Hey y'all, this episode is a replay from our episode archives. We traveled back in time and cherry picked this particular episode specifically because it felt relevant to the themes that we've been exploring recently and hope that past us might have some vital information that we're missing today. So we'll be back with new episodes shortly, but we hope you really enjoy this archive episode replay. Hey, you're listening to the Creative PEP Talk podcast. I'm your host, Andy J. Pizza. Today on the show, we have none other than incredible artists, Cheyenne Barton. Cheyenne's one of my favorite people to follow online, both on Instagram and on YouTube. Her YouTube videos are just a big cozy cup of tea. It's just a warm vibe to put in the studio. Just throw that thing in the background while you're making stuff. Great, great vibes. And I had a blast talking with Cheyenne and I'm pumped about this episode because I think at the time I was talking to her, she was really going through a kind of burnout and disillusionment. And you know, it's perfect to share right now because on the podcast, we've been talking so much about how getting lost is an essential part of the creative journey. And so I always want to represent all the different phases and give different pictures into every aspect of what it looks like to be in your path. And I feel like this conversation is going to be really cathartic. It was for me. It was just great to connect with an artist that I love. While you're listening, maybe go check her out on Instagram. C-H-E-Y.Barton. Go find her illustrations of cats and coffee and nice little cozy cottages and a cup full of stars and mushrooms and just all lovely lovely stuff. A lot of cool processy stuff too. It's just nice. It's warm and friendly. Check it out. So you kind of get a vibe for it. And after this episode, check her out on YouTube and brighten your studio vibe today. All right. Here it is. My chat with none other than Cheyenne Barton. Jason, we have a lot going on. We really do. Maybe too much. But it doesn't feel that way. Thanks to Miro. Yeah. Miro is the visual collaboration platform that helps your team work together from anywhere. Yeah. And Miro has tools for project management, creating a digital whiteboard with your team where you can brainstorm, making retrospectives and a whole lot more. We have a lot of content here at M&N. And we've been trying to figure out how to get our videos up on different platforms. And Miro's flow chart tool really helped us get organized and figure out what we need to do to make that happen. And I really love Miro's mind mapping tool. It's a space where you can organize your thoughts in a way that translates to the rest of your team. So that they can help you take action. Super helpful because I can't always reach your mind. You know, it would be scary if you could. Whether you work in product design, engineering, UX, agile or marketing, bring your team together on Miro. Your first three Miro boards are free when you sign up today at Miro.com. That's three free boards at miro.com. If you want inspiration to make deeper, richer, creative work, check out this podcast from the Metropolitan Museum of Art. It's called immaterial 5000 years of art one material at a time. Each episode examines a material of art like clay, stone and even trash and what they can reveal about history and humanity. One episode I suggest starting with is space part one giving form a feeling. If you know me, you know this notion of giving form a feeling is very much my jam. And the story of the artist that cast these forms of negative spaces like in a wardrobe or underneath the table was particularly moving to me and I could feel it kind of opening up that essential emotional novelty side of my creative brain. Check out immaterial by searching immaterial 5000 years of art one material at a time in your podcast app. That's immaterial 5000 years of art one material at a time. When I get stuck on something, if I hit an obstacle, I always have in the back of my mind like, if I figure this out, this will be a podcast. So like, I can't, you know, it gives me something. But it's funny, you do get into this weird thing of like, you want to strike that balance in a way that feels good to you. Yeah, as I think it's the idea where it's just like, as opposed to being like, oh, there's a chance that this could make a great YouTube video. It's the idea where it's like, I have to like, man you factor something in order to like, put it on camera. And so I think it's very much that it is very much striking a balance between the two where it's like, I want to happen to go like, I'll make time to go on an adventure just so I could maybe write about it later without maybe like, being so caught up in like, the details of the adventure, I suppose. I have lately been thinking of it as like, I've been haunted by a content ghost that's just been like, hanging out in like, the back rooms of my brain that's like, hey, hey, and I don't want to think of my art just as like, just being content or just being something to post. And I worry that now it's, it's almost like venturing into that land. And so I'm trying very hard to be like, to make sure that it doesn't. So that way I can refine the joy in making videos and like, just reef, just rediscover the fun in that because it's very stressful right now. And I don't like how stressed it makes me because I do because ideally I got into all the things that I'm doing because like, obviously there's amount of work, even if you're doing like, a really fun, cool, creative thing for a career, there's obviously amount of work that's involved and I understand that. And it's just like, I