on that subscribe button. It's not gonna cost you anything. These small actions only take a quick minute and they really help support the show. Send your comments on Apple, Spotify, YouTube or to our email, which is gameacrimespodcast@gmail.com. Our website is gameacrimespodcast.com. There you'll find all our episodes, our book lists, merch and there's a link to our Patreon channel as well. Now Facebook and Instagram, go to gameacrimespodcast and on X, type in gameacrimes. And also on Facebook, go to gameacrimes fans and join the best private platform on the Facebook network. The group is run by our favorite mafia queens, Sandy Salvato, so it's a great place to go over and have a little fun. And if you're looking for more content, check us out at patreon.com/gameacrimes. You know what, I've got more material there than on the regular podcast. Some serious, some not so serious. So come on over and give it a shot. Now for a quick disclaimer, this is a show about crime. We talk about bad people doing bad things. We talk about bad people doing bad things to good people. I do take these stories seriously, but I think it never hurts to have a little laugh. And what's wrong with having a little chuckle about some of the crazy things criminals do and what the cops have to put up with, right? So having said that, it's time for a section brought back by popular demand and that's the small town police blader. (whistling) (upbeat music) All right, let's get into today's episodes here. We got three stories. The first is coming to you from New Mexico. You're gonna like this one. A naked female motorist led New Mexico cops on a 100 mile an hour chase that ended when she crashed the vehicle and then sought to run away from the officers. After receiving 911 calls about a woman driving recklessly on I-25 and Santa Fe, cops spotted Barbara Ariano, 51 years old behind the wheel of a Toyota RAV4 that was careening across the road. As she drove, Ariano was throwing items from her car, which topped 100 miles an hour before it clipped a truck and crashed, oops. Somehow, Ariano escaped from the vehicle unhurt and unburdened by her clothes. Police dash cam footage shows the naked Ariano running through traffic. Well, I could say so many things about that, but I'm gonna try to be nice. Ariano was subsequently taken to the ground by police who covered her quickly in a blue tarp provided by a passing motorist 'cause nobody wanted to see that. Ariano explained that she had used heroin, took a bunch of pills and drank whiskey just before driving. Well, that's what I do. What do you do? How do you prepare to go out for a drive? As for her lack of garments, Ariano explained that she was hot. During the search of Ariano's vehicles, cops found prescription pill bottles, a muscle relaxant, and the razepam, and anti-anxiety drug. Ariano was charged with drunk driving, battery on a police officer, reckless driving, and fleeing from police. She was released from Santa Fe lockup Monday night after posting bond. You gotta love this. Ariano's rap sheet includes prior arrests for narcotics possession and disorderly conduct. Now, when I read this, she was hot. I'm not sure that I was thinking heat hot, maybe smoking hot, but after seeing her photo, what was I wrong? You know, honestly, I'm surprised that she wasn't using meth as well. Oh, well, our next story. We're going up to Wisconsin. Meet Cody James Romano, the 25 year old Wisconsin resident rang in the new year by performing an exquisite belly flop atop the windshield of, guess what, a police cruiser. For some unknown reason, Romano charged the stationary squad car shortly after midnight. After he reached the vehicle's front end, Romano launched himself into the air. Upon landing, Romano smashed the windshield of the cruiser. Well, which happened to be occupied by a Menasha police department officer? I saw the picture. It caved the top of the roof end even. After a scuffle with cops, Romano was taken into the custody and transported to a local hospital for treatment. He was then booked into the county jail for battery to a law enforcement officer, disorderly conduct and criminal damage to property. Investigators say that Romano had been drinking now. Prior to his ill-conceived execution of the January 1st belly flop in Menasha, a city about 35 miles south of Green Bay. Okay, you know, I've done some stupid things in my life, but this guy's action, they bring a whole new definition to the word, don't they? What in the world was this guy thinking? And our last story for today comes from South Carolina. And speaking of stupid, a South Carolina man was arrested after applying for a loan so that he could purchase meth. Grady Carson, 58 years old, went to a Carolina title loans office in Spartanburg, nice town to secure a loan against his automobile. According to their website, the loan company provides, quote, "fast cash to deal with an unexpected expense." But listen to this, their interest rates began at 96%. Holy cow, 96%. That's even higher than my mortgage rate, not a lot, but it's up there. Okay, and then Fluey told cops that Carson, who was pacing as he filled up paperwork, told her he needed the money to purchase meth. Now, you know, being a criminal is not his best line of work. Since her manager was in another store, the worker faxed a help letter to the second employee who then contacted the police. When officers arrived at the loan business, Carson was handcuffed in the search of his pockets, turned up a glass container with an off-white rock substance inside. Carson stated, quote, "It was cocaine, but he was not going to smoke it because he wanted to do meth." Carson was charged with narcotics possession of booked in the county jail. Well, once again, what's our number one rule here on Game of Crimes, kids? Don't do meth. All right, that finishes up today's small town police blotter. So I hope you like the stories, you know, criminals, they just never cease to amaze us, do they? Now for a show. As I mentioned, today's guest is Tyler Schwab, head of Libertas International. Libertas is L-I-B-E-R-T-A-S, okay? And I want you to remember that. This is a nonprofit organization that helps victims of human trafficking. And he assists the police with building cases to arrest the perverts and low life scumbags who commit these crimes. Previously, we'd had other guests on Game of Crimes who were involved in this line of work, including a lady who was a victim herself. But Tyler's story really struck, really struck a nerve with me. His primary base of operations is in Medellin, Columbia. Now most of you already know, I was stationed in Columbia during the 1990s, and my partner, Javier Pinini, with the DEA case agents, targeting Pablo Escobar on a Medellin cartel. But what some of you may not know is that my wife Connie and I adopted our two daughters in Columbia. Our older daughter, Monica, she's from Bogota, but our younger daughter, Mandy, she's from Medellin. Just so you know, people from Medellin are referred to as Pisces and little kids are referred to as Pisces. Now I'm not saying Mandy would have been a target for the traffickers back then. But let me tell you, she was a beautiful, beautiful baby, and now she's a beautiful young woman. I has a beautiful daughter. So there's a strong possibility that something like this could have happened to her. I gotta tell you, just thinking about it, it just makes me sick to my stomach and it just really ticks me off. Anyone who would have slave another human being, especially children, you're like the lowest of the low in my book. And listen to this, wait till you hear Tyler talk about the 19 month old little girl. Talk about emotional. You'll see, I had to stop the recording for a few minutes. In fact, you may want to grab a tissue before we even get started. And I'm serious about that. I tell you, I'm just so proud of what Tyler and his group are doing. You want me to true life hero, you're about to. He's a living example that we're never too young to help others. And do me this, do me this favor. You gotta go check out their website. I usually don't do this at the beginning of the show, but I'm gonna include all this information at the end as well, but check out their website, libritosinternational.org. That's L-I-B-E-R-T-A-S international.org. These people are doing some fantastic things. You know, I could go on and on about Tyler, but we're here to hear his story from him, not from me. And I want you to hear all the fantastic things they're