- Welcome back everyone to the Frontline with Joe and Joe. Joe Osilow and Joe Ressinull, you're exactly right, Joe. - We work for the man upstairs as you do. - You're setting me up quite well. You just gave me an alley, you... - The greatest revolutionary act to commit right now is to open your mouth and speak the truth. - Whether you're an academic or you're a regular guy, you have to be fearless. - And once more, dear brothers and sisters, let us go into the breach. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Hello again everyone and welcome back to the Frontline with Joe and Joe, Joe Osilow. As always, joined by Joe Ressinullo and with more dear brothers and sisters, let us go into the breach of the Veritas Catholic Radio Network, 1350 on your AM dial, 103.9 on your FM dial, spreading the truth of the Catholic faith to the New York City metropolitan area. Two things, download the app, share it with your friends, you'll have access to all of our station's content. And hey, if you're like with Joe and I do, especially on social media, we don't only post our interviews up there that we do on Veritas, we also have our social media program which goes live Thursday nights at nine o'clock. Eastern time, like, subscribe, share, share this video. This is gonna be a fantastic conversation where the guests we are welcoming back to the show, Joseph Pierce. Joseph has written a new book which is out from Ignatius Press called The Good, The Bad and The Beautiful, History in Three Dimensions. So like I said, this is gonna be a fascinating conversation. We also always encourage everybody to buy the books for which we have on the authors from the publishers, please, if you can. This way we support our Catholic publishers like Ignatius Press, like Sophia Press, like Tan Books and the like. Many of you know, Joseph Pierce, having said that, Joseph Pierce is the author of numerous literary studies, including literary converts, The Quest for Shakespeare and Shakespeare on Love as well as Biographies of Oscar Wilde, J.R.R. Tolkien, C.S. Lewis and G.K. C.S. Chesterton and Alexander Solzhenitsyn. He is the general editor of the Ignatius Critical Editions series, Joseph Pierce, our brother. Welcome back to The Frontline with Joe and Joe. - It's good to be back. So I suppose it's Joe and Joe and Joe today then. - Joe and Joe and Joe. Hey, listen, what we have on Father Fessio, he says to you. - He says to you. - And then he leads us in a prayer to Saint Joseph. So we have like, you know, four Josephs going. So it's great. - I can't beat that. I can't beat Father Fessio anyway. So maybe it'll be fine. - But yeah, very good to have you back. Like I said, this is going to be a great conversation. And like I said, I encourage everybody out there. Please, especially if you're seeing this on social media, share it, share it all over the place. Joe and I might go out of our way to make sure we have our conversations, not only that, our audience is going to learn from, but Joe and I are as well. So with that, let me shut up, hand it over to Joe Russinello and we'll get rocking. - Joe, we always start with a prayer to our lady in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. And man, remember almost gracious Virgin Mary, never wasn't known that anyone who sought your help or sought your intercession was left unaided. Spide by this confidence, we fly into you, a virgin, a virgin's our mother. To you we come for you, we stand sinful and sorrowful. Our mother, the word incarnate, despise not a petitions, but in your clemency here in answer to the same M. Name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, a M. - Well, Joseph, I love the title of the book. It's a play clearly on Clint Eastwood's film, The Good, the Bad and the Youngly. Great movie, by the way, people. You should see that as well as by Joseph's book. I love this conversation 'cause I'm gonna begin it with the Father, Father, Heart and Quote, because I think it encapsulates a lot of what this is about and then we could kinda move forward from that. Father, Heart and says, as Catholics, we have to know the faith, live this faith, speak the truth and stutter for the truth. You see, this is the part that we don't wanna do as Catholics. We wanna do all those other things. A lot of people out there, I got a big mouth. I'm on social media, spewing lots of stuff. But when it comes down to supper, we don't wanna do it. And I think that's where the rubber meets the road. That's when our voices are really heard and that's what you're talking about here because The Bad is part of the good and the beautiful talk to us about it. - Yeah, we are completely correct, of course, that the good is inseparable from suffering because goodness is synonymous with charity, with caritas, with love. And to love, as a Christian understands it, is to lay down our lives by our friends and enemies. In other words, is to die to ourselves. So love is inseparable from suffering. It's epitomized, of course, by Christ on the cross. So if we want to be good, we have to suffer. If we're not suffering, we're not being good. But The Bad is actually, because we can't avoid suffering, what do we do with it? And so The Bad really is like the good and bad thief either side of Jesus Christ. The good thief knows that he's a miserable sinner, accepts the fact that he deserves to suffer and asks Christ to forgive him and is forgiven and goes to paradise. He's promised paradise by Christ. The bad thief, on the other hand, hates his suffering, blames everybody, God and man and labor and enemy for his suffering, curses the darkness and probably spends eternity in it. That's The Bad. So the book, The Good, The Bad and The Beautiful, basically is showing how this history is a tapestry of three threads. The threat of goodness, the threat of sanctity, threat of love, the threat of bad, wickedness, which is the absence of love, the rejection and denial of love. And The Beautiful is the great works of art, music, literature, architecture, and indeed God's own creation, sunset, sunrises, which are present to all generations and are a mark of the amago day in us, the image of God, we as sub-creators, like God as creators. So there are three threads, The Good, The Bad and The Beautiful. Joseph Pierce, joining us here at The Frontline with Joe and Joe, we're discussing his new book, The Good, The Bad, The Beautiful, History and Three Dimensions. That's available at Ignatius Press. Please also go on Joseph's website, jpears.co, jpears, P-E-A-R-C-E.co and sign up there. I'm sure Joseph, people can put in their email and get updated is what you have going on, am I correct? - Yeah, it's the best one-stop place for all that I'm doing. I post the podcast every week. So again, they should check it out. - All right, absolutely fabulous. Joseph, let me ask you this, just only because it triggered a thought in my mind. The modern world, with all its secularism, its atheism, let's stay on beautiful for a second, 'cause you mentioned the art and