Hey everyone! The conversation you're about to hear is a bit of bonus content related to episode 13, which is about how agrology is defined in BC. For that episode, I interviewed Jane Kerner from the BC Institute of Agrology. The crux of that interview was a discussion about the exclusivity that agrologists in BC are granted to offer advice and services related to agrology. In that conversation, I expressed concern that the definition of agrology in BC is too broad, and thus may result in people being required to hire an agrologist in context where it doesn't seem necessary to me. Jane disagreed, we had a good debate, go listen to that episode if you haven't yet. At the end of that episode, I teased the possibility of sharing the perspective of someone without an agrologist designation who has been affected by these rules. That person is who you're going to hear from today in this bonus episode of the podcast. Her name is Leanne Smith, and she owns a company called Fencefast with her partner, Axel Boris. Leanne and Axel sell fencing supplies, and frequently offer advice to their customers about how to set up that fencing correctly. They've done that for many, many years. Recently, Leanne was approached by an agrologist who told her that she's not supposed to be offering advice to her customers without involving an agrologist. I asked Leanne to tell me a bit of her story, and that's what you're about to hear. I'll be back at the end with one or two final thoughts about this, but here's my conversation with Leanne. Leanne Smith, thanks so much for joining me on farming in British Columbia. Thank you for inviting me. Leanne, you and your business partner, who also happens to be your romantic partner, Axel, run a business called Fencefast. Can you tell me about Fencefast a little bit before we get going just for context? Oh, of course, so Fencefast, how it came to be was Axel had a custom fencing business specialized in an electric fencing and wildlife exclusionary in the interior. He's kind of gone back and forth between the lower mainland and the interior all of his life, but he had that business, and he saw an opportunity to really build a brand digitally. And at that point, there was room for me to join him, and we just created Fencefast to really evolve into an animal management business, definitely still specializing in agricultural and lots of electric fencing and just my specialty and my passion lies in livestock and traceability and weighing. So the whole kind of full gamut of, you know, from wildlife to livestock to the animal management part, because I mean, for fencing, it's a lot of times, you know, what you're trying to keep out or what you're trying to keep in. So we even just, that's often our opener and just start with, let's look at the whole big picture and design something that works for you, your property, your situation. Can you give me a sense of just of his back, you're both of your backgrounds, like in terms of what you, what, what kind of experience you've built up around fencing and knowledge about fencing materials and, and fencing installation. And then you mentioned you, you also kind of are interested in animal weight management and that sort of stuff. So starting with Axel, like, how long has he been, has he been kind of in the fencing biz? Well, he definitely grew up on a ranch in, in Vanderhoof area. So I know he was, he will say that, you know, he's been doing it since for years and years, but then has gotten him in the early 90s had meat goats while he was doing fencing in, in Vanderhoof and 14 James area and quickly realized that electric fencing was the answer for goats. And that kind of brought him to electric, direct fencing and then realized the benefit for predator fencing. And then there was no one else kind of doing it. He saw the opportunity and I shouldn't say no one, but it was very, the world was wide open at that point for someone wanting to do electric fencing for sure. And he just really dove into it and became his specialty. So am I hearing, am I hearing around 30 years in the fencing business? On top of growing up on a ranch? Yes. Yes. Like he is, I know like the other day he was just saying something about 20 years. I'm like, maybe I had a few more. No, maybe I had a few more. So, so yes, it has been a while because anything is, yes, because we just celebrated 25 years as a Gallagher dealer. So, so yeah, it is, it is edging up definitely to 30 years of, of fencing business. And I'll come back to Axel in a moment, but okay, how about you? Like how long have you been involved in, in, in the fencing business? So, I mean, while I, so before I was involved in the actual industry, so I am a Saskatchewan girl. I grew up on a grain farm, but then I married in to a cattle operation. So, that was a fast intro into fencing and doing, doing all of the things. So I had, you know, we had a cow calf operation. We had a mixed grain operation with, with my family and his family, there was, I was working full time. And at that point, I was an agricultural lender. And I kind of knew our struggles, but I was looking at people's financials all across, you know, wide gamut. And there was this one little, this one little group. And I could tell by their, their financials, they were doing something differently. And when I kind of asked, they all were like, Oh, well, we're in, we're taking this holistic management and we're, you know, doing this group. And I was like, holistic management, I had no idea. And that led me, because I, I could tell from their numbers and from talking to them, they were doing something different, which led my husband at that time. And I to do an holistic management deep dive and book study, theory study, and accountability study over a year, which led into many other