[music] Welcome back to a Sluts Guide to Happiness, where your body is perfectly imperfect and it's safe to be as sexual, kinky, queer, or slutty as you want. Today, I am super excited to be joined by a friend and long-time participant in Cliff Media Shoots, we're going to call him "D" today. And as per usual, he's much taller than me, but maybe a little bit taller than normal because he's going to keep his face out of it and I totally respect that we're all on different places in where we're at in our lives and how much we share our experiences and relationships to sexuality. So I really appreciate that he is joining us today and sharing his experiences even as he sits up on Pillow's way above me. [laughs] But I've always been impressed by the way that D shows up in social spaces. He's humble, self-respected, r- r- [laughs] [laughs] Five, four, three, two, one. I've always been impressed by the way that D shows up in social spaces. He's humble, self-reflective, respectful, and light-hearted. And that's why I'm so excited to get to talk with him about a subject I get asked about a lot online group sex. We'll cover what it's like when you're first exploring group sex, what kind of different group sex experiences are out there and how to find them, what it's like participating as a young single guy in particular, and how participating in group sex might affect other aspects of your personal life. So D, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. I know you shared with me, which I really appreciated, that you are brave taking off your clothes and camera lots of times, but in some ways this podcast feels even more vulnerable because you're sharing your feelings and personal experiences. And I feel that so much, that even in a sex-negative society, where taking off your clothes or having sex in front of other people is a big deal and a risk, an emotional and social risk, also being emotionally naked can sometimes be even harder and more vulnerable. So thank you for sharing this and taking the brave step to share it yourself with the world because I think that as we talk about being your authentic self, however that is, whoever you are, that creates powerful space for other people to be safe to be themselves in the world too. So I appreciate you. Let's dive in. I want to start with a no big deal, just the most awkward, most embarrassing experience that anyone ever has in group sex, which is the first time. So can you bring us into that moment? Get us juicy there. What was the event? How did you find it? How did you end up there? And what did you do when you got there? What did you see? What did it feel like? Well, thankfully it's not too juicy of an embarrassing story because it wasn't really that embarrassing, but it was still awkward to say the least. On "Fet Life", I've seen lots of people post for all these different types of events and I've thought about just what it might be like, but never really gone through it for a couple of years. And then one day, I don't remember the name of their group, they're always coming to Washington and so I'm like, I don't want to be here for this day. They'll come back next month, but I don't want to try it. So I reached out thinking, not really thinking too much of it until I started getting in my car and started driving. I think it was like an hour or two after the event started because I had classed that day and so I knocked on a door, but actually, let me go back to the back track. I got into the hotel, texted them for their room number and I'm like, wow, this is actually happening. I don't know how many people are actually going to be there. Did you have a little bit of feeling like maybe I should leave? Yes, but in just in case I wanted to go back, I didn't want to cancel and I didn't want to be unreliable. So I take the elevator, go up a few floors, find the room, but I'm spending a couple minutes there. I don't want to knock on the door yet, so I'm kind of pacing back and forth and knock on the door. The host lets me in, we say hi. He vets me real quick just to make sure I'm like the person that had contacted them initially. There's two rooms, the main room that was just mainly just for talking, socializing, some snacks, and in the back room, the other sex is already happening. I'm a young guy. I want to have sex, but I was a little shy about how does this go? Do I go back there? It's only, thankfully, only a few minutes go by and another attendee arrived. I believe almost instantly he asked the host, "Can we just go ahead and go back to her?" Then the host was like, "Yeah, go ahead." I'm like, "Alright, I'm a little shy, so this is it right here." So I asked, so we can just go ahead and he's like, "Yeah, you don't need a password, you don't need anything like that, go ahead." So I go in the back room following the person who had asked if we can go into the room, and there was, I don't know how many people, I want to say more than ten, and I don't know how many, mostly men, two female participants on the bed, I might have been in two beds, I'm not sure. Lots of naked people having sex, and so I'm just kind of observing. I took me a little bit, not too long, but a little bit before I even decided to take my clothes off, and then this is where I started thinking about body types, and I'm noticing all these different bodies, thinking about my own body, and then it took me a little bit, and I managed to get my clothes off finally, and then now after that, it still took me a little while to get hard. So, standing there, maybe there's some share, so I might have been sitting also, but then after a little bit, I believe if I remember correctly, there was a line of people