architecture that quite frankly is unparalleled in all of human history. I don't care what anybody says, okay, I don't. I recently was in awe just by, because I was, happened to be scrolling online and it was a picture of the Cologne Cathedral, which every time I look at, I'm literally mesmerized. Okay, and then I recently saw, like I think it's in Paris where they have their tribute to reason. They have a box, like a square or something along those lines. I forgot what it's called. Talk about the modern world and it's, and I think that that's ugliness. See, if you're just gonna produce a square and say, well, it's a product of reason, it's a square, it's symmetrical and I say, okay, but there's nothing particularly beautiful about it, whereas if you go down the block to Notre Dame Cathedral, I think you're gonna see a whole lot of beauty. Talk about the emptiness of the modern world when it comes to beauty, 'cause Joseph, quite frankly, I don't see a lot of it. No, and you're correct, where there's the absence of the good, in other words, where there's the bad, they will always be the ugly. They go hand in hand, hand in glove. My book was inspired and I quoted in the prologue at the beginning, why some words have been at the 16th, when he said that ultimately the only defense for the Catholic church are the saints that she's nurtured and the great works are art and beauty that she's inspired. So basically, the presence of beauty is shining forth the presence of goodness and of course, the presence of goodness is the presence of God. So if you don't have that, you have the real absence of God instead of his real presence, you're left with nothing but the viciousness of the vacuum. And that's where we are now, the ugliness, which is the absence of beauty. Just as evil is the absence of good, ugliness is the absence of beauty. - Yeah, and if I personally think, I mean, this is one of the reasons, Joseph White, Joe and I, even do this show at the front line with Joe and Joe, if you can't see the ugliness out there, you're blind, my friend, you're absolutely blind, 'cause when man turns away from God and to himself, well, we're talking about history here with Joseph Pierce. You get some of the real low points in history, which I'm sure we're gonna get into. Joe Restonello, where do you wanna go? - Well, you mentioned Benedict the 16th and I quote him often on this podcast, basically saying the only real people who changed the world are saints. You also mentioned art, and I think that's another important thing to note because if you really look at history, what has lasted? Like if you talk to say, I don't know, a 17 year old, even an astute 17 year old, and you said, who was the 24th president of the United States? They wouldn't know. Yet at that time, that person was pretty important. Would they know who George Harrison is? George Harrison was pretty big, probably not. Do they know who St. Francis is? Well, if they don't know who he is, his name is on a building in the town he lives in, do they know who Shakespeare is? Well, a lot of people know who Shakespeare is, they're still reading his place. Those are the things that last, and if you ask me if we truly want to leave our mark, so many people want to achieve in this world, rightfully, be a saint, that is how we do it. Talk about that, Benedict nailed it perfectly. You nailed it as well by throwing in the artist because that's what lasts. Yes, exactly, and you mentioned Pope Benedict, always good to mention him. C.S. Lewis said something similar. He said the basically, "If you want to change the world "become a saint." He said, "Those people who think about the world first "do not make the world a better place. "Those people who keep their lives on heaven "make the world a better place." So you actually get, if you aim for heaven, you get the world thrown in. In other words, the world becomes a better place because you're aiming for heaven. When you cease to aim for heaven, you make the world a worse place, and that's the whole point, is that without history, we're either making the world a better place by following Christ or you're making a worse place by either following Caesar or Judas. In other words, either being putting the world first and the power of the world first, or being a traitor, a heretic, somebody corrupt within the church, like a Judas' scary figure. So history, the whole template of history is laid out in the gospel. Basically, those who follow Christ must take up their cross, they must expect to be persecuted as Christ was persecuted. And against that, you have Caesar and you have Judas. And in every generation, we have the secular power, which is normally persecuting the church, and then we have corruption within the church, the Judas within the church. So that's a pattern that plays itself out in every one of the 20 centuries we've had since the time of Christ. - Job, so I wanna just touch on that, 'cause you mentioned this in your epilogue of the book about Judas. You say, time is the battlefield. We choose to be a warrior in the church militant, or else we default. We become a Judas figure who serves the Lord of the world. You know, this is important, two points, and then I'm gonna turn it over to both of you and please have at it. We have to be in the church militant. We're all called to be in the church militant. That is absolutely a part of our faith and it's lacking. But you mentioned the Judas figure, and I wanna expand on that, 'cause I recently commented on what Judas was, and I'm interested in both your thoughts. Judas betrayed Christ with a kiss. He loved Jesus Christ, but why did he betray him? He lost faith in his method. You see, I believe that's what we're seeing even within our church. We are losing faith in the man who came in humble, on a donkey, the suffering servant, and we think we have the answer. That's the scene of Judas, in my opinion. He loved him, but he lost faith in him as in you're not going to bring the kingdom of God on the earth, and I betray you. What are your thoughts on that? Because that's what I think the sin was. That's what's being played out today. We're losing faith in the institution of the church. We should never lose faith in the institution of the church. - Absolutely, I agree, couldn't agree with you more, and they say the two ways of betraying Christ, we can betray him with a curse, as the world does, we can trap, trap, betray him with a kiss, as the Judas within the church does. Both are betrayals, and arguably, the betrayal of the kiss is worse than a betrayal of the curse. Now, the enemy who pretends to be your friend is the traitor, right? The enemy who knows he's your enemy and declares himself your enemy is not a traitor, he's your enemy. So that's something that pays itself out. You mentioned about having faith in the suffering servant Jesus Christ. We also need to remember, as he promised, he is with us in his real presence in the blessed sacrament at all times. And if we don't have faith in his real