Only Murders in my Mind
Episode 28 Breaking the Rules: Inside the World of Amateur Sleuth
[Music] Welcome to Only Murders in My Mind. A random thought production. Hi, I'm Carol Bissett, a crime writer. And I invite you with my co-presenters, Liz Hedgecock and Mike Jackson, each week to our conversations on all things murderous. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Only Murders in My Mind. Welcome as usual, we're so glad you're listening in. And as always, I've got Liz Hedgecock. Hello, I'm Mike Jackson. Good afternoon. Yeah, with our thoughts, our discussions, sometimes we do go a little bit, you know, off-peast. I don't know what you mean. No. And my producer did point out that last week's episode, our, it's information we have used before. And this will happen. We will be bringing things in on a regular basis that we perhaps mentioned before. So I do apologise if you've found that we're repeating ourselves. And it's tough to usually get the front of our minds and we'll say it. So we'll get that out of the way. And we're going to talk about what most of the detectives that we love to read and look at and see on television and films are amateur sleuths, aren't they? They tend to be. We do have detective series work now where there are a team of detectives. But I think if we go back to the ones we love and know, most of them have not got a qualification or a PI license. They do their own thing. Would you agree with that? Because if they've got a PI license, if they've got a private detectives license, they're not amateur are they anymore? Not really. And usually if they do have them, they've got some sort of police. Train. Police detective. Yeah. They've got a rule book they're supposed to stick to as well. And they are encouraged to go on courses and pass certifications and all that sort of thing. And people that are in protection that do a lot of protection for dignitaries and things like that privately. I mean, that's sort of the level of together, isn't it? I'm getting back into where my father came out. Sorry. My impression of amateur sleuths, if I think of amateur sleuths, I tend almost to veer towards cozy mysteries, which I know is Lizzie's. This is expertise. But that's what you'd expect almost to find them in a cozy mystery genre. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. The kind of classic set up for a cozy mystery is, you know, usually a female detective, quite often older and retired or, you know, anyway, has time on their hands. It could be, you know, kids are up and grown or newly divorced and moved to find a new life or whatever. You know, quite often they have a small, you know, attractive, seeming business that they can be busy with, like a cupcake shop or a tea shop or a whatever or an art gallery or something like that. So something they can, you know, leave in charge of someone at recurrence was a good dash off and do a bit sleuthing. Yeah. And usually, yeah, they're just inquisitive. It's interesting you said about the tea shops because strangely enough, my, my team known the NHS is very small, very small. It's that she's been killing them. Don't you, do you? I can't say anything. Sorry. Sorry, NHS. They're small and perfectly fond, but two of the ladies both in past lives have had tea shops. Oh. One in France. Right. Which I was absolutely fascinated about and the other one in the northwest, which you just before COVID. Oh. Yeah, exactly. Oh, yes. So, yeah. So it's not unusual to have a tea shop, you know, and be a female. I suppose, but it is, you know, it's quite a thing. I mean, if you look on Amazon, then there are three categories for cozy mysteries. So you can have like animal cozies, you can have culinary cozies or you can have crafts and hobby cozies. Right. So this is how very, you know, niche it can get sliced right down into individual. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's, you know, cozies with cats. Cozies talking cats. Cozies where cats are the detectives. You name it. There's probably a cozy series about it. But yeah, I mean, Amazon, it's just spans a whole load of. It does. It goes much wider than I'd ever realized, actually. Yeah. I think of the, the usual things, you know, Poiro Sherlock. Yeah. Yeah. And I suppose the thing with Poiro is he's a retired police officer. So yes, he sort of police adjacent Sherlock. I mean, he's not an amateur. He does get paid. Yeah. Although, you know, don't mention money because we're gentlemen. Yes, but he's a consultant, isn't he? Yeah, but he really does. Okay. Yeah, he does. And the couple is an obvious one. Yes. You know, she's an amateur slew. Yes. Really in that sort of cozy mystery. She lives in a quaint village. Yep. She's got knitting. Knitting. I don't think I'd ever want to go on holiday with her because somebody will get murdered wherever she is. Yeah. Wow. And the knitting, I got knitting needles for my birthday. Thank you, Daniel. And they are deadly. They're, they're great, big, long metal things you