[MUSIC PLAYING] Hello, and thanks for tuning in to the glossy podcast. I'm your host, Jill Manoff. And today, I'm thrilled to be sitting down with Jonathan Thimke, founder and designer of his 15-year-old namesake fashion brand. Next month, Jonathan will be returning to New York Fashion Week with some fun surprises. Plus, his brand has been busy expanding its physical presence by opening stores. I wanted to ask Jonathan how the brand has continued to grow, despite taking on no outside investments. I also wanted to learn how he remains inspired season after season, though I know he literally dreams up dress designs. Welcome, Jonathan. Thank you so much, Jill. Thank you so much for having me here. And it's such an honor to be here and to share my story with you and your audience. So I'm really grateful and excited to chat with you. Oh my gosh, you as well. Tell me where you are today. And what do I see behind you? Is that spring/summer collection over there? Yes, this is part of the spring/summer collection behind me. I'm actually in my Atelier, my studio in West Hollywood. We are a Los Angeles-based brand. We started the brand in New York, but decided to move here six years ago. So our Atelier is based in LA, and that's where I'm talking to you from. Oh my gosh, I want to dig into that a little bit throughout this conversation. You kind of have a theme of doing things your own way and experimenting and doing what works for your company. Obviously, 15 years in, you have this great longevity that's worked to your advantage. Let's start on a fun note. I don't often have folks who are both business-minded and creative-minded on the podcast, but love the talking creative side of things. Let's talk inspo. What was I referring to? You told me that you're dreaming and dresses, but I want to know where else you're getting inspiration as well. Yeah, I get inspiration from so many different places, and it's always a question that sometimes I love answering the questions and whether they dread the question, because I don't always know where my inspiration comes from. Sometimes I will be sitting in Paris, and I'll see a really beautiful person walking by in a really interesting outfit. And that'll make me think of something, or sometimes I'll be in store working with clients, and they'll be like, oh, I wish you did this in another color, or does I wish the skirt had a little bit less volume? I wish it had more volume, and then it evokes an idea. Sometimes I'll-- you mentioned the dreaming dresses. It's very true. Sometimes I'll literally be sleeping. It's actually happened to be last night with footwear. But I'll just, in a dream, see a pair of shoes or a dress. And sometimes I'll wake up, and I'll just jot it down or write it in my notes on my phone to try to remember what it is that I saw. And sometimes I don't. I always think about what are the dreams that I didn't wake up and remember. Someone told me that you only remember the dreams if you wake up in the middle of them, and the ones that you sleep through you don't remember. So I heard that. So it kind of haunts me, and I was like, oh, I wish I'd like-- But then I don't sleep very well because I'm constantly trying to wake up to remember the dreams in case there's a genius idea in there. Why are we missing? I'm lost in the dreams. But it's sad. It's funny because I really, yesterday, had a shoe that actually I saw in my head. So yeah, it's fun. It's like the type of thing where you just-- when you want inspiration and you want-- you're sitting there in front of the drawing board, and you're like, what are we doing this season? There's times when I'm like, oh, you get stuck, and then other times where-- and then the times that you're not really looking, and you're just kind of like with family or friends or on vacation, you get all these ideas. So other places I try to go to the Premier Bizion, the fabric show in Paris. I get really inspired by fabrication and textiles, seeing all the mills from Europe, and all their new, innovative fabric qualities and techniques and manipulations. I also love embroidery. My grandfather had a lace melt in Tehran in the '70s, and I've shared this story before. So if anyone's heard this already, sorry if I'm boring you. But he had a lace melt. He had a lace melt in the '70s, and pre-revolution, and then right before the revolution, he left. And he actually left the mill behind. But I always try to find a way to incorporate embroideries and keep pure and lace in the collection as a homage to my family's heritage. Oh, I love that. Well, you mentioned a couple somewhat. Sometimes you're inspired by people, which is interesting. But tell me who you're designing for. Who is your shopper? Has she been with you for the long haul? There's definitely a customer that's been with the brands for a very long time. I think for me, it's something that I take a lot of pride in with Sumkai is that we really try to design a collection that is very inclusive and brings people together. And trying as hard as we can to have something for different types of women, women that like more coverage, women that like to be sexy, women that like to show their skin, women that like to be covered. And because we are so diversified in the product and the end use, we really are able to kind of take something and have something for everybody. Even just some