The Rise Up, See Red podcast

Zaven Collins' contract, BJ Ojulari's injury, Kyler Murray and the depth chart

Jess and Seth return to talk about the latest with the Arizona Cardinals. They talk about the impact of BJ Ojulari's injury and what the Cardinals can do at outside linebacker. They talk about Zaven Collins' new contract. They discuss Kyler Murray not playing in the preseason and what other players probably will not play, and then go over the first depth chart of the preseason.

Duration:: 59m
Broadcast on:: 07 Aug 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

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Granger, for the ones who get it done. [CHANTING] [CHANTING] [CHANTING] [MUSIC PLAYING] This is the Rise Up Sea Red podcast, all about the Arizona Cardinals and the NFL, featuring insider and outsider perspectives. Enjoy the best hour of Cardinals Talk on the Web. Now, here are your hosts, Jess Root and Seth Cox. Hello, Arizona Cardinals fans, and welcome to the latest edition of the Rise Up Sea Red podcast, the best hour of Cardinals Talk on the Web. I'm your host, Jess Root from cardswire.com, the USA Today NFL Wire site that covers, of course, your Arizona Cardinals. And this is one of our normal shows, not one of our Cardinals camp updates with Howard Balzer. Although there will be one of those coming as well, Seth Cox from RevengeOfTheBirds.com, SB Nation's Arizona Cardinals site is with me. And we have our normal weekly show that will end up being a couple of shows during the week. But we're going to keep pumping out the content. This is going to be either episode 5, 74, 5, 75. It depends on whether I get this episode out first, or whether Howard's camp update from Tuesday, I get that out instead. And Seth, it's pre-season week one. There is basically there's two practices left of training camp at State Farm Stadium. I went to a couple of practices. Next week they're on the road. They're only home game of the pre-season. So we are basically there. Football is right around the corner. And now we get to see these guys in live action, at least the non-starters for the most part. Yeah, it's that time where it's football, but it's not great football, but it's better than no football. And so, you know, it's just one of those things that we're excited, man. It's a good, it should be a good season. Obviously the biggest thing that has already not happened is that we're just waiting and hoping to get through this injury situation and get into the regular season. Obviously, injuries happen in the regular season all the time too, right? Like it's part of the game, it sucks, it is what it is. But at the end of the day, we want to get to the regular season and at least see what this team could be. And unfortunately, you know, before the season even gets started, before even a snap and preseason, right? We don't get to do that. And that's unfortunate because one of the guys that you and I were really looking forward to this year to really see what he was and what he potentially could be after basically a, what would you call it? Maybe a half a rookie season, maybe? Yeah, it was essentially that. B2-O-Jallari, B2-O-Jallari second round pick last year out of LSU was one of like, one was like, one of our breakout players to look at this year, was in a perfect spot because he started getting more playing time late last year, was getting productive, was healthy all-off season, looked great in OTAs and mini camp and looked great honestly in training camp. And just a week after Jonathan Ganon and everyone was talking about how healthy the Cardinals were, suddenly they put pads on and injury started to happen. You know, the throw hole to get hurt, that he's gone, he's back, lots of little injuries it seems, but the major, major one, B2-O-Jallari, he's tearing his ACL on Friday, he's done for the year. Arguably, arguably one of the guys on the defense were you least could afford. Like he was the guy you could at least afford to lose for the year for any significant amount of time. Because of how that edge room looks in terms of the pass rush, he's the only one that gives you natural pass rushing talent. And now you're gonna have to manufacture that stuff again. - Yeah, and it's not just that you're gonna have to manufacture it. It's, and I don't want to sound, you know, hyperbolic, but you didn't really just don't even know if this is a guy you can count on moving forward, right? Like obviously slightly big news that I don't see on our schedule to talk about this, so I'll just bring it up. They re-sign Zaven Collins to a two-year contract extension. Very moderate deal. I mean, were you a little surprised by how moderate the deal was? - I can't wait to see, you know, not really, because I think Zaven understands in terms of the position he plays, he hasn't more. - Like, right, he hasn't earned the pass rush or money and being two extra years. And it was really, the timing was like, oh, BJ goes down, so we gotta make sure we've got Zaven here. And we've talked about just how I actually forgot to put this on the schedule, one of the things that, but yeah, we should definitely talk about Zaven because we've talked about it, we've known this, just how much they love Zaven Collins in the building. And Zaven has the right mentality, he's got a, I don't know if I believe this stick. He's like, I don't know, I grew up with a town that's got no stoplights, still got no stoplights. So there's a little bit of the small town, aw shucks stick to him about how he talked about his new deal. But the truth of the matter is he sort of, kind of the opposite in mentality of Zizia Simmons, right? Simmons wanted, like, and I'm okay with that. Like he wanted to be a star, like he wanted to be one of the best players and Zaven puts his head down and is like, yeah. And wanted to be here, wanted to be part of it, and a nice two year deal. And I wanna