things, which really brought me into, because this was kind of my idea, this became then my project of, of winter extended grazing and bale grazing. And, and if I only I knew now, like then what I knew now about electric fencing, my fencing career then would have been way easier. My sad attempt of what, how I started. And then it has been 10 years, though, that I've been learning from Axel and we started fence fast in 2016. And then since then it has been full time in, in the fencing industry for me. And it was actually then in 2019, we, Axel and I went to Kansas City to Gallagher, that is Gallagher North America's headquarters for a week long intensive passion or pasture certification. And I was kind of there from the management admin side and, and going to maybe the, the second resource. And somewhere in that week, there was a presentation that came in about the weighing and traceability expert saying, you know, if you're going to do the focus is going to be on improving, improving grass and having your animals, like harvest it. You need to, and you want to quantify those numbers. That's talk weighing and traceability. And how, you know, that can be your data, how you can make better financial decisions. Which I am assuming, I'm assuming that requires thoughtful fencing. I assume that's the relationship here. Yes, yes. And it was like all of the pieces of the puzzle came together for me from like what I had seen years ago from people's finances to knowing what I knew now about the benefits of electric fencing and the, from the cost savings to the time to the management to see being able to have quantified data to make better information and better decisions. It just always like, whoa, you know, Angel singing cue the cue the light bulb. And that then has really been my focus on really helping people make decisions and make good decisions that make sense for them to make better financial decisions. And because I believe that agriculture is, you know, financially and physically demanding. And if we can do something to help ease any of that, then that's a conversation that I want to be helping someone to have. And so can you tell me, you mentioned the week long intensive at Gallagher headquarters on course on pasture and fencing management. Can you talk about other education and any other coursework you both have done over the years to become more knowledgeable about what you do? Well, I mean, for myself, definitely that holistic was the beginning, like it covered a wide range, but definitely better fencing. Fencing options was a big part of it. I also then took ranching for profit and took the advanced about which was that as well. Not so much fencing, but yet the numbers and that was all part of it. How to increase your profitability. And if you could do something like have more animal units at a lower, at a lower cost or, you know, just becoming more profitable. So it really fell into those things. And then I also took low, because I was the one who didn't in all of these things. I came from, you know, a background of grain. I took a low stress animal management handling course in Texas from from bad Williams. That was again really about how to to move animals when you are in pasture settings, especially when you're, you know, doing rotational grazing with electric fencing, you're moving more frequently and handling more, which then led into what, you know, what I do now even more handling more handling for weighing. And then I have gone to Kansas City a few times for for one-on-one training on on weighing and traceability. And I don't know, we're just like, there's so many courses that that we've taken within the industry. There's more in the US than in Canada or conferences or fencing competitions that are kind of offered in the US that annually or semiannually that we attend as well. And does the same go for Axel? Has he taken? Oh, yeah, like that's all the all the competition. I should like rephrase that. I'm doing none of the competition. That is that is Axel's real house. And yeah, like his his passion lies in the in the design and finding a way to do something, you know, better, faster, safer. If there's a passion to be had, that is definitely his and definitely electric fencing for sure because, you know, he knows the benefit and knows the financial benefit. And that is his. So definitely he's gone to New Zealand to tour Gallagher's factory that where it originated. Like when Sir Bill Gallagher invented it, it's still from what I've understood. It still has its roots there and they've expanded. So yeah, like he's went there to tour and have training and same thing. We have both been to Kansas City and just had multiple product training and, you know, over the years, just the one on one new product and new new, you know, things that have evolved right for sure. So, so it is just a constant, a constant part of our our world. I'm going to say. And in your work, for many years, you've you've basically in addition to selling equipment, you have you have built or at least planned fences for people, right? So if we think about plans that might lead to you building them or might lead to your customers building them, how many just like how many of those plans of you two put together over the years in a ballpark sense? I'm just trying to give listeners a sense of how many of these plans you've you've done around BC. Well, I know we do sell across the country. I know we have done over 600. That was when I started counting. So I'm going to say 750 on a one since I've been since I've been involved. So Axel is probably well over a thousand. Okay, thanks. So look, Leanne, the reason you're talking to me is because of an unpredicted kind of tension that developed within the last year, I think. How did it all begin? Because this is essentially