The Pink Smoke podcast
Ep. 147 The Outfit
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Continuing our episodes on Richard Stark's 24-book Parker series, we delve into the third book The Outfit, in which Stark (pen name for the legendary Donald E. Westlake) expands the violent world Parker to epic proportions and offers a smörgåsbord of heists (a metaphorical (not veritable) Swedish buffet of heists instead of pickled fish!) centering minor characters who would grow in importance as the series progressed. We also look in-depth at John Flynn's 1973 adaptation, possibly the most Parker-ish of all Parker adaptations.
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Intro music: Unleash the Bastards / “Tea for Two” Outro music: Marcus Pinn / “Vegas"
- Duration:
- 1h 25m
- Broadcast on:
- 06 Aug 2024
- Audio Format:
- mp3
(upbeat music) We are here on the Pink's Love podcast to discuss best outfit of any '70s crime film. - Riss, would you argue it's not Fred Williams said and hell up in Harlem and that beautiful scuba gear he has on? - The Robert Ryan's wife in this movie is wearing a pretty good outfit at one point. This like bell bottom white pants suit. I think that I both understand what you're saying and I'm pointing out a good outfit. You know what the worst outfit is in any '70s crime film? Is the like, it's, I don't know how to try. - Probably friend leaves in scuba gear, honestly. - No, it's in cotton comes to Harlem. The woman wears this like little spangle (laughing) cobalt dress. That's fucking terrible. And it's supposed to be sexy and it's awful looking. That's, I think that's the worst, I can come up with worst dressed for this. - I know exactly what you mean, but I'm glad you pointed out there is a great outfit in the outfit. It's true, Chewanna Cassidy wins it. We're talking Parker, we're talking Donald E. Westlake writing under the name Richard Stark. We're on our third book of the series, The Outfit from 1963, which ends the first trilogy. I'd say kind of unofficial first three books are like Make Up a Trilogy. This one kind of comes back to things that were set up in The Hunter, the first novel, The Parker Books, and pays them off very beautifully, brings back characters from that book. And for a long time, I mean, it's a personal favorite, but the last one we talked about, the Man With The Getaway Face, I always thought was like the strong book of this trilogy, but after reading The Outfit again, I don't know, The Outfit is pretty phenomenal. - You thought it was the strong book of this trilogy? It's funny, I always think of it as, The Hunter is entirely its own thing. It's not even really a Parker book. It's like something else. Then the Man With The Getaway Face is the first Parker book and it's a really, really solid Parker book. It's excellent. And then this one is like, the big finale, the big finish, the surely, the last Parker book they'll ever write coming to bringing the trilogy to a close. And so I always think of this one. I don't know if it's the strongest, but it's definitely the one I think of as being the like, it's the showstopper in a lot of ways, you know? - That's the right word for it, yeah. I mean, I like Man With The Getaway Face is intimacy. I love that it's all within Parker's world and these characters and they're all kind of, the plot is very service, very serviceable plot with all these characters. But the outfit I realized reading at this time really expands the world of Parker in a really satisfying way. I mean, of course they had the little trip to Nebraska and the Man With The Getaway Face. But in this one, it takes place all across the country. Lots, so many characters thrown in, so many things going on. And you really kind of appreciate that. We've mentioned it's the regular formula of these books that we lose Parker in the middle of the book and then come back to him in the third act. But in this one, there's a real confidence, I feel, with West like letting Parker go and just kind of showing us like the world, like expanding the world of Parker and the world of Hysters and criminals in a way that feels very satisfying. And if he hadn't like established this world all the way through until this point, he definitely does it in this novel. - It's also, it's interesting. This time, this is a weird comparison. This time I was, I had the like, these are the Indiana Jones of crime novels where you have a guy who's like the best in the world at what he does, going around, meeting up with different old friends to pull off wildly improbable heists. I guess they're not heists in Indiana Jones. I guess it's recovering artifacts that belong in a museum. But it has that same sort of like, he's not globe trotting in Parker. He goes around the country though. It's definitely like, you can picture the map with following him and up, you know, from Miami to Macon, Georgia or wherever he's headed at this point in time to pull off of him. - It is Blue Olds Mobile, yeah. - Exactly. - The Indiana Jones is constantly getting betrayed by his allies as well. So there's that. - Yeah, it's, it does. It's a weird, it's sort of like, he's gonna go and meet an old friend. They're gonna get into adventures, you know, and he's great, you know? And that's sort of the formula for it in a funny way. - I never thought about it, but that's perfect. His Temple of Doom is very much its own standalone movie. - Yeah. - Just like, man, what the getaway face is its own standalone story between the hunter and the outfit. - Yeah, and then, and then "Last Crusade," the much maligned by Bill Tech, "Last Crusade." If you, if you wanna hear somebody, the crazy position of somebody disliking "Last Crusade," you can listen to our "Indiana Jones Tetralogy" episode that we recorded with Bill Tech and John Arminio. But, but yeah, it builds to an outfit-esque sort of bringing people back, introducing new people, setting up characters that feel essential and, you know, all of that sort of thing. I don't think, you know, obviously, making a one-to-one comparison too hard is kind of an idiotic thing to do, but there is something about it as I sort of felt like this time. Like, I love "Indiana Jones" and the pleasures I get from this book are weirdly similar to "Indiana Jones." - No, I think it is a good comparison, especially because, like I said, these first three books, everybody considers them a trilogy, even though it's not, you know, Parker part one, two, and three. But it has that similar kind of destruction, I think it's important to kind of have them connected for that same reason. And the strengths of the outfit, I think, you know, really come from what he'd been building up in the first two books. And it's fun to see characters come back for the first time, and it's, you know, it's neat to have this established world now that we can really live in. - Yeah, I don't know. I think it's like an incredibly solid entry to the series. - So take us through the plot of it. - I know why I'm sitting around. (laughs) - What are we gonna talk about? - It's great, it's fantastic. Take us through the plot of it real quick. - Well, I forgot to read, I forgot to read the intro. I usually do this at the beginning, at the top of the episode, but I will go ahead and do it now, because it pretty much just sums up where we're at, you know, following events from the Hunter. This is the threat that Parker gave to the head of the outfit, the syndicate, the crime syndicate, the national crime syndicate that he goes up against in the first book. He says, "I've worked my particular line for 18 years. "In that time, I've worked with about 100 different men. "Among them, they've worked with just about every pro "in the business. "There's you people with your organization and there's us. "We don't have any organization, but we're professionals. "We know each other. "We stick with each other. "And we don't hit the syndicate. "We don't hit casinos or layoff bookies or narcotic caches. "You're sitting there wide open. "You can't squeal the law, but we won't hit you. "If you don't give me my money, I write letters "to those 100 men I told you about. "I tell them the syndicate hit me for 45G. "Do me a favor and hit them back once. "And you've got the chance. "Maybe half of them will say the hell with it. "The other half are like me. "They've got a job all cased. "A lot of us are like that. "You organize people are so wide open. "We walk into a syndicate place and we look around "and just automatically we think it over. "We think about it like a job. "We don't do anything about it "because you people are on the same side as us, "but we think about it. "I've walked around for years with three syndicate grabs, "all mapped out in my head. "I've never done anything about it. "The same with a lot of people I know. "So all of a sudden, they've got the green light. "They've got an excuse. "They'll grab for it." So that's the basic set up here is that the syndicate, the outfit finds out Parker, they learn his new identity after he's changed his face and the man with the getaway face. They put a hit out on him, guy comes and of course botches the job. Parker survives and realizes the outfit is not gonna leave him alone. So he goes on the offensive. He writes to all of his buddies, he writes them letters, telling them, "Go ahead and hit these guys. "It's the time to do it 'cause if we all hit him at once, "the repercussions against individuals won't be harsh "'cause they're gonna have their hands full. "It's gonna be, they're gonna be too busy "to come after any one individual person." And it works. Lots of his criminal friends have indeed thought of all these different types that they like to do. They've always been an unwritten rule to leave the syndication operations alone, but now they've been emboldened to both these heists. And so several of these heists happen at the same time that Parker is narrowing in on the Bronx and the head of the organization, the head of the outfit who has put this into play. So that's the basic idea. First after the book is Parker setting all these things up, getting everything ready. Second is these heists that we experience. And then the third is Parker's final revenge coming against Bronson. So again, just a really well-structured, very fun story. - Yeah, in like almost all of the Parker books, it's four sections. The first two sections are sort of putting in the plot in motion. The third section leaves Parker behind and catches up with a different character. It comes about halfway through the book normally. Different character or in this case, characters. And then Parker reappears at the end of that section and the fourth section is catching up in time. The third section is sort of normally