doing to help mankind. And to do that, you guys need to get in, sit down, shut up, and hold on. I mean, really hold on for this one. Here we go with another special episode of the biggest, baddest, most dangerous game of all, the game of crimes. Hey, everybody, welcome back to Game of Crimes with Murph in the Morning. Got another special guest, you know, I say it every week, but every person that comes on Game of Crimes is special, especially to me. But this one is a little bit unusual. I met this gentleman through texting and emailing and LinkedIn, and I think there's a variety of ways we ended up talking to each other. His name is Tyler Schwab. Now, Tyler contacted me a couple of months ago, and this was during the time when Morgan was leaving the show and I was trying to decide whether to continue with the show and just a lot of things going on in life and after some prayer and thinking about it, you know, decided, yeah, I'm gonna continue doing the show 'cause you folks have been so good to me over the, this is our fourth year now. Holy cow, I'm just still impressed that we're still doing this after three, four years. But fortunately, well, unfortunately, I forgot about Tyler's message, but last week, he sent me another message, and I got to looking at him and I thought, holy cow, there's no way we could not get this guy on. So we reached out, we talked on the phone, we were recording this on a Friday, we talked, I think it was on Wednesday, and he's heading out of town here on Sunday to another country, and he's gracious enough to give up his time today to do this interview, what he's involved with, I think will shock you, but first of all, Tyler, welcome to Game of Crimes, brother. So glad to have you on here. - Thanks, David. It's an honor for me to be chatting with you. You know, someone I look up to so much and I've been a loyal listener to this podcast for a long time and I'm just thrilled and honored and tickled to be a guest on your show. - Well, thank you, you're good for my ego. I'll send you some money in the mail. (laughing) But for all our other listeners, did you hear what he said? He's a listener to Game of Crimes. I mean, here's a guy that's supporting us, I don't know how long you've been listening, but I was really excited to hear that. Now, Tyler started a company called Libertas International and Libertas is a Spanish word for freedom. He's got a really unique story that we're gonna talk about, but this is what really grabbed my attention. This is why this is so special to me today. For those of you that have heard me speaking for years now, you know that my daughters are Colombian, we adopted them. One is from Bogota, one is from Medellin. Well, Tyler is involved in trying to help victims of human trafficking. This is now his, I think it started out as his life passion and is now because it looks like it's gonna be his lifelong career. And you can see he looks pretty young, but he's been going at this for quite a while. And with my youngest daughter being from Medellin, that just really struck a nerve with me. I'm oldest daughters from Bogota, and he's working on all those places plus more. In the past here on Game of Crimes, we haven't done it enough, but when Morgan was here, we got interested in human trafficking. I mean, that's what a horrible crime to commit against, especially juveniles, especially babies. And Tyler told me some stories that might make you tear up, just when you stop and think about what's going on, we'll get to those in a few minutes. But if you remember back on episode 60, we had Natasha Herzeg, who was a victim of human trafficking. She was living in San Jose, California at the time. And I think she was 19 years old when they kidnapped her. And if you haven't heard her story, go back and listen to it. That's episode 60 here on Game of Crimes. And then we had episode 133, we had Ty Holland come on the show. And at that time, Ty was working with Operation Underground Railroad, and you heard some of the things that they were doing. I don't want this to get stale or cold. I know we haven't done a lot here on human trafficking, but we want to do more. And I promise you, all you listeners, that as long as I'm running Game of Crimes with Murphy in the morning, and I don't see anybody else could work unless, you know, their last name is Murphy. But as long as I'm here, we're going to support those that are involved in human trafficking. I will try and bring as many of those folks on so you can learn more, you can learn what you can do, what the signs are, how horrendous this is. I mean, some of the stuff he's getting ready to tell you is probably going to shock you. So now that I've told you a whole story for you, Tyler. What we usually do here, brother, is we start out just about where you grew up, your background, your family dynamics, high school. We're always looking for funny stories. We're always looking for personal stories. So let me shut up for a few minutes and let you take over. Well, I appreciate the introduction, Steve. And yeah, you know, we'll get into the stories later. But I first found, you know, Game of Crimes, actually, it's the Patreon. You know, I watched Narcos and obviously the nonprofit's base is in Medellin, Columbia. And so I saw you and obviously Javier of like two people that have fought evil in Medellin for a long time and just really looking for inspiration on how I can take the lessons that you learned back then in your fight against the Narcos and Pablo Escobar and all these evil people that are working in the city and how to apply it in my modern day fight against these evil people that are living there as well, that are abusing and torturing these Colombian people. And that's why I first found it. And obviously, you know, I just fell in love with the stories and the people. And I feel just, I'm just happy to be talking with you today about that specifically. And I thought you, you mentioned, you know, funny stories growing up and how I grew up. And, and you got me thinking of just stories to share. And it's interesting because I kind of feel weird, like sharing these stories with the former cops and pretty sure a couple of the stuff is illegal. I don't know. You're safe, okay, okay. All right. So I grew up in a place called Star Valley, Wyoming, Star Valley. For anyone that's been to Star Valley, it's like 90 minutes south of Jackson Hall. It's a very small town. It's a bunch of small towns that kind of make up a little valley. You know, when I was growing up, we had no bowling alley. We had no movie theater. We had really nothing to entertain us. Now, you know, I grew up with a good group of friends, but we, we're looking for ways to entertain ourselves. So we had to be fairly creative without, you know, getting into drugs or alcohol and all that kind of stuff. And, and so we did, we, we, we got creative and we had some fun and a couple of stories that I, that I remember, one of them, which was, we used to play a little game. We used to bet as much money as we had, which is only like five or 10 bucks. And we would stack a bunch of pallets on top of a propane tank. And then shoot a BB gun at the propane tank, seeing which one of us could blow it up. And whoever blew it up, got like 20 bucks and, and got to go to Burger King or something. Yeah, we should do that. We should, we should have the woods too. We used to do that in the woods. And one night it was particularly windy. And so some of the flames, some of the sparks carried and thankfully, like nothing happened, but that was our last time blowing up propane tanks. So we evolved. We evolved what we're doing. What are the ideas? Yeah, yeah. It's just, it's, it's, yeah, it was awful, but, you know, we survived. So it's now it's a good story. But when I was growing up, um, jackass and YouTube were just starting to become a thing. And we saw that people were going viral and joining Knoxville and jackass was doing all these cool things. And so we had this idea. We were like, you know, we're going to do, we're going to make a viral video. We're going to, there's a, there's a lake run from Cottonwood Lake and it has like a rope swing on in it. So people, you know, jump off and go into the water. We had this idea. We're going to film my buddy jumping into the lake at night, but we're going to set him on fire. We're going to douse him with gasoline. We're going to shoot narrow at him. We're going to make him blow up. We're going to film the whole thing. He's going to jump in the