taking turns with one or both of the ladies, and eventually I did have sex. I felt a little uncomfortable, thinking about all these people looking at me, thinking about the previous person that was just with this lady, but however many people that were already with her, not embarrassing, but definitely a lot of pressure. But after that, I'm still nervous this day, but I'm glad I did it. Do you know what makes me smile about that, Dean? When I go to group shoots, when I go to group sex things, even on or off camera, I am still nervous before I go. Right up until the sex is happening, and I'm engrossed in it, that nervousness doesn't quite go away, but I feel like one of the things that's beautiful about what you're describing is all these moments of possibility. Like, you're in the car, you could have gone home, you're in the lobby. Oh, what do I do? Oh, but I said I wasn't going to flake, could have gone home, but you decided to follow through and be reliable. You're like waiting in that first room, and I love that you were waiting for an invitation, waiting for a signal about what to do, because I think that when people, especially when guys are in doubt about whether to go ahead, like pausing and assessing the situation is always a good fall back when you're new. So it's beautiful, you did that, and then like, all of these moments, do I take my clothes off? Do I engage sexually? These are all moments of bravery to move past it towards the like, yes, I will explore an adventure. So how did you muster the courage in each of those moments? Like, how did you decide to keep going, especially, you know, as a young guy who's exploring this early in your sexual adventures? I think reliability, because they're like, they're a pretty popular group, and I knew I'd definitely, even if I didn't do it that day, I'd do it eventually. And, you know, I didn't want to miss out on the opportunity. And, well, also, I wanted to have sex. Yeah, totally. No, but yeah, and so I don't know, I just wanted to be, I think it was mostly, I just wanted to be reliable. They had an event, you know, a popular event going on, and, you know, message, text, saying, you know, I'll be there, and, you know, I want to be reliable. And it's interesting that you see that, because I think a lot of times I'll get messages from people that are like, I have hard abs and a 9-inch dick, and I'm like, that's cool. Can you show up on time? Can you get me ice tie forms? Can you send your ideas? Like, that's the thing that I'm actually interested in. And I think, like, it's one thing for a professional shoot. Like, I love that you're really reliable, but it's interesting and meaningful. I think that you're saying that even in groups, sex spaces that are just for play, because it's also, it's an interpersonal relationship in some ways, even if it's just that night. That people are trusting that you'll say that you'll show up and contribute to that group's sex space. And so part of participating is like a sense of care and responsibility to other people. Yeah. Yeah. So I want to take a little step back from diving into the depth of your thought process, that your emotional bravery, and just kind of give some ground work for people who are new to the scene. What, now, since that moment, I know that you've gone to a lot of events, some cliff media shoots on camera and a lot off camera. So what are the range of events, and can you help us kind of walk through the different words? So gang bangs, orgies, sex parties, those are all kind of different, right? So, I'm just having sex. I'm not 100% sure of how some most people would classify these, but I think of a gang bang as an event where there's lots of people, and there's limited interaction from certain individuals. So maybe there's like one or two women, for example, which is most of the defense that I've gone to, and they're having sex with a lot of the men that are going, whereas an orgie might be more where everybody's, or mostly people, everybody. I think of an orgie as more people interacting than in a gang bang. I see that, well, for a gang bang, there could be like some casual touching, for example, but-- You mean between the men? Yeah. I'm just using men as an example, like a straight event. Because there can be queer gang bangs, but a lot of what you're describing, kind of the dumbest thing on family, for example, are these straight gang bangs? Yeah. And even these queer gang bangs, from what I've only ever been to one, I think it'd still be the same thought process that I'm having that there's probably going to be a few people that sex is mainly happening with, and everyone else, not so much, a lot less interaction. Totally. Ganging up to bang on one of two people. Where as an orgie, a lot more interaction going on. And then sex party, I feel like gang bangs and orgies can be in a sex party. I feel like a sex party could be considered more of a private organization. It could be a private event that involves invitations, because they're-- Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, I feel like sex parties are basically just the actual event itself, while the gang bangs and orgies are activities that can happen at home. Can happen at a sex party. Because if you go on fat life, you can filter by sex party, but I feel like a lot of those are sex parties, and I feel like a sex party is more like, you can be more social in a sex party, you can like, you know, if there's not going to be just sex involved, there's going to be a little bit more. And it's not as structured. I know sometimes people will play with just one on one, as opposed to it's group sex in the sense that there's lots of people in the room, but