see what the true numbers end up being, but I think it's a, especially when he still hasn't proven anything, you can largely see him as probably a failure at inside backer, 'cause he didn't stick there. And he hasn't yet proven to be even above average edge defender, he's just a solid, like right now, he's a solid two down player. But when it comes to the arguably the most important part of the edge of producing disruption in the passing game, he doesn't do it. He does all the other things else, but he sets the edge really well. He's very smart, he's a short tackler in the run game. He, in fact, coming off of that position, his play in coverage is fantastic from that spot. And very much like what we saw from Hassan Redick when they finally moved him to the edge, like the troubles and coverage that he had suddenly disappeared because it was a more instinctive, more instinctual drop. And so that's the next step. And now this ends up being an absolute bargain of a deal if somehow he becomes an eight plus sack guy, which I think is possible, but it just, it just, you know, something we said, they love Zaven and they proved it right by, and this is, you know, now it finally gives another one of Chimes first drum picks a second contract. (chuckles) - And Nick Tyler and Zaven. - And it's funny to think about this, but, you know, it really does set up Zaven for the future. You know, one, if he's bust as an edge player and just never really turns into more than, you know, Matt Shaughnessy 2.0. Obviously a little bit better because he's, like you said, good and coverage, good athlete, you know, those things, but basically, you know, a slightly more athletic version of Matt Shaughnessy, he gets paid probably more than he's worth. If he starts to break out, he's only 27, that contracts up, that's a three, four year year, you know, $70, $80 million contract, and who knows? And in 20, 27, when he's a free agent, right, we could be talking about, you know, a four year, $100 million contract for edge defenders that are average, you know, slightly above our leadership. - Oh, yeah, yeah. - So, yeah, I mean, I think it's truly one of those things that it probably works for you. It probably works better for Zaven right now in what he has done because it's, like you said, we gotta see what the money actually is, but at least they're, I mean, you're gonna know that there's some guaranteed money there, right? - Well, right, right. He was already getting 2.7 million this year. And according to the initial numbers is that there's 11 and a quarter in guaranteed money. How much of that is like fully guaranteed or is called guaranteed because there are bonuses that he can be paid later, we'll have to wait and see. But the fact of the matter is he's getting, like he does get additional security than what he had before and he signed through two more years, so he's got, I'm sure he's getting, wouldn't you say, probably 4 million upfront. - Yeah. - And probably we'll have a minimum salary. So like his year one payout will probably about five and a half million. - Yeah. - And then, so he's doubling his money this year and still is under contract. Next year, and probably his 2025 salary is also fully guaranteed. I would bet. - Yeah, and so what that does for him is, you know, it basically is a fallback. Like, hey, unfortunately, if you don't turn out, you got paid and you got paid probably more than you were worth, but if you do turn out, you set yourself up to get another, you know, a big contract, at least one big contract. And, you know, if you ever are fortunate enough to talk to guys that play in the NFL or played in the NFL, they'll, they'll tell you the same thing. They're all looking for that one big guaranteed contract. - Right. - You know, they're the, for every guy like. - That second contract. Now, first round picks have it well, they do. So, save it honestly. He's in a really good spot already financially, but you really cash in in contract two. - Right. But, you know, having Zaven, you were, you were looking at it as like, okay, we've got, we've got the rock. Now, we've got to find somebody that can rush the passer. And the hope was that was going to be Joe Gielari. And now, you know, we just don't even know. And it's one of those situations where it's just, you know, it's super unfortunate because it's not a guy's fault when he gets injured. Like, I've always said that, you know, people always talk about Andre Wadsworth being a bust. Was he a bust? I mean, the guy can't walk. Literally, like, if you ever see him, he can't walk. - Those are, those are sad busts is like. - Right. - They're not. - They're not. - They're not. - They're a Brian. - Right. - And that's a different story. But no, Andre wants it when you've got all the talent in the world and your body fails. And it's not for lack of effort. And this one, this isn't like, ACL injuries are weird. They really are. Like, and just take great green law into Super Bowl when he blew out his Achilles. He's literally just gonna, I'm gonna run back on the field and snap. It doesn't make any sense. Like, those injuries, you can't predict them. Those are impossible to predict. - No, no, I mean, the only prediction of them now is that they're gonna happen because these guys are so trained and, you know, their bodies are so probably overdeveloped. - Yeah, more wheelchair overdevelopment. And so they're just probably wound a little tighter than they are. But I mean, I blew out my ankle last year. I'm not an athlete anymore. And it's funny. It's just a genetic thing based on how my body is. Like, I have incredibly high arches in my feet. And the tendon I blew out, it's like 90% of the people that blow out that tendon are like only 10% of the population. Like, it's just one of those freak things. And so that's, that happens, you know? So a guy like BJ Oslari, it could just be, you know, a thing where it's