just don't like, I don't like the idea that I might come to dread things that I used to be like, so genuinely excited and like, amped for. Yeah, I totally understand that. Honestly, the podcast, most of my relationship to it has been really great. But there have been seasons when it's been very similar to what you're describing. And one thing that really helped me was last year when I was, I just was finishing a picture book. And I was just like, downward spiraling of like, I cannot, I can't do this. We had these just different commitments and stuff. And I stopped and I was like, wait a second, I have made a podcast every single week for 16 consecutive weeks right now. And I thought I should feel like I had to accomplish something. But instead, because I have to miss this week, that I feel like a failure. And one thing that really helped me was Ryan and I sat down and said, how many of these a year do I feel realistically I can do in a way that is from that, that love place, you know, and we just like, mapped out the year and said, this is kind of roughly what we think. We're going to do like five less episodes a year. We're going to plan those so that if I do three or four weeks in a row and then plan a week off, I feel accomplished to not instead of a failure. And so I don't know if that applies. But that, I do think it's important, you're bringing up like an important thing about being an artist who also produces content for the internet. Under making your relationship with that, prioritizing some kind of health. Because the thing is, is that the internet, my buddy Brad Montague is like, the internet is this giant monster. And you like make, you put your heart into this amazing thing, you give it to him, and then they just eat it instantly. And then he's like, what else you got? And you're like, okay, that was it. That's all I had. And so I do feel like, how do you, how do you come up with a, because it's, it's such an opportunity, but it's, it's very risky as well. It's risky and it's, it's, it's kind of, it's kind of ruthless, in a way. And I think that like, since I sort of almost started as a content creator, who then became an illustrator, I think that now, or like then became an artist, I feel like now, that relationship is kind of changing. And now I'm like, I would like to be an artist first. And then I would like this like content creation part of my life to come second, because it's still something that I really enjoy. But I'm recognizing like, as far as the health thing goes, where it's just like, this relationship dynamic is not working out, and something has to change. And so I'm in that, like, I'm in that sort of changing process right now, and it feels like so weird and messy, and again, it's just the idea of like, unfamiliarity. And I'm just trying to embrace the mess and just be like, okay, I guess I don't know what I'm doing. And I guess that's okay. And I'm just going to follow. I'm just going to chase my bliss. And we're gonna, we're gonna figure it out somehow, some way, and it'll be fine. And people can wait. And it's just like, I think that's also the thing where it's like, there's this, I always think about where it's like, I think to my favorite, like, makers and creators and stuff, where maybe I haven't heard from them in like a really long time. And then they post for the first time in weeks or months, however long. And I'm always so excited to see them again. And I never like hold any kind of like resentment, or whatever towards them. And so I just, I just imagine that people will probably extend the same grace to me. And so if I get real quiet on the internet for a while, and then I just suddenly pop up again, people aren't gonna be mad at me, which is like the weird and explicable narrative I have in my brain. And it's just the idea where like, if I need to just sit in like a quiet little arcade for a while and figure things out, that's fine. Yeah. Just now you said, I'm kind of in the middle of that. And then you paused. And then you said process. And I almost interrupted and be like, I'm kind of in the middle of that pit. It feels like a pet. You're like in a deep, dark pit. I've been in that pit so many times. It is, I'm trying to be like, I'm like trying to be very, I'm like, trying to be mindful and like trying to think positively and stuff. But it very much feels, it very much feels like a pit, because it feels awful and bad. And I don't like it here. But like, I don't know, I guess I just have to like sit in here for a while and hang up some fairy lights and just figure out what the hell is going on. What, where do you feel? I have two kind of questions around the pit, the content pit. I don't know what this is. But this relationship to the internet, art and the internet, it's a very interesting space. And as two people who have made a lot of stuff for the internet. And also that, the relationships weird too, because I also think a lot about how, you know, every generation, the part, the artists that are breaking through are doing something that the previous generation doesn't accept as art. And I think a lot about like a huge breakthrough for my podcast was like early on, like a year into it, I just decided, this is also going to be art, like this is art. And that was a huge shift. So there's also the relationship to that as two different things, art and content in the relationship of like the, when they are the same thing. What I think a lot of people, every most artists are going to have a relationship with the internet. Where are you in that? And I say that because you, you were saying, I'm trying to be mindful, I'm trying to be positive, because I, I just think it's good to