they may not be all playing with each other. Yeah. And so you said that a lot of the things that you've gone to have been gang bangs. I know you have been to some orgies, because I've been in orgies with you. But, so what was it? Is it just that gang bangs are easier to find? Or was there something in particular that drew you towards them? I think they were easier to find. And yeah, it's real way easier to find the gang bangs. But then a lot of the, try to think of any orgies I've been to that were created by you. I guess, which I think you'll probably ask me about this maybe different events, but like lifestyle clubs, how they have, you know, they may have like a gang bang night, but different rooms, you know, different beds. If you want to scratch stuff, it's kind of wrong. Yeah. I think I don't particularly prefer gang bangs or orgies. It just feels like gang bangs are definitely like, they're just easier to find. And, well, I guess maybe I do prefer gang bangs. Some of the orgies that have been posted like I'm felt like they get pretty big from what I've seen. So, this is a lot of people. It can be overwhelming. Yeah. And also, like, the gang bangs. So, I think one of the things among many that you and I share in common is that we like group sex. And I like it for lots of reasons, but I know that people like different flavors of ice cream for different reasons. So, I would love to hear about what are some of the things on an emotional, social or sexual level that you get out of group sex? Like, why do you bother going? Well, for one, it is nice seeing a decent amount of people that are enjoying something that you do. Even it's just like, hey, obviously we're all here for sex, but actually seeing people interact actually at the event is great. There's some sense of, like, camaraderie or connection with the other guys there? Yeah, sometimes. Then also, like, if it's like maybe like a bigger event with a lot more people, more flavors of ice cream like you kind of just described. And it's nice to basically see, you know, different personalities, like, say, like, at some events at the beginning, describe the participants, like, nose and yeses, and then on a sexual level, it's hot seeing, like, hey, this person likes this, this person likes this. Or, hey, I'm turned on by the consent conversation too. Yeah, I know. So, yeah, even like, for example, I've been told a lot of your events and I have yet to hear you change any, like, your nose and yeses, even though I know what you're most likely, I assume I know what you're going to say, but I still like hearing it. So it's, you know, yeah, because people can change from day to day. Yeah. Yeah. Like you said, a variety of flavors that just seeing people enjoying something, feeling that enjoyment. I really feel what you were saying about seeing people with lots of different personalities, lots of body types, lots of different backgrounds and identities in group sex. I enjoy that not knowing in advance. Who's going to be here? What is it going to be like? What's the energy? What's the personality is going to be like? And one of the things that I wanted to ask you is the specific experience of being one of the younger people in some of the group sex spaces. And I think that in general, I've observed, especially at sex clubs or private parties or hosted parties or hotels, that there's tends to be the average age of people who are showing up to group sex tends to be higher than the average age in the general population. I can think of some hypotheses for this. One is that sometimes these spaces are kind of expensive. Like some hotel parties can charge $150 to get in and not all young adults have disposable income. And then I think the other thing is the truism that one of the joys of getting older is you give less facts about what other people think. And so being able to step outside the Box of Society tells you to stay in early in your life and say, "Actually, I want to just explore this part of myself, even though I haven't been told by society, it's okay." It's kind of an unusual thing for a younger adult to have decided to, that they're comfortable doing. So I'm interested in your experience. Like, how did you get to this place that you're interested in this early in your life? And how does it feel being one of the younger people in a room? I think social media technology just makes it a lot easier. Like I've been on a felt life since I was 18. And you're always seeing events posted, maybe not always gang bangs and stuff like that. But it's just so much easier to see these events being posted. So that's definitely one of the reasons why I started so young. How did you get out of felt life in the first place? I honestly couldn't tell you. I genuinely do not remember. Maybe I was just looking at kinky things and then felt life popped up. I clicked on it. And then this whole new world opened up. And how did you decide that it was okay to do it? How did you go through the emotional process of being like, "Oh yeah, I'm allowing myself to do this." For group checks? Yeah, yeah. For any participation in kinky stuff, group sex, all of that. Porn, you're not all over Pornhub. I guess maybe I have a few less fucks than some people. Because I still have some, definitely. You still feel nervous sometimes? But I guess I'll probably talk about this later, but I just want to enjoy myself. So in a way, I'm just like, "I don't really give a fuck." But as a younger person, I definitely have noticed that there are a lot of people older than me. I'm not always 100% sure, but it definitely feels like I'm the youngest person every time I go to any event. Do you mind if we share with the audience