of my favorite moments are being in store and seeing like a mother and daughter come in together and be able to like to shop and try things on together and seeing like two people bonding and sharing an exciting moment and expressing themselves through fashion together or even just like friends coming into the store together and trying things on. And it's like sharing like a loaf of bread in a way where you just like with the little people you love. So yeah, for me, it's really about bringing people together and not alienating anyone and trying to get through silhouette, through fabric to try to have something for most people. So nice. Well, I love-- I know you spend a lot of time in your stores. Let's talk about your stores a little bit and why you value that time, why your customer values the time and how many stores are we talking here? Yeah, so we have four stores right now plus our online. So by points of direct distribution. Something about me that I love being in store, I started working in retail when I was 14 years old. I worked in a sweater outlet. My neighbor ran a manufacturing company for knitwear. And on Sundays, the factory turned into an outlet. And when he told me this, I was like, oh, my god, I love clothes. I love fashion. I'd love to come. And he's like, well, you can help me work the outlet on Sundays. So I'd be there. And I started just working with people who would come in and just sell them a sweater. It's literally out of a box. So that was my first step into fashion. And then I started working at a local boutique through high school. And it really just was so rewarding to be able to build a relationship with someone that came in and needed an outfit to feel confident about an interview they were going to or to-- if they had a date schedule, they wanted to look good for the date and being able to work with them and to get them ready to feel like confident enough to like, OK, I'm going to do this. I like the way I look. I feel confident. I'm ready to do this. And that is like, it's really therapeutic. And sometimes I feel selfish because I do get such a reward from-- I feel so rewarded from that experience and being able to style someone and see them try something. But yeah, so I love being in store. And that's really something that gives me the most satisfaction. Even now, we have our store in South Hampton, our store. We have a store in Beverly Hills, a store in Soho, and a store in Dallas. And whenever I'm in this store, I just really love to be hands-on. And last night I was in our Beverly Hills store. And someone was like, do you work here? I was like, yeah, I work here. Like, what do you need? And they were like, oh, can I get this shoe in a size, whatever, 38? And of course, I ran to the back to grab it for them. And I guess when I was gone, someone told them that I was the founder and the designer. And I just got on my knee to help her put the shoe on. And she's like, no, no, no, get off the floor. I feel bad that you're on your knees putting the shoe on. I'm like, this is what I love to do. And I get it. Maybe she felt like whatever she felt embarrassed that she shouldn't have. But that's what I love to do. I love to dress up. I love to give them that experience when they come in. And it's just like, at this point, doing it since I'm 14, it's in my blood. And when I'm in the store, I'm at the service of the client. So that's really what satisfies me. I mean, the fact that that makes you feel selfish. And it's like the ultimate designer shopping experience. Hello. Anyway, best of both worlds. But are more stores coming? Yes, we're seeing such great traction with the stores. It's one of our fastest growing and upward trending businesses. So it's definitely in our pipeline to open more stores. And for me, at this point, I was thinking about wanting to have that touchpoint with the stores and being able to visit them. Next week, I go to the Hamptons to be in store and to do an event there. And I always want to be able to, as much as possible, obviously, as you continue to grow. It's harder to be in every store all the time. But especially at the beginning, I think it's really important to make sure that you set the tone for the customer service standards and the way the collections presented and the way that people are experiencing the clothes and being styled. And so for me to be able to be in the stores and train the staff and work with the staff and the stylists on just how to give them the Simka experience and the customer the Simka experience is important to me at this stage. Definitely. Well, I have a majority of your sales still happening through retail partners. And are you also experiencing maybe, I don't know, a shift in how you think of a department store versus a specialty store? I know a lot of brands are seeing a lot of great traction and promise in specialty store channels. What's happening there? I love specialty stores so much. It's another one of my passions. I think that something that I see in specialty stores is really the person that's coming in, the owner of the store, is equally responsible for paying the bills, working the floor, maintaining the relationship with the customer, doing the buying. Sometimes they're unpacking boxes. They're literally doing everything and they'll come into our showroom in New York and see the collection. And