highlight and just catalog like, if you're in right in the middle of the terrible, if you're comfortable talking about that, let's talk about that. And then also, have you found any life preservers in that so that we can kind of think about that? I think like, I feel like I was, I think I'm like, I'm still in the terrible, but I'm not in like the deep, deep, dark, terrible, I was in the deep, deep, dark, terrible and like February, where like, I hit a, I was trying to do everything. I was running my online shop, keeping up with my Patreon, doing like streaming stuff. I was doing YouTube videos. I was like, trying desperately to like post on Instagram more than once a week. And I hit like a full on breaking point. And I kind of had to just like, I had to like email all my YouTube sponsors. I had to like, get in contact with like a bunch of people and be like, Hey, I can't do this. And I, like, I had to put everything on hold basically for like a month. And it felt, there was like, so much shame and guilt tied up around it, because I was just like, these people, those like, these people have been waiting on things. I've signed contracts with these people, like, I'm such a disappointment. I have like, failed in such like a huge monumentous way. And then of course, like sending, like sending those emails was like, one of the most petrifying things I've ever done. And then of course, all of the responses were like, we completely understand, take care of yourself, like take all the time you need. And I was like, watch. And so, um, I, I took like, I took like a month, a month and a half. And I was like, okay, I've been kind of, I always, the way that I always talked about, or it's like, I've been building this. Because I've kind of just been making it up as I go, I've very much been like, building the boat underneath me as I've been sailing it. And it got to a point where like, I was just like, up to my chest in water, and still desperately trying to like, put planks of wood underneath my feet, um, which is simply impossible. And so I was just like, okay, we need to take like, a month, sit on the shore, think about what's going on. And so now, I'm like, I'm, I'm still trying to move forward in ways where I'm venturing out of my comfort zone. And I'm still trying to do things that scare me, but not in a way that's going to like, bring about my own ruin. Um, and I think that like, I, because I'm, I am, I am such a people pleaser, and I am so petrified of disappointing people and letting people down. And having built an audience on the internet, I feel like I am ripe for that at any moment. Um, but I also like, I have to remind myself that I am very lucky in that like, the majority of my audience on the internet is incredibly kind and understanding and super patient. And so they're always like, take your time, your health comes first. And I'm like, thank you. Um, and it's, it's this like, I had to, I basically just had to realize that I do indeed have limits and that I can't actually do it all. And so I had to like, my online shop is closed now for a while. I like basically put all of my YouTube sponsorships on hold. And I am, it kind of feels like I'm like building, I'm like building my career again from like, the bottom up because the way that I had been doing it before was so unsustainable that it's completely falling apart. And so I was in the deep dark terrible earlier this year. And I feel like now it's just like, it's like kind of terrible. It's not like, it's like mildly terrible. I'm just starting to spend time and energy on the things that I genuinely want to, as opposed to being driven by my need to satisfy the wants of others, which is very cool and very new for me. Okay. That there's so many good pieces to that. And I, and I totally relate. And I, you know, you, you had this image of the boat. And I thought that was great. And my mind, I was thinking it felt like there's this ebb and flow of, you have to gain momentum. So you're like, snowballing down a hill. You're like, I gotta, okay, I'm just going, going, going, going. And then at some point, there has to be another phase where you, you're like, okay, time to stop snowballing, because I've rolled in some children sledding into this thing. There's a, you know, I also have this picture of the, the, is it a river spirit that this happens to and spirited away where it's like, has all the bikes and all this stuff stuck in it and now it became like a stink. No face. Isn't that no face? I don't, I can't remember if it. Yeah. But there's a part in there where there's this all this stuff stuck in this creature. And there's, it has to be a time where you like stop snowballing. You're picking up a bunch of stuff that's not snow. You never wanted, you didn't want all these things. And you'd like pick them apart. And yeah, everything falls apart. But now you have a lot of snow accumulated. You could pack it together and like, let's get some momentum again. And so I, I do think it's, I've actually had, um, I've been feeling a similar way because when you're doing all of these things, it's so easy to pick up pieces into your practice without much intentionality or thought, especially when you're just like, trying a million things, you don't know what's going to work. After you get some stuff that is working, then you, then it's probably time to be mindful about like, okay, now let's step back and be like, there's some of the stuff's working, some of the stuff not this thing that I thought, oh, I could add this kind of post or that kind of stream or this kind of thing, because it only takes 15 minutes a week or this is 20 minutes a week, whatever. And eventually you're like, I