a step backwards in time or a step out of time in some way. It's sort of like, you know, there's this guy who's been in Parker's sights or something else going on behind the scenes and we jump back, catch up with them with the third section and the fourth section is catching up with the time from the end of the second section. And that's all of them. This one follows this. Although the interesting part of this is that it's not just one guy. It's not just Bronson in the third section, which would be normal. It's all of these guys pulling all of these various little heists and that's sort of the charm and the pleasure of this book is to have the third section focus on so many different people going in so many different little directions. It's this book is, you know, instead of like, you know, most Parker books are especially here going forward. The hook for Parker books after this with a few exceptions for like 10 books is The Heist. It's Parker Robs and Island Casino, Parker Robs of Sports Stadium, Parker Robs and entire military base, Parker Robs a mining town, right? These are the setup. That's what the other books going forward are about. And so in this book, you get like six or seven additional little Parker books in the third section. You sort of get six or seven additional little heists shoved in there in addition to the main overall Parker story, which is not a heist for once, which is a revenge story. As it says later on in it, Parker feels weird because he's doing it for personal reasons and he's not doing it for money. And so you don't get to see Parker doing Parker things in this book in exactly the normal way that you always do, especially going forward after this. - It's true, Parker hits the Three Kings, his one heist early in the book. And it's a very like just walk in and pull a gun and take the money kind of heist. It's really just kind of initiate things. It's definitely not a thing that's built up or anything. - Yeah, I don't even think of that one as a heist, but you're right, I guess it is. - Yeah, I'd forgotten about it when he mentioned it later in the book. I was like, wait, he did a heist? I missed that? Oh yeah, that's right. He did kind of do a quick little side heist on it. - I always remember it because it's the Timothy Carey scene. So that's always Jake Minner. Yeah, so that's, that is, you're right. It doesn't feel like a heist in that way, but this would be my question for you in that little heist section in the little part. What's your favorite of the mini heist? Which one do you like the best? - So of the kind of four big heists that we follow in this section, my favorite by far, well, not by far, they're all great. They're all great. - They're great. I love them, but my favorite is the layoff. More of them, the layoff man. - Yes. - They're waiting for the phone not to ring because Westlake really takes you into like the life of the layout, the whole setup with the organizations, the bookies, the commission house, sits it all up so that, you know, you understand what it is and how it's organized and how my boy salsa can immediately identify it. Long Island's favorite former communist heist and I love this guy so much. - That happens expert former communist revolutionary. - It's great. But like, you know, just like you said, I think I'm sure we've said before on past episodes, you know, the real kick of these books are the planning and execution of these heist and the details that Westlake includes. There's so much fun. I love that he even kind of acknowledges it at one point when Quill, like a accountant for the outfit, comes to talk to Bronson and he's kind of mapping out everything that went wrong with the cockatoo club hit and it says Bronson inspired himself, got interested in the recital. He's like sitting there interested to hear like the, how the heist happened and like how they got away and everything and it's like, that's exactly what Westlake is good at and that's like the real meat and potatoes of these books. So yeah, like you said, to have four big ones right in the middle of this is so much fun. I guess I love the layoff man, but I also love the brown suit, money transfer, the drug money going into Miami is a great bit and you've got the kind of classic just guys with guns going in and robbing, you know, an amusement corporation and your gun, can you scream louder than this gun? You know, just being tough and taking the money. The guys who hit the club cockatoo and you know, get away in the Volkswagen because they know that nobody would use a Volkswagen as a getaway car. There's just great details and like again, you know, again, fun characters to like bring up and then bring back later on. So yeah, this whole section is great, which is your favorite. - Well, I think I love the layoff man part too. I think that one's great. I think it's probably the money suit is my favorite just because of how the heist works. We're hitting everybody against each other to make everyone think that the other person's going in for the rip off. You just know they're gonna get away with it and the outfit isn't even going to know what happened necessarily, you know? I will tell you one of the other things I love about the layoff man part is when Maury, Maury has been gotten this job. He's kind of a fuck up by his brother-in-law who's an important guy in the syndicate. And he tells him, hey, Maury, if you fuck this up, there's nothing I can do for you. They're gonna retire you with flowers, you know? And when-- - Like forestry strand. - Yeah, and then when Sal says ripping him off, Maury's reaction of like reeking the fuck out 'cause he knows he's gonna get killed now and he didn't really do anything wrong. He just got robbed like everybody else is getting robbed. So having it come as the fourth, one as the fourth section in that, right? That it really feels like you feel sympathy for Maury 'cause it's not the first one where you're like, oh, this idiot, you're like, everybody's gotten knocked off. He's somebody else and he's gonna get killed over it. Oh, that really sucks for him 'cause he didn't do anything worse than the other guys, you know, than the two guys who got the money suit ripped off by them. And there's two things I like about these sections too. What were you gonna say? You made a face like you wanted to talk about that. - I was only gonna mention that, you know, another thing that's greater than like just the setup of these heist and everything about these scenes is just the background that he creates obviously. - Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. - And how we learn about each one of these characters, you know, and how Maury, you know, how he has to, as soon as he gets the call and they say put 3000 on this horse, he's gotta like get the money. - On Mr. Whiskers. - Mr. Whiskers, he's gotta grab the money and run over, you know, like a few blocks down to the, to the racetrack and place this bet and just like his anxiety over like getting there in time and making sure he gets the bet in and, you know, everything about it, like you become the main characters in their little sections and you absolutely adore them. - Yeah. - In the brown suit transfer, in the brown suit money transfer bit, you know, we learn all about Fred Parnell and how his brother-in-law was already stranned, who got retired with flowers because he was unreliable to the outfit. But everything, you know, just learning like how these guys found out about these possible heists and how they like built up to do them, everything about it is just fantastic. - Yeah, I love that it goes through one is, you know, the numbers game running, the numbers, the people betting a dime, one is the layoff man who is bookies trying to cover bets when action on a horse goes too strong in one way or the other that they've gotta be able to cover it, right? You have the money suit transfer, which is about heroin deals, right? It's the money being moved around for heroin deals. And I love that. And then the Kakutu Club is an underground drinking bar and gambling in a dry county, right? You have realistic organized crime of systems and organizations in place and going through them and how they're sort of wide open to be taken is really interesting. But just the details of like, what happens to your dime if you play the numbers, right? What happens to your dime? Where does it go? How does the money come back? And that's one thing I love about the layoff man section to, it's essentially if too many betters are betting on a horse that has long odds, then the bookies won't have enough money to cover it if it comes in. So they go and hedge their bet, they bet on the opposite side of the horse, you know? So that if he does win, that they'll have money to cover all these bets that have come in, essentially, right? And that is always, that's fascinating to me. That's really, - And even if they lose, then they're still not losing as much money as they would if they had to pay everything out. - Exactly. - If they're only putting up $3,000 into it, they're still not having to pay all of the bets. - Yeah, they're not betting against it. I guess they're betting on the horse. - Yeah, and the same, which also has the advantage of bringing the odds down, right? - Right, like 24, yeah, to one, to like 10 to one. - Yeah, exactly, that they'll bring the payout down anyway, which is, that's all fascinating to me. I also, one of the things that I love about that section, what year was this book published, first published on? - 63. - 63 is the year this published. So it is, does it predate grifters? What year is grifters? - Do not know. - Hold on one second. While we look this up on the internet. - Well, the same as late '60s, but don't know. - So grifters is also 63. So this movie, "Grifters" also 63, what I love about this is that Angelica Houston's character in "The Grifters" is a layoff man also, that that's the job she's doing in "The Grifters" is she's also a layoff man. And obviously what's fun about that is that Westlake adapted the grifters into the movie in 1990, that he was the one who adapted the script. And every time I see that movie, I think of the like, well, he's well versed in what a layoff man does based on his own book, based on the outfit. I feel like it's a kind of one of those synchronicities that I really like, one of those harmonic convergences that I find very, very charming. - And I love that she does, what Maury has only fascinated, that fantasized about doing, which is picking up the tickets off the floor that people throw away when they lose, and using those as receipts so that she can siphon off, some of the money for herself, and that's her big scam as a layoff man. - Yeah, but then