just a genetic thing, you know? Hopefully it's not, hopefully, this was just a, you know, a fluke. And he's like Tyrone Matthew or Carson Palmer, or guys that have come back and had not just, you know, good careers, but incredibly successful careers. But as Jess said, like, the unknown with ACL injuries or ACL repairs is just so broad. And, you know, everybody likes to point to and assume like, well, it worked for this guy, you know, this guy came back immediately. It's like, not everybody's the same. And we look at Tyler, right? And we say like, hey, everything he's doing right now, trending in the right direction, that's a good, you know? And I've even said it on the show, like obviously the injury itself is not good, but the resulting, you know, change of mentality and the way that he has embraced the grind from it has been, you know, a positive in this situation. But we still don't know if it means that like, he's going to be able to be a long, successful career. 'Cause I mean, that's the crazy thing about like a guy like Matthew, right? Like this dude blew his ACL out in 2015. He was still one of the best cover safeties in the NFL. - Yeah, and that's after it took a full two years 'cause the Cardinals, I mean, in 2018, they were like, "Mm, yeah, we don't love you anymore." Like you can come back if we kick a pay cut because like 2017, he looks completely average, but he-- - Right, no, we were 100% right, Justin, that's, and so that's just it. Like what would, obviously we wanna see what BJ can do and hope being that he comes back and he's healthy, but the reality is we just, I mean, we just won't know until I guess next year at this point, but they at least have Zaven on the roster, on the team in the lineup for the next three years now, you know, obviously including this year. And that's, you know, that's big because that is a massive question mark still. Like we know they're excited about Zaven. They were extremely excited about BJ Ojilari, but now it's just back to like, let's see. - They're starters or they're starters or? - Zaven Collins and Dennis Gardek, something now, and Gardek in fairness led the team in sacks, six sacks last season, and he is a fantastic player, but at the same time, he is limited in some things. He's not ideal on first and second down. He can do it, he can drop into cupboard, he can do that. But like, he's not the guy you want as your, for me, I want us my third edge guy because he can play, but you don't have to have that necessary for that liability. That leads to the, what we want to talk about now is, will someone step up, who can fill that void in, and looking at what they have, what can they do outside the market? If you just look at on the roster, you've got Gardek, but now you're, if you're expecting him to play 50 to 60% of the snaps, or they go by committee like early last season, which was kind of interesting last year, because before Ojilari was a significant part of the rotation, that's when they had their best pass rushing, they're their best sack production. Zaven got his sacks early. Gardek mostly had his sacks early. Demacagie's four sacks came early in the year. But you could look at those and nobody except for Gardek, had had any sacks over the last six games of the season, even Gardek's, we've joked about that wasn't really a sack. That was Justin Fields running out of bounds for no gain when Gardek was a yard or two away. Like if he goes forward a foot, it's not a sack. But you want, you want, you look at the roster. And there's one player that I think we both look at, and you're like, I wish he could be the guy, because we thought he was going to be that two years ago, and that's Cam Thomas. But both Cam Thomas and Vick Demacagie, Demacagie who really kind of had a fantastic start to last year, Cam was inactive as a healthy scratch the last two of the years. Demacagie was inactive two of the last three games of the year, as they were looking at Tyrek Smith and at BGO Jalari. I mean, Cam Thomas should be the guy that we're looking at, and look at where he's in the depth chart. He's a bubble player right now, and I think he makes the roster. But if BGO Jalari doesn't get up, we don't even know if he makes the team. Yeah, yeah, he's definitely, and you hate saying it in this manner, but he's definitely the biggest benefactor of that injury, because it seems like it's given him new life from being a 5%, 10% type of guy to make this roster. So 50, maybe even higher. So we'll see how it goes. But right now, I mean, this roster in terms of what they are and what they have, you're just looking at guys that desperately need to show us something before we can really have an opinion on the situation. And you said it, man. I mean, the idea that you go in with Zavin Collins and Dennis Garduk as your starters is not, it's not exactly what you want it in year two, right? No, I mean, that's nothing against Dennis. You just don't want, you don't want him to have to be one of your top two. And when you look at the roster and you say, so they have to go outside of your organization. But here's the thing, that's a highly unimpressive group. Like you say, great for Matt and Judon. That's, and Judon haven't issues right now. Judon wants to get paid. He was holding out of training camp, so that's an option. He's also in his 30s. He's coming off the year we only played four games. And yes, he would be expensive now. Is he worth it? I would say he's worth it, especially if you have any hopes. Like if you believe a little bit that this could be a postseason team, you trade a three for him and then you give him heavy guarantees for two year deal and then, you know, if he's productive, he can go get paid again. I don't know if I do anything past two, maybe three years, but I, like, I am okay with him at Judon. But like you said, he does come with the rest. He's an expensive risk. Well, it's exactly like