they're literally thinking, I'm buying this in a size six for my customer duty. I'm buying this in my customer, in a size five for Michelle. Like they know who their customer is and they have an ability to like really understand their customer and bring them the product that's gonna work best for them. And then they're also, they see it through. They'll make sure that product, you know, goes to that person. Where sometimes with department stores, you know, the buyers like in an office, she's buying like 70 brands and you know, she doesn't have that, you know, she doesn't necessarily know exactly who the customer is. So I think that the specialty stores are really at an advantage because they do have that direct relation with the customer. They know what, you know, they know their customers by name and by face and their body type. So, and I think that the customers are really excited about that, you know, curation of product that's like happening for them. And that's like, you know, they're coming and they're seeing some kind, they're bringing them what they need of a collection. So, and I think that, you know, post COVID, you know, there was so much of that like digital experiences and, you know, e-commerce booming. And I think that after, you know, COVID people did, were excited to return to in-person and experience stores, you know, and then they missed it. And I think that we're still seeing that they're excited to come in and they're excited to have an experience. And I know for even myself, like I love, I still love shopping in person because you can touch and feel the clothes. And yeah, you can try it on and you can see things and feel things, especially if you're a tactile person. - Yeah. - So. - You and me both, all about IRL shopping. And speaking of comebacks, like, talk to me about New York Fashion Week. Those who listen to the show know I'm a Fashion Week nut. Excited to have you back. Where did you go and what brought you back? - Yeah, so I took a year off from Fashion Week. I think that, you know, one of the things about the shows in Fashion Week for me is that I feel that it's really a labor of love. And the team, you know, it's a really big project. Like the whole team, you know, really gets very excited and we work really hard. It's a huge time and energy. It requires a lot of time and energy, I'll say. So, you know, with this year when we opened the stores, this year was a big like retail push for us. And, you know, I wanted to make sure that it could be in store as much as possible. Really think about the merchandising for each territory and think about the products that, you know, each store needed and, you know, optimizing the products that we brought online. So, I really wanted the team and myself to be super focused on the merchandising strategy for each store and also being able to be in store and work with customers. And now that we're seeing that we, you know, have a good handle and a good, you know, grip on that. And I really did miss New York Fashion Week not doing it. It was kind of like intermittent fasting. So, you know, I was just like craving it and I missed it. And, you know, being in store, actually, I've heard so many clients just say, oh, are you doing a show? We want to come to your show. And I felt that, you know, being so focused on the clients and meeting their needs and, you know, being there for them as well, you know, I really wanted to do a show so I could have them there and give them that experience as well. - Yeah, I like your approach. It's like, we're not going to do it just because that's what to do. Like, it's going to work for you this season. It speaks to your goals and your priorities. I know at one point you showed it, Miami Fashion Week and you were showing resort and you were showing swimwear because that was a big, I don't know, push for you, Sydney Fashion Week at one point. I don't know, you can tell me why that worked for you, but yes, is that kind of what it's about? It's about leaning into the opportunity as it makes sense as it corresponds with your goals. - I think definitely leaning into opportunities and seeing if, you know, opportunities are presented to us and, you know, things come up. I think trying, experimenting. I'm all about experimenting and, you know, trying different things. I love to, you know, even in meetings, you know, someone has an idea, I'm like, let's test it. Let's try it. Like, why say no just because we haven't done it that way before and, you know, let the data, you know, let us know if this is a good decision. Obviously, if I think it's, you know, not brand Jason or it doesn't, you know, make sense, but usually I'm always open to testing things. So when the Sydney opportunity came our way, I love Australia and we have a really nice distribution and, you know, we have a nice presence in Australia. So when the opportunity came to present at Sydney Fashion Week, I was excited about it. It was a little bit a few years ago. And in Miami, we have been this like, you know, really great swim business. I love, I love designing a swimmer because I think that, you know, being in a swimsuit is, I feel very vulnerable when I put a swimsuit on and going. I think a lot of people, you know, putting a swimsuit on can make you feel vulnerable. So I really want to kind of take that and find a way to, you know, bring confidence