water. We're going to go viral and it's going to be our jackass moment. And so that is a jackass moment. Yeah. Outside, hindsight, it was a jackass moment. But in the moment, we thought we had just, we had struck goal. We're like, we're going to get all these ads. We're going to go viral. They're going to interview us on, on, on Rosie O'Donnell and all these different things, you know, the, the 90s kids and all these dreams that we had. So we did, we, we, we did, we doused him in gasoline. Like at midnight, we had like one of those fake girls with like the suction cups on the end and we shot him and we shot him. He doused it in flames. He hit him. He, he burst into flames. He ran. He jumped on the rope swing. He dove into the water and we thought we were, we had just gone viral. We had just done this amazing thing that was going to get, make us famous. And, and so we go down, we're celebrating. My buddy is crawling out of the water and he's, you know, he's obviously in pain. He's like, I don't feel so good. Like, look at my arm. Look at my legs. Like they're bleeding. What am I going to do? And we were like, shoot, we may have made a mistake here. So we, we gave him the car. We take him to local hospital. Like 1 a.m, bring him in. And the nurse looked like she had just, you know, go. She was like, Oh my gosh, what happened to his kid? And we're like, well, you know, we were honest. I mean, well, we set him on fire because we wanted to go viral on YouTube. And the nurse just looks at us kind of like the way you're looking at me now. And she's like, I'm going to go take, give me a second. I'm going to make a call, mix a call comes back. And at this point, we were a little depressed because my buddy that was supposed to film this, this thing that we did, this act of jackass. He dropped the camera. So we didn't get any of it filmed. So it's just getting better. But oh, it's just terrible, Steve. And so we're sitting there and we're sitting there with my buddy. And and our parents come in and the cops come in. And we're like, what's going on? What do you guys, what are you guys doing here? And I've never seen my dad so pissed. Never. Yeah, like he looked at me up. He's in his robe for one. Like he's going to tell he got in the middle of the night. He had to work the next morning. He was like, you got to be kidding me. Like the hospital called me and said my son had just set his friend on fire to get on YouTube. He's like, he's like, you're 60 years old, bad. Like you should be grown out of this already. You know, I got to say, that's a statement you don't hear every day. You know, such a best friend. Now I'm like, so it took some, you know, it took skin grafts to like help help us get. He's healed great. He's actually coming with me to the United Nations next week. So we're good. Me and my buddy that we sit on fire. But, you know, the making, the making your own entertainment, the trying to trying to have some fun in a small town. And and during this time, eBay was also a thing. It was it was just starting to come like more of a thing that is right now. And as we had this idea, we're like, you know, we always get tourists in Wyoming that go to Grand Teton, that go to Yellowstone, that are looking to see the bear, see the elks, potentially see Bigfoot. So we're like, well, let's give him Bigfoot. So we found this Sasquatch outfit on eBay, like 35 bucks. And so we we bought it. We bought the we bought the Sasquatch outfit and we took took it to Yellowstone and we just started walking around and and if anyone has been to Yellowstone or Grand Teton, like when someone sees like an animal, like a moose or a bear, like just crowds and crowded people start to gather to take pictures of these animals. And so so with Sasquatch, we had we had an experience too. We had one car stop when when Sasquatch is walking through the woods. We had 20 car stops. We had 60 people that stopped and Sasquatch, she would we would text my buddy, it's like, hey, wave at him or something. There's a Sasquatch wave of the tourists and you know, tourists taking pictures, they can Sasquatch wave at him or we joke with him like, okay, charge at him this time. Like scare him. And so Sasquatch would take off running, you know, full blast, these tourists, free come out a little bit. And then we had some where it's like, well, flip him off and then walk into the woods. And so that's what my buddy in the Sasquatch outfit would do. It's flip him off, walk into the woods. And these tourists are excited. I can't believe Sasquatch just flipped me off. Well, stuff like that, you know, stuff like that to make your own fun in a small town when you have no movie theater or bowling alley. And, you know, thank goodness, like nothing bad, nothing worse. I guess bad, bad stuff happened. Nothing worse ever happened ever happened, which is good. But that's why it's just a small town group, a small town. And that's that's how I made my fun. And what I'm looking for here is we had a special episode with James Murray, everybody knows him as Mur on television in practical jokers. Got it. Have you ever seen that show? Yeah. And that's exactly that's what you guys were doing. Sixteen. Yeah. Yeah, we we in this time, like there wasn't the smartphones, we couldn't catch a lot of it. We had like the handheld camera, but the Yellowstone, the tourists in Yellowstone, we did get that one filmed. And so your viewers, if they're if they think I'm lying or whatever, they can go to YouTube and type in Sasquatch scaring tourists and you'll find you'll find Sasquatch. This is not at all what I was expecting to hear in today's interview. I did a lot of research on you and I didn't find those stories anywhere. That's hilarious. And what makes it even funnier is I've got a picture of you sitting on top of the building at the Colombian Congress, congressional building in Bogota in your suit and tie and you're telling me stories. I'm like, no, that's no way. Yeah, it's definitely you have those moments of like imposter syndrome where it's like I'm sitting in the Congress building, but 15 years ago, setting my body on fire. How did we get to the point B? Well, just, you know, to me, that's just proof that God has a sense of humor. Definitely. Not to get off on me, but I had my first running with the cops when I was 10 years old, trying to break in a house and that's been back when the cops could use common sense to handle situations. Of course, they, they didn't take us to jail. They took us home to our parents, which is worse than going to jail on my book. And then you see how we turn out. So there's, it's like Martin Luther King said, keep up alive. I'm a big believer in that. So just very briefly, what were your punishments from your father for setting your best friend on fire? Oh, you know, I don't remember. Cause when I, when I was that age, I wasn't really a good student. And my dad was very much more concerned about, um, my grades growing up. So I remember that was bad because that happened on a weekend, but on the Monday following, um, that event, my grades would come out. And that's when I knew that I was going to get my attitude. Because my dad was a straight-a student high school. He was a straight-a student in college very much took education very seriously. And in that trade just didn't get passed on to me. Like for me, it was like, as long as I got the C or maybe a B minus, I'm going to go hang out with my friends. I'm going to go to the restaurant. I'm going to go on a trip and high school is even worse. Like as long as I can stay eligible for the basketball team, that's what I was mainly focused on, which to stay eligible on my basketball team, you had to maintain a 2.3 grade point average and you'd only have one D. And so I was like right on that limit. I had like, like a D and then a bunch of C minuses. And for my dad, I just wasn't good enough. And so I knew that the Monday following that event, I was going to get it even worse. And for my punishment for then was I'd get grounded for a week, two weeks. I couldn't go to the gym and play ball with my friends or I had to show the education was a priority for my, for my dad. And so the fire stuff, like, yeah, like, I think I got punished for that. But I remember distinctly that the Monday following that I was going to have to tell my dad why I had an F in history. And it was because I didn't hand in the assignments. I was too lazy to do it. And I was trying to think of a way to tell my dad that I was too lazy to do