you said, Jess. Like he has to be willing to take that type of contract and be willing to do that. And we just don't know if that's what he's like. I mean, this isn't obviously the Patriots that we grew up with, but it is still, you know, a guy that was built in the Patriot system and Jared Mayo that Judon knows, I'm assuming they actually played together probably, right? Like when did Mayo retire? I would assume that they're pretty close to playing together. But, you know, it's, it is a situation that it just isn't so cut and dry as like, hey, just trade for this guy. But if it's, if it's an option, I would agree with you. I think that's something that you have to explore at least to see if like you can do anything. I mean, yeah, because, because the pre-agent options, let's be honest. Now, they did make one move. They signed Marquis Haynes. If there were ever a move that wouldn't move the needle, he's a guy that does it. Not that he's about, he's got 14 career sacks. He's 30 years old. Last year, he only played in seven games, had one sack. But in 2022, he played 17 games, had 470 defensive snaps and had five sacks, which kind of matches the type of, say, Dennis Gardek type production. If you, if you had him as that now, would he have more? Could he be, if he came in, get acclimated, can be in that starter role? I'll have you know, he started two games in his entire NFL career. So he's always been a, an off the bench, kind of guy. A rotational pass rusher with 14 career sacks. So I don't think that's a bad move, but it's kind of like getting the 30-year-old version of, what, Victor de McCagie or just, you know, a slightly more accomplished. Right. And like you said, it just doesn't move the needle. I mean, it's not a bad move and it's a depth move, but it's not going to change anything. And, and quite frankly, the fact that he wasn't a guy that they had pursued with BJ Ojallari on the roster is telling that you're like, Oh, we think, or we want to see BJ Ojallari before we bring in a Markey's hand. Right. Like, and so, and that's not a bad thing. Like it's not a bad thing at all. It's just, you know, it just tells you kind of what you need to know about Markey's hands. And again, the names are unimpressive. Like, yes, the one name on here, you're like, yeah, go get him as Janik and Gakwe. He's, he's not quite 30. He's productive. But here's the thing. Have we heard anything about him wanting to be anywhere, anywhere in the West? And he's the type of player. Well, who knows if he even wants to play for the Cardinals? But not just that, Jess. Let me ask you another thing. Why has he never had a second contract after he left Jacksonville? Anyway, literally anywhere. So like, you know, I wrote about it the other day. It's like, maybe he is the perfect, like, one year, like, Oh, Ojallari's hurt. Well, clowny kind of became that, right? Right. Because so talented, but, but maybe, like, I'll say this, the Cardinals are really careful about the guys they bring into this locker room. And if he's a, if he's a good, if he's a great pass rusher, but doesn't have that team over me mentality, I think they're going to rock with. So if you could get 12 sacks, who's a slightly selfish player, who doesn't like who's more me, they would rather have the eight sack team player. If that makes any sense. Yeah, it makes perfect sense. And so, you know, we'll see what happens, man. I mean, this is a big injury. And that's saying something for a guy that's really never done anything, right? Like, this is a big loss because it just is more than anything else. It's what are they going to do? How do they, how do they get out of this and how do they make this work moving forward? Carl Lawson was an absolute bust in New York, Charles Harris, the highest bowser. They all come with injury concerns. Like, if you want, and my Jay Sanders still out there, but he flamed out of here. So it's like, you want the Cardinals to go do something. And really, I guess the only one that sort of makes sense is going to trade for Matt Judon because as we talked about in the off season, the edge class in free agency for the price that it is, is very underwhelming in terms of what you're going to get for the money you're going to have to spend. And so closer to the beginning of the year, you know, yeah, it's, could you go get Justin Houston? I mean, he's ancient, ancient, but if you treat him like Dwight Freeman 2015, so he becomes, and you feel good. And here's the thing, if Houston can produce anything in a limited role, and you feel good about the first and second down play of, of Demikajian and Collins, which I think is a good first and second down base unit. I'm not against that, but everyone wants the Cardinals to do something, but you look at the players available and you're like, right, you're not sure that there's what or if they can do. Yeah, that's it. And so you end up because like, the moves they're making, they're not to replace BJ per say, they are depth behind whoever they're going to put in the lineup instead. Because it's not the, it's not a better option than as Dennis Gardek. He's, he's, there may be like, Mark, he's saying, just probably, yeah, like I said, he's didn't Victor Demikajian, but a little bit older. And then, then you have to maybe hope that that Collins adds like becomes a better pass rusher that Xavier Thomas shows something that Cam Thomas in year two in this defense can show some of the promise he did as a rookie because he's like, feels like he's completely flamed out, right? Right, exactly. And that's kind of how you have to look at it, right? Is that this is a group that they need something, but I don't know if there's actually an answer out there for that something. Coming to next with the Rise of Sea or podcast, Mr. Carlos talk on the web. We have some news about who's playing and who's not playing in the preseason. That's coming to next in Rise of Sea Red. Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest. Life comes at you fast, which is why it's important to find some time to relax a little you time. Enter Chumba Casino with no download required. You can jump on any time anywhere for the chance to redeem some serious prizes. 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We're back on the rise of zero podcast. The best are Cardinals talk on the web. Jonathan Gannon told reporters, media members in attendance practice on Tuesday, that Kyler Murray would not plan the preseason a move that neither Seth nor I is are surprised about a bit. In fact, on our show last week, we said we didn't think he would. Gannon says he likes where he's at and he wants to have the best version of himself. And let's be honest, Kyler, if he was going to play at all, might have played a series or two this week and maybe two or three next week. So for what would come out to 20 game reps, the risk of him getting hurt just didn't, especially when they have they have a joint practice next week where they can get those same kind of solo live game opponent reps without the risk of him getting hit. That's what makes sense to me. It didn't make any sense. And I think that's completely the trend that you have to go across the NFL now, unless you've got a guy that you need to get reps. Kyler doesn't need reps this year in this offense because he had half a season last year. Yeah, and it's one of those situations that as you'll explain shortly, they've got a plan in place of how to get him important game reps in a much more competitive yet somehow safer environment. Yeah, and that's kind of going down the list. We're going to go through both sides of the ball, who we think will play or not. Running back, would you guess if Kyler's not playing. Connor's not playing, is he? No, James Connor can't see the field in there. That doesn't make sense at all. Especially a guy who does get hurt and running back. This is where you give Trey Benson those carries. This is where you get him married to Marry De Marcada. This is where you give Michael Carter those chances because Michael Carter's not making this roster. You give him a chance to make another team. The wide receiver room is interesting because I think Marv needs reps. I don't think he'll play much, but I don't think there's any one in the receiver room. You're just like, no, you don't need to play. I think Marv gets limited reps, like he gets the starter treatment along with Michael Wilson and Greg Dorch. But the rest, I think, will play, I think. Yeah, and it'll be interesting how they decide or how much they decide to deploy Marv. Not just because obviously he needs to get some acquaintance with the NFL game and speed, but also, how do I put this delicately? How much do you want him to have to deal with with Desmond Ritter and Clayton Thune, right? Well, it's true. Well, and also, also this, how much do you want him going against non-starters who are battling for the roster on the other side of the ball? Right, exactly. And it's just, I assume, I wrote today, I think, one, maybe two series in game one. And if anything, he'll do the same in game two, and then obviously he won't be anywhere near the fielding game three. Yeah, offensive line. Well, I think on the tight ends, trade, don't put Trey on the field. Let the other guys, obviously, tip needs the reps. Elijah Higgins, who's one year into playing tight end, needs game reps. And literally, everyone else, they're battling for spots on the roster. I'm guessing no one on the projective starting offensive line will play. I don't think Paris will. I don't think Jonah will. I don't think Will will yell the pro. I don't see him, especially he's just now coming from the injury, and I doubt it at Brown does. So I'm guessing none of the starting line offensive line, because they kind of know who they are. So I'm guessing none of them will play. By the way, we probably need to mention that yelled the pro hole didn't die. So everybody calmed down. I know that the I mean, that's the hard part about training training camp. And you know, our media does a fair job. And you know, I don't hold them exactly responsible. But it does set off a panic, right? Like when a guy gets taken off the field, and even as many times as you say, under his own power, you know, walked off on his own blah, blah, blah. And then he's not there the next day, it's like, it's like, oh, no, oh, no. And so yelled those back. But as just said, like, why? Evan Brown needs the reps on the line. He needs the reps with the guys, like, just leave having Brown in there, let him get some reps at center, let him get some reps at left guard. And the rest of these guys, you know, maybe you can tell me Jonah Williams needs some reps, but I mean, he's a veteran at this point, like that that's why I'm like, they're gonna limit those. And especially the ones they know are their starters. I think they don't need it. And especially, again, they're having two competitive joint practices with the Colts next week, their starters can get those reps. And I think they will get the majority of those reps next week as well. And so that you kind of do that. And then you game plan a little bit for the Colts that way. And you play your backups on the defensive line. I think the only two that won't see action or Justin Jones and Belal Nichols, everyone else I think is on the table. Darius Robinson needs those needs those reps. LJ Collier, it needs those reps. Dante stills needs those reps. And then everyone else behind them need the rest because they need the battle. They need the opportunity to show what they can do. Speaking of Zaven Collins earlier, do you think Zaven sees the field at all? Oh, who I would say he needs him, but I'm, I guess, is. Do you think that you think? I don't think I don't have to be changed. I don't think Zaven or Dennis will