presence during the holy sacrifice of the Mass, and in the tabernacle, then we have actually already acted as the Judas. We've already betrayed him with the kiss because we're not actually following him in the manner in which he told us to, the man not there, by the way, was an unintentional con. - My quick comment on that is Joseph, I think, was it Russell Kirk, who said don't immunitize the escaton? I think it was Russell Kirk, and for those of you out there, it's just basically it's what we're talking about. I think the mistake of human beings is that we turn away from God and think we're going to create heaven on earth. The paradox is, is that those who, probably Joseph, many of whom, not all, of course, and we'll get into some of those characters, are not all of whom are well-intentioned, but many of those people who are well-intentioned really think, thought and think, that you can create heaven on earth. And the paradox is that view, that turning away from God, thinking you're going to actually accomplish that, has led to more suffering and misery and death. I mean, all you have to do is look at a history of the 20th century. I would recommend anybody go read Paul Johnson's history modern times, if you want to see a history of the 20th century, okay, or the black book of communism, another good book to read if you want to see that misery. So it's got, it's a paradox, you want heaven on earth. I mean, you saw a lot of the French revolutionaries did too. Anyway, but let me segue Joseph from there, we're on history, you choose some historic points in crafting the book that we're talking about today, which is the good, the bad, and the beautiful history in three dimensions, available in Ignatius Press, please buy it from the publisher, or on Joseph's website, jpears.co. Talk about that, Joe, those pivotal points in history that you chose, and maybe why you chose them. - Well, the key thing is that the structure of the book, I've talked about the history of being a tapestry, interwoven tapestry, the good, the bad, and the beautiful. But I've also, what I've done is, I've had this one separate chapter for each of the 20th centuries. And the reason I've done that, in other words, I haven't picked out one particular time as being, this is especially good, or this is especially bad. Every century has these three threads weaving its way through them. So, what I'm hoping to show is that you could pick out, you know, put a blindfold on the phone at a dartboard, and you know, whatever centuries that lands on, you're gonna see the presence of the saints, you're gonna see the presence of worldly power. You see the presence of corruption and heresy within the church. And you're gonna see beautiful works of art, literature, architecture, music. So, this is present in every one of the 20th centuries. And one of the reasons I was motivated to write the book, Joe, was that we often fall into the progressive era, even if we think we're not progressives, that the progressives believe that we're moving towards a golden age in the future. You know, with science and technology, we'll usher in this sort of, this golden age where we won't have death, we won't have religion, we'll all live happily ever after on earth, right? And if we don't like that, you know, we might curse it, but many of us still believe it. We just think what they call heaven will be hell, right? But in actual fact, humanity's not gonna ascend into a golden age in the future. The only golden age in the future is heaven, if we get there, right? The whole of human history is gonna be woven with the good, the bad and the beautiful, and it's gonna be that same pattern in every single century. And if we don't realize that, then we are actually living a delusional life. - Yeah, I mean, I guess what humanity needs and has always needed, because we are talking about history with Joseph Pierce, is a good, solid dose of humility. To understand, you know, the way I heard it describes in kind of like street terms, what humility is, is saying to God, God, I know who you are, I know who I am, and I'm not you. If people maybe got that through their heads, maybe we would have what people want, which is about a world. If you look, if you're looking for a world without pain and suffering, it doesn't exist, it never existed, nor will it ever exist. We could only make do with what we have. If we turn to God, at least we could alleviate some of that pain itself. Perhaps Joseph Pierce, maybe we wouldn't inflict so much pain and suffering on our fellow man, okay? That would go a long way if you asked me. Joseph Rassinello. - As you said, Joseph, you picked, you know, a numerous points in history, and you highlighted them in the book. Was there ever a time where Christendom thrived? Now, clearly, there were better times than others, but it was never perfect. I could look at the United States, for example. Dan Leroy wrote a book on the Catholic faith in the United States. I mean, the United States was never a Catholic country, ever, ever. There have been better times, but we've constantly been up against it, and we've done pretty well. I mean, not for nothing, you know. Even like where I live, I work in New York City. There are masses going on constantly, no matter where I work in that city. I go to Daily Mass everywhere in the city. Confessions every day. Now, granted, there's problems going on, but there's a source of light. So many in the places in the world don't offer that. God is working even amongst this darkness. We lose sight of that, frankly, but talk about that. Like, 'cause I think a lot of people, particularly in the Catholic blogosphere, everybody's talking about creating Christendom. I don't think that's gonna happen. I think we could do better, but I don't think that's ever really going to happen, or even realistic. - No, there's some great questions you raised down. Maybe go to the last one first, and then I'll backtrack a bit. Christendom, we need to know what Christendom is, and Christendom is not some sort of golden age in the past. For instance, there is a book written by a historian called Walsh, back in amount of time of World War II. It was called The Greatest of Centuries, and it's the 13th century, right? The High Middle Ages, right? I'm gonna talk about that in just a moment. Now, Christendom is not the golden age in the past. Any more than a progressive have their golden age in the future. Christendom is the city of God, as distinct from the city of man. So Christendom begins with Christ and continues in his mystical body. The city of God ultimately is the church triumphant in heaven. But while time exists, we have our own very short, very brief tour of active service, active duty. In the church medicine, the church of war in enemy territory, which is the world, the city of man, and we have to bring the city of God to the city of man. And we do that as warriors, as Christian warriors. Everybody in every generation that does that is a member of Christendom, a part of