she's got to use all that money to get her son the best possible nurse she can afford. You know, that nurse, who seems like a great lady, but was the victim of twisted, under-age Nazi sex experiments, that character that I'm obsessed with ruining that book. (laughs) Who's, you know, Roy is just repulsed by, I can't marry you. I know you seem like marriage material, but you were Nazi sex experiments were perpetrated upon you, and there's no way I can marry you now, young lady. (laughs) Yeah, that doesn't, for some reason, Westlake doesn't put that in the movie, for some reason. That is a funny thing, though, not to just to bring it up, the comparison between Westlake and Jim Thompson, as hard as the Parker books want to be. In this book, I feel like has more instances of people like casually, like he's trying to be casually rough in this book. I feel like talking about like roughing up women in bed, and at one point, he's like, I can't remember these, I don't want to get it wrong, but he's like, he didn't feel like fucking the fat retard. It's something like that at the end. It's like, oh my God, and somebody else gets called, you know, actual homophobic slurs. As much as that's trying to be tough, Westlake is like a nice guy, and his books never go too far. You know what I mean? Even like he just doesn't have it in him to go too far. The way Jim Thompson cannot help, but go too far in every single book, in every single Jim Thompson book. And that's what I love about Jim Thompson books, is I think there's a genuine, it might be overstating it to call it transgressiveness, but there's always a moment where you're like, that's too much, you know, like this is no longer a fun book anymore, this is too much in some way. Like talking about how the woman and killer inside me, her head like caved in like a pumpkin, I always think that description is like, oh my God, this is like the tragic demise of a major character in this description is like horrific, or the, you know, the Nazi sex past, or like the entire end of the getaway, like the last third of that book, you know, all of that kind of stuff. He always goes to, like you can't stop going too far. It's like compulsive with Jim Thompson, whereas West like like wants to go too far, but just doesn't have an end. He's like a nice guy from Hudson, New York, who lives with his wife that he loves and like he pushes it, but he just doesn't, he just doesn't have that in him, which I think is to these books advantage, I really do, 'cause his dark and his heart of a character and sort of ruthless and unpleasant as he is, that West like has no affinity for the unpleasantness. He has no sort of spiritual affinity for the unpleasantness. So the books are sort of spiritually clean as dark as he tries to make them. You know what I mean? - Yeah, absolutely. It's funny to like read descriptions of characters like throwing women against the wall in this book. I mean like, oh, that's pretty brutal. And then watching the movie adaptation, which we'll get into later where like women are like repeatedly punched in the face. - And you're like, this is horrible. This is terrible. Why are you keeping her around if you feel this way? - But you know, the transgressiveness, and it's true like Jim Thompson was like legitimately like a savage writer, you know, like he definitely wouldn't go too far. But even like-- - He's got something in his soul he's trying to throw up with every book. You know, it feels like he's really trying to wretch something out of his stomach that he can't get out. And you don't feel that way with West like-- - Yeah, but it's like reading all those casual slurs and like narrative slurs, not even like it's a character saying it. It's like it's a descriptive, you know. And being like, well, modernizes wouldn't go for this. They wouldn't go for this moment at the end where he's like, well, I'm in my full starter mode here after my heist. Maybe this fat dummy is, you know, acceptable. Nah. - No, I deserve to fuck somebody better than this fat dummy. - He's just a little too one accepted. It's like, oh my God. - He's in an pointless section too. There's no reason for it. - It really isn't. - It's just like he created this character to be unfuckable. - That's really hammer. - That's really hammer home. How like, insatiable horny Parker gets after her eyes. - But not that horny. - But when I talk about like the later books, and by this, I mean like the last eight Parker books that were written, you know, 20 years after the original series and how those like feel weirdly watered down, I think they'll like. - They feel like Jack Reacher books or something. - Sorry. - Yeah. - Yeah, I like them. I like them a lot. - I like them too. I like them a lot. - But like there's definitely something missing and I hate to say that like this stuff is what's missing. You know, like this stuff that you only get in 50s and 60s crime books. It's, you know, it wins as you're reading it, but you're like, but this is the world that you know you signed up for. So I can, it's not a defense of it, but it's just like a way of saying like, I, you know, this belongs here weirdly. - Yeah, I feel like those books, the later ones as much as I like them, they to me, this is weird just because I've been reading a lot of his books and rewatching the movies. They feel like, it's so weird to say this. They feel like if a young writer set out to like, do an impression of Elmore Leonard's most commercial stuff. - Okay. - You know? I feel like very like post like get shorty Elmore Leonard. You know what I mean? They feel like audience friendly, never too nasty. Like maybe a bad guy. You'll really wanna like, oh that guy, I hate him. I hope he gets his, you know? And colorful without being like, with a colorful and foul mouth without being dangerous at all. There's no danger to them somehow. They're super enjoyable. And in some ways, they're even better plotted than the originals. There's, it sort of strikes me how effortless the plotting is for those in them. They're kind of, they're just full of twists that build in a satisfying way. Like they're just very like, they're just super duper elegant contraptions, but they do feel there's not danger to them. And there's not ugliness. And there's not sort of the foul mouth violence to them. You know, there's not, they're not sleazy at all. I guess is what it is, you know? Like the outfit was like when a little soft on us. Yeah. (laughing) Yeah, if those later books walked into a park where the earlier Parker books were playing crap game and tried to hold them up, they would tear its head off, they would tear its heart out. Yeah, it's hard, yes. They'd tear its heart out. But anyway, back to the outfit. Yeah, not which is like, I like those books. I'm re-rated because I didn't get through all eight of them. And so these are good. And maybe one day we'll get all the way up there and actually get to talk about them because they are really good. But yeah, 12 robberies in five days, over a million dollars stole from the outfit. And the one thing it's funny, it's like, what, it's like I'm desperately trying to find fault in this book in some way. And the one thing I have is like, well, I mean, if all the heisters are like, probably like hard to find, moving around all the time like Parker, how is he writing letters to everybody? And then they definitely get the letters. I know, what are you gonna do? He's got, he's gotta be able to contact these guys. Well, he's sending them to contact people like me. Yeah, they all got their Joe Shears, sure. Their Joe Shears, their Madges, all of those kind of people. I think he sets that up pretty well. And I think he also sets it up where there's a fair number of them that, he feels like don't even get to their destination, you know? Especially when he's talking to Madge later on. The motel owner, the former prostitute whose life is always 19, the roaring 20s, prohibition era. It's, I feel like, you know, when you get to that, you get a sense of like, there's this, what's interesting about this book is the world of the heisters always feels like a dying world. It always feels like everybody's dying off that it's old, the old ways. It's very interesting to me. Maybe because these books have such a '60s and then the movies made from them late '60s, '70s, sort of like post-industrial decay to their look that you kind of can't avoid, that America looked like it was crumbling and it was crumbling in a lot of ways in that era, that these books have that same sort of feel of like, Parker's got to get out. He's the only one who's going to get out to Miami. The rest of it's just going to collapse in on itself that, you know, the handy mckays of the world are just they don't stand a chance somehow, you know, their little diners up in pressed main, you know, that diners are going to be out of fashion and there's just going to be nothing for them to do that they're all, everybody's all caught in some kind of world that's soon to be distant past, you know, these books very much have a feel like that. - Well, the big theme, I think of the book obviously is, and so it's not even though it's a theme, but it's like something that's important for the character of Parker. And the fact that this book is called The Outfit, right? We're comparing and contrasting Parker to this organization and the people who are like Parker, like Salza and Rico and all the other guys. And the outfit, you know, you've got Bronson living in his very cold, you know, rock mansion up in Buffalo that he hates to be at. This is, you know, where he's gotten with all of his success is this place where he doesn't feel at home and he just wants to leave more than anything like that. And he has all these contemplations about like, "What am I? What am I doing here?" But this isn't where I wanted to end out. This is not my beautiful house, right? He has this revelation of like things used to be different. And now like he has the actual line, he says like, "We were the Parker's then back when he got started." You know, they were the ones who were actually going out there and doing really bold crimes and being, you know, making them, making something of themselves. And there's this big thing in the novel about, you know, people who are in a place in their lives where they are part of the regular culture now that they're just like totally comfortable. They're working steps and they're just a company. Yeah, they're just like nine to fiveers. And the big thing when the accountant comes to show everything that went wrong and he says, "You realize your employees don't think of themselves as criminals, right?" You know, like they're not willing to stand up and die to defend your