A fun conversation about some very special wines
Adventures Of A Black Belt Sommelier
A conversation about wine with a TV star, part 2
I'll just do it as part one and part two. So I think as this project, and I'm sorry that this has become a little difficult. I apologize. I thought I knew what I was doing. I've only done about 200 Zoom wine tasting site. You'd think I'd be competent by now, but I think you know better. There's always a challenge. You know, this project that you took on of revitalizing the Madera wine industry, you did way too good a job. You know, at the wild boar, in the early 90s, we would have these tasting menus, and there was always a fresh foie gras course, usually with some dark fruit or some kind, you know, some figs or prunes or something. And I could serve vintage Madera from the 19th century that I paid $50 a bottle for. And now those wines are, what, $1,000 a bottle or something, because there's none left, because you sold them all. Well, yeah. So we're just going back before the reintroduction of Madera. I said, basically, other than Darrel Corti, there was no Madera in the U.S. market. There were two exceptions that I knew of. One was Burns Steakhouse in Florida, where Burns had bought a lot of old Madera's in auctions, a Hubeine auction. So that's all you can do me a favorite. Could you talk a little bit louder? Because I've got my microphone up as loud as it'll go, and I can can't really hear you. Okay. Can you hear me now? Perfect. Thank you. Okay. So there were a couple of exceptions apart from the Darrel Corti's Corti brothers and Sacramento, who did sell a brand called Abudurum. But there was also two exceptions. One was Burns Steakhouse in Florida, Tampa, Florida, who Burns had bought a lot of old Madera's at Hubeine auctions. So you could buy Madera at that restaurant. And then in San Francisco, there was a restaurant called Masses, and they gave a choice of, with the foie gras, kind of like you did at the wild boar, but they gave a choice of Chateu-e-Cam or vintage old vintage Madera to go with the foie gras. So just like you did, and foie gras in Madera is, you know, the greatest pairing of all for foie gras, which reminds me of another funny story about Julia Child. When I was running the Food and Wine Classic, I had reserved tastings in Aspen. I asked Julia Child to join a Madera panel tasting, and I had Robert Parker, who, you know, about a wine writer and Julia Child on this panel. And right before the tasting, Julia said to me, bananas. You've got to have bananas. So I went to Bobby Stuckey, who was then the wine manager, the little Nell, and said, "We've got to have bananas, Julia Child wants bananas." And so he actually went to a shop and bought some bananas and chopped them up and put them in front of all the tasters in the room. And at the end of the tasting, one of the tasters put up their hand and said, "Can I ask a question?" I said, "Of course." And he said, "Why do we have bananas in front of us?" And I said, "Oh, Julia, can you tell them why you wanted bananas at the tasting?" And she said, "Oh, dear, I can't remember." It was very funny. That's a great story. Thank you for that. You know, my brother's partners with Bobby in his restaurant in Boulder. Oh, really? I didn't know that. He celebrated their 20th anniversary, I think. It's a fabulous restaurant. Yeah, I think the 20th anniversary was actually last week, or maybe -- yeah. I saw Bobby in June, and he had -- yeah, he's a great guy. He's one of the most brilliant restaurateurs, and he stuck it out for 20 years going into his restaurant every day. And he was telling us a secret of surviving that long, and he's a family man. He doesn't play all night long with the staff and drink and do drugs. He's a very straight-laced restaurateur, and he's the most professional of them all. You know, he has that line of wines called "Scarpeda," and they're enormously popular around the country. You know, I think every -- every so many a in the country serves "Scarpeda." But I don't think -- I mean, in the wines, they're nice wines, but I don't think that they're so popular because of the wines. I think they're that popular because everybody loves Bobby so much. Well, you know, I'm a professional wine person. I should be more knowledgeable, perhaps, but I have had that wine and seen it, but I had no idea it was Bobby Succes, so I don't think it's necessarily because of him, because I think -- You know, you mentioned -- you mentioned Madeira in "Fwagra," and so turned in "Fwagra," I should have done it again most famously. You know, I think, you know, there's two main ways that "Fwagra" is prepared and served. One is the torsion, which is kind of a mousse made into a log shape, and the other way, it's just a slice of "Fwagra" sauteed lightly and usually serve with -- usually like figs or prunes or something. So turned is not really good with that preparation. It's a knee-jerk thing. It's a default thing that you serve saute with "Fwagra," but if the "Fwagra" is fresh "Fwagra" and sauteed and served with figs or prunes or something like that, so turned is really not the best thing. Madeira really is the best thing. Yeah, and that's the way I like to drink "E" to "Fwagra" is like that. But the other great thing about Madeira, people -- you know, it is the greatest dessert wine. And in fact, it is the probably the only dessert wine. And I say that because dessert wines are thought off by people as wines which go with desserts. Now, most dessert wines are sweet and they have a sweet finish. So as soon as you pair them with a dessert, it cuts the sweetness of the wine. It makes a wine, tastes dry, kills wine. Madeira is a sweet wine which has a dry finish. So when you pair it with dessert, the sweetness of dessert doesn't impact