- What could I tie with size 16 and 18 Keel Hooks?
- When working the same pool, should the nymph or streamer angler cover the pool first?
- Where should you park when you see a stretch of unposted land?
- A listener relates a fun story of his first carp on the fly
- What would make me choose the more expensive textured Pro fly line over the Smooth version?
- What is your rod, leader, and fly setup when fishing a small stream?
- Is there a difference between a dubbing loop and the split thread technique?
- Do Recons and Clearwaters go through the same process of improvements that Helios rods do?
- I saw a lot of bugs but no trout rising. Do you think they were overwhelmed by too much food?
- If trout in the East don't eat adult stoneflies much, why does the Chubby Chernobyl work so well?
- I find sunglasses in the evening a hindrance. What should I do to protect my eyes after the sun goes down?
The Orvis Fly-Fishing Podcast
What Trout Hear and Smell, with Jason Randall
A couple months ago I did a podcast with Jason Randall [36:39] on trout vision, and it was so popular that I asked him to come back on the podcast to do one on a trout's sense of smell and hearing. Can trout hear your metal studs on the bottom when you wade, or the tip of your wading staff? Can they hear you talking? Can they smell your flies, and does it make sense to add scents to your fly? Can they smell hatches coming? I explore these and other topics with one of our foremost experts on what trout perceive in their environment. In the Fly Box this week, we have a great assortment of questions and tips from listeners, including:
-Hi, and welcome to the Orbis Fly Fishing Podcast. This is your host Tom Rosenbauer, and my guest this week is Jason Randall. Now, Jason and I did a podcast a couple months ago about trout vision, and that one was so popular that we decided to do one on trout sense of smell, and their sense of hearing, and their sense of vibrations, I guess you would call it. Jason is someone who has studied a lot of the scientific literature. He's a lifelong fly angler and educator, and really knows this stuff as far as the senses of trout are concerned, so he's always authoritative and always fun, and I get a lot of questions about how much can trout here, can trout smell, should I put scent on my flies, and so on. So we're going to talk about all those topics, and I think he'll enjoy it. I know I enjoyed talking to him. Now before we do the fly box, if you want to go fishing with me, how about going to Chile, Patagonian Chile? I have a trip at Magic Waters Lodge, February 8th through 15th, 2025, still time to sign up for this one. There's still a few spaces left, I believe, and as I speak, anyways, there's a few spaces left, and this is perhaps my favorite place in the world to go fishing. The diversity of fishing there is everything from spring creeks down in the pompous, to little tiny mountain streams up in the rainforest, to bigger rivers that you can float in a raft, to lakes where you can have giant brown trout chasing dragon flies. It's just an amazing trip, and I love the people there. I love the guides and love the country. My wife's going along with me, my wife Robin's going with me, and she doesn't even fish, and she just loves it. She loves going bird watching, and hiking, and looking at glaciers, and things like that, so if you are planning on a trip and you have a non-fishing spouse, this is one of the best trips I think you can make, where both of you will be happy. So anyway, I hope you can join me there. If you're interested, it's listed on the Orvis website under Chile, or you can call Orvis Travel and tell me you're interested in hearing more details. And now the fly box. So the fly box is where you ask questions or pass a tip along, and I try to help you answer your questions. And this is, I think, you know, I think this is what makes this podcast is you, your questions and your interactions, and I want to thank everyone for the great questions. It really gives some variety to the podcast, and I'm happy to answer any question I can. So keep them coming, either email or a voice file, both of which you can attach to your email, and you can send me an email at podcast@orvis.com. I read them all, I don't answer them all, but I do read them all. Anyway, the first question in the fly box this week is from Evan in Connecticut. I have a question about keel hooks. I recently sorted through some old old materials I got from a friend, and inside there are about 200 must-add keel hooks. I understand how I could use a size 10 or 12 keel hook for small streamers, but some of these hooks are size 16 and 18, with two short of a shank to tie a decent streamer on. My question is, are there specific nymph or dry patterns I could tie with these hooks? Is there any advantage using these hooks for nymphs or dries over a standard hook? I assume they would be fine for any standard nymphs, but I'm curious why someone would choose these hooks over another in these smaller sizes. Evan, I'm not sure, I'm actually not sure, because I didn't realize keel hooks were made that small. They were quite popular, they were developed by a guy named Dick Pope in Michigan, who developed them for bass bugs mainly, bass streamers, so that you could slide them through weeds without the chance of getting hung up, and they worked pretty well there. As far as the small sizes are concerned, the only dry fly pattern I know that could be tied on there is an old Gary LaFontaine pattern called the dancing caddis, which could be tied on a keel hook, it was upside down caddis fly where the hook rides up, and that would allow it to really skitter across the water without the hookpoint digging into the surface film which made skating or skittering a caddis easier. That fly, you could tie standard nymphs on them, stone fly nymphs, I think most people these days, if they want something that's going to be more realist have gone to a jig hook, but you could certainly use a keel hook and just wrap some non-toxic wire in the front half of it to get the effect of a jig hook on a nymph without having to use a slotted bead or anything, so you could try that. But I'm not sure why they made them that small, I don't think I'd ever use them. Hi Tom, hi, my name is Kai and I'm 12 years old, I live in Nampa, Idaho, which is close to Boise, and I have a question, so I went fly fishing recently and spin fish a little bit, but while I was fly fishing, I noticed that there's a lot of bugs in the water, but I didn't see any fish rise and eat the bugs, they're mainly caddis flies, I saw a trico or two, and may flies, and maybe a beetle here and there, and the thing I was thinking about were the fish overwhelmed on how many bugs there were or on how many fishermen there were constantly casting into the water. Thanks for answering my question, I think it's for all you do, bye. So Kai, first of all, you know, if you fish enough, you're going to see that. There are times when trout just don't respond to an insect hatch, and we don't always know why, we have our theories, but we don't always know why, but sometimes the water can have quite a few flies on it with no fish rising, and so there's a number of possibilities. One is that there's no fish there, that's probably not the case. Another thing is that as you said, perhaps all those anglers in the water had spooked all the fish so they were reluctant to rise to those insects, but you should always double check to make sure that the flies that you see in the air are also on the water. This in particular can be very tricky because they form migration flights, and they can they'll fly for miles and never hit the water. They live out of the water for about a month, and they don't, when they're doing these migration flights, they generally don't hit the water, they're just going upstream, and then they're going to stop and go back to the bushes and migrate again the next night and they keep migrating upstream. So if they were truly on the water, and not just in the air, then who knows why the fish weren't taking them, I doubt if the fish were overwhelmed. I don't think they ever get overwhelmed by a hatch or too many bugs on the water. Usually when there's a lot of bugs on the water, they're going to be feeding on them because there's abundant food available. So I don't think they were overwhelmed. They sometimes get sated, you know, and if it's a big Mayfly, and the fish have been eating it for hours, they sometimes will get full, and they will not feed as eagerly as they did at the beginning of the hatch, but I don't think they would ever get overwhelmed by a hatch, so I don't think that was the case. Here's an email from Kevin from Bozeman. I was fishing the Gallatin River and two of the rainbows I landed had very large orangish red markings, pictures and clothes. I've never seen rainbows like this in the river. What would cause this? Possibly something they were eating. My second question is about fishing with my son, who tends to fish streamers while I fish nymphs, when the fish aren't rising. Is it better to let him fish the holes first, or should I fish them first? Not sure which method spooks the fish less. So regarding your first question, Kevin, you know, color in trout is not a very good indication of anything at all, you know, a whole bunch of trout in the same pool, a whole bunch of wild trout in the same pool can have widely different coloration patterns, and some of it's probably genetics, some of it's probably diet, you know, if they eat a lot of crustaceans like scuds or sow bugs or crayfish, they do tend to have brighter colors. So it