organization. And if you told them they were criminals, they would all quit on the spot. You know, like they're regular people with houses and health insurance and families. And that's when Bronson realizes like, "Oh my God, really? We're a fucking company? Are you serious?" That's what the outfit is. We're not like some hot shot syndication at all. We're just fucking IBM or whatever. You know, it's a really startling revelation to him. And of course, on Parker's end, he's got Handy McKay with his diner and he's feeling like, "Oh my God, Handy's gonna become like that. He's gonna have a diner. He's gonna like raise a family. He's gonna be in Maine. He's gonna be making eggs the rest of his life. He fries a good egg when he puts his mind to it. I, he fries a good egg, but that's what he's gonna be doing for the rest of his life. And that is, you know, antithetical to the Parker lifestyle, to the Heister lifestyle that these guys lead. This true independence of like, you know, going out not robbing things because, you know, you wanna one day have a mansion in Buffalo, but you know, going out there and doing it because like that's just your nature and it's who you are. And I think that that makes it a really interesting, especially because we were already talking about, you know, the character and man with the getaway face who has the woman who is clearly using him betraying him, but he can't see past because of his, you know, his love for her and how, how it sickens Parker to see this relationship because, you know, he sees that like this guy's emotional attachment, his sentimentality is a weakness that Parker would never wanna have. And that's what the office become is this big weakness. And you know, Parker's discussing in this book by when Andy McKay says, I'll do it for free Parker, you're my friend, I'll come and help you. And he's like, oh, I was like, why would that do that? But he's more like, you're gonna get me killed. If you're doing shit for free, you're soft and you're gonna get me killed. That's his reaction to it, which I really like. Well, one thing about Bronson, I really like too, one note about Bronson is that this is my beautiful wife, but I love that he doesn't hate his wife and keeps trying to be nice to her and they keep trying to be nice to each other. - Yes. - And it's just like miserable. It's just like miserable to like play canasta, whatever card game they're playing there. - Yeah, let's go to the movie watching. - Yeah, do you wanna watch the football game? No, I don't know. - No, he can watch me move. - Yeah, it's just... - It's so depressed. - And he's like, it's not, I gotta go apologize to her. I'm angry at Parker and not her. That's such a coming home from work thought. The like, oh, I gotta apologize to my wife. I'm angry at Parker, not at my wife, you know, kind of thought. It's so, it's so just like working stiff bullshit, you know, that I absolutely love about it. And the like, what am I doing in Buffalo, living in a house in Buffalo? And the other detail that I love about his neighborhood is that they're selling off of all these big, old money sort of mansions to become like orphanages and school for developmentally disabled kids and stuff. That's the kind of, that's the only thing they do with those sort of houses anymore, right? Is just to turn them into like not for profit spaces. And it's kind of funny because you go like, oh yeah, no, neighborhoods exactly like that. I know neighborhoods exactly like that. And I've never thought it through that way before that what happened to this stuff that seems like classy old money. Like there's a moment when it goes to be like that, you know, the Middletown Historical Preservation Society. And now they got a bunch of flax winders in there, you know, but somebody was living in that place in 1955, you know? And I love that, I love how when Parker and Andy are casing the house. And they're like, he's had like no visitors all week. Isn't he like some syndicate hot shot? Like he's just hiding out in his big house and nobody comes to see him. - I also love how the guy below Bronson Carnes and Quills, the quill, the guy who comes into as the sort of the fixer, the Jean Renaud Harvey Keitel character, right? Keitel comes in how both of them do not give a shit if Bronson gets killed. That they are actively like, who cares? And that's like every job I've ever had. I've never known anybody who cares if their boss dies. You know what I mean? It's not like Handy McKay and Parker. Like I don't care if they die because I'm a ruthless criminal and that's what happens on it. It's that very much like working stuff. Like my boss lives or dies. What does that mean for my weekend plans? That's just like your only reaction to it. So he got hit by a car, you say? Does that mean I gotta take another shift? What's happening here? You know, it's that very much that relationship to him. It doesn't even feel like Godfather scheming with Carnes. It just feels like, I'd like that promotion, you know? And Will, who I love when they're shooting all of the bodyguards and Quills like, "Hey, I'm just sitting here." And they're like, "Are you gonna be trouble?" And he's like, "Why would I be trouble? "What do you want me to tell the other guys?" You know, like literally, God, nothing. I'm just the money man. I'm a paper pusher, you know? I'm not a wimp, you're not scaring me. But like, come on guys, you know, I'm still like you in some ways, you know? I'm the more efficient version of you. - Yeah, I really like the Quill character. I imagine it would be played by Matt Damon in his character role in "Ocean's 11" where he's supposed to be the dorky accountant who tricks Andy Garcia would be a good role for that. But I imagine him played by the, by, what is his name? I used to know his name. McLean who plays the "Home Repossessor" and "Strozek" and works in the auction and how much wood could a wood chuck chuck? - Yeah, that would be good casting for sure. - The glasses and the very slow talking. Well, you see they came in here to the cock-a-toot club and they walked down this hallway, you know? They included that character in the outfit movie. They could've cast that guy. (laughing) But I think that's another cool thing about Parker is that, you know, everyone kind of just thinks of him as this mosquito stinging the arm of this giant organization. But like, he goes to Fairfax. He gets cards on the phone. He's like, hey, you know, it would be advantageous to you for me to wipe this guy out. So how about we make a deal? I wipe him out and then you guys leave me alone. That's incredibly smart of him, obviously, to like set this thing in motion which Bronson would never even see coming. They're like, you know, again, it's not like there's any malice against him necessarily, but like, when Karn's is like throwing this idea, he's gonna jump on it, obviously. So, you know, good strategic move on Parker's part. - Yeah, I agree 100%. And that's the other thing we talked just a little about to just pull the theme back a little more just at the end before we jump and talk about the movie, some is that it's fun to see Parker doing something for, like he says, personal reasons and feeling tense and feeling strange where he talks about like, one heist I had to sit in the back of a truck. I couldn't even smoke for six hours and it didn't bother me. This I felt like the need to get up and pace after waiting for a half an hour. Just the different mindset of him in this book where he does feel like there's something at stake for him. In all the other books, what makes him so efficient is you do feel like he could walk away from anything if it doesn't smell right, that he doesn't care, that he just takes no risks, that it's always going to go his way, that even when all of fate conspires against him to knock him off the ladder and he's got to pull himself back up, that just like he's got the composure and the skill set to just get what he needs. This book does feel like he's taking a big risk, you know? It's a personal risk. There's something personal at stake for him and seeing him work through that is interesting. Although it's funny if you place it in the context of when the book was actually written, well, that's the hunter also. So two out of three books that we've seen him in, he's actually sort of more of a raw open wound than he is in the entire rest of the series. - Very true, very true. But again, it's, you know, this one really brings things around from the hunter and pays them off in very satisfying ways. So I think that that's appropriate. Before we get off the book, I just wanna mention just a few more small things that I love and we'd already mentioned, you know, kind of the background story of these minor characters, taking over the book, you know, during their sections and how much I freaking love all of them. I love just the writing, the brown suit, money transfer when the two guys team up and it says they split the coat up the back and the take down the middle. That's beautiful, man. That's a beautiful line right there. I love salsa with his Frankenstein mask, taking on the gas station, that's a great detail. I can definitely see that in my head. And I love the, I too, I was thinking like, oh, 42,000 is what salsa gets from the safe, from the layoff, man. He does less than everybody else, but he's also the only one who takes it by himself. So all that 42 grand is going into Salas' car fund right there. I love that salsa. - And I love the guy who's watching him, who's not Maury. I love that that guy is like an awe 'cause he's like, he got away clean. That guy's gonna get away clean. We're not going to the police. I didn't catch his plate number. Wow, he's just, he got away clean. That's the other guy's reaction. While Maury's like, oh shit, they're gonna kill me. The other guy's just like in the gas station's like, wow, that's incredible. He's, that's it. We'll never catch that guy in a million years. He's just gone. - That's great. It goes from, you know, the guys at Club Cockdoobie and like, you won't get three miles, you know? They're like, you know, why are you nuts hitting us? Indicate operation, that's crazy. But the other advantage to it is obviously the office. It's not gonna go to the cops. They're not gonna reveal their, you know, their illegal organizations to the police in order to get these guys. And so that's a, I love how every single character has this thought of like, the guys who are getting hit. I should mention the guys at the targets of these heists have all had this thought of, oh, I should probably run away with this money. I probably should, you know, just like run away with this cash and try to get away scot-free. That they all