to putting a swimsuit on and having the right layers to like cover your arms when you're going to the pool bar or to like, you know, cover your hips if you're going to sit down for lunch and, you know, finding those ways to be like confident pool side and in the pool, like for a ruching or even like lining some of our swimsuits in, you know, a certain fabric that might help kind of smooth out your skin and your body. So, but still being very fashion-forward, modern, sensual and like, you know, with an attention to detail. - So circling back to fashion week, can you give us any teasers? Like, what can we expect this season? - Yeah, so this season is very interesting. I was really inspired by fabric and by materials. And after I started pulling all these fabrics, it reminded me of this picture of my mother on her wedding day. And I just want to put this out there. This is not going to be like a bridal collection by any means, but it is, you know, she wore a dress that the fabric was made by my grandfather. And, you know, it's, I don't even want to say too much about it, but it's just when I looked at everything as we were putting it together in the fabrics that I was gravitating towards. It really reminded me of this picture that was sitting in our dining room growing up. It was like kind of, we had a piano in our dining room. Sounds kind of weird, but it was like off to the side. And there was like this little picture of my mother on her wedding day on the piano. And I just like looked at this picture every day growing up. And I just like, I was like, I texted my mom, I'm like, mom, can you send me that picture that was on the piano? And she sent it to me and I was like, yes, this is like, this is kind of it. And I don't know, I like, so it's so strange, like in the last few years, like I would say in the last year, year and a half, I just like wake up missing my parents so much. My parents live in New York and I live in LA. And I like, I don't know if it's because like, now I have my own kids, but I miss them so much every morning. And, you know, I know that like time is so precious with them. And I really want to, you know, we just went to Sicily together. And I just, you know, I was definitely like, I would say maybe had a stage growing up where I was a bit more rebellious and like was it listening to them and like doing everything wrong? And, you know, a problem child, but I think that now, but it's interesting how like I'd certain points your, your, yeah, so I so this is this collection to tribute to my mom and this picture that I have this on my piano growing up. Oh my gosh, I wonder for the same age. I hear what you're saying. I'm so relating to about the valuable time with the folks. And would you say it's the most most personal collection today? Do you typically have a very personal inspo going in? Not typically, no, not typically, but there's also we might. Yeah, there's, there's a few other surprises. I don't want to give too much away because I want everyone to stay tuned to see what it is. But it's definitely going to be like modern and, you know, very aligned with what we've been doing and what this kind of customer is looking for us from us for. So, yeah, tune in. Speaking of, I mean, Miami, you have a large shopper base in Florida. I know, but I also know, are you kind of pushing to be more international or have you always had a large presence like in the UK? I know you recently did an amazing shop and shop at Selfridges. And I don't know what's going on internationally. Yeah, international has actually been a really exciting market for us. We did just open a shop in Selfridges. We also have a really nice business in the Middle East. So we have a shop that we opened in Rubayot in the Middle East. And we have a corner shop at Harrods. And we're working on a few other ones. I think that for us, international is so exciting. And again, there is like a different, I would say, a different customer there. I think it's always fun to think about how people shop in different regions and different areas. And that's something that always excites me. It's like a, you know, that type of understanding and the cracking of the code, I would say. Like, I think every region has like a code to crack in terms of what they're looking for from the brand or how they dress. And, you know, certain territories are really like dressy and get really dressed up for events and certain, you know, territories go to weddings more casually. And, you know, so every region has their nuance in, you know, the way that they dress for occasions and dress for things. So it's really been a fun challenge to learn about each market and how to sort the product differently for each one of those markets. 