could be diet or genetics, I don't know which. I did notice that one of the fish in your picture had a little bit of a orangish marking on the lower jaw, which indicates that it was a hybrid rainbow cutthroat. The other one I couldn't see, but you know, I don't really know, and I don't think even a biologist will tell you why those fish had such bright orange red markings on their sides. Pretty fish though. Regarding your second question, in general, I think that that streamers disturb the water more because you're actively casting over a lot of current lanes, and you're stripping it through the water, and sometimes it excites the fish and gets them to chase the fly, and then they chase it. And while they're chasing it, they see you, and then they spook. I've seen this happen. So I would say it's probably best to fish a hole with a nymph first. You're going to be a little bit more subtle and a little bit more selective as to where you throw your fly. And in general, those fish you're going to chase a streamer are kind of a small part of the population that are going to be more ambush feeders than drift feeders, and you're going to pull those fish out with the streamer, and you want to cover the whole pool. But I would say if I were fishing with someone else and we're both going to fish the same pool, I would say the nymph angler should go first, and then the streamer angler. Here's an email from Chris from North Carolina. I have a question on a topic I've never heard anyone ask about. Where do you park when you see an attractive section of not posted stream? My go-to places other than obvious pullouts are the wide places in front of state bridges and occasionally a rural cemetery. Do other readers have suggestions? I'd also like to echo your suggestion of alternate waters and fish. Here in the Piedmont of North Carolina, I have been fishing small streams less than 15 feet across since the start of the pandemic and have never seen another angler of any sort on many of them. I've caught lots of bluegill, crappie, shiners, and occasional bass. There are many relaxing, pretty spots, not far from population centers. Well thank you Chris for that email and regarding your suggestion, yeah, you know, warm water anglers, people who are targeting bass or crappie or panfish, whatever, generally tend to fish from boats or they fish from shore and not many of them will fish a stream and cover a lot of water in a stream. So those kind of warm water streams generally don't give fish much and I'm glad you found yourself some places with solitude not too far from civilization. It's a great idea. Regarding your first question, I think you've picked the good ones. You know, it's more important where don't you park. I mean if it's a wide pull out like a truck turnaround or here in the north, a snow plow turnaround, generally those are good places to park near state bridges if there's a wide enough area. It's a good place, yep, near cemeteries, rural cemeteries is a good place. The other thing is, the thing is you want to be careful where not to park. You know, the obvious place not to park is in front of a farm road where the farmer might need to get his or her tractor into a field or a combine or some other machinery. So you want to be careful if you do park near a gate to a field that you park well away from the entrance to that so they get their farm machinery in. And I know that states have various rules on how far from the traveled part of the road you need to be and you probably should look that up in your state driver's manual, I'm not sure, but in general, you know, if it's if it's not posted and there's a wide enough pull off, I'll use it. And the other thing is, the other thing is sometimes if you're in particularly if you're in farm country, you can often park in in farmyards, farmers are generally pretty receptive to anglers, working farmers anyways, some of the some of the big industrial farms, not so much, but working family farms, they're generally receptive in, you know, want to stop at the farmhouse and maybe you can park in the barnyard or, you know, somewhere in one of their fields, it's often good to get permission from a local landowner. But other than that, I think you I think you pick the right places. Let's do another email. This one is from Todd in Dallas, Texas. Early this morning before the heat set in, I decided to head out for some bass fishing here at Lake Texacoma in North Texas. On the way to my spot, I was listening to the Orvis podcast talking about catching carp in Central Park of New York City on the fly. I had heard of carp fishing on the fly, but honestly, knew very little about it. It was a fascinating way to pass the time as I drove to the water, but I was going to target bass today. So I brought my six-way clear water rod to box a closet, minnows, woolly buggers, and poppers. The first five minutes out, I get a strike, but I immediately knew it wasn't a bass. It was big and fought differently. That's about the best I can describe it. I had to play this fish quite a bit using the six-way. Once it got close, I was able to determine that it was in fact a carp. I felt like I was slightly undergunned, but managed to finally get it in. It took a closer. I kind of laughed after getting the hook out and saying it free. It was literally less than 10 minutes after hearing you and your guests talk about how challenging carp on the fly can be. In here I am just a few minutes later catching my first without even trying. Or even knowing what I'm doing for that matter. Beginners luck, I guess. I fish for another hour or so in that area and even started sight-fishing several carp I saw cruising without any further success. Still, it was a thrill and can now see why so many people are targeting this fish. Looks like I'll be heading back down to that same spot again soon. I just thought it was a fun story to share. Thank you for the educational and entertaining content you provide. I truly look forward to every episode as they come out, which by the way, can you do a podcast about monster-sized brown trout before my trip to Arkansas this October? I figure if listening to this podcast worked for carp, it might just work for browns. Just throwing it out there. Well, Todd, I'll have to think about that and you keep trying on those carp. They are challenging and a small closer might be a good idea for carp. I would try some other things. If you don't have any specific carp flies, maybe try some. If you have any bonefish flies, smaller bonefish flies, you might want to try those I've caught lots of carp on bonefish flies like crazy Charlie and spawning shrimp and things like that. They're generally smaller, lightly weighted flies or even nymphs, even trout nymphs, large trout nymphs, we'll catch them. Good luck and hope you get some carp on purpose. Calling from Boston. I met you last week at the test cast event at Orvis Wellesley and just wanted to thank you for a great presentation, interactive discussion and I did have one follow-up question. But one to say, the 12 steps for trout presentation was really thorough and informative. I appreciated your answer at the end about environmental conservation. I've got two kids, I want to see them out on rivers being able to catch trout in the future and some of the specifics you talked about, what we have the power to change, regulating pesticides and protecting some of these rivers and fish for future generations. I think it's really important. I think environmental conservation is one of the few issues left that can really unite people across the aisle, different political backgrounds, it can really unite us for public action. So I want to thank you Orvis and the long, long list of conservation partners that you guys support. Keep fighting the good fight of what you're doing. So my question came up during your discussion on stone flies. So you mentioned that east coast trout don't seem to hit top water stone flies the way they do out west and I agree wholeheartedly, I've seen the pictures of the prolific salmon fly hatches, my brothers out in Bozeman, Montana and I've never seen a trout live stone fly on the top water, fish from North Carolina, Tennessee, up the Appalachian mountains on the east coast and I haven't seen it but I have caught a lot of trout on chubby Chernobles and stimulators. So I was wondering, do you think they're taking those as stone flies? I've seen them in the spring before there's hoppers and crickets out, so just wanted to get your thoughts on that. Thanks for everything you do. Well, thank you, John, for that call and for your comments, appreciate that and it was great to meet you. I too have never seen a trout eat an adult stone fly on the water in the east. However, using a throat pump, I have occasionally found them in trout's gullets, so they do eat them but I think it's rare and I think it's more, they eat them more like they would eat them off or a grasshopper or a cricket or other terrestrial because of course they hatch out of the water so when they get onto the water, generally they get blown onto the water or when they're coming back to lay their eggs. But they do eat them and just because a chubby Chernobyl was tied, I guess, to imitate a stone fly doesn't mean that fish think it's a stone fly. We tie an imitation of something and we think we're imitating one thing. The fish might think it's something else and I think that in the case of the chubby, it's just a buggy looking thing that trout see as food. They probably don't think it's anything in particular and they're not going to look at a chubby and say, "Oh, that looks like a stone fly, I