am, this is unsustainable, a crazy amount of things that I'm committed to. And I've been in a similar zone and you said that, you know, part of your matrix for decision making of what to put back into the snowball was just like, what are the things, what, you know, what's snow, what's the, what do I want here? And, and what are the things that I love, not because of what people expect for me, but because of just because I love it. I heard this thing the other day. I don't remember where it was, but I'm just making a list of the things that you just unabashedly love. And it sounds so obvious, but we do so many things every day. And actually the first time I heard that I thought I don't love anything, like not, not because that's not true, but it's just that's how unintentional we are about it. So that was part of it. Like you're like, so what pieces are you putting back in or or do you feel like, is there any other parts of that process as you're trying to work this out? I think the image that I have in my head is that like, I'm just snowballing down a hill and there's people on the sidelines just like throwing sleds and everything into it as you're rolling down the hill and you're like, I didn't want this, but it's here now. So it's fine. And so I think now that like, everything's broken apart and I'm finally figuring out exactly like what is snow or like what I want to constitute the makeup of my like super cool pirate ship that I'm building. I think that like, I'm realizing that I really, I called it, I call it like my quiet little art cape where I basically just like sit in my studio and like, I don't talk a lot. I don't like post everything about it on like my Instagram stories, which I used to do like a lot like a year ago. I was like sharing pretty much everything I was doing every single day on Instagram stories. And like, I just like sitting in a place where I feel like I'm not being watched. And it's like, yes, of course, I understand that sometimes I'm gonna, I'm gonna, if I want to make a YouTube video or something, but I'm, I'm really relishing and just like listening to Twitch streams or podcasts and just kind of like quietly scribbling away during the day. I also, I, I just, I really like, I just really like being quiet and cozy and making things. And I feel like I worried that like, I mean, every day, of course, it's also the thing where every day I'm on Instagram and I'm seeing like all of these cool, amazing artists that I follow, just like constantly sharing all the cool stuff that they do. And I'm like, I need to be sharing all the cool stuff that I do. And I'm like, but I don't want to share all the cool stuff that I do. I'm like, I just want to do the cool stuff that I do in the privacy of my own, in the privacy of my own space. And I think that like, really coming to terms with that has been really freeing. And I'm also realizing that like, I really, really like Twitch streaming. I really like playing video games on Twitch. It brings me a great amount of joy because it truly just feels like having a little party. But it's a party that like, I'm completely in control of. And I think that those are probably like the two parts of snow that I've like really kind of compacted in and I'm like, okay, this is, this is a really good base. And I think that from here, we can figure out how to pack on all the other little bits. I think the biggest thing for me is like, I've had an online shop now for like three years. And I think that I keep telling myself where it's like, I love, I love having an online shop. And like, I love doing all of these things. And I think that I'm kind of reaching a point where I'm like, my shop's been kind of closed now for like, I want to say six months. And I'm like, I think I might have it closed for like another six or seven months, which is really scary. Because it's been such a kind of defining part of like my online presence is that like, yeah, I have an online shop, we could buy stickers and stationery and stuff. Because it's also like, how I got started making art in the first place. And so kind of putting that part of my life aside or like putting it down for a nap for a bit or whatever is like, absolutely terrifying, because I feel like it's such a, I mean, I'm looking at my shelves, and I just have so many mailers and so much product. And it's, it just takes up so much space both physically and in my brain. And I'm just kind of like, it's not snow. It's a bunch of extra stuff that like, I really don't want to be in there right now, which is, again, it's the idea, because I know that's what everyone, I get DMs every day, people ask me what I'm going to be opening my shop again. And I'm terrified to tell them where it's like, I, I, not for a long time, I don't think. And yeah, it's, it's, it's exciting. But it's also just like, I hope you're not going to be mad at me when I tell you that I don't, that this isn't snow. I don't want your sled in my snowball. Thank you. I love my, I probably won't use this because I rarely get this poetic with my titles. But my current title is the, the, the, what did I put it? The deep, the big, bad, deep, terrible, and what is snow? Like, that makes sense. Well, that's pretty much covers it. But I love that. I, and I think that, you know, there's some pieces here, like, if you get into that zone, I think stopping even for a week, any amount of time, stopping, stop gaining momentum. I know that's the, honestly, that might be the biggest fear to overcome in your relationship of an, as an artist in the internet. The internet says momentum is everything. Momentum is the only thing. And if you have momentum, don't do anything but go harder, stronger, faster, go. If you can keep momentum going on the up, do not do anything to stop it. And so I think the first thing is being stop and then get back to the love of the process, get connected to that. I heard you say that. And, and then little, and then create that little really solid snowball to start over again, get the best snow, the stuff you're sure of, then start rolling that into a sweet little snowman. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like that's a really, that's very valuable. I'm kind of reminded I've been wanting to go through this process because it's just so tempting. It's like, I heard you on your video talking about a little bit of everything all the time. Like, Bob Burnham, that's the temptation is, is to do a little bit of everything all the time because that's what the internet feels like it's asking you for. It is this constant fear of losing relevancy. Like, I have this just because I've built my entire livelihood on the fact that people are interested in what I do. And so I'm petrified every day that I'm going to wake up and suddenly everyone has decided that they couldn't care less about what I do. And suddenly I have my, my, literally all of the snow has just completely melted underneath my feet and I'm standing on a barren mountain. And I'm like, uh, okay. And so it's, it is the idea where you have to keep momentum because heaven forbid all of these strangers on the internet suddenly lose interest in you one day because that is the worst thing that could possibly ever happen. And the fact of the matter is, is that I'm learning that even if heaven forbid all of the snow melts underneath my feet, I'm still going to be fine. Like, I'm going to be okay. My world isn't going to end. I'll have to change strategies obviously, but like you cannot sacrifice everything that you are and everything that makes everything that makes up you and everything that makes up your work. You cannot sacrifice that all just for the sake of staying relevant or keeping up the impossible momentum that the internet demands of you. And I think, uh, I think you're going to be fine. We're going to, I'm saying it to myself. I hope there's actually just a mirror. I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to the video of me. Massive thanks to Squarespace. Squarespace is an all in one website platform that makes making a website easy peasy. For a moment, creative websites were kind of looking all the same. And I really wanted to break out of the templity look. Then I heard that Squarespace has this new fluid engine. And boy, am I glad I checked it out because this thing is what I always dreamed making a website could be like for me. Drag and drop stuff and then drag it all over the place, text, images, videos, you can put it wherever you want, layer it up, tear it up, everything I cooked up in my mind, I could figure out how to do without any knowledge of coding. Got a lot of comments like, Hey, who helped you build this? And I was like, Squarespace is fluid engine, baby. You can see it at antijpc.com and head to squarespace.com for a free trial and build your own site. And when you're ready to launch, you can get 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain with promo code pep talk, all one word, all caps. You know, I am all about getting to the bottom of what fuels the world's greatest artists. So for me, American Masters creative spark the award winning podcast from PBS is just a treasure trove of creative inspiration. American Masters creative spark catalogs creative journeys of artists and icons across disciplines from music to comedy to poetry to film. This show features some of the absolute best to do it. And the new season is next level with the likes of singer songwriter Jewel Grammy award winning singer songwriter Connor Oberst for you fellow bright eyes fans and Pulitzer winning playwright Annie Baker. I'd say a great place to start is with Tony award winning actor and one of the most legendary guests we've ever had on the show, none other than JGL himself, Joseph Gordon Levitt, where he talks about the wide spectrum of mental approaches he needs to be able to tap into from realism to comedic farce and everything in between. That's the juicy stuff I love. So go check it out, follow American Masters creative spark on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. Two quick things. One, yes. Have you ever noticed any interesting parallels between illustration and acting? Have you ever thought about the way that they interact even with just your life? I think that for me just because like my my acting career like I was doing I was doing a fair bit of theater work when I first moved to Seattle, but I feel like for me doing YouTube videos kind of like scratched my acting itch even when like I was doing a bunch of auditions that like weren't landing or whatever because I got to perform quote unquote even in a small way and there is a certain level of theatricality inherent. I feel like in everything that I do and I feel like I get to yeah it's be I feel like YouTube kind of scratches that acting itch and so I feel like there's a relation there in that way. I feel like there's something about the amorphousness of the process because even if like even in rehearsal if you're going to like table work and then you're going to blocking and then you're doing like whatever until you get to performance and I feel like in illustration if you're going to go to like thumbnails and then sketching and then line art and whatever so like even if you maybe have like a set of steps to follow within those steps there is so much room for who knows what and so I think that there's this idea