have this thought of like, I, this is illegal money. I could just get away with it, just run away with it. And that's like their fantasy. And then when these guys come to actually take it from them, they're all so fucking pissed that somebody came in and did what they've just been dreaming up for so long, which is another thing I think about comparing the organization and its employees to the heisters. These people who would never do that, right? They would never actually follow through with an ambitious plan and those who do it all the time, you know, people who actually go out there and they take this money and they get away scot-free, you know, and the kind of the indignation that these people who have softened up have become more like just regular working shows have against these people is very, very fun as well. But following the dime and the Novelty Amusement Corporation, you know, you mentioned that just like the details of like how these things work and what gets skimmed off the till, you know, and goes from this place to that place, how the money moves around. Everything about it is just a so rich in detail. - My favorite part about the-- - Really makes that very section just amazing. - About the bit with the dimes is when they're talking about the take, they mentioned that they left the five dimes behind and the same, that they just took the cads. - Doesn't get the dimes. - Yeah, the 50 cents that the five dimes are left there. - That's true. - I also love that section too, because that section is written in such a way. I think the Cockatoo Club a little less so, but that second section, you're definitely like, oh, is this Parker doing it now? You know, you have this like, is this Parker? Is this Parker, you know, happening a few times in a section section in particular. - I like that some of them start through the perspective of the highsters and some through the perspective of the targets. So you like have a different kind of angle each time with like how we're gonna enter this particular story. - Yeah, and it's cool too, 'cause they're all cool little high stories that you read and you're like, that's awesome. And then you think, well, you couldn't expand any of those into a book. None of them are a book. None of them are even a short story, really. There are sections in this interesting book, which is like, you know, it's kind of a special thing in some ways. You know, I think it's easy to take for granted how neat this is, like what a cool idea it is. - I feel like I would read a book on Salsis three years on a luxury transatlantic steamer where he's just living off of women who can't resist him here. - Well, it's essentially, isn't that just gender-inverse lady? Isn't that what we're talking about here? - Basically, yeah, he's doing the, yeah, doing the lady eve. - Yeah, I do wish we've made jokes about it before. I do wish his name was something other than Salsa. I really do wish his name was something other than Salsa. - Especially because just the connotations are like, yeah, like Mexico, is he Cuban? You're saying like, it seems like he's supposed to be Cuban. Maybe he's, you know, I don't know. - His brother's name is. - Part of shining path. - His brother's name is Chibi Changa. - Yeah, exactly, exactly. But it's like, do they, I mean, you're sure, of course they have Salsas and Cuba, but that's not what I would think of. If you say the word Salsa, you don't think of-- - It's like, if somebody's from Canada and you call them hot dog, you're like, well, I'm sure they do have hot dogs in Canada. I believe you and I have eaten hot dogs in Canada quite a bit now that I think about it. But that's a weird thing to call a guy from Canada. - It's true, but I still think Salsas is a great character. Maybe he's not even Latin American. Maybe he's from like Eastern Europe and he's just a dude who loves Salsa. - He does go out of his way not to say Cuba, specifically. - Yeah, maybe he's from like, you know, Yugoslavia or the Czechoslovakia. And he's just a guy who loves Salsa. Maybe we should stop being racist. Maybe it's you and I who's all a character named Salsa and we're like, he's described as Cuban, but that's a very Mexican name. Maybe it's you and I that are the problem here. - I'm going to go ahead. I'm going to say, you know what? He's Cambodian until further notice. - It could work. - It could work. - Just illusion by the Khmer Rouge. Goes on a luxury line, explains why he's on a luxury liner going from going across the Pacific Ocean. Where's he going on a luxury liner from Miami to, you know, the DR in back? (laughing) - I love his political background. I love that he's continuing that with who we had stubs in the last book, you know, working for the party and everything. He's like, whole background there. And now we have this whole communist background for Salsa, so I enjoy it, I'm for it. - Yeah, it's funny because these books are very careful, I would say in that way to, that's sort of where the hardness of this comes from them too, to like, don't mistake these criminals as political actors at all, let me show you who the political actors are in these scenarios, you know? Just 'cause they're against like a sort of corporate structure doesn't make them Robin Hoods, you know? Just because they're like, you know, outside of the law doesn't make them like, you know, the natural sort of allies of union men and revolutionaries, you know? It's very, it's interesting because a lot of crime books, especially people like Jim Thompson and to a certain extent Elmore Leonard who have this sort of leftist sort of disposition wafting into their work, you know? That even if their characters aren't meant to be sort of stand-ins in any way for political righteousness, there is a like a critique to them, especially in Thompson, you know, that he definitely comes from that angle a lot of the time. And these, I think these books are very careful to be like, insistently a political, you know? Insistently a moral, you know? In a way that's fascinating. And again, like he never goes too far so it never feels cynical, it never feels repugnant in any way. It feels like, no, these men operate with a outside of any kind of moral system beyond make money, you know? Beyond do this job and make your money. That's really all it is. They'll kill whoever gets in their way but they're not interested in killing people, you know? And you can sort of identify the defective bad actors by how much interest they actually have in committing violence that's frequently who Parker's set against, you know? Especially in the later books, like the George all types who sort of revel in the cruelty of it, you know? Or the deadly edge hippies, you know? - Yeah, the sadistic characters. - Yeah. - These guys just, you know, they like to dress up in Frankenstein masks. Write a book about salsa called The Man and the Frankenstein Mask. Or as male men and trombone players, I love how when those guys are going on their highs, they're totally in character when they're riding up and down the elevator and they're all talking about their fake occupations with their fake beards and their mustaches and everything. - And I don't think how many of them seem driven by a hobby they really like, like guns or getaway cars or, you know, like, or gambling. They all have like a hobby that they're really into. They have an interest and the best way to fund that interest is crime. Let's be honest. - There's that great line about Fred Parnell where it's like, you know, he's listening to Artie Strand ramble on and on and on about this money that he's moving and they say, "Parnell didn't talk to people. "They only talk to his cars." - Yeah. - That's a great line. - But as far as the political bent, I think this book in particular does have a way of like making you sympathize with the highster characters more so because by making it a story about taking down an establishment, you know, that like this lazy establishment, this corrupt institution, you know, could easily stand in for any given government or whatever, you know. - But the institution is itself criminal and in opposition to standard society. - I think that's what's interesting about it is it's tempting to read it that way. It sort of goes out of its way to make it everything a reflection of the other in a way that you sort of can't pin it on, you know, like he, these are the corrupt power structure. Well, it's outside, you know, of course it's corrupt. It's outside of standard society. It only does a bad impression of standard, you know, polite, civilized society, you know. - Well, it's funny that conflict within Bronson where he's like, well, of course we're criminals. What are they thinking? And then he thinks, well, I am not a criminal, right? I mean, if I am everybody is, you know, every organization is a criminal organization. Everything is corrupt. It's funny to like have him go through this kind of interior like problem. I feel like the only two characters we didn't really get to at all is Amos Clee who's like an arms dealer who they get guns from right before they go over to Bronson's house. He's kind of a fun character. I can't remember if he comes back or not, but he's willing to buy back the guns when they're done with them for half price if they want to sell them back to him. - You know what's funny reading at this time, and this is a good, Amos Clee's a good segue to a movie, to the movie, is in the movie they have them buy the guns in the car. And I was like, why does he switch it from buying him an Amos's office like it is in the book? And I realized this time, am I wrong? - The office where Amos Clee has his office is the same building where the novelty amusement company is that gets knocked off, right? That's what the elevator operator doesn't like doing it, right? So they can't have them going back to the same building in the movie because all of the heights in the movie are committed by Cody and Macklin. So they have to move him out of that office. I was always, when I would see it, I was like, why they have this happen in a car instead of the way it does in the book, 'cause I just sort of glossed over that before. But anyway. - Yeah, that's funny. No, that is funny. I love too that like, you know, in all of his, if he had any thought at the time, how can I make this not dated? He didn't think, well, I probably shouldn't put two elevator operators in this book. (laughing) And the other character to mention which would also transition well into the movie is Bette Harro, Bette Harro, the woman that he's with at the beginning when they try to kill him. And take some sadistic satisfaction in torturing the hitman who comes to him, psychologically torturing him, and then