don't eat stone flies." They're going to look at it and see those rubber legs wiggling in that foam body and say, "Hmm, that looks good, looks like a bug, I think I'll eat it." They eat moths and they eat other fairly large insects on a regular basis. Just keep fishing those chubbies and don't worry about the fact that fish aren't eating stone flies, it's a great fly. Here's an email from Ian in North Wales, "Thank you for your consistently great podcast. They inform, educate, and entertain in equal measure." Comment. I often fish natural lakes and reservoirs in North Wales that have some native fish but are also stocked with various trout species. I found the 24 June 2024 podcast with Chad Critchley interesting and useful. One thing Mr. Critchley didn't mention was how to deal with multiple hookups on a multi-fly rig. I recently witnessed a very young but highly accomplished competition angler practicing on my local lake and at two times he had two and sometimes three fish simultaneously hooked on his four-fly rig. I guess that helps win competitions but it didn't look like that much fun. I usually fish a single fly so I don't have this problem myself. Question. I noted your enthusiasm for the pro trout lines and I'm likely to buy one soon. What criteria would make me choose the more expensive textured line over the smooth? I have to say these lines would be much better value for me if they were double tapers. Another comment. Many recent podcasts made passing reference to UK carp angling. This is mainly a highly specialized form of bait fishing that seems a generated degree of obsession devotion rarely seen in other forms of angling. There's not much fly fishing for carp done here although I expect it will grow in popularity. Well thank you Ian very much for those observations and although it doesn't look like much fun to you I would think catching two or three fish at once would be kind of exciting and interesting so I wouldn't mind doing it. I don't know I think I've only caught two fish at once a couple times in my life and they were small trout so it didn't really wasn't really that exciting. Regarding your question about the pro trout lines in general the textured lines which are a little bit more expensive are going to shoot better and they're going to float a little bit better because of the textured finish. There's more surface area in the textured finish and the little tiny bumps act as kind of a ball bearings on the fly ride guide so they shoot a little bit better. You can shoot a little bit more aligned you get a little bit more distance however they do make a little bit of noise when they go through the guides and some people just don't like the sound or the feel of those lines so we also make them in smooth and it's more more traditional feeling line. I go back and forth between smooth and textured lines and I honestly don't see that much difference in performance I think it's a personal preference but if you are looking for the absolute highest floating line and you want to get a little bit more distance and you're probably better and the noise a little bit of noise doesn't bother you you're better off going for the textured lines and spending a little bit extra money. Here's an email from Mark from Rhode Island. Purple fly patterns seem to be the norm out west but are they effective in the northeast? Well Mark, in my observations, trout or trout, bugs or bugs and we don't know why trout are attracted to purple flies but they are they seem to be anyways whether a purple fly is any better than a black fly or another darker colored fly I don't know I'm not so sure that that's important but they are popular they do work and I have caught I've caught a lot of fish in the northeast on a purple body datum and I've also caught many fish on a purple copper john and other purple nymphs and purple streamers so they work in the northeast just as they would work nearly anywhere in the world. Here's an email from RK from New Jersey. It's sometime between April and October you're in a small eastern stream you know the type where an 8-inger is a jaw dropper a blue liner you get one dry fly to pick A a beetle B and C cricket D chubby E-humpy what's it going to be why is this something not on the list what size what weight and length rod what length leader in a diameter tippet how are you fishing it are you plopping it down to draw attention are you twitching it does this change if the stream changes locations if it's a meadow instead of a mountain alright RK first of all it's it's going to be pretty it's going to be pretty straightforward for me it's going to be a seven and a half foot through a rod it's going to be a seven and a half foot 4x leader it's going to be a chubby Chernobyl in size 12 or 14 and the reason for the chubby Chernobyl is that it's going to float all day with repeated applications of desiccant powder it I can fish one fly all day long and it will continue to float because I want to be able to see it I want to be able to make sure that my fly is in the right place and because I'm most often hanging a nymph on it and none of those other patterns are going to hold a nymph up when I fish dry dropper a beetle ant cricket cricket might hold up a a a nymph but they're hard to see because they're black unless you got a poster a piece of red yarn on or something and humpy humpy's a good small stream fly but again I can't I can't hang a nymph very well on a humpy unless it's a little tiny nymph so by using the chubby middle float just about any any nymph except the very heaviest ones I can I can see it it appeals to the fish and I can fish dry dropper on it so I will you know switch flies occasionally but that's what I'm going to go with and if I'm in a meadow stream and the water is is smooth and the light is good I might fish a beetle or a humpy I don't fish ants that much unless I fish them behind a bigger fly because they're just so hard to see a fish is sunken ant sometimes but yeah generally you know it's going to be a beetle or a hopper in a meadow stream if I can if I can see the fly but you know if the river or the stream has got any kind of current at all and any kind of bubbles I really want that higher floating fly so I could see exactly where the fly is and if I got a nymph hanging on there I can see my indicator I hope that answers your question here's an email from Drew I've really enjoyed some of your more recent guests and topics this continues to be the go go to podcast for me I especially like although my wallet doesn't your product reviews and recommendations I have a couple questions one I have a comment in a couple questions number one this is a comment few podcasts ago I believe it was Dan was asking about the history of trout in the United States I wanted to recommend looking back I want to recommend looking back at a few issues of the American Museum of Flyfishing's journal the American Flyfisher now get ready people if you're interested in the history of trout in United States you're going to have to take notes because there's some some references here they had a three part series on how rainbow trout came to Missouri and your state - these can be found in the spring 2021 volume 47 number two summer 2021 volume 47 number three that's part two and fall 2021 volume 47 number four part three I know these this is pretty area specific but it is very interesting and includes many maps and pictures that help describe it I really enjoy this magazine and enjoyed the episode with Sarah Foster and by the way if you're not a member of the American Museum of Flyfishing in and you're interested in that journal it's a terrific magazine on the history of fly not just American flyfishing but of flyfishing in general it's a little bit more of a scholarly journal but it's a lot of fun and there's some fascinating articles in there and if you become a member of the museum you get that journal four times a year so and it's actually a physical magazine not an online magazine which I very much enjoy question one is there a difference between building a dubbing loop and splitting the thread and dubbing that way it seems that they are very similar and end product but I was wondering if there are times when you would prefer one over the other question three I have a nine foot four weight recon and honestly is one of my favorite all-time rods with the release of the New Helios I was wondering if recon's or even clear waters go through improvements or they just usually replaced by a new model so regarding your first question I don't do the split thread dubbing method that much I can see where it's useful and I think it would be useful particularly on smaller flies where you don't have to insert a lot of dubbing but you have to be careful with that method you have to have a pretty strong thread and I generally use 12/0 thread which is tough to split and is not as strong as some of the other threads and you know splitting the thread and your dubbing loop you know when you're spinning that dubbing loop you're putting a fair amount of pressure on the thread and it can break the thread so I typically just make a loop with my thread and dub that way but I can see where splitting the thread is quicker and easier and I just urge you to try it I don't know if there's any advantage on one over the other as you said they pretty much achieve the same thing regarding your question about recon rods or nervous rods in general recon's and clear waters. You know we don't come we don't make a new series every year on every rod series it usually ends up being three four five years and the philosophy at Orvis is we're not going