where it's like even though I feel like this is maybe universal across just all art forms like even if there is a formula to follow it's never going to be the same every time and that's the beauty of the thing and that's what makes it so exciting and that's why like you keep showing up and that's like why I want to keep illustrating and it's why I want to keep acting because I never know what's going to happen which is very cool yeah I completely agree and I I've had the same experience with in my practice like there's times where I go in this rigorous research and and and observational drawing and compiling all of that and sketch phase and then there's times where I'm just like I made the final thing like that was done and I didn't even think about it it was the best thing I made that year like that that's the it is the it's the fun thing to have those tools and then use them sometimes and then just completely forget about them other times I love that and I think that is true across the board part of the reason I asked that too is there was a big break for me where whenever I started doing talks I felt like for a minute I was like maybe I'm not an illustrator like that I love doing this so much and it and I don't I was like I don't know what this is but it's analogies metaphors like stories I just am obsessed with this feeling and then one time I heard this speaker say he's like hey I want to tell you a story I'm just gonna give you an illustration and I was like what if they're the same thing man and then I was gonna I wanted to pose it at you because I thought for a long time that acting an illustration is so so similar in that you're you're usually illuminating you're bringing to life a text you almost always you're and and and I and I thought about how you know illustrators are often like the last people in the chain that only get invited to the party when they're like certain they want to cast you and so you have this thing of like as an illustrator I'm like you got to write your own scripts you got it you can't wait for that to happen just like an actor you got a you got it you got to do both even if you feel like I'm not really a writer I still think like do that thing anyway I bring it up because you know when I realize I go both my speaking and my drawing are illustrations I'm always trying to illustrate something I also I I heard that I heard an animator talk about how she saw animation as acting without being on screen and that she would always take herself as reference and draw her expressions and do all that and she she works at Disney and she was just like I feel like I'm an actor and I just thought maybe that's a piece that gives you some maybe you'll feel like you'll get a small moment of feeling integrated in whole rather than the you know multiplicity of all these different hats because I do think acting and illustration are are very much one and the same and I don't know I just I was curious how that would hit you I've on live legit never thought about like that thought about it like that and I think that that is so I just think that's really rad because it's the idea where it's like um and like I'm thinking particularly about the feelings that I that I got watching pro mayor I don't know if you've seen pro mayor but it like it is have you seen it have you seen into the spiderverse one of my favorite films well time oh my god okay so I've never been so hype in all of my life than as I was when I was watching into the spiderverse pro mayor gave me pretty much the exact same feelings of like and it's this idea of like I always think that there are some like live action films that I watch and I'm like this would be so much more rewarding animated and I feel like there's also um well actually it's it's rare that I'm like I watched an animated film like this would be better with people in it because I just think animation is such a delight and wonderful but I think it's this idea where it's like they're both they're both vehicles for storytelling and I think that they capture they capture different nuance in different ways and I think that yeah I just think I've never thought of them I love the idea of I want to tell you a story let me show you a illustration I think that's that's wonderful and I think it's this like I've always thought of them is like basically me living like a double life and like pretending I'm a double agent and I'm like having these two different careers and I'm like one half I'm like a super charismatic actor and I'm schmoozing and I'm networking and doing all this stuff all the time and then the other half of my life I'm like a quiet little rabbit who just sits in my cave and draws and crochets all the time and I'm realizing that I those are all in the same they're all within me and it's all in the same house and it's just like it doesn't have to be these like two huge parts of my life don't have to like completely tear me in twain they can live in harmony because they have a lot more in common than I realize that they do and I I keep going because I have this similar thing of I love acting I wanted to be an actor I that was I want to be a comedian is what I wanted to do really well from like age seven which I think that's probably when I saw ace fintura all the way to which which I shouldn't have watched that at seven but uh but that was the 90s man um yeah so like from then to like 18 that's what I was gonna do and uh and so I think about I mean I love acting I love the feeling of acting like I did theater and I actually like video about it in theater but anyway what I'm on about what I'm trying to get to is I've been thinking about what because they feel so different in terms of