how old you are? 24. And so I started when I was, I went to my first gangbang when I was like 21, 22, and I felt like a baby there. I still sometimes, people were like, "You're a baby." I was like, "Please, duh, it feels kind of weird." But then I guess also, it's like body types. I feel like as a young person, you need to have rock-hard abs, have stamina. So, you feel like there's more social expectations that come attached to your age? Yes. Which can be intimidating? Sometimes. I still have days where I'm like, "I am not going to last very long," or, "You're looking at some bodies," and I'm like, "Uh, you feel kind of weird." But then sometimes, you know, I look around and I'm like, "It doesn't really matter that I'm younger, like the youngest person here." So, it feels kind of weird sometimes, but not too weird. Yeah. I love that you're sharing that because I have never experienced your presence there as anything different from what everyone else is bringing in terms of like... Other than saying that you're reliable and kind of respectful to the people around you, which regardless of your age, regardless of who you are, those are beautiful things to bring to a group sex environment. And so, I think about any of the insecurities that we bring about, "Oh, I'm too fat, my dick is too small, my booze is too small, my whatever, whatever, I don't last that long." That's often so much in our heads, and the joy that you bring is the most beautiful thing. I wanted to ask, because so I do a lot of talking with folks online who are connected with me and want to do counseling or just general conversations about their exploration with non-traditional sexuality. And one of the things I've heard from a couple people is that it was a surprise to me, but that group sex spaces were actually helpful because it was their first sexual experience, which that is a level of bravery that I feel really... Impressed by, like you have never had sex and then you have sex in a room full of people. But so I want to ask you a few really personal questions, if that's okay, feel free to say no, just like in sex, like any time, because that's important. Did you have sex before your first group sex? Yes, I did. Okay. And can you tell us about some of the differences? Like, is personal sex and group sex the same? How's it same and different? Mm-hmm. I feel like with more personal sex, well I guess it kind of can flip flop. Sometimes it could be easier to like talk about what you want with that person, and at the same time it could also be easier with like group sex, like depending on the structure of it. Like with your events, talking about like the yeses and the noes at the beginning, that, you know, everyone can like feel slutty for example. So like, if you hear someone, one person, you know, saying they want this and that, it kind of primes you to be, you know what? I want that too, or I want this. Mm-hmm. But, and then also kind of going, but we previously talked about like about bodies or bodies and stamina. If just one person, you know, there's only one person so you feel you have less eyes on you, you'll have, you know, thinking like, that's one less person you're thinking. Or that's only one person you're thinking about how like they feel about your body or stamina or their experience. And then like with group sex, however many people there are, five pairs of eyes, six pairs of eyes. Especially that would be overwhelming, especially if you're having sex for the first time or in front of all these people. Whether you're the person, like whether you're like a gang bang or orgy, but I also, personal sex, or I guess group sex can be intimate. Yeah, depending on like, you know, like individuals like kissing, you know, me cuddling, but that can get lost a lot. And obviously there's a lot, there's multiple people. Mm-hmm. So sometimes personal sex ends up being more intimate. Yeah. But group sex can be. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I completely agree with what you were saying about hearing other people say that they want something, primes. Me, I'd be like, "Oh, we can do that in this space?" Or, "Oh, yeah, that's a thing that I would like to." And I think another thing that I am really grateful that I have a pussy and not a dick because when I am feeling nervous, I don't need any body part to get doing any particular thing in order to be engaged in sex. And I think, you know, there's lots of ways to be engaged in sex without a heart dick, but especially in straight gang bang spaces, sometimes there can be this expectation that you must participate with a heart dick. And so I can create a lot of insecurities for guys. Yeah, yeah. Like, for you, if you're like, if you're diversity, you know, you don't have to have a heart dick, you know, you don't have, you know... You fuck with your fingers pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. It's gonna be, yeah, as a man, it's definitely heart. Like, you know, I'm not worried if I can't get hard. But I, you know, want to, especially if I'm, you know, depending, if I'm maybe like driving in an hour, no, I'm not assuming I'm gonna have sex with anybody, but I want to be able to get hard. And with all those people, it can definitely be a challenge. Like, a lot of times, because like a train of people, and maybe I get hard, and then there's a person in front of me, and then I'm a person that's having sex. And they're taking a wall to come, and I'm sitting here rock hard, and then by the time it's my turn, I am no longer hard. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that... So you're saying that like, that's just the logistical reality of your experience, and not actually the problem with somebody's body? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes, you know, it could be also anxiety about being able to get hard, but sometimes it's just... There's a lot of people, or, you know, sometimes I'm sitting there getting hard, and then it's taking me a while to get hard. I finally get hard, but then, you know, I'm just about ready to come, and I don't... Sometimes I care about that, about... sometimes I don't, but sometimes, you know, I want to be able to have sex for at least a couple minutes. But now, I can't do that 'cause I'm already ready to come, 'cause I was stroking myself for however long. The edging effect. Yeah. Boom. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So many different considerations when you're in a sex space. One of the things that you said that I thought was really significant that I want to point out is you said that you go to group sex not assuming that you're going to have sex. You're hoping, but not assuming, because it depends on what happened there and what everybody else wants, and that brings me to one of the things that I notice about you, Dee, that like... When you're in sex spaces, when you're in group sex spaces, I've noticed that you were very just respectful, and I think that this is significant because... There just isn't as much support for guys, especially single guys, coming to a gangbang or an orgy or a group sex space or a sex club in asking, respectfully. Like, there's a lot, when there are education for single guys, and often this doesn't happen at gangbangs, like hotel parties or whatever, but like at a sex club, there's often information about what not to do. But I don't think that there's enough education about how do you get what you want, or pursue what you want, even if you're not going to get it. How do you kindly ask for what you want? How do you kindly receive a no? Like, how do you engage with people in a way that's proactive and respectful? And so I think that being able to practice this together, regardless of our identity, is really powerful, and I also think that it's beneficial to be able to practice in those group sex spaces. So I have noticed that you are respectful of people's boundaries and consent while also engaged and active. You're up there and you're participating. And either of those, if somebody is standing back and watching and waiting to kind of decide when to participate, that's also great too. I think that that's another respectful way of participating, but I want to know how are you approaching this? Like, how are you thinking about going to group sex events as a single guy, and in particular, how do you go to group sex as a single guy in a way that's kind and respectful while also having fun and great sex? First, I use my eyes, my ears, if it's an event that's already started, for example. I use my eyes, like, is this person, are these people using condoms? Are they not using condoms? You list really attentively at the beginning, if there's any instruction going on. Of course, it gets pretty difficult when there's a lot of people, and maybe like one person has all these yeses and then the next person has all the same yeses, but then might as one thing. So I use my eyes and my ears, and then if it's an event where there's a couple and the female half is playing and the male half, you know, he's just watching him or making sure everything's good. I feel like it tends to be a little bit easier to talk with them first, although it can get difficult if they're like, she wants to be like this fuck real hard and nasty, but you're like, okay, but I don't know how much I should go. So talking with one of the partners is definitely a good step, even the host too, if it's like a smaller event during actual playtime. It's kind of difficult to say, I don't like rush into anything, I don't just, if there's a woman that person just sucking a dick, I don't just go right in there and then just put my dick in their face. I kind of slowly approach, if I can get some eye contact with them beforehand, that's usually pretty good. Like before the event or before you approach them? Because the eye contact kind of non-verbally communicates like I want you to join. Yeah, and then, if I'm not putting my dick in their mouth, for example, if it's like touching their body, I personally feel like it's okay to be like, is this okay? Because I'm not really at that moment, I'm not really sure what I'm doing exactly, so I kind of just start slow, I don't just go right into any of their private parts felt, you know, saying anything. I love that, you can use your words before and ask questions of the host, and you can use your words during sex to talk about what you're going to do before you do it. Yeah, sometimes, it's kind of hard to say if I ever really like say, can I have sex with you or stick my dick in your body, usually, it's kind of hard to explain how I really kind of get more consent. I'm going to pause real quick, try to think. It's usually for me, I kind of just mainly go like, is this okay or are you okay with this? I don't explicitly like, sometimes I'll like ask, you know, for oral or it's kind of difficult in like, you're like kind of like in the setting when it's all happening. But yeah, I typically try to get their consent before I'm doing anything, kind of like as things are progressing, not necessarily like we're doing something, we're like having sex and I just like stop beforehand. Just make sure things good to go. So some of the things I'm hearing there, you're looking about sexual health, are these people wanting to use condoms or not so that you can respect that? You're listening attentively to people's