15 years in, would you say your company is basically a well-oiled machine in that you're kind of nimble? Like you said, you can cater, localize the assortment for the market. And I know we talked about pandemic and kind of the different trends that were like, I don't know, waving in and out. Talk to me about the ability to do that and what's happened over the last couple of years. Yeah, that's like the, I call it the swing of the pendulum because, you know, during COVID, it was like you couldn't sell dresses. You couldn't sell like high heels. You know, people were very much, like say at home, focus on knitwear and focus on, you know, we did like a sweat pant drop. We did, you know, we made some masks out of fabric that we had. And that was kind of what was driving the business, like sweatpants and sweaters and knitwear and masks. But as things started opening up and people were able to, you know, go out, we saw like a really crazy demand for dresses and metallics and like revenge dressing was, was what we called it. And I think that what's interesting about this moment and where we are right now is I think that it feels a little bit like the pendulum is kind of settling and it's not swinging so hard. People are excited about, you know, dresses for occasions, but are also like, you know, the sweatpants, they, the, the 100 pairs of sweatpants they bought during COVID are probably worn out at this point and they're ready for like a new, you know, clean set that they can wear when they're traveling. Or, you know, hanging out with friends this time, not alone, hanging out with friends. So, yeah, I think that it's interesting. And I think that for us, we're seeing, you know, for me as a designer, it's always exciting when the customer is open to a great dress and a great pair of high heels, but also, you know, a cool sweater and it's nice. It's like there's not one specific product that it's all about one thing. It's nice that it's safe for us at this moment. Are you the full owner of the business? Do you have investors and is that a possibility moving forward, even maybe selling the company one day? So, yeah, so I, the business is privately held. We have not taken on any outside investment. And, you know, this, this business is really kind of, you know, been started from the ground up, no outside funding. It was very organically grown. And, you know, I am definitely open to the idea. We, you know, talked about it. And I think that at some point, you know, to grow to the next level, it could be something that we would entertain at the same time. We're also very happy and, and, you know, just moving along and growing the business organically. So, I think not no, but, you know, I think it would have to be the right partner and the right investor that is aligned on our brand values. And, yeah, yeah, well, tell me what's challenging you now. And I got, I have to ask like this may not be the challenge, but have you been kind of unscathed or where there were some lessons learned in terms of, well, there's kind of, there's a lot of movement happening on the wholesale front and on the marketplace front with the consolidation of Neiman and Saks and others shutting down. Like, how do you feel about that to have you maybe changed your, I don't know, deal approach to contracts, what have you? So, yeah, I think it's been really interesting. I think in general, the market and like the retailer landscape has been very interesting, you know, I think that from our end, we've just been as mindful as possible to diversify our outlets. And I think that having the retail stores and, you know, also having such a strong, especially store business, I would say that our specialty store business and our wholesale and our department store business is probably equally in size. So we are constantly thinking about how to diversify our, you know, our outlets and like, and the people that we work with so that it's not that the rug will be pulled from underneath us if something is to go down. And so I do love, you know, department stores. I love, you know, shopping at Neiman's and Saks as well. So I hope it works out and it could be very cool, the merger and, you know, just bringing things together. But yeah, I'm excited to see what happens. And I think that, you know, I always look at these changes as opportunity and for the future and I'm excited to see how the retail landscape evolves going forward. Yes, any challenges involved with operating out of LA or is it just a benefit? I would say challenges and benefits. I would say that in New York, you know, we were based in the garment district and we had like so much access to like trims and fabric and buttons and, you know, even just seeing clothes from like cash and carry stores. And here we're, you know, in LA and we really operate to our own, you know, be to our own drum and we're in our little bubble. I would say from a challenge perspective, I would say that it's, you know, it's not always easy finding talent, even like seamstresses or, you know, the design team, we have a really strong, amazing design team, but it wasn't easy to find them. And, you know, a lot of them did relocate from New York or other, you know, other areas. But it is not easy finding fashion, like products, fashion, especially with like a, like a elevated taste level or knowledge for like high-end construction. But we have an amazing team right now, which I, you know, I'm really grateful for and consider family. But that was definitely a challenge. I think that also being in LA, you do have, because there isn't so much around us, you know, it is, I would say there's probably less turnover than we had in, you know, New York. I think that in New York, being in the garment district, there's so much, there's so many fashion brands and there's a lot of options for someone, like where to go. And I think that you just, in LA, there's something about like, you kind of like sink your heels in and get comfortable. And, yeah, and there's