it. So I got an F without telling him I was too lazy to do it and got an F. So I remember that was my main concern that week in place. It's all a sense of priorities. It's where you are at the moment, right? Yeah, do you have any brothers or sisters? Yeah, I have, I have two brothers and one sister. My brother is he's 32 and he's a school teacher here in, in Wyoming. He teaches English at the, at the high school up there. He's always been a really passionate reader, always learning. He just got his master's degree, I believe. And just constantly learning and, and passing on those, those lessons that he learned through his studies to his students. My sister got married last year. She lives out in Cedar City, Utah. She's a speech pathologist out there. Um, and they're expecting a little baby boy in November of this year. Um, she's, she's by far the favorite. She's a smartest. She's the nicest. She's the only girl. She's by far, the favorite, by far. And then I'll see you there. Right. Now, now zero, zero jealousy. Well, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, I get it. Like she's the nicest one. Her husband is the same. Like her husband is, is such an amazing guy. And so you obviously, like she, she married someone awesome. And so, yeah, just, she's the favorite. And then she, she's earned that spot. She's earned that spot. And then, uh, my youngest brother, he, he's also expecting a little girl. I believe in December, he got married last year as well. He, he graduated with a degree in healthcare administration, but I don't know if he's super passionate about that. And so he's actually looking at med school. He's a medical assistant now in, in, in the town that he lives in, that he still lives in Star Valley. And he, uh, I think he's exploring the medical field and, and looking to get into a medical school next year, what he finishes, like his general education. And right, my, my family's great. My family's always been so supportive of what I do. They've always been super patient with me. Cause at all my siblings, I'm by far the worst one, I think the worst one. And, um, they've just been so supportive. So amazing. And, um, we've, we've gotten very close as we got an older, which is such a blessing. You know, it's funny. One of the things that we promote here on game of crimes is, uh, and I try to teach system, my children and, and now my grandkids is in life. You can choose to be a leader or you can choose to be a follower. And I'm going to say you're being a leader in the loser category there with your brothers and sisters. All right. So I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. I'm pretty sure he hangs up on us. Everybody. You'll know why I just didn't sell that guy. So why not call this guy for? Oh, it's funny. Oh, are you the oldest? Yes, sir. Oh, so well, you know what? I mean, and we're going to get into college here in just a second because, you know, our listeners might be surprised that you went to college, but wait until you hear what he did in college. Cause it's, uh, I'm pretty sure as it wasn't, uh, Ds and Fs, uh, to earn some of the, the things that you did. So you mentioned basketball in high school. Were you, did you play high school basketball? Yeah, you know, and I was, I was a pretty good basketball player. There's my one, my, my passion. You know, I always skip out like on school dances and play ball, play ball with my friends for no look for a gym. Um, I had a cousin who was really good at basketball and so I was always motivated to kind of keep up with him. And, and like in Wyoming, the towns are so small that so much of like the town's pride, the towns getting together comes through the sports teams. And so I played a lot. Um, I played Varsity three years. Um, I made an all star team my last year at Wyoming. Um, I was, yeah, I played with some of the best players in the state. And, and that was fun. And, uh, you know, I always had this dream of, you know, playing college basketballs. I want to make it to the NBA, you know, all those, all those kids that play ball in high school have that dream. And at least it played college. And, uh, you know, I, I had some, I was talking to some colleges in my senior year, but, um, I got an invite to go try out for Dixie State University and, um, in, um, in St. George, and I went there and I went in there and I was like, I'm going to show all these guys, like the small town, small town kid can ball. I was a pretty good shooter. I was, uh, that was my main town. It was like, I could shoot free throws and shoot threes and it wasn't taller fast or anything like that, but I could shoot. And so I was going to show those kids, um, you know, what's up with the small town and I, Steve, I just got my ass handed to me. Like it was, oh man, it was the longest four hours of my life. Cause I played and I came with a lot of confidence, cause you know, you watch his Michael Jordan tapes, you're like, yeah, go in with that dog mentality. You got to go in and you're like, just, just, just go after it and I did, but I just was much less talented than the rest of those kids. Like there were kids that could shoot better than me. They were six, six, six, seven that could run, jump. Uh, they were, they could dribble more than me. They were faster than me. They had better stamina. I just went there and in Wyoming, I was, uh, you know, I was a, I wasn't all starting Wyoming, but on a, uh, on a national scale, I was a nobody. And I got taught that in a very humbling way. You know, we're not playing ball on, on, in the concrete in your backyard. You like an all star, like no one would stop me. And then you just come to find out that you, you can definitely be stopped. And, and you know, I'm glad, like, glad, I'm glad that happened to happen in a hard way. Cause so much of my focus and my, in my time, my resources was, I'm playing some kind of college ball. And when that dream kind of got shut out, it put me on a path to just a better path, a path that was more right for me. But it took me getting dunked on, getting out shot, getting the ball stolen from me, just getting embarrassed at Dixie State University, which I believe it had a different name. Now I believe it's called like Utah Tech College or something. But it was very humbling for me to see just how little of a deal I actually was in basketball and kind of ripped that dream away from me to put me on a better path. But it came, it came in a rough four hours there at, there at that university. Yeah. And, you know, things like that are live, cagey moments. Um, how tall are you in what position did you play? I'm six, two, and I played, I played small forward in Wyoming, which is probably an average height in Wyoming. I think I was a little taller than average in the state, but like on a national scale, like a six, two, that's a guard. Like you had the drill in the fast and you had to shoot me fast and be athletic and strong. And, and I just compared to other kids around the country. I just wasn't that way. My skill set was, was very much good in Wyoming of shooting over people. Trying a national scale. It just, I got exposed to just how, how unprepared I was physically and with my skills for the national scale. That's just reality, you know, that's, and you talk about small town. I grew up in a very small town as well. I try that for football. It sucked and I wrestled for a year, you know, I wasn't winning. I wasn't getting beat up, but I wasn't winning. I ended up becoming a cop in 19. So that was my sport. But now you talked about your grades. How did you have good enough grades to get into college? Well, you know, I went to a school, I think, well, I benefited for one. My dad was an alumni at Utah State University. He has already graduated. And in back then, I don't know if they still have that, but they have like an alumni scholarship to where I think they give essentially like special treatments or they give maybe leniency to students that come from alumni. They want to go there. And so I think that's how I got in. And I think I got in there with like academic probation, but where I got off of academic probation, I really lucked out because I think any school in the country, I would have went to, would have been on academic probation. But, you know, I, I went to college and I spoke fluent Spanish. And so I could test out of Spanish courses. And so you go, you go into an office, you take a test and they, they evaluate you on your, on your Spanish literacy. You're, you're, you're