can imagine. I mean, I have to use one in one of the books. You just stick it in between somebody's ribs. Oh. Stick it in the area. Oh, no. Ah. Oh, no. I don't remember. It seemed to be moving away from amateur sleuth. Sorry. I was just going to say, um, I went to the cinema and they were, they were re-showing the mummy from 1999 and the whole mummification process. Oh, yeah. Taking the brains out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it was fantastic on the big screen. With a crocheting. Yeah. See, this is, this is what always amazes me when the three of us get together. It's how we can move from this marble knitting to gouging people's inn. See, this is why hobby cozies are so important because there's all sorts of implements that you can kill people with. I was having a look though at some other sort of famous amateur sleuths. Oh, yes. Jessica Fletcher. Oh, yeah. Mm. Just like yourself. And then she goes off writing murders. Yes, right. Yeah. Again, I'm getting sort of drawn into people trying to expect it to solve them. And one of my favourite is brother Catboy. Alice Peters. Oh, yes. Yeah. Um. You often get ministers of cloth and there's a lot of canon Clement now, isn't there? Richard Coles is negative. Yeah. Father Brown. Father Brown. Father Brown. Yeah. Well, maybe it's because, you know, I'm wondering, actually, when's behind it all? Because all these priests who could be, you know, clearing up all the crimes and doing her job. She's got a safeguard opposition. Could be that could be true. Yeah. Not saying. Shop reveal in the last book of the series. When you think all those people mentioned, you know, Father Brown, Miss Marl Paul, Catfire, they're all people watches, aren't they? Yes. You know, this is. But are you mate? I mean, you're a writer. Aren't you a people? You're a coffee shop listener. I'm a coffee shop listener. Yeah, I do. I do enjoy listening and watching people. Yeah. I mean, I always have stories. I see something going on. I love being in London for that reason because obviously all life is there. You know, it's like the Star Wars. I can't eat enough and we were in a restaurant with the family and these two gentlemen came in who were obviously a couple. And they met this lady who only one of them knew. I'm going to be daughter. She's the surrogate. That's why they're meeting and she's going off. For goodness sake. Just shut up. But you see, there's always a backstory with me. And sometimes if somebody looks dodgy, it's like, they're plotting something. Yeah. They're probably wondering what's happened in account. That's all it is. Yeah, probably. But as I say, I was in one of the first books I wrote for the Warring Detective. I got the idea from being in a coffee shop in W.H. Smith's in Oxford Street. And there was some high level intense conversation going on between two people, which I couldn't quite hear. You always feel like it's going up. So could you speak up a bit? Yes. Can't quite hear you. So that's where we got the idea for that. So you do pick up ideas. Liz, you're a people watcher. I can be. Yes. Yeah. But not, you wouldn't dedicate her analysis just sitting in a cafe. Probably not. Yeah. If I'm somewhere and I hear something, yeah, I probably will tune into it. So when we're at the art preview, I overheard a fantastic conversation that two women were having about one of the paintings. Oh, really? Yes. And, you know, where they would think about putting it and all of that sort of thing. And that was great. Could you get in a good way? Oh, yeah. No, no, but in a good way. No, we're discussing where it might possibly go. Oh, right. So, yes, it was, oh, it was fabulous. Yeah. Being on the wrong side of some conversations as well. You know, I was on the top of a bus once. I want time ago in my home town of Warrington and two young ladies were discussing a forthcoming marriage of one of them. And she said, "You sure you're not making a mistake?" And she went, "No. Anywhere can I just get too fast?" Oh. And that's how she was going into her married life, you know. Oh, wow. And I was sat there cringing. Wow. But there are some people. I mean, I always think of the late Victoria Wood. When you see some of the comedy stuff that she wrote about, like, the ladies and whatever. You can just picture her being somewhere, seeing something happen that's made her smile. And she thought, "So, how can I take this and just stretch it to make it even more ludicrous and more funny?" You know. I can imagine that she was a great watcher of people listening. Yes. An observation of a comic. There's a Peter K as well. You just talked about life. Yes. I wonder if as writers we get grown towards amateur detectives because they're people watchers like we are. Or we should have kinship with them. Yes. I think so. Because we want to get inside the minds, don't we? We want to know what they're seeing and if it's interesting, et cetera. And also, you maybe feel like, "I could do that. I could be that. I'd have seen