play. And then Tysir is probably a no. I would guess I bet Mac plays. I bet Mac plays, especially because here's here's the part that I think here's the little non-secret secret. Based on what I saw on Saturday's practice, we're probably going to see Mac Wilson on the edge quite a bit. And so we're going to see Chris Barns or Owen Papo or when they go to or the three safeties or however they decide to do that, that one of their options is going to be Mac Wilson off the edge who actually played quite well down the stretch, getting a lot of edge reps last year for the Patriots. Right. So yeah, so I think you're, I think you're right. Like the other question you have is like, how do they, how do they disperse these reps in this game? Because as you said, as much as you want these guys to start getting reps, at the same time, we're talking about, you know, guys that have played a lot, guys that have had a lot of success, you know, we know that they're getting into a new system. So that means we want to see something from them, but at the same time, it's like, we've talked about this that depth is still razor thin. Now the high end depth is obviously much, much better. Right, right. But the, yeah, the full depth is just not ideal. So yeah, we'll see kind of how that that plays out. At the defensive backs. I don't think Sean Murphy bun to play Garrett Williams might not play because he's hurt. But after that, and I hope Maxwell comes back because he's been out with an injury, but I wonder if he'll be able to practice on this week to get in the game, start Thomas will play. Their guys are young enough that they can do that. And I think then you won't see Buddha Baker, Jalen Thompson, like I, this is the list of guys in my mind. They're not playing in this game, especially with the joint practice next week. And yeah, why, why even put Buddha and Jalen on the field? Like you, you got rabbit, you got Andre Joshua. And then you've got a bunch of guys that need to earn things, right? Yeah. And so if you take those guys out and you kind of treat it, even that that still gives you plenty of guys to get, you know, you normally play with 47 players and maybe 46 45 get in the game. And so you're still got plenty of guys if you've got, if you've got 15 or 16, you're just saying no, aren't playing. You've still got, you know, 70 that you've got available to play. So you can, you still got reps to do that, even though you're trying to ease them in and trying not to get them hurt. But yeah, I those are the guys I don't expect to see hit the field in the preseason. All of that means, that means we're going to get, we're going to see Trey Benson. We're going to see Marty Mercado. We're going to see a lot of Tony Jones and running back. We're going to see, we're going to see a lot of Andre Bachella. We're going to see these guys, Xavier Weaver is going to get a lot of playing time. So yeah, this is kind of what you want to see, especially the starting jobs is that you get, you have guys play if they're battling for a starting job. But if you, if you know that, I mean, just, let's not, let's not worry about it. Let's not worry about it. It's year two in the system. Yeah. And so this, this year is different. And, and Marv, like, I want him to get reps, but starter reps, like he and Michael Wilson and, and Greg Dorch will get a couple of series and they're like, okay, that looked good. Come on out. And then you give, and then you give, you know, Desmond and Clayton, the, the, the, the back end guys to throw to. And, you know, there, there is this train of thought that you might have even the starting offensive line. Go with series or two for the, like, so that you can see Desmond or Clayton behind the starting line. But even then I, I'm like, no, no, don't do that. That's, that's my idea. Coming to next on the rise of this year podcast. Mr. Carne was talking with one last segment to talk about where to discuss the depth chart, the depth chart and what we're surprised about or not. That's coming to next. And I said, you're right. Hey guys, it is Ryan. I'm not sure if you know this about me, but I'm a bit of a fun fanatic when I can, right? 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Get two cans of a Riley Break Parts Cleaner for just $8, valid in store only at O'Reilly Auto Parts. ♪ Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, Riley ♪ ♪ Auto Parts ♪ We're back on the Rise-Ups here at Podcasts. The Best Art Cardinals talk on the web, and the Cardinals release their first depth chart of the year on Monday with their game release. And I don't know if you would consider any of them a particular surprise other than, you know, for me, the surprises were one that Trey was ahead of Amari. Trim Benson was ahead of D'Amara D'Amara D'Amara Cotto. And then, honestly, none of it surprised me, because I get why D'Amara Cotto is behind Benson, because he's kind of more less backup running back than he is third down back special teams. Yeah, and he seems to be the guy, you know, we talked about it last week, that has really embraced his role. And, you know, since we've gotten on this podcast, Josh Weinfuss tweeted out an interesting anecdote about Zaven Collins, you know, somebody we mentioned earlier, but what they look for, right, and what they want, and just kind of why a guy like Zaven is so important to this team. And you look at the words that Jonathan Gannon talked about, and, you know, he was talking about before he got his fifth year option declined. And, you know, he said, I'm going to be here every day. I'm going to work on my game, blah, blah, blah. And Gannon response was, you know, I appreciate that about him. I really do, because you want guys like that that can put on their blinders and go to work and be team first guys. That's who we want around here. And that kind of, to a tee, just finds Amara Dean Mercado, right? Like, whatever you ask me