Christendom. The Catholic Church as the church military is Christendom in time. So it doesn't belong to any one period, either in the past or the present or the future, it belongs to all time in Christ. That's the key thing. And very, very briefly on that, we are what's the best of centuries, the worst of centuries. The best, the 13th, right? Yeah, Gothic architecture. You mentioned colon cathedral. These beautiful edifices rising to the skies in glory, giving glory to God, right? We have the founding of the Franciscans and the Dominicans in that century. We have the rise of the scholastics, the opening of the universities of Thomas Aquinas and Boniface and Albert the Great. Yeah, it's a great century. But in the same century, we have the Crusades. We have the sacking of Constantinople by so-called Christians. We have the besieging of Christian cities by Crusaders and the looting and pillaging of Christian cities by Crusaders. So we have all of that going on. And what happens immediately after the 13th century? It's such a wonderful time. Early part of the 14th century, there were three people claiming to be pope at the same time. I mean, you want a mess? That's a mess, right? So, you know, we have to understand that, yes, there's the good, there's the great saints. Saint Thomas Aquinas, Saint Francis, Saint Dominic, Saint Albert the Great. There's the beautiful Gothic architecture that there's also the bad and the wicked, both outside the church and inside the church. And of course, the wise of Islam as well, you're going on at the same time then. - What did Jesus say also? Joseph Pierce, when asked about the wheat and the tears, said, "Let them grow together." I'll pull it all out at the end. I mean, that requires the faith that Joe Rasonello might mentioned earlier. - Look, Joseph, sometimes I get down, I'm not going to lie, I get down, I look at the state of the world, I look at it. Now again, like you said, I might have had the same view if I lived in the 14th century. Okay, really what a bad time. Three popes you kidding me? The world's coming to an end, okay? The wheat and the tears are going to grow together. You have no control of it. Christ tells you that, let it grow, okay? I'll rip it out at the end, I'll separate the two. We need to make sure that we're the wheat. I mean, really, that's what it comes down to. You guys are talking about saints. You're talking about being a positive influence. You reminded me, you mentioned, you made a war as an analogy, Joseph. Reminds me of the Pink Floyd song, "Wish You Were Here." When the lion is, would you exchange a walk-on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? To me, like the world offers the cage. I'll take the walk-on part at the front line with Joe and Joe and we get Joseph Pierce on the show once every six months. All right, I'll take that walk-on part any day of the week, okay, in the war that we're fighting, the spiritual battle that the catechism says is all of human history, okay? And I'm glad that you're letting our audience end Joe and I, you're reminding us that good in the bed and the beautiful, the title of your book, it's there all the time. All the time, Joseph, could you give me some comments on that a couple of minutes before the break? - Yeah, well, I'm again. So, for instance, you asked me what my favorite centuries were. I mean, the same tapestry, it's not the ones better or worse. But my favorites are unexpected. I love the 16th century. And you think the 16th century is awful because it's the Protestant macho, right? The so-called Reformation. The last class of Christendom breaking off from the church. It's a bad time, but the Protestant Reformation led to the Catholic so-called counting Reformation, the Council of Trent, the founding of the Jesuits, the discouse Carmelites, the 20s of Abilah, Saint John of the Cross. We have this great renewal in the church. We have the great art, the great music, and that kind of the great polyphony from that time. And the 19th century, the end of the 18th century, French Revolution, absolutist monarchs, persecuting the church, a weak pope who's imprisoned by Napoleon. The previous pope actually disbanded the Jesuits who were the only fighting part of the church left. It's all over, 1800, it's all over. The 19th century is a time of revival, a time of renewal. By the end of the 19th century, you have the Catholic number of Catholics and Americans are a virgin, the number of Catholics in the UK, which has been almost wiped out after three centuries of persecution, is burgeoning. So, you know, these so-called bad centuries are actually not as bad as we might think they were. No, which is funny because, again, we were just talking about it, okay, if you found yourself in 16th century England and you were a Catholic, I mentioned before the show, I just got done recently reading Joseph Pierce's other book, which I would absolutely recommend everybody by a history of true England, okay, the faith of our fathers, a history of true England. Joseph, if I found myself as a Catholic at the time of Henry VIII or Good Queen Bess, okay, I would have thought the world's coming to an end. Jesus is coming back, okay? And I think about that all the time, I mentioned to my wife, as I look, I don't know when Christ is coming back and he even says, nobody knows, okay, except the Father and Heaven. But I do comment that, well, if he came back now, I wouldn't be shocked. But I could have said that if I was living in early 19th century France as a Catholic or 16th century England. And it's good to remind people of that because what it does is, and as you said, the renewal, I mean, again, I read when you were talking about the rebirth in England, the resurgence of Catholic literature, when you went through all the authors right up through into the 20th century. It's inspiring because you have to remember, particularly as Catholics, when there's a low point, get ready for the resurgence. And it's happened over and over again. God will raise up those things. Joseph, real quick, before we go to the break, remind everybody the title of the book, your website, any social media, and then we'll take a quick break and we'll come back. - Yeah, so the new book is called The Good, the Bad and the Beautiful, History in Three Dimensions published by Ignatius Press and as you might say, either directly from the publisher Ignatius.com or get it via my website, jps.co. And that's the one stop for everything I'm doing when I'm writing podcasts on recording, jps.co. - Absolutely, and also, you know, we recommend everybody to, you know, if you're watching this video on social media, particularly on Rumble and Twitter, share it. This is a great conversation, not because it's Joe and I, because we have the third Joe here, Joseph Pierce, who's enlightening us, tremendously on history, the good, the bad and the beautiful. So stick around, we have another great segment with Joseph Pierce on the Veritas Catholic Radio Network, 1350 on your AM dial, 103.9 on