runs off the Parker's gun for the next book is gonna set up the next book. She runs off, she takes his gun with him. - Yeah, I would say if, 'cause this book is pretty close to perfect in my mind as a perfect little crime book and as a culmination of the three books that the Bette character, and frequently like when the squares show up when the civilian show up and have an effect on the plot, I'm frequently less convinced by those characters. You know, they do feel like plot and travances a lot of time. Like the, you know, the meathead who kills the guy with the broadsword and the woman with the broadsword in the seventh. You know, those kind of characters, I'm sometimes less convinced by, I find Bette interesting, but Westlake seems to have no interest in her. That's why she feels like a bit of a contrivance. She's the kind of character that fucking, I keep going back to Jim Thompson. Jim Thompson would have a field day with that character. You know, that book would be the co-lead in a Thompson book. And I feel like Westlake is just like, doesn't really care about her and is trying to, is going through his Rolex of ideas, trying to find ways to get her out of there so that we can get on with it, you know? - Yeah, she definitely feels, I mean, she literally is a device to get us to the next book, you know, which it does kind of set the next book up. But yeah, I mean, in terms of the women, the female characters, you know, you find very few examples in these early books. It definitely feels like she's more of like, you know, femme-the-towel in this sort of not, you know, not in any way formulaic or, you know, standard book. So it does feel like a little bit of a, get this character out of here, but-- - Not that she's mad, it's just a little bit like, this book is so lean that this is a digression that he doesn't want to take. - You're happy to get her out of there. - Yeah, he's happy to get her out of there, you know? - Yeah, yeah, but she gets an expanded role in John Flynn's adaptation of The Outfit, which came out 10 years later, 1973. John Flynn, of course, the director of Rolling Thunder, bestseller, Alfred Justice. We love John Flynn here at the Pink Smoky's Great. - Fantastic. - And the outfit was adapted by Flynn with uncredited work by Walter Hill, and he stars Robert Duvall as the Parker character who's been renamed Earl Macklin. - Yeah, and not to keep bringing it up, but it's, this book has a very, or this movie has a very peck and pause, the getaway-esque feel to it, which is of course also Walter Hill, you know? - Yes, of course. - Sorry, but go on, I didn't-- - No, no, no, I know, glad you said that, because I feel like this movie, which we should just, you know, it's not very the lead here is great. I love the outfit, it's a fantastic film, but the changes, the interesting changes that it makes are the way that it adapts the book. It is so ingrained in crime films of the '70s, specifically that Walter Hill era, they add a dead brother, justification for Macklin kind of going against the outfit, which is very get-carter. - Yeah. - The multiple heists, the way that they're presented in the film, by the same perpetrator, by the same guys as very friends of any coil, which came out the same year. The whole chase aspect with the outfit kind of coming after them is very Charlie Barrick, also from the same year. - Yeah, also with Joe Don Baker. - Yeah, also with Joe Don Baker, and one of my favorite movies of all time. - Yeah. - I mean, this movie's just infused with that great '70s crime flick energy throughout, and just things that kind of like, obviously John Flynn was like thinking in that kind of term. - Well, it's interesting, because he tries to keep to the book as much as possible, but he has this central problem, which is that the hunter is the setup for this book, and the hunter is the hunter, it's complex, it's convoluted, it's its own entire story, and how do you get that entire story out to lead up to this thing? So he makes the decision of, I've gotta cut the hunter and replace it with something else. What do I replace it with? And that's why you have the dead brother and bet coming along and all of those sort of decisions. So the ways in which this movie is different from the book are almost exclusively related to, the hunter doesn't exist, you know, this isn't a point blank sequel, you know. - Right, Macklin gets, it's just fresh out of jail, he has not had a face change of any kind, obviously. So yeah, all these, yeah, our decisions are clearly made on like this has to be a standalone film where the set up is like they hit the outfit and that's why the outfits mad go, right? - Yeah, yeah, exactly. But I do think, one things that I really like about this adaptation as well, that you don't get in a lot of the Parker adaptations, is it understands what's interesting about the Parker book. Almost every good line, like go die somewhere else and good little moment, they are sure to put in here, you know, they have to cut some of the heists, they don't have enough room to do all the different heists, you know, and probably the budget. But it's like very careful, like it knows what's compelling in the books. And when you read the books, what readers like about them and make the books enduring, it has a very good sense of that. Like, oh, that's a good scene. Oh, that's a good line. We gotta have that in there. We gotta have that moment, you know, like making it sound like a Volkswagen. Like you just know it's not going to miss that opportunity, you know? - And the great lines that are original to the screenplay that Flynn made for them are would not be out of place anywhere in the book. Make it on the left side, well, yeah, I got a bad right ear, things like that, you know? - Yeah, it's so good. - Thought you said you'd be right back, pal, got held up. Like these are like cracks that I could hear Parker making, absolutely. - Yeah, now this is a book, we wrote a bunch for the website, a big piece about the Parker adaptations. And in that piece, I said that this is the best, it's not the best movie made from a Parker book. I still think that's point blank, but it's the most accurate Parker adaptation. This time, it's not that I felt that that was less true. I felt more the ways in which it's different than a Parker book this time than I had before. What do you think about that? Do you still think of this as being the most, the most Parker of the Parker adaptations? I mean, it's not like it's got super stiff competition. Beats made in USA, it beats, you know, Peter's-- - It's like, it's the playground. (laughing) - No, I mean, I think that that's just natural, having literally just read the book and then going right into the movie, you're kind of like be pretty conscious of the changes. But I think you're right in that Flynn understands what makes Parker exciting and interesting and what about Westlake, he should definitely keep, as opposed to switch around a little bit. And for that reason, I would say, this is a fantastic adaptation. If the basic idea is like, well, we can only have two characters pulling off all of these highest, it still has a lot of excitement behind it and like those heights that appear in the book, it doesn't have time to like follow a dime, you know? It doesn't have time to explain how, you know, a layoff works. But, you know, for the thrill aspect of it, just like going in and like, you know, getting in, how did he get inside? How do you control the room? To vault as Parker is absolutely the right spirit. And you would never think of Robert Duvall playing Parker while you're reading the books. But he's a great actor and he understands the character and he plays them perfectly. - Well, this is the thing, is I, watching it this time, I feel like everything but Earl Maclin is sort of pitch perfect to Parker. I think Robert Ryan is immaculate casting as Bronson. I think that, you know, Jodon Baker as Handy McCabe, even though they call him Cody, that's the most perfect casting in the world. I can't read, I can't read Handy McKay and not think of Jodon Baker. It's just ingrained in my mind. And there's no one. - Even though, even though Handy McKay has described as lean as a one by 12 in the book, which does not really describe Jodon Baker at all. But no, it's perfect. It's just like how Malcolm McDowell does not physically match Flashman. - Yeah. - But it's perfect to play him in the movie. - He just does it exactly right, you know? And he's tall enough too. You know what I mean? - Yeah, he's imposing for sure. - Yeah. There's just something about him that's perfect. He just every line you can hear coming out of Jodon Baker. And Jodon Baker's a fucking star. Jodon Baker's great. What a year walking tall Charlie Varick in this movie. What a fucking year. Very few people have ever had a year that good in movies. But I would say that Earl Maclin is just simply not that much like Parker. A, like if Parker had a brother, he's not going and getting revenge for want. You know, he's not checking in on his brother's widow to see how he's doing. He's not bringing somebody bet who set him up to be killed along with him to pour him coffee. You know? - And he's not remembering over his grandfather's stopwatch. - Yeah. And he's also, I don't think freaking out an anger and beating her up either. I think a lot of that stuff is not very parkourish and also not laughing with Cody and Hindi McKay. Like, you know, you're going to die in these steps or are we going to do it? Ah ha ha, he's not like a chuckle buddy with anybody the way that Earl Maclin is. As much as I fucking love Robert Duvall in this movie. Again, I think it's to make the plot work. You have to make him into this. You know what I mean? It's sort of almost, there's something about it that's almost like, you had to do something to make this work. If you want all of the other 95% of it to come in as close to being a parker book as possible, you got to futz around with Parker somewhat. Although I've got to say that this time it was again, it was like, this is the closest to being a parker book, but they just have never put Parker on screen. They just don't want to do it for some reason. Like he's really not on screen ever. You know? Yeah, I see what you're saying and I agree. But I think this is pretty close. I mean, who knows, maybe Mark Wahlberg will do it in the new Shane Black movie. Yeah, who wouldn't see? But I think what you say in the piece of the driver being one of the most Parker, Parker books is true. And is sort of wet-eyed and punchable-faced as Ryan O'Neill is. He does actually a good job sort of keeping it to a minimum in the way that I think sort of the essence of the Parker characters, how many