a laid-back energy about being in LA that, you know, in New York, it's a little bit different. Like, we, I say we very much operate like a New York company. Like, you know, the people here have that like New York hustle and, you know, that, that passion. But at the same time, there is like an ease. We have to take a lot of meetings outdoors and we do like our design meetings outside on our patio. So there is something very like West Coast feeling about working here and it's nice. Nice. How would you describe the state of where you're, where you are in the industry in terms of like, well, for a minute there, luxury booming, thriving. And now it's slowing down. But also there's fast fashion on the lower tier as like driving billions of dollars despite all the sustainability talk, nobody cares. They just want cheap stuff. But no, how do you feel? And in terms of your placement, like, is it more stable? Is it just as erratic as any other market? I would say for the most part, our business has been pretty stable. And, you know, we are actually, you know, growing, the businesses are growing. We are up to last year, which is great across the board. But I would say I think that for us, we sit in an interesting place where the luxury customer will pick up one of our garments and be like, oh, wow, like I expected this to be, have another zero on the price tag, or I expect this to be more expensive. And I've literally heard that in store. We'll be like, wow, you should make this could be more expensive. Or, you know, I did, wow, this is like so much less than I thought it would be. So I think for them, you know, if they are being a bit more conservative and more thoughtful with their purchases, I think that they can come to Simkai because they feel that the brands and the product is made with, you know, the same attention to detail or construction or fabrications as, you know, a luxury product. That's something that I take a lot of pride in really making sure that, like, all of our fabrics are, you know, soft on the skin or, like, our finishings are well constructed the way that the, you know, the way that we use lace when we're sewing a garment. We try to, like, delete the seams and make things feel as seamless and as, like, beautiful and integrated as possible. So I think that from a designer customer standpoint, they can come in and they really see the quality and craftsmanship. And for them, you know, the price is attractive if they're being more conscious. And then I think that, um, so from that, from that point of view, I do think that maybe that has worked in our advantage. Um, and then I think that with fast fashion, it's, you know, they might, I've seen a lot of, you know, different, I don't want to say names, but a lot of different brands knock us, knock us off or copy some of our designs. And, you know, as much as they can try, they're not going to spend that attention to detail and, you know, at the prices, they won't get that same fabric or that, you know, the construction, the seams might be janky or, you know, the fabric might not be exactly constructed the same. So, um, yeah, I think that we have, we've kind of like created our own little niche of, um, and our customers appreciate what we do and they love, you know, the product. So, yeah, we'll see, we'll see, we're doing something right. We're trying, we're trying. Yes, but more can we expect this year of back of fashion week, maybe some more stores. What did I miss? I forget. I would say, like, you know, for us, I would say right now are some of our, we're seeing a lot of really nice momentum in our handbag and footwear business, which is really exciting. We launched that, um, I would say like a year and a half ago and we're seeing, um, so much success there. We have, um, this one bag specifically, the two bags, which I called them, uh, Bridget and the Monet bag, which, um, kind of put us on the map in terms of the handbag, in the handbag space. Um, and, you know, we've sold out of them like multiple times, but, you know, through that we acquired a handbag customer and now they're, you know, excited about trying new handbag shapes. So I'm really excited about, um, some of the developments that we have in the pipeline for handbags. It's really been like a focus point for us and, um, lots of new ideas and innovation and things coming out there. And then footwear as well, um, we launched that, um, I would say two years ago and we're really seeing that we found, um, some shapes that people really like and I'm excited to continue to build on that. I think that whenever you're launching a new category, you know, you have your ideas of what the customer wants, but at the end of the day, they need to decide if they actually wanted or not. So it takes a second to really like understand like what, what is, what they're into. And I think that now that we have, um, more data and just more, you know, more, more time and more, um, experience, I think that it's, it's exciting because we've seen some promising traction across those categories. And so that's exciting for me. And then also with men's where we launched men's where, um, last year, uh, at the beginning of the year. And, um, it's something that has always been something that I wanted to do. I actually, no one, no one knows this, but I did, this is the second time I did a men's wear brand. The