your FM dial, spreading the truth of the Catholic faith in the New York City metropolitan area. Don't go anywhere, we'll be right back. - Catholic Radio works, and now we have it here in Connecticut and New York. It's been seen around the country that there's no better tool for evangelization, where there's Catholic Radio, the folks who listen deep in their faith, families are strengthened, perishes and communities flourish. So, let people know you're listening to Veritas, tell your friends to tune in, and let's make an impact here for Jesus and his church. This is Steve Lee for Veritas Catholic Network. - Welcome back everyone to the front line with Joe and Joe, Joe Piscillo and Joe Recello, and we are way in the breach with Joseph Pierce, and we are discussing his new book, The Good, The Bad and the Beautiful. History in three dimensions that's available, at Ignatius Press, it's also available, along with all of Joseph's material, at jpears.co, jpears.co, Joe Recinello, where do you wanna go? - I wanna carry over what we were discussing about the 16th century and the 18th century going into the 19th, obviously 16th century, Protestant, you know, Reformation, 18th century French Revolution, Bad Times, Dark Times, but grace abounds in darkness. And that's happening now. There's a lot of darkness. There's trouble in the church. There's trouble politically speaking. Western civilization, one can argue, is declining. Globalism is crushing regular people with regard to green energy models that people can't afford, regular normal people. However, grace abounds, because God did not leave us orphaned. Again, it goes back to the sin of Judas. I think we focus on the darkness, and you don't do that a lot, and I gotta give you credit for that, because there's a lot of Catholic podcasters, and I never mention names that's not what I'm about. We can't just focus on the darkness. We have to focus on the fact that Christ did not leave us orphaned, and then what do we do? And this is what I do. And then I'd like your comments, first principles. First principles, rosary every day. Fast for the world and the church. Read the scripture, confession, adoration, receiving the Eucharist in a state of grace. There are the principles. That is how we shine. That is how we conquer your thoughts, Joseph Pierce. - Yeah, that's how we change the world for the better, but by either becoming saints or at least trying to become saints. And of course, we don't become a saint unless you try to become a saint. That's the process by which you do it. So I don't focus on the darkness, and then we don't focus on the darkness, is because I've got my eyes on the finishing line. And the finishing line is when I die, that's the end of the world. The only end of the world that should be any of us is the end of our mortal life, which could be tomorrow. And if we are in a state of grace, when that finishing line hits us, 'cause we don't necessarily know where we're gonna get there, we will go to heaven, right? We will transition from the church militant, the church of war to the church triumphant, maybe via the church suffering, which is absolutely fine. That's a one-way street. So that's why I don't focus on the darkness, because the darkness has already been defeated. And I think if we spend too much time in the dark and moaning about the dark, we become dark. We are in danger of actually becoming corrupt ourselves, because we begin to believe that even it's gonna triumph, that the church doesn't really have the goodness and truth, which he says she has, that really Satan is more powerful. And we end up getting close to despair, which is why, by the way, Joe, that I always say that the one place we should not follow in the footsteps of Jesus Christ is in turning over the tables in the temple. Now, he has righteous anger and heavy right to be angry. But he can do it with charity, right? Most of us, if we allow anger to take root in our hearts, very quickly, charity is compromised. And if we no longer have love in our hearts, we're on the losing side. Doesn't matter if we're saying the right thing. So that's the very, very thing. Is if you find yourself getting angry, look somewhere else, do something else, most importantly, look up to the heavens. - One thing I would say is this, and again, guilty is charged, Joseph Pierce, because that's exactly what I'm fighting against personally. I don't mind telling you guys, we're telling our audience. I fight against that personally. The anger builds up in my heart, and I have to take a step back and say, I don't want that. I don't want to allow the evil in the world to chase out the love in my heart. Okay, and again, and again, and anybody could fall victim to that. And yes, you become a victim of that if you, because you allow the darkness to grow. I want to make a comment, and then I want to ask you a question. The comment is this, in times of darkness, okay, I would have imagined that if you lived around Sodom and Gomorrah at that time, okay, it was pretty dark place, okay. And Abraham asked the Lord, will you destroy those towns? If you could find, and you know the story, 50 or 40 or 30 or 10. Joe mentioned New York City earlier. There's hundreds of thousands of beautiful, wonderful people in New York City, okay, that we all know. There are churches all over New York City. Yeah, it's a dark place, 'cause the majority of the people vote for the idiots that they put in charge of the place, okay. But the bottom line is, there are many more than 10 people in New York City. There's a great light, I'm using that as an example, Joseph Pierce. There's a great light in New York City, particularly amongst Roman Catholics, whether it's Manhattan or the Outer Boroughs. And I'm just using that as an example of, you know, you'll find the beauty. You know you're gonna find the ugliness. You know you're gonna find the bad. But if you're looking for the good and the beautiful, look a little bit more closely, get your face out of Fox News and MSNBC. And I promise you, you'll find the good and the beautiful. Joseph, I'd love a comment on that if you don't mind. - Yeah, and if you don't mind with two things, I'd say, first of all, one of the main motivations for my writing my book, "The Good, the Bad and the Beautiful" was so that people can see that the dark is always with us, right, until the end of time. The only place where there was not darkness is heaven, right? Don't look for a place without darkness down here, you ain't gonna find it. So that's the first thing. Every century has this darkness present and the saints as candles in the dark and the works of the beautiful works of art and literature are candles in the dark. But what I want to talk about, as literature, you know, you talk about MSNBC, Fox News, et cetera, these places of anger. That in the Lord of the Rings, there's something called a Palantir stone, a seeing stone. And when you look into that stone, you see what the dominant will that controls the stone wants you to see. There's