the finish of the wine because the finished wine is already dry. So it actually goes well with the dessert. And of course, it can be dessert on its own, but it is the only wine really that goes well with almost any dessert. Even citrus, you could put it with -- there are two great things about Madeira. One is the searing acidity is the hallmark of great Madeira, as I mentioned in that video, CBS, I'm sorry, morning video. The sweetness -- the acidity is the key. And it's such high acidity. I can sometimes tell -- do wine dinners and tell the chef to bring out a little bowl of saucer of balsamic vinegar and some bread. And I tell people to dunk the bread into the balsamic vinegar and have a bite and then have a Madeira. That doesn't even kill wine. So you can put it with citrus wines. And then because of that dry finish, you can put it with sweet foods. You can put it with citrus food and sweet foods. I think Momsie or Boile Madeira is the best thing with creme brulee. Absolutely. A turn tastes too much like creme brulee. It doesn't really work. It's like a creamy chardonnay with creme sauce. It doesn't. They're too similar. Also, Americans like to have cheese before dinner, which is strange in England and France. But if you're having cheese before dinner, a drier Madeira, like a Cercile or maybe a Vadillio, worked very well. I mean, white wines in general go better with cheese and reds. But Madeira goes fantastically with cheese. Evan Goldstein told us in a class on Madeira once that Madeira was discovered by a Portuguese navigator named Zarco the cross-eyed. And that when he discovered the island, they tried to get off the boats and a vegetation was so intense that there was no place for them to thisten bark. So he said he tried to clear out a space by setting on fire in the island burned for seven years and all the vegetation burned to the ground. Is that story true or is that heaven being heaven? It's a legendary story that is supposedly true. You know, I wasn't there, I don't know. But yeah, it's said to be true. So, and Madeira, actually, the word Madeira means wood-witted land, land with wood. So, yeah, so they couldn't cut down trees to make clearing. It was just too dense, so they burnt it. But the ash helped create a nice soil on this volcanic island. And yeah, and there were some other very historic things, which I've suggested. This is my only theory. I don't know if it's possible. But I've been saying that Madeira is America's very first tax loophole. The reason I say that is because when the king said taxation without representation, you know, during times of taxation without representation, the king drew a big circle around Europe and said everything going to America from here must be taxed. But he forgot that the island of Madeira is off the coast of Morocco, so really closer to Africa. And all the ships used to stop there. And because it wasn't within that circle, it wasn't, the wine wasn't taxed. So, it became America's first tax loophole, which is kind of fun. Well, that's my theory anyway. And the declaration of independence was toasted with Madeira, right? Yes, as was the Constitution. And George Washington drank a pint every day for dinner. In the CBS show, the host said that he drank pints of Madeira every day. Well, it's actually a pint every day for dinner. I'm not sure it was how many pints a day it was. But quite possibly many pints because back in those days, you know, the sailors were given gallons of rum to drink. And everyone in America drank Madeira because Madeira is the one wine which survived the voyage really well. In fact, it improved it because they used the wine as ballast in the bottom in the holds of the ships. And these holds got super warm like saunas and would warm the wine. And so to this day, we still replicate that process by heating the Madeira to 113 degrees Fahrenheit, around about 55 Celsius. And that creates Madeira and the high acidity protected it. So the wine, even though it was heated, it changed but didn't spoil. It became a magical wine that, and then back in those days and days of our founding fathers, the water was too dangerous to drink. You had cholera and all sorts of things which would pick up from drinking water in those days. So wine and beer were the drinks, even children were drinking wine and beer at a very young age. Kind of like I was, but that's a different reason. As you did, you started drinking. Your parents shared wine with you when you were like seven, right? Well, I drank wine every day from the age of seven when I was at home. When I was at boarding school, I was deprived of that joy. But yeah, I mean, they would give us wine every day, but we would also have a orange juice or bribing or whatever else we wanted. But they always gave up. He made sure that we tasted every wine, at least. And so I was drinking wine every day from the age of seven. Yes. Well, I think it's time to wrap this up. It's been fantastic. As it always is talking to you, I'm considered an honor to call you a friend. And I was sure excited to see you on the CBS Morning News Sunday. Well, Saturday, Saturday. Saturday. Yeah. Well, it was, it was, it was, I always loved to end you. You and I've known each other a long time. I can't remember what year we actually met, but it was a, I certainly did an event for you at the wild boar and then other events for you at your prep, subsequent places and always, always great fun. Well, we met. It's, that's the great story. Your father wrote me a letter at the wild boar saying, I'm surprised you're coding my book on your wine list without asking my permission and I, you know, I had to change my underwear because your father was upset with me. And, and I wrote him back and said, do you want me to stop doing that? And he wrote me back and I