to come out with a new series just to come out with a new series there has to be a performance advantage or a strength advantage or a durability advantage if we're going to change the rod so when a new series of recon's come out it'll be it'll be you know announced as a new recon new generation of recon you can bet that there's been some improvements made on that the recon's from year to year if the model number hasn't changed in other words the Orvis item number then it's just it's going to be the same rod but you'll know when it's a new series because they'll say they'll say new nuclear water new recon so so on and you can you pretty much bet that they're going to be a better rod than the previous generation because we learn more with every new generation of rods on how to make them better lighter stronger and more accurate. Hey Tom this is Charlie coming at you from the high country of western North Carolina. Thanks so much for putting on such a great podcast. I find the information that you and your guests present to be really valuable as I continue to grow in the sport and get to chase this passion. I know you just did a deep dive on sunglasses but it's left me with a question that I was hoping you might be able to help me with. As the days are getting longer I'm finding myself with more opportunities to fish in the evening a lot of the times with another angler in a boat and close quarters so protecting my eyes is paramount. Inevitably I find myself casting to the bitter end of the daylight but at that point my sunglasses are more of a hindrance than a help but I worry that taking them off leaves me susceptible to a stray hook. The two options I've considered thus far are a pair of safety glasses from the hardware store or maybe a pair of the driving glasses with those yellow lenses. Anything you would recommend for those situations where you're launching the boat pre-dawn or getting to the take out as the lightning bugs are coming out. Thanks again for everything you do and stay with it. Charlie you are absolutely right that sunglasses are hindrance and evening fishing and I see people all the time with their sunglasses still on when it's just about dark and that just cuts down your resolution and you're not going to be able to see things as well because you're blocking a lot of light and there is a much light left. I think you're absolutely right that you should take off your sunglasses in the evening. Or as you so wisely state that you need some kind of safety glasses particularly if you're in a boat with somebody else and you never know where their casts are going to go. So I think your two options are spot on either safety glasses or the driving glasses with yellow lens will enhance the contrast a little bit in low light. Again they do cut down your resolution slightly so you know you can probably also get a pair of what's called Plano or clear glasses to wear in the evening and you know maybe one of the other idea would be to go for an eye examination and maybe you need just a little bit of help on your distance vision and you can get a pair of prescription glasses which is what I do and then wear your prescription glasses in the evening and safety glasses aren't going to have that good optics. General safety glasses are pretty lousy optically. The driving glasses with the yellow lens is probably a better idea and I would get as light a yellow lens as you can so that you don't lose resolution. Okay that is the fly box for this week. Let's go talk to Jason Randall about two more of the trout senses. My guest today is Jason Randall and Jason and I recently did a podcast on trout vision and I wanted to do all the trout senses and Jason said no we can't do them all I want podcasters so much on vision but wanted to do one on trout hearing and trout smell. What can they hear? What can they smell and does it matter to us so Jason welcome back to the podcast. Thanks Tom it's great to be back here with you. It's always a pleasure having you on and as I said before your books are so valuable a reference for me when I'm doing my own writing I crib a lot of Jason Randall because you've really done a lot of work with currents and trout senses and you know it's great stuff it's great stuff and you know the biology you've studied the background you've studied the studies so it's great to have you back on the podcast. Well thanks Tom I appreciate it I enjoy talking with you especially when we get to talk about trout and fishes. Yeah so let's talk about let's talk about their other senses what should we do. Should we do smell first and get that one out of the way? Well we can you know let's start with with hearing okay all right. Because hearing is such a vital importance to their you know to their well-being from prey capture to predator avoidance you can think of their sense of hearing and their sense of smell too really it's kind of their long range senses where your their sense of sight might be somewhat limited for distance because clarity or water staining beyond a certain point vision gets a little less accurate sound and smell can be transmitted for great distances. Okay so we could think of them those two senses really as kind of their long range senses. Yeah all right so let's talk about hearing hearing and vibrations both right. Well the basis of hearing of course is sound and you know sound is created by some kind of a mechanical disturbance and it's transmitted as mechanical waves then to our receptors or our hearing apparatus and that then transmitted to our brain and we perceive it as sound. So if you look at the transmission of sound it requires some kind of medium whether it's air or water that's compressible and that can transmit these these waves then of pressure changes that we register in our ear as sound. There's a great difference between air and water and so five times more dense is water than air and so the transmission of sound and water is far different than than it is in air and then our ears obviously have adapted to the way we perceive sound and the environment we live in and then the trowards ear and their hearing receptor is very much attuned to the underwater world in which they live and there's times you know if you're standing in the river and you hear the sound of the rushing water and you think how could they hear anything with all that background noise it'd be like hearing a whisper at a rock concert yeah how can they hear anything but look at the you know they're hearing their sense of hearing and their ability to hear it's very much fine tuned to the world they live in. Right. So there's two ways that these mechanical waves are transmitted one is by pressure you know meaning that there is some kind of a compressibility to the medium in which it's transmitted air or water and air is a lot more compressible and so the second component of the second way that sound waves are transmitted these mechanical waves are through essentially particle collisions where particle motion it's like dominoes where air or water molecules are agitated and the agitation is spread from particle to particle in air it would be through the molecules of oxygen and nitrogen and in water it would be you know hydrogen and oxygen that is really propagating that mechanical wave. So because air is so much more come from the nature of transmission of sound in air is more through pressure waves the particles of air are so far apart because it is a very less dense medium that there isn't that much particle to particle transmission of the sound it's more on pressure waves. And one though that's far more dense and the molecules are so much closer together just because of the density of the water there's a lot more particle to particle collision collision of one molecule into the next that were created by the disturbance in the water that created the sound and we see a lot more particle to particle transmission and that's called particle motion. So in water the hearing apparatus for trout their ear if you will is really fine tuned to this type of particle motion and their hearing really is centered around an otolith which is almost like a crystal from the old crystalline radios that we used to have that are sensitive to vibration. So you can think of that component of sound in water is more vibration where the transmission of sound in air is more along the lines of pressure waves and oscillations and pressures that we perceive. So you go to your concert and the musical instruments and the speakers are playing the music they're creating mechanical disturbances in the environment that are variable and amplitude and frequency and pitch and all of these complex waves that are transmitted through the air as pressure changes and oscillating pressure waves. And then our eardrum is very fine tuned to pick up sensitivities and changes in pressure and then we filter that out then in our brain and then we hear Mozart's concerto. Okay. Maybe in our case it might be Led Zepp. It might be, it could be more grateful deadhead I don't know. That's what we're hearing but if you took your cup of coffee and you set it on the speaker take a look at the at the at the oscillations in the vibrations the sense that that that are picked up in the fluid medium. You see a whole different set of of mechanical waves just by putting your coffee cup on there it's more like vibration. Right. And so really that's what is most perceived audibly for trout as as that is heard. Now in water there is a wave component as well as the particle motion component. So they do have a little bit of both. So they are able to pick up waves. So you can think of the wave