a character in the Lord of the Rings called Denathor. He spends too much time looking in that stone, getting the propaganda from the enemy, from the dark forces. And in the end, he despairs. He believes Satan is so powerful that he can't be defeated. There's no point even trying to fight for the survival of your own country, your own city, your own civilization, because it you doomed. And he commits suicide, right? So that's a lesson. And this also shows how literature can convey very powerful lessons to us. We've really spent too much time staring into the dark, staring into the propaganda machine and hearing its lies and its deceptions. No, we are in danger of despairing. And if we despair, we are on the wrong side. We're on the losing side. Joseph, let me, Joseph. If you don't mind, I want to stay there for a second again, because Joseph, you mentioned the artists. Let's stay on artists for a moment, okay? I find modern art to be particularly ugly. I think I've seen enough of it, either more recent art in my lifetime or immediately preceding my lifetime. When I think of that, and I'm not bad mouthing the guy, I think of like Jackson Pollock, okay? He's like art without form seemingly without rules. You can let him, and that's actually great art compared to some of the garbage that's in Momo right now and other places, okay? I'm sorry, Joseph. I don't have to be an art critic. I don't even have to know much about art to believe my eyes, that when I look up, and I've been in the Sistine Chapel as we all have been, when I look up and I see the creation as painted by Michelangelo. And I then compare that to a Jackson Pollock painting, okay? One I see absolute beauty, the other one I see formlessness. I won't even call it ugly. I'll just see lack of form, lack of truth, no pursuit of anything that's transcended whatsoever. The artists that I know you love to mention, particularly literary artists in the late 19th century, and then into the 20, Elliot Tolkien, and many, many manly Hopkins and all these people. Talk about the role of the artists, 'cause I think a lot of people overlook what the true role of the artists is. Please enlighten us, us, and our audience. What in your view is the true role of the artist and how the artist contributes to the rebirth and the beautiful? - Well, maybe I'd just do it by way of telling a quick story if I can, a parable, that's what Jesus would do. So we're gonna have a two-minute parable to answer your question. Once upon a time, there was a rock, and it was a very beautiful rock, but nobody had ever seen it because it was buried under the ground. It'd been there for millions of years, hidden, but it was beautiful. Then someone dug the rock up, and now it could be seen. Some people said, "That's actually quite a beautiful rock." Then one person came along and said, "That's not a beautiful rock." That is the beautiful rock. And he took that rock away and he started doing things with it. And today, if we go to St. Peter's Basilica, and we go through the main entrance to St. Peter's Basilica in Rome, and we look to the right, to the first side chapel on the right, we will see Michelangelo's Pieter with the mother of God cradling her crucified son in her arms. And that's what that person Michelangelo did with that rock. And every time someone goes into that church, St. Peter's Basilica, and they see that statue, their hearts and minds are lifted up, edified by the beauty of what they're seeing, by the story it's telling. And the definition of prayer is to lifting up the mind and the heart to God. Even an atheist, if it's got eyes to see, we'll see that heart sometimes, we lift it up. They'll be moved in the right direction. That's the power of great art. That's the power of beauty. - Joseph Pierce is joining us here at the front line with Joe and Joe. I'm blown away by this conversation, Joseph Pierce. I'm so, because a good conversation, especially like this and your book, please everybody go out and buy the book, The Good, The Bad, and The Beautiful History in three dimensions, it's available at IgnatiusPress, it's available at jpears.co. And we also encourage everyone to go to jpears.co because then you'll have access to all of what Joseph is doing. Because these conversations, Joseph, ideas are real. Okay, and I think that, you know, sometimes people think that when you're a writer, like you are a creator, or you're just discussing ideas that somehow, you know, they're not important as like, kids, we gotta get, you know, ideas are real and they stimulate other really good ideas, hopefully beautiful ideas, and hopefully we implement those ideas in our lives and in our culture. I just wanted to say that. I don't even know if that was a ramble or not, because like I said, conversations like this just blow me away. Joe Ressinello, where do you wanna go? - I wanna circle back to that statement you made about despair. I think it was a great example. I never really picked that up in Lord of the Rings because I think too many people are in that state now. I could find myself there sometimes too. And then I have to think about the reformers, Catherine of Sienna, Teresa of Avila. - Well, they renewed, and this is the question basically. We don't reform what is perfect, and the church is perfect. We renew it, and this is what we have to do. And I think when we try to do it ourself, which people have done, I found myself doing that. You bang your head against the wall, because that's not for me to do. What I have to do is to reveal that rock, that beautiful rock that is there, it's not mine. I just have to polish it up a little bit, renew it, and there lies the answer. We cannot reform what is perfect. We must renew it. And if we do that, we don't get frustrated. We don't fall into despair, and we conquer the ban with the beautiful. What do you think? - I couldn't agree more. And you're talking about some of the great saints, in mention Teresa of Avila. You know, I think about how did she renew the church by insisting that the corruption in her order, the Carmelites need to be renewed by the embrace of suffering, the disgust. They remove their shoes. In other words, that we needed to actually take up the cross. Renewal is the embrace of suffering. And of course, Teresa of Avila's great ally, St. John of the Cross, was actually imprisoned in solitary confinement in hideous circumstances by his own religious order. You know, the corruption in the Carmelites at the time, they actually, because he wanted to follow some Teresa of Avila, and the renewal of the discounts, Carmelites, that they actually imprisoned him. And they didn't let him go. He escaped. So, again, the badness, the darkness is within people, they're in the church. And this is the other important thing. You're completely correct. We have to, when we talk about the church, what is the church? The church is the mystical body of Jesus Christ, all right? So in that sense, and the bride of Christ, it's a mystical marriage, one flesh, both the