yes as a no's in advance, trying to remember them sometimes, I'm going to check back because there's tons of people and lots of different information during sex, you're checking in, how's this going for you, is this okay? And then before you're making significant steps like coming over for oral or sticking your dick in someone that you're either looking for clear non verbal communication that they're asking for you to come over or you're double checking, is this a thing that's okay for me to go forward with? Yeah. Yeah, even if, for example with you, I've seen you a lot, I still don't assume that we're going to have sex, but I still... I mean, when it's a gang bang on me, it usually is. I totally, yeah, I just want to be sure. Yeah, yeah, not totally, I love that. Right, like even when, I mean, it gets easier when you play with the same person multiple times, but even when you have still not making that assumption and asking, that's great. That's beautiful to be, to know that like you're open to whatever happens and it's a social experiment with all these people are also human and have their own desires and boundaries as well to learn together. So, I want to go back to this relationship question because I think it's interesting that there's all these different types of ethical nominee, like there's polyamory, there's open relationships, there's spatial relationships, there's like while you're single going out and playing with lots of people on a personal level, I couldn't do all of those things, but there are like, there are groups of people who choose to do one or more of those things, but not all of them, right? So I'm curious about how that lands for you, like, have you ever gone to a group sex event with a partner? Would you, would you go to group sex if you were in a relationship? How does that feel in your life? No, I have never been to a group sex event with a partner. Would I though? I'm not sure. I want to say I don't, if I met them through this life, maybe like I'd have an event, like if I maybe, but I don't think personally if I met someone outside of the life, I don't think I would take them to an event. I don't, I'm not sure if I even, I would be participating in group sex. Because your assumption would be that meeting people outside the lifestyle, they would probably want monogamy and you two to only have sex with each other, is that right? Yeah, I, yeah, I don't think I'm that non-monogamous. Like in my own relationships, monogamy, but I'm totally, you know, fine with being, if I'm, since I'm single, I'm totally fine being with all these different people. But now, if I, I'm not sure, maybe if I did meet someone through this life, maybe at an event, I'm not sure. I would definitely be more open to it than if I were to be with someone outside of the life. Yeah, it's interesting that you're talking about, you know, the lifestyle. When I first heard that phrase, I was like, that's kind of pompous. But now I realize that there's some, some like pretty utility about talking about it, because we know what it means. And then vanilla folks or folks outside the lifestyle who are more in the monogamous normative world, right? And it has been a long journey to get to the place where most of the people in my life now are in the lifestyle or are, you know, ethically non-monogamous in some kind of way. And the people who are not, you know, authentic and open about it. But that has definitely not always been the case. You know, when I was working like a office job, I would have my lifestyle friends. I would have my poly friends, my slutty friends, my sex club friends, whatever. And then I'd have my office job people where we don't talk about that. We didn't need to. Like, let's have a meeting. And so I know I've heard you described, too, that you have like, you go to group sex spaces, you go to porn spaces, you have those crew of people, and then you also have your friends from, I don't know, college from your whatever other parts of your life. And I know that for some people, for all kinds of reasons, there's a desire for confidentiality and compartmentalizing those two aspects of their life. So I'm interested in how you navigate, like, how much have you shared with your friends? How do you think they would respond if you told them more in depth? How do those conversations go? I feel like they would respond, that makes sense. If I said, I would assume that about you. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I've told them, but every time I went when I say it, I don't say it in the most serious way. Sometimes I do. Like, I was telling you that after I was in Portland with you, and that event, and I told them that, you know, I was kind of gangping in Portland and they're like, I can't tell if he's serious or not. And I'm like, I wouldn't lie to you guys. I did go. And you're saying with a smirk that's like enough of, it's either true or not true, but I'm not telling you for sure. Yeah. And so they would totally be, they wouldn't judge me at all. In fact, since I've been in college, they've assumed that I'm just going to start fucking everybody left and right. And I mean, that's kind of true. Not really. It's a little true, but I don't know if them thinking me going to group sex with all these naked people and having, and everyone having sex, I don't think they've ever thought that. But they, they wrote, they wouldn't judge me. I kind of want to tell them at the same time I still really don't. And why is that? And it's not ready to really say that yet. But yeah, I'm pretty, I'm pretty sure they'd, I mean, they'd be open minded. They would really, they wouldn't care at all. I just, yeah, they would, they