is throwing a rock in a pond and you see the waves that are transmitted as ripples across the surface and trout can detect those as well. But maybe not with the otolith in their inner ear. That's going to be something that's more perceived with the lateral line. Okay. So the lateral line often gets kind of lumped in as a sense of hearing but it's really not. It's more like probably more analogous to a cat's whiskers that are picking up mechanical disturbances in the forms of these waves. These are going to be low frequency waves and they can be amplified by the third component of the trout's quote unquote "hearing apparatus" which is their air sack. And so that's like a resonating chamber that's alongside and kind of under their center of mass alongside the lateral line. So that's kind of like a resonating chamber that facilitates these low frequency sound waves. In a sense, it's as much a sense of touch and detecting disturbances as it is a sense of hearing these other two ancillary organs. And so that's how trout can position themselves right on the edge of a current sea. Mechanical waves are not necessarily only created by a sound disturbance. They can be created by current as well. Differentials can pick up the slightest change in current differential and put themselves right on that where they can kind of hide out to save energy and getting out of the current to grab food. It's also a great long range predator avoidance system as well. If large predators on the move, he's creating a bow wave as he swims through and his tail. You know, movements and fin movements are creating disturbances that are transmitted as waveform energy and it's picked up by that lateral line. So I remember one time I was walking in one of our small driftless streams up here and it was kind of a slower moving pond and not a pond pool. And I was standing in there and I took some pictures and I was doing some observations and I took one step forward. I really didn't think I made any sound, but I created a waveform disturbance that went all the way up, up into the head of the pool, even against the current by my wave of my movement and even though the trout didn't see me, they all took off because that wave is perceived by them through the lateral line essentially and it warned them that a large predator, which in that case was on the move. Do you think though, and this is my theory and I could be totally wrong, that those waves that we push when waiting or when a hair and steps in the water or whatever are picked up by their visual field because the water starts to wiggle in a way that's not normal? I think so. I think that's going to be true. And that's why a hair and kind of just nice through the water, you see them kind of just knifing their legs into the water like a professional diver off a diving board. They knife into the water to create a little disturbance as possible. I think truly that's how the are so successful is because all these things do play a role. So let's talk about the noise that we create when we wait. Let's say we're not pushing a bow wake, but we're rubbing our metal studs on a rock or we're tapping our tip of our waiting staff. Maybe it's not, it's got a metal tip instead of a rubber tip. Do trout hear that? How far away do they hear that? And does it matter? Does it bother them? Yeah, all are true. I think they do hear it, they can hear it from a long distance. And their frequency set of their inner ear, if you will, their ear itself is really tuned to those frequencies and it really does kind of filter out a lot of the background noise of the river stream itself. And so they are really keyed in to those types of sound generated within that frequency range. And then again, they use their air sack as a resonating chamber, if you will, and then the lateral line will pick up those alternate frequencies, which again, those are those really heard or are those more felt? And that's why sometimes lateral line is to be referred to as a remote sense of feeling. But essentially, they are detecting frequencies outside of their audible range, just like we do. You go to that. Fun concert. And you can hear the full range of the music within the human ear, but you can also feel in the pit of your stomach or the hollow of your chest, you can feel the impact of the sound that you can't necessarily hear. And that's true of truth. So they kind of can hear in this range, and they can perceive in another range. And so how that works for us anglers in the river is it tends to filter out a lot of that background noise that we would find very distracting. And it really concentrates, I think, their attention on those sounds that would be a immediate threat to them. And so I think anything that's disturbing the environment, whether it's us as waiting or, you know, another predator on the move, I think they picked that up. And so I'm very conscious when I weighed that, you know, I'm trying to minimize the impact of those, you know, metal studs on the gravel and that clump, clump, clump of the waiting staff. I do think, and I've seen it happen and you have to, that the trout are alerted by those sounds. They're considered unnatural. They mean identify it with us per se, but they know it's not supposed to be there and they know it's not probably healthy for it. Yeah, I have to, I've seen the opposite. And so I made disagree. Here you are. Stir in the pot again. I know I'm stirring the pot here, but, you know, I have, I have stood behind trout that I could see, and I, without pushing a bow wave, without, you know, disturbing the water, I mean, you know, maybe it will occur. And I have rubbed my, I've rubbed my studs on the bottom and I have tapped my waiting staff tip and it doesn't seem to, I don't see any change in their body language. I don't see any, any, any movement or, you know, spooking or any indication that, that they're disturbed. Now, as soon as I push a bow wave, boom, you know, it's over. They're gone. Yeah. And I think certainly the bow wave is probably more readily identified as a threat, whereas, you know, they may not perceive some of these other sounds we generate as threatening, you know, it's all going to be, you know, conditioning their environment and, you know, the development of their predator avoidance systems and stuff like that. I'm not sure. I'll have to look at that the next time I'm out in the water. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, you know, it's something that I've never, I've never had a, you know, never had an ultimate decision on it, but there's just my observation and could be in different rivers. It would matter. Yeah. I think so. You know, and I think different conditions it matters to, you know, when there's times where the trout are already anxious, I mean, clear blue sky days, midday, mid-afternoon circumstances, even a sparrow flying over the pool can kind of put them on alert. I think I think that different circumstances could certainly have, you know, have an impact as well. All right. So I should, I should probably pay more attention to my metal studs and my waiting staff tip. I think we all should. Yeah. All right. Anything we can do to stack a little bit in our favor, you know, trout are such grippy adversaries. They do, they do demand our respect. Yeah. I think anything we can do and, and sometimes maybe we get a little less uttering on some of it, but, you know, that's what makes these discussions interesting. And how far away do you think in the water can a trout perceive the sounds that we make when we're waiting? That's a great question and it's really dependent on that dual nature of sound transmission. The particle, the particle movement aspect of sound transmission doesn't go very far. And so those, and it probably qualifies here, higher frequency sounds that we make with our metal studs in the gravel or our waiting stick. Because those would be more particle to particle transmission, they probably, they don't go that far. Okay. But the waveform of, of that type of disturbance can go 30, 40 feet up into the head of the pool where I, where I found the problem, and they can even go around corners so they can follow river bands because the waves can, can, can, because they're low frequency, they can actually kind of walk around slight bends in the, in the river. And that's why you can, you don't need a direct line of transmission. That's why you could be in one room and your wife or husband in the other, and you could talk in one direction, but they could hear you, you know, through a closed door. It's because those pressure waves can be transmitted for pretty long distances and they don't need a direct line of communication. But those pressure waves are always, almost always going to have a visual aspect, right? They're going to. Yeah. Not necessarily. You're the people's on the water. Yeah. Where mechanical waves in sound don't have to create a visual effect to be transmitted. But yes, definitely those ripples you see on the water are the lowest in frequency. They're very, you know, they're, they're very perceivable visually, but not, not necessarily all of them would, would fall into that category. So splashy waiting, they can hear that, not just. They can feel it in here, yeah. Feel it in here and see it if you're, you know, if you're not in a riffle that's pushing the waves back toward you. You could see it for sure, you know, for sure. And it's just like the rock concert, you can hear it and you can feel the music. Okay. They can hear it, you know, audibly detectable, you know, in their frequency of hearing, but they can also feel it through, just like the hollowness