that." Or, "I wouldn't have done it like that." Oh, absolutely. Yeah. You get to put yourself into the story, perhaps. I think we all like to think that we're smart like that and we could solve things. Yes. Somebody said to me, "Are you one of the characters out of your book?" And I said, "I put it one of those that stays alive." Yeah. But when and Cassie are the main characters, and I don't think I'm like either often. So no, no. I'm probably more like Colin and he's a bloke. I can see a bit of winning. Yeah. Yeah, maybe. Because in some of the other books, I am a character in the book and I know I am. And I know I am. You know? So. Now, you write some amateur sleuths, don't you? Oh, I don't know. You've got a couple of series. How many would you say a amateur sleuths? I know two. I don't think. Um, Pippa Parker. Yeah. She's an amateur sleuth. Um, Castro Fleet. Yes. There amateur sleuths. Uh, Fi and Jade Booker and Fitch. Yes. There amateur sleuths. Um, that's probably about it. And when she goes to Jack in Sherlock and Jack and she's definitely got a bit of, you know, mystery solving in her. Yeah. DNA. What about the magic book? Yeah. Definitely. I mean, yeah. Gemma is. Investigating. She is investigating. Raphael's a funny, a funny character in the, he's sort of amateur and kind of professional, but not a sleuth at the same time. I mean, Raphael comes out with them, I mean, the clothes he wears for a start, you know, and he comes out with some amazing things, doesn't he? But, you know, to him it's just like, every day, you know, and everybody else would go, what? Yeah. Again, please. Yeah. So, so do you think it is almost a prerequisite of cozy mystery writers that there's going to be an amateur sleuth in there? Pretty much. Yeah. I suppose the thing is you don't want to get necessarily tangled up with police procedure. No. And I think part of the charm of it is they can do things their own way and maybe they get a helping hand from the police. Yeah. Or maybe they don't. Maybe they're actively told, do not get involved. And of course they do because they're nosy. Yeah. Yeah. It makes sense, doesn't it? Because mid-summer would be a very boring place if it wasn't for the murders. Mmm. It might be a nice place to live there. Would you want to read about it? Mmm. Yeah. That's another question altogether. I mean, if you take your pipper at the play group. Yes. You know, that would, there'd be no story there. It was just about pipper at the play group. No, there wouldn't be much of a story. You know, I mean, she killed halfway through. Yeah. And that's the thing that kind of pulls her into the group pulls. Yeah. The thing is she gets involved because she's one of the people who was there. So she is a suspect like everybody else. So, yeah. So in a sense, she has to get pulled into it. And that is part of the challenge. You know, amateur sleuths. You know, there's generally police about. So it's like, why don't they just leave it to the police? And there's got to be a reason why they get into it. I mean, Jaden, they're both on the boat when the first murder victim drops dead, kills over. So it's like, well, obviously, you know, there's, there's some implication there. You know, not saying necessarily there, but you were there. So, you know, you're automatically a person of interest, let's say. So they've got to get into it clear their names. I was going to say in the apple to raisin boots. She does end up being a qualified detective with the first lot. She's being told constantly by the police, not to interfere. And the reason that they let her get away with things is because she can go and do things they can't. Yeah. She will break into a house and look for clues. And I think that's quite a common thread with amateur sleuths. Because they're freer. Yes. They have different powers because the police can go in and they can search places and they can do this and they can do that by the law. But there's lots that they can't do. Yeah. But at the same time, some of the things that amateur sleuths do, like maybe breaking into a house because the police can't. Probably it's something that the normal person wouldn't do it. No, no. You know, so that there has to be that little bit of, they've got to be different. Yeah. Well, it's also that thing of they're not going in with the uniform on. Yes. You know, they're not overtly, they don't know, screaming, "I want to know all about you and how you got involved in this." Taser, taser, taser. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. 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No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. 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No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. So, yes. So, until next time, thank you for listening. You have been listening to Only Murders in My Mind. A random thought production produced by John Bissett. The music in peril was composed and recorded by OM Studio Strings. [MUSIC] [BLANK_AUDIO]