going to be a quick story about you being told that you are not qualified to do what you do and shouldn't be doing it because you're running a foul of regulations in BC. So how did it all start? So it was in 2023 at Pacific Egg Show, and I had been part of the Canadian Forage Association, and I was had like a professional agrologist reach out to me and explain to me that, you know, what we do or what I do with census because it was directly with me talking about rotational grazing plans and helping people with any questions or designing and constructing that, you know, that we were going to be allowed to do that or engage in that in the business and that business and BC anymore. So I felt like I feel like there's just a huge misunderstanding and that it's just not understood what we do or who we are or, you know, there's just something and sometimes you know, like it's when you're dealing not face to face or with an email or something, there's just something lost in the translation. Well, it sounds like you were surprised, maybe confused and thought this had to be a mistake. That's I don't want I want you to confirm that's how you felt. Don't let me put words in your mouth, but that's what I'm sensing. 100%, because in my mind, agrology is like the science of plants or the plants for, you know, growing a crop and, you know, dirt, soil, that is what I was thinking. And I was thinking 100%, this is bit of misunderstanding. Like we are just not, you know, looking at apples, apples type of thing that we can just have a conversation and get this straight and out is was my thought. And it quickly became, no, this was not going to be a quick little misunderstanding that I was definitely told that the activities, you know, we engage in in our in our day to day business was not, you know, was in violation of this, of this new governance act. Being at the show was in violation. We were not able to promote or talk or have conversation about animal management products. Having a manufacturer's representative of products in BC or at a trade show was not allowed unless they were a professional agrologist and a professional agrologist that was registered in BC. I'm going to I'm going to interject here and say that I'm, as listeners will quickly find out or already know from the introduction, I'm going to be talking to the BC Institute of Agrologists about this topic. But for this conversation, I'll just interrupt and say that there is, you refer to the Professional Governance Act and within that act there is an agrologist regulation and it regulates who can give certain advice or services. I'll have the web page from the BC Institute of Agrologists open. So it pertains to advice or services that are based on agricultural or natural sciences or agricultural or resource economics and relate to. And I don't know that I'll read all of these kind of sub clauses, but part A is the cultivation, production, improvement, processing, marketing or management of aquatic or terrestrial plants or animals. So if I just stop there, what I'm reading is based on this summary of the regulation on the BCIA website, is that because you are not a professional agrologist, a registered agrologist in BC, you don't get to offer advice or services because they would, what you are doing falls under that summary that I just shared. So are we in agreement? That's basically why this one or more agrologist was talking to you and suggesting you could curtail like stop doing what you were doing? Yes, that is, that would be my understanding. Okay. Is there much more to fill in? Is there more to the story of the back and forth that that is worth that you want listeners to know about? No, not to the story. I think then it just really was the sitting back and being like, okay, what does this mean? And what does this mean for the industry? I think it's extremely limiting to have just agrologist talking about things that are product or practice based that people who with experience cannot, that people with experience from other locations, if you are not a registered BC agrologist even, it's limiting the conversations. It's limiting the information. And as a citizen of BC or as someone who is very passionate about this industry, I think anytime you start limiting the amount of people, the number or anyone about what they can talk about is just a path we have to really evaluate. Do you sympathize at all with their position that extra amount of training typically university-based as a foundation and then some mentorship as you become an agrologist? Do you think that's necessary or should be a necessary condition for the type of planning, advising, consulting that you've done over the last number of years? I mean, I am a strong proponent of lifelong learning and I have a degree, not in a, you know, I'm not an agrologist, I have a degree in organizational management. And to be honest, that's what I feel that I do. I help people with animal management. And however, what I learned as a, you know, a theory, the practices that I talk about now isn't something that they're teaching in any classes. I have been, I've been asked by two different provinces to come in and speak into agricultural departments. And they're trying to, you know, expand knowledge beyond traditional textbook, writing to what's new and what's current. And I understand that you need, you know, you need rules and you need regulation and governance. But I also think you need to have people who are actually doing, you know, doing the work. And in the, you know, the day-to-day boots on the ground, able to speak, they're, you know, the truth of what's happening and what's available and what's happening in other jurisdictions and other provinces and other countries and have those open conversations for people willing to