times somebody says something to him and the narration is, there was nothing to say to that. You know what I mean? That's the essence of the Parker character is not talking. It's just being reduced to a minimum of action and motion and dialogue. Yeah, and again, the driver's Walter Hill. So he's obviously familiar with these books and definitely was trying to make a Parker movie, I think, with the driver. But yeah, I think it's a discipline of the screenplay and the narrative where Parker Macklin is the main character. He's just got to be more vocal. He's just got to say more. He's got to take charge more. He has to move events along. You can't show him writing letters. That's not very cinematic, obviously. So he's got to take charge to a certain degree and have kind of an inner conflict. This time I felt like watching it. It didn't seem as much like he's in it for the revenge for the brother. It's like, well, they're coming after me so I got a strike back against them. I did get like a little bit more of like, he's not necessarily sentimental about his brother and one's revenge. It's just kind of part of it. But I will say the scene. Oh, and Robert Ryan to a second favorite Robert Ryan performance of all time after House of Bamboo. I think he's just terrific, I agree with that. The scene with Cami, is that the character's name? - Cami, yeah. - Yeah, I can't think of the dirty dozen. Can't think of the actor's name now. - With Richard Jackel. - Richard Jackel, thank you. The scene with Richard Jackel, which is taken straight from the book. I mean, literally dialogue just planning right in there. The only difference being that, you know, Hey, the McKay, Cody is with Parker in that scene and is the one who was set up by the woman. But other than that, it's just like, you know, you just took, he's like, wow, that scene in the book is fantastic. That's the other thing I love too about the Parker books I've mentioned already in The Man with Getaway Face, but how Parker, it's just how important it is to like have a good car, you know, for what you need to do. Like the mechanics of like, you know, look into the hood, make sure it's good, have someone you trust, sell you that car. It's not just you just jumping behind the wheel and you're good to go. I love that, you know, the takes time that Wesley takes time to be like, it's important for these guys to like have the right equipment for what they're doing. So I love that he kind of continues that in the book. But yeah, this fantastic scene where this unstable brother has this wife who's just looking for trouble and she claims that Parker raped her to get the brother to try to kill him or to park her to kill the brother. But just stirs up this whole thing, you know, is just a great scene and I'm glad that that's one that made it pretty much untouched in the movie as it plays out like a great scene just like when you're reading the book. So there's a lot of great stuff. More of the cast, I mean, we got Shane Greer from out of the past, making an appearance. You got a reunion of Marie Windsor in Elijah Cook Jr., who of course were the couple from The Killing and Sterling Hayden is very much a predecessor to Parker in that movie. So that's great. And then of course, Toby Hooper had them reunited in Salem's lot years later. And then Joanna Cassidy's interesting inclusion. What's the word that John Flynn loves to use as a demo mode? - Demo mode. - Demo mode? - Demo mode, the mistress character, right? Even though she's technically his wife, she's obviously much, much younger than the Ronson character in this movie and part of like Robert Ryan's kind of sadness in this film is that he clearly has everything he could want. He has this beautiful young wife, but like he doesn't seem like he wants her and always constantly telling her to shut up and like acting like, you know, that's kind of how they translate the stuff in the book of him having this unhappy marriage, which isn't really a bad marriage. It's just like, there's nothing he can do with it. Like it doesn't make him happy, doesn't make her happy. So I kind of like that translation in the movie as well. - Yeah, yeah, I do. I think it's a little less interesting than the Willa of the book and the relationship they had. But I do think that their dynamic works well, 'cause she's not a pushover. It does feel like she feels like somebody who's like, I'm married to somebody respectable, not a criminal. You know, like I don't wanna sit and watch her, you know, like I'm somebody and he's somebody, but I'm somebody too. You know what I mean? And I'm with him 'cause I'm somebody. That's how I can land this, you know? And I do like their dynamic. I also like the detail of him auctioning his horses too, and that's where Maclin first approaches him. I like the ways in which I like all the changes they make to Bronson. I feel like they make major changes without altering the essence of the character at all. He feels like the same character in like alternate reality, you know, kind of thing. It feels like they sort of just moved the world, shifted the reality around him while not changing the character itself. Now, one thing I know you wanted to talk about, you were watching the football game he's watching, and it appears to be the Los Angeles Rams, right? They're based in Los Angeles. Los Angeles Rams playing their traditional rivals, the San Francisco 49ers, right? That's what it appears to be on TV. And you see very clearly number 17 drops back to throw a pass. And I thought, well, what's happening in this game actually? Number 17 on the San Francisco 49ers, that was not Roman Gabriel's number in the early 70s. Are they showing a game from another time? It was number 17. I looked it up and number 17 is John Isenbarger, who was a wide receiver, right? And he did, in fact, have a few pass attempts that year. And I thought, oh, are we seeing on screen? He had one pass attempt in 1973. He had four pass attempts in 1972. Is this, do we have footage of John I wide receiver, John Isenberger's lone pass attempt? And it was like, this cannot be right. He is not dropping back out of the shotgun throwing a pass attempt. And then I thought, actually, you know what? I bet that I'm seeing these colors wrong on this low-tie TV. I bet it is the St. Louis Cardinals that they're actually playing. And that would make a hell of a lot more sense than it would be Jim Hart number 17 dropping back to play against them. And I looked it up and in fact, yes, the Rams who did not play the Cardinals frequently back in that era played the St. Louis Cardinals on December 10th, 1972, which is the time they would have been filming the movie. So it all works out. So I thought for a second, like, oh, this is really fascinating. We're seeing John Isenberger wide receiver throw a pass. What is going on here? But it's actually, no, no, it's Jim Hart number 17, St. Louis Cardinals, great. You know, I'd be fucking surprised if he's in the hall of fame or anything like that, but a, but an interesting player and quite good in his day. He made the Pro Bowl several times. I would be shocked if Jim Hart was ever a Pro Bowl, but certainly an excellent player who played in the league, fucking forever. He was one of those guys who had the, the like record for oldest player in the league. I think he played till he was like 40, Jim Hart, he played forever. At any rate, that's what happens when I watch him with the movie and there's a single three second clip of not even a full play on a TV. - We'll have to follow this up with an episode where we talk about Poltergeist and the football game that's on TV and that and you can explain what's happening in that particular game. - Well, I was, I was like, who the hell is 17 on the 49ers? That's not Roman Gabriel's number. What's going on here, my friends? I gotta get to the bottom of this. Otherwise, people are gonna be very disappointed in me. - Adaptation wise, I found it interesting. The character names that got changed. Obviously we all know what's like, we would not get permission to use the name Parker unless a studio is willing to commit to a series of films based on his books. So that's why we have Walker and Macklin, et cetera, all these different replacement names for Parker and this one, of course, Cody. - Wait, I'm being a fucking idiot. Hold on, I'm just actually thinking through this. Roman Gabriel's the Rams quarterback. So it wouldn't have been 17 on the Rams anyway. It would have been, who was the 49ers quarterback? Was it Steve Spurrier in '72? I think it was college football coach, great Steve Spurrier. There's no way his number was 17. Yes, it was Steve Spurrier, Steve Spurrier number 11. Yes, I was, I was got that much more right than I thought I was going to get that. Okay, sorry, go on. - It's interesting that Handy McCabe becomes Cody in the movie. - Yes. I guess he is a recurring character, obviously in the Parker books. So that would make sense. But it's just funny to have all these minor characters like Alma and Menor and Kemi, kind of maintain their names while all the main characters kind of all get shuffled. And even Bed, played by Karen Black in the movie, a very different version than we see in the book, but still as that same name, Bed Harrow is the same name from the book. So it's funny how he was like, you can't use this name, this name, this name. - And even Bronson becomes Mailer. - Yeah. - I guess I thought Norman Mailer was cool at the time. - Well, I asked him to think Bronson becomes a star at that point. And when I read it now, it's like, you think of Charles Bronson when I read the word Bronson in the 70s. - I was convinced, when I didn't remember the books, when I saw Payback, that that was a thing that Brian Hecklund had done in honor of Charles Bronson. I was like, that wasn't the original character. Oh, it was? Oh, weird. - Yeah, that's a good point, it's a good point. - Yeah. And it's such a different character, but that's something that actually shocked me when he's gonna start the torture, and she's like repulsed by it, you know? 