in your chest. They've got a hollow organ to, you know, their air sac. And that's going to, you know, resonate and, and be able to detect sounds that may be out of the optimal range, mechanical wave, then as a, as a pressure wave. Now, now on the opposite side of things, kind of the opposite side of things, we can use these sounds to our advantage with certain flies. Right. Well, sure, sure. That's a good point to, you know, the splat that a hopper makes on the water that creates a visible wave. It creates a pressure wave that is detected, but not necessarily visible. And it can also create that particle displacement aspect of sound too. And again, we have to keep in mind that these are their long range senses. And so they could hear that hopper hit the water from a much further distance than they could see it. Yeah, so they could be attracted to the general area and by, by the sound because they can, they have the ability to triangulate sound, you know, the same way we do their ears are on either side of their head and they've got a lateral line on either side of their head and then they are on the other side of their body and then they've got this air sac ventralyke around their belly. So this allows them just like us to pinpoint kind of the direction of the sound. And then they can go right to it. And then once they're in range, then they are a visual predator. They make their decisions on prey and eating visually, but their, their sense of hearing could certainly focus their attention and draw them to that area. It's like, you know, I don't know if you, you play in one fish, you know, and here comes a larger fish swooping in to take advantage of a, of an easy meal. And he probably didn't see that happen, but he heard it. Yeah. Well, one of the, one of the most effective ways of fishing a terrestrial, if you can see a fish, is to drop it behind them with a sound and you get a reaction strike. They wheel around and eat it without getting a good look at it. And that's interesting. It's a deadly. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. It's a, you know, with a beetle or a hopper, it's often a deadly technique to, to throw it on their tail. Yeah. Sometimes it scares them, but you know, there's always that, but yeah, that works. But yeah. And again, you know, it just, it just gets their attention and, and gets them looking in that direction. And sometimes they eat without looking. That's a good thing. So how about, how about fishing in dirty water at night or, or even in, in kind of swirly water with a, a fly that like a muddler with a deer hairhead that creates vibrations or at least, at least that's the theory, right, that a fly with Palmer tackle or a deer hair head or whatever creates vibrations that they can feel and they can track it down. Just like. Yeah. I think that's, that's really an effective way of not only fishing flies, but designing them as well. Don't you think? Yeah. I mean, it's the theory anyways, seems to work. I think, I think a trout or a fish can detect, you know, and, and discriminate between a bow wave and, and swimming activity, you know, from a potential meal from that of a predator, which is a potential threat. And so I think that, you know, the, the, they really do key in on, okay, this is something to eat. I'm going to, I'm going to come here and take a closer look or this is a, a predator making a much larger disturbance with the tail movements and tin movements and that bowache and then they run. And I think, I think sometimes, maybe this is a thought and maybe just building on that a little bit, but you know, you see giant, giant streamers, you know, and, and, and it kind of selects us maybe just for these larger fish, you know, targeting larger fish, but maybe it's actually scaring away, you know, maybe some of the smaller fish and they're perceiving it as a, a threat. And only the larger fish that are attracted to it as a meal. It's kind of an interesting thought. How far away do you think they can sense those vibrations of, you know, of a D and D or a, a mudler minnow or something, you know, something with a big broad head made a deer here, hackle, hair, I think it depends on the current, you know, and, and how effective and I don't know that we always know the answer to some of those questions, but they're interesting to the conjecture about. But I do think that especially the pressure wave component of sound can be transmitted to great distances, but there's also attenuation involved, you know, over the longer distances. So I do think at the factor, how far exactly could they make that determination? I don't know. Yeah, I don't either. I wish I knew he'd try it. Yeah. We'll play with it. Yeah. Yeah. We'll, we'll keep learning, right? We're always learning. That's it. The learning sport, man, you know, it's a, it's a sport for people that want to keep learning. Yeah. So, um, it's pretty obvious to be anyone that's fished for a long time that trout don't hear us talking above the water or yelling, they don't know, contrary to what my dad told me, six years old, and the boat with him, and he says, you can't talk, and I think he didn't want to listen to the endless babble of a five or six year old kid. So like, no, you're right, because, because of the sharpness of the interface and the differences in sound transmissibility between air and water, the pressure waves that we primarily use in sound when we're speaking or making noise above the water does not translate into, you know, mechanical waves under the water with the exception that if you're standing in a aluminum bottom boat and you've got that six year old boy that's tap dancing and jumping around, that is a whole different thing that those disturbances are directly in the medium of the water, and that does have a big factor. Yeah, I know I've, I've fished with redfish guides before who don't like loud talking in a boat, because they feel that that you can create some resonance with the hall of the boat and the redfish can sense it. Well, you know, I wouldn't dispute that possibility that our bodies could transmit, you know, through our feet into the floor, that's becoming a little bit esoteric, but here's another example, if you take that transition, transition, transistor radio or that boom box or that speaker and you put it on the seat of the boat and you're playing Led Zeppelin, I think that's a whole different thing, but as far as our bodies, because we know that once we create the sound waves with talking that's in there that doesn't transmit into the water, they're probably thinking that the resonance that it creates in our chest that would set up vibrations that would be transmitted through our feet, through the whole about into the water. Yeah. Maybe, maybe a little, I won't say far-fetched, but certainly esoteric and maybe something I wouldn't necessarily be concerned about, but maybe they should just put some carbon on the bottom of the boat. Great, transistor radio, Led Zeppelin, half the people who say his podcast don't even know what a transistor radio is, probably, you're dating us, Jason. I'm so terrible. Right? Oh well. That's what we grew up with, right? Yeah. And your dad telling you to shut up and sit down and quit dancing in the bottom of the boat. I think dad just wanted to drink his beer and didn't want to be disturbed by the kid. I think that's true. All right. So that's sound and hearing. Let's talk about smell. Yeah. Okay. I know we kind of hit that topic pretty well. There's a lot of scissors in sound and hearing, and it's hard sometimes to, you know, to really get a handle on it, but the sense of smell is a little bit more akin to ours. You know, they've got chemo receptors and they have them concentrated in the old factory organ, but they also have them on their lips and gill plates and, you know, externally as well. Some fish are really heavily skewed that direction that are used to feeding in, you know, in really turbid water like a catfish, they've actually got a goose of couture receptors on their marbles. Right. You know, they have an all over their face in order to do pre-identification in a really limited visual environment. Trout have that as well. Their sense of smell and their sense of taste like ours are pretty well linked. Very, very sensitive. You know, but I don't know, I mean, you always use the example of the salmon and fish that migrate from way off in the Pacific Ocean and come up into their stream of origin, we call it natal stream, you know, how do they do that? And, you know, essentially it's almost, from a strictly old factory sense, it's almost impossible that they could register, you know, one part in 20 billion, you know, the delusion effect of their natal stream is probably too great. And it really prompted a lot of investigation into, okay, well, what truly is the mechanism of migration and some of these things. And we really have come down to the point that there is really some kind of a geo-locator device that is in play as well. They found magnetite particles and the skulls of some salmon and fish that probably are doing almost like a geo-locator, getting them kind of in a target zone off of maybe their sensing magnetic field variations and getting in the weeds close enough for their sense of smell but kick in. Oh yeah, take a look at other species too, look at the Arctic term, you know, they go, every year they migrate 20,000 miles back and forth between Arctic and sub-Arctic, you know, Antarctica. And some of the new research has shown that they're not only following food sources and concentrating in food areas during their migration but they're also following