to do, coach, I'm going to do it. Like, I don't care. I genuinely don't care. I'll just, I'll do it. And, and, you know, again, when we're talking about third, fourth running backs, that's the mentality and the attitude you have to have. And, and you talked about it last week, man, like a guy that wasn't even a starter in college. Like, that's, and he's a lock for the roster. Like the way you that the Gannon talked about him last week, he's a lock for this roster. That's crazy. Right. And again, it just, it tells us everything we need to know about what they're looking for as cliche and silly as it sounds. They're looking for football guys, like guys that care about playing football that all they want to do is play football. And, and that's what these guys, who these guys are and what they want to do. And, and so it makes everything else kind of easy and fall into place. It was, I was interested in seeing, and I know the backups, the starters make sense. But when you go to the back, as to how they guys, they have guys listed, I'm like, you can't trust it all the time. Because like, say you've got the backup center behind yelled a frohold as listed as John Gaines, though we know that the actual backup center is Evan Brown, who's a starter left guard. So they don't list things perfectly like that. And the way they list positions, because you've got like the, well, to be fair, didn't, didn't Jonathan again, he even said, don't pay attention to that. Yeah, he did say that. He did say that on Tuesday. We have to pay attention to any. Here's the thing. Here's this. Here's kind of the secret on the depth chart, because it's not the coaches putting it together. It's the media relations department that put it together. So they see what we see, and maybe get a little input like Mark Dalton might get a little input from Jonathan Ganon, but nothing significant. I did find it interesting that where Zay Jones was listed was the backup slot. Although we all know that he's probably, he is wide receiver four. And you talked about on the last show, he's a perfect fit at all three receiver positions. But I find it interesting that like where he's put at is in fact, at backup slot. Well, and I think it, it goes and speaks to what kind of we've talked about is that he's had an excellent camp. And it's not as cut and dry as like, Oh, Greg Dorche has been here. He's our wide receiver three. It's just that Greg Dorche has outperformed Zay Jones, who's been performing extremely well in his own right. So, you know, it's one of those situations that you're like, this isn't a problem. This is an actual good thing. And again, we talked about it last week. It's, it's not something that we even really discussed last year, because it wasn't something that was real, right? Like, why do you say we're depth? We're like, Oh, gosh, this is bad. And now it's like, hey, we have a guy that we're super comfortable with being our X, our Z or our slot at any point. You know, obviously, ideally, he wouldn't be that. But, you know, if it comes down to a game or two, no big deal. Like, we're fine. Everybody's happy. And so those are those are hard things to quantify, because you rarely, rarely see that. The, the defensive line, the, the three-player starter, the three players listed right behind them. I think that what tells you is that, you know, LJ, call your listed as the backup nose, even though he's not really a nose, but the fact that they put him there ahead of Kaira's Tonga, I think kind of tells you, I think with the defensive line, the depth chart tells me a little bit, because on my last two, um, depth chart on my 53 man predictions, I have those six guys are the guys that are making the roster. And the fact that they kind of, I know that the ball can play nose. And so Roy Lopez continues to be kind of like Lucky Fotu last year. Like surprisingly, he's just there. Lucky, his role grew. And it was, he was just starting nose tackle. And it feels like that, that Roy Lopez has kind of gotten the Lucky Fotu role. And that now Tonga probably is, I'm going to call him, firmly on the bubble, because obviously Darius Robbins is going to make the team. I was a little unsure about LJ Collier as a potential guy. But he wants to be here. He was their best interior rusher last year at the, at this point, that there was a lot of excitement about him that he got done taste stills who, who I think has firmly kind of established himself on the team. Yeah. And I think stills is kind of the perfect example of what we talked about a little bit earlier in that like, I don't know if he's ever going to turn into a, you know, a guy that, that signs a big, you know, $10 million or your contract, all the nickels or Justin Jones, right? But I do think he's a guy that can carve out a career where he's on if a roster is for eight to 10 years and makes, you know, a handsome amount of money over his career, because he's, he has the juice to be a pass rusher. I don't know if he can consistently be an every down player, but that's not a bad thing, right? No. If you're a rotational three to four sack defensive interior guy, you're going to play the NFL for a while. And, you know, I think he's starting to embrace that role. And if he does that, he's a guy that, you know, in, in two years or, you know, after next season, you know, they come to and they say, Hey, here's a two year, you know, $5 million deal. And, and everybody's happy and, and, you know, Joy Joy and all that stuff. And so, but yeah, I think, I think it's those six tongas, the interesting one, if they end up keeping seven, but with again, with that Ojilari injury, it kind of throws a wrench in that because now you might have to keep, you know, seven outside backers, just to, just to give yourself the figure out who it is. Although, the fact that Mack Wilson can play off the edge, Darius Robin can kick outside does give them a little