able to speak. And as someone who lived in a foreign country for two years, I spoke really good Spanish. And so I tested out of, of, an undergrad of, of Spanish to where I, I walked into college and I basically had enough credits to where I hadn't a minor in Spanish already. And I didn't just spend it like two and a half hours. And so on a report card, when you, when you test out of those courses on a report card, it looks like you've, you just spent two years in college and got straight A's. And that's where my, my first semester's counted, even though I didn't attend school, and so it got me off of academic probation because it almost tricked the school to be like, well, this kid got terrible grades in high school, but now he's bilingual and he just tested out of, of 16 credits in Spanish. And so let's take him off academic probation. So that was probably the real blessing that got me into college because I happened to speak a second language and test out of a lot of classes to where it looks like I got straight A's, but I actually did it. Yeah. And, and just to back up here, and I apologize for doing this. You're with the Mormon church, right? Yes, sir. And you did your missionary time. Now you, do you do that right out of high school before you went to college? Yeah, you know, you can kind of go anytime between your 18 to 26. And so I knew I wanted to go right after high school. Cause that's what all my family did. And I was very much of like, follow my cousins did my cousins. They'd been to like Venezuela, Russia, Canada, New Hampshire, all these different places. And so my, my mission, they, they sent me to Dominican Republic. And for me, like, I didn't know what the Dominican Republic was, Steve. I had no idea. I thought it was somewhere like in the Middle East or maybe in Africa. And I look on a map and it's like, well, like, like 200 miles, like off the coast of Florida. And I was like, Oh, cool. In Spanish speaking, like my dad, he, he went to Guatemala. So he used to always speak Spanish at me when he was super pissed. And so I was excited to learn a second language as well. And, and so that's, uh, that's where I spent two years of my life was in the Dominican Republic. Did you grow up speaking Spanish in your house? Um, no, uh, my dad, when he was really pissed, like he'd call me like a pendejo, um, or, uh, you know, he'd call me, uh, call me these bad words that they spoke in. I was, I knew he was really pissed off and he was really pissed off. He would call me something like a pendejo in, in public. And I knew it was like, Hey, you're on your last straw. Like do not cross the line. You're very close to crossing. And so, you know, over time, you kind of learn like what those words mean. But I didn't, we didn't speak it in, in my household. No. And what I'm looking for is, as we had a guest on here, Aaron Turner, I mentioned him to you during our pre-call who did his missionary time with the Mormon church down in, uh, Jalisco, Mexico, which is, that's where all the cartels. He's probably told me some stories that just are unbelievable. Like I said on the call, he's probably the smartest human being I've ever met my life. This guy, he wrote the first encryption program for Microsoft. And he didn't finish college. He just, he's just one of those guys. But so you get to, uh, the Dominican Republic or in Santa Domingo or you know, the part of the country. Um, I was stationed in Santa Domingo and then a place called San Juan de la Maguana, which is like right on the border of Haiti and Dominican Republic. Those two places where I spent the majority of my time. That's, did you ever have to go into Haiti? No, yes. We had to go, I had to go into Haiti. They, uh, when I was down there, the first two weeks of my mission, that's when the earthquake happened in 2020, 2010. And, uh, they sent a bunch of us missionaries to Haiti to go unpack, uh, like trucks of rice, cause I think our church is sent like a lot of humanitarian aid after, after the aftermath of that earthquake. And so I was there, I've been to Haiti since, but that was my first time in Haiti. And I was only there for probably a couple of hours, just helping unload packets of rice to different groups that we're looking to just meet basic human needs. I went there in, uh, the late nineties. I think it was, oh, it was right before I went to Columbia. It was, so that would have been 91. And, uh, and since the special agent charged it, he was like my second level boss, uh, who's actually been on the show a piece of red. He's like, listen, I need a favor. I need you to do a TDY down in, in Port of Prince for two weeks. Okay, boss, you got it before the first week was out. They met about me back to the United States. That is the nastiest place I've ever been to life. God bless those people down there. If the world has a butthole, it's in Haiti, I think. Yeah, it's horrible down there. I can't imagine how anybody lives there. My next door neighbor here is Haitian, him and his wife, nicest people in the world. First people to welcome us into our neighborhood here in Orlando, uh, just gregarious fun to hang out with. So it's nothing against the people, but the conditions in Haiti are deplorable. I mean, it's just unfricken believable. So anyway, back to, uh, to the dumb rep there. So you do a total of two years. Is that right? Yes, sir. And you guys have to, and I'm sure girls do this as well, but you, you're pretty self-sufficient, aren't you? You got to support family, but then you're kind of on your own down there, right? Yeah, you know, it's a tough way to learn, but I think it's a, it's a good way for me, especially for me, just to kind of thrust me into adulthood. Cause you're growing up, like I was a nice kid, but I wasn't the nicest kid. Like I, some people would probably see me as some kind of a bully. Like in high school or just arrogant, you know, you're, you're the athlete. You think you're a big deal, especially in a small town and, and, um, no, I, um, my mission specifically, like it just really just helped me understand like what it means to, to be a good human being for one. How people in the real world live, you know, what it means to actually like love your neighbor. Like what does that, what does that mean? Exactly. The Dominican people really have showed me all that. Cause I went down there. I just, you just learned how selfish you are, how ill prepared you are for the real world. And then like your, your, your weaknesses really get exposed to where if you don't have good habits, like I didn't know how to, and it's because of me, I just, I was just lazy growing up. I didn't know how to wash my own clothes. I know how to tie a tie. I sure as hell didn't know how to speak Spanish. And so all these little things that have to do with adulthood, you kind of learn. We like didn't know how to cook, learned how to cook. And cause the church essentially just put you in a place and just say, good luck. And for me, that was, it was, it was good. It was what I needed to learn. It's what I needed to learn Spanish. And I'm thankful for that because I don't, if, if I don't think I would have learned a second language any other way than just having these people put me in a place, trying to buy people that spoke Spanish and said, you either learn the language or you don't eat. And so I ended up learning the language. Wow, I had no idea. They sent it down there and you didn't know the language. Yeah, they put you like through language school, but it's, I mean, it's not much language school. They put you through six weeks of language school, but you know, at that point, there's just too many like life boats where if you get confused, you just start speaking English. Everybody speaks English. Everybody around you speaks English. And so you can practice your Spanish, but you also, you don't have to if no one's looking. And then in this language school, there's people there learning Greek. There's learning, they're learning Russian. They're looking, they're learning Spanish, learning Arabic, Portuguese. And so sometimes when you want to practice, like the person you're practicing with is learning Russian and you're learning Spanish. And so they do their best effort, but it's, it's, there's too many lifeboats out there. And in the language center. And so getting out in the, in the mission field is, is what we call it being out there in your country where you're assigned to serve. That's where you really start to learn the language because you have to eat. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, with DEA, they sent me to language school for six months to learn how to speak Spanish. And here was the problem I learned, but they taught me how to speak proper Spanish. I don't speak proper English. Yeah. So my wife now, we get to Columbia, I could talk to them and to the Colombians and they understood everything I said. But then they answer me in their idiomatic expression and their local lingo. And I'm like, well, that doesn't sound like a damn thing I heard in language school. Yep. Fortunately, we had, you can hire instructors there on the weekends or in the evenings to come over and help you start picking up things like that. And then work with the Columbia National Police. That for me, that's what really helped me to get more acquainted, I guess, with the language. But now why you're in the Dom rep, you have an encounter with a young lady, right? Or you end up in a brothel or something. Yeah. This, I was in a Dominican Republic. I, I would see exploitation a lot. I would see little like young girls that were with mainly European men where I was living in Sano Domingo. And I just, I was like, what are these girls who want these old men? Like, I don't understand. Like, are they gold digging? Are they looking for a husband? Like, what are they looking for? Just putting the blame on them, really. Like, I would see, you know, like 14 year old girls sitting on the laps of like these 60 year old European guys. And they would be kissing and drinking. And I'm just like, I don't know, see how it's going on. But when I was, when I was a missionary, I always see it, but I just kind of brushed it off. I thought that the girls were just looking for, looking for some sort of sustain themselves. And I was totally wrong. Like, I was just totally, I was just totally incorrect in my way of thinking. And I didn't realize that until after, after my mission. So I go home for my mission. I, I, I meet Utah State and I see this flyer for this conference. It's talks about modern day slavery. And I was like, what is that? Like, modern day slavery. Like, I thought Abraham Lincoln, you know, got rid of that. And so I went to the top. Look, you did learn history. Yeah, I learned a little bit of history. I got a D, I didn't get an F, I got a D. That's why I learned something. But yeah, I knew that, you know, slavery had been abolished. At least that's where I thought was happening. And this presenter, I don't even remember this presenter's name. I don't know if they were a professor or an activist or what they were. But I remember like what they were saying, like the impact of there's more modern day slaves today than there's ever been. And this, this person listed off, um, five places that they'd been. Were they an encountered modern day slavery? And he mentioned the Dominican Republic. I'm glad that he did because I don't think if, if he wouldn't have mentioned Dominican Republic, I think I would have been like, Oh, my gosh, that's so sad, but then it moved down with my life. Because he mentioned Dominican Republic, a place I'd love so deeply. And the people that I cared so much about. And he said that there was people being exploited. I just couldn't sit with it. I was like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe that's actually a thing. I have to learn more, I have to learn more, I have to learn more. And so, you know, in the college, I wanted to go back to the Dominican Republic so bad to learn, to go into those brothels and to find out like what exactly was happening. But I was broke. I was so broke. I'm a college kid. Like the only thing you have to your name is like is, you know, $50,000 in debt and a bunch of textbooks that cost too much. And so that's what I did is I sold my textbook. I sold my mattress. I sold my old GameCube so I could pay for a ticket to go back to the Dominican Republic and learn more about what was going on there. Wow. And so you're at Utah State here and you end up getting an associate in science and Utah State, right? Yes, sir. So you haven't gotten to that point yet. You just sold everything and headed back to the dom roof. Yeah, I just, I couldn't focus on anything else. Like I wanted to go back so bad, I couldn't just, I couldn't stop thinking about it. I'd done my research online. You know, like you go to Google and you type in human trafficking, Dominican Republic, but even like back then, like the internet was just, social media was just starting to gain the traction it is. So there was very little information other than it was put out by the US, the partner of state. I knew I wanted to do something to at least know what was going on. And so I knew I had to go back. Wow. That's uh, how did your dad take that? You know, I had to. I think they, my parents were, they've always been supportive of, of what I wanted to do. But I think they, they'd wondered like why I wanted to go back so bad. They wanted me to, you know, focus up on my studies. They wanted me to, to, to just get, move on with life. Cause essentially like, uh, you know, my time at Dominican Republic had ended. And it was time for university. It was time to find my place in, in the world. And, and I just want, I just couldn't do it. Like I, I came back from my mission. And I just, I felt this, you know, as a missionary, like you just serve so much. Like you're always seeing about other people. You're always involved with other people. And when you're, you're thrust back in the real world, you just feel so selfish. Like my needs, my financial aid, my, my dating life, my whatever. And, um, so when I wanted to go back, I think my parents at first were like, why do you want to do this? Like I don't understand why you're kind of going back. And, and I didn't understand either. And like hindsight being 2020, I think they could see it now. You know, kind of my path forward and how this trip back was essential for my, my, my way forward. But at the time, I think all of us, including myself were just like, why do I, why can't I move on? Why is this new piece of information so vital to me? Why can't I just set it aside? Do my thing for 10 years and then revisit this when I'm in my mid 30s or early 40s. Right. And so when you got down there, I think this is when you went to a brothel. And you actually paid a young girl just to talk to you and just tell you what's going on down there. Right. Yeah. So I went into this brothel because that's where I learned that people were being exploited. And I was greeted by a pimp. And I just knew I just want to talk to somebody. And, um, so I found, I saw this little girl. She'd made 13, 14 years old. And I was like, her, I want to, I want to talk to her. Talking to this pimp. And this pimp, he was like, oh, great. Like, well, she's, she's 20 bucks an hour. You can do every one day, you're in a back room. And I wasn't like undercover anything. I was like, well, hold up. Like, I'm not looking to do anything to her. I just want to talk to her. I just want to buy her dinner. And this guy just turned cold. He was like, well, why? Why wouldn't you want to do anything to her? Like, what's your deal? Like are you, are you DEA? Are you FBI? Are you Dominican police? Like, what are you doing here? Like, I'll kill you if you say anything. And I was like, bro, like, hold up. Like, how much you said you said you were 20 bucks an hour? And he was like, yeah. And he was like, I'll give you, I'll give you 35 dollars. I'll buy her dinner and I'll only talk to her for 35 minutes. And he was like, oh, okay, great. Took the money and moved on. And that was my first kind of just like the sick feeling that I had of just like, this girl is just a commodity for this guy. Like, he took my 35 bucks. It totally brought him down where he was super anxious about who I was. And the second I paid him, he was like, oh, okay. Yeah, I do whatever you want. The money spoke to this person. And so I was seeing this next just girl. And I bought some nachos or something and some diet cokes or some cokes or something. And this little girl 14 year old, she's just shaking looking at me. And I knew that she was scared of me. And so I wanted to kind of put her at each right away. I was like, I just paid for your time. I'm not going to do anything to you. Let's just talk. I just wanted to find out essentially what the hell you're doing in here. And when I told her I wasn't going to do anything to her, you would have thought I just told her that she just won 100 bucks. Like