like the Atlantic ridged, you know, of sub-surface structure really in the ocean and they're following these things. And how could they follow them so closely? Well, they do feel that there is some kind of a magnetic effect or some kind of a detector that we still haven't quite identified, I mean, to go 20,000 miles a year is over the lifetime of a turn, Arctic turn, you know, they live to be 20 or 30 years old, that's like back and forth to the moon twice or something like that. Yeah. It's crazy distances that they cover and they cover it so accurately and consistently that there is the theory that there's probably some other device that's being used and we kind of come up with some of these ideas of magnetic theories, magnet, residents, magnetic variations, whatever it might be and it's same as conjectured for some of the migratory fish. They get close enough where they can really smell then, you know, and their smelling is really not, are they smelling the chemical content and the actual water type of their needle stream or is it something else? And now, current thinking is that they're actually smelling their kin, their con specifics of the biological term, that means their relatives. Other fish that they're related to that are also coming into the in and out of that birth stream, that needle stream, if you will, they're smelling, you know, the fecal material and fecal recognition or bioassage or some of these things that say, Hey, these are my relatives, this is home, even though there may be not sisters to those fish, because they're in different generations, they could be where their aunt's uncle's nephews and nieces, but they have this kin recognition that, okay, this is our our familial home, the home of our relatives, and I'm going to go up this stream. Interesting. Cool. Yeah, it's pretty cool stuff. It's not perfect, I mean, it's maybe it's 95%, that means 5% maybe go up the wrong stream, and that's kind of a great design anyway, because that helps with genetic diversity, you know, and avoiding creating purely isolated, you know, genetic pools. Right. Yeah, there have to be some strays and I certain things I think Pacific salmon will stray a lot more than say steelhead will. You're right. Yeah. I think that's true. Hmm. Okay, so can trout smell our flies? Can they taste? Can they taste them? Should I be putting power bait on my streamers? Okay, I have to confess, I was doing research on this book and, yeah, it's a little embarrassing anyway. I've done it too, go ahead. Good. Good. I did. What an absolution. I went over to the stage store and I bought a bunch of mud middles and I brought them home on my wife's cutting board, which I found out did not endure me in her eyes, but I came to all these little mud middles with a scalpel and I thought, if I could make it smell like a baitfish, you know, or some kind of a meal. So I created a slurry and I took it with my fishing buddies down the river and so they're in the front of the boat, dipping their streamers in the water and I'm in the back of the boat. My streamers into the slurry and then throwing them out in the water and I did this and it took me until they caught me. Oh man, you're a baitfisher, but now that's why I always fish in the stern. Yeah, I know, but it honestly, in a couple of days that I did a bit of difference. Yeah. So I don't know again, trout or visual predators, they make their determination visually, you know, that's how they decide what to eat and they're curious. I mean, they know, you know, they make mistakes too or we would never catch them, but I don't think they're really relying as much on their sense of smell as a determinant, prey determinant. Now, like, yeah, we talked about sense of hearing, sense of smell as being their long range determinants, you know, their stress hormones and all kinds of stuff that they release that are somewhat attractive and will bring trout or sharks, you know, it's like your bonefish, you know, you catch your bonefish and all of a sudden shark shows up. Yeah. You know, and that could be partly sound disturbance, it could be partly the stress hormones that are being released by the struggling fish. So yeah, they use them to get in the vicinity. And so I think the sense of hearing and the sense of smell certainly are long range senses that get their attention, but they don't make their decisions based on it. And I think that was borne out in my slurry dipping experiment with my streamers on the white mirror. I didn't catch any more fish than anybody else. Otherwise, I would have had that patented it. And the thing that the thing about the in a current is that the fly is moving so quickly through the through the current that they probably don't have any kind of chance to zero in on a smell. Probably not. And you do have to remember that's true that the you know, the current is unidirectional typically and it's moving downstream. And so they're not going to smell anything below them, you know, in that type of a situation, like a hunt and a good bird dog, you know, they've got to get in the scent of the bird before they can, you know, before they can detect that. Right. Probably, would you think that if you were bait fishing on the bottom where your bait wasn't moving that the sense of smell might play a part? I think that, you know, all the old corn balls that we used to do for catfish and stuff like that and the bait balls, those things. Yeah. You know, and again, in that kind of an environment, you know, those types of fish definitely do make more of their prey decisions based on smell or taste with their receptors. I think in that environment, you know, they've developed and, you know, that part of their feeding strategy. But for trout and most other game fish, I don't think it's really that important, you know, as far as that goes, close-range prey decision making is not done based on those senses. It's visually. Yeah. Well, when they reject our nymph or our streamer, you know, when they spit it out, is that a taste reaction or is that a tactile reaction, do you think? Well, if I would think both, I mean, I think it's instantly recognizable as fraud. Our trickery, you know, has been discovered and usually at least hopefully a quick hook set on our part, but sometimes a broken heart on our part too. But yeah, I do think, you know, I mean, trout are curious and all fish, are you, you know, we've done stomach pump analysis and you find cigarette butts in there and safety pins and weird stuff. And so, you know, it's like sometimes like an infant where everything goes in the mouth to be evaluated and they do reject a lot of stuff based on the artificial characteristic of that material, whether it's our fly or a cigarette. But I think it's pretty immediately recognizable as fraud and expelled. So if we dipped our nymphs in mayfly slurry, do you think they'd, do you think they would hold on to it a little longer? Oh, good. Now my wife has something else to look for to be able to be followed up. You haven't tried that. You haven't tried a mayfly slurry yet, huh? Yeah, you're trying to prove my marriage, which you're trying to do. Yeah, but you know what, again, I, I, I power beat in, in past fishing. They too worked out, you know, and so, um, I don't know, you know, I, I don't think it hurts anything. If, if somebody, you know, wants to try that, they can, I'd be, I'll be very curious as to the result. Okay. Um, I don't, honestly, we know that, that, that, that, that trout and, and again, trout and bass are different too. You're looking at a classic ambush hunter, you know, as opposed to, you know, you know, more of a chaser overtaker. And so they're, they're mechanisms for prey capture of, have evolved somewhat and developed somewhat differently. Yeah. You know, we, I don't know. The power bait stuff for bass though. Right. So, and it works for catfish, the bait balls and stuff like that. So there is certainly that to be considered, but in all the, the literature I've looked at in, in my own experience, you know, I have found it, it hasn't been a huge enough factor to, to make me want to scatter insects on the kitchen table. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. We'll save your marriage. Yeah. I appreciate that. How about, how about, when a hatch starts, do you think that trout can smell the emergence of the insects? Do you think that's part of it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the, the best example of that to me was fishing the hex hatch in Michigan. You know, and, and, you know, you're just sitting there, you know, it's dark. You can't see anything, it's a bill of night and, you know, you're up there fishing and all of a sudden, you know, you, you get this kind of this whiff of this odor that smells like a cricket box at the bait store and you look up and, and you put your flashlight up and the sky is just, it's just a, it's just a thoroughfare of, of hex mayflies heading upstream to, to egg lay and drop, you know, and you can smell it. So, so definitely I do think, I do think there is a component of that that wets their appetite and gets them, you know, kind of like Pavlov's dog as they start drooling, you know, and it gets them alert to the, the meal at hand. But again, all of that sent in the water, it's going to be picked up by their sense of smell, going to get them excited, going to get them ready to eat salivating, even if you trout can salivate, which they probably cannot, but, you know, but then, but then their sense of sight takes over and then they capture their meals based on visual cues. Okay, I got a product now. Yeah, you take, you take that mayfly