bit. I think that we didn't, we didn't, and honestly, you know what, we didn't mention Darius Robinson. His presence also, I think is helpful. And, and maybe perhaps that is how his role increases a little bit this year is that you see him kicking outside more than we would have anticipated him in his rookie season. Right. So it'll be interesting. But I think for, for now you have a really, you know, you have a, you have a decent group that needs a little, a little help. But if, if you can, if Darius Robinson turns into what they are hopeful he can be, you could be looking at something that's very, very successful moving forward. Yeah. Yeah. At quarterback, like inside linebacker, nothing surprising there. It's Kaiser Mack, back behind him is Chris Barnzo and Papo. And that's fine, whatever. Outside linebacker, the things I take away, Victor Dina Keiji is listed ahead of Cameron Thomas. You know, Dennis Gardax up front. And you've got Jesse Lickett ahead of Xavier Thomas. I'm real interested to see how that plays out. I know Thomas is, you know, he's a rookie, the day three rookie at that. So I'm not looking too deep in that. The only, the only one I look I'm like, Vic over Cam. I'm like, okay, that's, that's what I see in that because they both same play that same position. I would, I would say that Cam is like, if you're listing them, like their top four is even Dennis, Vic and Cam before you go to Leteketa, that said, the fact that Vic is ahead of Cam, it still says a lot to me. Right. Right. Exactly. At cornerback, Starling Thomas is listed ahead of Max Melton as a starter at cornerback. This is kind of how it's been in training camp, though, you know, early in camp, Max Melton before he got hurt, he was getting first team reps. So he and Star were, were, were alternating, or sharing first team red. Sean Murphy, Bunting, Garrett Williams, Kitrel Clark, ahead of Elijah Jones, third round pick. You got Devod Wilson listed as, as Williams backup in the slot. And Jayden Davis behind him, not that I expect him to do even be a consideration. But Kitrel Clark, ahead of Elijah Jones, that tells me something right now. And we, we both know that cornerback room is going to be interesting because how many are they going to keep? Because if they keep six, you're shorting another position somewhere. And if they keep six, does that mean, like, who's out? Does, do you keep Bobby Price for special teams or does Kitrel stay? Because Star Thomas really kind of looks like he's got the spot unless, unless he's just Christian Matthew again, which I don't think he is. Right, exactly. At safety, nothing surprising. Their rabbit and Andre Sachery are the two backups behind Jalen and Buddha. After that, it doesn't really matter. Although interesting, Darren Hall, who's listed on the roster as a cornerback is listed at safety. And that, I will say this when I was back in OTAs and mini camp, that's where I saw him working. He wasn't working with the corners. He was working with the safety, we still listed as a corner on the roster. As the return specialists, Dorech and DJ Dallas are both listed as the co number ones with Amari de Mercado and Chris Moore behind them at kick return and Xavier Weaver, the undrafted rookie receiver listed as the backup punt returner. So we'll see how that goes. I do fully anticipate DJ Dallas will have a prominent role in the because Dorech especially is going to play. I think it'll end up being definitely DJ Dallas plus another player on the kickoff skip to have two back there. And then I'm unsure whether it will be Dorech or DJ as the punter turner. And maybe if they keep six receivers, that's how Weaver makes his spot on the roster is that, okay, you can be punt guy. Right, exactly. And other than that, I think that'll kind of wrap up this edition of the show. Seth and I will probably sit tight on a show until after the preseason opener, until next week, and we'll probably kick into the two shows a week for us. In the meantime, we will have more from, we will have more from Howard Ballzer this week. We'll see about next week with the, but we've got more from Howard this week next week. We'll be back. And after that, we're getting close to regular season. That wraps up this edition of the show that Seth Cox, I'm Jess Root. Thanks for listening as always. We'll be back again soon. It's time for today's Lucky Land horoscope with Victoria Cash. Life's gotten mundane, so shake up the daily routine and be adventurous with a trip to Lucky Land. You know what they say, your chance to win starts with a spin. So go to luckylandslots.com to play over a hundred social casino style games for free for your chance to redeem some serious prizes. Get lucky today at luckylandslots.com. No purchase necessary. BGW Group void were prohibited by law 18 plus terms of condition supply. Save on a Riley Break Parts Cleaner. Get two cans of a Riley Break Parts Cleaner for just $8 valid in store only at O'Reilly Auto Parts. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, Riley Auto Parts. Thanks for listening to the latest edition of the Rise Up C Red podcast. Listen to previous episodes and subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher Radio, Audio Boom, or many other podcast platforms so shows are delivered directly to your mobile device. Please give the show a five star rating and always support the sponsors who support the show. We'll be back soon for the best hour of Cardinals Talk on the web. Rise Up Red Sea, Be Red Sea Red, and of course Rise Up Sea Red. Be Red Sea Red Sea Red Sea Red Sea Red Sea Red Sea Red Sea Red Sea Red Sea Red Sea Red Sea Red Sea. It is Ryan Seacrest here. Everybody needs some variety in life. That's what I love about Chumba Casino. They know how to keep things fresh and exciting. All their games are free to play. Like spin slots, bingo and solitaire. 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