process yes but I have thought about like what do they have in common that I like so much and I do wonder as someone who likes to perform and like you know make something interesting like whether that's a twitch or a youtube video or an illustration I do think there's an element of like bringing it to life being the person who feels like I know how to bring this to life like you see actors the actors I'm obsessed with are the people where it's like like I just watched uh Maravise Town and I thought no I don't think there's very many people that could do it Kate Winslet did in that there's so many moments of like just looking at her that's all that's happening and I'm like and I could do that for years because she's just like she's bringing nothing to life and I and I feel like that's a part of me that I'm like I know I can do that in front of a camera and I'm on stage and I know I can do that in a picture I know I can make it not boring I don't know what something like that I don't know yeah I think it's the yeah it's the idea of not boring it's the thing where it's like one of my professors in college where he was like there's some it's just this certain thing and I think it's very I don't think it's like a thing that you're only like innately born with I think it's very much like a thing that you can cultivate but it's this idea where it's like say you're watching a production of Hamlet and instead of watching Hamlet you for some reason can't your take can't take your eyes off of like guard number three and it's just this idea of like this phenomenal inner life and like trusting that like if you they always say like if you think your thoughts the audience will pick up on it and it's this idea of trusting your audience and I think that that also applies to like visual like artistic work as well because it's this idea where it's like I think about that a lot of my illustration where like I get caught up a lot I get caught up a lot in like details and like worry that I need to refine things enough so that people will be able to like pick up what I'm putting down and then I can be like if I just give like the vague idea of a thing I know that my audience is smart enough that they're going to be able to pick up on it and it's like if you think the thoughts that you're thinking and if you're living the life of like the character that you're trying to portray the camera the audience whomever will pick up on it as long as you are communicating that authentically I that is so cool man I love the things you think the thoughts that you're thinking because I feel like it applies I saw this um uh I'll put in the show notes uh this illustration that Lisa Congen shared but she didn't do it but it's the it's the thing of the iceberg thing of you see this little bit and then there's all this other stuff I do feel like the same with acting as illustration where my illustration got I felt like it got so much more depth as I became a deeper person and I would approach it with like I'm trying to put all this stuff onto the page even if I'm drawing something very simple like I and I and you would look at these drawings in comparison and be like the subject matter is exactly the same but there's the iceberg thing of the thoughts that I was thinking were different when I was doing it and there was these you can just I feel like when you consume stuff you can tell the difference between something of like I couldn't tell you what has depth about this but there's just a bunch of there's just a bunch here and I can I can sense it uh we have there's a bunch of other stuff we can talk about next time but yes thank you for doing this and thanks for squeezing it in when you have so much stuff going on oh my god oh my god please I was so excited when I got here I was streaming when I got your instagram DM and so I was just like and everyone was like oh my chat was very excited so yeah that's sweet while I was super pumped talk to you we got a bunch of other stuff to cover all right great thank you Cheyenne good great talk thank you so much good to talk to you have a good one yo thank you Cheyenne so much for jumping on the show and having a great chat hope to do it again sometime your practice embodies so many of the things that we talk about on this show and uh and I really appreciate you being so open and honest about the frustrations and the not so thriving side of being a creator online these days because uh as we all know there are a lot of pros and cons there are a lot of highs and lows to the old creative journey uh thanks again go check out Cheyenne on instagram give her a follow you're not gonna be disappointed it's uh I'm always happy to see her stuff come up in the old feed and go throw on some of her videos on youtube and just make that studio vibe enhanced with three layers three levels of sunshine straight through the computer screen that sounds very dystopian um but but I promise it'll feel like a warm cup of tea um thanks Cheyenne uh anyway massive thanks to Yoni wolf for our jingle and his band Y for our soundtrack you can go check out the soundtrack at creativepeptalk.com slash creativepeptalk.com slash creativepeptalk.com um that's not it at all and we don't have to cut it it's just weird it's actually creativepeptalk.com slash music uh that playlist is of the songs that we use but it's also rated R because it's got the vocals and such and uh it's a little bit of the nature of the band Y um you know huge fan thanks Yoni thanks to Ryan Appleton and Sophie Miller for content assistance thanks to Connor Jones for editing this show so beautifully uh until we speak again stay Pepto. 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