learn. I always believe there's a time and a place for regulation and governance. But where does it begin and where does it end? So if you are a livestock producer, then you can't learn about, you know, like, you can't be having a conversation. But what, if you're someone who just says, I have pet goats, then that person can talk to me. But if it's just that they're actually interested, like, in agriculture, then that is wording. Actually, I don't read it that way. And I will get this clarification from the BCIA. I really read it as, in this province, you cannot provide these services and advice to anyone if it's concerning this broad range of topics related to, you know, the production of plants and animals. I'll get back to you with what I find out. Okay, and then do they have the people in place? You know, like, and I mean, that is my other thing. Like, if that was a question I had, are you then having people taking the same level of training? Are you having people having these conversations? Have they gone to, you know, study the basics, say, of fencing, of the construction of it, of animal management? And, you know, if, and if so, do you have enough to fill the gap? Because there is a large gap, there's a large amount of producers in this province. So, what is that accountability that they have? What is, you know, what is the process that they've gone through for education? Yeah, and I want to give listeners some very specific examples of activities that you engage in and that you think the agrologists believe you are not allowed to engage in. I mean, really specific. So, I don't want to, I don't want to talk about we, you know, we do plans for people, but like, for example, do you ever, have you ever helped a beekeeper use electric fencing, build an electric fence to keep bears from their hives? Yes. And to your understanding of what the agrologists have told you, are they saying you should not be doing that? Because you're not qualified to do so. Yes. Okay. Can you give me two or three more? Like, just like, really, just specific activities that you might help people with? Well, a big problem that people have, because in BC, we have a lot of multi-species farms. So, having a fence that is adequate for one type of species, and another that is sharing the same location without having any type of entanglement issue, and also keeping predators at bay. So, meaning, you know, you don't want your horse tangled in something that is appropriate for your sheep or your chickens. So, specifically like that, specifically designing different species, one property, different types of fencing requirements for those species, and predator. Have you or Axel looked into what it would take to become an agrologist, for one of you to become an agrologist? And is it feasible for you? We have. We've looked at it in Saskatchewan as well. And really, because really, we're still in the step-back phase. Like, this year, we did not go to the Pacific Ague show or to any other trade show in British Columbia. Sorry. Step-back phase, meaning you are proceeding cautiously because of what you've been told about what you're not allowed to be doing. And we have step-back our promotion in the province of British Columbia. And just really looking at it from what is our long-term plan. We have what's our strategy here. So, we have looked at it, but we've made no decisions at this point. So, Leon, is it an option for you and Axel to just start involving an agrologist, essentially get their approval of your plans, like going forward? Would that be a solution to this? Definitely, we have looked at having, you know, the pros and cons, the benefits of having a professional agrologist on contract or under the Fencefast umbrella for what we do. And it really is, you know, part of our whole evaluation of how we will be operating, moving forward in BC. If you do that, do you think that will result in a net increase in the quality of your plans, of these of these fencing plans? Do I believe that? No, I don't believe that. And how do you mean, the way I interpret that is that you believe the plans are already really solid to begin with? Correct. Right. So, this will be, if you do this, this will be to satisfy this regulation. Correct. What does that mean for the customer paying for these services? Does that mean, I mean, the added cost? That means added steps and more, I'm going to say, not as easily accessible, right? Well, as soon as you're adding more people into the picture, it complicates timing, for sure, but definitely cost. Leanne Smith, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me about this. Thank you for having this conversation. Hey again, everyone. So, Leanne's experience is interesting, I think, because it's easy to imagine two divergent reactions to it. On the one hand, you might be thinking, this is a perfect example of the overreach of the agrologist regulation. On the other, you might be thinking, what is Leanne complaining about? All she has to do is go and get what's called a limited agrologist designation, which was created with the recent updates to the agrologist regulation, specifically to allow people like Leanne to be able to keep offering advice without requiring her to have the kind of academic background that is necessary to have a technical or professional agrologist designation. In which case, I think the devils in the details of how much time and money would be required of Leanne to get that designation. Regrettably, I did not devote much time in my conversation with Jane Kerner in episode 13 to parsing those details. If any of you have some insight about that and want to enlighten me, send me a voice memo. Podcast at farminginbc.ca or 250-767-6636. A big thanks to Leanne Smith for sharing her story, and I'll talk to you all soon.