slurry and you go upstream of where you're going to fish and you hang it in a cloth bag in the water and then you run downstream, away from the water so you don't spook the fish and you, and you fish a dry fly and the fish are going to be ready to rise, right, because, because they smell the mayflies. Yeah, we're going to get rich, but we are already invented that again, really, because you go out to some of these places and you see these guys with, I went into a bait store one time, there's a can of, of Del Monte corn, yeah, out there had some guys dumping wads of Del Monte corn and then drifting downstream in his boat, you know, and he's just catching fish after fish after fish and probably a corn, but, you know, I think the, the, it definitely is, there's going to be something there. Yeah, I remember stepping into a, stepping into a boat, on the White River in Arkansas and seeing the bottom, bottom of the boat littered with girls and corn. I know, just don't get caught, do that from the stern of the boat while your buddy's up front. Okay. But you know what, if you're in a stern of the boat, anything that you're putting the water, he's probably benefiting from, because he's below it. So he's catching all the fish and you're still not, all right. So we got a product, you know, corn, yeah, corn, no, that's too, that's too pedestrian. We want to, we want to have a mayfly slurry. Oh man, we want something that, you know, that people pay money for, otherwise they go get their own can of corn. Right. Yeah. Do you think, do you think Orvis would, would go for that? Yeah. Um, I don't know, I don't know, and then I worry about the decimation of the mayfly population. You know, we're going to get all those mayflies to make the slurry. Which you probably know a guy though, right? Yeah. But my kid to work. There you go. Well, anyway, anything else on smell that, that anglers should know about, other than, they probably should experiment and see if it works. I think so. Keep an open mind and anything that we can do, you know, to even stack the deck a little bit. I talk a lot about how I have a program that I'd like to discuss that talks about how to get to that upper 10% angler category. And I left, he once told me, he said that, you know, 90% of the fish are caught by only 10% of the anglers, which means 10% of the anglers are doing 90% of the catching. Right. You want to be, you want to be in that 10% right? Right. So I put a program like that together and I just came up with, you know, with the conclusion that trying to get into that upper 10% isn't just one or two major things you can do. It's a sum total of hundreds of little things that you do that ends up maybe catching a few more fish at the end of the day. Yeah. And that's what makes it so fun. I mean, it's fun because you and I get a chance to, you know, as outdoor educators, you get a chance to really dive into these things and share these things with a sport that's always so eager, you know, we all want to keep learning and growing and that makes it fun. Yeah. And you've certainly contributed to that education over the years. Well, thank you. I appreciate that time. It's fun. And we both have been, you know, in that part of our sport for a long time. And it just, it's humbling and it's just a real privilege to be able to do that. And you get to work with so many different people too, you know, the other people that share those passions and share their knowledge and that part of it is truly humbling because you realize that all these people that are with, you know, clubs and organizations that are engaging anglers and sharing their knowledge and giving of their time and energy and resources to help further our sport to continue the interest in our sport that will keep it alive into the future generations. It's just, most people do, they do you own and work and oftentimes it doesn't get noticed to all these volunteers, whether it's project healing waters or whether it's TU clubs or other organizations. I mean, these, they have a tremendous impact in our sport. I get a, and you do too, we get a chance to really engage with those types of opportunities a lot. And here in the driftless area, you know, we've got the driftless women on this that really create a great educational and safe environment for women. I got a, I just finished up with a five day stream side program on the water teaching program with ultra fly fishing ministries. It's kind of a educational retreat, if you will, focuses not only on becoming better anglers, but becoming better people and, you know, just these organizations, you don't find these in other sports and we were working with fly fishers at the crossing, another great, great program, a fellowship of anglers that really, I don't know, they're just so focused on, you know, getting people into our sport and engaging them and becoming better people and, you know, give a shout out to, you know, some of those guys that are, that are doing it, Eric and Steve and Alter and, and John and Kenny and Jim, you know, with these other groups, these guys work so hard and boy, I'll tell you what it makes, it makes us really appreciate, you know, the sport that we have and we're so blessed. We are, we definitely are, we're very lucky. All right, Jason, well that is a good note to end on. As always, it's been fascinating talking to you and I'm sure my listeners have enjoyed this discussion. I hope we didn't put them to sleep, we kept enough mechanical waves going through the airways that we, we kept them going. I hope so. I hope so. I hope so. What's next for you? I think you're going out to Colorado, right? Yeah, in fact, when this drops, as people listening to this, I will probably be in Colorado. I've got 10, 10 presentations in a row at the, or of a stores and dealers and I'm really looking forward to it because I'm going to get the fish in between in the morning, probably chase some carp and some trout and some white bass and who knows what else, but it's always fun. Colorado is such a mecca for fly anglers. It's going to be fun. Yeah. And you're going out there too. Yeah, I'll be out there. I'll be, I've got a underwater program out there in the enforcement's paradise, you know, west of Woodland Park and I'll be fishing with Ed and, and landing and maybe pat out there, just hanging out and enjoying that part of our sport too, which is, which is always so special. Yeah. But just remember those carp, you're going to be catching their, you know, they're going to be triggered by their sense of smell and taste. So that might be a good time for that that can of corn. I just go buy some power bait, right? I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to experiment with that in the carp. Definitely. Okay. Okay. Well, it's great talking with you, Tom and thanks again for, for the opportunity to share this and have this discussion together. All right, Jason. And where can people, where can people reach you if they want to follow your, your website or your blog or Instagram? Yeah, that's, that's good to share because you know what, we've referenced quite a few things today and I will go back on my Instagram and I'll post some of these things that we just, that, that could be useful illustrations to kind of compliment our discussion. Great. I actually got that video that shows one, that pool and the disturbance it created and I'll post some of that stuff on my Instagram site and, and that would be at Jason Randall fly fishing. Okay. Instagram. Or you can just get me a Jason Randall on Facebook would work as well. But typically I tend to be a little bit more attentive to Instagram and I'll post a lot of educational material on there and certainly people can message me or, or anything. Please know, making fun of me on Instagram, but you can certainly add comments to these things. Oh, I like it when they make fun of me on Instagram. I enjoy that. That's the even better, right? Yeah. Talking smack. That's the best part of our sport. Yeah. Yeah. And oh, and you know what? Books too. You may quit and the people can buy your books. The one that focused on his trout sense and that really dives into, you know, the sense of vision that we talked about before and their, their, the senses we talked about today. Yeah. And then there's two other books that are considered the, the fly fishers guide trilogy, which were moving water of a fly fishers guide to currents and then feeding time, fly fishers guide to what would and where trout eat and then trout sense, which is a fly fishers guide to what trout see here and smell. So certainly, you know, those are available. The newest book is called Nymph Masters and that's fly fishing secrets from expert anglers. And that was fun because, you know, you get to fish with some, some really great fishermen and steal their, steal their secrets and publish them as your own. Oh, I don't think I have a copy of Nymph Masters. I'm going to have to get a copy of that. I do have a copy of the other three. It's been, it was a fun book because there's so much, you know, of that camaraderie in our sport and they did share so freely. I gave them credit for, for their, their participation in that book. So I didn't really plagiarize as much say, but it was, it was certainly fun. Okay, all right, Jason, well, thank you again and hope to see you soon. Thanks for listening to the Orvis Fly Fishing Podcast with Tom Roosevelt. You can be a part of the show, have a question or a comment, send it to us at podcast@orvis.com in the body of an email or as a voice attachment. You can find more free fishing tips at howtoflyfish.orvis.com (upbeat music) [BLANK_AUDIO]