she was just like, oh, thank God. Like, okay, well, what do you want to talk about? And we just started eating, just started eating this food. And I asked her, I was like, well, how did you end up in this place? And so she told me. She was like, well, I'll tell you what happened is my family is dirt poor. And we're very Catholic. There's been days where I haven't eaten, where I've got out and looked in the garbage for food. I'm just looking to sustain my family. We're just so poor. And one day this person came to my house and was like, hey, we're hiring at this club. We're looking for waitresses. They're young. They're pretty. They can bring in some clients. And your daughter is like a great candidate for this job. And so she'll come with me in a different part of the city. We'll provide her housing. We'll provide her food. And she can send money back to you so that she can help sustain your family. You guys won't be poor anymore. And these poor parents, like they're just so desperate that they think this person is assigned from God. They're like, oh, thank goodness. Like someone that finally came to our rescue and is coming to help us. And so they send their daughter with them. The daughter shows up and they're like, well, we may have told you it was a waitering job. It's not. You're actually going to have to sleep with clients for money. And we're going to take 85% of what you make. You can send money back to your family, but you can't tell what you're doing or it will kill you. And we'll go get your little sister who is eight or nine years old. You have a debt you have to pay. And we're going to take your documents so you can't escape. And we have police paid off. And so you can't go to police. And this is your life now. And so there's your first client. And she was telling me this was her second day in the club. And she was her second or third day in the club. I don't remember exactly which day it was, but she thought it was going to be her first client. Because her first client, he asked for something that she wasn't familiar with. Because she was so Catholic. The guy asked for anal sex. And she was like, I don't know what that is. And so their traffickers, what they did to her was they took her into because she was so Catholic. She was so religious that she had no concept of what that was. Their traffickers took her in her room, made her watch Pornhub for two days. Anal sex porn and then come back like, well, now you know what to expect when a client asks for that. And so she thought I was going to be that person. And I was just like, she told me this whole story and how she's trapped there. She has his death. She can't pay. And that she's under threat of violence if they'll go get her little sister. And so she was like, that's how I ended up in that spot. And at that moment, my heart was first off, I felt so guilty because all those little girls that I saw when I was a missionary and I put the blame on them. I said, I came to realize that those girls had zero choice of who they were with that night. They had zero choice of what they did that night. And the money that they made went right back to the trafficker. And then two, I was so heartbroken for this person sitting right in front of me. Because I read for months about human trafficking. I read all these stats. I listened to survivor stories. And for the first time in my life, I had a real victim two feet in front of me, but I could not help. And I was listening to her story of this just hell on earth. I just felt so helpless and my heart just broke. And I was like, I can't believe this is actually happening in 2012. It is, it's, oh, it is heartbreaking. And I'll bet you did feel helpless. So how long are you down there on that trip? And then where did you go from there? It's down there for about two or three weeks. And like her story, like I'd heard it all throughout the country. I spent a couple of weeks down there talking to people that were victimized by this crime. Well, never forget the first girl I met because I was the first growing. I met, you know, I met Haitian immigrants that were being exploited. I met, you know, boys on the street that were forced to beg. I met people from Venezuela as the crisis was just kind of hitting its peak. They were leaving Venezuela that had come to Dominican Republic looking for a new opportunity that couldn't leave now because they're being exploited in these clubs. And I was just so shook, you know, just so shook of all this. I just wanted to help so bad. And I just, I couldn't because I didn't have the education, I didn't have anything. I just had the desire. And so I made the decision in my head. I was like, you know what? I'm going to work my ass off in school and just make a lot of money and make some, make some kind of impact and just get a lot of money. And then when I'm in my 40s or 50s, I'm going to go back to this and start donating or getting involved. I had my whole plan, you know, kind of figured out. And all my whole plan, you know, in a span of like 12 hours, I'll flip down its head because I was flying back to Salt Lake when I was in the Delta Lounge in Atlanta. And there's this guy that was there and he saw my, my, my Dominican shirt. And for whatever reason, this guy, he changed my life in the kind of the worst way. Because he got close to me and he, you know, he's a strange duck, you know, who talks to a stranger in the Delta Lounge? But he was like, Hey, I saw your shirt like, you know, you went to Dominican Republic. And I was like, Oh, yeah. I was in the Dominican Republic and I had some time down there. And I was trying to use some humor to kind of make myself feel better, I think. And I was like, yeah, I was visiting, you know, some of the clubs down there and getting to know the scene, just trying to make myself tumor myself and to come into a, to grip with what I had seen. And for whatever reason, when I, when I said to this guy, like, I got his confidence and he was like, Oh man, like Dominican Republic is so great. Like he's like, I work at a hospital here in Atlanta. I can leave my job at five beyond a plan by six 30 being Dominican Republic by nine. And then essentially abuse kids all weekend and then be back in my job before nine am on Monday. And I just sat there like this. I was just like, just shell shocked. I stood up and left. I walked out. I had to go for a walk, put my headphones, trying to, you know, kind of listen to my way out of what I was feeling. So I was so pissed off. And I was like, I can't believe I just met one of these disgusting assholes that travel overseas and abuse kids. I was like, if this guy, I put into it like a context, this little girl that I met in this brothel, if she's being exploited right now and this guy, this person, this creepy guy in Atlanta is traveling to the Dominican Republic or anywhere else in the world right now to abuse kids. I can't wait 20 years to get involved. I have to do it now. I can't contribute much now, but I know I can contribute something. And in 20 years, this guy still might be doing this. This little girl might be dead. I don't know, but I knew that I couldn't wait any longer to get involved. And so that's where I started my journey of anti-human trafficking. Unbelievable. So you get back to Wyoming and did you go back into college? I guess I'm trying to stumble across question here. Yeah. Yeah, I went back to college. I ended up transferring to school. I went to a place called BYU-Idaho out in Rexburg because I have this kind of like wonky system there. It's wonky, but actually it worked really well for me where you can kind of pick your own semester. You don't, you have to fall into like the spring or fall. They have four semesters a year. You can pick two to attend school. And for me, that worked really well because I could go to school as a full-time student, but also take some time out to invest in the non-profit, to do things with the non-profit, to try to find out how to help. And so I ended up going to school at BYU-Idaho and got a degree in healthcare administration, while also like setting up my non-profit because the non-profit was growing. Like I wanted to, I knew I wanted to support people in the Dominican Republic. But now I get these phone calls. Like I got a phone call from a guy in Guatemala who had just helped a girl that had been exploited by the MS-13 gang. They wanted to know if we could get involved and help this girl heal from what had happened. And I was like, well, yeah, like, yeah, I've never been in Guatemala. It's flat out in Guatemala. Let's go check it out. And so I go to Guatemala and see how we could expand there. I go to Bogota and see how we could expand there. And so the non-profit was getting a lot of requests of help. And the transferring to BYU-Idaho allowed me to kind of pick my own semesters. It worked for me where I could go to school. I could also work, save money for my next semester, and also invest my time and my resources into this non-profit that became my little baby. So you founded Georgia International in 2013. How old were you? 23. 