said, you know, I just, he just, I just would like to have a copy of the wine list. So I had one bound special with his name embossed in gold and sent it off to him. And then a few months later, I was in New York for the wine experience. I was one of the sommeliers at the New York Wine Experience. And I was walking through the lobby of the Marriott Marquis and he was there. And I introduced myself, he didn't know, know me from Adam. But I introduced myself and he invited me to have a glass of sherry with him, which is. You know, again, I, about what my pants when Michael Broadbent asked me to have a glass of sherry with him and then you joined us and that's, that's when we met but, you know, we knew each other through Vicki Turner to in Nashville and. Yeah. I don't think you were there at the Chateau Musard dinner at the wild boar. Um, Serge Hochar was, but I don't remember. Do you remember that? Well, what year was that because the, well, the, the distributor for your wines and in Knoxville went out of business. And I guess Vicki found a lot of old bandages of Chateau Musard in the warehouse. And she asked me if we would like to have a dinner at the, if my wine store, we would like to have a dinner with these old bottles of Chateau Musard at the wild boar. And we did and Serge Hochar came and hosted the event with us. And it was, you know, we sold out, we sold every bottle of those old bandages of Musard at that dinner. Yeah, I traveled a lot with some. So she was great, great friend of mine. He's like my second father to me, but, um, but he was in America so often that frequently I would send one of my employees to accompany him on, on the trips because it was just. Because it was just too much. I mean, it's the famous story that you tasted Chateau Musard at the, I guess at Venexpo, and you were young and you went to your father set up the greatest wine in the world. No, so Bristol Wine Fair in 1979, when the war in Lebanon was too severe and he couldn't sell his wines lately. So he went to England with the goal of meeting my father at the Bristol Wine Fair and went up to him and, and. And gave my father a glass of the, of, um, I think it might have been a wine. Musard from the 60s, whatever it was he, he gave my father a glass shattered. My father immediately came over to me. I was probably one of 16 or 16 of time and, and said, well, he tastes this and I tasted it immediately said that's the best one I've ever had in my life. And what makes that statement have any significance is because in those days our house wines at home were 1945s for those or 1961 borders. So, for me to say, this shadowing is our best wine I've ever had. And I saw this all my favorite wine. So after that, my father that year declared it the discovery of a year at Bristol Wine Fair and then he, he wrote about it in decanter and then Serge became the first decanter winemaker of a year or personal of a year. But decanter and then they subsequently did a person of a year every year but Serge was a catalyst for that. That's a great wine anyone who's not had shut him is our highly recommend it was fantastic. Well, you know the great, but my favorite wines are wines that can't be anything else. Right. When you taste Kool-Aid or so on, it can't be anything else. Absolutely. When you taste shut on the sword, it can't be anything else. You can't possibly confuse it for great bordeaux, great burgundy, Rome, you know, Rome. It is what it is, but there was a tasting group in Maryland that did tastings every week and blind tastings. And one week they did a bordeaux tasting, one week next week they did a burgundy tasting. The one guy sneaked shut in Missouri, Missouri into those tastings, all three of them lined. And each week they voted shut in Missouri, the top wine of the tasting, and they didn't recognize, they didn't know it wasn't the wine of the region. And the shut in Missouri can blend in with other wines and, but be considered the top. And the funny thing is then they banned shut in Missouri from future tastings because they were embarrassed. It was the star of every tasting and, you know, the, do you know the Chateau Reignac story? No, have you tasted Chateau Reignac? Yes. So this restaurant in Paris named, I think it's called Laurent, had a tasting, a horizontal tasting of, I believe this 2003 vintage in maybe 2006 or 2007. And all the, all the best, all the great bordeaux, all of them, all the first growths and all the others, that's ruse, chevel blanc, lapan, all the first growths, you know, once you lose all the, you know, all the ones you named the top 23 bordeaux chateaus that you would name, you would name them. You know, you, I think you're more expert on bordeaux than you are in the darrow but anyway. And then they vote and they, they had all these great European journalists, wine journalists, and so mayonnaise and restaurant owners. Michelle Bataan was there. You know, Michelle Roland was there, and they voted. And the winner was shut to chevel blanc, but the second place was Chateau Reignac, which at the time sold for $30 a bottle, retail for $30 a bottle. Of course, all the other wines were like $700 $800. But Reignac was the number two wine in that, in that event. It's on, you can see it on YouTube, it's a, it's a really fascinating thing because they talk about, you know, they talk about all the other wines, you know, and, and they pretty much this all the other one. Except except chevel blanc and think how flawed Patrice is. Of course, Patrice almost always is flawed it just isn't incredible in spite of it's flawed. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you, sir. I appreciate the time. You're a gentleman and a scholar and, and I always cherish our time's talking. and thank you, me too, and we'll see you soon. - Thanks.