mystical body of Christ and the bride of Christ at one of the same time. That's perfect, but the individual human members of it are anything but perfect. Now, which is why in many ways, you know, that the disease within the body, the heresy, the corruption, the treachery, that is what weakens the body of Christ. But only the mystical body of Christ in time, only the church militant, doesn't and cannot weaken the church triumphant ever. And obviously, we know that the gates of hell will not prevail because we've been told as much. But what we have to worry about, the gates of hell can prevail against us. They can't prevail against the church. But if we succumb to despair, which is a mortal sin and embrace the darkness of hopelessness instead of the resurrection, then we are indeed, the gates of hell can prevail against us as individuals. We have to learn how God against that. And this only through the grace that comes through the sacraments and the humility to accept the embrace. That saves us from that darkness. - 'Cause you talked about John of the Cross. He permitted himself basically to be eaten alive. And you see, this is where, like, in a sense, and that's the cross. I think, not only, and goes back to what I said in the beginning with harden, and this is something I've been focusing on as a father of five and in my life, I know a lot of the right answers. If you gave me a test on being Catholic, I'd probably score pretty high, but that doesn't mean I execute it. I have to die the death of a white martyr. That is what I have to do. But I think that is how we're gonna make this happen. We have to be willing to completely die to ourself. And the only way we can do that is the sacraments. It's Christ tells us in scripture, for a good man to die for another, maybe you could find the strength to do it, but for a sinner, we can't do that. Peter couldn't stand up to the crowd. He witnessed Christ transfigured, and he still couldn't find the strength to do it. But that's why we have to embrace a sacramental life. Basting, prayer. It's the iceberg underneath the tip of what people see. If we focus on that, the power that will come through our lives will shake the foundation of the globe. And do we believe it? And if we do, we have to dig in deep. What do you guys think? Because I think that's what I've been trying to focus on a lot more frankly, in my own life. How I reject the dying to sell. I have to embrace it. - Oh man, absolutely agree. And that dying to self is a daily adventure. So every morning we are resurrected, we wake up, and we have a new life. And we have to lay down that life in that particular day. And if at the end of that day, when we lie down to die, to go to sleep, know that we have actually been good and faithful servants, we have led not only ourselves closer to Christ through his grace, but others. Everybody that we've touched that day is closer to Christ because we have laid down our lives for them. So every morning, wake up and lay down your life that day. And some days of course, you won't do it maybe won't do very well, in which case, say a few prayers, seek forgiveness, go to sleep, wake up in the morning, and get at it again. - That's right, get up and get out there. My comment would be this. You know, we're now in 2024, we're in an election year. Again, I have what I would hope would happen in the election at the end of the day, after the day, after the election, whether it's win, lose, or draw in the political realm, what am I supposed to do? Wake up and cry the next day? And I say that because I met people in my life. We have cried over political outcomes. You wanna talk about an empty life. And again, I don't wanna be so harsh or so critical. But because you're not, let's say for argument sake, recognizing the good or the beautiful, that you put your hope as, you know, like I'm just, it was triggered to think this based on what you guys were saying. You put your hope in an election, or something in the world. Notice if our worst enemy's got elected, Joseph Pierce, let me ask you this. Are they gonna be any worse than Nero? Are they gonna be any worse than Joseph Stalin? Okay, the church survived both those guys and many in between. Okay, I might have to die. Okay, that's right. Joe and I say all the time, maybe not so jokingly. If they bring back the guillotine, they might take Joe and I and bring us right in the middle of the Times Square. I don't know, I don't know, okay? But I'm gonna let an election get me down. I'm gonna let, and people say, well, how do I die to myself? Maybe stop embracing the world. Maybe get married if you're a single man. Maybe have children. You wanna built in sacrifice, have kids. Here's your built in sacrifice. Get married, have to sacrifice for your wife. As you said, Joseph Pierce, wake up every day and you have no choice but to live for the other. Even if you're a lazy bones like me, you have no choice but to live for the other when you have a wife and you have children. Talk about that because some people, Joseph might think in their mind, well, how do I find my suffering every day? Get married, have kids. You will give of yourself that love that's needed to help you to transcend all the nonsense in the world. Joseph, I love your comments on that. - Yeah, well, certainly for most of us, in fact, all of us, when we start getting mystical, but let's not do that just yet. For most of us, the means by which we grow in holiness is through the Holy Sacrament of Marriage and Parenting because the only way that you can have a marriage that's going to work is to lay down your life for your beloved, for your wife and for your other beloveds, your children, right? And the more you do that, the better the family's gonna be, they're gonna be happier, you're gonna be happier. So this is the paradox that when you actually take up your cross and lay down your life for others, you become happy yourself and make everybody else happier. The cross is the key to happiness. It's not something that makes you unhappy. The more selfish you are, the more you refuse the cross. First of all, if you refuse the cross, you still get it, right? Those who try to avoid suffering do not succeed, right? They become more miserable. They may become an addict. They're addicted to whatever's said, right? Whatever drug, right? An addict is a slave, right? So we have to really choose to take up our cross in order to be happy. That's the paradox. And that's the paradox that Joe and I, if you're just joining us here at the front line with Joe and Joe, Joe Priscilla, Joe Sandolo with Joseph Pierce, that's the paradox that Joe and I try to point out Joseph Pierce on the show all the time, is that the world offers you freedom, which is slavery. If you are sexually liberated and that's the focus of your life, you're a slave. Whether it be the pornography, whether it be the prostitution, whether it be to the hookup culture, whether you are the slave. And the same people that are enslaving you are telling you if