23 years old. Man. The reason I'm smiling is you just went up a few steps in my eyes. I don't see you shooting a bull in there. It's somebody setting them on fire anymore. Thanks, Steve. So you get through your degrees come out in health care administration, then you end up going to the University of Wyoming. What was going on there? Yeah, the University of Wyoming. That's where I think my priorities really got, it collided. I love Wyoming. I love the University of Wyoming. But I end up dropping out of the University of Wyoming because the work that was needed in my non-profit and the demands on my studies for my MBA just couldn't coexist in the same space. So I had to make a choice. And sometimes in the past, I questioned that choice of giving up my MBA to go and pursue this full time. But looking back, I have no regrets. I'm looking to finish my MBA. Maybe a little better situation for me. We can do it online at your own pace. And I don't want to give up on that education that I started. But that was my first real choice of like, you have to choose between two good things. Because they're both good. My studies and my passion of anti-human trafficking. At that time, they couldn't exist in the same space. For not what University of Wyoming was demanding from my time. It was demanding a lot. It was demanding almost like a full-time job. It was demanding that I get essentially nothing but A's and a few B's, which I've never been that kind of student, which is hard. Like I always, it's maybe bad to say, but I've always just done the minimum of where I can get the education I'm looking for. And then to develop myself in other areas. But I've never been a student that's going to get straight A's across the board. I don't know if my attention span is not that great or just don't see the need for it or whatever. And I'm not a big believer in homework. I'm like, if you can't teach, all you can teach in the hour, a lot of it to you, why give homework? So it collided with my studies and I don't regret what I did. Like it allowed me to be a growing nonprofit and to find my forever home in Medellin, Colombia. I don't know if that would have happened if I hadn't left the university. And since I've expanded my education, I'm still pursuing my MBA little by little, so I can finish where I started. But I got some additional education in anti-human trafficking from the University of Vanguard. Trying to just develop me as a human trafficking professional. But the University of Wyoming experience, that's where really the choice between two good things happened and I had to make a choice for me. Now, how do you find out about Vanguard University? And is that something that's specialized in human trafficking? Yeah, the lady that runs it, her name is Sandra Morgan. And she's a renowned expert of human trafficking across the world. She's lived in a number of places. She teaches now students that want to get involved in advocacy. And I think as the world grows more aware of human trafficking, I think people are looking to kind of zero in on the right education to help them propel professionals into that career. But I actually found out during the pandemic, I was looking for something to fill my time because travel had been shut down. And I'd heard about this university forever because I subscribed to their podcast, the anti-human trafficking podcast. And they had mentioned this certificate, this degree they have, it's a year-long process. And I decided to sign up and to do it and to connect with other human trafficking professionals. And just met some really brilliant minds, like some former law enforcement officials that investigate human trafficking in Denver, in LA, in Salt Lake, in Washington, some really good aftercare professionals that helped me as we looked to get these survivors on a path of healing. Just a really good program that I found via the pandemic. And so it gave me just a chance to better myself. Which I'm sure a lot of people did, like when the pandemic hit, is how do you fill your time in a way that you can better yourself for the future? Yeah, you start a podcast. That's right. Well, you try anyway. And how long did you spend at Vanguard? I'm just curious. I didn't know that there were classes out there like that. Yeah, it's been a year at Vanguard. It's a year-long program. And that was, it's funny because I bring up my grades. That was the only education where it ever got straight days. And it was, I just made the decision during the pandemic. Because it obviously wasn't traveling. So it wasn't a huge demand on my time. And I was like, you know, I paid for this program. This is what my calling is if you want to call it that. I'm going to get straight into this program. I'm going to do everything I can to make sure I get a 4.0 at the end of this program. And my first test came back. It was a human trafficking ethics class. And I did not do well on the test. I did not do well. And I, you know, I talked to my professor of why not. She helped me to grasp the reading material that I was reading to apply some theories from different sources. I didn't understand in my limited view of human trafficking in Latin America. But she really helped me end up passing the class with an A. Because I've set this goal for myself. I'm getting, you know, a 4.0. And right off the bat, I get a bad score of my test. And I'm, you know, not bad, but bad for the standard that I was setting for myself. And I was like, I just set this goal for myself. How am I going to fail already? And so I really just put myself into it to try to get that 4.0. And I did, you know, thank goodness. I got a 4.0 of Vanguard. And since then, I've learned about other programs like Vanguard. There's some at like University of Missouri. There's some out in Vanderbilt. There's some at Pacific University that are teaching students how to be better human trafficking professionals. I think actually the University of Utah as well just opened up like a human trafficking clinic where victims of human trafficking can go and receive free legal services. So I think the world is evolving to better meet the needs of that population as the light shines brighter on this crime. Whether you call it a passion or a calling or I think there's a lot of people in life that never experience that, that they kind of stumble through life and just, you know, job is something to put money in the bank. So you can have a house and food, a car and things like that. But when you find a passion, man, that there's an old thing. You find a job you like, you'll never work a day in your life. That's the way I felt about law enforcement. I did it for 38 years and when I retired I wasn't happy about it. And the fact that you found that at 23 years old, I'm just, I'm impressed that you started a nonprofit at 23 years old just to be quite honest with you. I'm just ready to get in some stories here. But I want to ask you before we do, did you ever get married? No sir, no, I'm still single. Yeah. No kids. No kids. We, our team likes to joke that I have a lot of daughters across the world but I have no biological kids. Yeah, but you got them for the right reason. A lot of people could sit back and say nasty things about that. But I don't think that's what we're dealing with here with at all. Yeah. Hey players, this is the end of part one. As you know, part two comes out tomorrow on the Tuesday. In the meantime, on social media, go and check us out on, on X at Game of Crimes and on Facebook and Instagram, a Game of Crimes podcast. Also on Facebook, type in Game of Crimes fan page and join us for some more fun. Our website is Game of Crimes podcast.com. We've got a lot more information there, including all our episodes. The book list, which contains the books written by our guests, Game of Crimes merchandise and a lot more. In the meantime, everybody stay safe. We'll see you tomorrow for part two. [Music] [BLANK_AUDIO]