'Cause in the book, she's like hot for torture. That's the whole character. She's getting horny to cut toes off or whatever it is Parker's threatening to do. And then the movie, you know, you get Karen Black looking away and disgust. And that actually surprised me this time was like, oh, I thought that was gonna be a point of bringing them together. But that is something-- - In fact, coming off toes is something Parker steals from another character from the book in the book. - Yeah, but that character, I do think, is what makes it essentially not Parker, is Parker's not going to put up with somebody who set him up to be killed the way she did in the book. He's not gonna bring somebody along to be pals with and talk about his old grand bappy with. - For sure, although she's a great addition to the movie, and I think she's probably what makes the movie great is her performance. - Yeah, this is what I think of one of John Lin's three classics, right, with Rolling Thunder and Out for Justice. I'm always surprised when I mention Out for Justice to people because A, they confuse it with above the law on Mark for Death. And I always wanna say no, it's the genuinely great Steven Segal movie. It has a tone and demeanor and me in completely different from every other Segal movie, and that it's like you should watch out for justice in sort of like a down and dirty exploitation film mindset and that William Forsyth and that film is a force of nature and fucking amazing. And just go into it with an open mind and it's really something else. It's really, really quite good. - Yeah, it's been great to see Flynn to have kind of resurgence like his contemporary Larry Cohen, you know, like people actually really love him now and even if they don't love Out for Justice though, they definitely talk about the outfit, they talk about Rolling Thunder. - Yeah. - So it's great to see that. - And he did in my mind what is the best or most effective of all of the Death Wish knockoffs with defiance, when sort of Death Wish knockoffs were solidified, house-ified as a genre by 1980, the Jan Michael Vincent movie Defiance is like the best of those. It's sort of, I don't know that you want a less hair-brained Death Wish 3, but that's definitely what it is. And there's something that's sort of interesting about Flynn as a filmmaker. He just sort of goes where the winds are blowing. He's a very classic journeyman in that way. And if that the winds by 1990s are blowing you all the way over to Brainscan, that's just where you're going to end up, right? That's what John Flynn is, but to sort of be in the thick of like Death Wish, you know, type movies in 1980. And he does a very fascinating job with it. It has a kind of like dignity to it that a lot of those movies don't and an unwillingness to be completely ugly, you know? And so I enjoy Defiance too. Unrolling Thunder is obviously a super classic written by Paul Schrader, superior taxi driver in every way. I think that's the universal consensus, right? Written by Paul Schrader, better than taxi driver on Rolling Thunder. And then of course, the-- And I love Best Seller from the 80s, which is written by Larry Cohen actually and has a amazingly convoluted plot which if you love collateral, you love Michael Man's collateral, this was the original, right? How did you like Brian Dinehie in the Tom Cruise Roll? - I've had a great movie, but a lot of fun. So I love Flynn-- - Fantasticly fun movie. - Yeah, yeah, love Flynn and I love this movie. We barely talked about Timothy Carey, who was so great as Menor and the moment where it's like, where Parker in the book shows up and flat out murders this guy. - Yeah. - And then in the movie, he just shoots him in the hand and yet it seems so much more brutal and vicious to shoot him in the hand while he's playing poker with his buddies is great. - And then the way he gets it later on. I love that when they're doing the police ambush, the car that drives up with Timothy Carey in the front seat, laughing like chuckling. I love that shot of him being like, (laughing) and right before he bites it, there's something that's so great about Timothy Carey and everything. He's really, he's just a flavor your soup always needs. - For sure, I love too that they add that scene with the outfit trying to put a hit on Cody and Macklin and doing such a bad job of it. You kind of appreciate it like, you fucking amateurs, you know, you can't set anything up the way. A Macklin or a Cody or a Parker could do it. You just kind of fail. If you're lucky, you'll get away with killing Karen Black and that's that. - Great car crash where the car explodes and the other one falls like four feet in the embankment. It's one of those things that I love in a lower budget movie of that era where they clearly don't have money to send like cars flying off ramps and stuff. So the sort of like blunt brutality of it makes it really effective. It's like, that looks like it was a car wreck that would have sucked to be in. And I can imagine being in that car wreck in a way I can't imagine my car flying off a pier and do a helicopter, you know? - And it's surreal too, the way that embankment really just like juts straight down and you're like, whoa, what did they just fall down? And like it just looks like the road ceases to exist. - And they just drove into wages of fear for a second. - Yeah, just every roadway being unnecessarily treacherous. - That's great, it's a great movie. And I think, again, I think still think it gets closest to the tone of a Parker book than any other movie has. - For sure. - That's based on a Parker novel, you know? - Yeah, for sure. And it's, and I say that even hand, I finally saw Mezasek, which is great, but very French. It's just a, it's too French to be archer-esque. And I think that that's like not to keep bringing it to Jim Thompson. One of the funny things about Jim Thompson is how much better the French do Jim Thompson than Americans do that population of 1280 being turned into Coop de Chorcheon and a hell of a woman getting turned into Serene Noir. Those are the two best Jim Thompson adaptations by far. Any time other countries touch the Parker books, it is, it loses its essence. He's just such an American fucking thing. He's so American down in this core. - I agree, no, keep it America. Even if it's gotta be Mark Wahlberg. (laughs) - Looking to, to do to this movie, what he did to fucking truth about Charlie, can't wait. (laughs) - The outfit is great. We're gonna do the Morna next, right? - We're gonna do that. I'd love to do the Morna. It's funny 'cause all of them, when I was first reading them, I was like, wow, the hunter, this is fantastic. Surely this must be the best one. Then I read with "Man with the Getaway Face" and I was like, wow, this is gotta have a reputation for being one of the best ones. Then I read the outfit and it's like, wow, this must have a reputation for being the best one. And I remember reading the Morna and distinctly thinking, there's no way this has a reputation for being one of the best ones, but I love it so much. That's my memory of the Morna. Is that like, I can't imagine this. Anyone thinks it's their favorite, but I might tell people this is my favorite just 'cause nobody else is picking it. - Yeah, I remember when we first read these books and we're comparing notes and you were like, I love the Morna. I was like, the Morna of those first six, really? I think I was getting ready to dig in on the Morna. - I'm excited to reread it for that reason because I remember being like the weakest of the first six, but still. - It's the first one where Parker really gets his balls put in a ringer, which I like about it. Things go badly in the other ones, but it's the first one where it's like, just people are just kicking him and the nuts over and over, which is which I really like in the Parker books. That sort of becomes the fun of the later ones. You know, is just watching him get knocked off the ladder and pulling himself out. - Just how deep he's gonna sink into the mud. Yeah. - Yeah. - Absolutely. And the fun is also getting to spend time with Claire. I think we all agree with that. - Still a ways on, fortunately. (both laughing) - Who is, let's ask at the end of this episode 'cause we've been in a little bit, is who is the best casting that they've cast for Parker? Is it still Lee Marvin? Do we still think it's Lee Marvin? And even if that point blank isn't the most parkery book? - I mean, man, it's hard to top Lee Marvin in just any aspect, you know? - Yeah. - And certainly Peter Coyote's not doing it, you know? So. (both laughing) - And if we're not doing it, and if we're not-- - Not doing it, and if we're not. - In a park adaptation, I don't think you can top Lee Marvin, even though he's not exactly the Parker of the books, he's Lee Marvin. - Yeah. - It's a great movie, so. - And I think that, and I think that Robert Ryan is Bronson. I think that that's-- - Yeah. - Very much better. - I can't not see him, even when I was reading the book, I had him, Robert Ryan in my head, absolutely. - And in, like I said, it makes me angry when there's not Jodon Baker in any of the Parker movies, it makes me angry, he's just so Andy McKay, makes me angry. - Although the opposite problem, though, of casting Robert Ryan is that he mentions that Bronson put on his like 20 pounds overweight in the book. - Yeah. - And Robert Ryan is like a frickin' stick. - Yeah, we should mention that this is one of Robert Ryan's final performances, which he made at the end when he was dying, essentially, 'cause he wanted to work as much as possible. His wife had died, and he wanted to bury himself in the work, and he's clearly on his last legs and this is dynamite as he is. John, did you watch on the TCM app, the host intro for this? - I didn't get a chance to watch it, what's it's my about? - Oh, my God. Do you know who does their intro for the outfit? It's, she's filling in for the normal host. - Caron Black. - Madeleine Stowe, talking about how much she likes the outfit. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yes, this is why I texted you immediately. - Oh. - He's, she's 65 and she looks fucking dynamite. She looks incredible. - Wow, I love her even more, that's a meant to me. - I know, I know, she's your favorite. She's your favorite. - She's grabbing Brian Ben Ben's arm, she's like, we're watching the outfit tonight. - You know what's interesting? - You know what's interesting? - She's watching the outfit on TV and he comes in, she's like, you want me to turn to the football game? - I mean, he's like. - No, no, no, leave it on. Have you seen him though? He became kind of the Silver Fox. He's kind of, he's got to be something about him. - He's creeping out there. - I trust your judgment. - He looks, he's a bit of a Silver Fox nap. He has aged into his looks in a way that I think is finally dignified for her to be with him. - I would definitely trust her judgment. So I'm not surprised to hear that. - Anyway, this is all just an intro to next week. We'll be talking about the Radio Land murders here on the Pink Smoke podcast. - Anything else you want to say about the outfit, John? - No, I think we should end on Radio Land murders. We should end every episode on talking about Radio Land murders. - Goodbye, everybody! (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)