you listen to that big, bad Catholic church, that Catholic church is looking to enslave you yet again, paradoxically, no, when you play by the rules and the others rules in life, you are actually free. There is no beauty without rules. It's just the way it is. There is none, it's chaos. Joe, please talk about that real quick because I think people think that you can get through life without rules, but you can't achieve anything great without some boundaries. I don't care if it's a game like baseball, okay? Or if it's just life in general. If you think there are no rules, you need to think again. Talk about that, Joseph, please. - Yeah, well, again, couldn't agree with you more and the baseball analogy is a very good one. You know, we don't have rules to the game. We don't have the game, right? You have to obey rules for it to happen. Same thing with life. If we actually want true freedom, we have to take up our class because only by growing in virtue that we actually attain the happiness, even this side of the grave that Christ promises. So in other words, the sacrifice is the necessary prerequisite for happiness. If we refuse the sacrifice, we become even more miserable than we would have been. There's no escape from it. So you're absolutely spot on. I'm gonna say a couple of things about that. Chesterton says that the rules of the church or the rules of the playground, he says, imagine, imagine there's a playground on top of a cliff and all the way around this is precipice dropping down, right? If there's no fences, just before the precipice, everybody huddles in the middle and is too scared to go near the edge because they might fall off. When you've got the fence up, everybody can play freely. The whole thing becomes a free playground because you're not gonna fall over the edge because you know where it is and there's a fence that you're not gonna climb over and fall off. So that's... And the other very good Chesterton said about Macbeth, about the character of Macbeth. He says, when we try to live a sinful life and claim freedom by self-deification, which Macbeth does, now we're gonna do what we like, right? You should just don't break out of yourself. You break in and basically you're going into a smaller and smaller and a smaller and smaller room. The only thing that's left at the end is yourself and your golemised shrunken shriveled self because you grow by communing with others, communicating, loving, whether the less you do that, you have nothing but your own egocentric self. And it's a really shriveled pathetic thing, which could, this should be much larger because it's out there loving others. - Joe, by the way, just to let you know, I'm stealing, I'm not borrowing that from you. I'm stealing it from you, okay? The word golemised, okay? So it's got, what did Eliot say? He said, he said, "Bad artists imitate, great artists steal." I'm stealing that from you, okay? Joe Recinello, we only have about three minutes left for Joseph Pierce. - Joseph, where do you see this going? I mean, you basically write about history. History often repeats itself. Western civilization is going in a particular direction. The 21st century has begun. It's not off to a great start. If you ask me, where do you see this going? And ultimately, how do we conquer it? - Well, again, first we have to see things in context. And there's two ways we have to see in context, temporally and eternally. As you guys, temporally, we're now in 2024. 100 years ago, we'd just gone through World War I, which was a cataclysm. We were already that the fascists had just come to power in Italy, and the Soviet communists had just come to power in Russia. Within two decades, we'd have World War II, we'd have carpet bombing, we'd have blitzkrieg, we'd have poison gas, we'd have nuclear bombs, all right? So yeah, the 21st century has not got off to a great start. But the 20th century was not great either. So we need to see history, so we need to see our own times in the context of history as a whole. And particularly in the context of that 33 years of history, which is the life of Jesus, the gospel, which is the template, the pattern, which shows everything else. As you guys, eternity, we have to always remember, right? That there's no for God, there's no past, and there's no future. God's omnipresence doesn't mean primarily that he's present everywhere, which he is, of course. It means everything is present to him. The whole of the human story, which we call history, is his story, history is his story. It's in his hands, there's a gospel song. I don't know what the future holds, but I know who holds the future. And it's not who will hold the future, no, who holds the future. And that the future of the world is one thing, our own personal future is gonna last longer than the world. It's gonna last forever, right? The world won't. So we have to keep our eyes on heaven, cross that finishing line, and enter the glory of God's presence for eternity. That's what history is really about is getting there. Joseph Pierce, this has been a fascinating conversation. And we want to thank you so much. We encourage everybody who's listening to us and who's on the Veritas Catholic Radio Network, anybody who's listening to us on social media or watching this on social media, please go out and buy Joseph's book. Now, two primary places that you're pleased by Ignatius Press or jpears.co, jpears.co. And there you can buy the book and Joseph's other books and read his articles and listen to his podcasts, okay? And that's something that you will definitely wanna do. First things first though, please go out and buy the book. Joseph Pierce, as always, you know you're welcome back on the front line with Joe and Joe. Thank you so much. Not only for sharing all these beautiful ideas with our audience, but also with Joe and myself. And obviously, you know, anytime you wanna have a conversation, you're welcome back here anytime. - Well, you both of you are a great, great fun, as well as speaking a lot of common sense and wisdom. You're good fun to be with. So I like the idea, not the three stooges, but the three Joes. We should do it again. - I love it. - We definitely will do it again. High praise indeed, coming from Joseph Pierce. Thank you all out there for joining us on the Veritas Catholic radio network, 1350 on your AM dial, 103.9 on your FM dial, spreading the truth of the Catholic faith to the New York City metropolitan area. Download the app, share it with your friends. You'll have access to all of our station's content. We are an EWTN affiliate, so you have that content and original programming and wherever you see Joe and I, as I asked earlier on social media, Twitter, Rumble, Facebook, and YouTube, until Facebook and YouTube take us down, of course. Like, subscribe, share, do all that fun stuff, help us out. And remember, until the next time that our conversation is your conversation and that conversation is going on everywhere. We'll talk to you soon. (upbeat music) (dramatic music)