first time I did men's for some kind of brand was Jonathan, some kind of time. And I designed a full on men's collection, made the samples, but then put in a box and decided not to put it out there. What? Yes. So, um, this is a second work, Jonathan. It is a lot of work, but, um, we did a whole men's collection, um, back when we were still in New York, actually, and decided to, you know, put it away. I, I kept some of the pieces and, and wore them. So it wasn't a complete waste, but, um, I, so this is the second time that we're doing men's, the first time that we actually put it out and, um, and we're seeing really nice traction. We, um, it's, it's stopped by a bunch of really great stores and we have it on the simkai.com as well. And, um, it's in our boutiques. So it's fun for me because, you know, I've had so many, you know, just guy friends and my, my brother and my, my dad always saying, like, when are you going to make something for us? And, um, so it's nice to be able to, to dress the guys in my life and to dress myself and simkai. Um, and yeah, that's an exciting, something that I'm excited about as well. And. It's awesome. Have you dabbled in the rental resale space? I would just, I would think that your dresses would rent like hot, do you say rent like hot cakes? Like you say, sell like hot cakes? I would be popular. Yeah. We're actually on Rent the Runway and we do have some styles on Rent the Runway. Um, and yeah, it works really well for them. Yeah. Is it a customer acquisition tool for you, kind of people find you, they fall in love. It's a great thing because you get a lot of feedback. I think the rent, the rent, the runway customer, it's a tongue twister, uh, Rent the Runway customer is really engaged and you know, there's a lot of like feedback that, um, they give other renters and we also use some of that feedback to also hindsight on like fit and product and to see what, you know, people are gravitating towards. So it is really interesting from a data perspective and customer feedback perspective. Um, and yeah, I think that sometimes people just want to dress to wear once and they don't want to wear it more than once. And, you know, I think it's a perfect solution rather than buying something and, you know, we always talk about this in office, but closet real estate is a really big deal. And you know, sometimes especially in New York and my closet is tiny. I actually have a rack in my, um, I have a rack in my, uh, bedroom that's actually blocking off my husband's side of the bed and he's like, if you want me to sleep in this bed, you need to move this rack somewhere else. I'm like, okay, okay. I hear you. I hear you. I hear you. So, um, no, tomorrow it's my project. I'm moving the rack out of our room so that he feels like he has a space. Um, he's well, I just want him in bed with me. So it's, um, the, the clothes can go. The clothes can go, um, but yeah, closet real estate is a real, a real deal. So I mean, last question because we had a little prep call for this. And I just found out you're such an interesting fellow. I mean, what are you doing this weekend? What do you do for fun? Um, what am I doing for fun? Yeah. So this weekend is actually a closet cleanup day. Um, Saturday is going to be all closet cleanup and then Sunday is going to be a pool day. Um, yeah, I was in Montecito last weekend. Actually just came back from a Europe, uh, my husband and I did, it was a crazy adventure. I did Milan, I did Paris and Milan for fashion week. Then I flew to the Hamptons because I wanted to be in the store. Um, for an event and then I flew back to, uh, Paris for the fabric show. And then from there, I went to a mall fee. Um, and then Sicily for a wedding with the kids and my husband met me there. So like just a nice, like European travel, it was a little long. Um, and packing for that was a disaster. No doubt. Do you, are you a light packer or heavy packer? I'm a, I'm a heavy packer. Um, to be honest, I say, I like, I go back and forth. I'm like, I'm taking nothing. Like it goes, but it's literally like one time I'll pack like two huge bags. And then the next time I'm just back to nothing. Cause I'm so traumatized by either not having anything to wear or having too many things that I've never worn. So, um, yeah, I'm actually up my next trip will be a one bag, one small bag trip. Challenge. Um, but yeah, and then last week I did a trip to Montecito, Montecito is so beautiful this time of year. Um, it's kind of like, it's funny because I grew up in New York and I always, you know, I love going to the Hamptons and when I was in New York, I spent a lot of summers in the Hamptons and living in LA. I've been trying to figure out like, what is the Hamptons of the West Coast? And, um, it's not quite Montecito or Santa Barbara, but, um, it's kind of like the next best thing. So, um, yes, I would guess Montecito, yeah, I haven't spent a lot of time there. So you know better than me. Well, I appreciate you. You're my last meeting of the week. We'll call it a meeting. Um, but yeah, thanks for getting this in before the weekend. It was so fun to chat with you. Thank you so much. Thank you. I appreciate it. Talk to you about the fashion week and I'll see you at the show. I hope so. All right. Bye. Lots of love. That's all for this episode. 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