would say it makes, it makes sense. That sounds kind of like a lot of queer folks who are coming out who's like, they're in the closet for a long time. And then when they come out, they're like, yeah, we saw you fabulous. And so people, your friends already know that you're slutty. They, of course, you've got a good sex event. That makes sense. But I totally, I also get that at the same time that I think truth is really powerful. I also think it's important that we are able to choose when we share our truth, that we have control over our own stories and that some people deserve our truth and some, some like we're still waiting to see if it's a safe person to share that with, or like when just generally when we're ready to share that with the world. And especially like you started in, when you're 22, 24 now, so it's like two years. It's pretty early of kind of exploring this lifestyle and deciding how you relate to it and how you make sense of it. And so as you're figuring that out for yourself, maybe like you're on a journey of figuring out to what extent you share it with your friends. And now I'm curious about a tough subject because families are all different kinds of ways and we lots of people relate to their parents or their biological families differently. I also want to name that chosen families are really important, especially in this world, especially for queer folks, especially for poly or not ethically non monogamous folks, folks who are like non normative in some kind of way to have a group of people that they have chosen in their adult life as their family especially in light of the rejection that a lot of people face from their biological families. But there are some biological family dynamics where it's okay and open and possible to share this like there's one person on the cliff media leadership team who was talking about how they told their mom about the stuff that they were doing and she was super supportive and got them some extra clothes to wear to the next shoot. I was like, oh yeah, like I love the intergenerational sharing. And so there's this huge wide, huge wide range of responses and ways that we navigate that and I am curious. How have you navigated that? And if you did share, if your family did find out about your interaction in gang things or porn or orgies or whatever, how do you think that they would respond? I feel like the women in my life, they wouldn't...no one in my family would just judge me any differently, like look at me any differently, but they would definitely would have loved the idea that I'm not just like with one person and going out and being naked and around all these people and having all this random sex. But the women in my life would like it less than the men in my life could be because they're more old school. Like your mom and grandma, would you think would be less enthusiastically supportive than your dad and grandpa? Yes. I think, but at the end of the day, everybody would just be like, be safe. I wouldn't tell them that I'm having sex without a condom. They'd be like, wear a condom all the time. Even though, yeah. As an aside from that, I think what you're referencing is when we're doing porn shoots, we do STI testing you in advance and then that way people can use condoms if they want, but don't have to. Yeah. And my grandpa, my dad, they would probably kind of...that's a lot more supportive. Not that my mother or my grandmother would be unsupportive. No, with porn, I'm not entirely sure. Since I'm literally out there, since I'm still young, they don't want with any future schooling or employers. I think they'd mostly just be worried about that and having any issues with my future, but it would generally be fine if I told them not that I will, but it would be fine. Yeah. I'm pretty sure. That's cool. Yeah. I mean, I think that one thing that I wish is that there was more differentiation of what kind of porn are you in? What kind of group sex are you going to? Because just like you described, like when you're showing up at a group sex event, even when it's not a professional event, it's just getting together, you're wanting to be reliable. You're wanting to be conscientious about the preferences and boundaries and desires of other people. You're wanting to contribute to a positive group space. And frankly, those are things that are also characteristics that could go on a resume that are beneficial to working in a team environment. So there's, I think, misunderstandings and overgeneralization sometimes that people have about porn are groups and especially getting into employment. But I understand it sounds like a lot of what you're describing is people wanting to know, can you protect your sexual health while you're doing this? Can you protect your future while you're doing this? And you are, it sounds like, have just decided that I'm taking care of myself and I'm pursuing my joy. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I'd like to leave this, as we do, on a sub-sky to happiness as a love note. And I want to take this opportunity to name something beautiful and special. I think that while cliff media and a slots guide to happiness and the organizing that we're doing is very much about lifting up the power and autonomy of women and queer people. We are also interested in, the larger goal is love and happiness and freedom and support for everyone. For having a society where you can be absolutely whoever you are, you can be kinkier, sluttier, queer, anybody who you are, you can have anybody, you can have any abilities in the world. And it is all beautiful. You are not only welcome. You're not only accepted, but you are wanted. And so this is a love note today to single cisgender guys because I think not only are single cisgender guys also important and in and of themselves. And I think that as single cisgender guys get more support and love and guidance in having the ability to have an enthusiastically consensual sexual adventures that would reduce the rate of assault. If we have a society where anyone has the skills, has the relationships to go out and pursue the sex they want in a healthy, beautiful, positive, connected environment, then there's less incentive to seek that in a non-consensual way. And then you have skills and practices in being able to have consensual, healthy, positive, good relationships with your partners and that you can bring that home to whoever your partner is. Now we're in the future. So I would love for more people, for more single guys to feel supported and competent in being able to go into sex spaces, including group sex spaces and be able to respectfully ask for what they want. And so, D, I'd love to, if we can leave with some words of wisdom for any, especially young guys, like folks like you who are in your position, considering getting into group sex, but maybe starting at the beginning feeling awkward, nervous or shy as we do. Well, I think even like what we've talked about, you know, you're probably most likely always going to be shy, even if you've already met with some people at some events. Even though it's easier said and done, like you live, you only live once. Sometimes you gotta say fuck it. And if you do, you could really enjoy yourself. I went to two lifestyle clubs, Swinger clubs before, first one, I went to, I went, and I did not love it. I just, I didn't go there assuming I was going to play, but I just went there. It's kind of hard to explain, I just really didn't enjoy myself all that well. And so, I kind of wrote lifestyle clubs off. And I knew previously going in that they're not necessarily dedicated for single straight men, typically for women and couples. So I was like, nah, I'm done. But then one day I decided, let me try it again. I said fuck it and went. And I'm going again because I enjoyed myself. Okay. Similar with Vanessa's films. I, well, the first one I ever went to was a glory hole. So I, I'm like, it's just, it's glory hole. Not my whole body's not on camera. It's fine. It's still pouring though. So I was, fuck it. And then, well, now I've met her a lot. So, you're always going to be shy. You're going to be nervous. She's always shy and nervous still. Even before the sex happens. So, just, sometimes you gotta say fuck it. There are a lot of bodies out there that you're going to see. You don't have to have a perfect body. You know, you don't have to have societies, you know, ideas of a perfect body. Big dick long, long lasting. Because when I first started, I fell out of my death a little bit. And some days I still, some days I feel like that. But now I, if I don't last long, if I'm feeling particularly unsexy that day, I say fuck and then at the end I enjoy myself. Yeah, I love the idea of when you want something, feel the fear and then do it anyway. Because the fear doesn't go away by thinking it away, it goes away eventually by acting. That I often feel gross in my body right up until I'm in sex and I'm having an amazing orgasm or I'm having a lot of fun playing with someone. And I just forget about it, right? Like I'm just enjoying myself or I feel sexy because I'm happy that that is the thing that makes me feel turned on and happy in my space. And so yeah, like just get out there that if you think you're insecure, so does everybody else in the room. Like everybody has some kind of apprehension about either how their body looks or how their body's going to work or who they are, how old they are, what background they are, how much experience they have. So you're not alone and like just go out and try it and I love the idea of using your eyes and ears, look at what's going on, take a minute, take a breath, have those spacious moments where you can look around where you can ask questions, it's completely desirable, it's beautiful to see people, especially single straight guys that are in those spaces and learning to be asking questions before, ask questions of the hosts, ask questions of the people who are organizing it, asking questions before of the co-participants about what they want. And then during sex, I think a lot of people think that asking during sex is breaking up the mood, but actually it's sexy as hell to be asked like, "Hey, do you want me to blah, blah, blah to your blah, blah, blah?" So get out there! If that's a thing that you want to do, I believe in you, I hope you have an amazing time and, gee, thank you as a single straight guy, as a young guy, as a person who's out there in community and online, putting yourself out there, thanks for sharing your experiences and hopefully reaching some other guys that are like you who are wondering like, "Is this a space where I'd be accepted?" So I want to leave this for you viewers, thank you for being here with a love note to all of you and to say that you are beautiful just exactly as you are. This has been another edition of A Sluts Guide to Happiness with your host, Vanessa Cliff. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple and Spotify, as well as on VanessaCliff.com. Please help us by liking and sharing this podcast and stay tuned for more deep dives and a beautiful fun and messy waters. If you're over the age of 18, you can also check out our video content and our website, VanessaCliff.com. And most of all, I invite you to join us in the pleasure of being awkwardly human, naked, and without pretense. Let's give free. [music]
